[Texascavers] TSA

[Carl Kunath]

I am reading with interest the various postings having to do with TSA.

For the benefit of those who have not purchased a copy of 50 Years Of Texas 
Caving, I have posted an abridged version of the TSA essay to my web site.  If 
you are a bit hazy as to where we came from, and how we came to be as we are, 
you will find this information essential to a fuller understanding.

This link will take you directly to that essay.

http://pages.suddenlink.net/carl-kunath/50_Years/Rise_Fall_of_TSA_(abridged).pdf

This link will take you to the root of the 50 Years section.  Scroll down if 
you would like to browse a few of the other portions.

http://pages.suddenlink.net/carl-kunath/50_Years/50_Years.html

Many thanks to all of you that have purchased a copy of 50 Years.  Your support 
is appreciated.

If any of you, as individuals or as an organization, would like to purchase a 
copy of 50 Years for donating to a library or historic society, I will pay the 
postage to the US destination of your choice or offer you a $5 discount for 
copies you pickup directly.  This is a wonderful opportunity to put a caving 
book in a place where the public will see it for years to come and to inscribe 
the flyleaf with your personalized message and contact data.  Don't forget your 
own grotto library!

===Carl Kunath

[Texascavers] Swaygo donation program

[Nico Escamilla]

This is a copy of Scott McCrea's (Swaygo co owner) post on Cavechat, maybe
the TCC, TCMA or other Texas
cave organization could be interested.

*Every year, Swaygo makes a donation to a worthy caving related
organization. We are still accepting nominations for benefactors. If you
know of an organization that could use some extra cash, tell
usabout them. Deadline for
submissions is Jan 31.
LINK *

RE: confirm subscribe to o...@texascavers.com

[Darla]

sign me up

[Texascavers] Devils Sinkhole Lidar project - Rocksprings Paper Article

[Geary Schindel]

This article on LIDAR appeared in the January 17, 2008 Rocksprings
Record and Texas Mohair Weekly.  The article was written by Andrew
Barnebey

 

On Friday night, January 4th Devils Sinkhole Society members were
treated to a demonstration of an advanced technology that the Visitors
Center will acquire later this year.

 

Real Earth Models, a Dallas-based company, is creating a
three-dimensional picture of the Devil's Sinkhole that guests will be
able to see in Rocksprings.  The technology is so new that no park
anywhere will have it but the Devils Sinkhole State Natural Area and
South Dakota's Mount Rushmore.

 

The Three-dimensional mapping technology has thus far only been used by
oil companies at significant cost.  Almost all of the mapping project
cost has been donated to the Sinkhole by REM, the Bureau of Economic
Geology (UT-Austin), Bat Conservation International, Texas Caves
Management Association, and many others.  Mr. Geary Schindel of the
Edwards Aquifer Commission has been a linchpin in the whole project,
too.

 

Guests at the preview put on pairs of high tech 3-D glasses ($250 each!)
to view examples of what REM has prepared for Mount Rushmore and an
Irish enterprise.  Guests were amazed as George Washington's nose poked
itself into their faces!

 

The technology to measure surfaces with laser beams has existed for a
while, but this Dallas company is now able to put photographs onto the
laser "point cloud" to create an astoundingly real picture.  Once
installed, visitors to the Sinkhole will get a full-color tour of the
inside of the cave, a major advancement in the services the SNA and
Sinkhole Society provide.

 

Local guests at the preview hosted by Ranger Rand Rosales included Mayor
Rachel Gallegos, Jesse and Dell Smith Aldrich, Ruth Braddley, Ben
Banahan, Andrew Barnebey, Dorothy and Presley Hatley, Modell McCoy, Edda
Rae Moody, and Bobby Nix.  Representatives of the laser-modeling
company, including inventor Xue Ning and owner Bobbie Nubert,
photographers, and spelunkers also attended and viewed the incredible
images.

 

All weekend Ranger Rosales and the crew worked on finishing the
photography and laser mapping of the Sinkhole.  A final product may be
ready as soon as May 2008.

Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread

[speleosteele]

Well, I didn't write it.  I saw it years ago and have hung on to it.

Bill 

 Charles Goldsmith  wrote: 
> You certainly do have a way with words :)
> 
> On 1/22/08, speleoste...@tx.rr.com  wrote:
> > It reminds me of this:
> >
> > The Story of Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
> >
> > There were four people named EVERYBODY, SOMEBODY, ANYBODY, and NOBODY.  If 
> > there was an important job to be done, EVERYBODY was asked to do it.  
> > EVERYBODY was sure SOMEBODY would do it.  ANYBODY could have done it but 
> > NOBODY did it.  SOMEBODY got angry about that because it was really 
> > EVERYBODY'S job.  EVERYBODY thought ANYBODY could do it, but NOBODY 
> > realized that EVERYBODY wouldn't do it.  It ended up that EVERYBODY blamed 
> > SOMEBODY when NOBODY did what ANYBODY could have done.
> >

Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread

[Don Arburn]

On Jan 20, 2008, at 8:04 PM, Andy Grubbs wrote:


This is a reply I sent to Fritz, RD and John Brooks the other day

" If it wasnt for the organizations like NSS and TSA, American  
cavers would

still be flashlight toting spelunkers, instead of the robot diving,
Lechuguilla mapping,
geomicrobiological investigating, karst protecting, survey  
inventorying,

deep cave expeditionary speleonauts that we are


These things are due to their individual educations and drive for  
excellence, not the TSA.


I wasn't aware that Lechuguilla was a TSA project, and I'm fairly  
certain that survey inventorying is a TSS deal, and TCC and TCMA are  
really into karst protecting. I could be wrong but I thought the  
DepthX project was a NASA & Bill Stone deal, NOT TSA.



plus; we get to drink a lot of beer when we get together "


This is the result of the TCR.


This to me summs up the real benefit of caver organizations.


Such as the UT Grotto or Bexar Grotto or Maverick Grotto etc.?


Way too many
people can not see this for what it is.


The Texas Caver.


SiO2 is the sand on the beach and
the glass windshield in your car.  Try to drink fine wine out of a  
handful

of sand.


Um..., yeah.


AGG

Re: [Texascavers] Sewer-lunking in Australia :

[Robert Tait]

Ah... the memories
For reasons lost in obscurity left behind in the early '70s, we called it
sewerhopping, something me and a couple of buddies
"invented".  I can still pull manhole lids off with my
fingers (one finger in each hand goes into the little hole, tense and
lift).  We started in the pipe behind  the house in Dayton,
Ohio. It was 5' in diameter.  The game was to put a marker by each
manhole, usually a rolled up piece of paper stuck in one of the holes.
Then.. .we went topside and tried to find it.  No compass. No tape.
Simply never occurred to us.  Dead reckoning. Waisted many an hour
of my youth perusing that pipe.  Rain was not a huge deal as we
could always clime up to street level at a manhole, and push the lid if
we had to. It never was a serious problem. The pipe did neck down the
further up it got.  It always had water flowing in it. I think we
found the source, but don't recall now.
The real risk, and one I was oblivious to, and never experienced, was
some idiot dumping gas or other solvents into the storm sewer. 
Later, one of my high schools buddies dumped several gallons of gasoline
in the storm sewer (such innocent time), in the process of fixing his
Volkswagon.  The result was a 3 block long pipe bomb that blew lids
off manholes, and made quite a noise. 
Later, I built a periscope that would fit through the holes in the
manhole covers. It was crude and everything was backwards, but it
worked.  Version II had a mirror on a flexible hinge so when a car
ran over it, we could just bend it back.
It turns out that part of the Miami Erie Canal fed into the Miami river
and long ago was covered and covered into a storm sewer.  You gain
access to the old canal by boat. It's a bit scary, as there are giant
metal shutters over the opening to prevent back flooding in case of high
water.   You can canoe in about 1/4 mile then it breaks into
three large walking passages. Brick walls in places, concrete in otheres,
as I recall.  One stretch about 30' long,  (the wall was warm
there) was covered with cockroaches.  In another stretch, there were
30 or so Coy swimming in the water. 
After exploring for several hours we canoed to discover that a fellow had
started fishing over the opening. An elderly guy.  We came shooting
out, and asked which way to Cincinnati. He stared fore a second, and then
just pointed down stream.
Oh Yah, during heavy rains the culvert behind the house would fill to
about a foot from the top of the pipe. We would pop the closes manhole
and drop into the pipe and ride out to the creek. It was maybe 60'. 

Maybe Television and computer games ARE good things. My kids never tried
anything that stupid.
Rob..

At 04:51 PM 1/22/2008, jerryat...@aol.com wrote:
Tunnel vision is costing
lives



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Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread

[Charles Goldsmith]

You certainly do have a way with words :)

On 1/22/08, speleoste...@tx.rr.com  wrote:
> It reminds me of this:
>
> The Story of Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
>
> There were four people named EVERYBODY, SOMEBODY, ANYBODY, and NOBODY.  If 
> there was an important job to be done, EVERYBODY was asked to do it.  
> EVERYBODY was sure SOMEBODY would do it.  ANYBODY could have done it but 
> NOBODY did it.  SOMEBODY got angry about that because it was really 
> EVERYBODY'S job.  EVERYBODY thought ANYBODY could do it, but NOBODY realized 
> that EVERYBODY wouldn't do it.  It ended up that EVERYBODY blamed SOMEBODY 
> when NOBODY did what ANYBODY could have done.
>

[Texascavers] Word of the Day

[Don Arburn]

At Refdesk.com

word of the day

spelunker
Definition: (noun) One who explores caves chiefly as a hobby; a caver.
Synonyms:   potholer, spelaeologist, speleologist
Usage:	The spelunkers were lost in the cave and worried that their  
minimal rations, two granola bars and a bag of salted peanuts, would  
not last long.

Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread

[speleosteele]

It reminds me of this:

The Story of Everybody, Somebody, Anybody, and Nobody.
 
There were four people named EVERYBODY, SOMEBODY, ANYBODY, and NOBODY.  If 
there was an important job to be done, EVERYBODY was asked to do it.  EVERYBODY 
was sure SOMEBODY would do it.  ANYBODY could have done it but NOBODY did it.  
SOMEBODY got angry about that because it was really EVERYBODY'S job.  EVERYBODY 
thought ANYBODY could do it, but NOBODY realized that EVERYBODY wouldn't do it. 
 It ended up that EVERYBODY blamed SOMEBODY when NOBODY did what ANYBODY could 
have done.

 Diana Tomchick  wrote: 
> Hey RD,
> 
> If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer for  
> a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA  
> office for next year?
> 
> Diana
> 
> On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:03 PM, RD Milhollin wrote:
> 
> > Again Fritz,
> >
> > I am not bashing anyone or any organization, just passing along my  
> > own views
> > on the question of the cost/benefits of TSA membership.
> >
> > So, again, the "enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR" and  
> > "various
> > caving activities" is not tied to TSA membership. The Spring  
> > Convention is.
> >
> > "TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving  
> > areas
> > that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access" : I agree  
> > that the
> > TCMA and also the TCC enables access to caves, but I don't see how  
> > the TSA
> > does, except through organizational contributions to land acquisition
> > activities, in which the TSA acts as a conduit only. At least there  
> > are no
> > administrative fees or overhead costs associated.
> >
> > "officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for  
> > dues" Why
> > would you avoid using your own judgement in estimating appropriate  
> > dues for
> > an organization you belong to. I suppose we all are becoming a  
> > nation of
> > followers, I just supposed cavers would be on the trailing edge of  
> > this
> > trend.
> >
> > "I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more  
> > involved
> > they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our  
> > caves
> > and their inhabitants." Agreed, but there are two ways to make the  
> > equation
> > of income generation work. The current scheme seems to be few  
> > members with
> > high dues per member. One unintended (?) result of this policy is  
> > to keep
> > the organization closely held, meaning old-timers tend to dominate,  
> > which
> > makes it a conservative group, ie preservation of status quo/slow  
> > to change.
> > The alternative approach is to have a large membership base with  
> > small dues
> > per member. This approach could generate the same revenue, and  
> > involve more
> > cavers, new cavers, young cavers, as icing on top.
> >
> > "I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived,  
> > including
> > some of these dumb posts..." I have been trying to point out that  
> > there is
> > not a causal link between this enjoyment and TSA membership. This  
> > list, for
> > instance is not owned by the TSA. It is made possible entirely  
> > through the
> > good graces of the list owner, Charles Goldsmith.
> >
> > Now, more unsubstantiated views on the subject from cavers I have  
> > talked
> > with recently. One, a qualified candidate for the position of  
> > newsletter
> > editor for the UT Grotto, replied, somewhat surprised at my  
> > suggestion that
> > the UTG needed a newsletter, replied "Why? We have the Texas caver".
> > Another, very involved Texas caver stated in confidence that "the only
> > benefit you get from TSA membership is the TC". I know that the TSA  
> > members
> > who have stated opposing viewpoints are genuinely proud of their
> > organization and the work they see it as accomplishing. But I see  
> > it as
> > necessary to discount that dedication somewhat by the "buy-in" that  
> > members
> > of organizations usually get by belonging to a group, meaning it is  
> > slightly
> > more difficuly for them to view the organization objectively as  
> > whole from
> > inside. I, and others before me, are suggesting change, but it is  
> > going to
> > be hard to accomplish due to the nature of the organization
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 1:13 PM
> > To: RD Milhollin
> > Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
> > Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
> >
> >
> > RD,
> >
> > As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for  
> > myself as
> > to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of  
> > Charles
> > Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to  
> > belong
> > to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us  
> > march to
> > a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary.  
> > This is
> > good. From kids to geezers, ou

RE: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread

[RD Milhollin]

Diane and Charles,

I don't know if you have followed the entire thread (name change and all)
but my argument has basically two components: that I and others feel that
there is not sufficient return on an individual level to justify $20
membership for the TSA; and that the situatiojn could be improved by
restructuring the format of the TEXAS CAVER into a digest of the "best of"
articles from the various Texas grotto newsletters. Go back and look at
today's posts with that in mind and see if that makes more sense. Perhaps I
didn't tie all that together sufficiently.

I don't want to run for office since I don't feel that membership is
justified. I would like to see change to make the organization available to
more people, and with a better grounded basis of benefit for the member.

Cheers.
RD

-Original Message-
From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org]
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:17 PM
To: Don Arburn
Cc: Texas Cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread


Actually he is, re-read his last sentence.  He does not spell out what
change, just that he and others want change.

Charles

On 1/22/08, Don Arburn  wrote:
> I don't believe he is looking to effect change. I believe he is
> looking for a reason for the TSA to exist, other than it giving us the
> Caver.
>
> On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Diana Tomchick wrote:
>
> > Hey RD,
> >
> > If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer for
> > a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA
> > office for next year?
> >
> > Diana
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- donarb...@mac.com
>
>
>
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>

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Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread

[Don Arburn]

Agreed. But I should let RD speak for himself.

On Jan 22, 2008, at 6:27 PM, Charles Goldsmith wrote:


Don, this is everyone's business that caves in our area, even
non-members of TSA, because anyone who is not a member has a reason,
and their input is just as valid :)

On 1/22/08, Don Arburn  wrote:

We spoke at length this last weekend, yes he did state that in his
email, and no I'm not defending his post, but the gist of the
conversation was just what I said. I will now mind my own business.

On Jan 22, 2008, at 6:17 PM, Charles Goldsmith wrote:

Actually he is, re-read his last sentence.  He does not spell out  
what

change, just that he and others want change.

Charles

On 1/22/08, Don Arburn  wrote:

I don't believe he is looking to effect change. I believe he is
looking for a reason for the TSA to exist, other than it giving us
the
Caver.

On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Diana Tomchick wrote:


Hey RD,

If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer  
for

a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA
office for next year?

Diana







--- donarb...@mac.com




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Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread

[Charles Goldsmith]

Don, this is everyone's business that caves in our area, even
non-members of TSA, because anyone who is not a member has a reason,
and their input is just as valid :)

On 1/22/08, Don Arburn  wrote:
> We spoke at length this last weekend, yes he did state that in his
> email, and no I'm not defending his post, but the gist of the
> conversation was just what I said. I will now mind my own business.
>
> On Jan 22, 2008, at 6:17 PM, Charles Goldsmith wrote:
>
> > Actually he is, re-read his last sentence.  He does not spell out what
> > change, just that he and others want change.
> >
> > Charles
> >
> > On 1/22/08, Don Arburn  wrote:
> >> I don't believe he is looking to effect change. I believe he is
> >> looking for a reason for the TSA to exist, other than it giving us
> >> the
> >> Caver.
> >>
> >> On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Diana Tomchick wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hey RD,
> >>>
> >>> If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer for
> >>> a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA
> >>> office for next year?
> >>>
> >>> Diana
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- donarb...@mac.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -
> >> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> >>
> >>
> >
> > -
> > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
> >
>
>

Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread

[Don Arburn]

We spoke at length this last weekend, yes he did state that in his  
email, and no I'm not defending his post, but the gist of the  
conversation was just what I said. I will now mind my own business.


On Jan 22, 2008, at 6:17 PM, Charles Goldsmith wrote:


Actually he is, re-read his last sentence.  He does not spell out what
change, just that he and others want change.

Charles

On 1/22/08, Don Arburn  wrote:

I don't believe he is looking to effect change. I believe he is
looking for a reason for the TSA to exist, other than it giving us  
the

Caver.

On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Diana Tomchick wrote:


Hey RD,

If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer for
a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA
office for next year?

Diana







--- donarb...@mac.com




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Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread

[Charles Goldsmith]

Actually he is, re-read his last sentence.  He does not spell out what
change, just that he and others want change.

Charles

On 1/22/08, Don Arburn  wrote:
> I don't believe he is looking to effect change. I believe he is
> looking for a reason for the TSA to exist, other than it giving us the
> Caver.
>
> On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Diana Tomchick wrote:
>
> > Hey RD,
> >
> > If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer for
> > a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA
> > office for next year?
> >
> > Diana
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- donarb...@mac.com
>
>
>
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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>
>

Fwd: [NMCAVER] The January 2008 issue of the Permian Basin Speleological Society's "The Hole News" is on the Web!

[Charles Goldsmith]

FYI from Bill Bentley, email problems...

-- Forwarded message --

The January 2008 issue "Volume 23 # 1" of the Permian Basin
Speleological Society's "The Hole News" is now on the web in Adobe PDF
format.

It can be found at the URL listed below:

http://www.caver.net/pbss/holenews/pbss1-08.pdf

And as always more exciting years of back issues can be found at the
following URL:

http://www.caver.net/pbss/holenews.html

Enjoy and Cave Safely,

Bill

[NMCAVER] The January 2008 issue of the Permian Basin Speleological Society's "The Hole News" is on the Web!

[Bill Bentley]

The January 2008 issue "Volume 23 # 1" of the Permian Basin Speleological 
Society's "The Hole News" is now on the web in Adobe PDF format.
It can be found at the URL listed below: 

http://www.caver.net/pbss/holenews/pbss1-08.pdf

And as always more exciting years of back issues can be found at the following 
URL:

http://www.caver.net/pbss/holenews.html

Enjoy and Cave Safely,

Bill






___
NMCAVER mailing list
nmca...@caver.net
http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net

Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread

[Don Arburn]

I don't believe he is looking to effect change. I believe he is  
looking for a reason for the TSA to exist, other than it giving us the  
Caver.


On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Diana Tomchick wrote:


Hey RD,

If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer for  
a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA  
office for next year?


Diana







--- donarb...@mac.com




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Re: [Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread

[Diana Tomchick]

Hey RD,

If you want to effect change in the TSA, why don't you volunteer for  
a position in the organization and/or volunteer to run for a TSA  
office for next year?


Diana

On Jan 22, 2008, at 5:03 PM, RD Milhollin wrote:


Again Fritz,

I am not bashing anyone or any organization, just passing along my  
own views

on the question of the cost/benefits of TSA membership.

So, again, the "enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR" and  
"various
caving activities" is not tied to TSA membership. The Spring  
Convention is.


"TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving  
areas
that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access" : I agree  
that the
TCMA and also the TCC enables access to caves, but I don't see how  
the TSA

does, except through organizational contributions to land acquisition
activities, in which the TSA acts as a conduit only. At least there  
are no

administrative fees or overhead costs associated.

"officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for  
dues" Why
would you avoid using your own judgement in estimating appropriate  
dues for
an organization you belong to. I suppose we all are becoming a  
nation of
followers, I just supposed cavers would be on the trailing edge of  
this

trend.

"I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more  
involved
they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our  
caves
and their inhabitants." Agreed, but there are two ways to make the  
equation
of income generation work. The current scheme seems to be few  
members with
high dues per member. One unintended (?) result of this policy is  
to keep
the organization closely held, meaning old-timers tend to dominate,  
which
makes it a conservative group, ie preservation of status quo/slow  
to change.
The alternative approach is to have a large membership base with  
small dues
per member. This approach could generate the same revenue, and  
involve more

cavers, new cavers, young cavers, as icing on top.

"I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived,  
including
some of these dumb posts..." I have been trying to point out that  
there is
not a causal link between this enjoyment and TSA membership. This  
list, for
instance is not owned by the TSA. It is made possible entirely  
through the

good graces of the list owner, Charles Goldsmith.

Now, more unsubstantiated views on the subject from cavers I have  
talked
with recently. One, a qualified candidate for the position of  
newsletter
editor for the UT Grotto, replied, somewhat surprised at my  
suggestion that

the UTG needed a newsletter, replied "Why? We have the Texas caver".
Another, very involved Texas caver stated in confidence that "the only
benefit you get from TSA membership is the TC". I know that the TSA  
members

who have stated opposing viewpoints are genuinely proud of their
organization and the work they see it as accomplishing. But I see  
it as
necessary to discount that dedication somewhat by the "buy-in" that  
members
of organizations usually get by belonging to a group, meaning it is  
slightly
more difficuly for them to view the organization objectively as  
whole from
inside. I, and others before me, are suggesting change, but it is  
going to

be hard to accomplish due to the nature of the organization
-Original Message-
From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 1:13 PM
To: RD Milhollin
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver


RD,

As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for  
myself as
to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of  
Charles
Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to  
belong
to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us  
march to
a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary.  
This is
good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out  
of the

norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime.



For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it  
for the
enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention  
and at
various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows  
me to
visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise  
know of or
be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially  
younger
ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with  
what the

officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues.



I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more  
involved
they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our  
caves
and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of  
enjoyment
derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of  
being a
Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I  
liked

caves.

RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver

[Fritz Holt]

RD, 

I thought that this string had died but apparently not. It will take me
a few days to find the time to respond to your post, as it did you to
mine. Mine will not be as comprehensive or as well thought out as yours
but I will give it a shot, whether it is my best or not. I am a little
slow and it takes me a while to ponder what I am going to say so
therefore I often hesitate (procrastinate) to do anything that requires
thinking. Don't expect much beyond my original response below but who
knows, I may think of something.

Best wishes, Fritz

 

  _  

From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:48 PM
To: List: OT-TexasCavers; Fritz Holt
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver

 

Again Fritz,

 

I am not bashing anyone or any organization, just passing along my own
views on the question of the cost/benefits of TSA membership.

 

So, again, the "enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR" and
"various caving activities" is not tied to TSA membership. The Spring
Convention is.

 

"TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas
that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access" : I agree that
the TCMA and also the TCC enables access to caves, but I don't see how
the TSA does, except through organizational contributions to land
acquisition activities, in which the TSA acts as a conduit only. At
least there are no administrative fees or overhead costs associated.

 

"officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues"
Why would you avoid using your own judgement in estimating appropriate
dues for an organization you belong to. I suppose we all are becoming a
nation of followers, I just supposed cavers would be on the trailing
edge of this trend.

 

"I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more
involved  they can become with education, acquisition and conservation
of our caves and their inhabitants." Agreed, but there are two ways to
make the equation of income generation work. The current scheme seems to
be few members with high dues per member. One unintended (?) result of
this policy is to keep the organization closely held, meaning old-timers
tend to dominate, which makes it a conservative group, ie preservation
of status quo/slow to change. The alternative approach is to have a
large membership base with small dues per member. This approach could
generate the same revenue, and involve more cavers, new cavers, young
cavers, as icing on top. 

 

"I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived,
including some of these dumb posts..." I have been trying to point out
that there is not a causal link between this enjoyment and TSA
membership. This list, for instance is not owned by the TSA. It is made
possible entirely through the good graces of the list owner, Charles
Goldsmith. 

 

Now, more unsubstantiated views on the subject from cavers I have talked
with recently. One, a qualified candidate for the position of newsletter
editor for the UT Grotto, replied, somewhat surprised at my suggestion
that the UTG needed a newsletter, replied "Why? We have the Texas
caver". Another, very involved Texas caver stated in confidence that
"the only benefit you get from TSA membership is the TC". I know that
the TSA members who have stated opposing viewpoints are genuinely proud
of their organization and the work they see it as accomplishing. But I
see it as necessary to discount that dedication somewhat by the "buy-in"
that members of organizations usually get by belonging to a group,
meaning it is slightly more difficuly for them to view the organization
objectively as whole from inside. I, and others before me, are
suggesting change, but it is going to be hard to accomplish due to the
nature of the organization  

-Original Message-
From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 1:13 PM
To: RD Milhollin
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver

RD,

As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak
for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the
thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your
thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a
common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for
some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our
common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and
satisfying pastime.

 

For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth
it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring
convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as
TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would
not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that
many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight

RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver

[RD Milhollin]

Again Fritz,

I am not bashing anyone or any organization, just passing along my own views
on the question of the cost/benefits of TSA membership.

So, again, the "enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR" and "various
caving activities" is not tied to TSA membership. The Spring Convention is.

"TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas
that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access" : I agree that the
TCMA and also the TCC enables access to caves, but I don't see how the TSA
does, except through organizational contributions to land acquisition
activities, in which the TSA acts as a conduit only. At least there are no
administrative fees or overhead costs associated.

"officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues" Why
would you avoid using your own judgement in estimating appropriate dues for
an organization you belong to. I suppose we all are becoming a nation of
followers, I just supposed cavers would be on the trailing edge of this
trend.

"I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved
they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves
and their inhabitants." Agreed, but there are two ways to make the equation
of income generation work. The current scheme seems to be few members with
high dues per member. One unintended (?) result of this policy is to keep
the organization closely held, meaning old-timers tend to dominate, which
makes it a conservative group, ie preservation of status quo/slow to change.
The alternative approach is to have a large membership base with small dues
per member. This approach could generate the same revenue, and involve more
cavers, new cavers, young cavers, as icing on top.

"I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including
some of these dumb posts..." I have been trying to point out that there is
not a causal link between this enjoyment and TSA membership. This list, for
instance is not owned by the TSA. It is made possible entirely through the
good graces of the list owner, Charles Goldsmith.

Now, more unsubstantiated views on the subject from cavers I have talked
with recently. One, a qualified candidate for the position of newsletter
editor for the UT Grotto, replied, somewhat surprised at my suggestion that
the UTG needed a newsletter, replied "Why? We have the Texas caver".
Another, very involved Texas caver stated in confidence that "the only
benefit you get from TSA membership is the TC". I know that the TSA members
who have stated opposing viewpoints are genuinely proud of their
organization and the work they see it as accomplishing. But I see it as
necessary to discount that dedication somewhat by the "buy-in" that members
of organizations usually get by belonging to a group, meaning it is slightly
more difficuly for them to view the organization objectively as whole from
inside. I, and others before me, are suggesting change, but it is going to
be hard to accomplish due to the nature of the organization
  -Original Message-
  From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com]
  Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 1:13 PM
  To: RD Milhollin
  Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
  Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver


  RD,

  As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself
as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of
Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to
belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us
march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary.
This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of
the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime.



  For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the
enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at
various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to
visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or
be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger
ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the
officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues.



  I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved
they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves
and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment
derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a
Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked
caves.

  Fritz





--

  From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net]
  Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM
  To: Fritz Holt
  Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver



  Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said

[Texascavers] Hey Logan McNatt.....

[Don Cooper]

Caver trying to contact other caver.
[I hope that is an acceptable use of cavetex...]
My number is 590-0467 - so if he gets this message he can skip a step and
call me direct.
Actually that'd be better because I'm about to be off the world wide web
until tomorrow.
-WaV

[Texascavers] TSA/Texas Caver Thread

[RD Milhollin]

Again Fritz,

I am not bashing anyone or any organization, just passing along my own views
on the question of the cost/benefits of TSA membership.

So, again, the "enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR" and "various
caving activities" is not tied to TSA membership. The Spring Convention is.

"TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas
that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access" : I agree that the
TCMA and also the TCC enables access to caves, but I don't see how the TSA
does, except through organizational contributions to land acquisition
activities, in which the TSA acts as a conduit only. At least there are no
administrative fees or overhead costs associated.

"officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues" Why
would you avoid using your own judgement in estimating appropriate dues for
an organization you belong to. I suppose we all are becoming a nation of
followers, I just supposed cavers would be on the trailing edge of this
trend.

"I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved
they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves
and their inhabitants." Agreed, but there are two ways to make the equation
of income generation work. The current scheme seems to be few members with
high dues per member. One unintended (?) result of this policy is to keep
the organization closely held, meaning old-timers tend to dominate, which
makes it a conservative group, ie preservation of status quo/slow to change.
The alternative approach is to have a large membership base with small dues
per member. This approach could generate the same revenue, and involve more
cavers, new cavers, young cavers, as icing on top.

"I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including
some of these dumb posts..." I have been trying to point out that there is
not a causal link between this enjoyment and TSA membership. This list, for
instance is not owned by the TSA. It is made possible entirely through the
good graces of the list owner, Charles Goldsmith.

Now, more unsubstantiated views on the subject from cavers I have talked
with recently. One, a qualified candidate for the position of newsletter
editor for the UT Grotto, replied, somewhat surprised at my suggestion that
the UTG needed a newsletter, replied "Why? We have the Texas caver".
Another, very involved Texas caver stated in confidence that "the only
benefit you get from TSA membership is the TC". I know that the TSA members
who have stated opposing viewpoints are genuinely proud of their
organization and the work they see it as accomplishing. But I see it as
necessary to discount that dedication somewhat by the "buy-in" that members
of organizations usually get by belonging to a group, meaning it is slightly
more difficuly for them to view the organization objectively as whole from
inside. I, and others before me, are suggesting change, but it is going to
be hard to accomplish due to the nature of the organization
-Original Message-
From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 1:13 PM
To: RD Milhollin
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver


RD,

As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as
to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles
Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong
to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to
a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is
good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the
norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime.



For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the
enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at
various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to
visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or
be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger
ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the
officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues.



I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved
they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves
and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment
derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a
Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked
caves.

Fritz







From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM
To: Fritz Holt
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver



Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits
and the value you pl

[ot_caving] hybrid news

[David Locklear]

The 2009 Ford Escape and Mercury Mariner will gain .2 liters of engine
displacement ( meaning more power ), yet be more fuel efficient.
( possibly getting 1 mpg better )

I think this is because they are replacing the 4 speed automatic transmission
with a 6-speed automatic.

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[Texascavers] Re: New Wave Cave

[Alex Sproul]

Don Cash said:
>I was hoping to get the word out to cavers and climbers about this show. 
>Any chance you can help us get the info out. Any other groups I can 
>promote this to?

Absolutely!  Enter it in the NSS Video Salon! 

At a minimum, that will get it shown to a thousand or so cavers attending the 
NSS Convention in Florida this August.  TP&W has entered this competition 
with several of its underground episodes in the past, and has even won Best 
of Show.

Even better, also enter it in SpeleMedia, the video salon of the 2009 
International Congress of Speleology, to be held at Schreiner University.   
There it will be seen by over 2,000 speleologists from all over the world, and 
the nearby Devils Sinkhole will already be a huge point of interest for them.  
Details of the SpeleMedia aren't firm yet, but Geary will point you to them in 
a few months.

And if TP&W is going to put it out on DVD, they'll sell a bunch of them at the 
ICS!

I can't wait to see this project!

Alex

PS  You may recall that I worked with Bill Steele and your footage of Steven 
Foster to produce the Epilogue to the Devils Sinkhole film a few years back.



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Re: [Texascavers] Sewer-lunking in Australia :

[Don Cooper]

That reminds me of my first "wild caving" experiences.  Shreveport Louisiana
is pretty far from any natural caves - but as a kid, me and my friends used
to go exploring in underground storm water runoff conduits.  Between open
sections of concrete ditches, some tunnels would go for hundreds of feet
underneath buildings and roads and some would bifurcate into smaller,
scarier crawl ways.
It was a great place to find spiders, snakes, dead animals and assorted
flotsam.
-WaV

On Jan 22, 2008 3:51 PM,  wrote:

>  Tunnel vision is costing lives
>
> By Kara Lawrence
>
> January 22, 2008 06:00am
> Article from: [image: The Daily 
> Telegraph]
>
>

[Texascavers] Sewer-lunking in Australia :

[JerryAtkin]

 
Tunnel vision is costing lives
By Kara Lawrence 
January 22, 2008 06:00am 
Article from:  (http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/) 
 
WHEN it rains, no drains. That is rule No.1 in the "art" of  drain-exploring 
as outlined in the manifesto of Michael Carlton, aka  Predator.

 
It is a short, snappy saying which could have prevented the tragedy which  
befell three young people who were trapped in a Sydney stormwater drain on  
Sunday.  
A sudden squall of rain struck, flooding the drain and killing a woman and  
man aged in their 20s. Another man was lucky to escape with his life after 
being  washed from the drain into Lurline Bay, off Sydney's Eastern Beaches.  
Carlton, who died himself about five years ago, pioneered a secret  
underground movement in Australia – one now referred to as urban exploration, 
or  urbex 
for short.  
But it was a slow and creeping death from cancer – not violent accident –  
that claimed Carlton's life earlier this decade.  
Despite his love of illegally exploring stormwater drains and other tunnels,  
Carlton knew that sudden injury and death stalked those who followed this  
dangerous pursuit.  
One of the founding members of Sydney's Cave Clan in the early 1990s, Carlton 
 had explored 147 drains in six states, as well as rail tunnels, abandoned  
bunkers and other forbidden underground areas.  
Using this experience, he penned a tome of advice addressing virtually every  
conceivable danger in his "sprawling manifesto on the art of drain 
exploring".  
In the document, which is dated 1999 and posted on the internet, he advised  
on how to avoid being trapped in the dark, succumbing to toxic gases and  
encountering nasty microbes from filthy water or nesting bats.  
Yet Carlton saved his most important advice to his followers for the final  
chapter, aptly entitled: "Oh s..., it's raining, help!"  
"A large catchment can dump a couple of megalitres of water into a drain in a 
 few minutes," Carton wrote.  
"This and its debris (wood planks, old refrigerators, bottles, etc) will  
travel down the drain with frightening speed ... 50km/h and higher.  
"You will be continually bashed around by the turbulence and totally  
powerless to grab anything at such a speed if it catches you.  
"If you don't drown you will probably suffer serious physical and  
psychological trauma."  
It is a terrifying insight into what must have confronted the three who were  
exploring the Kingsford stormwater drain, nicknamed The Fortress by Carlton  
himself.  
The Fortress holds a memorial shrine to Carlton and the Cave Clan website  
yesterday held a posting by someone who noted the irony.  
"Please tell me those poor kids didn't die visiting Predator's memorial,"  
said the posting.  
As sudden heavy rain struck Sydney about 6.30pm on Sunday, the rain would  
have poured into the drain and begun the tumultuous journey to the sea –  
specifically Lurline Bay south of Sydney – where it emptied via a large grate  
with 
vertical metal bars.  
The first sign of trouble would have been the subtle movement of air in the  
still dry area. The whisper of distant moving water would have gradually built 
 to a roar.  
Then the three would have been swept from their feet – bashed by debris as  
they struggled uselessly to fight the water. Finally the metal bars against  
which the water rushed would have suddenly stopped their progress.  
The survivor, whether by his own efforts or pure luck, managed to pass  
through these grates and into the sea, before being rescued by a heroic local  
teenager who risked his own life to do so.  
"Predator" made the gap in the bars with a car jack, as he revealed in his  
own manifesto, which detailed his exploration of the seaside end of the drain.  
The dangers of such pursuits would boggle most minds, but a then-member of  
Cave Clan gave an insight into their odd attraction during a 2006 interview  
posted online yesterday.  
The member, Silogen (members rarely use their real named for fear of being  
prosecuted), said it was a case of feeling unique, of wanting to "see what 
other  people don't see".  
"It's like caving except it's caving with the novelty of being below  
suburbia," Silogen said.  
He said numerous Sydney landmarks had hidden troves for the intrepid beneath  
them.  
"It's just amazing being underground. It's amazing being under the Sydney  
Opera House and, you know, paddling out of a stormwater drain that comes out  
(underneath) the Opera House," he said.  
"It's amazing being in abandoned cable tunnels that run under The Domain or  
walking through the subway tunnels underneath St James in the middle of the  
night," he said.  
"Silogen" also said that, while urbex involved trespassing, there was no  
malice.  
He also said there had been no injuries among Cave Clanners in almost 20  
years because "we know our stuff".  
It is unclear if the woman and man killed on Sunday were Cave Clan members –  
but various postings on caving websites

Re: [Texascavers] the Lidar project

[Don Cooper]

Ok - and now I will attempt to post the TV station and schedule information:
(It got bounced earlier 'cause there was so much embedded data in all
that 'useless' HTML crap...)
--

Anyway, if you're interested, the video will be shown between February
10 -17, 2008.  Here is the info from the web page and viewing times
for the week.



Geary Schindel and Allan Cobb

Project Managers



Mapping Devil's Sinkhole — The Devil's Sinkhole near Rocksprings is a
cavernous wonder. Visitors to the sinkhole can only peer into the
abyss from a platform near the edge. Thanks to a crew of geologists
and photographers, a 3D virtual map of the cave is in the works, one
that will give visitors a unique view of this geologic oddity

Amarillo, KACV-TV, Channel 2: October–March, Saturday 6 p.m.

Austin, KLRU-TV, Channel 18: Friday 5:30 a.m.; Sunday, 9 a.m. KLRU2,
Cable 20: Tuesday, 11 p.m.

Bryan-College Station, KAMU-TV, Channel 15: Sunday, 5 p.m. & 10:30 p.m.

Corpus Christi, KEDT-TV, Channel 16: Sunday, 12 p.m.

Dallas-Fort Worth, KERA-TV, Channel 13: October–March, Sunday, 6:30
p.m. Also serving Abilene, Denton, Longview, Marshall, San Angelo,
Texarkana, Tyler, Wichita Falls and Sherman.

El Paso, KCOS-TV, Channel 13: Saturday, 4:30 p.m.

Harlingen, KMBH-TV, Channel 60: Sunday, 5 p.m. Also serving McAllen,
Mission and Brownsville.

Houston, KUHT-TV, Channel 8: Saturday, 3 p.m. Also serving Beaumont,
Port Arthur, Galveston, Texas City and Victoria.

Killeen, KNCT-TV, Channel 46: Sunday, 5 p.m. Also serving Temple.

Lubbock, KTXT-TV, Channel 5: Saturday, 10 a.m.

Odessa-Midland, KPBT-TV, Channel 36: Saturday, 4:30 p.m.

San Antonio and Laredo, KLRN-TV, Channel 9: Sunday, 1 p.m.

Waco, KWBU-TV, Channel 34: Saturday, 3 p.m.

Portales, New Mexico, KENW-TV, Channel 3: Sunday, 2:30 p.m.

The New York Network, NYN, Thursday 8:30 p.m.; Saturday 2:30 p.m.
Serving the Albany area.

On Jan 21, 2008 11:25 AM, David Locklear  wrote:
> According to the TPWD web-site,
>
> there is a program in February to talk about the recent
> progress of the Lidar project at Devil's Sinkhole.
>
> The note is very vague and doesn't say anything else.
>
> David Locklear
>

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Re: [Texascavers] the Lidar project

[Don Cooper]

By request of Geary:

*This is to give folks a heads up that Texas Parks and Wildlife Television
did a short program on the Texas Cave Management Association's LIDAR project
at the Devils Sinkhole.  The project is still going on and is scheduled for
completion in May of this year.  The work has been a partnership between the
**Texas** **Parks** and Wildlife Department, the Texas Bureau of Economic
Geology, and the Texas Cave Management Association.  Recently, Real Earth
Models LLC has joined the project and will be shooting some additional LIDAR
of the lake rooms and the guano slope.  They will also be taking the photos
shot by Kevin McGowin Photography and draping them onto the computer point
cloud.  When the project is completed, you will be able to view an
interactive 3D model of the cave that can be used for public education at
the **Devils** **Sinkhole** **Visitors** **Center**.  The model can also be
used by scientists to calculate the area and volume of the cave, measure the
area of bats, etc.  We will also be able to tie a data base to the model
which can be used to add additional educational information to the
presentation.  The model can be shown in the Devils Sinkhole Visitor's
Center but can also be interactive to allow the public to run the model.  If
everything works out, they will be able to fly like superman around the
cave.*

* *

*So, the **Texas** **Parks** and Wildlife Television program will have a
short segment on what we're trying to do with interviews of Jerry Bellian
with TBEG.  (I think that I (gms) have a credit in the video as either best
boy or key grip – not sure what they are but they sound interesting).*

* *

*Anyway, if you're interested, the video will be shown between February 10
-17, 2008.  Here is the info from the web page and viewing times for the
week*.



Geary Schindel and Allan Cobb

Project Managers

RE: [Texascavers] the Lidar project

[Geary Schindel]

Who said I wasn't a biker.  I used to have a Honda 350 in collage until
I decided to sell it to buy a wet suit and I was afraid I was going to
end up a liver donor.

 

Remember, never ride any faster than you're willing to jump off.

 

Geary

 

-Original Message-
From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:58 AM
To: Don Cooper; David Locklear
Cc: Texas Cavers
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] the Lidar project

 

PS

Were all of you on bikes? I didn't picture Geary as a rider.

Fritz

 



From: Don Cooper [mailto:wavyca...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:38 AM
To: David Locklear
Cc: Texas Cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] the Lidar project

 

I'll attempt to redistribute a newspaper article picked up by Geary S.
on the way back from Pumpkin/Deep this past weekend.  I'll also try to
see if I can get it on the screen at the next grotto meeting.

 

It was strangely serendipitous - Geary, Rob Bisset, and Jon Cradit (my
ride - David Crusoe w/us) had stopped at the three sisters 'biker stop'
near Rock Springs to get a coke and leg-stretch - right there at the
counter was a local paper with an article about the LIDAR project at
Devil's Sinkhole.  The article mentioned Geary as the project 'linchpin'
- uncanny - Geary just happened to be there to see his name mentioned...

 

Life imitates weirdness- 

-WaVy
 

On 1/21/08, David Locklear  wrote: 

According to the TPWD web-site,

there is a program in February to talk about the recent
progress of the Lidar project at Devil's Sinkhole. 

The note is very vague and doesn't say anything else.

David Locklear

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[Texascavers] BMC

[Gill Ediger]

At 12:54 PM 1/22/2008, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:

BMC = Big Mutha Caverns


BMC is the kind of cave that everybody should see but that no one 
should visit.


Part of it is just a big, ugly entrance room at the bottom of a 
nuisance entrance drop. But beyond a tight keyhole busted through 
some sorta normal arm-sized columns begins a world of a great variety 
of unusual and (unfortunately) delicate formation rooms that pretty 
much forego any usable aural description. They are dense and compact 
and just about everywhere. They must be seen to be believed. But, 
again unfortunately, the formations are so profuse that it is 
absolutely impossible to move through the rear portions of the cave 
without breaking something with every step or shuffle--without 
breaking many things no matter how carefully you try. You are 
essentially encapsulated within a fantastic geode that is pressing on 
you and your every move; sometimes just breathing, destroys a little 
bit--or destroys a lot. It's just impossible; human beings were not 
meant to be there. For that reason it has been pretty much declared 
off-limits by those who control access and, at their request, by the 
understanding owner. It is gated and considered closed to general 
visitation. I fully support that practice. It is in the cave's best interest.


Maybe, in the best interest of both cave conservation and caver 
appreciation, someone can volunteer to develop a web page, perhaps a 
non-linked one, showing photos of the cave so Texas cavers can take a 
virtual tour without violating the delicacy of the cave's 
environment. I would hope that we could find a few volunteers to 
contribute representative photos in pursuit of those goals.


--Ediger


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[Texascavers] FW: tpwd tv

[John P Brooks]

- Original Message -
Subject: tpwd tv
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:26:36
From: Don Cash 
To:  

 John, 

     I’ve
produced a segment for the Texas Parks & Wildlife television show on the LiDAR
laser mapping project at the Devil’s Sinkhole State Natural Area. The show
airs on the Texas PBS stations the week of February 10-17, 2008 , and repeats 
August 10-17, 2008 . The segment is
titled “New Wave Cave”. I was hoping to get the word out to cavers
and climbers about this show. Any chance you can help us get the info out. The
show info is on the tv section of our web site   www.tpwd.state.tx.us/tv 

 I’ll be happy to drop you a preview
copy of the show in the mail if you’ll send your mailing address. 

 Any other groups I can promote this to?
Thanks for you interest and help. 

   

 New Wave Cave 

 The Devil’s Sinkhole near Rocksprings is a cavernous wonder.
Visitors to the sinkhole can only peer into the abyss from a platform near the
edge. Thanks to a crew of geologists and photographers, a 3D virtual map of the
cave is in the works, one that will give visitors a unique view of this
geologic oddity. 

   

   

 Don Cash 

 Texas Parks & Wildlife
Television 

 4200 Smith School Road 

 Austin , Texas 78744 

 512-389-4792 

 don.c...@tpwd.state.tx.us 

 www.tpwd.state.tx.us/tv 

   

   



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RE: [ot_caving] health food questions

[Fritz Holt]

It is fortunate that every single living thing will die or we might have
a slight overcrowding problem.

Geezer wisdom?

 

  _  

From: Don Cooper [mailto:wavyca...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:46 AM
To: Bill Bentley
Cc: o...@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [ot_caving] health food questions

 

It is true.

Unfortunately every single living thing has died or will die.

But rather than worrying so much about what you're putting in your mouth
- try putting more stuff under your feet!

Exercise is known to be a far better means of keeping yourself in shape
than the selective ingestion of substances!

-WaVy

 

On 1/21/08, Bill Bentley  wrote: 

New studies confirm:
LIVING WILL KILL YOU!



- Original Message -
From: "David Locklear" < dlocklea...@gmail.com>
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:36 AM
Subject: [ot_caving] health food questions 


> I need some advice from the health food experts out there.
>
> I need to start eating healthier.
>
> Do any of you have any experience with drinking
> Currant Juice?It is $ 4 for 16 ounces at Kroger. 
>
> Does anybody have any personal experiences with some
> of the things that are being put in energy drinks, like:   Taurine,
> or Ginseng, or Ginkgo Bilboa, or guarana, etc?I don't
> drink them, and feel that they have too many unknown 
> side-effects.
>
> Does everybody agree that having a small glass of red wine
> in the evenings is very healthy? Is grape juice just as
> healthy?
>
> What about taking vitamins?  Does it really do any good 
> if you are eating 3 normal meals a day?
>
> I am drinking a whole lot of High Fructose Corn Syrup. I am
> certain I need to stop this.  But it is in so many beverages.
> Any suggestions? 
>
> I need to kick the soft drink habit.  But I haven't had any
success.
> Any suggestions?   My goal is to drink more home-brewed decaffeinated
> tea.
>
> Are fruit jelly's really healthy? 
>
> Any other comments?
>
> David Locklear
>
> -
> Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
>

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RE: [Texascavers] the Lidar project

[Fritz Holt]

PS

Were all of you on bikes? I didn't picture Geary as a rider.

Fritz

 

  _  

From: Don Cooper [mailto:wavyca...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:38 AM
To: David Locklear
Cc: Texas Cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] the Lidar project

 

I'll attempt to redistribute a newspaper article picked up by Geary S.
on the way back from Pumpkin/Deep this past weekend.  I'll also try to
see if I can get it on the screen at the next grotto meeting.

 

It was strangely serendipitous - Geary, Rob Bisset, and Jon Cradit (my
ride - David Crusoe w/us) had stopped at the three sisters 'biker stop'
near Rock Springs to get a coke and leg-stretch - right there at the
counter was a local paper with an article about the LIDAR project at
Devil's Sinkhole.  The article mentioned Geary as the project 'linchpin'
- uncanny - Geary just happened to be there to see his name mentioned...

 

Life imitates weirdness- 

-WaVy
 

On 1/21/08, David Locklear  wrote: 

According to the TPWD web-site,

there is a program in February to talk about the recent
progress of the Lidar project at Devil's Sinkhole. 

The note is very vague and doesn't say anything else.

David Locklear

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For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com 

 

RE: [Texascavers] the Lidar project

[Fritz Holt]

Not much goes on in the Rock Springs area other than ranching and
hunting so anything to do with the Sinkhole or local triflings makes the
news.

Fritz

 

  _  

From: Don Cooper [mailto:wavyca...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:38 AM
To: David Locklear
Cc: Texas Cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] the Lidar project

 

I'll attempt to redistribute a newspaper article picked up by Geary S.
on the way back from Pumpkin/Deep this past weekend.  I'll also try to
see if I can get it on the screen at the next grotto meeting.

 

It was strangely serendipitous - Geary, Rob Bisset, and Jon Cradit (my
ride - David Crusoe w/us) had stopped at the three sisters 'biker stop'
near Rock Springs to get a coke and leg-stretch - right there at the
counter was a local paper with an article about the LIDAR project at
Devil's Sinkhole.  The article mentioned Geary as the project 'linchpin'
- uncanny - Geary just happened to be there to see his name mentioned...

 

Life imitates weirdness- 

-WaVy
 

On 1/21/08, David Locklear  wrote: 

According to the TPWD web-site,

there is a program in February to talk about the recent
progress of the Lidar project at Devil's Sinkhole. 

The note is very vague and doesn't say anything else.

David Locklear

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For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com 

 

RE: [Texascavers] Listserve lunacy:

[mark . alman]

(Drum roll please).
 
 
BMC = Big Mutha Caverns
 
To quote Travis Scott, "Its a pretty cave near Carta Valley that is
pretty much closed to any traffic.  There are a few pictures in the
Caves of Carta Valley, a map, etc.."
 
I can now sleep at night!
 
 
 
Mark
 
 



From: Don Cooper [mailto:wavyca...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:51 AM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP
Cc: John P. Brooks; bmorgan...@aol.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Listserve lunacy:


Ok, enlightened one - spread the word.  Now you got some of the rest of
us wondering too.
I thought it might have been a misspelling of NBC (natural bridge
caverns)..
-WaV

 
On 1/22/08, mark.al...@l-3com.com  wrote: 

 
Thanks to all who have responded (Travis and Fritz).
 
I am now "enlightened"!
 
 
Mark
 



From: Alman, Mark @ IRP 
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:27 AM
To: 'Don Cooper'; John P. Brooks
Cc: bmorgan...@aol.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Listserve lunacy: 

 

 
 For the life of me, I can't figure out what "BMC" is.
 
Can someone enlighten me?
 
 
A curious Mark
 


 
On 1/19/08, John P. Brooks  wrote: 


 
"I've done some caving in Texas but was not much
impressed by the caves. "

I doubt there is a cave anywhere in the US or
internationally that can rival BMC or Caverns of Sonora...except maybe
the "L" cave in New Mexicoand not many anywhere much better than
Midnight Cave. 

Re: [Texascavers] Listserve lunacy:

[Don Cooper]

Ok, enlightened one - spread the word.  Now you got some of the rest of us
wondering too.
I thought it might have been a misspelling of NBC (natural bridge caverns)..
-WaV


On 1/22/08, mark.al...@l-3com.com  wrote:
>
>
> Thanks to all who have responded (Travis and Fritz).
>
> I am now "enlightened"!
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>  --
> *From:* Alman, Mark @ IRP
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:27 AM
> *To:* 'Don Cooper'; John P. Brooks
> *Cc:* bmorgan...@aol.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
> *Subject:* RE: [Texascavers] Listserve lunacy:
>
>
>
>  For the life of me, I can't figure out what "BMC" is.
>
> Can someone enlighten me?
>
>
> A curious Mark
>
>
>
>
> On 1/19/08, John P. Brooks  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > "I've done some caving in Texas but was not much impressed by the caves.
> > "
> >
> > I doubt there is a cave anywhere in the US or internationally that can
> > rival BMC or Caverns of Sonora...except maybe the "L" cave in New
> > Mexicoand not many anywhere much better than Midnight Cave.
> >
> >
>

[ot_caving] BMC

[David Locklear]

There are no caves to speak of in Arizona
especially on land owned
by the Black Mountain Conservancy ( BMC ).

http://www.sonorannews.com/archives/2005/2005-06/050608/imagesedition/other-1.jpg

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RE: [Texascavers] Listserve lunacy:

[mark . alman]

 
Thanks to all who have responded (Travis and Fritz).
 
I am now "enlightened"!
 
 
Mark
 



From: Alman, Mark @ IRP 
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:27 AM
To: 'Don Cooper'; John P. Brooks
Cc: bmorgan...@aol.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Listserve lunacy:


 
 For the life of me, I can't figure out what "BMC" is.
 
Can someone enlighten me?
 
 
A curious Mark
 


 
On 1/19/08, John P. Brooks  wrote: 


 
"I've done some caving in Texas but was not much
impressed by the caves. "

I doubt there is a cave anywhere in the US or
internationally that can rival BMC or Caverns of Sonora...except maybe
the "L" cave in New Mexicoand not many anywhere much better than
Midnight Cave. 

Re: [ot_caving] health food questions

[Don Cooper]

It is true.
Unfortunately every single living thing has died or will die.
But rather than worrying so much about what you're putting in your mouth -
try putting more stuff under your feet!
Exercise is known to be a far better means of keeping yourself in shape than
the selective ingestion of substances!
-WaVy


On 1/21/08, Bill Bentley  wrote:
>
> New studies confirm:
> LIVING WILL KILL YOU!
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "David Locklear" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 9:36 AM
> Subject: [ot_caving] health food questions
>
>
> > I need some advice from the health food experts out there.
> >
> > I need to start eating healthier.
> >
> > Do any of you have any experience with drinking
> > Currant Juice?It is $ 4 for 16 ounces at Kroger.
> >
> > Does anybody have any personal experiences with some
> > of the things that are being put in energy drinks, like:   Taurine,
> > or Ginseng, or Ginkgo Bilboa, or guarana, etc?I don't
> > drink them, and feel that they have too many unknown
> > side-effects.
> >
> > Does everybody agree that having a small glass of red wine
> > in the evenings is very healthy? Is grape juice just as
> > healthy?
> >
> > What about taking vitamins?  Does it really do any good
> > if you are eating 3 normal meals a day?
> >
> > I am drinking a whole lot of High Fructose Corn Syrup. I am
> > certain I need to stop this.  But it is in so many beverages.
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > I need to kick the soft drink habit.  But I haven't had any success.
> > Any suggestions?   My goal is to drink more home-brewed decaffeinated
> > tea.
> >
> > Are fruit jelly's really healthy?
> >
> > Any other comments?
> >
> > David Locklear
> >
> > -
> > Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> > For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
> >
>
> -
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> For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
>
>

Re: [ot_caving] Fun things to do when your bored

[Don Cooper]

DON'T do this if you're in a quiet environment and the computer in the
equation has speakers
-WaV


On 1/21/08, Bill Bentley  wrote:
>
> http://www.caver.net/reboot.html
>
> Hey are you bored?
> Want to create some havock?
> Piss off your geek friends by rebooting the interenet...
>
>
>
>
>
> -
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> For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
>
>

Re: [Texascavers] the Lidar project

[Don Cooper]

I'll attempt to redistribute a newspaper article picked up by Geary S. on
the way back from Pumpkin/Deep this past weekend.  I'll also try to see if I
can get it on the screen at the next grotto meeting.

It was strangely serendipitous - Geary, Rob Bisset, and Jon Cradit (my ride
- David Crusoe w/us) had stopped at the three sisters 'biker stop' near Rock
Springs to get a coke and leg-stretch - right there at the counter was a
local paper with an article about the LIDAR project at Devil's Sinkhole.
The article mentioned Geary as the project 'linchpin' - uncanny - Geary just
happened to be there to see his name mentioned...

Life imitates weirdness-
-WaVy

On 1/21/08, David Locklear  wrote:
>
> According to the TPWD web-site,
>
> there is a program in February to talk about the recent
> progress of the Lidar project at Devil's Sinkhole.
>
> The note is very vague and doesn't say anything else.
>
> David Locklear
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>

RE: [Texascavers] Listserve lunacy:

[mark . alman]

 
 For the life of me, I can't figure out what "BMC" is.
 
Can someone enlighten me?
 
 
A curious Mark
 
 

 
On 1/19/08, John P. Brooks  wrote: 


 
"I've done some caving in Texas but was not much
impressed by the caves. "

I doubt there is a cave anywhere in the US or
internationally that can rival BMC or Caverns of Sonora...except maybe
the "L" cave in New Mexicoand not many anywhere much better than
Midnight Cave. 

Re: [Texascavers] Listserve lunacy:

[Don Cooper]

Well... that means there's more caves for you & me... |:-)
Lookatid thisaway - if you don't like Texas caves, you sure don't have to
use 'em.
As it is, there are caves that havent been found yet and those that have
been discovered have not all been surveyed.
I just got to see a couple this past weekend and I'm, I guess you might say,
"hooked" once over.
-WaV


On 1/19/08, John P. Brooks  wrote:
>
>
>
> "I've done some caving in Texas but was not much impressed by the caves. "
>
> I doubt there is a cave anywhere in the US or internationally that can
> rival BMC or Caverns of Sonora...except maybe the "L" cave in New
> Mexicoand not many anywhere much better than Midnight Cave.
>
>