Re: How do I send from a selected isp?

[Allie C Martin]

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@ 19:35:39 + [ Wed, 13 Mar 2002], Charles Collinson [CC] contributed
this to our collective wisdom:
...

CC> Getting way off point but just thought I'd pitch in with wanting
CC> better support access than an email server.

Good commentary there. Thanks for points with which I'm in agreement.
Though we did stray away from the subject at hand, you brought up a very
pertinent point that needs to be discussed intermittently.

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Re: How do I send from a selected isp?

[Charles Collinson]

Allie,

> We've given this thought in the past and it has been discussed. There
> are two main reasons why we prefer an e-mail list.
> 
> a) The list can be better moderated and hence the quality of the list
> maintained.

All your points are true, especially maybe the latter ones about email been
a quicker and easier option for some, however running a local news server gets
rid of a lot of the undesirables.

However, why not run both, if it's an issue. If not run two then get one put
forward onto the USENET, which would maybe allow some of us to decide how to
get the info? I'm new to the Bat, so the list is useful and currently
message traffic isn't major, however lists are the first to get switched off
where as news server can be opt'ed into and out of at a moments notice.
They'd be no reason not to provide both either locally, or on USENET (last
resort). I do see your points and going on message flow much are very valid.
It might be interesting, though running a USENET group (put on USENET and ran
through it, as compared to a local server), as it would capture those not on
the list and I'm sure there will be very many users not on the list. At the
same time it would maybe also give The Bat a little more exposure and allow
users to pitch and cover it more, in a promotional kinda way.

> The TBUDL list server is in Indonesia. I therefore have to give some
> slack to delivery issues as opposed to

I gathered as much and 'giving slack' is my middle name but it all has, or
can have a knock effect commercially speaking.

I can only assume that when version 2 comes along and it has a news reader
in it, we'll see a group either local server, or USENET :) A day I look
forward do indeed. If The Bat can do what it does for email with news, I'll
be more than happy :)

Getting way off point but just thought I'd pitch in with wanting better
support access than an email server.


BTW

CC>> I was been aggressive about the list, however there is sufficient
CC>> need now to move it to a NNTP server system if possible. Mailing

As ever I miss an important ending off. I meant to say; "I *wasn't* been
aggressive about the list". Opps for that.

Charles Collinson


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Re: How do I send from a selected isp?

[Charles Collinson]

DG,

> Why not run your own SMTP server, as I do, such as Mercury/32 or Postcast
> Server, and let it handle your SMTP requirements? It WILL inform you when

I do and that's not my problem, if indeed there is a problem. I just never
got one of the messages and also wanted to maybe put forward using a news
server for support instead of, say, this email list. That was all :)

Charles Collinson


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Re: How do I send from a selected isp?

[Allie C Martin]

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@ 16:35:08 + [ Wed, 13 Mar 2002], Charles Collinson [CC] contributed
this to our collective wisdom:
...
CC> Apart from obvious failures at my pop3 server end, it's the first
CC> time I've known a list to fail to send me something. Not an exact
CC> science I grant you but still :)

The TBUDL list server is in Indonesia. I therefore have to give some
slack to delivery issues as opposed to a list server that resides in the
US. Though things are usually OK, problems do arise at times.

After all that's said, the recent problems with the lists are secondary
to local server issues which are being worked on. Things have improved
and you should be seeing evidence of this as I have been.

CC> I was been aggressive about the list, however there is sufficient
CC> need now to move it to a NNTP server system if possible. Mailing
CC> lists are a pain at the best of times. Both for your management, as
CC> well as those of us with already busy inboxes. A general USENET NNTP
CC> group would be ideal and maybe leave the beta and more specialised
CC> lists on email. If you guys can host some NNTP server software
CC> locally, like this list server software then all the better, as it
CC> wouldn't then dependent on a good newsfeed. Just a thought.

We've given this thought in the past and it has been discussed. There
are two main reasons why we prefer an e-mail list.

a) The list can be better moderated and hence the quality of the list
maintained. There's always a lot of background noise in news groups
because of the undesirables that hang around and create trouble. Filters
help but not well enough.

b) An e-mail list offers the user the opportunity to *use* TB!. For
example, I often use these very messages on this list to test things and
learn about TB!. I only use threading for these list type messages.

Another reason not to use a NNTP server is that many TB! users don't use
a News Reader and would therefore have to obtain one and learn how to
use one.

You've already stated the advantages of News Servers in that you can
selectively download and read what messages you wish to. However, you
have to go and get them rather than their getting to you directly.
That's just a matter of taste though.

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Re: How do I send from a selected isp?

[Charles Collinson]

Leif,

> Just trying to determine which list you're speaking of. If it's this
> one (TBUDL), the developers have absolutely nothing to do with it. I
> created this list back in December of 1998 running entirely under

Yes I read up on the history of this (these) lists and have downloaded some
data on using the Bat for this.

Thanks for all the info, most interesting, and previous to your message I
fiddled with the sort order, to deal with the apparent order of the
messages.

I can well believe there's a lot of issues involved with list management - I
deal with a few myself in fact.

I just thought it odd that I didn't get the message in question and someone
also mentioned messages that existed but never got onto the list, or
returned to them, etc. Whether the message in my case was sent privately and
then the person re-directed it back onto the list I don't know but I still
never got it and have to query why. That was all. Apart from obvious
failures at my pop3 server end, it's the first time I've known a list to
fail to send me something. Not an exact science I grant you but still :)

I tried following the leads to who ran the hardware and software for this
list but came up against a brick wall really, so couldn't assess what was
been used really.

I was been aggressive about the list, however there is sufficient need
now to move it to a NNTP server system if possible. Mailing lists are a pain
at the best of times. Both for your management, as well as those of us with
already busy inboxes. A general USENET NNTP group would be ideal and maybe
leave the beta and more specialised lists on email. If you guys can host some NNTP
server software locally, like this list server software then all the better,
as it wouldn't then dependent on a good newsfeed. Just a thought.

As to "Arpanet", I wasn't aware that in relation to email this 'hopping'
wasn't that much these days compared to the likes of NNTP server feeds.

I would still certainly suggest a better method of support than email
servers, especially as the user base grows. As you well know, NNTP gives me
the better 'right' to get what I want instead of getting it all, or none. I
don't like 'digests' either. At least consider it, that's all.

Charles Collinson


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Re: How do I send from a selected isp?

[Leif Gregory]

Hello Charles, 

On Tue, 12 Mar 2002 at 19:52:05 [GMT +], you wrote:
CC> From what I've seen the developers of The Bat would be as well
CC> buying in a better mail list server - many are available.

Just trying to determine which list you're speaking of. If it's this
one (TBUDL), the developers have absolutely nothing to do with it. I
created this list back in December of 1998 running entirely under The
Bat. Once list traffic exceeded my meager 28.8K modem capabilities, it
was moved to a list server, which later went down, and thanks to
Marck and Syafril's quick action they picked up the list and it's
being hosted by Syafril to this day. It is using the Listar software
for the mailing list manager which is a true mailing list host.

Over a period of time, we've discovered that most problems with the
list are improperly sent posts by the users (things like not putting
in a subject, sent to the server address instead of the post address),
or that some other server in the chain to the subscriber is causing
the problem.

As for messages arriving out of order, there are two possibilities.
One is the server issue I mentioned above where one of the servers in
the chain between the list host and the subscriber is holding messages
up, but the other is that oftentimes, the subscriber has their viewing
options incorrectly set. Sorting by creation date vs. received date
oftentimes fixes the "apparent" out of order messages.

The cool thing about the TB lists (TBUDL, TBBETA, TBDEV, and TBTECH),
is that oftentimes answers are provided just seconds after someone has
posted a message. If for instance, some server on the way to you is
holding up messages, the other list members might get it before you,
reply, and because the reply goes a different path (hops), you might
get the reply before you get the original question. There's really
nothing any list software can do to overcome it. This is the way the
Internet was designed (read up on Arpanet for more info).

The bounces we moderators see on a daily basis is huge. We do our best
to determine if the problem is with the list, but most times there
isn't anything we can do about someone else's server.


Cheers,
Leif Gregory 

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Re: How do I send from a selected isp?

[Charles Collinson]

DG,


> Sorry Charles. I lost you here. I see no quotes from myself therefore I am
> at loss as to what you are asking.
> 
> Could you clue me in?

Yea, sorry one of those weeks. It was your reply to someone else's reply to me. I
got your message but never got the message that you were replying to - still
haven't.

Basically I also got an email off someone to leave it a day, etc, etc.

>From what I've seen the developers of The Bat would be as well buying in a
better mail list server - many are available. Of all the ones I've ever used
this one either doesn't send the message, or sends them out of order -
suffice to say it's a bomb waiting to go off. If the developers can't get a
free to access NNTP server sorted out then get a good list server provision.
This one is not - currently. Anything 'bad' reflects on those that provide
it and this one needs attention IMO. Personally they want to be looking into
a free to access NNTP server set-up but sort something they must I fear.
Sorry to be off topic.

Charles Collinson


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Re: How do I send from a selected isp?

[Ottar Grimstad]

Hello Charles,

Monday, March 11, 2002, 7:38:54 PM, you wrote to TBUDL:

CC> Totally off topic here but I never got this email below? Is there
CC> an issue with the list server, or me, or in fact the time it takes
CC> to get email?

And I have messages in my Sent-box that I never have seen on the
list.

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mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.online.no/~ottgrims
Using The Bat! 1.54 Beta/45 on Windows 98 version 4,10


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TBBETA Subscribe address - was Re: How do I send from a selected isp?

[Leif Gregory]

Hello Big, 

On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 at 21:14:34 [GMT +1100], you wrote:
BP> BTW what is the subscribe address to the beta list?

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


Cheers,
Leif Gregory 

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Re: How do I send from a selected isp?

[Charles Collinson]

DG,

Totally off topic here but I never got this email below? Is there an issue
with the list server, or me, or in fact the time it takes to get email?

> Greetings Ottar,

> On Monday, March 11, 2002, 11:15:23 AM, you wrote:

Ottar>> Hello Charles,

Ottar>> Monday, March 11, 2002, 10:41:03 AM, you wrote to TBUDL:

CC>>> You can't dial into x and expect to send email through someone
CC>>> else's SMTP server, etc. I have loads of dial-ups and making sure
CC>>> I'm on the right SMTP server was hassle. I solved it by using:
CC>>> http://www.mailutilities.com/adr/ However you can do the same
CC>>> with: http://www.postcastserver.com

Ottar>>   www.myrealbox.com has a free smpt server based on login that can be
Ottar>>   used from anywhere.

Charles Collinson


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Re: How do I send from a selected isp?

[Ottar Grimstad]

Hello Charles,

Monday, March 11, 2002, 10:41:03 AM, you wrote to TBUDL:

CC> You can't dial into x and expect to send email through someone
CC> else's SMTP server, etc. I have loads of dial-ups and making sure
CC> I'm on the right SMTP server was hassle. I solved it by using:
CC> http://www.mailutilities.com/adr/ However you can do the same
CC> with: http://www.postcastserver.com

  www.myrealbox.com has a free smpt server based on login that can be
  used from anywhere.

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  Ottar Grimstad, Norway
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.online.no/~ottgrims
Using The Bat! 1.54 Beta/45 on Windows 98 version 4,10


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Re: How do I send from a selected isp?

[Marcus Ohlström]

At 20:03 2002-03-11 +1100, you wrote:

>Some mailing lists to which I belong check that I use the correct name, 
>and have
>posted from  the correct SMTP (like Bat! mailing list, I suppose).

Neither TBUDL nor TBBETA cares about which SMTP-server you use, they only 
cares about the From:address.

>What macro do I use to allow mail to be sent from bigpond, but to "appear' as
>sent from rivernet, so it is accepted by the mailing list?

I use %FROM="[EMAIL PROTECTED]" in my template for both TBUDL and TBBETA.

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Now using Eudora, huh!


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Re: How do I send from a selected isp?

[Charles Collinson]

Big,


> What macro do I use to allow mail to be sent from bigpond, but to "appear' as
> sent from rivernet, so it is accepted by the mailing list?

I thought most list servers based themselves on your "From:" field? I've
never had a problem sending from anywhere (SMTP), just as long as my 'from'
field was the email address I registered with the list.

I don't understand the 'Bigpond' problem. Maybe you are trying to send
through it's pop3 server and it has a separate SMTP server, as most ISP's do
have. An SMTP server is also specific to the dial-up you use, so maybe this
is confusing you? You can't dial into x and expect to send email through
someone else's SMTP server, etc. I have loads of dial-ups and making sure
I'm on the right SMTP server was hassle. I solved it by using:
http://www.mailutilities.com/adr/
However you can do the same with:
http://www.postcastserver.com

Sort out your SMTP server (sending system) and all that is left is to be
sure you use the email address you registered in the "From" field.

Sorry if I'm missing the mark here. But you'll have to be a little clearer
as to your problem and your knowledge of how these things work for us to
comment further I think.

Charles Collinson


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