texascavers Digest 23 Feb 2009 05:46:33 -0000 Issue 714

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 23 Feb 2009 05:46:33 - Issue 714

Topics (messages 10212 through 10227):

Re: Kinda hurts
10212 by: Sheryl Rieck

Re: Kinda hurts my soul
10213 by: John P. Brooks
10215 by: bcow911.satx.rr.com
10216 by: Ron Miller

Guano Gathering
10214 by: Joe Datri

Keith Huess - Need your email address. Please contact me off-list.
10217 by: Lyndon Tiu

Christi Bennett - Need your email address. Please contact me off-list.
10218 by: Lyndon Tiu

Re: [greater_houston_grotto] Cool (on-campus/non-caving) volunteer 
opportunities at the ICS
10219 by: germanyj.aol.com
10220 by: Lyndon Tiu

15th ICS - These 17 Caves Need Trip Leaders
10221 by: germanyj.aol.com

The TSA Members Area...
10222 by: Mark Alman

Re: 15th ICS - Contact Info for Kickapoo Volunteers
10223 by: Lyndon Tiu
10224 by: Lyndon Tiu

Photos needed
10225 by: Aimee Beveridge

Center of the Caving Universe
10226 by: Mixon Bill
10227 by: Gary McDaniel

Administrivia:

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--
--- Begin Message ---
It is on Yahoo News this morning.  And, you are right.  It did say it was an
old mine in the article, but late they call it a cave.

Sheryl

-Original Message-
From: Gill Ediger [mailto:gi...@worldnet.att.net] 
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2009 10:15 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Kinda hurts 

At 05:37 PM 2/20/2009, speleoste...@tx.rr.com wrote:
>That does not look like a natural cave to me. Instead, it looks like 
>a limestone quarry,

I think the original article said it was a sand stone quarry/mine.
--Ediger


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Excuse me for sounding like a sour pussbut it is a quarry.AND WHY
isn¹t anyone¹s ³soul hurting² for the caves that have been and are being
destroyed by urban sprawl in Central Texas? In my humble opinion; building
houses, Walmarts, hotels, strip centers AND patronizing those business is a
much greater sin against nature..and yet I know cavers and other
environmentalist types who love to live out in those brushy hills...and buy
all their cheap plastic stuff at Walmartand love to go for a Saturday
drive in the ³country² on freeways that trench a horrid scar across our
beautiful karst many of us add our little piece of this damage everyday
through our daily actions.

It ³hurts my soul² that I live this way...and have little choice in the
matter.

To complain about a house in a quarry, that some call a cave, seems to me a
bit inauthentic...and it covers a pain that we all feel when we consider the
damage being done all around us. If this type of thing offends us, we should
be called to action. We should be lobbying for ³urban growth² boundaries for
out cities to protect the remaining hill country, before it ALL becomes
covered with parking lots and fry pits and Walmarts and Big Box retailers.
We should being saying enough to the everyday excessive use of automobiles
AND insist that development be SMART. We should support initatives that
create walkable, more dense cities that have and support mass transit. I
could go on.but will not. But I do hope that we can all see the ³cancer²
that we are creatingif ones desire is to save caves; one might start by
looking at the real problemand that is how we use our fragile land
everyday.


And excuse me if I sound brash...I woke up with some kind of stomach crud
this morning...jb



On 2/20/09 5:10 PM, "Louise Power"  wrote:

> Why would anybody want to ruin a perfectly good cave with a house? What family
> of 5 needs 17000 sq ft? What happened to all the cave formations? Where does
> their waste go? Does it pollute the ground water? It looks cool, but degrades
> the whole area!
>  
> I was appalled.
>  
> When I was in what was then called Yugoslavia, there were people in the Karst
> Mountains living in caves out of necessity, not necessarily because it was
> cool. They also penned up their livestock right there in the entrance. (Where
> is Glade room freshener when you need it?)
> 
>  Louise
> 
> Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:31:07 -0800
> From: kat...@yahoo.com
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] Kinda hurts my soul
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330306913609&ssPageName=ADM
> E:B:EF:US:1123 
>  eName=ADME:B:EF:US:1123>
>  
> Just in case someone wants a cave home in missouri. I'm sure it had low energy
> bills.
> 
>  
> Ma

Re: [Texascavers] Center of the Caving Universe

[Gary McDaniel]

 Austin got the bickering award?




On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:

> Austin as the Center of the Caving Universe department:
>
> The National Speleological Society's highest awards to individuals are the
> Honorary Membership and the Outstanding Service Award, each of which is
> given to one person per year. The NSS Board of Governors selects the
> recipient of these awards, and the award conveys life membership in the
> society.
>
> Next in status are four awards given to one person or couple per year. They
> are selected by the NSS Awards Committee and confirmed by the BOG. These
> awards are the Bicking Award for cave exploration (considered by many cavers
> to be the highest award), the Conservation Award, the Science Award, and the
> Spelean Arts and Letters Award.
>
> Of these awards, cavers currently living in the Austin area have received:
>
> 1 Honorary Membership
> 1 Outstanding Service Award
> 2 Bicking Awards
> 2 Conservation Awards
> 1 Science Award
> 1 Arts and Letters Award
>
> Can any other city claim eight or more of these awards?
> --Bill Mixon
> --
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>


-- 
~Gary McDaniel
 Grand Junction, CO

[Texascavers] Center of the Caving Universe

[Mixon Bill]

Austin as the Center of the Caving Universe department:

The National Speleological Society's highest awards to individuals are  
the Honorary Membership and the Outstanding Service Award, each of  
which is given to one person per year. The NSS Board of Governors  
selects the recipient of these awards, and the award conveys life  
membership in the society.


Next in status are four awards given to one person or couple per year.  
They are selected by the NSS Awards Committee and confirmed by the  
BOG. These awards are the Bicking Award for cave exploration  
(considered by many cavers to be the highest award), the Conservation  
Award, the Science Award, and the Spelean Arts and Letters Award.


Of these awards, cavers currently living in the Austin area have  
received:


1 Honorary Membership
1 Outstanding Service Award
2 Bicking Awards
2 Conservation Awards
1 Science Award
1 Arts and Letters Award

Can any other city claim eight or more of these awards?
--Bill Mixon
--
You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org



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Re: [ot_caving] Urine or You're Out - Another Perspective

[Justin Shaw]

>> THE JOB - URINE TEST
>> (Whoever wrote this one down deserves a HUGE pat on the back!)
>>
>> Like a lot of folks in this state, I have a job. I work, they pay me. I
>> pay my taxes and the government distributes my taxes as it sees fit. In
>> order to get that paycheck, I am required to pass a random urine test with
>> which I have no problem. What I do have a problem with is the distribution
>> of my taxes to people who don't have to pass a urine test.
>> Shouldn't one have to pass a urine test to get a welfare check because I
>> have to pass one to earn it for them? Please understand, I have no problem
>> with helping people get back on their feet. I do, on the other hand, have a
>> problem with helping someone sitting on their A--, doing drugs, while I
>> work. . . Can you imagine how much money the state would save if people had
>> to pass a urine test to get a public assistance check?
>>
>> I guess we could title that program, 'Urine or You're Out'.
>>
>> Pass this along if you agree or simply delete if you don't. Hope you all
>> will pass it along, though. . Some thing has to change in this country --
>> and soon!!!
>
>
--

   Actually, some people do have to subject themselves to this type of
draconian barbarism to receive much needed assistance. My mother for
one, who suffers from rather extreme fibromyalgia, and is therefore
prescribed narcotic medications with extreme side effects including
permanent liver damage, permanent kidney damage, lack of cognitive
thought process, an increases in blood pressure - oh lookie, they have
a drug for her high blood pressure too, and lookie, it has side
affects too…

   Now because my mom is on permanent disability, she cannot work, not
even just this weekend for you watching your kids, because if the
government finds out, she's out of assistance and on the streets.
What's even more draconian is the fact that she had to sign an
agreement that she can be randomly drug tested at any time.

   Fibromyalgia is a disease that affects the connective tissue of the
human body. Marijuana is an herb that has been proven in many studies
(mostly outside of this country) to dramatically decrease the brains
perception of non-localized (and localized) pain, among many other
benefits.

   In short, my mom CAN take narcotic medications that make the
pharmaceutical companies, doctors, and politicians rich, have major
side affects, and provide minimal relief without a constant increase
in dosage. - Remember, this isn't like when you break something and
get scrip for two weeks. My mother is expected to live the rest of her
life this way, which will be greatly shortened by the medications she
is taking.

   She CAN'T smoke a couple hits of marijuana, supporting a local
cottage industry, and relieving her pain without any known or
suspected side affects. If she did this, she would be out of pain, and
able to get a good nights sleep, unfortunately she might not have a
roof to sleep under, or a way to afford food.

   Due to an agenda established by the Food and Drug Administration
and with banners carried forward by those ever two faced and
illiterate fundamentalist Christians (if they were literate they would
read that the bible actually says god provided all seed bearing plants
for the use of man Genesis 1:11) my mother, like millions of other
Americans is forced to live in pain for the profit of the already
rich.

   This is not in the spirit of a free country.

   The writer of this e-mail states  "In order to get that paycheck, I
am required to pass a random urine test with which I have no problem".
Those last six words are actually the most worrisome aspect of this
person's point of view. To not have a problem with your employer drug
testing you.

   You do realize this is your employer saying to you, that in no
uncertain terms, they don't trust you? How could you ever bee so
foolish as to trust someone who doesn't trust you? Would you do that
of a person? A corporation is no different than a person. So why do
you work for a company that doesn't trust you?

   Wouldn't you rather work for a company that trusts it's managers to
properly assess a person's ability to do their job? Imagine if this
was done regardless of what drugs that person may need to do there
job. Human quality cannot be quantified.

   Almost every person holding down a steady job in this country is on
drugs. Some legal, some illegal. There are the stimulants; Caffeine
being the number one, also popular is Adderall and Cocaine, depending
on business class. Then there are the relaxants, such as Paxil,
Marijuana, and Kava Kava.  What's the important difference in these
drugs? Education and Taxation.

   I say, Educate and establish a tax-rate, don't legislate and incarcerate.

   The writer of this e-mail also states "Some thing has to change in
this country -- and soon!" Trust me things are going to change. This
unsustainable

[NMCAVER] Cave home in Missouri, on ebay

[John Lyles]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=330306913609

___
NMCAVER mailing list
nmca...@caver.net
http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net

[Texascavers] Photos needed

[Aimee Beveridge]

The staff of Plunge Productions is looking for scanned images for our upcoming 
movie "Texas Cavers".   Your assistance is so appreciated.

What we need:

Old camp photos
Kirkwood pics
1964, 1979 and 1994 Texas NSS conventions. (PLEASE)
Groad Hollow pics

Older photos of the following cavers:
Bev Shade
Ernie Garza
Gill Ediger
Jean Krejca
 Peter Sprouse
Bill Stone
Bill Steele
Pete Strickland
Carl Kunath
William Russell
Logan McNatt
Fofo Gonzales
Gustavo Vela
etc.  

hmmm, as we write this we are realizing that it might be easier to ask you if 
you would like to send us any cool old photos that you think would be a good 
add to a movie about the history of Texas and Mexico cavers.  

Send photos via email to Grace Borengasser at grac...@gmail.com






  

Re: [Texascavers] Re: 15th ICS - Contact Info for Kickapoo Volunteers

[Lyndon Tiu]

Didn't mean to send this to the whole list. Please ignore.

Lyndon Tiu wrote:


My schedule is flexible and nothing is final. So keep my name on your 
list of trip leaders and we can finalize closer to the dates. If in the 
next few months, we can get another trip leader for 
Fredericksburg/Encjanted Rock, then that will free me up for Kickapoo.


Thanks.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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--
Lyndon Tiu

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[Texascavers] Re: 15th ICS - Contact Info for Kickapoo Volunteers

[Lyndon Tiu]

My schedule is flexible and nothing is final. So keep my name on your 
list of trip leaders and we can finalize closer to the dates. If in the 
next few months, we can get another trip leader for 
Fredericksburg/Encjanted Rock, then that will free me up for Kickapoo.


Thanks.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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[Texascavers] The TSA Members Area...

[Mark Alman]

keeps growing and growing and growing!


We are now approaching 30% of membership having registered.

Those there can now enjoy the latest TEXAS CAVER, as well as the last two years 
and a couple of back issues.

If you haven't joined, either as a TSA Member or joined the Online Members 
area, what are you waiting for?


Go to www.cavetexas.org and see what you've been missing.


If you are a member and have already signed up in the Online Members area, I 
need for you to select how you want your TC.

Update your profile and look at the following:


How I wish to receive the Texas Caver?:        Select: Mail or Online
 
 
Never fear if you select "Mail".
 
You can still view the current and past issues online, although, we sure would 
appreciate it if you would select "Online".
 
 
This area has grown quickly in just over a month and I'm surprised at how 
successful it has been!
 
 
Much of the recognotion needs to go to Butch Fralia for keeping it all cobbled 
together, updated, and running so well.
 
 
Check it out and join or update today!
 
 
Thanks!

 
Mark


  

[Texascavers] 15th ICS - These 17 Caves Need Trip Leaders

[germanyj]

Hello Fellow Cavers:

Have you ever been to one of these Texas caves?? 





 


  
Auld
  Caves

 

 

  
Colorado Bend

 

 

  
Deep/Punkin

 

 

  
Devil's Sinkhole

 

 

  
Echo River

 

 

  
Elmo Wilson

 

 

  
Groundhog?

 

 

  
Honey Creek

 

 

  
Kickapoo

 

 

  
Logan Cave

 

 

  
Longhorn

 

 

  
Palace?

 

 

  
Powells

 

 

  
Robber Baron

 

 

  
Secret

 

 

  
Station C

 

 

  
Valdina Farms

 




Do you want to go to one of these caves?

Maybe your Grotto would like to have a group trip to one of these caves?



Then the International Congress of Speleology wants YOU to volunteer to
lead or help lead at least one field trip to the cave of your choice!


Maps are available and pre-ICS trips are on-going to make sure the caves are 
ready for the big event.


Please choose from this list of 17 caves and let Travis Scott know
which one(s) you want to volunteer to lead/co-lead a trip.? Travis can be 
reached via email: tra...@oztotl.com

REMEMBER: If you volunteer to lead/co-lead a cave trip, you do not have to pay 
for attending that field trip!

Looking forward to seeing you underground during the 15th ICS (19-26 July).

Julia Germany
Trip Leader
Kickapoo Caverns

[ot_caving] Austin Area Cavers - Request for Participation

[Don Cooper]

If you are scratching your head, wondering what to do with yourself today,
please consider dropping by 3017 Burleson Road and assisting us with the big
yard cleanup!
Thanks.
-WaV

Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: [greater_houston_grotto] Cool (on-campus/non-caving) volunteer opportunities at the ICS

[Lyndon Tiu]

germa...@aol.com wrote:
Let this be the beginning of a contest to see how many grottos will be 
represented with ICS volunteers!




We need to clone a few dozen George-Pauls.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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[Texascavers] Fwd: [greater_houston_grotto] Cool (on-campus/non-caving) volunteer opportunities at the ICS

[germanyj]

 The Houston Grotto is gearing
up to bring a bunch of volunteers to the ICS. Below is an email that
was sent out listing non-caving volunteer opportunities.



Let this be the beginning of a contest to see how many grottos will be 
represented with ICS volunteers!



julia

 


 

-Original Message-
From: Lyndon Tiu 
To: greater_houston_gro...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 9:50 am
Subject: [greater_houston_grotto] Cool (on-campus/non-caving) volunteer 
opportunities at the ICS


























Hi guys,



Please find below a list of "On-Campus/Non-Caving" related volunteer 

opportunities at the ICS. I will send the list of "Off-Campus/Caving" 

opportunities in a separate email.



If you wish to help-out, please contact the person whose name and email 

appears below each item. Please do so ASAP. They need your help.



Thank you!



-

1) Facilities Coordinator

Contact: Jon Cradit

ics09...@yahoo.com



All sorts of jobs to get the facilities in order, keep them running 

smoothly and clean up afterwards.



2) Print Salon Coordinator

Contact: Ann Bosted

bos...@earthlink.net



Collect the NSS photo stands from the Florida convention store, then 

deliver to the ICS in Kerrville assemble stands 3 days prior to opening 

so prints can be hung for judging and for final display build more 

stands at the ICS, materials provided.



This job could be handled by one volunteer or divided up among several. 

  The stands can be knocked down to sheets measuring about 4'x8', with 

2"x2" posts for the legs.  They could fit in the back of a large pick-up 

or go in a trailer.



3) Audio-Visual Coordinator

Contact: Rick Corbell

rlcorb...@hotmail.com



Two to three folks to set up band equipment before the Wednesday night 

party (chance to hang with the Terminal Syphons!).



Three to four folks who are familiar with projectors and presentations 

to help us monitor the sessions, debug equipment malfunctions (be a hero 

that saves the presentation) possible need for help setting up audio for 

the banquets.



4) ICS Vendor and Exhibits Coordinator

Contact: Emily Davis

speleobo...@speleobooks.com



Volunteer(s) needed to help set up and check in on vendors.  all day 

prior to Congress volunteer(s)  to touch base with vendors during the 

week, approx. 1 hour per day for extra credit in Heaven, the same person 

  may apply for both tasks!



5) NSS and ICS Banquet Volunteers and Food Tasters

Contact: Linda Palit

lkpa...@sbcglobal.net



NSS Banquet 2-3 hours that Friday, decorating, opening wine!

ICS Banquet 2-3 hours that Saturday, decorating and just helping out



6) Judges for SpeleOlympics

Contact: Bill Stephens

stephen...@yahoo.com



Timer/Judge for Cable Ladder Competition.

Timer/Judge for Obstacle Course Competition.



7) Congress Services

Contact: Joe Ranzau

j...@oztotl.com



Liaison with travel agent. Liaison with hotel staff. These volunteers 

will simply stay in touch with travel agent and hotel staff before 

during and after the Congress to make sure that everything is running 

smoothly. Joe is available to help as needed.



8) Drivers

Contact: Don Arburn

donarb...@mac.com

Drivers, 25 years or older, with a valid standard drivers license for 15 

passenger vans trips throughout the ICS.



9) Translations Committee

Contact: Sherry Graham

shere...@bellsouth.net



Bi or Multi Linguists sought to prepare documents for the website and 

prior to ICS. Super friendly multi linguists to volunteer to wear tags 

during ICS identifying which language(s) you speak and helping visitors 

with questions in that language.



10) Information Desk Coordinator.

Contact: George Veni

gv...@warpdriveonline.com



This person will recruit a team to staff an information desk near ICS 

registration to provide information on the ICS, local sights, and 

amenities. The coordinator need not be from Texas, as long a good, 

knowledgeable (or trainable!) crew is recruited.



11) SpeleoArt Exhibition

Contact: Carolina Shrewsbury

carolina2...@hawaiiflow.com



Volunteers to docent the Salon and Exhibition displays in the Library. 

  Someone needed for 2 hour shifts Mon to Fri:

8:30-10am

10-12am

12-1pm

1-3pm

3-5pm

A perfect air conditioned break!



-- 

Lyndon Tiu



 


  



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>From ki

[Texascavers] Christi Bennett - Need your email address. Please contact me off-list.

[Lyndon Tiu]

Christi Bennett - Need your email address. Please contact me off-list.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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[Texascavers] Keith Huess - Need your email address. Please contact me off-list.

[Lyndon Tiu]

Keith Huess - Need your email address. Please contact me off-list.

--
Lyndon Tiu

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Re: [Texascavers] Kinda hurts my soul

[Ron Miller]

Caves in general are managed much better today than in the past through the 
efforts of the NSS and local caving organizations as well as other 
environmental issues. Native Americans have been concerned about growth and 
expansion since Europeans arrived. It is not likely to stop.

Ron






From: John P. Brooks 
To: Louise Power ; Matt Turner ; 
Texas Cavers 
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 9:30:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Kinda hurts my soul

Re: [Texascavers] Kinda hurts my 
soul Excuse me for sounding like a sour pussbut it is a quarry.AND WHY 
isn’t anyone’s “soul hurting” for the caves that have been and are being 
destroyed by urban sprawl in Central Texas? In my humble opinion; building 
houses, Walmarts, hotels, strip centers AND patronizing those business is a 
much greater sin against nature..and yet I know cavers and other 
environmentalist types who love to live out in those brushy hills...and buy all 
their cheap plastic stuff at Walmartand love to go for a Saturday drive in 
the “country” on freeways that trench a horrid scar across our beautiful 
karst many of us add our little piece of this damage everyday through our 
daily actions. 

It “hurts my soul” that I live this way...and have little choice in the matter.

To complain about a house in a quarry, that some call a cave, seems to me a bit 
inauthentic...and it covers a pain that we all feel when we consider the damage 
being done all around us. If this type of thing offends us, we should be called 
to action. We should be lobbying for “urban growth” boundaries for out cities 
to protect the remaining hill country, before it ALL becomes covered with 
parking lots and fry pits and Walmarts and Big Box retailers. We should being 
saying enough to the everyday excessive use of automobiles AND insist that 
development be SMART. We should support initatives that create walkable, more 
dense cities that have and support mass transit. I could go on.but will 
not. But I do hope that we can all see the “cancer” that we are creatingif 
ones desire is to save caves; one might start by looking at the real 
problemand that is how we use our fragile land everyday.


And excuse me if I sound brash...I woke up with some kind of stomach crud this 
morning...jb



On 2/20/09 5:10 PM, "Louise Power"  wrote:


Why would anybody want to ruin a perfectly good cave with a house? What family 
of 5 needs 17000 sq ft? What happened to all the cave formations? Where does 
their waste go? Does it pollute the ground water? It looks cool, but degrades 
the whole area!
 
I was appalled.
 
When I was in what was then called Yugoslavia, there were people in the Karst 
Mountains living in caves out of necessity, not necessarily because it was 
cool. They also penned up their livestock right there in the entrance. (Where 
is Glade room freshener when you need it?)

 Louise

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:31:07 -0800
From: kat...@yahoo.com
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Kinda hurts my soul

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330306913609&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:1123
 

 
 
Just in case someone wants a cave home in missouri. I'm sure it had low energy 
bills.

 
Matt Turner 


"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without 
accepting it." - Aristotle


"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do 
that."- Norman Vincent Peale 

RE: [Texascavers] Kinda hurts my soul

[bcow911]

Just a quick note. I agree with you Bill. I know of several limestone quarry 
mines that have homes built in the face in one case allied chem has a complete 
house/office built in one in southern Ilinois opposite missouri. There are a 
few homes built in the cliff undercuts as well
 speleoste...@tx.rr.com wrote: 
> I thought I posted this remark earlier today, but I don't see that it 
> succeeded. That does not look like a natural cave to me. Instead, it looks 
> like a limestone quarry, like the one near Milltown, Indiana where a party 
> was held at the NSS convention a couple of years ago.
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
>  Louise Power  wrote: 
> > 
> > Why would anybody want to ruin a perfectly good cave with a house? What 
> > family of 5 needs 17000 sq ft? What happened to all the cave formations? 
> > Where does their waste go? Does it pollute the ground water? It looks cool, 
> > but degrades the whole area!
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I was appalled.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > When I was in what was then called Yugoslavia, there were people in the 
> > Karst Mountains living in caves out of necessity, not necessarily because 
> > it was cool. They also penned up their livestock right there in the 
> > entrance. (Where is Glade room freshener when you need it?)
> > 
> > 
> >  Louise
> > 
> > 
> > Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:31:07 -0800
> > From: kat...@yahoo.com
> > To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> > Subject: [Texascavers] Kinda hurts my soul
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330306913609&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:1123
> >  
> > 
> > Just in case someone wants a cave home in missouri. I'm sure it had low 
> > energy bills.
> > 
> > 
> >  Matt Turner 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought 
> > without accepting it." - Aristotle
> > 
> > 
> > "Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can 
> > do that."- Norman Vincent Peale 
> > 
> 
> 
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