[Texascavers] Environmentalists blast changes to Endangered Species rules - CNN.com

[Joe Ranzau]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/12/12/endangered.species/index.html


Joe

j...@oztotl.com

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[Texascavers] While Detroit Slept - A Better Place Arose

[Nancy Weaver]

this may interest the many who think about 'mobility miles'

Nancy




December 10, 2008
Op-Ed Columnist
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/10/opinion/10friedman.html?hp

While Detroit Slept

By 
THOMAS 
L. FRIEDMAN


As I think about our bailing out Detroit, I can’t 
help but reflect on what, in my view, is the most 
important rule of business in today’s integrated 
and digitized global market, where knowledge and 
innovation tools are so widely distributed. It’s 
this: Whatever can be done, will be done. The 
only question is will it be done by you or to 
you. Just don’t think it won’t be done. If you 
have an idea in Detroit or Tennessee, promise me 
that you’ll pursue it, because someone in Denmark 
or Tel Aviv will do so a second later.


Why do I bring this up? Because someone in the 
mobility business in Denmark and Tel Aviv is 
already developing a real-world alternative to 
Detroit’s business model. I don’t know if this 
alternative to gasoline-powered cars will work, 
but I do know that it can be done — and Detroit 
isn’t doing it. And therefore it will be done, 
and eventually, I bet, it will be done profitably.


And when it is, our bailout of Detroit will be 
remembered as the equivalent of pouring billions 
of dollars of taxpayer money into the 
mail-order-catalogue business on the eve of the 
birth of eBay. It will be remembered as pouring 
billions of dollars into the CD music business on 
the eve of the birth of the iPod and iTunes. It 
will be remembered as pouring billions of dollars 
into a book-store chain on the eve of the birth 
of Amazon.com and the Kindle. It will be 
remembered as pouring billions of dollars into 
improving typewriters on the eve of the birth of 
the PC and the Internet.


What business model am I talking about? It is 
Shai Agassi’s electric car network company, 
called Better Place. Just last week, the company, 
based in Palo Alto, Calif., announced a 
partnership with the state of Hawaii to road test 
its business plan there after already inking 
similar deals with Israel, Australia, the San 
Francisco Bay area and, yes, Denmark.


The Better Place electric car charging system 
involves generating electrons from as much 
renewable energy — such as wind and solar — as 
possible and then feeding those clean electrons 
into a national electric car charging 
infrastructure. This consists of electricity 
charging spots with plug-in outlets — the first 
pilots were opened in Israel this week — plus 
battery-exchange stations all over the respective 
country. The whole system is then coordinated by 
a service control center that integrates and does 
the billing.


Under the Better Place model, consumers can 
either buy or lease an electric car from the 
French automaker Renault or Japanese companies 
like Nissan (General Motors snubbed Agassi) and 
then buy miles on their electric car batteries 
from Better Place the way you now buy an Apple 
cellphone and the minutes from AT&T. That way 
Better Place, or any car company that partners 
with it, benefits from each mile you drive. G.M. 
sells cars. Better Place is selling mobility 
miles.


The first Renault and Nissan electric cars are 
scheduled to hit Denmark and Israel in 2011, when 
the whole system should be up and running. On 
Tuesday, Japan’s Ministry of Environment invited 
Better Place to join the first government-led 
electric car project along with Honda, Mitsubishi 
and Subaru. Better Place was the only foreign 
company invited to participate, working with 
Japan’s leading auto companies, to build a 
battery swap station for electric cars in 
Yokohama, the Detroit of Japan.


What I find exciting about Better Place is that 
it is building a car company off the new 
industrial platform of the 21st century, not the 
one from the 20th — the exact same way that Steve 
Jobs did to overturn the music business. What did 
Apple understand first? One, that today’s 
technology platform would allow anyone with a 
computer to record music. Two, that the Internet 
and MP3 players would allow anyone to transfer 
music in digital form to anyone else. You 
wouldn’t need CDs or record companies anymore. 
Apple simply took all those innovations and 
integrated them into a single music-generating, 
purchasing and listening system that completely 
disrupted the music business.


What Agassi, the founder of Better Place, is 
saying is that there is a new way to generate 
mobility, not just music, using the same 
platform. It just takes the right kind of auto 
battery — the iPod in this story — and the right 
kind of national plug-in network — the iTunes 
store — to make the business model work for 
electric cars at six cents a mile. The average 
American is paying today around 12 cents a mile 
for gasoline transportation, which also adds to 
global warming a

[ot_caving] FW: EASY EDDIE AND BUTCH O'HARE

[Fritz Holt]

You will enjoy reading this, I did.
Fritz


From: Jenny Holt [mailto:jhol...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 2:21 AM
To: Fritz Holt
Subject: FW: EASY EDDIE AND BUTCH O'HARE


I found this most interesting after getting through it all.  Check it out, I 
think you'll like it!

Both true,
and worth reading!!!


FIRST STORY

Many years ago, Al Capone virtually owned Chicago.
Capone wasn't famous for anything heroic.  He was notorious for enmeshing the 
windy city in everything from bootlegged booze and prostitution, to murder.

Capone had a lawyer nicknamed 'Easy Eddie.'
He was Capone's lawyer for a good reason.  Eddie was very good!  In fact, 
Eddie's skill at legal maneuvering kept 'Big Al' out of jail for a long time.

To show his appreciation, Capone paid Easy Eddie very well.  Not only was the 
money big, but Eddie got special dividends as well.  For instance, he and his 
family occupied a fenced-in mansion with live-in help and all of the 
conveniences of the day.  The estate was so large that it filled an entire 
downtown Chicago city block.

Eddie lived the high life of the Chicago mob, and gave little consideration to 
the atrocities that went on around him.

Eddie did have one soft spot, however. He had a son that he loved dearly.  
Eddie saw to it that his young son had clothes,
cars, and a good education.  Nothing was withheld.  Price was no object.

And, despite his involvement with organized crime, Eddie even tried to teach 
his son right from wrong.  Eddie wanted his son to be a better man than he was.

Yet, with all his wealth and influence, there were two things he couldn't give 
his son; he couldn't pass on a good name or a good example.

One day, Easy Eddie reached a difficult decision.  Easy Eddie wanted to rectify 
wrongs he had done.

He decided he would go to the authorities and tell the truth about Al 
'Scarface' Capone, clean up his tarnished name, and offer his son some 
semblance of integrity.  To do this, he would have to testify against The Mob, 
and he knew that the cost would be great.  So, he testified.

Within the year, Easy Eddie's life ended in a blaze of gunfire on a lonely 
Chicago Street.  But, in his eyes, he had given
his son the greatest gift he had to offer, at the greatest price he could ever 
pay.  Police removed from his pockets a rosary, a crucifix, a religious 
medallion, and a poem clipped from a magazine.

The poem read:
"The clock of life is wound but once, and no man has the power to tell just 
when the hands will stop, at late or early
hour.  Now is the only time you own.  Live, love, toil with a will.  Place no 
faith in time.  For the clock may soon be still."


SECOND STORY

World War II produced many heroes. One such man was Lieutenant Commander Butch 
O'Hare.

He was a fighter pilot, assigned to the aircraft carrier Lexington, in the 
South Pacific.

One day his entire squadron was sent on a mission.  After he was airborne, he 
looked at his fuel gauge and realized that someone had forgotten to top off his 
fuel tank.

He would not have enough fuel to complete his mission and get back to his ship, 
so his flight leader told him to return to the carrier.  Reluctantly, he
dropped out of formation and headed back to the fleet.

As he was returning to the mother ship, he saw something that turned his blood 
cold; a squadron of Japanese aircraft was speeding its way toward the American 
fleet.

The American fighters were gone on a sortie, and the fleet was all but 
defenseless.  He couldn't reach his squadron and bring them back in time to 
save the fleet.  Nor could he warn the fleet of the approaching danger.
There was only one thing to do.  He must somehow divert them from the fleet.

Laying aside all thoughts of personal safety, he dove into the formation of 
Japanese planes.  Wing-mounted 50 caliber machine guns blazed as he charged in, 
attacking one surprised enemy plane and then another.  Butch wove in and out of 
the now broken formation and fired at as many planes as possible until all his 
ammunition was
finally spent.

Undaunted, he continued the assault.  He dove at the planes, trying to clip a 
wing or tail in hopes of damaging as many enemy planes as possible, rendering 
them unfit to fly.

Finally, the exasperated Japanese squadron retreated in another direction.
Deeply relieved, Butch O'Hare and his tattered fighter limped back to the 
carrier.

Upon arrival, he reported in and related the event surrounding his return.  The 
film from the gun-camera mounted on his plane told the tale.  It showed the 
extent of Butch's daring attempt to protect his fleet.  He had, in fact, 
destroyed five enemy aircraft.

This took place on February 20, 1942. And, for that action, Butch became the 
Navy's first Ace of W.W.II, and the first Naval Aviator to win the 
Congressional Medal of Honor.

A year later Butch was killed in aerial combat at the age of 29.
His home town would not allow the memory of this WWII her

Re: [Texascavers] Cave accident (long and involved diatribe)

[Ted Samsel]

Shades of Joe Hill..


“Don't waste any time mourning - organize!”

T.

-Original Message-
>From: Gill Ediger 
>Sent: Dec 11, 2008 9:51 PM
>To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>Subject: [Texascavers] Cave accident (long and involved diatribe)
>
>At 06:02 PM 12/11/2008, Matt Turner wrote:
>>Seriously though do we know this person? It says they where looking 
>>for caves so I would think so.
>
>There's always the chance, Matt, that some caver somewhere knows him. 
>But there is sometimes a concept that all cavers know each other. 
>They think that about black people and Asians and Baptists and Boy 
>Scouts and a lot of other groups--that they all know each other. It 
>just ain't true.
>
>There are a whole lot of people out there who can ligitimately be 
>called cavers whom most of us "organized cavers" have never heard of 
>and will never come across. There are several catagories of them and 
>I'm not even gonna try to get started on them all, but will give you 
>a couple of examples.
>
>Even the concept of "organized cavers" is a bit nebulous. They are 
>generally the ones that can be identified as belonging to or 
>participating in the activities of some sort of caving club--local 
>Grottos, state or regional organizations such as the TSA, or the NSS. 
>Projects (CBSP, AMCS, PEP) and surveys (TSS) and conservation groups 
>like the TCC or TCMA also count. And then there are the friends and 
>camp followers of the active cavers in that group. They may never 
>enter a cave but they are an important part of our "organized caver" 
>social family. In most cases they go caving enough to consider 
>themselves cavers and we generally recognize them as such. And they 
>know enough to call a rescue should one be needed.
>
>Now then, there is another nebulous group that I call "county 
>cavers". They consist mainly of local (read small town, Hill Country 
>kids--or older kids) who like caving but don't give a damn (for any 
>of various reasons) for organized cavers. It might be the time and 
>distance required to go to meetings; it might be that they have their 
>own tight little group and don't need or care for outsiders; it might 
>be they've never heard or made lasting contacts with organized 
>cavers; it might also be that they've had a bad experience or two 
>with uppity organized cavers and just don't care to associate with them.
>
>In many cases these county cavers are pretty much or completely safe 
>and knowledgable cavers and many know at least the basics of vertical 
>work. Those have the training, equipment and experience to be 
>considered competent vertical cavers. They have read some caving 
>books in the local library, looked up caving websites, or know some 
>organized cavers who've caved with them and taught them vertical 
>techniques. Admittedly, those may not be in the majority, but they do 
>exist and can be found caving locally on most any weekend in Central 
>Texas. But as you might expect, a good number--surely way more than 
>half--are only marginally competent and under-equipped for a lot of 
>the caving they do. Still, they do it reasonably safely. Most of 
>these cavers go about their business without every being made known 
>to us. And, certainly, most are never brought into the sphere of 
>organized caving. There's a pretty good chance that the guy hurt in 
>the cave near New Braunfels would fall somewhere within this catagory 
>of cavers--as well as others.
>
>There is another group that are in the "pot hunter" catagory of 
>cavers. They know very little about caving or the standard techniques 
>or equipment and may have never met a caver. They have a different 
>agenda. They are not caving for caving's sake; they are caving as a 
>means to some primary end. While a few are looking for 
>artifacts--pots, points, minerals, bugs, etc--not all of them are. 
>Still, they have some underlying interest that requires they go into 
>caves. With some reservations I am required to put non-caving 
>scientists--archeologist, biologists, geologists, and others of that 
>sort into this catagory but must point out that it should not be 
>considered as a disparging placement. There are the "free-lance" 
>variety of pot hunters who rob graves and whose actions should be 
>discouraged and then there are the "accredited" variety of pot 
>hunters who have permits and hire cavers to dig up the cave floor and 
>rob the graves legally in the name of science. Still, they are not 
>really cavers but more on the order of occasional users. What happens 
>in the rest of the cave is not their concern.
>
>Somewhere in the line up we must consider the emergency response 
>people, some of  whom have little or no interest caving as a hobby 
>(thought some do) but have had extensive training in caving and 
>vertical equipment and techniques (some of it, thought originally 
>invented by and for caving, is more advanced than most cavers 
>realize). Some of these folks turn out to be damned fine cavers and 
>spend some

Re: [Texascavers] Cave accident (long and involved diatribe)

[CaverArch]

Gill,

Your excellent response to the comment by Matt included a perfect description 
(copied below) of how a friend and I began caving in Panama City, Florida (250 
miles from the nearest NSS Grotto in existence then) in 1967.  Clark Whitehorn 
and I knew there were caves about 50 miles north of town thanks to the 
existence of Florida Caverns State Park in Marianna.  But we were just 
exploring the countryside in Jackson County (thanks to newly-minted drivers' 
licenses and access to Clark's mother's station wagon) when we actually 
stumbled onto a small cave in a long-abandoned limestone quarry.  We had one 
flashlight with us, and had the predictable idiot result (light failure) when 
we were just out of the twilight zone.  Fortunately, the cave was a single 
crawl with no side passages, so we made our way out with no problem.  

But the incident did put the fear of [Oztotl?] in us, and we scampered off to 
the Public Library, just as you describe, to research safe and responsible 
caving techniques.  We had soon read several books, mail-ordered Justrite 
carbide lamps from an outfitter, acquired hard hats, etc.  We caved cautiously 
in the Park (where many undeveloped caves were then open) and on private land. 

We encountered 'real' cavers in one of the park caves, and got the predictable 
(and justified) lecture on cave conservation, and how they would kick our 
teenaged butts if we damaged anything.  But we had already picked up on that 
through our readings and through our general environmentally positive attitude 
engendered by Boy Scouts and herptile-friendly Clark's readings of Archie Carr 
and other pioneer ecologist and environmentalists.  It may have been through 
this group or independent research that we found out about the Florida 
Speleological Society, the Grotto at the University of Florida that had already 
existed for 15 years or so at that time.

We contacted members, and were invited to join them on a trip to the very large 
and generally wonderful Climax Cave in southwestern Georgia.  We brought along 
NSS applications to that we could get endorsement signatures and apply for 
membership.  We were blown away by the trip (our first BIG cave), but the guy 
who was an NSS member and offered to sign our application had a car wreck (not 
serious) on the way up, and we didn't get signatures as a consequence.  

I went on to the University of Florida in the Fall of 1968, and immediately 
joined the Florida Speleological Society.  But, like many members of student 
grottos back then, I just read the club library's NSS News, and didn't become 
and NSS member until I had to (in 1970) to hold a grotto office.  I'm sure my 
NSS number would be a thousand or so lower if the Climax application had come 
off.  

Anyway, you did a great job of describing caving on the fringes of the 
'organized' world or beyond, Gill.

Roger Moore

In a message dated 12/11/08 20:52:00 Central Standard Time, 
gi...@worldnet.att.net writes:
In many cases these county cavers are pretty much or completely safe 
and knowledgable cavers and many know at least the basics of vertical 
work. Those have the training, equipment and experience to be 
considered competent vertical cavers. They have read some caving 
books in the local library, looked up caving websites, or know some 
organized cavers who've caved with them and taught them vertical 
techniques. 

texascavers Digest 12 Dec 2008 16:32:13 -0000 Issue 667

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 12 Dec 2008 16:32:13 - Issue 667

Topics (messages 9660 through 9674):

Re: Cave accident in New Braunfels
9660 by: George Veni

TV Show tonight
9661 by: Geary Schindel

Re: OT - price of gas
9662 by: Don Cooper
9668 by: Simon Newton
9669 by: Lyndon Tiu
9670 by: Lyndon Tiu

Harry Walker - part 2
9663 by: David
9664 by: Preston Forsythe

Cave accident (long and involved diatribe)
9665 by: Gill Ediger
9667 by: Preston Forsythe
9673 by: Ted Samsel
9674 by: CaverArch

Harry Walker--p 2, more
9666 by: Gill Ediger

Environmentalists blast changes to Endangered Species rules - CNN.com
9671 by: Joe Ranzau

While Detroit Slept - A Better Place Arose
9672 by: Nancy Weaver

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


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--
--- Begin Message ---
The description of the cave is not very good in the report, and is probably
exaggerated and wrong in some parts due to the usual translation issues from
non-cavers to the media. Little Gem and Little Gem Annex have long been
known in that area, but don't have entrances that would require a tripod to
haul someone out. The most likely cave, at least of those listed in the TSS
files, is Pokey's Pit. It has an 7-m deep entrance pit. If someone fell down
it, they would slide down about 3-m into a crawl that may be the crevice
mentioned in the news article.

George

-Original Message-
From: Jon Cradit [mailto:jcra...@edwardsaquifer.org] 
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 11:02 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Cave accident in New Braunfels

http://herald-zeitung.com/story.lasso?ewcd=40742c686e3b489b&-session=Her
aldZeitung:4830E2641d9141C487tNU2444D85


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the DSC channel on cable, there is a program titled How Stuff Works
which has a segment on Water.   It airs at 7PM central time.  It says it
has some information on caves.  I was told that George and I were on TV
other night so this might be the same show.  If they don't give our
names, you can tell George and I apart as I'm the good looking one.

 

Geary Schindel

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My thinking is that part of the reason it's so low now is because so many
financial hedge funds were betting that it would stay high.  Part of the
reason it's cheap now is because it was "paid forward" when it was so
unreasonably high.  When we were all getting "ripped off" where did all that
money go?  It's now paying for unreasonably cheap gasoline.  But has anyone
else noticed that diesel is a WHOLE lot more *now* than it was the
*last*time gasoline was $1.50 a gallon?
At that point, diesel was only $1.60 to $1.70.  Something stinks here!

And speaking of OIL - this really is a burr in my craw... I had to pay $14
for 5 quarts of decent motor oil at Wally Whirled the other day.  Man!  That
used to be THE cheapest place for motor oil.  Auto zone is just about the
same price.   WHAT IS *THAT *about???

-WaV

On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 4:46 PM, Fritz Holt wrote:

>  I was generally referring to imported oil prices and profit margins as
> that is where most of it comes from.
>
> Fritz
>
>
>  --
>
> *From:* Brian Riordan [mailto:riordan.br...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 11, 2008 3:43 PM
> *To:* Fritz Holt
> *Cc:* David; Texascavers Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] OT - price of gas
>
>
>
> It all depends.  A classic Texas gusher takes nothing to get a lot.
> Deepwater fields cost a certain amount to initiate, produce and transport,
> if the current price doesn't offset that, they lose, while the Texas gusher
> may still make money.  Canadian Oil Sands require even more to upgrade the
> oil (besides, who the hell wants to work in Northern Alberta, just take a
> look at housing prices!
> http://www.colinhartigan.com/view_listing.php?listing=mls&id=8320001070)-
> it takes so much energy to produce the crude oil here, that without a high
> oil price, it doesn't make sense to dig it up.  If a company initiates a
> project because it became economical at 80 bucks a barrel, they may lose
> money on that field for every day of production under 80 bucks/barrel, while
> the Texas gusher STILL makes money.  To oversimplify...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 3:04 PM, Fritz Holt 
> wrote:
>
> Oil companies are complaining because oil has dropped from $140. a barrel
> to below $50. Some years back when oil was at or below $20. they said if
> only the price could get b

[ot_caving] robots, androids, etc.

[David]

It appears very likely that mankind is going to have human-like robots someday.

There was a story this week about a guy working on a robot girlfriend:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,465844,00.html

My question is how much more realistic would the robot have to get, before some
pervert would want to start humping it.

I know there are already people like that out there, because I have
seen video clips
of woman using a machine that has artificially male characteristics.

And I have seen ( but never used ) gadgets that simulate the female
organ, and this
appears to be a million dollar industry.

So lets say, just for the heck of it, that he makes this robot woman
capable of doing
the Monica Lewinsky. How many guys would admit they gave it a whirl?


My theory is that men will first pay by the minute to rent these
robots in a private booth,
meaning a sexual robot could screw up to 100 men per day, or 700 per
week or 35,000
per year, presuming they only screw one man at a time and not in some
kind of orgy
fashion. So if the robot cost 1 million, and each guy pays $ 100,
then it would pay
for itself in 3 years or less, presuming the owner of the club doesn't
pay taxes.I am
thinking it will be like a taxi, in that other riders split the cost
of the ride.

For me, I think the robot would have to look nearly identical to
Paulina Porizkova

http://www.realitywanted.net/wp-content/2007/11/si_porizkova.jpg

before I would pay $ 100.The robot would have to look like a
female before I would
even consider it.Imagine though, if the fantasy experience
came with a tropical
island hut resembling Giligan's Island and Mary Ann or Ginger were willing to do
anything you asked?  I would sell the equity in my house.

I am getting goosebumps just thinking about it.   Unfortunately, I
won't live long
enough to see that.

Imagine if the robot gets daily use for a hundred years. A person
could be screwing
the same robot that their grandfather sowed his oats on.

David

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RE: [ot_caving] Bad TV On the Internet Tonight - or whenever you want

[Louise Power]

You can also see probably way more than you wanted to know about both the movie 
and the TV series by looking on www.imdb.com

List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:35:59 -0600From: wavycaver@gmail.comTo: 
ot@texascavers.comSubject: [ot_caving] Bad TV On the Internet Tonight - or 
whenever you wantAh, trailer parks.  As I'm writing this, on "My Name is Earl" 
the set is a trailer park.But that's not what I'm writing about.While trying to 
fall asleep (WAY before my usual bedtime) in Houston a while back at my 
brother's house over thanksgiving,channel-surfing - I snagged on a movie called 
"The Trailer Park Boys - The Movie".Wondering, the other day, who these people 
are and what the series the movie was based on - I stumbled across something 
perhaps uniquely Canadian and irritatingly entertaining.   At least for me 
anyway.  I guess I just have a long, unquenchable fascination for Canadian 
subculture.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trailer_park_boysSo if you're bored, 
love "mocumentaries", have high speed internet and enjoy the irreverent, 
irrelevant and absurd, CHECK OUT the goings on in the fictional Nova Scotia 
Sunnyvale Trailer Park at 
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1344122195717222527&hl=en-WaV

[ot_caving] a controversial subject

[David]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2031173.ece#OTC-RSS

What do you think?

Is this art ?Is this thought provoking?

Is this sacrilegious ?

Is this porno ?

Is she hot or what ?

What if it had been a Muslim woman and an Islamic image ?

Does Freedom of Speech really give Playboy the right ?

I think there should have been a portion of her nipple in the picture,
and I think it should have been more clearer that she was not wearing
panties. You have to really squint and use your imagination to see
anything down there.

But other than that, I don't think the picture bothers me.

Would you buy this issue?

Would God be disappointed in Playboy ? Why does he let Hugh Hefner
live the most incredible life any man on earth has ever lived ?
When historians
a thousand years from now, re-write history. They will say things
like Aristotle,
Copernicus, Heffner, etc. There will be little if any mention of
Washington, Lincoln,
Kennedy, and Queen Elizabeth, etc.

The sad truth is that I have probably never bought a Playboy magazine
in my entire
life, but that was a financial decision instead of a moral one.

David

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RE: [ot_caving] a controversial subject

[Mark . Alman]

It's all about the dinero, David.
 
Plain and simple.
 
Controversy/sex/nudity sells.
 
The more people talk about it or get upset about it, the more they sell.
 
Don't fall for it.
 
 
Mark
 
 



From: David [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com]
Sent: Fri 12/12/2008 11:54 AM
To: o...@texascavers.com
Subject: [ot_caving] a controversial subject



http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2031173.ece#OTC-RSS

What do you think?

Is this art ?Is this thought provoking?

Is this sacrilegious ?

Is this porno ?

Is she hot or what ?

What if it had been a Muslim woman and an Islamic image ?

Does Freedom of Speech really give Playboy the right ?

I think there should have been a portion of her nipple in the picture,
and I think it should have been more clearer that she was not wearing
panties. You have to really squint and use your imagination to see
anything down there.

But other than that, I don't think the picture bothers me.

Would you buy this issue?

Would God be disappointed in Playboy ? Why does he let Hugh Hefner
live the most incredible life any man on earth has ever lived ?
When historians
a thousand years from now, re-write history. They will say things
like Aristotle,
Copernicus, Heffner, etc. There will be little if any mention of
Washington, Lincoln,
Kennedy, and Queen Elizabeth, etc.

The sad truth is that I have probably never bought a Playboy magazine
in my entire
life, but that was a financial decision instead of a moral one.

David

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Re: [ot_caving] a controversial subject

[Scott Nicholson]

I think it's hilarious and brilliant...ok, maybe not brilliant, but creative.  
I'm gonna try and buy a copy of it to have around.  For the articles of 
course

ciao,
 Scott Nicholson, Director
KW Commercial
512-947-2688
Discovery Realty Group
www.DiscoveryAustin.com
www.KWCommercial.com 





From: "mark.al...@l-3com.com" 
To: David ; o...@texascavers.com
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 12:21:51 PM
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] a controversial subject


It's all about the dinero, David.
 
Plain and simple.
 
Controversy/sex/nudity sells.
 
The more people talk about it or get upset about it, the more they sell.
 
Don't fall for it.
 
 
Mark
 



From: David [mailto:dlocklea...@gmail.com]
Sent: Fri 12/12/2008 11:54 AM
To: o...@texascavers.com
Subject: [ot_caving] a controversial subject


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2031173.ece#OTC-RSS

What do you think?

Is this art ?    Is this thought provoking?

Is this sacrilegious ?

Is this porno ?

Is she hot or what ?

What if it had been a Muslim woman and an Islamic image ?

Does Freedom of Speech really give Playboy the right ?

I think there should have been a portion of her nipple in the picture,
and I think it should have been more clearer that she was not wearing
panties. You have to really squint and use your imagination to see
anything down there.

But other than that, I don't think the picture bothers me.

Would you buy this issue?

Would God be disappointed in Playboy ? Why does he let Hugh Hefner
live the most incredible life any man on earth has ever lived ?
When historians
a thousand years from now, re-write history. They will say things
like Aristotle,
Copernicus, Heffner, etc. There will be little if any mention of
Washington, Lincoln,
Kennedy, and Queen Elizabeth, etc.

The sad truth is that I have probably never bought a Playboy magazine
in my entire
life, but that was a financial decision instead of a moral one.

David

-
Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com

[Texascavers] unorganized diatribe

[William H. Russell]

	Ediger has long thought there are large numbers of unknown 
"cavers" that can be brought into organized caving, with a benefit 
both to both groups.  This has not proved to be the case.  For many 
years Ediger preached that we should reach out to the unorganized by 
including them in the TSA weather they knew it or not.  To do this he 
watered down the membership requirements of the TSA to essentially 
anyone who had thought about going into a cave.  The inability of the 
TSA to define their membership, collect dues, and perform other 
essential functions finally made the TSA abandon this idea. 
	Curiosity is a basic human attribute, and across Texas many 
people who hear about a local cave will go out to explore.  They 
aren't cavers, they are just curious.  The vast majority have no 
interest in spending time learning more about caves, joining a 
grotto, or anything else that would make them a caver.  A very few do 
find caves to be of special interest, and thanks to the internet can 
quickly and easily find out about organized caving.  And, organized 
caving should be ready to welcome them.  This is organized caving's 
obligation to the unorganized. 
	To spend money, time and resources to attempt to reach 
everyone who has an even fleeting interest in caves will not benefit 
organized cavers or anyone else.  Most people, even in rural areas, 
are slightly interested in many things.  They go to the movies, but 
do not want to join a film club.  They take pictures, but do not want 
to join a photography club.  To be a caver one should have a special 
interest in caves.  These are the people who will train the new 
generation of cavers and carry on the traditions of caving.  These 
are the people who will keep caving from becoming an "introverted 
little clique." 
	Ediger needs to realize that there is not "a much larger 
number of Texas cavers" that can be organized into productive members 
of the TSA.  If we want to be worthy of the idea of organized caving, 
we need to welcome and encourage the new cavers that come forward.  I 
think this will provide enough challenge to these who actually want 
to "get somewhere."

Bill Russell


--
William Hart Russell
4806 Red River Street
Austin, TX  78751
H: 512-453-4774 (messages)
CELL:  512-940-8336

Re: [Texascavers] unorganized diatribe

[Diana Tomchick]

What Bill states here agrees with the experience of the DFW grotto  
officers over the last few years. As Secretary/Newsletter Editor, I  
send (free of charge) monthly electronic newsletters out to both  
members and anyone else who expresses interest. This includes people  
on CaveTex, visitors to grotto meetings and people who contact me via  
email who express interest in caving and the grotto. We do this in  
hopes of convincing some of these people to continue to be interested  
in caving, going caving with us, attending meetings or caving events,  
etc.


The number of people that we get that actually continue to express any  
interest in any of these activities is extremely small. Not that  
there's anything wrong with that; if a person isn't interested enough  
to actually go on a wild caving trip somewhere, then they probably  
aren't going to want to go to the trouble and expense to obtain the  
gear to become an organized caver. I tend to think of my efforts as  
educational, in some aspect. As Bill said, people are curious, and by  
giving them a free newsletter or two, that seems to satisfy most  
people. No sense in being overly secretive and hiding what it means to  
be a caver. But expecting everyone who expresses some interest in the  
activity to actually want to do it (and do it in an organized way) is  
hopelessly optimistic, whether the activity is caving or mountain  
biking or scrapbooking.


Diana

On Dec 12, 2008, at 1:39 PM, William H. Russell wrote:

Ediger has long thought there are large numbers of unknown  
"cavers" that can be brought into organized caving, with a benefit  
both to both groups.  This has not proved to be the case.  For many  
years Ediger preached that we should reach out to the unorganized by  
including them in the TSA weather they knew it or not.  To do this  
he watered down the membership requirements of the TSA to  
essentially anyone who had thought about going into a cave.  The  
inability of the TSA to define their membership, collect dues, and  
perform other essential functions finally made the TSA abandon this  
idea.
Curiosity is a basic human attribute, and across Texas many  
people who hear about a local cave will go out to explore.  They  
aren't cavers, they are just curious.  The vast majority have no  
interest in spending time learning more about caves, joining a  
grotto, or anything else that would make them a caver.  A very few  
do find caves to be of special interest, and thanks to the internet  
can quickly and easily find out about organized caving.  And,  
organized caving should be ready to welcome them.  This is organized  
caving's obligation to the unorganized.
To spend money, time and resources to attempt to reach everyone who  
has an even fleeting interest in caves will not benefit organized  
cavers or anyone else.  Most people, even in rural areas, are  
slightly interested in many things.  They go to the movies, but do  
not want to join a film club.  They take pictures, but do not want  
to join a photography club.  To be a caver one should have a special  
interest in caves.  These are the people who will train the new  
generation of cavers and carry on the traditions of caving.  These  
are the people who will keep caving from becoming an "introverted  
little clique."
Ediger needs to realize that there is not "a much larger number  
of Texas cavers" that can be organized into productive members of  
the TSA.  If we want to be worthy of the idea of organized caving,  
we need to welcome and encourage the new cavers that come forward.   
I think this will provide enough challenge to these who actually  
want to "get somewhere."

Bill Russell


--
William Hart Russell
4806 Red River Street
Austin, TX  78751
H: 512-453-4774 (messages)
CELL:  512-940-8336


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B   
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.   
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)


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[Texascavers] county cavers

[Mixon Bill]

There's an expression for the problem people have just pointed out  
with Ediger's outreach idea. "You can lead a horse to water but you  
can't make him drink." What fraction of people who show up at one or  
two grotto meetings do we ever see again? And at least the UT Grotto  
is large enough that there should be a clique for anyone really  
interested.


A lot of the "county cavers" are just high-school students out for a  
bit of adventure with their buddies. Next week they'll be floating  
down a river and the week after that trying not to die rock climbing.  
(The frustrating thing to me is that you know the owner's son and his  
buddies can go into that closed cave any time they want to.) Or  
they're a couple of good ol' boys who just thought they'd check out  
that hole on Joe's place, for want of anything better to do that day.  
As long as we do make an effort to provide some training and beginners  
trips for those who track us down, I don't see what more we can do.


I'm sure there are a few real cavers who just aren't joiners, but  
there's not much we can do about it. I know one guy who was a hard- 
core and very active caver and grotto member for thirty years and  
would never join the NSS. Finally he did, but only because he hooked  
up with a woman who insisted on dragging him to NSS conventions.--Mixon

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Re: [Texascavers] county cavers

[Bill Bentley-Webmail]

Might be a good time to explain the benefits of joing the NSS. What is  
in it for me?


Quoting Mixon Bill :


There's an expression for the problem people have just pointed out with
Ediger's outreach idea. 

<

< I know one guy who was a hard-core

and very active caver and grotto member for thirty years and would
never join the NSS. Finally he did, but only because he hooked up with
a woman who insisted on dragging him to NSS conventions.--Mixon
--
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came from, but for long-term use, save:
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AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org




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[ot_caving] Technology

[Bill Bentley]

Every now and then someone come up with something that it just pretty dang 
cool. Or something that just makes you think "Isn't technology wonderful?"

I have both of these items:

http://www.gracedigitalaudio.com/duploads/mini-sites/IR1000B/grace-wireless-internet-radio.html?gclid=COip_6uxvJcCFQUWGgodvTQVSg

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-media-receivers/sling-media-slingbox-solo/4505-6739_7-32625233.html


Bill

[Texascavers] Barton Springs Edwards Aquifer District Declares Critical Stage Drought

[Jules Jenkins]

FYI

Aquifer District Declares Critical Stage Drought for Only the Second Time in 
Twenty-One Years The Barton Springs/Edwards Aquifer Conservation District’s 
Board of Directors declared a Critical Stage Drought for the groundwater 
resources in the District’s jurisdiction, including the heavily used Barton 
Springs segment of the Edwards Aquifer, at its regular board meeting on 
Thursday, December 11.  The declaration will require a 30% mandatory reduction 
in the authorized monthly use from all its permittees, which will in turn 
affect some 60,000 groundwater users, mostly in southern Travis and northern 
Hays County.  This is only the second time in the District’s 21-year history 
that a declaration of this kind has been issued. This year was the fourth 
driest on record.  Austin’s Camp Mabry received around 15 inches of rain, a 
17-inch deficit from average, and the contributing watersheds of the aquifer 
received even less.  In addition, the summer
 of 2008 turned out to be one of the hottest on record, increasing the demand 
for groundwater.  Consequently, on June 23, 2008, the District’s Board of 
Directors declared an Alarm Stage Drought, which required permittees to 
implement steps in their User Drought Contingency Plans to achieve a mandatory 
20% reduction in monthly usage from their authorized levels.  While many exempt 
well owners, permittees, and their customers have made concerted attempts to 
achieve these reductions, water levels in the aquifer have continued to 
decline.  In early December, the ten-day average discharge at Barton Springs 
fell below its critical level of 20 cubic feet per second (cfs)  and the water 
level in the Lovelady Drought Indicator Well fell below its critical level of 
191.8 feet (either of those conditions would have been sufficient for the Board 
to consider a Critical Stage declaration) ..  Unfortunately, meteorological 
forecasts by the National Weather
 Service’s Climate Prediction Center indicate that dry conditions may persist 
through much of 2009.  Existing groundwater users in the District will now have 
to cut back their monthly water use another 10% and heed more stringent 
restrictions.  Their water suppliers (and/or the District) will inform 
end-users as to what obligations they must follow under Critical Stage Drought. 
 Generally, groundwater users will be limited only to water use for essential 
(indoor) demands needed to preserve health and safety with a very minor 
allocation provided for some non-essential (outdoor) water uses such as 
maintaining small lawn areas for fire protection and foundation damage 
prevention. The District’s staff is committed to ensuring that such 
restrictions are as equitable as possible and will be taking steps during 
drought to guarantee that: · New water withdrawals will not be 
authorized by permit during this drought; ·
 The restrictions included in the User Drought Contingency Plans that are part 
of every groundwater use permit will be aggressively enforced; and· 
Rules that prohibit use by end users who are using water in a wasteful fashion 
will be enforced. The District asks all of its constituents to continue their 
water conservation measures and be even better stewards of an increasingly 
scarce resource.  A list of actions to save water in and around the home or 
office and the hydrographs for various monitor wells are available on the 
District’s website at www.bseacd.org. With continued lack of significant 
rainfall and high rates of pumping, water levels could drop to the extent that 
some wells could go dry and flow from Barton Springs could eventually decrease 
to the point where ecological, recreational, and aesthetic uses of Barton 
Springs would be harmed.  The aquifer can no longer afford anything other than 
minimal use, and that may be the
 situation for many, many more months.  
 
 

















  

texascavers Digest 13 Dec 2008 02:30:38 -0000 Issue 668

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 13 Dec 2008 02:30:38 - Issue 668

Topics (messages 9675 through 9682):

unorganized diatribe
9675 by: William H. Russell
9676 by: Diana Tomchick

county cavers
9677 by: Mixon Bill
9678 by: Bill Bentley-Webmail

On the value of outreach
9679 by: Thomas Sitch
9680 by: Bill Bentley-Webmail

Barton Springs Edwards Aquifer District Declares Critical Stage Drought
9681 by: Jules Jenkins

Thomas - UT Grotto Newbie Herder
9682 by: Terri Sprouse

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
	Ediger has long thought there are large numbers of unknown 
"cavers" that can be brought into organized caving, with a benefit 
both to both groups.  This has not proved to be the case.  For many 
years Ediger preached that we should reach out to the unorganized by 
including them in the TSA weather they knew it or not.  To do this he 
watered down the membership requirements of the TSA to essentially 
anyone who had thought about going into a cave.  The inability of the 
TSA to define their membership, collect dues, and perform other 
essential functions finally made the TSA abandon this idea. 
	Curiosity is a basic human attribute, and across Texas many 
people who hear about a local cave will go out to explore.  They 
aren't cavers, they are just curious.  The vast majority have no 
interest in spending time learning more about caves, joining a 
grotto, or anything else that would make them a caver.  A very few do 
find caves to be of special interest, and thanks to the internet can 
quickly and easily find out about organized caving.  And, organized 
caving should be ready to welcome them.  This is organized caving's 
obligation to the unorganized. 
	To spend money, time and resources to attempt to reach 
everyone who has an even fleeting interest in caves will not benefit 
organized cavers or anyone else.  Most people, even in rural areas, 
are slightly interested in many things.  They go to the movies, but 
do not want to join a film club.  They take pictures, but do not want 
to join a photography club.  To be a caver one should have a special 
interest in caves.  These are the people who will train the new 
generation of cavers and carry on the traditions of caving.  These 
are the people who will keep caving from becoming an "introverted 
little clique." 
	Ediger needs to realize that there is not "a much larger 
number of Texas cavers" that can be organized into productive members 
of the TSA.  If we want to be worthy of the idea of organized caving, 
we need to welcome and encourage the new cavers that come forward.  I 
think this will provide enough challenge to these who actually want 
to "get somewhere."

Bill Russell


--
William Hart Russell
4806 Red River Street
Austin, TX  78751
H: 512-453-4774 (messages)
CELL:  512-940-8336--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What Bill states here agrees with the experience of the DFW grotto  
officers over the last few years. As Secretary/Newsletter Editor, I  
send (free of charge) monthly electronic newsletters out to both  
members and anyone else who expresses interest. This includes people  
on CaveTex, visitors to grotto meetings and people who contact me via  
email who express interest in caving and the grotto. We do this in  
hopes of convincing some of these people to continue to be interested  
in caving, going caving with us, attending meetings or caving events,  
etc.


The number of people that we get that actually continue to express any  
interest in any of these activities is extremely small. Not that  
there's anything wrong with that; if a person isn't interested enough  
to actually go on a wild caving trip somewhere, then they probably  
aren't going to want to go to the trouble and expense to obtain the  
gear to become an organized caver. I tend to think of my efforts as  
educational, in some aspect. As Bill said, people are curious, and by  
giving them a free newsletter or two, that seems to satisfy most  
people. No sense in being overly secretive and hiding what it means to  
be a caver. But expecting everyone who expresses some interest in the  
activity to actually want to do it (and do it in an organized way) is  
hopelessly optimistic, whether the activity is caving or mountain  
biking or scrapbooking.


Diana

On Dec 12, 2008, at 1:39 PM, William H. Russell wrote:

Ediger has long thought there are large numbers of unknown  
"cavers" that can be brought into organized caving, with a benefit  
both to both groups.  This has not proved to be the case.  For many  
years Ediger preached that we should reach out to the unorganized by  
including them in the TSA weather they knew it or not.  To do this  
he watered down the membership requirements of t

[Texascavers] On the value of outreach

[Thomas Sitch]

 
Okay, a little background.  I’ve been caving since I was 7 or 8, when my dad 
and brother and I explored lava tubes we found by the road or sea caves along 
the coast in California.  Around age twelve I convinced my dad to join the NSS, 
and we became part of the SoCal Grotto that met at CalTech in Pasadena.  I’ve 
been a casual (but registered) caver ever since, some 20 years now.
 
Please understand that what follows is the most constructive of criticism.  I 
love cavers, I enjoy hanging out with my fellow cavers, and many of the best 
adventures I’ve had or seen have been part of going to, returning from, or 
exploring a cave.  I also love grotto meetings: I’ve seen slide shows of cavers 
treed by jaguars (looking down), stalactites shot through with silver and 
precious minerals, and ancient caves in the Philippines with aboriginal dugout 
coffins piled up.
 
I (very courteously) disagree with Mixon’s point that there’s a clique for 
everybody.  That’s not really how it looks from the outside.
 
It was very hard to “break in” and feel welcome at the UT Grotto.  There were 
some people who went out of the way to do so (such as Jean, or Aimee) and I 
will always feel incredible gratitude to them for that.  Now I know lots of 
people and count many friends and it’s a good time, but I see a lot of new 
people show up and sit largely excluded.  Despite the fact that UT is the 
largest public university in the country, I believe our current number of 
actual current students can be counted on two hands; maybe just one.
 
We can do better than that.
 
Cavers have a common frame of reference.  We’ve had adventures together, and 
that makes a camaraderie not unlike being old war buddies.  That makes it very 
comfortable to sit with your friends and talk about old or new trips, and 
uncomfortable to look to new faces.
 
Also, some cavers have very strong views on politics and religion, and this 
makes for a “self selecting group,” since some people feel unwelcome.  As much 
as I think sacrifices to Oztotl should be mandatory*, being respectful of a 
diverse set of viewpoints is a better way to go. 
 
The tough stick it out, sure.  Once people go on trips and gain the trust of 
the Old Guard they, too, have a common frame of reference.  But we lose a lot 
of good people long before that, and we lose the other good people that they 
would refer to the world of the dedicated adventuring caver.
 
My point here is that for the good of the caving community we should do more to 
seek out and welcome new blood.  If everyone makes an effort – a conscious 
effort- to engage new people, we’ll grow and be better for it as a community.
 
Best Regards,
 
~~Thomas
 
 
* Joking
--- On Fri, 12/12/08, Mixon Bill  wrote:

From: Mixon Bill 
Subject: [Texascavers] county cavers
To: "Cavers Texas" 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 2:56 PM

There's an expression for the problem people have just pointed out with
Ediger's outreach idea. "You can lead a horse to water but you
can't make him drink." What fraction of people who show up at one or
two grotto meetings do we ever see again? And at least the UT Grotto is large
enough that there should be a clique for anyone really interested.

A lot of the "county cavers" are just high-school students out for a
bit of adventure with their buddies. Next week they'll be floating down a
river and the week after that trying not to die rock climbing. (The frustrating
thing to me is that you know the owner's son and his buddies can go into
that closed cave any time they want to.) Or they're a couple of good ol'
boys who just thought they'd check out that hole on Joe's place, for
want of anything better to do that day. As long as we do make an effort to
provide some training and beginners trips for those who track us down, I
don't see what more we can do.

I'm sure there are a few real cavers who just aren't joiners, but
there's not much we can do about it. I know one guy who was a hard-core and
very active caver and grotto member for thirty years and would never join the
NSS. Finally he did, but only because he hooked up with a woman who insisted on
dragging him to NSS conventions.--Mixon
--
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
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Re: [Texascavers] On the value of outreach

[Bill Bentley]

Thomas, 
 On a recent cave trip we had some new younger members help us in a cave 
dig. (They joined the PBSS Grotto later), They not only made me feel young 
through their exuberance, but I thought one of them was going to fall on the 
ground and start hollering "we're not worthy"!. It made me feel weird to have 
young cavers admiring me because I have been caving for a long while. 
 I am glad to see the new young people get interested in caving. I have 
been a member of the NSS since 1981. I can honestly say that the PBSS has 
always made all new comers feel welcome no matter what their experience level 
is, or their age. We have never had the luxury of so many members that anyone 
could ever be selective or splinter off into niche groups. I also think it is 
important that every caver go on a cave trip at least once with a group of 
cavers that he doesn't know or just met. It can give you a better perspective 
of how other groups go caving. >From the tone of the trip, expertise, to the 
techniques used, and to how people interact. I have done this before and 
besides being interesting, it can be fun. 
  I know what you mean about feeling out of place in a different group. I 
just persevered and eventually as they say..."They have no choice but to accept 
you, cause you won't go away"

Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: Thomas Sitch 
  To: Cavers Texas 
  Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 5:54 PM
  Subject: [Texascavers] On the value of outreach




Okay, a little background.  I’ve been caving since I was 7 or 8, when 
my dad and brother and I explored lava tubes we found by the road or sea caves 
along the coast in California.  Around age twelve I convinced my dad to join 
the NSS, and we became part of the SoCal Grotto that met at CalTech in 
Pasadena.  I’ve been a casual (but registered) caver ever since, some 20 years 
now.

 

Please understand that what follows is the most constructive of 
criticism.  I love cavers, I enjoy hanging out with my fellow cavers, and many 
of the best adventures I’ve had or seen have been part of going to, returning 
from, or exploring a cave.  I also love grotto meetings: I’ve seen slide shows 
of cavers treed by jaguars (looking down), stalactites shot through with silver 
and precious minerals, and ancient caves in the Philippines with aboriginal 
dugout coffins piled up.

 

I (very courteously) disagree with Mixon’s point that there’s a clique 
for everybody.  That’s not really how it looks from the outside.

 

It was very hard to “break in” and feel welcome at the UT Grotto.  
There were some people who went out of the way to do so (such as Jean, or 
Aimee) and I will always feel incredible gratitude to them for that.  Now I 
know lots of people and count many friends and it’s a good time, but I see a 
lot of new people show up and sit largely excluded.  Despite the fact that UT 
is the largest public university in the country, I believe our current number 
of actual current students can be counted on two hands; maybe just one.

 

We can do better than that.

 

Cavers have a common frame of reference.  We’ve had adventures 
together, and that makes a camaraderie not unlike being old war buddies.  That 
makes it very comfortable to sit with your friends and talk about old or new 
trips, and uncomfortable to look to new faces.

 

Also, some cavers have very strong views on politics and religion, and 
this makes for a “self selecting group,” since some people feel unwelcome.  As 
much as I think sacrifices to Oztotl should be mandatory*, being respectful of 
a diverse set of viewpoints is a better way to go. 

 

The tough stick it out, sure.  Once people go on trips and gain the 
trust of the Old Guard they, too, have a common frame of reference.  But we 
lose a lot of good people long before that, and we lose the other good people 
that they would refer to the world of the dedicated adventuring caver.

 

My point here is that for the good of the caving community we should do 
more to seek out and welcome new blood.  If everyone makes an effort – a 
conscious effort- to engage new people, we’ll grow and be better for it as a 
community.

 

Best Regards,

 

~~Thomas

 

 

* Joking


--- On Fri, 12/12/08, Mixon Bill  wrote:

  From: Mixon Bill 
  Subject: [Texascavers] county cavers
  To: "Cavers Texas" 
  Date: Friday, December 12, 2008, 2:56 PM


There's an expression for the problem people have just pointed out with
Ediger's outreach idea. "You can lead a horse to water but you
can't make him drink." What fraction of people who show up at one or
two grotto meetings do we ever see again? And at least the UT Grotto is large
enough that there should be a clique for anyone really interested.

A lot of the "county

[Texascavers] Thomas - UT Grotto Newbie Herder

[Terri Sprouse]

Thomas,

Sounds like you just volunteered to take over the role of Newbie Herder for the 
grotto. Should we vote on it at the next meeting?

I agree, the reality is that the best way to get to know cavers is to go on a 
caving trip with them. I wonder how many people who come to the grotto meeting 
have not been on a caving trip. We need a point person for the UT Grotto to 
follow-up with our newbies to ensure that they GET ON A TRIP, even if its just 
locally to Whirlpool. That is really what opens the door, socially. After a 
series of training trips, most newbies either bond with other cavers, or they 
won't. It's up to them.

Not that the rest of us won't have to make an effort too but, in addition, I 
think we could really use someone who is designated to follow-up - to 
absolutely make sure that the invitation (and possibly follow-up invitations) 
to go on trips is personally made to each of the newbies. 

Could that person be you, Thomas?



--- On Fri, 12/12/08, Thomas Sitch  wrote:
 
>  
> It was very hard to “break in” and feel welcome at the
> UT Grotto.  There were some people who went out of the way
> to do so (such as Jean, or Aimee) and I will always feel
> incredible gratitude to them for that.  Now I know lots of
> people and count many friends and it’s a good time, but I
> see a lot of new people show up and sit largely excluded. 
> 

>  
> The tough stick it out, sure.  Once people go on trips and
> gain the trust of the Old Guard they, too, have a common
> frame of reference.  But we lose a lot of good people long
> before that, and we lose the other good people that they
> would refer to the world of the dedicated adventuring caver.
>  
> My point here is that for the good of the caving community
> we should do more to seek out and welcome new blood.  If
> everyone makes an effort – a conscious effort- to engage
> new people, we’ll grow and be better for it as a
> community.
>  
> Best Regards,
>  
> ~~Thomas
>  




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