Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Angel,

A> Forgive me Claudius, but your response does not help the situation. You should've 
done with
A> this what I did..*take it into private*.

Angel, I will not continue the discussion about the topic beyond this
mail. But I think Steve's first email needed to be answered in this list.

Since Steve wrote that he still stands by everything he said and is
continuing to discuss my arguments with other people it is hard to believe his
apologies to "the list"; especially since his answer to my mail --
I don't think any other expression is more exact -- is simply fascistic.

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Steve Lamb,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:34:05 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 12:34:05 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Steve Lamb wrote:


>> You want me to spell check or read html-mails with other applications?

Steve> Yes.  No matter how good the RITLABS programmers are they will not be able
Steve> to build a spell checker as good as a team of programmers who have dedicated
Steve> themselves to building nothing but a spell checker.
100% correct

Steve> 


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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Steve Lamb,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:36:06 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 12:36:06 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Steve Lamb wrote:

(snip)
Steve> When did I say open?  Personally I use the CNTL, SHIFT and CNTL-SHIFT to
Steve> mark email that I want to *delete* leaving the mail I want to read alone.
which is the most efficient way to handle large amount of incoming
mail.
Anything which removes a large amount of data from further treatment
should be removed first...  otherwise you are reading unwanted stuff
all day...
I do the same, anything having passed my filters to the inbox gets
zapped if I think its rubbish.
Luckily I get very few things I donot really want but even there I
just flag the stuf I may have to read later or search for contents
just 'read' to get them out of the way...



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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Angel,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:12:12 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 7:12:12 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Angel wrote:

Angel> On Wednesday, January 12, 2000 at 16:04:18 ,Claudius scribbled:

CR>> Steve Lamb, is it time to leave this mailing list??? Do you have any respect
CR>> for other people in you? Respect for my culture?
Angel> Forgive me Claudius, but your response does not help the situation. You 
should've done with
Angel> this what I did..*take it into private*.
Angel> I don't like arguing of any kind. But when done in a public fora, let alone one 
which is
Angel> supposed to be a help/informative one, I absolutely detest it. It does not 
belong here k?

Angel> My suggestion is to take this offlist. Please? It has overridden the genre of 
this
Angel> particular thread AFAICT and is unneccesary.

Not only that, arguing in public rarely leads to a solution anyway...

Angel> Thanks buches, and havea great day! :D

Angel> Regards,
Angel> ~~~Angel


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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Steve Lamb,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:29:28 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 7:29:28 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Steve Lamb wrote:
Steve> Quite frankly, I don't care that someone's opinion is that the sky
Steve> is orange with leaf brown polka dots everywhere.  The fact is it is blue and
Steve> has been proven as such.
I wouldnt be too sure about that one
I agree its likely not orange with leaf brown polka dots though...



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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Steve Lamb,

with the email you dare to post here you show your shortcomings. You
are just getting really angry and aggressive; the lack of arguments or
your bad mood is not a reason to become personal insulting in a public
mailing list. With all your net-"culture" you are
breaking netiquette and your "standards" let you forget the primary
rules of social communication. Unfortunately, -- or should I say
fortunately? -- this discussion is at its end. And this because I
quoted in 1 out of 99 cases a different way than ">" and your dozen
rules.
I was trying to show you that there are different opinions about what
people consider to be the core of an email client, that some people
see some common points in the usage of news and emails, that sometimes
one can learn from people's opinions that usually do not work with the
internet. If you read all my mails, you should know that I never said
"I need html-writing here and now, I need a newsreader here and now, I
need a spell checker here and now...". YOU sound like your position is
the only possible, technically, ideologically correct position. And
not just your opinion.

YOU are not the online community.
YOU are the only one that has problems with that one single mail.

SL>>> Because the standard convention in the printed medium when quoting someone is 
radically different
SL>>> than here.

There is NO convention in printed media.

SL> The convention of the culture that you have entered.  I cannot believe I
SL> still have to argue over this with every newbie that comes into a new culture!

I am the newbie that 'entered the culture'? Watch your mouth, Steve
Lamb.

SL> You don't know how sad that makes me considering your utter lack of
SL> respect for the culture, its conventions and standards.
SL> Good.  Hopefully you'll straighten up your act.

My utter lack of respect for the culture? Straighten up my act? Steve
Lamb, is it time to leave this mailing list??? Do you have any respect
for other people in you? Respect for my culture?

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Steve,

SL> No.  The standard convention is to have quotes preceded with the > symbol.

There are different ways to communicate, to write emails, to quote. I
quote the way I want to. I exchange emails with enough people from
enough countries with enough experience that I decide how to quote in
what situation. If you can't cope with my quoting, don't read it. I am
open to new ideas from other people, you obviously need your standard.
If there would be a rule for jumping off a brindge, you probably
would use it.

SL> It has been that way for almost as long as I can remember.

'it has always been that way - and this is the way it should be! Our
grand-grand-grand father did it that way. Change is bad.'

SL> So let's just say for well over a decade and a half that is how things are done in 
this
SL> medium.

This is how you do it. 'Change is bad. I'm not that flexible'.

SL> Because the standard convention in the printed medium when quoting someone is 
radically different
SL> than here.

Steve, what are you talking about? What convention? I can't believe
this. 'Change is bad!'

>> The idea of exchanging news, opinions or help is similar. I read mails from
>> other people, I read my paper mail, postcards, I answer email, paper mail,
>> postcards and even news from news.xxx.yyy .
SL> And, your point?  None of that refutes my statement that the way that they
SL> are traditionally dealt with are radically different.

'Traditionally'?? 'Change is bad!'

>> Right! He answered to 'the ideology' with technical aspects, because
>> there are no visual (or 'ideology') differences!
SL> Uh, yes, there are.  Scoring, for one.

Where?

SL> You didn't make that clear.  I read it that you was saying that TB! was A+
SL> software engineering.  I do not consider it so given that it doesn't even
SL> conform to the standard CUA keys for marking items in a list context.

Standard? CUA? Tradition? Is this the reason why you don't want new
features in TheBat! ? You are everywhere talking about conventions,
standards. It sounds to me that your 'decade and a half' in this
'culture' have made you inflexible. I help dozens of people from each
age to start working with their computer, the internet, email, ftp and
so on. It sometimes is hard to convince them to use and respect some
conventions that make internet easier, but standards and conventions
is not all there is in live. That black/white glasses is not good!

Your 'standard'-mail really made me look astonished.

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Steve,

SL> No, they do not.  Do you really want me to get into my rant about how
SL> email clients are a shadow of what they could be based on my experience with
SL> past software on older hardware?

They serve well for people receiving/sending less than 10 emails/day
and that is why they are email clients that cover the basics.

>> I'd rather have spell checking than IMAP. I'd rather have html-viewing
>> than IMAP.
SL> Neither have anything to do with the core of an email client and can be
SL> provided with other applications.

Right! This is all optional. I wanted to make clear, that spell
checking to me - personally - is more important than IMAP. You said
IMAP was core. You both say that you want the core of the mailer
should be worked on first; my point is that I consider different
things to be basics of an email client and on that should be worked,
too.

Again:
SL> and can be provided with other applications.

You want me to spell check or read html-mails with other applications?
That's why I use TheBat!
I want to have IMAP implemented best as it can be - as a lot of other
features Stefan described. And not just IMAP.

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Steve,

SL> Sure it does.  Let's take, for example, non-conformity to the CUA
SL> standard.  Open up TB, pick a folder with > 10 messages in it.  Now, on the list
SL> view do this.  Select message #1.  Hold shift and select message #3.  Now,
SL> press control and select message #6.  Now, still holding control, hold also
SL> shift and select message #10.  The end result should be messages #1-#3, #6-#10
SL> selected.  TB!, however, deselects #1-#3 when you do the second shift and you
SL> only get #6-#10.  It does not recognize the CNTL-SHIFT behavior.

So what? You'd change this, RITLABS doesn't, maybe it is easy to
change, but is it really important? There are 10E+10 things that are
more important than opening 10 mails simultaneously!! Standards are
important, but if specification XY is not sooo needed, I'd skip it,
too, until I find the time.

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Alexander,

>> I'd rather have spell checking than IMAP. I'd rather have html-viewing
>> than IMAP.

AVK> That's only you, please speak for *yourself* only;-)

Alex, do you read what you quote?? ;) "I'd"
 ~~~
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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Stefan Tanurkov]

Hi Christopher, 

CJT> I  have  just  reminded  myself a question: what about unicode (utf-8)
CJT> support?

(Interview continues :-)  It will be supported, of course. :-)


Regards,
 Stefan 

..."Hi-ho, hi-ho, it's hand grenades I throw..."

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Oleg Zalyalov]

Hello, the Bat! list recipients,

Tuesday, January 11, 2000, Thomas Fernandez wrote to George M. Menegakis about
Interview with RITLabs! Finally!:

GMM>> So mail reading means at least you should have a way to
GMM>> fetch/read/write/send/organize/search mail.

TF> You *are* describing Outlook here.

I think George meant organize mail. Outlook also have common organizer
appointments, tasks, etc.

If you mean Outlook Express, OE has also news reader.

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Steve Lamb,
On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 23:12:50 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 2:12:50 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Steve Lamb wrote:

Steve> Tuesday, January 11, 2000, 7:43:06 PM, tracer wrote:
>> Actually I would like the bat to do it with a buildin or addon locally
>> running SMTP server, ie not involving the isp.

Steve> *cough*  Uhm, very bad idea.  I would rather see RIT put a full browser
Steve> into TB! than put in an SMTP server.

why a bad idea?
I would prefer an easy external way to do it but sofar I havent seen
one
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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Oliver Sturm,
On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:59:38 +0100 GMT your local time,
which was Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 1:59:38 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Oliver Sturm wrote:

Oliver> Hi all,

Oliver> IMHO,  this  is  mainly  loads of discussion about a piece of software
Oliver> that's  supposedly  arriving  somewhere  in  the  near  future. What I
Oliver> noticed  about  the  interview was mainly that there is no single hard
Oliver> fact  about  that piece of software available. There's some "of course
Oliver> this  will  be in it" and "that has a high priority", but I didn't get
Oliver> the  impression  there  will be anything to really look at in the next
Oliver> few months at least.

Oliver> So,  what new features will TB 1.40 bring? That seems more interesting
Oliver> to me.
Agreed, I think the whole interview was meant to make us discuss what
we think of several proposals. NOT a review of what is written
already
They want the feedback on what to put in and what not
NOT to discuss whats already in it
Many answers indicated that they can do things in very different ways
and they arent sure yet.
This means to me the program is still very much in the design stage
and it could take them another 3 months before it looks like anything
we want to use...
Especially as with the mailboxes it will be a one way trip.

Oliver> IMVHO, of course.

Oliver> Oliver Sturm

Oliver> --
Oliver> main() { printf(&unix["\021%six\012\0"],(unix)["have"]+"fun"-0x60);}
Oliver> --
Oliver> Oliver Sturm / <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Oliver> Key ID: 71D86996
Oliver> Fingerprint: 8085 5C52 60B8 EFBD DAD0  78B8 CE7F 38D7 71D8 6996


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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Alexander V. Kiselev,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 00:43:31 +0300 GMT your local time,
which was Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 4:43:31 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:


Alexander> Therefore I wish to solidarize with those who are *against* adding HTML 
Alexander> editing, news-reading, virus-checking and web-browsing capabilities. I 
think 
Alexander> these are *bad ideas*. IMHO, of course;-)
HTML editing, 100% against it...
Let them do it in Notepad (g) if they want/can.

I would like to see a newsreader though, but not merged as anything
multi threading / multiserver would speed my gathering of files/news
up. Essentially system throughput from the news server is better.
But I wouldnt want it in the mail program.


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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Thomas Fernandez,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 02:57:24 +0800 GMT your local time,
which was Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 1:57:24 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Thomas Fernandez wrote:

LG>>> - Will v2.0 support hooks for virus scanning attachments to messages?

SL> *VERY* Bad.

RB>>> Why the heck (sorry) is that "*VERY* bad"?? That's something very
RB>>> useful, IMHO.

MA>> Because  it's  not  necessary,  any  good  scanner will scan your mail
MA>> database  anyway.

Thomas> I agree with this. It will only your system down. Supposing you have
Thomas> an active virus-scanner running anyway, which you should. :-)
100 agreed, but on the other hand if they arange a plugin ie, like the
editor debate, use internal one,  external one, or none, I donot mind.
I have sofar never been caught by a virus but on the other hand I
dump exe's, docs, xls and all that stuff direct in the bin unless its
archived.


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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Steve Lamb,
On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 11:09:14 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 2:09:14 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Steve Lamb wrote:

Steve> Tuesday, January 11, 2000, 10:55:44 AM, George wrote:
>> Fetching and sending mail could be done using external dedicated program.
>> For the convinience of users it could be great to implement a way to
>> communicate with the mail server.

Steve> Actually, it is done by external dedicated programs.  They're called SMTP
Steve> servers.  ;)
Actually I would like the bat to do it with a buildin or addon locally
running SMTP server, ie not involving the isp.


Steve>Or constantly burnt the coffee.  ;)
Or constantly having to tweak it to keep it running...


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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Steve,

>> Either way, TheBat! is not *just* for
>> fetch/send/store/search mail.

SL> No, and that is the problem.  An email client should be just for that.
SL> Outlook would not do because it is not an email client by any stretch of the
SL> imagination.

Hahaha, Steve -- thank you for your serious argumentation...
I don't want an email client just for that. BTW, TheBat! handles all
this and it should go or a lot more.

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Steve,

SL> clients have a rotten core.  Sure, they look pretty, but bite into it, really
SL> sink your teeth into it and you find it is sour inside with no substance.

I don't think so. Almost all mail clients do perfectly offer all the
options you described -- and George described to be besic features.

SL> TB! is good in some areas (database management) than other clients and
SL> worse in other areas (IMAP).

I'd rather have spell checking than IMAP. I'd rather have html-viewing
than IMAP.

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello George,

GMM> Let's draw a line.
GMM> In order to read mail you should

I did not mean hairsplitting. You do.

GMM> So mail reading means at least you should have a way to
GMM> fetch/read/write/send/organize/search mail.
GMM> All the other things are optional.

So by that rationality 95% of TheBat! functions are by now optional.

GMM> If your coffee machine blew out at random times you would have rather
GMM> different opinion.

It does not, neither does TheBat!

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Oliver Sturm]

Hi Allie Martin,

On Dienstag, 11. Januar 2000 at 21:42:55 you wrote:

> b) To move old messages to ...

> For the b) option a browse button with the ability to select a destination
> folder, even across accounts would be nice.  This makes for an archiving
> capability of sorts.

Seems  like  a good idea to me, especially with large folders being so
slow.


Oliver Sturm

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello George,

GMM> It doesn't go this way my friend.
GMM> A  mail  reader  is  made  for  one job. To read mail. As much as your
GMM> coffee machine is made to make coffee.
GMM> All  i  want  is  to read mail.

First: in *your opinion* "it doesn't go this way", my friend.
Obviously you consider a lot of features belonging to '*reading mail*'
- and not just reading mail, that's why you use TheBat! You think this
or that is essential 'mail reading', other people draw the line
somewhere else. So be careful using 'read mail' when you don't mean
Outlook...
I want my coffee machine to make coffe. But since I do not regard drip
'coffee' to be coffee, I want my espresso machine to mill beans, heat
water, generate pressure, cream milk and finally press the water
through the coffee - And all I want my coffee machine to do is:
COFFEE!

GMM> If  I  may, I don't think that Steve disagrees. Neither do I. The idea
GMM> is  the  excanging  of  information  but the implementation of news is
GMM> vastly different from the implementation of mail.
GMM> In few words, the idea is the same, the way to do it is very different

That's what I think! I never doubted the technical difference.

 What  I  think when I read George's comment "Newsreading is a VERY
 VERY different [...]
SL>>> He  never  said the reading was the same, he was talking just the
SL>>> technical level.

>> Right! He answered to 'the ideology' with technical aspects, because
>> there are no visual (or 'ideology') differences!

GMM> See above.

See above.

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Steve,

SL> "optional" items to make it comparable to Bat v1.x?  You are aware that by
SL> virtualizing everything in the manner they have described they are adding in
SL> several layers of complexity?  Each layer has its own potential for bugs.

Then your conclusion will be: do not try to make complex software.
Doesn't work for me.

SL> not directly related to the main task at hand, *reading email*.  They are
SL> doing this without that core application's full potential even being
SL> completely realized.

If you just want to *read mail* you can use Outlook...

SL> I'd rather you learned how to quote properly first.  This is a killer for
SL> me to read in any intelligible fashion.

A good start for any serious discussion, he?
Steve Lamb, I'd rather you had learned how to choose your words
properly; please do not tell me that "I have to learn how to
quote properly" that way, this is ridiculous.
Are you underlining quotes in your newspaper with blue? I chose to
quote that way, alright? Most of the quotes where so short, that I
rather included them in my discussion, O.K.? Secondly, I wanted to make clear to 
everybody who I quoted.
Sorry if this one time didn't fit your aesthetic feeling or the processing of chunks.

SL> The programmers of RITLABS only have so much time on their hands.  It
SL> is finite.  They do not live in a warp bubble where one day for them equals a
SL> month for us.

Thank you for pointing that out.

SL>   Time they spend coding other projects means they aren't coding
SL> *this* one.

Let me guess: you then make the line in the relation between number of
projects and quality? It doesn't always have to be an exactly negative
linear relation, IMHO. BTW, it was not to be taken so seriously, and I
think this was clear.

SL> "You can have fast service, you can
SL> have quality service and you can have cheap service.  Pick two."

Well, I'll take 'quality' and 'fast service'! Or 'Quality' and 'cheap' would be
ok, too. Maybe RITLABS at least chooses 'quality'.

>> ideology: news and mails are "somewhat the same".
SL> They are not.

The idea of exchanging news, opinions or help is similar. I read
mails from other people, I read my paper mail, postcards, I answer
email, paper mail, postcards and even news from news.xxx.yyy .

SL> And that is my problem.  *IF* that is the case then it is another company
SL> that is drooling over the numbers of the "newbie" market and forgetting that

As exclusively for newbie market, you are right, here, but sometimes
newbies or 'outsiders' to speak generally, are able to bring in new
views or ideas that an involved person wouldn't have come up with.

>> What I think when I read George's comment "Newsreading is a VERY
>> VERY different [...]
SL> He never said the reading was the same, he was talking just the technical
SL> level.

Right! He answered to 'the ideology' with technical aspects, because
there are no visual (or 'ideology') differences!

>> This is A+ software engineering! We're trying to model communication
>> here!!
SL> A+?  No.  Good, yes.  Great, no.

I don't understand you. I wrote that it is A+ software engineering to
think about the similarity of news and mails regarding the purpose of
exchanging information, with the same properties, and you say 'good'.
Ok, B+, then, but I thought you were opposed to that opinion. BTW, I
never said that I'd like to have an integrated newsreader, but I can
understand why RITLABS is thinking about realizing it and I wouldn't
_hate_ this option.
To further explain my point of view: if some friends of mine want to
discuss this or that topic with equal minded people in the net, they
wouldn't care if by mail or news!

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello,

SL> Doesn't do multiple accounts nor does it have a decent overview of what is
SL> in even a single account.  Try again.

Outlook would do. Either way, TheBat! is not *just* for fetch/send/store/search mail.

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Mark Worsham,
On Mon, 10 Jan 2000 18:37:15 -0600 GMT your local time,
which was Tuesday, January 11, 2000, 7:37:15 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Mark Worsham wrote:


Mark> Hi Mark -


Mark> If they say that they can add functionality without bloating the code, who am I
Mark> to argue?  If any of you guys that are complaining about the added functionality
Mark> causing code bloat want to send me the e-mail program that you wrote, I'll be
Mark> more than happy to try it.   :)
Well, as it seemingly took one month to make the first bat


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tracer

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mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Jason Thompson]

Hello Steve and Bat Buddies,

Points taken. (and I'm out of things to say :)

I suppose it's harmless to add news support to TB because if you don't
like it, use something else. But if news is implemented, I hope they'll
still concentrate their development efforts toward the email aspect of
TB.

I doubt if we should be too concerned though, because I'm sure RITLabs
has been reading all our outcries and know that if they implement Usenet
and screw it up, they're going to catch all hell from tbudl'ers. >:)

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Jason Thompson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If two wrongs don't make a
right, why not try a third?

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Derek Cedillo]

Hello John,


Written in response to your letter of Monday, January 10, 2000, 10:46:37 PM:

[SNIP]

JS> ii) I occasionally have need to approve news postings on a private moderated
JS> newsgroup. Since these arrive via mail, it would be nice to be able to
JS> inject them into the news system directly rather than cut'n'paste into
JS> a separate newsreader.

I'm not sure about the technology here, but can it be done by an
additional X:header, or whatever. I've never programmed email clients
or otherwise, but I thought you could post to a newsgroup if you just
got the header right...at least, that's one way I used to do it in
college.

So, ideally, couldn't they just add a newsgroups header, and meet your
needs? It could be in the "View" pull down menu as being "toggle-able"
(like that word? :)


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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Derek Cedillo]

Hello Steve,

*ACK* You mean we agreed?  ;)

Derek


Written in response to your letter of Monday, January 10, 2000, 11:32:06 PM:

SL> Monday, January 10, 2000, 7:55:48 PM, Derek wrote:
>> I guess the masses want bundled apps. I hate 'em.  I'm mad at opera
>> for considering an email client and an improved newsreader. Can't they
>> just stick at what they are good at?

SL> You and me both.  I don't mind them doing operamail.com, but having the
SL> integrated "clients" was a bit much.




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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Derek Cedillo]

Hello Paul,


Written in response to your letter of Monday, January 10, 2000, 10:31:21 PM:

 

P> I  don't  need  a Gravity replacement, just an excellent email program
P> that can post to newsgroups when needed and run local newsgroups via
P> its own internal server.

Really, try to give Xnews a try. I think you'll like it:
http://xnews.3dnews.net

In my personal usage, I find that I use Email and Newsgroups *so*
differently, that I can't even see the synergy anymore.  My newsreader
writes like an email program, and everything gets kept in there. Even
better, my newsreader keeps public (postings) and private (email's)
sending addresses, allowing me to post and be spam free.

I rarely post personal replies to newsgroups, but when I do, I can
cc: myself, to keep a copy on my email program, and then the replies
come in through email. That's the way I prefer it...

P> Plus read the HTML of a large number of newsletters by email.

I'm torn by this. I hate bloat, but I'll concede the need for HTML
reading (at least in part) simply because it's becoming part of the
times.


P> Ducks the flak!  



Derek

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Derek Cedillo]

Hello Mark,

*exactly*

Derek


Written in response to your letter of Monday, January 10, 2000, 8:06:44 PM:

MA> Hi Steve,

MA> Tuesday, January 11, 2000, 12:28:21 AM, you wrote:

>>> but that does not really appeal. Any suggestions for another Windows MUA
>>> that come close to TB, as it is now?

SL>> PMMail?  *shrug*

MA> Yes ,exactly  a choice of one, TB really cannot compete with the "all
MA> in one "  no-brainer LookOut type appz they should stick with what they
MA> are good at, they have a niche market of users who appreciate a mostly
MA> RFC  compliant  client which does not attempt to be "all things to all
MA> people".  If  you  try  to  do  that you end up with the lowest common
MA> denominator,  and might as well use LookOut. I appreciate that RIT are
MA> a  business,  and should try to maximize their user base, but they are
MA> on   a  hiding  to  nothing  competing with LookOut and Eudora so they
MA> would be better off keeping their niche market happy (i.e. most people
MA> on  this  list).  Their "natural" market is the new Linux user looking
MA> for something more friendly than Fetchmail/Sendmail et al, as you have
MA> pointed out in the past there is nothing currently in Linux that meets
MA> the needs of a user with multiple ISP accounts. XFMail comes close but
MA> the interface needs work, and xforms are not Open Source AFAIK.




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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Derek Cedillo]

Hello Mark,

I agree with you mark. I REALLY like TB from the short time I've used
it. And planned to complete my migration from Pegasus Mail shortly...

I don't like do-all apps. I use Xnews for news, and Opera for web
browsing, and wanted to use TB for email. They should only be
integrated in as far as the ability to send a system call which calls
the program (i.e. pull up the other program for a news:// a mailto: or
a http:// doubleclick)

And it should be customizable so you can put ANY program in their with
it.

I guess the masses want bundled apps. I hate 'em.  I'm mad at opera
for considering an email client and an improved newsreader. Can't they
just stick at what they are good at?



Written in response to your letter of Monday, January 10, 2000, 6:59:11 PM:

MA> Hi Steve,

MA> Monday, January 10, 2000, 11:45:12 PM, you wrote:

SL>> Monday, January 10, 2000, 3:30:32 PM, Mark wrote:
>>>   Gone:-(

SL>> And this is supposed to mean, what, exactly?

MA>  Basically  I  got more depressed with every item of that interview, I
MA>  really  like  The  Bat!  as  it  is and would hate to see it become a
MA>  bloated  "do  it  all"  type  app,  I  suppose there is the option of
MA>  staying  with  a  version  1.xx? but that does not really appeal. Any
MA>  suggestions  for  another  Windows  MUA  that come close to TB, as it
MA>  is now?




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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Moosebreath]

Hello Steve,

Monday, January 10, 2000, 6:45:01 PM, you wrote:

SL> On Mon, Jan 10, 2000 at 06:25:00PM -0800, Jason Thompson wrote:
>> Usenet, on the other hand...Well, I know none of the technical aspects
>> of Usenet, but I've seen that MS Outlook smoothly integrates news and
>> mail into one client. I've always liked Outlook for that, although
>> that's the only thing. :) So, it seems to me that usenet shouldn't be
>> too much to add to TB. And if TB v2.0 has usenet in plugin form, then of
>> course you can just unload the plugin if you wish!

SL> That's just it, though, Lookout! "smoothly integrates news and mail into
SL> one client" but it doesn't offer everything a news client does.  News is not
SL> mail and mail is not news no matter how alike they look to the layman and how
SL> close the specifications are.

SL> There is no such thing as multi-post binaries in email.  

SL> Newsgroups aren't to anyone.  They are much more broadcast in nature.  As
SL> a result, the way you filter through the data is different.  For example, one
SL> of the most effective filtering schemes for news is scoring.  I've yet to see
SL> an "integrated" email/news client implement scoring for news since they treat
SL> it as "just another mail folder."  Scoring doesn't work as well for mail.

SL> How, exactly, will the client handle multiple news feeds, if at all?  Most
SL> email clients which do it treat the streams separatel.  However, it is common
SL> practice in usenet to cross-feed to get a complete feed.  There is no
SL> guarentee that a message will get to all points equally.  Again, since news
SL> isn't too anyone and a newsgroup is really more like a broadcast more than
SL> anything getting news from multiple streams and merging the articles (removing
SL> dupes) provides the best feed.  This is something most news clients don't do
SL> and something an email client team trying to play news client programmer will
SL> most likely never aspire to.

SL> Of course, they can do it, and, as someone pointed out, have it
SL> implemented well enough to be "good enough."  That is a problem, though.  We
SL> have plenty of "good enough" news readers.  We have plenty "good enough" web
SL> browsers.  We have plenty "good enough" email clients.  It seems what *ALL*
SL> email client programmers have missed (and web client programmers, and news
SL> client programmers) is that there is a subset that wants an exceptional email
SL> client *and* an exceptional news client *and* an exceptional web client but
SL> don't want it all in once since they understand it has proven, thus far, to be
SL> impossible to do!  

SL> Yet we still have web clients doing mail and news.  We still have email
SL> clients wanting to grab "discussion boards" (news).  We still have news
SL> clients still wanting to do mail.


Hm, there are lots of little, shall I say, creature comforts I'd
like in TB 2 but reinventing the wheel, Agent for instance, would be a
really bad idea in my humble opinion.

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Jason Thompson]

Hello Steve and Bat Buddies,

> I don't want to see RITLABS spend time competing with Opera Software
> when they still have a LOT of work to do on TB!. I don't want to see
> Opera Software compete with RITLABS, either.

I agree with you concerning the web browser RITLabs is planning. There
are three very good browsers out there, NS, IE, and Opera, (granted they
all have their ups and downs) and I think the only way RIT can come
close to competing with them is to devote 100% of their resources to it.
That would mean abandoning TB, and nobody wants that.

Usenet, on the other hand...Well, I know none of the technical aspects
of Usenet, but I've seen that MS Outlook smoothly integrates news and
mail into one client. I've always liked Outlook for that, although
that's the only thing. :) So, it seems to me that usenet shouldn't be
too much to add to TB. And if TB v2.0 has usenet in plugin form, then of
course you can just unload the plugin if you wish!

> I would have agreed with you but I'm just not seeing evidence of it
> and the "ideology" hinted to in the same paragraph as an added
> newsreader in an email client most certainly does not point in that
> direction.

Let's not assume to know what they meant without any specifics. A quote
comes to mind, but I can't supply a source: "From quick assumptions we
draw absurd conclusions." :)

> If TB! 2.x turns out unusable I will have no reason to keep with V1.x
> because...
> 
> 1: It will no longer have active development.
> 2: It will still have a broken IMAP implementation.

Well, you're right on that point. I can see how you would be concerned.
Let's just hope that TB v2.0 meets everyone's standards, preferably
exceed them.

-- 
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Jason Thompson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

A blood alcohol level of > .26
confers temporary immortality.

The Bat! v1.39 Beta/1

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Steve,

SL> And Opera sails above its competition.  I don't want to see RITLABS spend
SL> time competing with Opera Software when they still have a LOT of work to do on
SL> TB!.  I don't want to see Opera Software compete with RITLABS, either.

RITLABS software IMHO is evolving and accepting new ideas -- Opera
not. That's the advantage I see.

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello George,

GMM> The   only   thing   I   want   from   my   mailer   to   do   is  to
GMM> fetch/send/store/search mail.

There'S a pretty nifty onehm, well, I think it was called PINE ;)
!!

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Claudius Regn]

Hello Mark,

MW> Ritlabs is trying to add functionality that people have asked for.  I'm not too
MW> keen on the HTML support, but I don't have to use it.  I'm more than willing to
MW> try whatever they bring out, and if I don't like it, I will move to something
MW> else.  (I don't see that happening unless they _really_ blow it.)

MW> We need to keep in mind that Ritlabs is marketing this product to a wide
MW> audience.  This is not their hobby, it's their livelihood.  They are trying to
MW> create a product that a lot of people will want to purchase and use.

you can double underline each of your paragraphs :) !

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Mark Aston,
On Mon, 10 Jan 2000 23:59:11 + GMT your local time,
which was Tuesday, January 11, 2000, 6:59:11 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Mark Aston wrote:

Mark> Hi Steve,

Mark> Monday, January 10, 2000, 11:45:12 PM, you wrote:

SL>> Monday, January 10, 2000, 3:30:32 PM, Mark wrote:
>>>   Gone:-(

SL>> And this is supposed to mean, what, exactly?

Mark>  Basically  I  got more depressed with every item of that interview, I
Mark>  really  like  The  Bat!  as  it  is and would hate to see it become a
Mark>  bloated  "do  it  all"  type  app,  I  suppose there is the option of
Mark>  staying  with  a  version  1.xx? but that does not really appeal. Any
Mark>  suggestions  for  another  Windows  MUA  that come close to TB, as it
Mark>  is now?

Whats wrong with v1.x which is unbearable??

I think the whole interview was more to evoke reactions then to tell
us what really happens as it seems to me a significant amount of code
hasnt even been written yet...
it wouldnt surprise me if a real beta could be a 3 months away unless
you want to talk about running real buggy stuff.


As long as the emailer part works fine, relatively bug free and in the
way I want, I donot HAVE to use a newsreader or whatever part and 30k
of code is not interfering with my mail...

On the other hand, a lot of people may not want to upgrade to use a
version where the improvments are things they donot want to use.
It would have to be a real good newsreader to get me to switch from
Agent. Besides I already paid for it so why change.
HTML: Its difficult to avoid not having it as an email client, but on
the other hand if it supports external editors, what does it matter.
Can you imagine anyone using notepad or whatever to write an email in
html?? Or Multiedit/Ultraedit or whatever one likes...
I am more interested in not having to receive them in HTML.



Best regards,
 
tracer

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mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[tracer]

Hello Mark Worsham,
On Mon, 10 Jan 2000 15:47:47 -0600 GMT your local time,
which was Tuesday, January 11, 2000, 4:47:47 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Mark Worsham wrote:


Mark> Hi Leif -

Mark> Monday, January 10, 2000, 3:13:39 PM, you wrote:

LG>>> - How many of the items on the wish list are going to be addressed in
LG>>>   v2.0 that I didn't cover above?

LG>> I really cannot answer this question now, because v2 is going to be
LG>> very different. What I can say now is that I personally promise to
LG>> read the wish list carefully and do my best in fulfilling all wishes
LG>> (I think other our guys would agree with me).

Mark> Wow.  Can't wait until they get it out for testing.
reading the interview and the gmama testing stage and that of many
things they seemingly donot know what or how it will do things, I
wonder how much of the code is really ready...

Best regards,
 
tracer

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Re[2]: Interview with RITLabs! Finally!

[Jason Thompson]

Hello Steve and Bat Buddies,

I feel I should put in my two cents here, because most of the opinions
that are posted to this list are negative ones, critical to one aspect
of TB or another.

I support TB's growth into areas such as usenet and HTML because the
developers have so far proved to me that they are capable of creating
fast and very functional programs that are yet still compact. In my
mind, The Bat's wings let it fly far above all the other email clients,
and somehow the download package is always kept a fraction of other
clients.

I guess what I'm mainly trying to say is that I would be a bit weary
about some potentially bloating features being added to TB, but I have
faith in RITLabs to make these new features as efficient and compact as
possible. They have been successfully doing this so far. Besides, I
think creating a all-in-one 10mb download bloat program is probably
against RITLabs' ethics altogether. :)

Steve, I think you take this a bit too personally! What do you have to
lose? Even if RITLabs _does_ destroy itself by letting TB go "down the
crapper" from v2 and on, you can simply use the latest 1.x version and
still be a happy camper. :)

RITLabs has been very attentive to (and tolerant of) our (many, MANY)
complaints. Let's return the favor and trust they will continue to do so
until they do otherwise, hmm?

-- 
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Jason Thompson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

I intend to live forever--so far, so good.

The Bat! v1.39 Beta/1

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