Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Wolfgang Kynast]

Hi Steve,

SL> Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 10:40:09 AM, Marck wrote:
>> Of course the external editor option looks more attractive all the time.

SL> OF course it does.

IMO the term 'external editor' is a little misleading.
It is possible to integrate such a component written
by another company quite smoothly, as Acrobat shows
with its reader. If the editor is provided e.g. as a
DLL, it could appear as integral part of TB.

That's the way I would like to see it.

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Wolfgang

Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA discussion lists

Using The Bat! 1.39 under Windows 95 4.0 Build   B
in Darmstadt, Germany,
on a 166Mhz Cyrix, 128MB SDRAM, half SCSI system ;-)

http://people.frankfurt.netsurf.de/wky/



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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Claude]

à  : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
de : Claude (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED])
le 18/01/2000, 23:36:39, heure française.
Objet : suggestion- / wish-list

Bonjour TBUDL,

En réponse à  message du 18/01/2000, 


SL> Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 10:40:09 AM, Marck wrote:
>> Of course the external editor option looks more attractive all the time.

SL> OF course it does.  You'd think with Unix folks building on pushing 30
SL> years of computing experience they'd get a few things right.  I still find it
SL> amusing that a lot of the things that Microsoft and Mac are dealing with now
SL> the 'nix crowd solved a good decade ago.

SL> And people wonder why I say those two, especially Microsoft, harm
SL> consumers.  ;)

SL>>> I  believe you're missing the point of having total control.

>> Perhaps, but it's not the point I was making.

SL> The point you made wasn't relevant.  ;)

>> With virtual space the four spaces are virtually there anytime you want.

SL> Nope.

SL> *Steve bounced on the END key until his keyboard breaks, darned thing
SL> doesn't go out the 4 spaces.*

>> (Okay, I accept that use of the End key for positioning to the point
>> beyond the four spaces has now been killed and that part of your original
>> intent has been wrecked - but those of us with multiple tentacles can reach
>> for the mouse and be blissfully unaware that the four spaces ever went
>> anywhere).

SL> *Steve then points out that in some editors that isn't needed since it
SL> retains the column that the cursor was last in, even on short lines, even if
SL> it positions the cursor on column 1 for the one line between.*  :)

>> OTOH, at least they're not cluttering bandwidth when you accidently forget
>> to go back to add what it was you were adding when you remembered something
>> else further back... etc.

SL> Feh.

SL> :%s/[^-- ]\s+$//g
SL> (If memory serves)




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Cordialement,

Claude.
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

La pensée du jour :
Who rules the rules ? - Maître Claude.


==
Message d'origine :

le 18/01/2000, à 21:39 :
Objet : suggestion- / wish-list



SL> ==

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Oleg Zalyalov]

Hello, the Bat! list recipients,

Tuesday, January 18, 2000, Steve Lamb wrote to [EMAIL PROTECTED] about
suggestion- / wish-list:

SL> Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 1:41:55 AM, Oleg wrote:
>> It is just my personal opinion said by the way that adding some kind of a
>> hook for external editor to TB! will not save time to RITlabs to be more
>> concentrated on mail-specific functions.

SL> Then you haven't thought it through.

SL> Add hook.  Once done, bugfix internal editor only.  Result, no more work
SL> on editor.  Where does that not equate to more time spent elsewhere?  A child
SL> of 5 could grasp that!  Someone, quick, fetch me a child of 5!

Ïîæèâåì  --  óâèäèì.  We'll live -- we'll see. Real life is not always
what  a  child  of  5 will grasp. I have strong doubts that this ideal
scheme is implementable in real life.

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Oleg Zalyalov. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Using The Bat! version 1.39
  under Windows NT 4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 6

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Tom Plunket]

TP>> do you EVER choose "typical installation"?

MDP> Absolutely never. What's your point?

My point was the fact that the people I was talking to took issue with
the fact that I stated these people were atypical Windows users.  I
was pointing out that I was, indeed, dead-on.

TP>> Plain-text formatting? That's ridiculous.

MDP> My  example was inane, I accept that. I stole it. From Steve Lamb. The
MDP> fact  that  I'm  trying  to get over to you is that TB's virtual space
MDP> works well for me and (I believe) others. "Ridiculous"? Is that fair?

Ridiculous is fair insofar as the example was made.

I never said that virtual space didn't work for you.  Never said it
didn't work for others.  Did mean to imply that not only does it seem
a strange choice as a default, it also seems to be a strange choice
with no alternative.

TP>> Except  that I don't want to fire up an external editor. I want to
TP>> use the internal one.

MDP> Not from what you are saying about the way it works. You don't
MDP> like the virtual space technology it uses and decry as
MDP> "ridiculous" the suggestion that it has any use. At least Steve
MDP> objects to it from the honest viewpoint that he would rather use
MDP> an external editor than compromise the features that other enjoy
MDP> in it.

I don't like virtual space.  I don't think it's ridiculous.  In fact,
quite the opposite; it took me a while to get used to programming
without it.  However, since I did, I prefer the non-virtual option.
Yes, I'm an old Borland user, having had my paws on Turbo C 1 and 2.

If such a change would compromise the integrity of the mailer, yeah,
I'd vote against it to.  However, I find that possibility highly
unlikely, and if it indeed happened, I'd have to raise real questions
as to the integrity of the package as a whole.

TP>> Power. You keep implying that useless features are powerful.

MDP> Useless  to  you, perhaps.

"Formatted text" is useless to me.  It also, IMO, has no place in
email.

MDP> IMHO you haven't even started trying to use it. There have been
MDP> numerous discussions and examples in this list over the time its'
MDP> been going of just how useful the TB editor's virtual space,
MDP> columnar capabilities and creative use of TAB can be.

Well, I don't know how one can have an opinion of someone else's
experience, but I'll lay it down for you.

I started programming 18 years ago.  All of the editors I used did,
indeed, have what we could call virtual space.

Six or seven years ago I was introduced emacs.  Virtual space wasn't
on by default.  I really don't even know for sure if it can do it in
an "out-of-the-box" kind of way.

I know what I like.  "Starting to try to use something" is almost 20
years old.  At what point can I claim that I know what it's all about?

MDP> I don't have the wit nor energy to recall them all right now for
MDP> what is clearly a closed discussion at your end.

I've seen one example of virtual space.

Now, I conceed one point: If columnar pasting gets all screwed up
without virtual space, well, I'd rather not take the MS approach and
screw up the columns (e.g. DevStudio in CUA mode).

TP>> What  I want is an editor that behaves the way I want it to. Don't
TP>> you?

MDP> Yes, of course I do. And I have it. I just don't want it messed up.

MDP> I've already said, if the NoVirtualSpace can be made optional *easily*
MDP> and  without adding needless bloat, then I don't see the harm...

We are in complete agreement then.  I don't see the sense in arguing
about it...

MDP> The only argument against that is one that has also been run here
MDP> about the adding of yet-another-darn-switch for yet-another-
MDP> flavour-of whatever else it is that has nothing at all to do with
MDP> how well TB handles email.

If something is trying to be a full-fledged email solution, then it
should be configurable to the user's content.

If they're not developing an editor they should stop right now.

It seems silly to do something part way, as it only alienates
potential users.  If that's what the developers and users of The Bat!
want, that's fine by me.  I'll probably keep using it regardless, if I
can come to learn the arcane keystrokes...  Virtual space isn't THAT
terrible, I just don't like it, and (I've said this before) coupled
with the keymap, the editor is VERY difficult for me to use.

So, then, on the arguement that you cite and seem to support, what are
your thoughts of adding NNTP support to The Bat!?  Certainly that
seems like a slightly larger proposition than a few checkboxes in the
Editor Setup window...  Honestly, if it goes in and sucks, The Bat! is
off of my computer.  I already have a mail/news solution that I only
use half of; I don't need two packages that do essentially the same
thing and only use parts of each...

-tom!

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Tom Plunket]

SL>>   I'm used to TB!'s internal editor, I don't much care for it. Being
SL>> used to it isn't part of that equation, either.

MDP> Yes  - but, in a now separate thread is the discussion about use of an
MDP> *external*  editor  to  handle  such  likes  and  dislikes rather than
MDP> subvert  what,  IMHO,  is a pretty well equipped plain text formatting
MDP> editor. Why support the views that would have the latter happen at the
MDP> possible expense of the former?

*I* don't want to be required to use an external editor.  Especially
when it comes down to what should be trivial to implement options.

SL>>   Just like some people don't like Unix even though their not being
SL>> used to it has nothing to do with it. Of course, in that case,
SL>> their wrong, but hey. ;)

He has a point here...  ;)

TP No better suited than an editor without virtual space.

MDP>>> And I believe you're missing the point because of old prejudices.

SL>> I  believe you're missing the point of having total control.

MDP> Perhaps, but it's not the point I was making.

But that's the point we're making.

MDP> With  virtual  space  the  four spaces are virtually there anytime you
MDP> want.  You'd still have to get the edit point back to that position to
MDP> make  use  of  them.

Right, so they're not *really* there, which may be the desired output.

MDP> OTOH, at least they're not cluttering bandwidth when you
MDP> accidently forget to go back to add what it was you were adding
MDP> when you remembered something else further back... etc.

Are they really gone? Does anybody know FOR SURE? If you hit 'space'
in column 255, you're not sending a 255 character line of spaces, all
generated to suit that one keypress? Just wondering...

-tom!

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Tom Plunket]

TP>>  Well,  you  two aren't typical Windows users. As it goes, virtual
TP>> spacel has some people who like it and others who don't.

MDP> Tom  -  that's  not  reasonable.

Which of you is a typical Windows sheep then?

MDP> We're both *very different users* who happen to agree on this
MDP> point.

Right, atypical of the standard Windows crowd.  Tell me, when you set
up Windows, does either one of you choose "Typical Installation"?  For
any software you get, do you EVER choose "typical installation"?

MDP> If  you  have  ever  used  Brief (and not just its' key mappings) then
MDP> virtual  space is something you *should* know how to use effectively -
MDP> and it *can* be used effectively, especially for formatting plain text
MDP> email.

I know BRIEF keymappings, and I know virtual space.  One without the
other and I'm lost.

MDP>>>  Might I humbly suggest you use TB as an e-mail
MDP>>> client a while longer.

TP>> Why, so these feelings get reinforced?

MDP> No  -  so  that  you  can begin to understand the power of the virtual
MDP> space for plain text formatting.

MDP> With space cansome things.
MDP>  virtual   you do  interesting

MDP> Without it - no possibility.

Oh yeah, that's really useful to me on a day-to-day basis.  Not.

Without it, I just hold down the spacebar for a couple of seconds,
then go into overwrite mode.  Not too tough.

TP>> Seriously, the reason I don't like virtual space have nothing to
TP>> do with the fact that I'm not used to it.

MDP> Now  you're  not  making  any  sense.  With virtual space - plain text
MDP> formatting;  without it - Tom is happier. It has everything to do with
MDP> what you are used to.

Plain-text formatting?  That's ridiculous.

TP>> I HATE being required to use the mouse.

MDP> Then you're not using virtual space correctly. I never touch the mouse
MDP> in TB when editing. In fact, the only time virtual space is a nuisance
MDP> for  me  is  when  the  mouse gets dragged into editing (eek - a pun -
MDP> curses; I thought I was cured).

Hey, but that brings up a question.  How much crap is tagged onto the
end of lines and the end-of document when The Bat! sends email if
you've cursored through "virtual space"?  What if you accidentally hit
a space somewhere, but didn't mean to?  Any way to find it?

I agree with Steve.  If I put four spaces on the end of a line, I want
them there.

MDP>>> The editor is one thing that suddenly leaps out as being very
MDP>>> well suited to the job it does for the /type of information/ it
MDP>>> works on.

TP>> No better suited than an editor without virtual space.

MDP> And I believe you're missing the point because of old prejudices.

Maybe so.  I have ZERO need for the type of formatting you hold so
important.  I am not an ASCII artist.  In fact, I could give a rat's
ass about doing that sort of thing.  *I* want my text to go out as I
type it, and I don't like stuff happening behind the scenes.  Virtual
space is "behind the scenes" since it adds spaces for you (or tabs,
who knows?) and doesn't let you know if you have trailing spaces...

TP>> I mean seriously, any text editor probably does a fine job at
TP>> editing text files. However, to have the broadest appeal you have
TP>> to appeal to the broadest market.

MDP> As  Thomas  said  in  his  reply  - the broadest market is not what is
MDP> available here - the free clients soak that one up.

And I replied to that.  If you have disagreement please thread that
over there.

TP>> In my memory, emacs does a fine job, is more configurable, and has
TP>> more features.

MDP> Now  we've  got  back to the "use an external editor" option. I'm just
MDP> trying to point out aspects of TB's internal editor which you may have
MDP> missed.

Haven't missed them.  At least, not that one thing you pointed out.

MDP> There's  nothing to stop you firing up emacs and using C&P to take the
MDP> edited  text back and forth between the emacs and TB until an external
MDP> editor option is introduced for TB (if ever).

Except that I don't want to fire up an external editor.  I want to use
the internal one.

MDP>>> "Don't bloat The Bat!". :-)

TP>> Hmm, glad that's your opinion because any intelligent programmer
TP>> wouldn't have set the system up to require a plethora of
TP>> underlying conditional coding to subvert the editor.

MDP> It depends on what the aims of the programmer were in the first
MDP> place and how sprawling the cursor placement logic is in the
MDP> code.

True.  If the cursor placement code is really sprawling, I feel sorry
for the maintainers.

MDP> It may well be a simple option to add ... if so then I withdraw
MDP> my objection to it being optional. OTOH if it adds more than 1kb
MDP> of code I would personally call that too expensive a gesture
MDP> merely to placate the die hard CUA fans who haven't yet really
MDP> discovered the power of the TB editor's formatting capabilities.

Power.  You keep implying that useless features are 

Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Oleg Zalyalov]

Hello, the Bat! list recipients,

Tuesday, January 18, 2000, Allie Martin wrote to Oleg Zalyalov about
suggestion- / wish-list:

AM> So what's your axe against TB! supporting an external editor?

No, it is against removing current internal editor.

It  is  just my personal opinion said by the way that adding some kind
of  a hook for external editor to TB! will not save time to RITlabs to
be more concentrated on mail-specific functions.

AM> That  they  would neglect to further develop the internal one that
AM> you prefer to use?

I  already  prefer  to  use it, no improvements to it are questions of
life  or  death  for  me.  I  only  don't  like the idea to forbid any
improvements to it but it is essential for me also.

-- 
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Oleg Zalyalov. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Using The Bat! version 1.38e
  under Windows NT 4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 6

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Oleg Zalyalov]

Hello, the Bat! list recipients,

Tuesday, January 18, 2000, Thomas Fernandez wrote to Oleg Zalyalov about
suggestion- / wish-list:

OZ>> That  is not a problem with external editor which allow scripting. The
OZ>> problems  begin  only  when  you  use  macros  which  use  information
OZ>> unavailable  to  external  editor,  just because it's external. One of
OZ>> examples  is %OATTACHMENTS macro. Not the only but the most useful for
OZ>> me. Tha fact that Steve don't need it is not an argument.

TF> It is, if you leave the internal editor intact. So, if you want to use
TF> %OAttachments, you will *have to* use the internal editor. Otherwise,
TF> you should be free to use an external editor, if you so wish. ;-)

Yes,  I  wish. One of the causes of that is that it has much in common
with  DN's internal editor (guess why), which is one of editors I have
used  to. Another cause is that this editor will be loaded much faster
that  any  other  descent  editor  I  know.  And  integration has both
drawbacks  and  advantages. Yes, it is a matter of User Choice. I only
want to let me have an appropriate option for my choice.

BTW   there  is a way to use external editor using filters, export and
import.  I  have  tried  it but didn't like it. In rare _for me_ cases
when  functionality  of  TB!  (and  it  takes  not only editor) is not
enought for me I export/import/edit by external editor manually.

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  under Windows NT 4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 6

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Oleg Zalyalov]

Hello, the Bat! list recipients,

Monday, January 17, 2000, Allie Martin wrote to Oleg Zalyalov about
suggestion- / wish-list:

AM> That's a valid concern. Using quick templates during message
AM> composition would definitely be a problem when using an external editor
AM> especially when using the %ISIGNATURE and %CLEAR macros ... two very
AM> useful macros.

That  is not a problem with external editor which allow scripting. The
problems  begin  only  when  you  use  macros  which  use  information
unavailable  to  external  editor,  just because it's external. One of
examples  is %OATTACHMENTS macro. Not the only but the most useful for
me. Tha fact that Steve don't need it is not an argument.

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[tracer]

Hello Steve Lamb,
On Mon, 17 Jan 2000 18:06:40 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Tuesday, January 18, 2000, 9:06:40 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Steve Lamb wrote:

Steve> On Tue, Jan 18, 2000 at 01:05:19AM +, Marck D. Pearlstone wrote:
>>   Might  I  humbly  suggest  you  use TB as an e-mail
>> client a while longer. The editor is one thing that suddenly leaps out as
>> being  very  well  suited  to  the  job  it  does for the /type of
>> information/  it  works on. 

Steve> *cough*  Just think, an external editor would solve all this bickering
Steve> with no endless conditionals subverting the email client from the task it was
Steve> designed for.  *cough*

Steve> What, did I say that out loud?
no idea but maybe this helps:
I asked Todd who is marketing Gator editor and several other
products

Quote:
Okay...  Although if you've set your MAPI mail program to regard text
attachments as going into the body of the message, then Gator will work
fine, it won't be an attachment but will be appended to the body.  If
you leave the body blank it will *be* the entire body.

EOQ

In short, if the Bat v2 is setup like this, you have a usable
quite nice external editor... It can generate or attach to the bodies...
It has good spell checking capabilities..
It was made to interact with cmpqwk and their own emailer  so not really
surprising it may work with other email programs if desired.



Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
using FireTalk: 321338

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Tom Plunket]

AVK>>> Press  instead;-)

MDP> (it's only one additional keystroke after all.

Umm, it's 50% more typing.  See, the problem doesn't manifest itself
'til you're actually trying to use the software in a real fashion, and
you don't want to fight with the interface.

AVK>>> Please, don't do this! Maybe as an option only;-) It's the thing
AVK>>> I like *most* in TB's editor, morethenthat, I use *only* the
AVK>>> editors that support this...

MDP> Agreed, completely.

Well, you two aren't typical Windows users.  As it goes, virtual space
has some people who like it and others who don't.

That said, if I could map the BRIEF keys to operations, I wouldn't
mind it 'cause that's what I'm used to when programming.  However, the
abortion known as the Borland keymap mixed with CUA really doesn't
help me use virtual space.

GCS>> Well, It *ought* to be an option, if for no other reason than
GCS>> there are so many other popular apps that function in exactly
GCS>> that way.

MDP>   Might  I  humbly  suggest  you  use TB as an e-mail
MDP> client a while longer.

Why, so these feelings get reinforced?  Seriously, the reason I don't
like virtual space have nothing to do with the fact that I'm not used
to it.  They have EVERYTHING to do with the fact that I use it and I
don't like it and I remember the days when I was programming with
emacs and I still feel that emacs 19 is the most powerful editor that
I've ever used.  See, I don't mind using the keyboard.  I HATE being
required to use the mouse.

MDP> The editor is one thing that suddenly leaps out as being very
MDP> well suited to the job it does for the /type of information/ it
MDP> works on.

No better suited than an editor without virtual space.  I mean
seriously, any text editor probably does a fine job at editing text
files.  However, to have the broadest appeal you have to appeal to the
broadest market.

MDP> IMHO "Many other popular apps" do not have to work on
MDP> semi-formatted plain text in anything like the same way.

In my memory, emacs does a fine job, is more configurable, and has
more features.

MDP> Just a suggestion. We all know that the simple of addition of a
MDP> new "option" switch means a whole plethora of underlying
MDP> conditional coding to subvert the editor from its' designed
MDP> purpose and we all loath the "B" work ... say it with me: "Don't
MDP> bloat The Bat!". :-)

Hmm, glad that's your opinion because any intelligent programmer
wouldn't have set the system up to require a plethora of underlying
conditional coding to subvert the editor.

IOW, a checkbox sets "bAllowVirtualSpace" to "TRUE."  Then, the up and
down keypresses, along with the mouse clicks to move the cursor, need
to check this.  That's THREE checks, that's THREE additional lines of
code, plus block demarkation (in Delphi's case it's begin/end as I
recall).  Actually, use the same logic that's there, but at the end of
these four operations, check this variable, and if it's false, pretend
the  key was also hit.  There's the tough logic, that's six
lines of additional code.  Total.  That's it, the poor-man's EOL
follower in place, and that is NOT what is commonly known as "bloat."

I, again, prefer the way emacs does it, but we all can't be so
powerful, can we?

To cross the beams, this is one reason why an external editor would be
so great; I could use one that does what I want it to do.

-tom!

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[G. Cowling, SRNA]

Monday, January 17, 2000, 4:36:07 PM, Alexander wrote:

AVK> Hi there!

AVK> On 17 Jan 00, at 12:36, Tom Plunket wrote
AVK> about "Re[3]: suggestion- / wish-list":


>> Since we're talking about the editor, is there a way to turn of
>> "virtual space" so the cursor won't go places where there are none of
>> spaces, characters,  created lines?  I like to be at the end of a
>> paragraph and hit  to go to the beginning of the next,

AVK> Press  instead;-) In fact, there exists even better a 
AVK> combination: Ctrl-, which is a well-known shortcut for "next 
AVK> paragraph", but TB doesn't recognize it currently;-(

>> but as you all may know, it doesn't work that way by default.

AVK> Please, don't do this! Maybe as an option only;-) It's the thing I like *most* in 
AVK> TB's editor, morethenthat, I use *only* the editors that support this... 


Well, It *ought* to be an option, if for no other reason than there
are so many other popular apps that function in exactly that way.

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Oleg Zalyalov]

Hello, the Bat! list recipients,

Monday, January 17, 2000, Steve Lamb wrote to Oleg Zalyalov about
suggestion- / wish-list:

>> At least I have need in preview when killing mail. The preview in TB! is
>> based on the editor. Or should there be external message viewer also?

SL> It isn't based on the editor.  It is the other way around.  The preview is
SL> just a viewing object, no editing.  It is like saying that ACDSee is based on
SL> Photoshop.

Really? They at least share the code for displaying message and cursor
movement  and  search.  Only  editing  itself  disabled  while viewing
message.


>> Inserts a list of files attached to original message. I don't need it as a
>> part of my template which will be passed to an editor from TB! when editor
>> called, because I'll better forget to insert it than will have
>> 'Attachments:' in every message. How to implement it with external
>> editor.

SL> Uhm, I don't get it.  It will work since that is parsed before the message
SL> is passed to the external editor.

I  don't want to have it in message template, because I will forget to
delete  it  always  -- and I don't want to delete some text from every
message to be able to have it in about 2 or 3 messages a week.

So  it  is  Quick  Template  which  doing the task, the template which
available not before passing text to editor, but while editing. How to
do it with external editor?

>> Release Shift
>> Press Home (if we are speaking about selecting set of lines)
>> Hold Shift
>> Move the cursor to the desired first line.

>> What's  the  problem?  Losing  my current marked text? So what? Why to
>> bother?

SL> Losing the current marked text.  Why bother?  Ever try to remark 9 pages
SL> of text because of a missed line?  You're also assuming that "home" takes to
SL> where I want, which it does not.  In this one case...

SL> Release shift, PGUP 9 times, up arrow, SHIFT, PgDn 9 times, CNTL-C, move to
SL> place I want it, Shift-INS.

Release shift, pres left, press right, shift, PgUp 9 times, up, CNTL-C,
move.

SL> In joe:

SL> ^U 9 times, up arrow, ^K^B, move to where I want it, ^K^C.

SL> In vim:

SL> o, up arrow, y, move to where I want it, P.

SL> See the large difference there.  In two words: Less Work.
>From  the  other  hand  in  CUA  I  have to know by heart much less of
shortcuts -- it saves time for using rare functions (ok, basic marking
is  not  one,  but  in  CUA  i  use same technique for line and stream
blocks).

Next,  specific  of mail editing for me means that I don't ever create
messages  which  require  9 PgUps to select a portion of it. On not so
big messages the difference is not so dramatic.

>> I think you will agree that there is no sence in calling external editor for
>> filling in any inputline in, say, account properties (and how about address
>> list?).

SL> No, but those don't require a lot of editing, do they?
Most of messages don't either.

>> You are talking about User Choice. OK, my choice -- current TB!'s internal
>> editor.

SL> And how does this change that?
I  only  ask  you  to  let me have it. And not to remove it and not to
freeze it.

>> What we do with me now? I don't mean ideal philosophy, I mean my particular
>> case.
SL> You really don't want me to answer that.
Does that mean that you have to agree with me?

>> I prefer to have 5 specialized editors rather than one capable of doing 5
>> tasks. Because combined mixer and coffee grinder is bad mixer and bad coffee
>> grinder.

SL> *ROFL*

SL> Mail Client - Coffee Mixer
SL> Internal Editor - Coffee Grinder.

SL> Thank *YOU* for proving my point.
On the other hand:

 Programmer's Editor -- Mixer
 Mail Editor -- Grinder

 Universal editor-- Combine

I  prefer  separate  mixer  and  grinder  while  they are bloated with
implementation  of the same electrical engine.

SL> I  do. Because I have sat on phones patiently and politely telling
SL> people  the  right thing professional for years and it got me crap
SL> in  return.  I  am  flat  out  tired of being polite to people who
SL> aren't  polite in return.

There  is not a choice of being right and polite or rude and wrong. It
is  a  choice of being or not being polite to not polite people. It is
completely different problem.

-- 
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Oleg Zalyalov. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Using The Bat! version 1.38e
  under Windows NT 4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 6

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[tracer]

Hello Nick Andriash,
On Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:20:02 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Sunday, January 16, 2000, 2:20:02 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Nick Andriash wrote:

Nick> On Saturday, January 15, 2000, 7:57:02 AM, Allie Martin wrote:

>> Just out of curiosity, I had a look around and cannot seem to find an
>> editor that will work as well as TB!'s with respect to formatting and
>> reflowing *quoted* text. Boxer 99 comes very close and of course is
>> superior at formatting unquoted material but it's $60 a license. Better to

Nick> I'm still unclear though on the issue of using an external editor. Is TB
Nick> capable of calling up one... providing a hook, but if not, then exactly
Nick> how _do_ you use an external editor with TB?

Nick> I agree with Allie though... I think for the purposes of editing E-Mail,
Nick> you'd be hard pressed to find a better editor than the one we have, and
Nick> the price is right. :o)
You may laugh but I never started to look around what COULD be run
unmtil we had the request for the external editor.
Ok it should be an option but personally I donot mind
Nick> Nick




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tracer

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Oleg Zalyalov]

Hello, the Bat! list recipients,

Thursday, January 13, 2000, Steve Lamb wrote to Oleg Zalyalov about
suggestion- / wish-list:

SL> Thursday, January 13, 2000, 1:26:27 AM, Oleg wrote:
>> Because  it's  an  argument  for  a single tool: TheBat! for all tasks
>> regarding mail management.
SL>  ^^

SL> Spell checking and editing don't fall under management.
I  agree about spell checking and I do use external CSAPI spellchecker
within  TB!'s  internal  editor  because Spellchecking for sure has no
mail-specific  functions.  Editing  has.  OTOH,  please  specify  real
example  of  lack  of  functionality  of  TB!'s  editor  for composing
messages.  Because  you  begun  from  the point that you don't want to
learn  new  interface  and  now you are saying that interface is not a
problem, and the problem is in the lack of functionality.

>> Mistype.  I  meant  %OATTACHMENTS.  How  to  implement  QT  containing
>> %OATTACHMENTS with external editor?

SL> Again, what is that?
You are kidding, or what? I don't understand your question.


SL> Funny, I find a need all the time for deleting lines as opposed to blocks.
SL> I find the CUA mode clumsy at times because I can't just delete an arbitrary
SL> set of lines.  Furthermore, the way it marks blocks leaves a lot to be
SL> desired.
That's your opinion. In my opinion CUA is just fine at that.


SL> 70.  1.  70.  1.  What was this again about you being forced to learn
SL> "another" editor when you can chose that editor and no matter what happens
SL> with the other portions of your system that one thing remains constant?  No,
SL> sir, you are being forced to learn different editors and don't even know it.

>> If not than TB! authors will still have to improve editor as well, but they
>> will have to add another feature which will not mean more concentration on
>> mailer functions.

SL> Exactly.  TB! is an email client, not an editor.  They should be
SL> concentrating on the email client and its interface, not on an editor.

It's not possible if they will not remove editor at all. If it will be
present  while  replaceble  by external editor they will still have to
pay some attention to it.

If  they will remove it I will have to learn one more editor because I
have learned TB!'s editor already and can't dislearn it and the editor
I'm using outside TB! now cannot be used as external editor for TB! --
we  discussed  that  already.  Than  I will have to get another editor
first,  learn  it and only after that I will be able to work with mail
about  1/2  of my current efficiency because it will take time to tune
up that perfect editor and to get used to it.

Next question is rather philosophical: if I don't learn new editor how
do  I  my  sacred  User  Choise?  It becames only random choice of the
editor I have get first.

-- 
Best regards,
Oleg Zalyalov. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Using The Bat! version 1.38e
  under Windows NT 4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 6

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Wolfgang Kynast]

Hi Nick,

...
> However, what about us that are not comfortable with
> some of the Unix style editors you mention. I'm not sure of the terminology,
> but what I'm getting at is... what "good" editor do you know of that will
> have a decent GUI to make it easy for us less technical people to use?

I'm a long time user of KEDIT: http://www.kedit.com/

Regards,
Wolfgang

Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA discussion lists

Using The Bat! 1.38e under Windows 95 4.0 Build   B
in Darmstadt, Germany,
on a 166Mhz Cyrix, 128MB SDRAM, half SCSI system ;-)

http://people.frankfurt.netsurf.de/wky/

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[tracer]

Hello Nick Andriash,
On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 09:01:36 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Friday, January 14, 2000, 12:01:36 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Nick Andriash wrote:

Nick> On Thursday, January 13, 2000, 8:43:20 AM, Steve Lamb wrote:

>> Exactly.  TB! is an email client, not an editor.  They should be
>> concentrating on the email client and its interface, not on an editor.

Nick> Good post Steve... I'm finally beginning to see your point on using an
Nick> external editor. :o)  However, what about us that are not comfortable with
Nick> some of the Unix style editors you mention. I'm not sure of the terminology,
Nick> but what I'm getting at is... what "good" editor do you know of that will
Nick> have a decent GUI to make it easy for us less technical people to use?

http://www.dcyber.com
have a look.
It may come close to whats wanted.


Nick> Nick


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tracer

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[tracer]

Hello Steve Lamb,
On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 08:43:20 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 11:43:20 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Steve Lamb wrote:

>> I think that scripting is not a panacea because as any interpreter it is not
>> much of efficiency by the definition. I prefer pre-compiled code.

Steve> I prefer being able to develop at the application level rather than the
Steve> system level.  Each has their benefits, let's not get into that here.
sounds wise (g)

SL>>> No, word processing isn't just ASCII text.
>> How about HTML messages?

Steve> HTML isn't word processing.  It is similar and as a result I advocate the
Steve> use of appropriate tools.  I use both vim and macromedia's dreamweaver to do
Steve> the work.  Of course, the latter, like the former, doesn't mangle my code like
Steve> every other editor out there which is why I advocate it.
dreamweaver/homeside is what I use if I get 'forced' into writing a
webside.
I try to ignore graphics(g)

Steve> By calling a single applications you have exactly one copy.  By taking
Steve> that one model and "fixing" the problems on it in your own way you have as
Steve> many copies as there are programs.

>> Didn't noted that. I thought you advocate vim. Than all you need is user
>> definable keys in TB!'s editor?

Steve> No, I advocate User Choice.  No, user definable keys will not work in
Steve> TB!'s editor.  Hey, I want to pipe this text through a filter.  Can't do it.
Steve> Damn, hard to bind a key for something I can't do in the first place.  Forcing
Steve> the user to use the editor supplied is not user choice.  Giving the user a
Steve> hook to use whatever editor he wants to use *IS* user choice.  User definable
Steve> keys is configurability, not choice, since I am still using the same force-fed
Steve> editor.


>> Yes, because there is no need in it any more. Because delete line is a
>> relict  of  FORTRAN,  ASM  and  EDLIN  epoch when there were no blocks
>> and shift-arrow marking.
That wasnt the fault of the compilers but of the compiler writers.
They fixed up C/Pascal but Ms ignored Fortran.
One of the first things we did was allow this under Fortran and I had
whole sublibs just with bit/byte fiddles on screen and in files.
ABSOLUTELY no problem  doing things like that..
I even had an assembler written interface to generate
'make files'... Ie compilers/compiles with links/links alone etc etc.



>> Than it will mean that I will be forced to learn another editor.

Steve> No, you will be forced to learn one *LESS* editor.  You were forced to
Steve> learn one more editor because TB! included an editor and forced you to use it.
Steve> When you're outside TB! are you using TB!'s editor?  No.
I cannot even remember learning it...



Steve> Let's cut to the chase, shall we?  On Winfiles I counted a good ~70 email
Steve> clients of various capacities and ~50 programs dealing with news.  Let's
Steve> figure 20 of those email programs aren't really clients and a good 30 of the
Steve> news programs are nothing more than binary extractors (I think that is about
Steve> right).  That leaves a 50 email clients, 20 news clients all implementing
Steve> their own editor in their own way.  That means to go through them all I have
Steve> to learn and evaluate 70 different editors.  Not only is that a lot of
Steve> duplication in terms of binaries, it is also in code and programming time.
100% correct !



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tracer

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[tracer]

Hello Alexander V. Kiselev,
On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:37:07 +0300 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 9:37:07 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:


>> so I can see only  one reason for RITLabs programmers to support DDE in The
>> Bat! -- in  Delphi  DDE  was  implemented  on  very  high (and easy for use
>> by programmer) level... 

Alexander> That's a perfect point, I've been making it for months already;-)
I agree...
Alexander> á ×ÏÚ... É ÎÙÎÅ ÔÁÍ (pardon for speaking Russian;-))


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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Alex Sanyukovitch]

Hello Alexander,

Thursday, January 13, 2000, 4:37:07 PM, you wrote:

AVK> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
AVK> Lines: 51
AVK> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Just wonder why you ALWAYS have this filed doubled?

AVK> Finally, who told you DDE is obsolete? M$? Half of OS/2 is based on DDE,
AVK> and it *works* much better, then any of the M$ creatures;-)
I  just  had  a  lot  of  *sex*  with DDE once ;-)) (In MSVC++, not in
Delphi). Finally I gave up and have implemented all with OLE...

>> There are a lot of BETTER  methods  -- OLE, 

AVK> No, don't say OLE is better a method;-) Do you *really* think so???

I *know* that ;-))


AVK> That's a perfect point, I've been making it for months already;-)
Mmm... what do you mean? You've asked RIT about DDE in TB?

AVK> á ×ÏÚ... É ÎÙÎÅ ÔÁÍ (pardon for speaking Russian;-))
No problem here ;-))


Well,  some months ago I tried to implement editing in external editor
for  The  Bat!.  I  just made a hook on opening of "Edit Mail Message"
window.  When editor closes, all data are moved to TB window.
But  when  RIT  claimed  that  in  TB  2.0  it will be possible to use
external  editor, it became not interesting for me to continue work in
this field...


-- 
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Alex Sanyukovitch
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
17:01 13.01.2000

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[tracer]

Hello Januk Aggarwal,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:03:14 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 11:03:14 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Januk Aggarwal wrote:

Januk> Hello tracer,

Januk> Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 7:19:51 PM, you wrote:

Steve>>> ACDeeCee.
>> Agreed

Januk>  Have either of you tried IrfanView?  It is fast and simple, and the
Januk>  latest edition even does some limited editing.  I personally like
Januk>  this one the best, plus it is free. :)
Where I live the fact of a program being free  or not is not a reason
to use or not use a program luckily...
I probably have seen most of the utilities which float around but tend
to have installed what works with the least amount of problems.
Ie not only for using the program as such but also of not seeing any
indication of problems for windows
I find ACDSEE over the long run the easiest to use and it never caused
me one problem with other software.
Ok, I rarely view graphics so I didnt buy the thing but I prefer it.
However, note its a preference so yours may fit bet what you use it
for..
IrfanView is quite nice but, how many viewers, editors etc does one
need to have installed???


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tracer

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Alex Sanyukovitch]

Hello Alexander,

Thursday, January 13, 2000, 3:35:25 AM, you wrote:


AVK> DDE is the only *effective* protocol IMO existing under windoze that allows 
AVK> dirrect applications transactions. It really *works*...

DDE  is  an  obsolete protocol brought from Win3.1. There are a lot of
BETTER  methods  -- OLE, named pipes, memory files, etc.; so I can see
only  one reason for RITLabs programmers to support DDE in The Bat! --
in  Delphi  DDE  was  implemented  on  very  high (and easy for use by
programmer) level...


-- 
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Alex Sanyukovitch
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
11:21 13.01.2000

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Oleg Zalyalov]

Hello, the Bat! list recipients,

Wednesday, January 12, 2000, Steve Lamb wrote to Oleg Zalyalov about
suggestion- / wish-list:

>> It  can do any task at hand depending on user skills even with no need
>> to change configuration. Just visit Kizhi for an example.
SL> Then why hold it up as an argument against a single tool?  :P
Because  it's  an  argument  for  a single tool: TheBat! for all tasks
regarding mail management.

SL> This  is  not  true.  The "common" shortcuts often are implemented
SL> differently  in  each  program.  How  they  behave  is  different.
SL> Furthermore, when you get used to one editor and switch to another
SL> at  some  point  you find yourself wishing for some feature in the
SL> first  editor  even  though at the onset you didn't expect to need
SL> that  feature.  Case  in point, how many "wouldn't it be nice if x
SL> editor  did  this  like  y  editor" suggestions do you see for the
SL> different   editors   floating  around?  Another...
It  has  nothing  to  do  with  the problem we are discussing. For any
developer  of  any  soft there always will be wishes. Very few of them
will  be  original.  Most  of them will be in the form "wouldn't it be
nice if x software did this like y software".

And  that  is  not  implementation we are discussing. The thread began
with  that  you  said  that  you  don't want to have another interface
switching to another editor.

Again:
>> I  just  meant  that  at every task I do implement I will need only
>> 1/Nth  part  of  the  SuperEditor  (vim?). I don't think that it is
>> better  to spawn another process which first will decide which task
>> it  spawned  for to configure itself in proper way and to load only
>> what  I  need now then just to have a standartized interface within
>> built-in editor.

SL> I have used paragraph reformat in my perl coding. ;)
Maybe  it is not editor that you need? Maybe you need some lego to let
you  make your editor? I think that scripting is not a panacea because
as  any  interpreter it is not much of efficiency by the definition. I
prefer pre-compiled code.

SL> No,  word  processing  isn't just ASCII text.
How about HTML messages?

SL>>> Funny,  vim  uses  no  CNTL-ALT-SHIFT combonations. I also don't
SL>>> consider  it  bloated  compared to reimplementing the same basic
SL>>> editor 20 times.
>> Don't vim use standard windows edittext object? I'm sure TB! does.
SL> No, it doesn't.  TB! does.
Than  it  is  vim  bloating  system  by  reimplementing the same basic
editor, while TB! doesn't.

SL> OTOH  that  is because it is trying to conform to the standard CUA
SL> model  as  well  as  add  its extensions to it. Why do you think I
SL> advocate a common editor based on *USER CHOICE*.
Didn't  noted  that.  I thought you advocate vim. Than all you need is
user definable keys in TB!'s editor?

>> I mean QuickTemplates  e.g. containing %OATTACHEMENTS macro. How?
SL> What is that?
Mistype.  I  meant  %OATTACHMENTS.  How  to  implement  QT  containing
%OATTACHMENTS with external editor?

>> I don't know 20 different keystrokes just to del line. I use Shift-Dn,
>> Del. Works on all comprehensive editors I know (I don't use UNIX).

SL> That is the CUA standard.
Exactly.

SL> It also is not deleting a line, it is marking
SL> text and deleting text.  There is no "delete line" in CUA.
Yes, because there is no need in it any more. Because delete line is a
relict  of  FORTRAN,  ASM  and  EDLIN  epoch when there were no blocks
and shift-arrow marking.

SL> delete line
SL> dd - vim
SL> d, down arrow - vim
SL> c$ - vim
SL> c, down arrow - vim
SL> ^Y - wordstar (& joe)

SL> mark & delete
SL> v, down, d - vim
SL> ^Kb, down, ^Kk,^Ky - joe
Oops  wordstar  again.  Also borland (inprise I meant), TB! and so on.
Just another editor interface standard.

You  are  saying that to TB! developers it is better to concentrate on
mailer  and  leave  editing  to  external  editor. Will that mean that
internal  editor  will  be  removed?  Than it will mean that I will be
forced  to  learn  another  editor. If not than TB! authors will still
have  to  improve  editor  as  well, but they will have to add another
feature which will not mean more concentration on mailer functions.

-- 
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Oleg Zalyalov. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Using The Bat! version 1.38e
  under Windows NT 4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 6

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[tracer]

Hello Alexander V. Kiselev,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 21:51:16 +0300 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 1:51:16 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:

Alexander> Hi there!

Alexander> On 12 Jan 00, at 9:03, Steve Lamb wrote
Alexander> about "Re: suggestion- / wish-list":

>> > Steve, any idea what editors you have seen under windows which might
>> > do the job as external editors for the Bat??
>> 
>> Well, an editor which just edits plain text would work.  As I've said, my
>> preference is for vim which is really a unix[1] editor.  My other preference is
>> joe, another unix editor.  I've not looked at GUI based editors ever since my
>> OS/2 days when I used to use Mr. Ed for my external editor for PMMail/2.

Alexander> Hey, Steve, seems we were working just in the same manner with you in *our* 
Alexander> OS/2 days;-) Under Windoze, I was always missing (at least), four things:
Alexander> 1) WatchCat (system spying and maintenance);
have you ever seen INFSPY??
or doesnt that look at the things you want to see??
Alexander> 2) Mr.Ed (editor)
Alexander> 3) PMView (image viewer and more)
ACDSEE??
Or has that wanted things missing...

Alexander> 4) WarpCenter (GUI enhancement: multiple desktops and such)

Alexander> For the 1) above I still have nothing under Windoze; for the second WinEdt 
Alexander> seems to be even a *better* replacement (although Mr.Ed was faster and 
Alexander> smaller, but that's a usual thing when you compare the Windows application 
to 
Alexander> its OS/2 counterpart;-(); for the third, nothing would qualify, but AFAIK 
Alexander> PMView will be soon available for Windoze, which is a really good thing 
(tm): 
Alexander> www.pmview.com for all interested; for the fourth there is PerfectScreens 
Alexander> (www.softwareutilities.com) which is not the same, but can stand for a 
Alexander> functional replacement given the overall quality of Windows GUI compared to 
Alexander> OS/2 PM;-)

>> Hell, calling a different editor with any name shouldn't be that hard.
>> The only problem, as people have rightfully pointed out, is that if the editor
>> doesn't exit after the task at hand is completed there is a problem
>> signaling to the email client to read in the temp file and continue with its
>> task.

Alexander> It's not a problem if one could use DDE. A simple script (not a program 
even) 
Alexander> would help.


Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[tracer]

Hello Steve Lamb,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 15:05:40 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 6:05:40 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Steve Lamb wrote:

Steve> Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 10:51:16 AM, Alexander wrote:
>> 1) WatchCat (system spying and maintenance);

Steve> top, kill, and... oh wait, Windows, right, right.  Reset key.  I've got my
Steve> Linux box doing all my important work.  Windows is just games.  I've given up
Steve> on trying to make it stable and just wack the reset key.

GAMES???
What games do you play on your PC...
I thought you only had PC's for WORK or serious things...(g)

(snip)

Steve> ACDeeCee.
Agreed

>> 4) WarpCenter (GUI enhancement: multiple desktops and such)

Steve> Powerbar.
I never tried it, guess I should have a look at it...

>> It's not a problem if one could use DDE. A simple script (not a program even)
>> would help.

Steve> Can one do DDE to a "normal" editor?


Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[tracer]

Hello Alexander V. Kiselev,
On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 02:48:40 +0300 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 13, 2000, 6:48:40 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:

Alexander> Might be, but the functionality is lacking. Although I have Adobe PhotoShop 
Alexander> (and dislike it;-)), every now and then I need to do "slight" image 
editing, for 
Alexander> which I don't need a monster like PhotoShop. PMView handles this. Plus is 
Alexander> can be used for scanning. Plus filtering images. Plus configurable 
shortcuts 
Alexander> (!!!).
Paintshop 6 will do that as well...

Alexander> And on top of *all* that it's just plain faster and displays images 
*better* (better 
Alexander> resampling support, to be more precise) then ACDC. 

Alexander> And all this is NOT a monster, it's a reasonable download (the size of 
ACDC, 
Alexander> practically).


Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Oleg Zalyalov]

Hello, the Bat! list recipients,

Tuesday, January 11, 2000, Steve Lamb wrote to Oleg Zalyalov about
suggestion- / wish-list:

>> Why  do carpenters need other tools than bench axe? Underlying concept
>> to most of those is the same: wood.

SL> A bench axe cannot change configuration to suit the task at hand.  A
SL> program can be configured for the task at hand.  Apples and oranges, try
SL> again.

It  can do any task at hand depending on user skills even with no need
to change configuration. Just visit Kizhi for an example.

>> When programming I use language-specific templates I don't need to know of
>> when I am editing news or mail or writing poerty.

SL> Those templates can be added in.

>> I also need project management and so on.

SL> The   project  management  environment  can  call  the  editor  in
SL> question.

>> When I write a book I will need heavy word processing including
>> cross-references and so on.

SL> Which  is  possible.  I've  seen  books  written in just VI. OTOH,
SL> you'll note

I didn't say it's all impossible. I just meant that at every task I do
implement  I  will  need  only 1/Nth part of the SuperEditor (vim?). I
don't  think  that  it  is better to spawn another process which first
will  decide  which  task it spawned for to configure itself in proper
way  and to load only what I need now then just to have a standartized
interface within built-in editor. Which is almost already done -- most
of editor specific shortcuts are calling editor specific functions for
most editors, while most of common functions has common shortcuts.

SL> I didn't put word processing into my list because I do know that is a
SL> different task than just editing ASCII text.
Why  are you so inconsistant? It's underlying data also ASCII text and
it has the very same basic functions. Where is your difference between
'just' and 'not just'?

>> I don't need bloated do-everything editor where I will have to use
>> Ctrl-Alt-Shift combinations alot because simple keys are occupied by
>> functions which I will never need for my current task.

SL> Funny, vim uses no CNTL-ALT-SHIFT combonations.  I also don't consider it
SL> bloated compared to reimplementing the same basic editor 20 times.
Don't vim use standard windows edittext object? I'm sure TB! does.

SL>>> Quick templates are nothing more than imported text with replacement of
SL>>> macros.  That can be achieved several different ways.
>> How?
SL> What do you mean "how?"  Give me an example.  One of mine is I have a
SL> template which puts in the date/time.  I can write a perl script to replace a
SL> macro to do that.  Big whoop.
I mean QuickTemplates  e.g. containing %OATTACHEMENTS macro. How?

>> Never, because it is not underlying data defines the way people handle it
>> but the purpose of editing. Just discussed this regarding mail and news
>> management here.

SL> Right, that is why the editor changes modes to suit the needs of the task
SL> at hand.  Why should I have to learn 20 different keystrokes just do delete a
SL> line?  Is that not common to all of those tasks?

I don't know 20 different keystrokes just to del line. I use Shift-Dn,
Del. Works on all comprehensive editors I know (I don't use UNIX).

-- 
Best regards,
Oleg Zalyalov. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Using The Bat! version 1.38e
  under Windows NT 4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 6

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[tracer]

Hello Thomas Fernandez,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:42:33 +0800 GMT your local time,
which was Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 12:42:33 PM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Thomas Fernandez wrote:

Thomas> Hi tracer,

t>> (snipped)
Thomas>   ^^^
Thomas> Wow!

Thomas> Tracer you surprise me! And I always thought the crtl-Y key or
Thomas> mark&delete on your computer is broken! ;-)))
It isnt but considering the may threads/sub-threads I HAVE to chop.
I get too much mail.

Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[tracer]

Hello John Sullivan,
On Wed, 12 Jan 2000 03:28:19 + GMT your local time,
which was Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 10:28:19 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
John Sullivan wrote:



John> Ah, I'll just get them added to Notepad. Won't be a minute!
Gator and several others have a notepad.exe which if notepad is
called kicks the replacing editor into action.


Steve, any idea what editors you have seen under windows which might
do the job as external editors for the Bat??
Presumably calling a different editor with a fake notepad.exe shouldnt
be that complicated to arange

Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[tracer]

Hello Steve Lamb,
On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 13:51:27 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Wednesday, January 12, 2000, 4:51:27 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Steve Lamb wrote:

Steve> Tuesday, January 11, 2000, 1:05:47 PM, Owen wrote:
>> Why not complain
(snipped)
Steve> Yeah.  I've been working on a variety of unix and unix-like systems for
Steve> the past 10 years.  Considering I can get up to an acceptable level of
Steve> productivity in a new editor in approximately an hour provided they have a
Steve> decent help system I don't see why any computer professional would whine about
Steve> an editor being "non-standard"[*].
Well, I agree but under Dos/windows I draw the line at edlin. When I
saw that monstrosity with the first sample PC's I had them convert a
proper editor very fast
An Ascii editor and I still use it..


Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.39 Beta/1 
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Oleg Zalyalov]

Hello, the Bat! list recipients,

Tuesday, January 11, 2000, Steve Lamb wrote to Oleg Zalyalov about
suggestion- / wish-list:

SL> Tuesday, January 11, 2000, 12:44:38 AM, Oleg wrote:
>> There is editing and editing. When people will realize that editing message,
>> editing program, editing HTML, editing presentation, editing newspaper are
>> different tasks, they will not want one editor for everything.

SL> I do realize they are different tasks.  I also realize that the underlying
SL> concept to most of those is this:  ASCII text.

Why  do carpenters need other tools than bench axe? Underlying concept
to most of those is the same: wood.

SL> When I am editing news, mail, programming, writing poetry, changing my
SL> configuration, whatever I am simply editing ASCII text.  My editor changes
SL> itself to become appropriate for the task at hand.

SL> When programming vim highlights the keywords, variables, operators and
SL> such differently.  The same block of text in an email message wouldn't be
SL> highlighted...  Unless it was a quote or in someone's sig in which case it
SL> would be highlighted as a quote or a sig.
When  programming  I  use  language-specific templates I don't need to
know  of when I am editing news or mail or writing poerty. I also need
project  management  and  so on. When I write a book I will need heavy
word  processing  including  cross-references  and so on. I don't need
bloated  do-everything  editor where I will have to use Ctrl-Alt-Shift
combinations  alot because simple keys are occupied by functions which
I will never need for my current task.

SL> Quick templates are nothing more than imported text with replacement of
SL> macros.  That can be achieved several different ways.
How?

SL> When will people realize it is better to use one editor when the
SL> underlying data is the same (ASCII text) so you only need to learn one set of
SL> commands and capabilities and then demand that the *EDITOR* change look and
SL> feel to fit the task at hand than to have multiple editors with multiple
SL> interfaces, multiple capabilities, multiple command sets and constantly asking
SL> a dozen or so different authors to reimplement feature X from editor Y in
SL> editor Z because they find it useful?
Never, because it is not underlying data defines the way people handle
it  but the purpose of editing. Just discussed this regarding mail and
news management here.

BTW, what is scoring?

And you didn't answer the main my question: how will TB! know that I'm
done  with editing new message with my favorite editor if I have three
more files open with it and don't want to close it?

-- 
Best regards,
Oleg Zalyalov. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Using The Bat! version 1.38e
  under Windows NT 4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 6

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Oleg Zalyalov]

Hello, the Bat! list recipients,

Tuesday, January 11, 2000, Allie Martin wrote to Steve Lamb about
suggestion- / wish-list:

>> I like vim.

>> Think about it for a minute.

>> Again, PMMail does it just fine on both Windows and OS/2.

>> Think another minute.  :)

AM> I was experimenting with PMMail and Notetab Pro. I didn't like what was
AM> happening. I had to shut down Notetab Pro manually each time and then
AM> allow it to catch the next message for reading or composing. Although
AM> Notetab Pro supports multiple document editing per instance I couldn't get
AM> PMMail to use this feature. I ditched the idea.

I like UltraEdit. It is multiwindow and is almost always resides in my
tray.  If  I will have to close external editor to let TB! know that I
have  finished  message  editing  -- I don't like the idea of using my
favorite editor within TB!

Next,  I will be not able of using quick templates in external editor.

There  is  editing  and editing. When people will realize that editing
message,  editing program, editing HTML, editing presentation, editing
newspaper  are  different  tasks,  they  will  not want one editor for
everything.

-- 
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Oleg Zalyalov. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  Using The Bat! version 1.38e
  under Windows NT 4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 6

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Owen Carter]

Hello John,

Monday, January 10, 2000, 11:05:18 PM, you wrote:

JS> On Monday 10 January 2000 Steve Lamb wrote:
>> This is exactly my point.  3 people, 4 different opinions of editors.  So
>> why do people insist on making editors inside applications part of the
>> application and forcing people to use them when they can just pass the text
>> off to the preferred editor and not have to worry about programming, in
>> essence, two different applications?

JS> Because, unlike UNIX, Windows has no established convention for
JS> plonking a file to temp, calling a user-defined editor to edit it,
JS> detecting (correctly, 100% of the time!) when the editor has exited,
JS> and reloading the edited file.

JS> John

You've got a point there.

An inconsistancy I hate is that AFAIK the bat has two editors, the
template editor is horrible. No window resize and control key only
cut-n-paste, having every %EV% on the context menu is a poor tradeoff.

I just wish The Bat!'s mail editor matched the windows paradigum (sp?)
by default, I suspect that it is the single biggest barrier that this
program has to gaining greater acceptance. Of 15 or so engineers at my
company who got introduced to this program there are only 4 left.
Several of them said stuff like 'lifes too short to learn another
bunch of Control key combo's', or 'the editor's the last straw'. And
we're all Unix support engineers, used to coping with stuff like vi,
emacs, etc.. It's not that we don't appreciate what is being
attempted, we just have to make hard choices about where to invest our
'geek knowledge'. And there you go, potential customers lost, although
they all agree that technically it's good.

Best regards,  Owen


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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Oleg Zalyalov]

Hello, the Bat! list recipients,

Thursday, January 06, 2000, Steve Lamb wrote to Oleg Zalyalov about
suggestion- / wish-list:

SL> Thursday, January 06, 2000, 12:17:45 AM, Oleg wrote:
>> Why? Just wonder, I can't imagine why there could be needed 3 trailing
>> spaces at the end of line.

SL> As you might have noticed I indent the first line of each paragraph 4
SL> lines.  So imagine the following scenario.  I split a quote, drop down the
SL> separator line, indent, then decide I want to do something else.  Move, do it,
SL> come back, have to reindent because the spaces were "lost."  :)

In  such rare for me cases I put some character at the cursor position
prior  to  moving  from indented location. After I have done something
else I just have to delete one symbol instead of re-indenting.

And for me this situation is exotic enough and I do not want to change
editor behavior cardinally because of it.

-- 
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  Using The Bat! version 1.38e
  under Windows NT 4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 6

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Re[2]: suggestion- / wish-list

[Windisch Gergely]

Hello TBUDL,

On Thursday, January 06, 2000, , Carsten Dreesbach wrote:

FL>> - i didn't find a way to download only "small" mails, yet to keep the
FL>> bigger ones on the server. using "the bat!", i can let the big mails
FL>> delete on the server, which isn't what i want to do. i used pmmail
FL>> before "the bat!" - if there was a 2meg-mail waiting for me on the
FL>> server, the mailer downloaded only the header and i could choose
FL>> whether to download it or to do something else. with "the bat!", i can
FL>> only let big mails delete automatically. right? :-|
> You  can  use  the  Message  Dispatcher  -  that  should be able to do
> everything you want.
I Have the same problem with that. The message dispatcher is not what
I want because if I log on the net to receive my mails I dont want to
spend too much time (I dont have that time available). Today I
received 189 messages at 6 pm. if I had received a letter containing
500k attachment then it takes about 5 minutes to get it. (plusz 5
minutes for the other letters) For mail d. it takes 2 minutes to
receive the headers and it takes me 2 minutes to consider which
messages to download. That is too much  :( And then I would receive
those big messages at night. (cheaper)

FL>> - "the bat!" is getting so awfully slow when having "big"
FL>> folders, i.a. folders with >5000 mails. my "sent"- and "trash"-folders
FL>> have to be purged+compressed almost daily to avoid minutes of waiting at
FL>> the next start-up. :-|
> Wow, and I thought _I_ had lotsa e-mails coming in every day! ;]
I have this problem also. (I have about 16000 mails)

These are the things I don't like about TB!.



Bye!

Windisch Gergely
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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