Re[4]: Why do I use The Bat?

[tracer]

Hello Wolfgang Kynast,
On Thu, 27 Jan 2000 21:34:05 +0100 GMT your local time,
which was Friday, January 28, 2000, 3:34:05 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Wolfgang Kynast wrote:


> Hi,

> ..
GCS>> Support for all of the PGP options.  Eudora used to support these
GCS>> (Eudora Lite still does, AFAIK, although Eudora Pro has been "broken"
GCS>> for several versions now).

> And Eudora Pro with PGP support was not sold outside the US
> when I was looking for a new mailer in 98.
> So they where out of business :-)

Not being sold doesnt mean one cannot get it.
I used it and it didnt work.

AND it leaked memory when you had many mails.
I am very happy to have switched to the bat.

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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 27 Jan 00, at 12:42, Steve Lamb wrote
about "Re: Why do I use The Bat?":

> > Steve, you are clearly worth the 0 mark in Math;-) Pi has never changed, it's
> > the people who measured it;-)
> 
> Nope, it is how it has been measured through the years.  

That's what I ment. 

> Of course there is always the theory that there is a memory leak in the
> universe and that is why pi has increased from 3 in biblical times to the
> current value.  ;) 

Won't work: those Indian guys had counted it pretty precisely at about the 1st 
century BC (at least). 3.14 they got;-) As for the biblical times (which weren't 
that far anyway: that's AFAIK mainly the times between 10th and 6th centuries 
BC), seems that the ancient jews just didn't know how to count it;-)

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Re[3]: Why do I use The Bat?

[Wolfgang Kynast]

Hi,

...
GCS> Support for all of the PGP options.  Eudora used to support these
GCS> (Eudora Lite still does, AFAIK, although Eudora Pro has been "broken"
GCS> for several versions now).

And Eudora Pro with PGP support was not sold outside the US
when I was looking for a new mailer in 98.
So they where out of business :-)

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Wolfgang

Co-moderator TBUDL / TBBETA discussion lists

Using The Bat! 1.39 under Windows 98 4.10 Build  A 
in Darmstadt, Germany, on a 500Mhz P3, 128MB SDRAM, SCSI disks

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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Steve Lamb]

Thursday, January 27, 2000, 12:23:21 PM, Alexander wrote:
> Steve, you are clearly worth the 0 mark in Math;-) Pi has never changed, it's
> the people who measured it;-)

Nope, it is how it has been measured through the years.  Of course there
is always the theory that there is a memory leak in the universe and that is
why pi has increased from 3 in biblical times to the current value.  ;)

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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Steve Lamb]

Thursday, January 27, 2000, 12:19:36 PM, Alexander wrote:
> Are you going to be cloned (uhm... let me count...) about 133,(3) times? What
> a heroic attempt to eternity!;-)

Wanna bet?

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/01/26/1133249&mode=thread

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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 27 Jan 00, at 10:56, Steve Lamb wrote
about "Re: Why do I use The Bat?":

> > No. There are three constants in the universe: Pi, the speed of light
> > and I! ;-)
> 
> Pi has changed through the years, 

Steve, you are clearly worth the 0 mark in Math;-) Pi has never changed, it's 
the people who measured it;-)

> > I'm curious how much they'll have to beg for the preview pane.
> 
> Why?  People who submit to the preview pain are beyond my comprehension.

Me, too;-) (Moderators, I'm guilty!)

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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 27 Jan 00, at 19:38, Nico Schirwing wrote
about "Re: Why do I use The Bat?":

> > People tend to change. Have you ever thought about it?
> 
> No. There are three constants in the universe: Pi, the speed of light
> and I! ;-)

Well, there exist many more;-) m/e ratio, for one;-) As for _you_... well, give 
me your value first;-)

> >> Displaying the year of a date in two-digit format is not standard.
> > Why???
> 
> That question was worth some billion Dollars. Well, more the question
> of storing, but anyway...

For *me*, it's a question of screen real estate. Two characters more saved... 
As for the "On 27 Jan 00, at 19:38, Nico Schirwing wrote" line above, well, 
some might think "Jan 00" is a bit ugly (looks like a toilet for some ), but 
for me it again hardly matters as far as I'm perfectly understood.

> >  24.01.00 . Perfectly legal,
> > perfectly valid, perfectly standard.
> 
> > It's clearly *neither* 1900 *nor* 2100;-)
> 
> People like you will cause the Y3K-Problem... *g*

Are you going to be cloned (uhm... let me count...) about 133,(3) times? What 
a heroic attempt to eternity!;-)

> > Just FYI: David Harris has told on PM-WIN that "since some users
> > wish it to be configurable, it will become so" in 3.12c (in a week
> > or two).
> 
> I'm curious how much they'll have to beg for the preview pane.

Actually, it's already there: it's a matter of how you position the MDI childs of 
Pegasus. Provided that they remember their size/pozition (which they clearly 
do), one needing preview pane just needs to position the folder listing in the 
upper-right corner of the screen, the message reader -- in the lower right 
corner, and voila. Personally, I don't think preview pane is useful at all. As far 
as Pegasus is concerned, preview pane is said to be there later this year 
(maybe;-)).

-- 
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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Nico Schirwing]

Hello Tom,

> My Bat shows the year with four digits.  If yours doesn't, it is user
> configurable. [...]

Sorry, it was a comment about Pegasus. Thanks anyway for the hint! :-)

Nico
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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Steve Lamb]

Thursday, January 27, 2000, 11:18:17 AM, Nico wrote:
> Is there anyone who really likes something in that program? You're
> always talking about what you don't like...

Of course I do.  What I like doesn't need improvement.

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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Allie Martin]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:05:47 -0800, Tom Plunket wrote:

==8<

> My Bat shows the year with four digits.  If yours doesn't, it is user
> configurable.  Hit "Regional Settings" in the control panels and change
> the short date format (I recently did this due to the Y2K sort bug with
> Agent and 00 vs. 99).

TB! does it's own thing. It's date and time formatting is not affected
by the windows regional settings. :(

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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Nico Schirwing]

Hello Steve,

> and you'll fall to the one true constant of the universe, death.

It's highly off topic but: You'll agree that, in your world view, I'll
be constantly dead then. Kind of final upgrade. Right? :-)

> People who submit to the preview pain are beyond my comprehension.

The preview pane is one of those things that I really love in The Bat!
Is there anyone who really likes something in that program? You're
always talking about what you don't like...

Nico
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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Tom Plunket]

NS> Displaying the year of a date in two-digit format is not standard. It
NS> seems pretty useless to discuss such stuff. Why not make it
NS> configurable if some people don't like it?

My Bat shows the year with four digits.  If yours doesn't, it is user
configurable.  Hit "Regional Settings" in the control panels and
change the short date format (I recently did this due to the Y2K sort
bug with Agent and 00 vs. 99).

-tom!

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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Steve Lamb]

Thursday, January 27, 2000, 10:38:53 AM, Nico wrote:
> No. There are three constants in the universe: Pi, the speed of light
> and I! ;-)

Pi has changed through the years, the speed of light has been reduced in
certain mediums to a point where a beat up Yugo could outrun it, and you'll
fall to the one true constant of the universe, death.

What, me refute anything?  Never.  ;)

> I'm curious how much they'll have to beg for the preview pane.

Why?  People who submit to the preview pain are beyond my comprehension.


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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Nico Schirwing]

Hello Steve,

> Because it is the most acceptable trade-off of a field of clients
> that all are flawed and, IMHO, not "perfect" in any way.

I can only compare with the competitors and with what I need. That way
it comes pretty close to "perfect" for me.

Nico
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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Nico Schirwing]

Hello Allie,

> Of course Steve had to pounce on such sweeping statements and prove
> them wrong, and he's right. They are wrong. :)

There's just one thing left to say and that is:   ;-P

I guess we stop this discussion since it's obviously that the "perfect
program" means something different for everybody here. It's useless to
argue about taste.

Nico
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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Nico Schirwing]

Hello Alexander,

> People tend to change. Have you ever thought about it?

No. There are three constants in the universe: Pi, the speed of light
and I! ;-)

>> Displaying the year of a date in two-digit format is not standard.
> Why???

That question was worth some billion Dollars. Well, more the question
of storing, but anyway...

>  24.01.00 . Perfectly legal,
> perfectly valid, perfectly standard.

It's a bad habit in my opinion but if you can live with it I can, too.

> It's clearly *neither* 1900 *nor* 2100;-)

People like you will cause the Y3K-Problem... *g*

> Just FYI: David Harris has told on PM-WIN that "since some users
> wish it to be configurable, it will become so" in 3.12c (in a week
> or two).

I'm curious how much they'll have to beg for the preview pane.

Nico
__

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__
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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 27 Jan 00, at 11:45, Nico Schirwing wrote
about "Re: Why do I use The Bat?":

Okay, it's OT here, let's move it into private if you so wish;-) Anyhow, here's 
the reply:

> > I could supply here a pretty long list of *essential* features that
> > it doesn't support, but I won't.
> 
> I hope it's obious that I speak for me and not for the hole mankind.
> For me it's the best. It does nearly all I want.

People tend to change. Have you ever thought about it? 

> > in other words, they tried to tell you how all this is supposed to
> > work judging by the standards;-)
> 
> Displaying the year of a date in two-digit format is not standard. 

Why??? I've just come home having examined my students (in math;-)). In 
their documents, I signed this way: 
 24.01.00 . 
Perfectly legal, perfectly valid, perfectly standard. It's clearly *neither* 1900 
*nor* 2100;-)

> It seems pretty useless to discuss such stuff. Why not make it configurable if
> some people don't like it? 

Just FYI: David Harris has told on PM-WIN that "since some users wish it to 
be configurable, it will become so" in 3.12c (in a week or two).

> > BTW: the reasonable wishes are implemented "on the fly"...

> ...and the really annoying bugs stay where they are. Take a look at
> the editor. It's a nightmare.

Here I *totally* agree. But the MIME functionality is supported in full, contrary 
to the current TB...


-- 
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(St.Petersburg, Russia)
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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Steve Lamb]

Thursday, January 27, 2000, 2:57:23 AM, Nico wrote:
> But why DO you use The Bat then? I guess all of you wouldn't do if
> they thought they hadn't find the best client available. Not saying
> the perfect one. But one that's better than the other in many points.

Because it is the most acceptable trade-off of a field of clients that all
are flawed and, IMHO, not "perfect" in any way.  I have made it no secret why
I use TB!, so here it is again for the newbies.  I chose to use TB! because it
does not use MDI (which rules out most clients right there), has accounts
completely separate, had a partial IMAP implementation and most importantly of
all, active development.  It isn't features or that I think it is better than
all other clients, it is that it has active development whereas other clients
which I do consider better do not.  If that development goes a way that I
don't like, I'm more than willing to drop my support of the product and move
on.  To me being the best of a bad lot means you are, at best, mediocre.  Not
that I'm calling TB! mediocre, just pointing out that your argument of being
"better" than the others doesn't mean much when the whole field in question is
so poor to begin with that most issues and features are not address or
implemented correctly.  :P


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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Allie Martin]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:57:23 +0100, Nico Schirwing wrote:

==8<
> IMAP, PGP integration and the editor are not perfect to you. I'm
> satisfied with the way they're implemented. And I'm sure they'll
> improve them anyway.

> But why DO you use The Bat then? I guess all of you wouldn't do if
> they thought they hadn't find the best client available. Not saying
> the perfect one. But one that's better than the other in many points.

I haven't found the perfect (in my eyes) e-mail client yet. TB! however,
is the best that I have ever used for my needs. It has some shortcomings but
these don't get in my way as much as it does for others namely, Alex.

It was you who made the statements :
Nico>  The Bat unites all the features that other programs lack off under a
Nico> smart interface. I always thought that would be impossible, since
Nico> often you get cool features here and a nice interface there... but not
Nico> all together. Well, until I found The Bat!

Of course Steve had to pounce on such sweeping statements and prove them
wrong, and he's right. They are wrong. :)

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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Nico Schirwing]

Hello Alexander,

> I could supply here a pretty long list of *essential* features that
> it doesn't support, but I won't.

I hope it's obious that I speak for me and not for the hole mankind.
For me it's the best. It does nearly all I want.

> Nope, I do not. Have you been subscribed to PM-WIN?

I've been...

> in other words, they tried to tell you how all this is supposed to
> work judging by the standards;-)

Displaying the year of a date in two-digit format is not standard. It
seems pretty useless to discuss such stuff. Why not make it
configurable if some people don't like it?

> BTW: the reasonable wishes are implemented "on the fly"...

...and the really annoying bugs stay where they are. Take a look at
the editor. It's a nightmare.

Nico
__

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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Nico Schirwing]

Hello all,

since it seems to be always the same stuff that you're not satisfied
with I'll put my answer in one reply:

IMAP, PGP integration and the editor are not perfect to you. I'm
satisfied with the way they're implemented. And I'm sure they'll
improve them anyway.

But why DO you use The Bat then? I guess all of you wouldn't do if
they thought they hadn't find the best client available. Not saying
the perfect one. But one that's better than the other in many points.

Nico
__

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Re[2]: Why do I use The Bat? (was: "On editors and wishlists")

[tracer]

Hello Tom Plunket,
On Wed, 26 Jan 2000 13:53:18 -0800 GMT your local time,
which was Thursday, January 27, 2000, 4:53:18 AM (GMT+0700) my local time,
Tom Plunket wrote:


AVK>> Nope, I do not. Have you been subscribed to PM-WIN? Just for example:
AVK>> here, on this list, only few of us have *ever* read RFCs (well, Steve, Marck, 
AVK>> myself, have I forgotten anybody?).

> I've read and argued news-related RFCs, if that counts...  ;)

I read a few as well, but I prefer to read different things and even
less discussions about them(g)


> -tom!




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Best regards,
 
tracer

Using theBAT 1.41 / Beta1 with Windows NT
mail to : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I am using FireTalk: 321338
ICQ: on request 
Website: www.phuketcomputers.com



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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 27 Jan 00, at 1:13, Nico Schirwing wrote
about "Re: Why do I use The Bat?":

> > Except for a decent IMAP implementation...
> 
> I didn't try IMAP yet. What's wrong with it?

The only thing: there hardly exists any;-(

> > ...and seamless PGP integration...
> 
> How much more seamless do you want it? The Bat has the best PGP
> integration I ever used so far...

Hmmm QDPGP is _way_ better (IMHO);-)

> Look, I come from Pegasus. I know how a bad editor looks like. Believe
> me, this here is a good one. I feel in heaven. 

Well, when I need something more then what Pegasus' editor permits (and 
believe me, Pegasus' editor is *much* more horrible then you can only think 
about: you don't use 8bit symbols apparently -- but _I_ do... And this 
discrimination is the major point for me to look in the direction of TB, BTW), I 
use external one, linked to Pegasus via DDE capabilities of the latter. My 
preferred one is WinEdt. With TB I'm currently limited to using the internal 
one _only_.


-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 26, 2000, 4:13:38 PM, Nico wrote:
>> Except for a decent IMAP implementation...

> I didn't try IMAP yet. What's wrong with it?

TB! treats IMAP as a glorified POP3 server.  IMAP is administration of
remote folders as if they are local.  Completely different design.

>> ...and seamless PGP integration...

> How much more seamless do you want it? The Bat has the best PGP
> integration I ever used so far...

*cough*  I have to tell it to check the key/decrypt messages.  PMMail's is
seamless.  A signed message comes in, when I open it the status bar on the
bottom shows whether or not the key is valid.  When an encrypted message comes
in it prompts for my password and then decrypts it.  In either case, I never
see the PGP header/footer, just the body of the message.

TB!'s PGP integration compared to that is really, REALLY sloppy.

> Look, I come from Pegasus. I know how a bad editor looks like. Believe
> me, this here is a good one. I feel in heaven. Anyway, how do you want
> that support? Jumping out to another program for editing?

Yes.  Heaven to me is using the editor I want to (for me, vim) not what
they shovel on me.  I'm not at all pleased with the reflow options nor the
complete lack complex operations in an easy-to-use manner.

>> Hmmm, all?  What was that?  ;)

> A surprise I guess.

I'm still waiting for a client to do it "all" correctly.

-- 
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 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re[2]: Why do I use The Bat?

[G. Cowling, SRNA]

Wednesday, January 26, 2000, 7:13:38 PM, Nico wrote:


>> ...and seamless PGP integration...

NS> How much more seamless do you want it? The Bat has the best PGP
NS> integration I ever used so far...

Support for all of the PGP options.  Eudora used to support these
(Eudora Lite still does, AFAIK, although Eudora Pro has been "broken"
for several versions now).  For example, I would adjust my settings to
enable automatic decrypting and signature checking of incoming PGP
signed and/or encrypted files, and the mailer would do so w/o having
to manually execute a key sequence.

>> ...and external editor support...

NS> Look, I come from Pegasus. I know how a bad editor looks like. Believe
NS> me, this here is a good one. I feel in heaven. Anyway, how do you want
NS> that support? Jumping out to another program for editing?

If that's what it took, I suppose.  That option would provide a
certain flexibility.  Frankly, the virtual space nature of TB's editor
drives me nuts - I'm not used to and don't like it.  I wish I could
toggle it to something more familiar.

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Re: Why do I use The Bat?

[Nico Schirwing]

Hello Steve,

> Except for a decent IMAP implementation...

I didn't try IMAP yet. What's wrong with it?

> ...and seamless PGP integration...

How much more seamless do you want it? The Bat has the best PGP
integration I ever used so far...

> ...and external editor support...

Look, I come from Pegasus. I know how a bad editor looks like. Believe
me, this here is a good one. I feel in heaven. Anyway, how do you want
that support? Jumping out to another program for editing?

> Hmmm, all?  What was that?  ;)

A surprise I guess.

Nico
__

<---<--{@   http://inferiamoris.dreamhost.com/nico   @}-->--->
__
»Das Reh springt hoch, das Reh springt weit -- so laß es doch, es hat
doch Zeit!«

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Re: Why do I use The Bat? (was: "On editors and wishlists")

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 26 Jan 00, at 13:53, Tom Plunket wrote
about "Re: Why do I use The Bat? (was: "On":


> AVK> Nope, I do not. Have you been subscribed to PM-WIN? Just for example:
> AVK> here, on this list, only few of us have *ever* read RFCs (well, Steve, Marck, 
> AVK> myself, have I forgotten anybody?).
> 
> I've read and argued news-related RFCs, if that counts...  ;)

I ment RFCs 822 and MIME-related 2045-2049, actually. Plus maybe 1652, 
1869, 1896, 2231. Wait until RITs add newsreading;-) I've never known the 
relevant standards, since I rarely read news at all (and for _my_ needs, 
mozilla is quite all right);-)

-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
Thought for the day:
  If you can't learn to do it well, you should learn
  to enjoy doing it badly.

--- 
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Re: Why do I use The Bat? (was: "On editors and wishlists")

[Tom Plunket]

AVK> Nope, I do not. Have you been subscribed to PM-WIN? Just for example:
AVK> here, on this list, only few of us have *ever* read RFCs (well, Steve, Marck, 
AVK> myself, have I forgotten anybody?).

I've read and argued news-related RFCs, if that counts...  ;)


-tom!

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Re: Why do I use The Bat? (was: "On editors and wishlists")

[Alexander V. Kiselev]

Hi there!

On 26 Jan 00, at 19:51, Nico Schirwing wrote
about "Why do I use The Bat?...":

> >> It's simply the best.
> > Which did not respond to Tom's question.
> 
> It does. The Bat unites all the features that other programs lack off
> under a smart interface. I always thought that would be impossible,
> since often you get cool features here and a nice interface there...
> but not all together. Well, until I found The Bat!

I could supply here a pretty long list of *essential* features that it doesn't 
support, but I won't. Go and read RFCs. These are in plain English. It ought to 
be even much simplier a reading for you then for me.

> You get the feeling that someone really thought about what's useful
> and what's needed. Every day I find new features and I think "how
> could I ever live without this and that?".

Actually, right now I've sometimes got a reverse feeling... that's why I'm still 
using Pegasus.

> It looks like the development still goes on. That may sound silly but
> it's very important. If you're a former Pegasus user you'll know what
> I mean... 

Nope, I do not. Have you been subscribed to PM-WIN? Just for example: 
here, on this list, only few of us have *ever* read RFCs (well, Steve, Marck, 
myself, have I forgotten anybody?). On PM-WIN, at least 20 guys are much at 
home when dealing with standards. That is, they are a bit ... err... more 
educated, that's what I wanted to say. No personal offence, please, since I've 
counted myself this time on TBUDL rather then on PM-WIN;-)

> Support doesn't mean to explain to me why things don't work or why they can't
> be implemented or why they have to be this way or that way 

in other words, they tried to tell you how all this is supposed to work judging by 
the standards;-) Now try to look at it from their point of view: the userbase of 
Pegasus is *way* larger as of now, and they are forced to answer the same 
(usually stupid, like "why it doesn't work like in LookOut?") questions over and 
over again. BTW: the reasonable wishes are implemented "on the fly"...


-- 
SY, Alex
(St.Petersburg, Russia)
http://mph.phys.spbu.ru/~akiselev
--- 
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  Your reality check just bounced.

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Re: Why do I use The Bat? (was: "On editors and wishlists")

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 26, 2000, 10:51:34 AM, Nico wrote:
> It does. The Bat unites all the features that other programs lack off
> under a smart interface. I always thought that would be impossible,
> since often you get cool features here and a nice interface there...
> but not all together. Well, until I found The Bat!

Except for a decent IMAP implementation...

...and seamless PGP integration...

...and external editor support...

Hmmm, all?  What was that?  ;)

-- 
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Why do I use The Bat? (was: "On editors and wishlists")

[Nico Schirwing]

Hello Douglas,

>> It's simply the best.
> Which did not respond to Tom's question.

It does. The Bat unites all the features that other programs lack off
under a smart interface. I always thought that would be impossible,
since often you get cool features here and a nice interface there...
but not all together. Well, until I found The Bat!

You get the feeling that someone really thought about what's useful
and what's needed. Every day I find new features and I think "how
could I ever live without this and that?".

It looks like the development still goes on. That may sound silly but
it's very important. If you're a former Pegasus user you'll know what
I mean... Support doesn't mean to explain to me why things don't work
or why they can't be implemented or why they have to be this way or
that way (in other words: why others think they don't like it my way
or have no clue how to program it!). The Bat! is a kick in the ass of
all those people who say it doesn't work. It does. Look here.

It's simply the best today. Dot.

Nico
__

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