Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
On Thursday, September 21, 2000, 2:16:21 PM, A. wrote: ML What can you do? Forbidding them to use proportional fonts in ML TB won't stop them. My fixed width font advocacy is not confined to TB! but encompasses all discourse in plain text based messaging. It's a good standard to follow. It avoids mistakes. It avoids having to point out anything to anyone. Even those who never learn will get it right. :-) I tip my hat to you. I'm afraid, however, you're fighting an impossible battle. Just as mouse, GUI, multimedia on web sites, proportional font is here to stay, whether we like it or not. I see no chance for other email programs to change their default settings, and their users' tendency of using them (either out of default or by preference). Nor could I foresee a law banning proportional fonts in email. So the relevant focus of such discussion (on this list) would come down to whether TB should support proportional fonts or not. And I would say it should, though I won't be upset if it's not high on RIT's priority list. :) -- Best regards, Ming-Li The Bat! 1.47 Beta/5 | Win2k SP1 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
On Friday, September 22, 2000, 11:57:41 AM, Marck wrote: Being "different" is no sin. We all agree that proportionality has its' place. That spot is not available in V1. The programmers have seen this gripe from, oh, I'd guess at around 99.95% of *all* new users. Seriously! *Everyone* says it. That's why the arguments against it get so terse. Then I would say it's a misconception. I didn't complain about this as a new user (yes, I checked my archive just to make sure), and I've seen many others who didn't. I guess it's such misconception of new users always asking for "evil" things that's behind the occasional hostility toward such questions. -- Best regards, Ming-Li The Bat! 1.47 Beta/5 | Win2k SP1 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
On Thursday, September 21, 2000, 11:39:22 PM, Thomas wrote: Good. I will believe you. However, our sys-ad is of the opinion that M$ is great, and OE the best email client ever written. He says the monolithic approach of M$ is the most phantastic thing, and M$'s success shows that they're doing the right thing. LOL. Assuming he's a Taiwanese, mind if I ask from which school did he graduate? :) I puked when I received the first emails from my colleagues. It took a lot of missionary work to convert them to plain text, and in 90% that's what they send. I think the sysad doesn't like me any more. Hum, doesn't OE send html mail in mixed format (i.e., a plain text part is available)? Please let me know (step-by-step) how to switch OE's editor from proportional font to mono. If you don't mind, I would need that in Chinese (Big5), so I can distribute that in the company. Of course, you to send the Chinese version off-list g. I've removed OE from my Win2k environment (and even if it's still there, its menus and dialogs are in English). I'm not sure if it's still on my Win98 system, for I haven't booted into Win98 for a long time. I'll do that the next time I booted into Win98, if OE's still there. ML If TB wants to be really careful and prevent less-sophisticated ML users from sending such mail, then set the default fonts for ML the editing window to mono fonts should be enough, while ML allowing people to use proportional fonts for viewing mail. Taking the "uncle" effect out of the application. After all, TB users are responsible grown-ups, aren't we. ;-) Well, it's only the default. Responsible grown-ups can still change it, don't we? :) -- Best regards, Ming-Li The Bat! 1.47 Beta/5 | Win2k SP1 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sat, 23 Sep 2000 06:56:03 -0700, Ming-Li wrote: ML I tip my hat to you. I'm afraid, however, you're fighting an ML impossible battle. Just as mouse, GUI, multimedia on web sites, ML proportional font is here to stay, whether we like it or not. You left out HTML mail in your list. vbg Anyway, I agree that it's an impossible battle, *if* indeed there is a battle, which there really isn't. :-) ML I see no chance for other email programs to change their default ML settings, and their users' tendency of using them (either out of ML default or by preference). Nor could I foresee a law banning ML proportional fonts in email. So the relevant focus of such ML discussion (on this list) would come down to whether TB should ML support proportional fonts or not. And I would say it should, though ML I won't be upset if it's not high on RIT's priority list. :) Believe it or not, I'm with you on leaning towards their implementing proportional fonts as well, because one can't and shouldn't force others into using certain fonts. Even moreso, one shouldn't be forced to use a particular editor for e-mail composition. As long as I can use a fixed width font and can continue to encourage others to do the same, I'm happy. :-) - -- A. Curtis Martin.. Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA | PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937 PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey - --- ** "Dangerous exercise: Jumping to conclusions. " Using TB! v1.46d «» Win2k Pro SP1 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5.8 Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification. iQA/AwUBOczqIfAXeSHuB5k3EQJuwQCgs1l+hVAS5ph5Afwa3FT5c1NTD6UAoIFA j4D3UZeP6OGw7L3U/m57/wa1 =ITG3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
Hi Ming-Li, On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:30:22 -0700GMT (22/09/2000, 01:30 +0800GMT), Ming-Li wrote: ML Yes, it's a problem, but it has little effect on my argument. Oh? It is my main point. ML What ML these people need is a little lesson about why they shouldn't make ML such tables with proportional fonts. In my experience, people stop ML doing that once they've learned. All email program supporting ML proportional fonts support mono fonts as well, and people can be ML taught to use mono fonts when they need to do tables. Good. I will believe you. However, our sys-ad is of the opinion that M$ is great, and OE the best email client ever written. He says the monolithic approach of M$ is the most phantastic thing, and M$'s success shows that they're doing the right thing. Then he went on to teach everybody how to put little pictures (animations if possible) or colourful backgrounds, different fonts/ sizes / colours into emails. Is there another standard than HTML? I puked when I received the first emails from my colleagues. It took a lot of missionary work to convert them to plain text, and in 90% that's what they send. I think the sysad doesn't like me any more. Please let me know (step-by-step) how to switch OE's editor from proportional font to mono. If you don't mind, I would need that in Chinese (Big5), so I can distribute that in the company. Of course, you to send the Chinese version off-list g. ML Ok, so some people never learn. What can you do? Teach them. I don't think you will get bored. There is a couple of millions out there using OE for the first time with HTML (and prop fonts) set "on" by default. If they take computer classes, they learn that's what is good. Every heard of a Greek guy called Sysiphus? ML Not supporting proportional fonts in TB won't stop you from ML receiving such mail. If TB support proportional fonts, then at ML least you'll have the option to try to guess what fonts they use ML (Arial or Times New Roman mostly) and adjust the view accordingly. But then, that is true, too. ML If TB wants to be really careful and prevent less-sophisticated ML users from sending such mail, then set the default fonts for the ML editing window to mono fonts should be enough, while allowing people ML to use proportional fonts for viewing mail. Taking the "uncle" effect out of the application. After all, TB users are responsible grown-ups, aren't we. ;-) -- Cheers, Thomas. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46d under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 on a Pentium II/350 MHz. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Graham, On 22 September 2000 at 19:19:26 GMT +0100 (which was 19:19 where I live) Graham wrote and made these points on the subject of "Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)": G As a responsible adult, I WANT to use proportional fonts. The Bat G is acting like "uncle" and preventing ME from doing so. And how do you re-write all of TB paragraph handling and formatting routines which absolutely *rely* on the font being fixed width? It's not an "uncle" thing. It's the result of an implementation decision taken three years ago which RIT labs are very much tied in to. There is a clear requirement for choice but *not* in V1. It breaks too many things that are absolutely *right* about the way V1 works within itself. You are at liberty to break the way V1 works (the freedom you crave) with the now infamous registry hack that lets you use proportional fonts. You did know about that, didn't you? Maybe not. Here it is again: (posted previously by Alexander V. Kisilev) For if you _absolutely_ need variable- width font ..., you can go and manually edit your registry, in particular, these sections of it: HKEY_USERS\.Default\Software\RIT\The Bat!\Editor\Font HKEY_USERS\.Default\Software\RIT\The Bat!\Rich Text If you manually edit there the name of the font to be used, The Bat! will obey... But be advised, that if, for example, you write there "Arial", you'll hardly manage to read anything:-) G It would not be so bad if most of the other software out there G acted like The Bat, but they don't. The Bat is non-standard in its G approach, Being "different" is no sin. We all agree that proportionality has its' place. That spot is not available in V1. The programmers have seen this gripe from, oh, I'd guess at around 99.95% of *all* new users. Seriously! *Everyone* says it. That's why the arguments against it get so terse. Everyone's coming back with the reasons they have had to adopt for /accepting/ it the way it is in the hope that you can draw some comfort from one or other of them. G is irksome to me, and I'd like the choice. What can I say? You've made your choice. You're using Becky g. To use TB you would have to either hack the registry or live with the mono fonts and wait for V2. - -- Cheers, .\\arck [Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA ] [ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com ] [ PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY ] A mouse is just an elephant built by the Japanese TB! v1.46d S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build A -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5.8 Secured Comment: PGP Sealed for freshness! iQA/AwUBOcurpjnkJKuSnc2gEQJQ2QCg5xfA3ljW0vnmYQuuVFcgp1YzoZ0AoMAd ukZ5LIlZx596Gu/4TBs0TOOx =2eAr -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
On Wednesday, September 20, 2000, 2:41:39 AM, Thomas wrote: How about this: A/L +45+100 +500 +1,000.-kg --- SQ 4.503.50 3.20 O/R TG 3.20 3.00 LH 3.80 3.60 This is an example of airline cargo rates per kilo (the numbers are fictious and do not reflect the current market situation). Now, people in my office actually send stuff like this with OE, and it looks good on their screen. How's that for an argument in favour of fixed font? Yes, it's a problem, but it has little effect on my argument. What these people need is a little lesson about why they shouldn't make such tables with proportional fonts. In my experience, people stop doing that once they've learned. All email program supporting proportional fonts support mono fonts as well, and people can be taught to use mono fonts when they need to do tables. Ok, so some people never learn. What can you do? Forbidding them to use proportional fonts in TB won't stop them. They use OE (or Eudora, or whatever) anyway. Not supporting proportional fonts in TB won't stop you from receiving such mail. If TB support proportional fonts, then at least you'll have the option to try to guess what fonts they use (Arial or Times New Roman mostly) and adjust the view accordingly. If TB wants to be really careful and prevent less-sophisticated users from sending such mail, then set the default fonts for the editing window to mono fonts should be enough, while allowing people to use proportional fonts for viewing mail. -- Best regards, Ming-Li The Bat! 1.47 Beta/5 | Win2k SP1 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 21 Sep 2000 10:30:22 -0700, Ming-Li wrote: ML Ok, so some people never learn. Or they can forget. It can be a simple oversight. ML What can you do? Forbidding them to use proportional fonts in TB ML won't stop them. My fixed width font advocacy is not confined to TB! but encompasses all discourse in plain text based messaging. It's a good standard to follow. It avoids mistakes. It avoids having to point out anything to anyone. Even those who never learn will get it right. :-) ML They use OE (or Eudora, or whatever) anyway. Not supporting ML proportional fonts in TB won't stop you from receiving such mail. If ML TB support proportional fonts, then at least you'll have the option ML to try to guess what fonts they use (Arial or Times New Roman ML mostly) and adjust the view accordingly. This is what happens when proportional fonts are made optional. An impossible scenario arises. ML If TB wants to be really careful and prevent less-sophisticated ML users from sending such mail, then set the default fonts for the ML editing window to mono fonts should be enough, while allowing people ML to use proportional fonts for viewing mail. This is what I think is ideal. I see no reason why the message viewer should be made to use only fixed width fonts. Viewing messages has nothing to do with anyone else but the user. What font they use is purely up to them. However, composing and sending messages is another thing. - -- A. Curtis Martin.. Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA | PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937 PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey - --- ** "Honeymoon: time between I do and you'd better " Using TB! v1.46d «» Win2k Pro SP1 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5.8 Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification. iQA/AwUBOcp6pfAXeSHuB5k3EQL2mwCg43a8E9vr/zA2X9up2kgAcI2Lj3AAoPz+ TXlopTK+aVnJRCAbfpk1Y2dZ =8TWb -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
Hello Avenarius, Responding to your article on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 at 02:56:47 GMT +0200 (which was 20/09/2000 7:56 GMT +0700 my Local Time) : A By the way, where does one download the the_bat.hlp file? It wasn't A included in the executable package when I downloaded it... nor in the A language pack (or the connection doesn't click on my machines). And A when I browse www.ritlabs.com/ftp/ with CuteFTP, I can't see the help A file anywhere... (There was only Marek Mikus's excellent Czech help A file and a similar German one.) You must installed the complete (publish) The Bat! first (the latest is 1.46c) then update only the_bat.exe (any) beta version you wish. -- Best regards, - Syafril - Name : Syafril Hermansyah |Company: Duta Integrasi Pratama Mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Voice : (62) (21) 385-1600 FAXto : (62)(21)351-9241 key:000FAX |URL: http://www.dutaint.co.id Using The Bat! 1.47 Beta/3 under Windows NT 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 1 Created : Wednesday, September 20, 2000, 15:10:49 GMT +0700 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
Hi Arjan, On Wed, 20 Sep 2000 09:58:41 +0200GMT (20/09/2000, 15:58 +0800GMT), Arjan Vergeer wrote: The Bat is a powerful program but it needs a GUI to bring it into the mainstream of Windows programs. AV Why? There are so many (mainstream) programs that will fulfill your AV Windows-type editor dream.. Please don't try to push TB! into the AV mainstream :) I agree. We don't want to be mainstream, as this would kill TB. Mainstream programs are free by the dozen. What we want is an excellent program. :-) -- Cheers, Thomas. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 on a Pentium II/350 MHz. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
Hi Ming-Li, On Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:03:26 -0700GMT (20/09/2000, 07:03 +0800GMT), Ming-Li wrote: *--* * Try looking at this block of text with a * * proportional font and tell me what it looks like * *--* ML Fine example as it is, let's be honest: we don't need such exact ML positioning very often. And if a user wants to read that with ML proportional fonts, I see no reason against it. How about this: A/L +45+100 +500 +1,000.-kg --- SQ 4.503.50 3.20 O/R TG 3.20 3.00 LH 3.80 3.60 This is an example of airline cargo rates per kilo (the numbers are fictious and do not reflect the current market situation). Now, people in my office actually send stuff like this with OE, and it looks good on their screen. How's that for an argument in favour of fixed font? -- Cheers, Thomas. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 on a Pentium II/350 MHz. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thomas wrote: I agree. We don't want to be mainstream, as this would kill TB. Mainstream programs are free by the dozen. What we want is an excellent program. :-) The Bat! is an excellent program with lots of powerful functions. It needs to come out of the shadows and be appreciated as such. Ritlabs should be congratulated on what they have done. That still doesn't invalidate my opinion that when I sit down at my PC, I want a program that both looks and feels comfortable. I didn't grow up in a Unix environment, but a Windows environment; I'm almost 60 years of age and don't like the "clunky" feel of the interface and editor. Although I use The Bat, I also use other mailers which, whilst not as powerful, make it easier for me. I'm looking forward to v.2, but in the meantime I'd like to have more ease of use of 1.46 with a better interface. Too much to ask? Graham -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use http://www.pgp.com Comment: PGP 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBOciR5C7i2PqZ2xC9EQIlwQCfQ5sMPV46K5qq9HTTVyf7ZXPV1GAAoLsC gol7A1QIOtr3ztflBmrn3ZrM =N5JT -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Rob wrote: using proportional creates lots of problems. i regularly send/receive mails with screenshots (from mainframe applications using HP or DEC terminal emulation) like this : Interface Description Definition Direction Processor - - -- - -- DELFOR-I Delivery Forecast DELFOR Incoming xxint014.p DELFOR-O Delivery Forecast DELFOR Outgoing xxint013.p i send these shots using Courier (in Outlook), but can you imagine what this looks like to someone using LookOut and a proportional font ? and that's only a simple example ... I'm reading the above using Becky, and using proportional fonts. I can understand it quite easily. And if I can't I just select a mono font for the block. What's the problem? Graham -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.8 for non-commercial use http://www.pgp.com Comment: PGP 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBOciTuC7i2PqZ2xC9EQKFQQCdFlNmhR4jyFn7Cw/r1AtJMpWFozUAn2gK eoI4QeY99bVLg7LvxvOHLjAl =Xgpi -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
Hi Graham, On Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:31:24 +0100GMT (20/09/2000, 18:31 +0800GMT), Graham wrote: G when I sit down at my PC, I want a program that both looks and G feels comfortable. I didn't grow up in a Unix environment, but a G Windows environment; I'm almost 60 years of age and don't like the G "clunky" feel of the interface and editor. G Although I use The Bat, I also use other mailers which, whilst not as G powerful, make it easier for me. I'm looking forward to v.2, but in the G meantime I'd like to have more ease of use of 1.46 with a better G interface. Too much to ask? No, not too much to ask. What you asking for is a redesign of the interface, if I understand you correctly. The subject says something else. There have been some postings on this list asking for it. I have no idea whether the interface will be redesigned in v2, but why do I never see any suggestions? I think it would make sense if someone just made a mockup and posted it as a .jpg (or whatever file) somewhere on the www. What do you think? -- Cheers, Thomas. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 on a Pentium II/350 MHz. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi Graham, On 20 September 2000 at 11:38:55 GMT +0100 (which was 11:38 where I live) Graham wrote and made these points on the subject of "Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)": Interface Description Definition Direction Processor - - -- - -- DELFOR-I Delivery Forecast DELFOR Incoming xxint014.p DELFOR-O Delivery Forecast DELFOR Outgoing xxint013.p i send these shots using Courier (in Outlook), but can you imagine what this looks like to someone using LookOut and a proportional font ? and that's only a simple example ... G I'm reading the above using Becky, and using proportional fonts. I G can understand it quite easily. Perhaps, although it does not look as intended. The point is that since it was prepared in a fixed pitch font, it can easily been seen accurately. Imagine it was *prepared* in a proportional font. Then it would have *no chance* of looking right unless you use the *specific* font used to create it (if you happen to have it). G And if I can't I just select a mono font for the block. What's the G problem? None. I used to like having the Mono / Prop toggle in Pegasus. OTOH I don't miss it. There is another problem which revolves around TB's paragraph handling. This relies on and only makes sense with mono fonts. How do you centre or justify text when the font is all over the place? Here's the real point, aside from taste and preferences: the issues in TB are much more complex than being able to come in cold and say "it should do proportional fonts?". Perhaps it should. The truth is that it does not and that many features of the editor revolve around it not doing so. To change it may seem a simple request but, as a professional in this field, I know for certain that it is *not* a trivial task. It has been said by many and argued every which way. RIT labs read this list and know of our feelings on the issue. Everyone is right. IMHO it won't change in v1 no matter what anyone says. - -- Cheers, .\\arck [Marck D. Pearlstone | Moderator TBUDL / TBBETA ] [ PGP Key ID: 0x929DCDA0 | www: http://www.silverstones.com ] [ PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=GET%20MARCKKEY ] Used Car Dealer: Second Hand cars in first crash condition TB! v1.47 Beta/5 S/N 14F4B4B2 on Windows 98 4.10 Build A -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5.8 Secured Comment: PGP Sealed for freshness! iQA/AwUBOcidaznkJKuSnc2gEQKW5wCdHOGZxAGvPuq2ofYE5i27u8WTorsAn1/X 1mUKCf/Ua/507IRqdqPdcbXY =2T97 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
Hi Graham, On Wed, 20 Sep 2000 11:38:55 +0100GMT (20/09/2000, 18:38 +0800GMT), Graham wrote: G I'm reading the above using Becky, and using proportional fonts. I can G understand it quite easily. And if I can't I just select a mono font G for the block. What's the problem? Exactly: no problem if the sender used fixed width fonts. :-) What if he used prop width fonts, because he used OE? Are you going to go through all the fonts on your HD to check out which one fits and makes sense? See my message to Ming-Li in this thread. I get tables like this that were sent in OE all the time. I have absolutely no idea which price is supposed to be at which weight break! Especially if it is long lists. I have asked them to send them to me as Excel files - what a waste of bandwidth! If everybody used fixed-width fonts for sending, and we could just click on mono if we wanted to, this would be a nice world. Thanks for making our point. ;-) -- Cheers, Thomas. Message reply created with The Bat! 1.46c under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build 1998 on a Pentium II/350 MHz. -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
I'm reading the above using Becky, and using proportional fonts. ... What's the problem? the problem is that OutLook using proportional fonts makes a mess of it ; i never said anything about Becky ... whoever she is. ;-) -- Rob -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
On Wednesday, September 20, 2000, 12:01:05 AM, Oleg wrote: ML since there's no "proportional fonts only" editor/email ML clients. Wrong here. There are lots of text mode mail clients. E.g. mail clients for unix. You mean lots of text mode mail clients using "proportional fonts", and proportional fonts ONLY? I don't think so, though I would love to be proved wrong. :) -- Best regards, Ming-Li The Bat! 1.47 Beta/5 | Win2k SP1 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
On 19-09-2000 at 21:56, Avenarius kindly wrote: A. Curtis Martin wrote: ACM This is without auto-format enabled. How do you enable auto-format automatically? I know that within the message it's CTRL+SHIFT+F. You can set that in your Preferences. Start a new message, right-click, and the one-but-last entry is Preferences. Select that, and look under the General tab. Voilà. [fixed vs proportional fonts] ACM The only plus for using a variable width font is a purely selfish ACM one, ie, visual appeal. Here I don't follow you. What's selfish is sending html messages and cluttering other people's mailboxes with unnecessary kilobytes and eventually megabytes. I agree, and I don't think that having control over how you see things, while your choice doesn't affect others, can be labelled selfish. - K - -- Capricorns don't believe in astrology. - Daniel Richler: Kicking Tomorrow -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 19 Sep 2000 21:56:13 +0200, Avenarius wrote: A Which one is that, Allie? Where could I find it? I think I need it, A too. Right now I'm using Courier New Bold (not-bold is ugly) and I'd A be willing to trade it for a better-looking one. You may look here http://home.bsu.edu/prn/monofont/index.html for some extra fonts. You may even find some for sale if you're desperate. :-))) ACM The only plus for using a variable width font is a purely selfish ACM one, ie, visual appeal. A Here I don't follow you. It's a daring statement, yes :-); but I think it's true. Why do you use a proportional font over a fixed width font. You prefer how it looks, right? It's the one that you want to read your messages and compose your mail with, right? How does the recipient come into the picture? Where's the consideration for the recipient in this decision? The recipient is not involved, hence it's selfish, or a sender centric choice. Now take a fixed width font now. They are usually pretty darned ugly and tend to take up more screen real estate than a proportional font but there are distinct advantages to it. These advantages stem from what makes it what it is. A fixed width font is one in which *all* characters have the same width. This is in contrast to proportional fonts where all characters do not share the same width and the variation with character widths depends on the variable width font being used. Because all fixed width fonts share this quality of a fixed character width, the formatting of text using a fixed width font will appear exactly the same no matter what fixed width font is being used to display the material. IOW's, no matter which fixed width font is being used, each line of text and word will be have the same exact relative position to each other no matter what fixed width font you are using. This allows the exchange and appreciation of precision formatting between users who are free to use whatever fixed width font they desire. This makes you able to do nice things with the assurance that the person at the other end will be able to see exactly what you intended. *--* * Try looking at this block of text with a * * proportional font and tell me what it looks like * *--* If you look at the above with Arial it will not look as it looks with a fixed width font. Now switch between fixed width fonts and you'll see that the alignment remains the same. A What's selfish is sending html messages and cluttering other people's A mailboxes with unnecessary kilobytes and eventually megabytes. Copy and paste the above underlined text to notepad and look at it using Arial. The underlining is out of alignment isn't it? Now switch between different fixed width fonts. A Yet what I choose to view on my own screen is solely my own business, A isn't it? It can't inconvenience anyone, as long as the posts I'm A sending off are all set to plain text, which they are. But, what font will you use to compose mail? :-) The thing is that the reverse of what I wrote above applies. a) If you use a variable width font to create a box with text as I did above, then for the recipient to see it as such, they would have to be using the *same* variable width font that you used. OTOH, if I did it, you would need to use *any* fixed width font of your choice. It offers you *and* the recipient more flexibility. Not selfish. :-) b) If I use a fixed width font or my own variable width font, I could never send you precisely formatted material and expect you to be able to read and see it as intended because you are not using a fixed width font and you may very well not be using the exact same variable width font as I am. The long and short of it is that fixed width fonts allow exchange of messages between users with full knowledge that the formatting will be seen exactly as intended even though the users are each using their own choice of fixed width font. To achieve the same effect with a variable width font, all users would have to agree to use the *same* variable width font. I hope that helped clarify my initial statement? :-) - -- A. Curtis Martin.. Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA | PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937 PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey - --- ** "Skiier: Someone who pays an arm and a leg to break them. " Using TB! v1.47 Beta/3 «» Win2k Pro SP1 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5.8 Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification. iQA/AwUBOcfkwPAXeSHuB5k3EQKZcwCeLpgzIcBeg4srbAKI7Axg4/zk1rgAoPsb HhrVV36Srj4ZZ/bkWSlmGexG =vuPA -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
On Tuesday, September 19, 2000, 3:12:16 PM, A. wrote: ACM The only plus for using a variable width font is a purely ACM selfish one, ie, visual appeal. A Here I don't follow you. It's a daring statement, yes :-); but I think it's true. Why do you use a proportional font over a fixed width font. You prefer how it looks, right? Well, there's at least one practical reason: to accommodate more words in one line. Why? Because one might have a smaller window. It's the one that you want to read your messages and compose your mail with, right? How does the recipient come into the picture? Where's the consideration for the recipient in this decision? The recipient is not involved, hence it's selfish, or a sender centric choice. I don't really get this, either. How one read one's mail is for sure of no body's concern. As to sending mail, those who use proportional fonts usually don't send anything that need exact positioning, and they do, they can always switch to mono fonts to do so. *--* * Try looking at this block of text with a * * proportional font and tell me what it looks like * *--* Fine example as it is, let's be honest: we don't need such exact positioning very often. And if a user wants to read that with proportional fonts, I see no reason against it. But, what font will you use to compose mail? :-) The thing is that the reverse of what I wrote above applies. a) If you use a variable width font to create a box with text as I did above, then for the recipient to see it as such, they would have to be using the *same* variable width font that you used. OTOH, if I did it, you would need to use *any* fixed width font of your choice. It offers you *and* the recipient more flexibility. Not selfish. :-) As I said, very few, if any, users who use proportional fonts would do such things, and they can always resort to mono fonts to do it, since there's no "proportional fonts only" editor/email clients. Even there are less computer-savvy people who though everyone is using the same proportional fonts as they do, it's only a matter of a little education. Reason with them and they'll know. Since there's no way to force people not to use other email programs, I see no practical reason to force people to use mono fonts in TB, either. As I've said many times, I personally like mono fonts just fine. But I see no point waging a war against people who prefer proportional fonts. -- Best regards, Ming-Li The Bat! 1.47 Beta/3 | Win2k SP1 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 19 Sep 2000 16:03:26 -0700, Ming-Li wrote: snip ML As I've said many times, I personally like mono fonts just fine. But ML I see no point waging a war against people who prefer proportional ML fonts. Waging a war? :-) LOL! - -- A. Curtis Martin.. Moderator TBUDL/TBBETA | PGP Key ID: 0xEE079937 PGP Key: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Subject=SendAlliePGPKey - --- ** "Smile... people will wonder what you've been up to. " Using TB! v1.47 Beta/3 «» Win2k Pro SP1 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5.8 Comment: Digitally signed for message and sender verification. iQA/AwUBOcf0ovAXeSHuB5k3EQLDuQCfbhypNBhyy1UrT1J2YGWT6N0ZQrgAoJf8 8B2OQtQ73EAAUgZfwnfhbe3X =NHNY -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re: Fixed or variable width? (was Re[2]: Karin and The Bat)
On 20-09-2000 at 01:03, Ming-Li kindly wrote: On Tuesday, September 19, 2000, 3:12:16 PM, A. wrote: [fixed and proportional fonts again] How does the recipient come into the picture? Where's the consideration for the recipient in this decision? The recipient is not involved, hence it's selfish, or a sender centric choice. I don't really get this, either. How one read one's mail is for sure of no body's concern. As to sending mail, those who use proportional fonts usually don't send anything that need exact positioning, and they do, they can always switch to mono fonts to do so. And if they do on occasion, they'll usually make sure that their tables and columns look right. I know that I always done so: sending messages to myself and changing them until they looked perfect. But I totally agree with Ming-Li: since I hardly ever sent mail that needs fixed width and especially since I take great care how any of my mail that includes lists, tables etc look for the recipient and gear them towards fixed fonts (how else can you make a table?), you can hardly go and say that me wanting to SEE and compose my messages in proportional font is selfish. *--* * Try looking at this block of text with a * * proportional font and tell me what it looks like * *--* Fine example as it is, let's be honest: we don't need such exact positioning very often. And if a user wants to read that with proportional fonts, I see no reason against it. Exactl;y. Plus, by now we prop fonts users have become quite apt at mentally repositioning 's and ---'s. As I've said many times, I personally like mono fonts just fine. But I see no point waging a war against people who prefer proportional fonts. Ming-Li, can I kiss your hand? - K - -- You will find me if you want me in the garden unless it's pouring down with rain - Einstürzende Neubauten: The Garden -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
