Re: [Texascavers] RE: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online!!!! - Bug fixes
I'm publisher for another club (not caving related). We charge $10 per year for all single person memberships. We did all paper mailed newsletters until about 1 year ago. Used to send out all paper newsletters. Now we send out 18 paper copies and about 60 e-mailed PDF's. PDF's are in color, mailed copies are BW. Only club members can get the newsletter. The club above has VERY old members, so your PDF % is likely to be much higher. They also have tons of money, so financial losses due to mailings are not an issue. We really went to PDF because our copier broke. I would recommend only club members get the newsletter, but have a 2 tier pay system. Your mailings will go down drastically (I think), and your publisher (Mark) will be very happy. Mike Flannigan - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] hard copies again
At 08:05 AM 1/17/2009, Mike Flannigan wrote: We did all paper mailed newsletters until about 1 year ago. Used to send out all paper newsletters. Now we send out 18 paper copies and about 60 e-mailed PDF's. PDF's are in color, mailed copies are BW. Only club members can get the newsletter. Here's a good question that nobody's brought up yet. If I can download a PDF, print it out in color, two sided, properly collated, at home (or at work), why in the world would I prefer that The TC editor print out a color master copy, go down to the Office Depot, print out a lesser quality BW photo copy, then go home and mail to me, all at an added expense and hassle? Why? Just because I insisted on having a hard copy that somebody else had to hassle over? It doesn't make sense. I can have a better quality copy at home over the internet than the TSA can ever deliver me in a USPS delivered hard copy--at no expese to the TSA. I would recommend only club members get the newsletter, but have a 2 tier pay system. Your mailings will go down drastically (I think), and your publisher (Mark) will be very happy. Yes, they will. But the TSA should be about Texas caves, caving, and cavers, not just an elite group of caver-politicians who exclude those Texas cavers who don't share their enthusiasm for organization--such as it is. An organization dedicated to safety and conservation and good caving would logically want to spread its message to the maximum number of cavers--not just those few who choose to join the organization. They would be working at cross purposes otherwise--not seeking to educate those independent cavers who's habits they are most in need of affecting. And they would not be taking advantage of an excellent opportunity to attract new members to the organization. --Ediger - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
texascavers Digest 17 Jan 2009 15:27:33 -0000 Issue 692
texascavers Digest 17 Jan 2009 15:27:33 - Issue 692 Topics (messages 9958 through 9969): Re: reduced dues for electronic CAVER 9958 by: Joe Ranzau 9959 by: Fritz Holt subscription and dues sorted out 9960 by: Gill Ediger Re: The TEXAS CAVER Is Now Online - Bug fixes 9961 by: Butch Fralia 9966 by: Minton, Mark 9967 by: Mike Flannigan cost of Texas Caver 9962 by: Mixon Bill 9963 by: Charles Goldsmith Re: A bit of history for everyone : 9964 by: jerryatkin.aol.com 9969 by: Denise P UNTHAW 9965 by: Johnson, Russ (ATX) hard copies again 9968 by: Gill Ediger Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- The TSA has over 6k in the bank... Joe j...@oztotl.com Sent while mobile On Jan 16, 2009, at 4:47 PM, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: Hey, wait a minute, Bill. The Idea here is to put money into the coffers, not take it out.:) -Original Message- From: Gill Ediger [mailto:gi...@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:27 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic CAVER At 01:40 PM 1/16/2009, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Um, we'll have to get back to you on that, Bill. -Original Message- From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com] Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:42 PM To: Cavers Texas Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic version Let's see. Currently the TSA spends, apparently, 130% of my dues printing and mailing the Texas Caver. So if I opt to not receive it printed and mailed, the TSA should _pay me_ $6 a year as my dues. Right? Well, yow, Mixon. There's already that precident. It's sorta like the government bailing out the banks and such. They do a bad job of managing their money on account of a bad idea which they persist in driving forward into oblivion. Think we can put in for a little of that bail out money and get you your 6 bucks? Dudn't seem to be any strings attached. Have the Shrub bring some back to Texas with him. --Ediger - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- That's good news. I can't keep track of which caving organization purchases caves but I am guessing that it would take more than that to make a down payment on another one or to pay off an existing one. In that sense, I doubt that we are overly funded. I am amazed that we can do as much as we do with what we have. Fritz -Original Message- From: Joe Ranzau [mailto:jran...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:51 PM To: Fritz Holt Cc: Gill Ediger; texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic CAVER The TSA has over 6k in the bank... Joe j...@oztotl.com Sent while mobile On Jan 16, 2009, at 4:47 PM, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: Hey, wait a minute, Bill. The Idea here is to put money into the coffers, not take it out.:) -Original Message- From: Gill Ediger [mailto:gi...@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:27 PM To: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic CAVER At 01:40 PM 1/16/2009, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Um, we'll have to get back to you on that, Bill. -Original Message- From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com] Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:42 PM To: Cavers Texas Subject: [Texascavers] reduced dues for electronic version Let's see. Currently the TSA spends, apparently, 130% of my dues printing and mailing the Texas Caver. So if I opt to not receive it printed and mailed, the TSA should _pay me_ $6 a year as my dues. Right? Well, yow, Mixon. There's already that precident. It's sorta like the government bailing out the banks and such. They do a bad job of managing their money on account of a bad idea which they persist in driving forward into oblivion. Think we can put in for a little of that bail out money and get you your 6 bucks? Dudn't seem to be any strings attached. Have the Shrub bring some back to Texas with him. --Ediger - Visit our website:
[Texascavers] Online distribution of the Texas Caver
I worked late yesterday and got home to find 83 emails on this. What a pain. I could feel the stress after I read all of those postings. Bottom line for me, if Mark Alman is tired of doing the work to publish the Texas Caver, he should resign. Let the people who care about it try to keep it alive. It's obviously not about cost. Mike Moore published it inexpensively using a quality color printer. Mark's initial postings indicate that he wants to put all of the back issues online that he can get his hands on. I really do object to any of my past trip reports being available online, as they were not submitted to be distributed that way. We sent digital versions only for the convenience of the editor in publishing the material, not for other types of distribution. Terri - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
CONFIRM subscribe to texascavers@texascavers.com
Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the texascavers@texascavers.com mailing list. I'm working for my owner, who can be reached at texascavers-ow...@texascavers.com. I respectfully request your permission to add terri.spro...@yahoo.com to the subscribers of the texascavers mailing list. This request either came from you, or it has already been verified by the potential subscriber. To confirm, please send an empty reply to this address: texascavers-tc.1232224637.gjmnhollldhfkhacbiji-terri.sprouse=yahoo@texascavers.com Usually, this happens when you just hit the reply button. If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into the To: field of a new message. If you don't approve, simply ignore this message. Thank you for your help! --- Administrative commands for the texascavers list --- I can handle administrative requests automatically. Please do not send them to the list address! Instead, send your message to the correct command address: For help and a description of available commands, send a message to: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com To subscribe to the list, send a message to: texascavers-subscr...@texascavers.com To remove your address from the list, just send a message to the address in the ``List-Unsubscribe'' header of any list message. If you haven't changed addresses since subscribing, you can also send a message to: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For addition or removal of addresses, I'll send a confirmation message to that address. When you receive it, simply reply to it to complete the transaction. If you need to get in touch with the human owner of this list, please send a message to: texascavers-ow...@texascavers.com Please include a FORWARDED list message with ALL HEADERS intact to make it easier to help you. --- Enclosed is a copy of the request I received. Return-Path: terri.spro...@yahoo.com Received: (qmail 70416 invoked by uid 89); 17 Jan 2009 20:37:17 - Received: from unknown (HELO web63507.mail.re1.yahoo.com) (69.147.97.62) by 192.168.254.10 with SMTP; 17 Jan 2009 20:37:17 - Received: (qmail 68583 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Jan 2009 20:37:18 - DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=OkWlLe72Yy4fE2y8XDIgHaljD6RrpV9a/b0ZTDU8F4a4tg8zub2WIh3e6zGBg2laanM6/uiuR9b2mnDZqZ3r+/Dh3OwyeD2PwHeOzBQz597ZLEbjiBze81T5+ah1IwwuMzEMOG7ddWXgVGIwSryj9Hzm+SRF70oM+StvIsyaytU=; X-YMail-OSG: 8KDXNBkVM1l9rdHcy7GB6VrojW3elbEAr4yVFivlEgPq2W1PC4RV9YFVeHAThxc9GqIZhltjyhfRrXraaPheHzDDVcAfHCu84EfKTYF7W7alBLoAIawAj035Ak_kIV0UfBZxVotcMZ_oOWP3nR.gUL8c5Ps- Received: from [70.113.52.126] by web63507.mail.re1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:37:18 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.7.260.1 List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:37:18 -0800 (PST) From: Terri Sprouse terri.spro...@yahoo.com To: texascavers-sc.1232224526.lpgfdloeboojpjhpbboi-terri.sprouse=yahoo@texascavers.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: 409556.68499...@web63507.mail.re1.yahoo.com
Re: CONFIRM subscribe to texascavers@texascavers.com
On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 2:37 PM, texascavers-h...@texascavers.com wrote: Hi! This is the ezmlm program. I'm managing the texascavers@texascavers.com mailing list. I'm working for my owner, who can be reached at texascavers-ow...@texascavers.com. I respectfully request your permission to add terri.spro...@yahoo.com to the subscribers of the texascavers mailing list. This request either came from you, or it has already been verified by the potential subscriber. To confirm, please send an empty reply to this address: texascavers-tc.1232224637.gjmnhollldhfkhacbiji-terri.sprouse=yahoo@texascavers.com Usually, this happens when you just hit the reply button. If this does not work, simply copy the address and paste it into the To: field of a new message. If you don't approve, simply ignore this message. Thank you for your help! --- Administrative commands for the texascavers list --- I can handle administrative requests automatically. Please do not send them to the list address! Instead, send your message to the correct command address: For help and a description of available commands, send a message to: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com To subscribe to the list, send a message to: texascavers-subscr...@texascavers.com To remove your address from the list, just send a message to the address in the ``List-Unsubscribe'' header of any list message. If you haven't changed addresses since subscribing, you can also send a message to: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For addition or removal of addresses, I'll send a confirmation message to that address. When you receive it, simply reply to it to complete the transaction. If you need to get in touch with the human owner of this list, please send a message to: texascavers-ow...@texascavers.com Please include a FORWARDED list message with ALL HEADERS intact to make it easier to help you. --- Enclosed is a copy of the request I received. Return-Path: terri.spro...@yahoo.com Received: (qmail 70416 invoked by uid 89); 17 Jan 2009 20:37:17 - Received: from unknown (HELO web63507.mail.re1.yahoo.com) (69.147.97.62) by 192.168.254.10 with SMTP; 17 Jan 2009 20:37:17 - Received: (qmail 68583 invoked by uid 60001); 17 Jan 2009 20:37:18 - DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=OkWlLe72Yy4fE2y8XDIgHaljD6RrpV9a/b0ZTDU8F4a4tg8zub2WIh3e6zGBg2laanM6/uiuR9b2mnDZqZ3r+/Dh3OwyeD2PwHeOzBQz597ZLEbjiBze81T5+ah1IwwuMzEMOG7ddWXgVGIwSryj9Hzm+SRF70oM+StvIsyaytU=; X-YMail-OSG: 8KDXNBkVM1l9rdHcy7GB6VrojW3elbEAr4yVFivlEgPq2W1PC4RV9YFVeHAThxc9GqIZhltjyhfRrXraaPheHzDDVcAfHCu84EfKTYF7W7alBLoAIawAj035Ak_kIV0UfBZxVotcMZ_oOWP3nR.gUL8c5Ps- Received: from [70.113.52.126] by web63507.mail.re1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:37:18 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.7.260.1 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:37:18 -0800 (PST) From: Terri Sprouse terri.spro...@yahoo.com To: texascavers-sc.1232224526.lpgfdloeboojpjhpbboi-terri.sprouse=yahoo@texascavers.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-ID: 409556.68499...@web63507.mail.re1.yahoo.com
Re: [NMCAVER] NMCAVER Digest, Vol 14, Issue 10
nmcaver-requ...@caver.net wrote: Send NMCAVER mailing list submissions to nmca...@caver.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nmcaver-requ...@caver.net You can reach the person managing the list at nmcaver-ow...@caver.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of NMCAVER digest... Today's Topics: 1. Crystallization of Calcium Carbonate (Minton, Mark) -- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:25:11 -0500 From: Minton, Mark mmin...@nmhu.edu Subject: [NMCAVER] Crystallization of Calcium Carbonate To: nmca...@caver.net, txcaver texascavers@texascavers.com, gvks gvkarstsur...@googlegroups.com Message-ID: 6163E96D-3154-4CB8-9858-51CB530022DC@mimectl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://caver.net/pipermail/nmcaver_caver.net/attachments/20090116/7736a12a/attachment-0001.html Mark--how about sending your messages in plain text so the rest of us can read them? Pat O'Connell ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
Re: [NMCAVER] NMCAVER Digest, Vol 14, Issue 10
Pat, how about sending your messages in plain text so the rest of us can read them? As far as I know, it was sent in plain text, but here it is again. I wonder if the digest messed it up, as I don't get mine that way. Mark For the scientifically inclined, there are recent articles in the journal Science about the mechanism by which calcium carbonate crystallizes. If you do not have access to Science, you may be able to get it free by registering at http://www.sciencemag.org/subscriptions/indiv_register.dtl. Stable Prenucleation Calcium Carbonate Clusters Denis Gebauer, Antje Völkel, Helmut Cölfen Science, v. 322, p. 1819 (2008) See also Now You See Them Fiona C. Meldrum, Richard P. Sear Science, v. 322, p. 1802 (2008) A less technical summary is available at http://www.rdmag.com/ShowPR~PUBCODE~014~ACCT~140100~ISSUE~0901~RELTYPE~PSC~PRODCODE~~PRODLETT~AG.html. Mark Minton ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
RE: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Sorry if I did not do a good job on the meeting minutes. I am new to this, and my head was spinning with all the info going back and forth during the meeting. Perhaps I did not capture exactly what was decided about going electronic on the TC. I recorded the meeting on a recorder (hopefully), and can check it and report back. Though I'd rather not sit through that entire 1.25-hour meeting again, painful. It did not seem that important to me, so I only reported what seemed relevant. I had no idea it would be that controversial. I need to become better at foreseeing the future perhaps. There is no way I am going back and reading years of meeting minutes though. If that were a job requirement, I would resign. Regarding what was important about the finances, while I failed to state we had $7000 in the bank, I did report our ~$2000 loss for last year, and that was the big tropic of discussion, not the positive balance. So I think I did focus on the most important issue here. Maybe we can post the entire Treasurer's Report on the TSA website for full disclosure. It's easy to say what should have been done in retrospect, but a lot harder to get everything exactly right at the time it was occurring. People just love to find something to gripe about, and it gets annoying. We are trying to do our best but will always fail if perfection is expected. Give us officers a flipping break, please. Or at least me as I cannot really speak for the rest. -Denise To: wo...@justfamily.org; bmixon...@austin.rr.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:58:05 -0500From: jerryatkin@aol.comCC: texascavers@texascavers.comSubject: Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :Interesting discussion. Probably not to most readers, but educational nonetheless.The number of postings and the rancor of the discussion lead to one very important point: the membership considers this a rather important issue. While it's true that only a few vocal posters have lead this discussion, I believe that a lot of members have opinions one way or the other. The issue of electronic vs hardcopy has been brought up several times before in the history of the TSA with decidedly heated results. It should have been no surprise to the TSA officers that it would be somewhat controversial to announce that the TxCvr was going electronic and not explain the details. I read the minutes of the last meeting and they didn't even include the discussion of the issue. The minutes read:The TSA Needs Money – Alman suggested raising dues $5 per person and making it optional to receive the TEXAS CAVER only electronically (would save $5 per issue). Joe Ranzau brought up that it is a bad time to raise dues with the current economy. We have $7000 in the bank to cover another year in the red. Someone suggested printing less extra copies of the TEXAS CAVER to save costs. Alman says perhaps as an incentive the electronic copy could be longer than the hardcopy. Alman says in the next TEXAS CAVER he will propose the idea of offering it electronically instead of hardcopy for those interested, and see what the responses are. Alman will check with Butch on how it could be put on the web site. It was agreed we do not need a vote on this.As I read that, the issue was to be proposed and the responses tabulated. It seems we've come a bit further in the last 5 days than a simple proposal. Maybe the membership should have voted on the issue at the last meeting.Several years ago, the general membership was balloted as to their preferences of electronic vs hardcopy for the Texas Caver and the results were approximately 50:50. Times change, but there are still quite a few people out there that love and cherish their paper copies. Their desires should not be lightly dismissed as old fashioned or silly. They certainly should not be belittled. --- Your garandma might fight you if you try to take away her rocking chair.Note to the TSA officers: 1.) If you want to have more participation at TSA meetings, put together an agenda before the meeting and post it to CaveTex (TexasCavers.com).2.) Those that do not study the past are doomed to repeat it. Read the old minutes from past meetings. It's your duty to know the history of your organization.3.) While it's always a good idea to promote savings and tout the great things that these savings might be better spent on, our collective TSA history h as not supported this theory. It would be a better sell if the TSA did not have approximately $7000 in the bank, and could easily get back to a positive cash flow balance with a more prudent selection of printers and mailing options. The TSA operated on a shoestring budget for almost 40 years (it once had a balance of $21 as I recall), and was a lot more robust and productive than today. 4.) Money is not the key challenge that the TSA has today. It's what does the TSA want to become in order to better serve it's membership.5.) We
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Just my point of view: I've got a pc and a laptop I dislike them both,I put them right up there with a recorded message telling me to hold on my call is important!!! I've got 2 cell phones I hate them as well. I can't curl up and be comfortable reading /listening to a book /pub on a computer even a lap top(it keeps falling off my lap. who coined that name )? I like books real hold in the hands ink smelling books. Something I can read when the power is off or the LAP TOP is lying dead and useless sitting in the corner. Who will be the depository of these silver frisbees if i want to look up an old article or will they just go to alphabet heaven. Maybe when I die I'll cross that Rainbow Bridge and see all my old dogs(chewing on all the old Texas Cavers.) Hopefully you all know about the Rainbow Bridge. www.rainbowbridge.com jerryat...@aol.com wrote: Interesting discussion. Probably not to most readers, but educational nonetheless. The number of postings and the rancor of the discussion lead to one very important point: the membership considers this a rather important issue. While it's true that only a few vocal posters have lead this discussion, I believe that a lot of members have opinions one way or the other. The issue of electronic vs hardcopy has been brought up several times before in the history of the TSA with decidedly heated results. It should have been no surprise to the TSA officers that it would be somewhat controversial to announce that the TxCvr was going electronic and not explain the details. I read the minutes of the last meeting and they didn't even include the discussion of the issue. The minutes read: The TSA Needs Money – Alman suggested raising dues $5 per person and making it optional to receive the TEXAS CAVER only electronically (would save $5 per issue). Joe Ranzau brought up that it is a bad time to raise dues with the current economy. We have $7000 in the bank to cover another year in the red. Someone suggested printing less extra copies of the TEXAS CAVER to save costs. Alman says perhaps as an incentive the electronic copy could be longer than the hardcopy. Alman says in the next TEXAS CAVER he will propose the idea of offering it electronically instead of hardcopy for those interested, and see what the responses are. Alman will check with Butch on how it could be put on20the web site. It was agreed we do not need a vote on this. As I read that, the issue was to be proposed and the responses tabulated. It seems we've come a bit further in the last 5 days than a simple proposal. Maybe the membership should have voted on the issue at the last meeting. Several years ago, the general membership was balloted as to their preferences of electronic vs hardcopy for the Texas Caver and the results were approximately 50:50. Times change, but there are still quite a few people out there that love and cherish their paper copies. Their desires should not be lightly dismissed as old fashioned or silly. They certainly should not be belittled. --- Your garandma might fight you if you try to take away her rocking chair. Note to the TSA officers: 1.) If you want to have more participation at TSA meetings, put together an agenda before the meeting and post it to CaveTex (TexasCavers.com). 2.) Those that do not study the past are doomed to repeat it. Read the old minutes from past meetings. It's your duty to know the history of your organization. 3.) While it's always a good idea to promote savings and tout the great things that these savings might be better spent on, our collective TSA history has not supported this theory. It would be a better sell if the TSA did not have approximately $7000 in the bank, and could easily get back to a positive cash flow balance with a more prudent selection of printers and m ailing options. The TSA operated on a shoestring budget for almost 40 years (it once had a balance of $21 as I recall), and was a lot more robust and productive than today. 4.) Money is not the key challenge that the TSA has today. It's what does the TSA want to become in order to better serve it's membership. 5.) We actually lowered TSA dues in 2003 as theTexas Caver was not being printed on a regular basis. 6.) The Secretary could expand a bit on some of the more important topics discussed at the TSA meetings when writing up the minutes. e.g. In the Treasurer's Report, there was no mention of the actual balance in the TSA accounts, even though that was a central topic of the meeting. Hang in there guys, there's nothing like on the job training. Jerry. -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com Cc: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [Texascavers] cost of Texas Caver Bill, I won't speak to the costs, Mark
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Denise, I wasn't there, so I can't compare the notes, and it sounds like a lot of the people complaining weren't either. There is no way you could have forseen this. I'll say this for the last time to all of the naysayers, stop complaining if you didn't attend the meeting! These are our elected officials, if you don't like the way they run things, change it during the next election! If you don't like the decisions they are making, show up and vote! It would probably be prudent for the officers to post an agenda from now on, preferably a few weeks in advance and here to the mailing list, so people can make plans to attend. Would this have solved our problems here? Probably not, because it sounds like the issue was the red ink, and these decisions were in response to that. Just my $0.02 worth, and take it for what it's worth, since I didn't attend either :) Charles On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Denise P pepabe...@hotmail.com wrote: Sorry if I did not do a good job on the meeting minutes. I am new to this, and my head was spinning with all the info going back and forth during the meeting. Perhaps I did not capture exactly what was decided about going electronic on the TC. I recorded the meeting on a recorder (hopefully), and can check it and report back. Though I'd rather not sit through that entire 1.25-hour meeting again, painful. It did not seem that important to me, so I only reported what seemed relevant. I had no idea it would be that controversial. I need to become better at foreseeing the future perhaps. There is no way I am going back and reading years of meeting minutes though. If that were a job requirement, I would resign. Regarding what was important about the finances, while I failed to state we had $7000 in the bank, I did report our ~$2000 loss for last year, and that was the big tropic of discussion, not the positive balance. So I think I did focus on the most important issue here. Maybe we can post the entire Treasurer's Report on the TSA website for full disclosure. It's easy to say what should have been done in retrospect, but a lot harder to get everything exactly right at the time it was occurring. People just love to find something to gripe about, and it gets annoying. We are trying to do our best but will always fail if perfection is expected. Give us officers a flipping break, please. Or at least me as I cannot really speak for the rest. -Denise To: wo...@justfamily.org; bmixon...@austin.rr.com Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:58:05 -0500 From: jerryat...@aol.com CC: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone : Interesting discussion. Probably not to most readers, but educational nonetheless. The number of postings and the rancor of the discussion lead to one very important point: the membership considers this a rather important issue. While it's true that only a few vocal posters have lead this discussion, I believe that a lot of members have opinions one way or the other. The issue of electronic vs hardcopy has been brought up several times before in the history of the TSA with decidedly heated results. It should have been no surprise to the TSA officers that it would be somewhat controversial to announce that the TxCvr was going electronic and not explain the details. I read the minutes of the last meeting and they didn't even include the discussion of the issue. The minutes read: The TSA Needs Money – Alman suggested raising dues $5 per person and making it optional to receive the TEXAS CAVER only electronically (would save $5 per issue). Joe Ranzau brought up that it is a bad time to raise dues with the current economy. We have $7000 in the bank to cover another year in the red. Someone suggested printing less extra copies of the TEXAS CAVER to save costs. Alman says perhaps as an incentive the electronic copy could be longer than the hardcopy. Alman says in the next TEXAS CAVER he will propose the idea of offering it electronically instead of hardcopy for those interested, and see what the responses are. Alman will check with Butch on how it could be put on the web site. It was agreed we do not need a vote on this. As I read that, the issue was to be proposed and the responses tabulated. It seems we've come a bit further in the last 5 days than a simple proposal. Maybe the membership should have voted on the issue at the last meeting. Several years ago, the general membership was balloted as to their preferences of electronic vs hardcopy for the Texas Caver and the results were approximately 50:50. Times change, but there are still quite a few people out there that love and cherish their paper copies. Their desires should not be lightly dismissed as old fashioned or silly. They certainly should not be belittled. --- Your garandma might fight you if you try to take away her rocking chair. Note to the TSA officers: 1.)
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Charles Could you send me the link to the page with the unsubscribing instructions for this list please? Nico
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Texascavers.com On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Charles Could you send me the link to the page with the unsubscribing instructions for this list please? Nico
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Thank you Charles, might you let me know when this discussion is over so I can sign up again? On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.orgwrote: Texascavers.com On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Charles Could you send me the link to the page with the unsubscribing instructions for this list please? Nico
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
No, Nico, don't give up on them! We need you connected to us. Maybe they'll stop. Maybe they'll even go caving. Bill --Original Message-- From: Nico Escamilla To: Texascavers Mailing List Cc: Charles Goldsmith Sent: Jan 17, 2009 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone : Charles Could you send me the link to the page with the unsubscribing instructions for this list please? Nico Sent via BlackBerry by ATT
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Unsubbing isn't the answer, the delete key on the subjects you aren't interested in is the key. Unless you are just doing this out of protest, which is understandable. Controversy usually sends people packing, according to the limited amount of data/subscribers I've seen over the years :) Charles On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you Charles, might you let me know when this discussion is over so I can sign up again? On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Texascavers.com On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Charles Could you send me the link to the page with the unsubscribing instructions for this list please? Nico
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
It is indeed out of protest that Im doing this, I am not a TSA member and probably never will as I'm anti anything political (or speleopolitical for that matter) but this discussion is just ridiculous, they all talk about costs and having their bookshelf full of paper wont they think of the non monetary resources being wasted? a few trees will be saved by switching the Caver to electronic paper IMO I will eventually sign back up when they drop this senseless discussion On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.orgwrote: Unsubbing isn't the answer, the delete key on the subjects you aren't interested in is the key. Unless you are just doing this out of protest, which is understandable. Controversy usually sends people packing, according to the limited amount of data/subscribers I've seen over the years :) Charles On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you Charles, might you let me know when this discussion is over so I can sign up again? On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Texascavers.com On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Charles Could you send me the link to the page with the unsubscribing instructions for this list please? Nico
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
I figured as much, not sure if you know, but I do archive this list into gmail groups (its not public though), so if you want to browse and not be subed :) Go to http://groups.google.com/group/cavetex and it should have something about joining, if not, let me know. It's not the most user friendly to get signed up, or wasn't when I set it up. I'll be in touch when things quieten down. Charles On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: It is indeed out of protest that Im doing this, I am not a TSA member and probably never will as I'm anti anything political (or speleopolitical for that matter) but this discussion is just ridiculous, they all talk about costs and having their bookshelf full of paper wont they think of the non monetary resources being wasted? a few trees will be saved by switching the Caver to electronic paper IMO I will eventually sign back up when they drop this senseless discussion On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Unsubbing isn't the answer, the delete key on the subjects you aren't interested in is the key. Unless you are just doing this out of protest, which is understandable. Controversy usually sends people packing, according to the limited amount of data/subscribers I've seen over the years :) Charles On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you Charles, might you let me know when this discussion is over so I can sign up again? On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Texascavers.com On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Charles Could you send me the link to the page with the unsubscribing instructions for this list please? Nico
[Texascavers] why join the TSA?
It's a pretty sad state of affairs in Texas if the Texas Caver's circulation is so low that it can't go bulk rate. Hell, when I was in Chicago, the _grotto's_ newsletter was sent bulk rate. With all due respect (and then some) to brother Gillum, _my_ membership in the TSA _is_ primarily a subscription to the Texas Caver. What else am I getting? Cave acquisition and management? There are two (well, one and a half) other groups in Texas I can support to do that. Fellowship? That's done better by TCR. As Gill points out, it could perhaps be done better by the TSA, too, as far as unaffiliated cavers are concerned, but that needn't cost money. Education? Well, there's the spring convention, but that's meant to be self-supporting; there isn't even a TSA member discount. Cave files and book publications? The Texas Speleological Survey does that. Public relations? Well, there are things to be done there in the fields of conservation, etc., but the TSA couldn't spend $2000 a year on that if it tried. If the expense of the Texas Caver is eliminated by going on-line, then reasonable TSA dues seem to me to be about $5 a year, based on the money I can see it spending usefully without duplicating what other groups are doing (or simply passing on my money to those other groups). Actually, to cut costs I wouldn't mind at all if the Texas Caver were produced less expensively, without the color covers, the saddle- stitching, and all that. It's the material in it that counts. But some contributors might be lost if the quality of production declined. The fact that any copy I print myself will be of less printing quality than what I'm getting now doesn't bother me particularly. (Gill may have an 11x17 color laser printer and a saddle-stapler, but I don't.) But if I'm paying for it, I want it. -- Mixon -- You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
