Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions
MDP -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- MDP Hash: SHA1 MDP Hi John, MDP On 17 September 2000 at 08:32:16 GMT +0100 (which was 08:32 where I MDP live) John Rainer wrote and made these points on the subject MDP of "New user, lotsa questions": JR - all I want text to do is to fully word wrap at a fixed number of JR characters and to insert a blank line when I hit Return, but the JR autoformat and word wrap options still seem to do baffling things! JR Messages that are heavily edited seem to require both endless JR selection and alt-L keystrokes just to properly wrap. MDP That is because you have auto-format turned off. Ctrl-Shift-F is the MDP auto-format toggle key and I use it often. Most of the time I have it MDP on and edited text is re-flowed as I type. Thanks for the info, Marck, but I've tried the autoformat options and it still irritates. Pasting large amounts of text near the end of a line, in particular, always leaves a line outstanding and the cursor sometimes hops down to a new line instead of staying at the end of the pasted text, for reasons I haven't yet worked out. For instance, if I copy what I have written so far, with autoformat and wordwrap on, and paste it close to the end of a line, part of the copied text on one line goes way beyond the word wrap limit, even if I go on to a new para, so it's back to alt-l to bring it back in again. However, if I add a character to text within the offending para, it re-aligns automatically. Aaargh! I just want it to wrap like most other Windows program (drums heels on floor and screams). It also used to do other quirky things, like indenting new lines on hitting Return, which I think was template based and involved trawling through all the accounts I had set up to get rid of it. If there is a way to alter the default template settings, I wish I knew it before I had set up six accounts :( Cheers John Apart from that, Mrs Lincoln, did you enjoy the play? -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Januk! Sunday, September 17, 2000, 5:14:37 AM, you wrote: Why would they? They can't see what font you're using. But if you try to do any formatting with variable width fonts, it looks really bad. ^^ The word formatting should have a series of ^ characters under it. If it does not, then you aren't using a monospaced font, and thus aren't seeing what I intended. Of course I could use a RTF, but you're even less likely to be able to read them. I hope I can calm us down a bit. Karin made one good point about Eudora and fonts: You can change them with the click of a button. Since most "formatting" in e-mail is IMHO not that important (see Steve's or other's signatures) I use this feature in Agent sometimes. If there is a signature or some highlighting like yours I click on "FP", look at it and done. Nice feature. Oh, and Karin, I see aou are from the Netherlands. Not that far culturally from Germany, or? And that's where I am from and I can totally see your point with the tab/blank line but Steve is right, in e-mail and other electronic text blank lines for paragraphs are kind of standard. And other than in books or letters (but have a look at business letters!) I think it good. Yes, I am a professional writer, too, for some years now. - -- Using The Bat! 1.46 under Windows 95 4.0 Build 1212 C Dierk Haasis Our country is at that awkward stage: It's too early to shoot the bastards, and too late for working within the system to do any good. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5i iQA/AwUBOcS+M/To1oA8g8dLEQL99QCg3PDNdIPZ5UIHKjl/CZ253GBbWm8Anj+x iV2omuK3Y0oYYfGwFK8A3Aku =qXIm -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hello Karin! Sunday, September 17, 2000, 4:57:18 AM, you wrote: client. So I came here. And now you say I can't say chili peppers? Fuck. I am usually not the one to get personal on this list but ... can't you as a professional writer not find other ways to express your feelings? Isn't that what writing - especially good writing - is all about? Or ... are you ...? - -- Using The Bat! 1.46 under Windows 95 4.0 Build 1212 C Dierk Haasis Wenn man arbeitet, hat man keine Zeit, Geld zu verdienen. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5i iQA/AwUBOcTAu/To1oA8g8dLEQLVNACfe0esS1oznIDV79Cu1VfNlHp1cnMAoOGF pUxACPIr42u7VAheP8Mhi61s =SEi7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions
Hello All, On 17-9-2000 12:08:35, Steve wrote: S On Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 04:21:01AM +0200, Karin Spaink wrote: Is it now. S Yes, it has been explained to you several times. I have been on the net for six years and nobody ever told me that they were aggreviated by the fact that I use a proportional font to compose in and read my and theirs contributions with. S Most likely because you weren't trying to do anything more advanced than S set up a lunch date. Steve, You are very wrong here (and very arrogant too! (why?)) Karin is a Dutch Journalist and probably one of the most mailed persons (including lots of hate mails) here in the Netherlands. Karin, am I right? -- Fred The Netherlands Sybil: Oh, do get a move on! We've got a busy day. I've got the laundrymen coming. Basil: The laundrymen?! My God! A woman's work is never delegated, is it. Fawlty Towers Using The Bat! 1.46 Beta/6 -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions
At 17:01 17-09-2000 +0200, Fred van Veen kindly wrote: Karin, am I right? You are ;-) - K - -- "When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'" - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions
At 16:01 17-09-2000 +0200, Dierk Haasis kindly wrote: Sunday, September 17, 2000, 4:57:18 AM, you wrote: So I came here. And now you say I can't say chili peppers? Fuck. I am usually not the one to get personal on this list but ... can't you as a professional writer not find other ways to express your feelings? Isn't that what writing - especially good writing - is all about? Or ... are you ...? Yes, I am a writer and I am very capable of expressing myself in myriad ways. But when I get terribly annoyed and want to bring that point across in a straight and direct manner, expletives are very efficient. That's why we have them. The reason why I got annoyed was twofold: although I got a number of very friendly and helpful replies on this list, some people were very quick to write off my questions to newbeism and general lack of understanding (Steve Lamb spings to mind, who later even became downright insulting). Another reason is that TB's editor seems to have acquired religious status here: there are staunch defendors who will say that perseverance will bring enlightenment, while others grab a comment on TB's editor and use it in their personal crusade. Such ritual fights tend to irritate me. But I'll abstain from using expletives here in the future. (Good thing that I just had a new .sig btw. You won't mind me not quoting it ;-) ) - K - -- "When I make a word do a lot of work like that," said Humpty Dumpty, "I always pay it extra.'" - Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions
Thanks for the replies I have been getting so for. They are helpful and allow me to understand both the progam an dthe programmer's goals more clearly, and thus help me to make up my mind. First of all, new questions: 1. Why does my reply to Januk gets garbled in the Subject line and suddenly gets "Re[2]: etc" instead of your standard "Re: etc"? 2. How come that Ctrl-Z only works partially? What I added (new CR's) can be undone, but what I inadvertedly deleted cannot be brought back. On 17-09-2000 at 01:03, Januk Aggarwal kindly wrote: Karin Spaink typed: 1. If you move your cursor down in the window in which you are editing your mail (e.g. move it down to the next empty line), it goes down but stays in the same column (read: horizontal axis) and doesn't go to the beginning of the line or the last words in it, Yes, this is because TB supports a free caret interface. With this interface, you can use arrow keys or the mouse to put your cursor anywhere and start typing. This really helps when you're doing tables or lists. I severely dislike this feature. It is in itself a reason to give up The Bat (and explore other clients). But apart from my personal likes and dislikes, I don't think that your argument holds. Yes, this is a nice feature when you make a table; but how often do you make a table as compared to you editing your message and moving up and down through it? It would be nice as a bonus, not as an unturnoffable_standard. And if this indeed one of The Bat's prime focusses, I will reconsider my options. as it should (since the space after the last words is empty and not filled with trailing spaces). Is this a bug, or a feature that can be turned off? It's not a bug and it can not be turned off. If you get used to hitting the home and end keys, I think you'll find it pretty convenient. I am growing more used to it, but I find all the extra keystrokes a hassle. And it _is_ non-standard. 2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I want to, I like it, I need it because I rewrite a lot - I can't seem to add a new parapraph to a section. New paragraphs need a blank line between them. This makes your message more readable. That is more than just a matter of taste: it's a national habit. And I am not US or Canadian. To people I correspond with, it looks weird; and to my peers -- I am a writer -- it looks awkward. A tab is the marker for a paragraph, a blank line the marker for a new idea. Also this is necessary due to the way TB handles text editing. TB is a WYSIWYG text editor. What this means is the end of a line within a paragraph is marked by the same codes as any other end of line. See why this auto-formatting sucks? I inadvertedly deleted a chevron that preceded your reply, and since Ctrl-Z doesn't bring it back, TB's explicit ignoring of a CR prevents me from reformatting your quote. I can't put it back in order. I can't seem to start on a new bit of the quoted conversation on a new line; only when I add a blank line. This is as it should be given TB's implementation. Ok. I consider this a serious flaw, one that by itself could be enough to look elsewhere. See above for details. To work around this, you might want to get familiar with the ctrlshiftf shortcut. This toggles the auto-format feature on and off. Yes, it does! Thanks for that tip, it is highly valued, and have been using this trick in the rest of the mail. 'Cept when I reformatted the above, after having implemented your tip (I had to reformat, because I lost your chevrons again) each and every CR just before one of the origial chevrons, gave me one extra -- which I then had to delete. Listen. I am demanding. I know that. And I am not trying to piss you off. But I _am_ desperate for a mail client that has lots of features and can be fine-tuned to a huge degree. The reasons? I get heaps of mail (so I need good filtering and auto-replies), I type fast but with lots of errors (so they should be easy to correct and my cursor should be easy to focus), I use my mail client 10 hours per day. I hate the bloatware that Eudora is becoming and I dislike the road that they are taking. I have been using Eudora for 5 years. Basically, I want all it had plus some bug-fixing and less new (stupid) features. With the auto format feature on, you can't do the following. 1. Answer e-mail 2. Show off free caret power 3. Send mail 4. Enjoy. Ah, but you can... You're referring to tables, right? When you have an unpoportional font, it's so easy. Just _type_ a few spaces 3. The cookie file is a great feature and allows for rotating signatures. The help file is however not too helpful as to the format of the cookie file. After some experimenting, I discovered that each entry should have a line of its own, no line-breaks, and no empty lines between entries. But the cookies show up in one unbroken line whenever I start composing an e-mail or hit reply.
Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions
On 17-09-2000 at 01:27, Marck D. Pearlstone kindly wrote: Hi Karin, KS 1. If you move your cursor down in the window in which you are KS editing your mail (e.g. move it down to the next empty line), it KS goes down but stays in the same column Correct. This is not a bug. This is TB's (love it or hate .. and I personally love it) "virtual space". Place the cursor anywhere on the page, start typing and it will stick. It is, IMHO, the right way for fixed pitch WYSIWYG plain text editing to work. Ah, but I don't like pitcvhed fomts to begin with. And as I told Jurek: it feels as if somebdy is hammering it in. You _will_ have fixed fomts and even if you find your way around them. we will still make your message editor act asd if it were fixed font! they have, so far, been unable to persuade the authors to make it optional. Pity ;-) KS 2. The tab. When I have "auto-format" on - I want to, I like it, I KS need it because I rewrite a lot - I can't seem to add a new KS parapraph to a section. Nor can I end a paragraph, give a tab for KS indent, and continue: (example: this). See? The Bat's editor KS automatically purges the carriage return and moves the "tabthis" KS (see above) back to the end of the previous line. Or look at my KS garbled .sig: I can't seem to start on a new bit of the quoted KS conversation on a new line; only when I add a blank line. Then turn off auto-format. Also, you may have to encompass a new concept: in plain text, a paragraph needs a clear line to be clearly at an end. I won't repeat myself, but we're talking cultural differences here. In my country, you don't. And in my book, you don't either. I don't indent my paragraph starts so I leave auto-format on. Others do indent and have to have it off for that purpose. Ok, so it's an either/or thing. [cookie won't break] Introduce a '\n' (no quotes) sequence within the long line at the point at which you want it break. I'll try. Wait Yeah !! Thanks! KS 4. Although The Bat claims to have "HTML auto view" and while I KS have Options -- HTML auto view on, I get to see all the html-mail KS as plain text, tags included. Hang-on ... with tags? You mean like HTML ... /HTML? Then that doesn't even conform to true HTML standard. You might be talking about RTF (Rich Text Format) mail, which isn't HTML standard and might show as you describe. HTML mail usually consists of a plain text message with an attachment containing the HTML version of it. Jurek answered that one. It's old, imported mail. Something got fucked up in the conversion,. New mail looks ok. KS 5. When will the developpers add proportional KS fonts? I _hate_ proportional. I don't. It will make my plain text justified paragraphs look absolutely terrible. There's no discussing taste. But as I said: why both have the fixed fomt as the only alternative _and_ free caret? KS 7. I'd like to be able to tell The Bat to automatically focus on KS my Inbox when new mail has arrived. yes, it's a Eudora habit ;-) Suggestion: lose that habit and turn on the ticker (tm) ;-). I tried for a bit but it insisted on being over everything else -- plus, i still need to go to my inbox, and I don't have a filter report, and... Will you please be kind to this silly Eudora junkie who's trying to kick her habit? ;-) You can filter your mail on receipt and use the ticker to provide you with a virtual folder full of *all* of your new mail regardless of which folder it may have been filtered to. I, for one, would *not* want the current folder focus to move just because I have more new mail. courageously puts back the ticker cringes I don't want to have each and every header... I just would love to have a general overview. "The Bat" folder 3 new, Swans folder 6 new. etc... KS For the rest, I am quite impressed. And I'm sure I'll have more KS questions while I proceed to explore The Bat. TB is a *very* different animal. Enjoy your explorations. There's a lot under the bonnet and, usually, pretty good reasons for the quirks. Comfort me. I want a pat for all my brave exploring... :-0 - K - -- 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'%0D%0A -- Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions
A., Regarding your message dated: 17 September 2000... ACM I personally do like the free caret interface myself. Also, for me, ACM TB!'s editor took some time to get accustomed to. It was a period of ACM adjustment and giving and taking. The end result has been that the ACM shortcomings for me do not exceed the good points. If TB! were to ACM support an external editor, I would still use this one. I would agree with this myself. I took a while to learn the differences between the Windows standard editor functionality and TB!'s functionality but the free caret interface is something I find I take advantage of regularly simply because it allows me to easily lay out my text in a clearer and more 'creative' way. What does perplex me still is how exactly the tab key works. My usual experience from both Windows and Unix editors is that the tab key indents the cursor position (either by a control-character or by inserting extra white space as required) to the next 'tab-stop' which is normally defined as a regular series of positions along the text line - say ever 4,8,16 or however many characters. In TB!, I find the behaviour of the tab key to be almost random. Sometimes I'll get a desired effect - othertimes the tab key will jump the cursor to about 5 characters from the end of the line leaving a gap of about 60% page width. If anyone here has the wisdom or knowledge (or both?!) to explain what is going on, I'm a perplexed person waiting for enlightenment... :) Best wishes, Mark -- - Using TheBat! 1.46c Windows NT 4 0 1381 Service Pack 6 - Just4Fun - Freestuff, Humour and More! - http://just4fun.ipfox.com/ - Mark R Harding The Integrated Systems Group (Vision) Department of Electronics Electrical Engineering The University of Edinburgh, King's Buildings, Mayfield Road Edinburgh. EH9 3JL. Scotland. U.K. Phone: +44 (0)131 650 5662 Fax:+44 (0)131 650 6554 Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:http://www.ee.ed.ac.uk/~mrh/ - PGP-Key Available at: http://www.ee.ed.ac.uk/~mrh/pgp.html - -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions
Steve, Regarding your message dated: 17 September 2000... SL That is the Microsoft standard, not /A/ standard. There is a big SL difference. AFAIK the CUA (a standard) defines what keystrokes do, not editor SL behavior. There is a difference. True enough but given that TB! runs under Windows exclusively (unless I really missing something...) then I think it is fair to assume that the Windows Keystroke standard is an acceptable common standard that everyone already knows... it may not be a pleasant fact but I'm sure it's true. For curiosity's sake, I just looked at the options available in TextPad which is my preferred Windows editor for all my other text manipulation tasks. Textpad offers the following choices... TextPad Brief IBM Personal Editor Microsoft Applications Textpad 2 Wordstar I would assume that the target to hit to make the most users happy is the 4th one - the Microsoft Applications - given that it covers the most bases on a Windows platform. I don't know if any of the above approach the CUA standard you mentioned but I recall from the days I had to edit files under unix on a regular basis that I really disliked the emacs based editors because the keystrokes required were completely alien to me. Yes, I know that emacs can adopt Windows like functionality and that it probably is the most ultra-extensible editor in the world but I ended up using either nEdit for its Windows-like keystroke compatibility or vim if the job was quick and simple. I guess we'll not get anywhere without an editor that suits our own preferences but for the majority of windows users that does mean 'what they already know' and TB! isn't that. If they don't have the time/inclination to learn then they'll pass it over. I'm glad I invested the time to learn the editor - it's a benfit to me but maybe I'm just one of the lucky ones... Cheers, Mark -- - Using TheBat! 1.46c Windows NT 4 0 1381 Service Pack 6 - Just4Fun - Freestuff, Humour and More! - http://just4fun.ipfox.com/ - Mark R Harding The Integrated Systems Group (Vision) Department of Electronics Electrical Engineering The University of Edinburgh, King's Buildings, Mayfield Road Edinburgh. EH9 3JL. Scotland. U.K. Phone: +44 (0)131 650 5662 Fax:+44 (0)131 650 6554 Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:http://www.ee.ed.ac.uk/~mrh/ - PGP-Key Available at: http://www.ee.ed.ac.uk/~mrh/pgp.html - -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
Re[2]: New user, lotsa questions
On Saturday, September 16, 2000, 7:57:18 PM, you wrote: KS Please do not use language like this here. KS In that case, please inform subscribers via the majardomo welcome message. Most people do not need this spelled out for them, they just don't do it as a matter of course in a polite group. KS So I came here. And now you say I can't say chili peppers? Fuck. And even after being asked nicely, you still persist. KS KS There's no discussing taste. In your case, perhaps not. I, too, prefer to have a forum that is free of profanity. I do hope you find another email client and support list that pleases you. (quickly jumps in fireproof suit, awaiting the flamers attack :-) ztrader -- -- View the TBUDL archive at http://tbudl.thebat.dutaint.com To send a message to the list moderation team double click here: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe from TBUDL, double click here and send the message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You are subscribed as : archive@jab.org
