Re: Scroll Wheel Problem - I may have figured it out!
Hello Mark, On Friday, February 6, 2004, at 8:49:06 PM, you wrote re: Scroll Wheel Problem - I may have figured it out!: MW Sounds like the problem is nailed, but I'm with that developer on this MW one: I would assume that a -1 returned from a number-of-lines API call MW would mean an error condition occurred. This just in from a developer of another product I use: Fwiw, I don't think the problem is Logitech's. The Microsoft docs do clearly say that -1 (#defined as WHEEL_PAGESCROLL) is a valid number of lines to scroll. However, I'm pretty sure they DIDN'T say this originally - so the mistake I and presumably other developers made was to rely on the original version of the wheel documentation and not keep up-to-date with changes Microsoft have made to the spec. At any rate, I just downloaded the beta (61) that was released today and the problem is indeed fixed! I am thrilled!!! It is wonderful to be able to scroll a page at a time in The Bat! -- Cheers! Wayne Howard Using The Bat! version: 2.03 Beta/61 Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
On Thursday, February 5, 2004, 9:26:06 PM, Stefan Tanurkov wrote: What are the settings for those buttons? I have an MX500 too and those two buttons work as expected here... Just to add to the people without problems with a logitech mouse, I have a MX700, and this works almost perfectly with TB!, using version 9.79 of Mousewere. I can confirm what Bill has noted, and the cruise up/down buttons do not work in the preview pane, although the normal wheel does. Julian -- Using The Bat! v2.02.3 CE on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Stefan Thank you for your email dated Friday, February 6, 2004, 10:54:15 AM, in which you wrote: ST correctly starting from 2.03 Beta/59 :-) Do you think Mr Gates will fix a problem I've got with IE as quickly? -- Regards William http://www.residues.info Flying with The Bat! www.ritlabs.com/the_bat Windows 2000 Pro 2195 Service Pack 4 Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Stefan, On Friday, February 6, 2004, at 5:50:01 AM, you wrote re: Scroll Wheel Problem: ST Well, I've just installed a Logitech Cordless TrackMan Wheel and ST could ST not see any problem with scrolling windows - it just behaves the ST same ST way as other wheeled devices (i.e. performs scrolling). ST The driver version number is 9.79... Are any of you that say it is working using Windows 2000? -- Cheers! Wayne Howard Using The Bat! version: 2.02.3 CE Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Stefan, On Friday, February 6, 2004, at 2:07:38 AM, you wrote re: Scroll Wheel Problem: ST Well, it completely depends on the driver. Tell me what settings ST are available for the wheel before I can suggest anything. :-) There are not any additional settings - only a setting for the number of lines to scroll or by page. I no longer using a Logitech mouse. I am using a Contour Perfit mouse made by Contour Designs (www.contourdesigns.com) I mentioned the Logitech Mouseman Wheel (with a cord) because it exhibited the same problem. Older versions of the Logitech Mouseware had a setting that could be changed - i.e. put it into non-MS Office mode (which worked). Later versions do not. In any case, it was a pain to switch settings just to use The Bat! -- Cheers! Wayne Howard Using The Bat! version: 2.02.3 CE Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem - additional observation
Hello Wayne, On Friday, February 6, 2004, at 9:43:02 AM, you wrote re: Scroll Wheel Problem: WH Hello Stefan, WH On Friday, February 6, 2004, at 2:07:38 AM, you wrote WH re: Scroll Wheel Problem: ST Well, it completely depends on the driver. Tell me what settings ST are available for the wheel before I can suggest anything. :-) WH There are not any additional settings - only a setting for the number WH of lines to scroll or by page. I no longer using a Logitech mouse. I WH am using a Contour Perfit mouse made by Contour Designs WH (www.contourdesigns.com) I mentioned the Logitech Mouseman Wheel (with WH a cord) because it exhibited the same problem. Older versions of the WH Logitech Mouseware had a setting that could be changed - i.e. put it WH into non-MS Office mode (which worked). Later versions do not. In any WH case, it was a pain to switch settings just to use The Bat! I noticed that if I change the mouse scroll properties (from one screen to a number of lines and back) and then shut down The Bat! and restart The Bat!, then the scroll works fine. It works fine until I reboot. It does not appear that there is a problem with the Contour drivers but a problem with The Bat! reading the mouse settings. -- Cheers! Wayne Howard Using The Bat! version: 2.02.3 CE Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Wayne- Thursday, February 5, 2004, 9:40:11 PM, you wrote: WH The problem does not occur with Microsoft mice. Unfortunately, WH Microsoft does not make any mice that fit my hand correctly. Then I fail to see why this is a TB problem. You should be on Logitech's case to fix their driver, although I'm interested in what the problem is just from a geek perspective. The point about hand-fitting is well taken. MS has their own ideas about ergonomics (and everything else). -- -Mark Wieder Using The Bat! v1.63 Beta/7 on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4 Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Bill, On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 07:02:25 -0500 GMT (06/02/2004, 19:02 +0700 GMT), Bill Blinn Technology Editor wrote: S OK, I've just made a fix I'm seriously concerned that RIT Labs is not a real software company. [...] RIT Labs, on the other hand, receives a report and fixes the problem within 24 hours. (Now if you will excuse me, I must have someone help me extricate my tongue from my cheek, where it is firmly wedged.) LOL! -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. I tested this program in the presence of a certified child labourer, and she went crazy over it. - Wanda Sloan in a software review for an icon-generating program. Message reply created with The Bat! 2.03 Beta/51 under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem - additional observation
Hello Wayne, -- Cheers! Wayne Howard Oh my goodness! Sacrilege! Your cut mark is wrong in this message ;-) -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v2.01.3 Winamp OFF: Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Mark, On Friday, February 6, 2004, at 1:22:57 PM, you wrote re: Scroll Wheel Problem: MW Then I fail to see why this is a TB problem. You should be on MW Logitech's case to fix their driver, although I'm interested in what MW the problem is just from a geek perspective. I'm no longer using a Logitech mouse - but it does have the same problem. The Bat! is the only application I use that exhibits this problem. MW The point about hand-fitting is well taken. MS has their own ideas MW about ergonomics (and everything else). And they pale in comparison to the Countour Design Perfit mouse. I have an extra-large hand. My hand cramps up and my wrist gets sore from using anything Microsoft. The distance between the thumb and index finger is too small. -- Cheers! Wayne Howard Using The Bat! version: 2.02.3 CE Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Mark, On Friday, February 6, 2004, at 1:22:57 PM, you wrote re: Scroll Wheel Problem: MW Wayne- MW Thursday, February 5, 2004, 9:40:11 PM, you wrote: WH The problem does not occur with Microsoft mice. Unfortunately, WH Microsoft does not make any mice that fit my hand correctly. MW Then I fail to see why this is a TB problem. You should be on MW Logitech's case to fix their driver, although I'm interested in what MW the problem is just from a geek perspective. Further thought. No that this is being seen in mice of at least two different brands of mice/drivers, why would you think that it is a driver problem? It seems like it's the other way around. It seems like TB was only designed to work with Microsoft mice. I think that the problem lies in the way in which TB is detecting the mouse settings while the system is booting (I have TB set to load automatically). As I said in my last reply, if I change the mouse settings and then shutdown and reopen The Bat!, it seems to at least partially recognize the scroll settings. It's still not scrolling a screen at a time when it does work. Sometimes it is more than a screen. MW The point about hand-fitting is well taken. MS has their own ideas MW about ergonomics (and everything else). I think I misunderstood what you said here in my last reply. Sorry. -- Cheers! Wayne Howard Using The Bat! version: 2.02.3 CE Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem - I may have figured it out!
Hello Wayne, On Friday, February 6, 2004, at 2:29:06 PM, you wrote re: Scroll Wheel Problem: I may have figured it out! TB does not seem to like the setting of Scroll one screen at a time with non-microsoft mice. That is the setting I always use. For those of you who say that scrolling works for your Logitech, do you have it set to do a whole page at a time? If not, please try that setting and report back. A whole page at a time is supposed to have a value of -1. It appears that TB does not know what to do with this setting. If I set it to a specific number of lines, it seems to work. -- Cheers! Wayne Howard Using The Bat! version: 2.02.3 CE Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello malexander Thank you for your email dated Friday, February 6, 2004, 8:09:57 PM, in which you wrote: WM Do you think Mr Gates will fix a problem I've got with IE as quickly? m If you don't like IE,... I was being facetious. Or trying to be. -- Regards William http://www.residues.info Flying with The Bat! www.ritlabs.com/the_bat Windows 2000 Pro 2195 Service Pack 4 Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Wayne- Friday, February 6, 2004, 11:29:06 AM, you wrote: WH partially recognize the scroll settings. It's still not scrolling a WH screen at a time when it does work. Sometimes it is more than a WH screen. Stefan replied that he thinks he's solved the problem - the mouse driver apparently sends a non-standard message from the scroll wheel, and he's accomodating in in the next release. WH I think I misunderstood what you said here in my last reply. Sorry. g Meanwhile, I'm here staring at a MS ergonomic keyboard that was recommended by a client and trying to get my hands into MS's version of how I *should* be typing. My typing speed has slowed down considerably and my typos-per-minute rate has gone way up. -- -Mark Wieder Using The Bat! v1.63 Beta/7 on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4 Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem - I may have figured it out!
Hello malexander, On Friday, February 6, 2004, at 3:18:54 PM, you wrote re: Scroll Wheel Problem - I may have figured it out!: m Yes, I think you've solved the problem. I hope Stefan is reading m this. I switched my trackball to 6 line scroll (the only option m other than screen, or none) and it works. The interesting thing is m that it now scrolls a whole screen *not* 6 lines. You are absolutely m correct - this is a problem with how TB reads the mouse driver output. m If I switch back to screen, TB stops scrolling again. m However, I can't leave it in 6 line mode, because then it only scrolls m 6 lines in every other app, which is not what I want. This HAS to be it. I just received this reply from a developer who fixed a similar problem in another application for me (and other users) about 2 years ago: (I have documented all of this in bug report # 0002480): Do you have your wheel set to scroll a page at a time? If that's the case then the _only_ idea I've had was that maybe I originally wasn't handling the case properly when the system scroll lines setting (obtained by calling SystemParametersInfo(SPI_GETWHEELSCROLLLINES,...)) returns -1. I have a vague memory that I didn't know about this behaviour originally and thought that SPI_GETWHEELSCROLLLINES would always return a whole number of lines to scroll. If it returns -1 you are meant to treat each scroll message as moving a whole page in either direction -- Cheers! Wayne Howard Using The Bat! version: 2.02.3 CE Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Mark, On Friday, February 6, 2004, at 3:52:34 PM, you wrote re: Scroll Wheel Problem: MW Wayne- MW Friday, February 6, 2004, 11:29:06 AM, you wrote: WH partially recognize the scroll settings. It's still not scrolling a WH screen at a time when it does work. Sometimes it is more than a WH screen. MW Stefan replied that he thinks he's solved the problem - the mouse MW driver apparently sends a non-standard message from the scroll wheel, MW and he's accomodating in in the next release. See my last message... I think several of us have come to the same conclusion at the same time! This is great news!!! WH I think I misunderstood what you said here in my last reply. Sorry. MW g Meanwhile, I'm here staring at a MS ergonomic keyboard that was MW recommended by a client and trying to get my hands into MS's version MW of how I *should* be typing. My typing speed has slowed down MW considerably and my typos-per-minute rate has gone way up. I have used them for several years! They're great, but it does take a few days to get used to it. Now, I find standard keyboards awkward! The only downside is that it the split angle is set. I am now using a Kinesis Maxim which allows you to vary this angle. I need it wider than what Microsoft sets it to. Thanks everyone for your all of your help in discovering what was causing this! -- Cheers! Wayne Howard Using The Bat! version: 2.02.3 CE Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello malexander Thank you for your email dated Friday, February 6, 2004, 8:36:10 PM, in which you wrote: m I realise. I was trying to be helpful :) Ah! Sometimes it's difficult to know :-) I did take notice of your suggestion but I'm using MyIE2, and very good it is too! -- Regards William http://www.residues.info Flying with The Bat! www.ritlabs.com/the_bat Windows 2000 Pro 2195 Service Pack 4 Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem - I may have figured it out!
Wayne- Sounds like the problem is nailed, but I'm with that developer on this one: I would assume that a -1 returned from a number-of-lines API call would mean an error condition occurred. -- -Mark Wieder Using The Bat! v1.63 Beta/7 on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4 Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Bill, On Wednesday, February 4, 2004, at 9:27:45 PM, you wrote re: Scroll Wheel Problem: BBTE At 9:16 PM on 2/4/2004, malexander typed ... m I started all this off when I complained that my that my Logitech m Trackman cordless wouldn't work in TB and got several people telling m me their rodents worked fine. At least I'm glad to know it *isn't* m just me. BBTE I have a Logitech MX500 and the scroll wheel works properly, but there BBTE are two buttons that scroll up and down in most applications. The BBTE cursor changes in TB, but no scrolling occurs EXCEPT in the editor (I BBTE just tried it in this message and it works.) How does one contact the authors of this product to get some resolve on this ongoing issue? -- Cheers! Wayne Howard Using The Bat! version: 2.02.3 CE Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Wayne Howard [EMAIL PROTECTED] @ 5-Feb-2004 9:35:56 AM Scroll Wheel Problem mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] How does one contact the authors of this product to get some resolve on this ongoing issue? 1) Send a bug report using Help - Feedback - Bug Report 2) Search for your problem at the bug tracking web site: http://www.ritlabs.com/bt 2a) If you find your bug, check its status and possibly add a bug note or reopen it. 2b) If you don't find your bug, submit a new one. -- Chris Quoting when replying to this message is good for your karma. With a rubber duck, one's never alone. Using The Bat! v2.02.3 CE on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Chris, On Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 4:36:07 PM, you wrote re: Scroll Wheel Problem: C 1) Send a bug report using Help - Feedback - Bug Report C 2) Search for your problem at the bug tracking web site: C http://www.ritlabs.com/bt C 2a) If you find your bug, check its status and possibly add a bug C note or reopen it. C 2b) If you don't find your bug, submit a new one. Thanks. Just did. I was not aware this existed! -- Cheers! Wayne Howard Using The Bat! version: 2.02.3 CE Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Stefan, On Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 4:30:09 PM, you wrote re: Scroll Wheel Problem: ST However, I've found that some mouse drivers use ST non-standard behaviour by default and may need some tweaking... Such as? I have tried all of the settings available with my mouse drivers and also several version of the drivers. thanks! -- Cheers! Wayne Howard Using The Bat! version: 2.02.3 CE Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Stefan- Thursday, February 5, 2004, 1:30:09 PM, you wrote: FWIW, my MS Wheel Optical Mouse 1.1A works flawlessly, too, once I discovered the trick of selecting the proper pane... -- -Mark Wieder Using The Bat! v1.63 Beta/7 on Windows 2000 5.0 Build 2195 Service Pack 4 Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Mark, On Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 10:53:50 PM, you wrote re: Scroll Wheel Problem: MW FWIW, my MS Wheel Optical Mouse 1.1A works flawlessly, too, once I MW discovered the trick of selecting the proper pane... The problem does not occur with Microsoft mice. Unfortunately, Microsoft does not make any mice that fit my hand correctly. -- Cheers! Wayne Howard Using The Bat! version: 2.02.3 CE Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Douglas, On Monday, December 15, 2003, at 1:28:28 AM, you wrote re: Scroll Wheel Problem: DH Hello Michael other TB! list members following this thread, DH On Sunday, December 14, 2003, you wrote: MSG I'm using TB 2.02.3 on a computer running Windows XP. DH I'm using TB! 1.62r and running WinXPPro. MSG For some reason, my mouse scroll wheel doesn't work in TB. It's fine MSG in all my other programs, but not in TB. I'm using a Logitech MSG MouseMan Wheel connected to a USB port and I'm using Logitech's MSG mouseware software to configure the mouse (can't seem to locate the MSG version number). DH Logitech's trackball is the best cursor solution there is, IMO. MSG Anyone else have this problem? MSG Any suggestions how I can get the wheel to work? DH Yes. Download, install and configure KatMouse for TB. It's freeware DH and will give you scrolling in any app., even old win apps. DH KatMouse - mouse wheel utility for Windows DH http://kickme.to/katmouse DH http://eduard.hiti.bei.t-online.de/ I reported this problem several versions ago and it still has not been fixed. I too have a Logitech mouse that works in all other applications. I just purchased a Contour mouse it has the same problem with only The Bat. I wish the developers would look into this (or give me my money back). :( -- Cheers! Wayne Howard Using The Bat! version: 2.02.3 CE Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Douglas, Sunday, December 14, 2003, 10:28:28 PM, you wrote: DH Logitech's trackball is the best cursor solution there is, IMO. It's hard to find anything more subjective than ergonomics, especially given the wide variation in hands. -- Cheers, Ken Using The Bat! v2.02.3 CE on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Michael, MSG Anyone else have this problem? Any suggestions how I can get the MSG wheel to work? Under Windows XP Professionnal SP1 Fr, and an old Logitech keyboard+mouse wireless (the keybaord has only three special buttons), the wheel works fine. I have the following drivers/softwares: - keyboard: it213fra.exe - mouse: mw973fra.exe I found no options in the settings for disabling the wheel. -- Regards, Francismailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Michael, On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 00:25:57 -0700 GMT (14/12/2003, 14:25 +0700 GMT), Michael S. Greenbaum wrote: I'm using TB 2.02.3 on a computer running Windows XP. For some reason, my mouse scroll wheel doesn't work in TB. It's fine in all my other programs, but not in TB. This won't help you much, but I have no problems with the scroll wheel: At home I use a Creative mouse (I didn't know that brand either, it was the cheapest), and the driver installed itself from the Windows directory upon first startup after I had connected it to the USB port. Win98. In the office I use XP Pro with an HP mouse, but I don't know about the driver, as the IT department installed everything for me when I started. In fact, the beauty of being able to use the scroll wheel with TB in the office was the reason why I bought such a mouse for my home computer. -- Cheers, Thomas. Moderator der deutschen The Bat! Beginner Liste. Infant Grows Sideburns During Visit to Graceland Message reply created with The Bat! 2.02.3 CE under Chinese Windows 98 4.10 Build A using a Pentium P4 1.7 GHz, 256MB RAM Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hi, On Sunday at 11:25 PM you wrote: MSG Anyone else have this problem? Any suggestions how I can get the MSG wheel to work? I use a logitech mouse and have no problems with the scroll wheel working. I chose not to install the mouseware software. Maybe uninstall the mouseware software and see if that works. -- Darrin The Bat 2.02.3 CE --PGP Key Request-- http://www.speakeasy.org/~drich/pgp.html pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
Re: Scroll Wheel Problem
Hello Michael other TB! list members following this thread, On Sunday, December 14, 2003, you wrote: MSG I'm using TB 2.02.3 on a computer running Windows XP. I'm using TB! 1.62r and running WinXPPro. MSG For some reason, my mouse scroll wheel doesn't work in TB. It's fine MSG in all my other programs, but not in TB. I'm using a Logitech MSG MouseMan Wheel connected to a USB port and I'm using Logitech's MSG mouseware software to configure the mouse (can't seem to locate the MSG version number). Logitech's trackball is the best cursor solution there is, IMO. MSG Anyone else have this problem? MSG Any suggestions how I can get the wheel to work? Yes. Download, install and configure KatMouse for TB. It's freeware and will give you scrolling in any app., even old win apps. KatMouse - mouse wheel utility for Windows http://kickme.to/katmouse http://eduard.hiti.bei.t-online.de/ -- Douglas Hinds Current version is 2.02.3 CE | Using TBUDL information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html
