Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Sat, 07 Aug 2010 18:13:18 -0600, Kevin Atkinson wrote: On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Paul Johnson wrote: On Tue, 03 Aug 2010 23:32:54 -0600, Kevin Atkinson wrote: Rather than United Stated Highway 29 Frontage Road just U.S. 29 Frontage Road or maybe US 29 Frontage Road. Why. Because no will say the formal out load. Rather than Interstate 95 Frontage Road, just I-95 Frontage Road. Why? Even though some will say the formal, most just say the letter I. You can do this in the renderer or text-to-speech system if you use the unabridged form. Hu? Can you please elaborate? Rather than tagging for the renderer, change the renderer for the data, so when it sees, say, Interstate xxx, it abbreviates it to your liking. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Tue, 03 Aug 2010 23:32:54 -0600, Kevin Atkinson wrote: Rather than United Stated Highway 29 Frontage Road just U.S. 29 Frontage Road or maybe US 29 Frontage Road. Why. Because no will say the formal out load. Rather than Interstate 95 Frontage Road, just I-95 Frontage Road. Why? Even though some will say the formal, most just say the letter I. You can do this in the renderer or text-to-speech system if you use the unabridged form. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Sat, 7 Aug 2010, Paul Johnson wrote: On Tue, 03 Aug 2010 23:32:54 -0600, Kevin Atkinson wrote: Rather than United Stated Highway 29 Frontage Road just U.S. 29 Frontage Road or maybe US 29 Frontage Road. Why. Because no will say the formal out load. Rather than Interstate 95 Frontage Road, just I-95 Frontage Road. Why? Even though some will say the formal, most just say the letter I. You can do this in the renderer or text-to-speech system if you use the unabridged form. Hu? Can you please elaborate? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:56:51 -0700, Alan Mintz wrote: Yes. Last time, a couple of us (or maybe just me - I forget) argued that it was OK to use common abbreviations for some well-known street types - at least St, Ave, Blvd, Pl, etc. - but the opposition was significant, and no change could be agreed upon. (OT - I wish that recognition of similar opposition in the tiger tag removal were given the same weight) On the other hand, it's easier to handle non-abbreviated words in an automated fashion and the general global consensus has been for a long time now that abbreviations complicate things unnecessarily. Meanwhile, it has been observed on more than one occasion that the quality of the data imported by TIGER is nearly or entirely worse than a blank map. Or do people here really think everything should be expand to the fullest. Trying to keep the discussion focused, I didn't write about all the places where abbreviations _are_ actually being widely used, theoretically against policy, like road networks, bike networks, pretty much any import with its own namespace, hgv, psv, source, etc. Because in the cases key names, the meaning is unique and unambiguous, and in the case of network symbols, closely following national or international standards for those symbols. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Wed, 04 Aug 2010 00:04:31 -0600, Kevin Atkinson wrote: Since when does a frontage road get a Highway shield? There's some special cases in Oregon where I 84 and US 30 are multiplexed. US 30 takes the frontage in every city except Portland, Gresham, Wood Village and Troutdale. Granted, this isn't normal, but it's an example of where it might happen. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Wed, 04 Aug 2010 08:09:10 -0400, Richard Welty wrote: On 8/4/10 7:45 AM, Richard Weait wrote: North Service Road and South Service Road. Romantic names, I know. Are these similar to what you are calling frontage roads? http://www.openstreetmap.org/? lat=43.58872lon=-79.57644zoom=17layers=M i certainly would call those frontage roads. Perhaps frontage roads are an edge case that have been dealt with in another jurisdiction. Are there suggestions from tagging, or talk? if the frontage roads have signs (some do, some don't) the name should be from the sign. otherwise, i'd go with local usage. some places use Service Road, others use Frontage Road, and i'm sure there are other usages. If there is no name, don't tag it with a name= tag. If it's known by the locals by a certain name, then loc_name= would be appropriate, even if no name= tag is used. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:42:52 -0700, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: I think typically this isn't part of a name at all. Are people using it in an address for mailing? how is it written in official records? how would anyone do a search for a street? there are many corner cases so there is no simple yes or no I might be special, but I do not use abbreviations at all when writing addresses. Removes all ambiguity, especially given the number of times I've had my mail get returned as undeliverable because some dumbass addressed it to Portland, AR instead of Portland, OR. If they hadn't used the abbreviation, that wouldn't have happened... ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
At 2010-08-07 12:59, Paul Johnson wrote: Meanwhile, it has been observed on more than one occasion that the quality of the data imported by TIGER is nearly or entirely worse than a blank map. People can observe all they want - it doesn't make them right, and this particular observation would be absurd, not to mention offensive to those that worked on it! I wouldn't have even considered working on the project without the presence of the TIGER (or some other centerline) import. It's almost always far more work creating roads than fixing them. I know this from experience drawing new developments, some rather large, as well as aligning and verifying against photos thousands of existing streets over thousands of square miles of urban, suburban, and rural southern CA. Or do people here really think everything should be expand to the fullest. Trying to keep the discussion focused, I didn't write about all the places where abbreviations _are_ actually being widely used, theoretically against policy, like road networks, bike networks, pretty much any import with its own namespace, hgv, psv, source, etc. Because in the cases key names, the meaning is unique and unambiguous, and in the case of network symbols, closely following national or international standards for those symbols. I'm talking about values, not just keys. I wrote in the original thread that making a small handful of common, unambiguous, abbreviations for street types acceptable would cover a large percentage of the cases. It is particularly useful and unambiguous if we separate them out into their own tag (which is why this came up again). Lastly, it matches the overwhelming majority of print usage and signage. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:37:33 -0600, Kevin Atkinson wrote: Or do people here really think everything should be expand to the fullest. Abbreviations are bad because they can't be easily automatically expanded. However, it's easy to abbreviate in a renderer when you know what the full word is. Classic example: Abbreviate the word Street. Ok, now expand the abbreviation St. Really, would anyone say: United States Highway 29. Rather than U S Highway 29 or more likely just U S 29. Everybody calls Martin Luther King, Junior Boulevard MLK or Milk Junior, but that doesn't stop the name from being the long-form. At least 1st hasn't been expand to First, etc. But just wait... Ordinal numbers are not abbreviations. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Sat, 07 Aug 2010 18:28:26 -0700, Alan Mintz wrote: Lastly, it matches the overwhelming majority of print usage and signage. If print usage and signage were consistent even between cities in the same state, I'd tend to agree. Given that what areas abbreviate which words and what abbreviation they use for it, I'd say trying to find abbreviations everyone can agree on for this is entirely futile to the point of not even being worth trying. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: On 3 Aug 2010, at 22:32 , Kevin Atkinson wrote: OK. So There is clearly no agreement on the abbreviation of road types (Street, Way, etc). So what about these specific exceptions. I will assume silence means agreement :) Rather than United Stated Highway 29 Frontage Road just U.S. 29 Frontage Road or maybe US 29 Frontage Road. Why. Because no will say the formal out load. most of the times I see it name=Frontage Road ref=US 29 this will be rendered in similar way as on other maps. Name is on the street and US, I, is on a shield. Doesn't make sense to duplicate the ref on the name. Since when does a frontage road get a Highway shield? And in any case you are saying that the frontage road is part of US 29? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Kevin Atkinson ke...@atkinson.dhs.orgwrote: On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: On 3 Aug 2010, at 22:32 , Kevin Atkinson wrote: OK. So There is clearly no agreement on the abbreviation of road types (Street, Way, etc). So what about these specific exceptions. I will assume silence means agreement :) Rather than United Stated Highway 29 Frontage Road just U.S. 29 Frontage Road or maybe US 29 Frontage Road. Why. Because no will say the formal out load. most of the times I see it name=Frontage Road ref=US 29 this will be rendered in similar way as on other maps. Name is on the street and US, I, is on a shield. Doesn't make sense to duplicate the ref on the name. Since when does a frontage road get a Highway shield? got this wrong and meant Frontage road is a name, but now need to correct altogether. but what is meant here has most likely no name at all. frontage road is a then a type of highway not a name. and US 29 in any form is not really a name either. again all other maps will not render names unless there really is a defined name. normally ramp, access road, frontage road are mapped as highway=*link without name And in any case you are saying that the frontage road is part of US 29? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 1:32 AM, Kevin Atkinson ke...@atkinson.dhs.org wrote: OK. So There is clearly no agreement on the abbreviation of road types (Street, Way, etc). So what about these specific exceptions. I will assume silence means agreement :) See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name specifically under Abbreviations: Don't do it :-) Rather than United Stated Highway 29 Frontage Road just U.S. 29 Frontage Road or maybe US 29 Frontage Road. Why. Because no will say the formal out load. Rather than Interstate 95 Frontage Road, just I-95 Frontage Road. Why? Even though some will say the formal, most just say the letter I. North Service Road and South Service Road. Romantic names, I know. Are these similar to what you are calling frontage roads? http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.58872lon=-79.57644zoom=17layers=M Perhaps frontage roads are an edge case that have been dealt with in another jurisdiction. Are there suggestions from tagging, or talk? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On 8/4/10 7:45 AM, Richard Weait wrote: North Service Road and South Service Road. Romantic names, I know. Are these similar to what you are calling frontage roads? http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=43.58872lon=-79.57644zoom=17layers=M i certainly would call those frontage roads. Perhaps frontage roads are an edge case that have been dealt with in another jurisdiction. Are there suggestions from tagging, or talk? if the frontage roads have signs (some do, some don't) the name should be from the sign. otherwise, i'd go with local usage. some places use Service Road, others use Frontage Road, and i'm sure there are other usages. richard ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On 4 August 2010 08:23, Apollinaris Schoell ascho...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 11:04 PM, Kevin Atkinson ke...@atkinson.dhs.org wrote: On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Apollinaris Schoell wrote: On 3 Aug 2010, at 22:32 , Kevin Atkinson wrote: most of the times I see it name=Frontage Road ref=US 29 this will be rendered in similar way as on other maps. Name is on the street and US, I, is on a shield. Doesn't make sense to duplicate the ref on the name. Since when does a frontage road get a Highway shield? got this wrong and meant Frontage road is a name, but now need to correct altogether. but what is meant here has most likely no name at all. frontage road is a then a type of highway not a name. and US 29 in any form is not really a name either. again all other maps will not render names unless there really is a defined name. normally ramp, access road, frontage road are mapped as highway=*link without name Maybe the description= tag would be better for that, although name= is traditionally abused so much for descriptions that I don't see it as a problem. I agree about U.S. not being read out fully, so possibly it's better written this way too. Cheers ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On 08/04/2010 07:09 AM, Richard Welty wrote: otherwise, i'd go with local usage. some places use Service Road, others use Frontage Road, and i'm sure there are other usages. Either way though, that’s not the actual name of the road. It’s a description of the road’s function. (though sometimes they are actually named that by the local municipality as well, YMMV) —Alex Mauer “hawke” signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Wed, 4 Aug 2010, Richard Weait wrote: On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 1:32 AM, Kevin Atkinson ke...@atkinson.dhs.org wrote: OK. So There is clearly no agreement on the abbreviation of road types (Street, Way, etc). So what about these specific exceptions. I will assume silence means agreement :) See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name specifically under Abbreviations: Don't do it :-) Yes of course I know about. So you really are saying that, both examples should be spelled out, _if_, they are called that. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
I have found that in almost every case, the road really is officially named service road or frontage road if the naming authority is a county or municipality. In most cases though, the naming authority for such roads generally belongs to the State, who gives the road a name like an official name North Highway 40 Frontage Road (with the direction always designated side of the highway the road runs along, not direction the road runs), and then shortens it on the sign. The exceptions are when the state has an even more cryptic system that gives the frontage road an official name like R40N270170. This is common when the frontage or service road is technically a ramp. In those cases though, the roads rarely have signage. --Brett Brett Lord-Castillo Information Systems Designer/GIS Programmer St. Louis County Police Office of Emergency Management 14847 Ladue Bluffs Crossing Drive Chesterfield, MO 63017 Office: 314-628-5400 Fax: 314-628-5508 Direct: 314-628-5407 -Original Message- Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 10:34:25 -0500 From: Alex Mauer ha...@hawkesnest.net To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police Message-ID: i3c1a8$rs...@dough.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On 08/04/2010 07:09 AM, Richard Welty wrote: otherwise, i'd go with local usage. some places use Service Road, others use Frontage Road, and i'm sure there are other usages. Either way though, that?s not the actual name of the road. It?s a description of the road?s function. (though sometimes they are actually named that by the local municipality as well, YMMV) ?Alex Mauer ?hawke? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
I'm not really speaking for/against abbreviations in general, just adding information. It would definitely be Pkwy and Blvd. The USPS has documented standards for prefixes, suffixes and any other fixes you may want. 208 pages worth: http://pe.usps.com/cpim/ftp/pubs/pub28/pub28.pdf Toby On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 1:18 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net wrote: Yes. Last time, a couple of us (or maybe just me - I forget) argued that it was OK to use common abbreviations for some well-known street types - at least St, Ave, Blvd, Pl, etc. - but the opposition was significant, and no change could be agreed upon. (OT - I wish that recognition of similar opposition in the tiger tag removal were given the same weight) How do you abbreviate Boulevard? Blvd or Bv? How about Parkway? Pkwy, Pky, or Py? The same road (Central Florida Parkway) has all three on signs near its west end. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 2:49 AM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 1:18 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: How do you abbreviate Boulevard? Blvd or Bv? How about Parkway? Pkwy, Pky, or Py? The same road (Central Florida Parkway) has all three on signs near its west end. I'm not really speaking for/against abbreviations in general, just adding information. It would definitely be Pkwy and Blvd. The USPS has documented standards for prefixes, suffixes and any other fixes you may want. 208 pages worth: http://pe.usps.com/cpim/ftp/pubs/pub28/pub28.pdf That pretty much negates the reasoning that we should use abbreviations because it's what's on the signs though. I don't have any strong feelings on one side or the other, except that I am opposed to an 'in-between' state of abbreviating some (street, avenue) and not others (parkway, circle) because signs are inconsistent about the latter. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 2:57 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 2:49 AM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 1:18 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: How do you abbreviate Boulevard? Blvd or Bv? How about Parkway? Pkwy, Pky, or Py? The same road (Central Florida Parkway) has all three on signs near its west end. I'm not really speaking for/against abbreviations in general, just adding information. It would definitely be Pkwy and Blvd. The USPS has documented standards for prefixes, suffixes and any other fixes you may want. 208 pages worth: http://pe.usps.com/cpim/ftp/pubs/pub28/pub28.pdf That pretty much negates the reasoning that we should use abbreviations because it's what's on the signs though. I don't have any strong feelings on one side or the other, except that I am opposed to an 'in-between' state of abbreviating some (street, avenue) and not others (parkway, circle) because signs are inconsistent about the latter. Inconsistent use on signs, one type of rendering, reinforces that we should use the full name in the database. Other types of rendering, text to speech, Braille, map tiles, high resolution print, may rely on the uniform and full name. Or, at the discretion of that renderer may choose to convert the long form to the short form of their choosing. I see these abbreviation errors in other map products. I have a navigation device that announces County Road 33 as Co-Road Thirty-three Surely we can aspire to do better than propagating the errors of other projects? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: I see these abbreviation errors in other map products. I have a navigation device that announces County Road 33 as Co-Road Thirty-three Surely we can aspire to do better than propagating the errors of other projects? I've heard county aitch double-you why four twenty-three from in-car navigation. I've also seen TIGER errors such as Cord (one word) for County Road, or Logging Road for LR (a Legislative Route system that existed in Pennsylvania until 1987). (The latter is of course an improper expansion; we need to be careful when expanding.) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
OK. So There is clearly no agreement on the abbreviation of road types (Street, Way, etc). So what about these specific exceptions. I will assume silence means agreement :) Rather than United Stated Highway 29 Frontage Road just U.S. 29 Frontage Road or maybe US 29 Frontage Road. Why. Because no will say the formal out load. Rather than Interstate 95 Frontage Road, just I-95 Frontage Road. Why? Even though some will say the formal, most just say the letter I. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On 3 Aug 2010, at 22:32 , Kevin Atkinson wrote: OK. So There is clearly no agreement on the abbreviation of road types (Street, Way, etc). So what about these specific exceptions. I will assume silence means agreement :) Rather than United Stated Highway 29 Frontage Road just U.S. 29 Frontage Road or maybe US 29 Frontage Road. Why. Because no will say the formal out load. most of the times I see it name=Frontage Road ref=US 29 this will be rendered in similar way as on other maps. Name is on the street and US, I, is on a shield. Doesn't make sense to duplicate the ref on the name. for the rest of the proposed changes in previos mails of the thread I'd say go ahead and do the changes. Rather than Interstate 95 Frontage Road, just I-95 Frontage Road. Why? Even though some will say the formal, most just say the letter I. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Tue, 3 Aug 2010, Kevin Atkinson wrote: OK. So There is clearly no agreement on the abbreviation of road types (Street, Way, etc). So what about these specific exceptions. I will assume silence means agreement :) So to be clear. This mail has nothing to do with my proposed changes, or any of my other mail. I am just trying to figure out where we stand on the abbreviation issue. Rather than United Stated Highway 29 Frontage Road just U.S. 29 Frontage Road or maybe US 29 Frontage Road. Why. Because no will say the formal out load. Rather than Interstate 95 Frontage Road, just I-95 Frontage Road. Why? Even though some will say the formal, most just say the letter I. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Abbreviation Police
On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Kevin Atkinson ke...@atkinson.dhs.orgwrote: So I would like to know has anyone tried to get the wiki page changed so that it is not so rigid? feel free to do so, if there is an acceptable agreement or the wiki just doesn't make sense. the wiki is as open as osm. there is lot of wrong info and missing docu about real mapping usage Or do people here really think everything should be expand to the fullest. Really, would anyone say: United States Highway 29. Rather than U S Highway 29 or more likely just U S 29. you know the answer. I think a lot of the expansion is wrong. we should map what is on the ground and what can be verified. If people write address with abbreviations and signs use abbreviations there is no reason to have expanded names in osm In the above example would anyone write out the directional suffix. In fact Alan didn't even know if that would be Northwest or NorthWest. I think typically this isn't part of a name at all. Are people using it in an address for mailing? how is it written in official records? how would anyone do a search for a street? there are many corner cases so there is no simple yes or no At least 1st hasn't been expand to First, etc. But just wait... ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
