Re: [NMCAVER] NPR pictures/story of Alex's radio test
Story updated with text at: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123116417 ___ NMCAVER mailing list nmca...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/nmcaver_caver.net
[Texascavers] My New Hero
Texting Underground Can Save Lives and Caves www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123116417 Josh
Re: [Texascavers] Calling George Paul from Houston
Yup, I have it. I carpooling with Lyndon do I thought it was his and didn't think twice. Let me know if you want me to ship it to you. Cheers, GP On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 6:21 PM, jack witz wrote: > Hey GP, > > This is Zach and did you find a red and black backpack with a "wounded > warriors" + eagle emblem on it and full of vertical gear in your jeep? If > any other Honeycreek tank haul attendees read this and you have it please > let me know. > > I set it in your jeep before the trip b/c we organized our gear there. My > secondary interest was keeping your beers cool by blocking the sun while we > did the tank haul. After things were cut short I pulled it out and set it > behind your jeep to get my leather gloves. That's the last time I remember > touching it. You left while I was goofing off and I'm just guessing you > tossed it into your jeep. Please if you have it or even if you don't let me > know. > > Contact me via email zachattackoo...@yahoo.com > > Thanks for breakfast and talk to you soon, > Z > > -- George-Paul Richmann (513) 490-3100 gprichm...@gmail.com
Re: [Texascavers] Calling George Paul from Houston
Hey George and Lyndon, Thank you, thank you. It's great to know someone has my stuff instead of the clepto cows. It's really hard to get stuff back from the cows. Are you going to Punkin and Deep next weekend? and are you travelling through San Antonio? If shipping it is easier then my address is Zach Schudrowitz 5303 Keystone SA, TX 78229 home phone 210 326 1217 We can split the cost next time we meet. And if you would please put the solid gold ascender back in there and quick gawking at it. I need it to trade for a golden fleece, which gets me the golden ticket to go see Clash of the Titans. Seriously, thanks man and talk to ya soon. Z --- On Sun, 1/31/10, George-Paul Richmann wrote: From: George-Paul Richmann Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Calling George Paul from Houston To: "jack witz" Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Sunday, January 31, 2010, 9:15 AM Yup, I have it. I carpooling with Lyndon do I thought it was his and didn't think twice. Let me know if you want me to ship it to you. Cheers, GP On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 6:21 PM, jack witz wrote: Hey GP, This is Zach and did you find a red and black backpack with a "wounded warriors" + eagle emblem on it and full of vertical gear in your jeep? If any other Honeycreek tank haul attendees read this and you have it please let me know. I set it in your jeep before the trip b/c we organized our gear there. My secondary interest was keeping your beers cool by blocking the sun while we did the tank haul. After things were cut short I pulled it out and set it behind your jeep to get my leather gloves. That's the last time I remember touching it. You left while I was goofing off and I'm just guessing you tossed it into your jeep. Please if you have it or even if you don't let me know. Contact me via email zachattackoo...@yahoo.com Thanks for breakfast and talk to you soon, Z -- George-Paul Richmann (513) 490-3100 gprichm...@gmail.com
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
Dave said: > I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the > best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek. > > http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$ AGREED Dave said: > 2nd, > > rubber boots that lace up also work well. The laces allow you to > keep the boot tight > around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out of > your boots.Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but > occasionally you > will have to empty out the mud and grit. You could wrap up your ankle with > sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing > non-lace > up rubber boots. > > The recommended boots are called "6 inch polyblend work shoe": > > http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots > > I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek. > > [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ] > > Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so > I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first. They should last you > several years. > AGREED Dave said: > 3rd, > > As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for > going upstream > from the shaft. > > What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ), > > http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm > > and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers > the thighs, butt and chest. That way you can easily move around and > not feel constricted in your suit. This makes it easier to wear > knee-pads and elbow pads. > > http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif > > Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving > overalls, > if you don't get cold easily. > > On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming > section easier, but > I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms. > > I think it important to have a front zipper. Back zippers are not suitable > for > caving. AGREED FOR THE MOST PART. I WEAR A THICK WETSUIT ON THE THROUGH TRIP AND NEVER GET OVERHEATED. AS FAR AS A ZIPPER IN THE BACK, I BOUGHT A SNORKELING WETSUIT AT ACADEMY THAT HAD A ZIPPER IN THE BACK. I HATED IT, SO I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE MOVE IT TO THE FRONT AND I CUT THE LONG SLEEVES OFF AND MADE IT SHORT SLEEVED. NOW I WEAR IT WITH THIN POLYPROS UNDER IT AND IT WORKS GREAT. Dave said: > In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny > sterno can. But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno > WHAT WORKS BETTER, AND MANY HONEY CREEK CAVERS DO THIS, IS TO TAKE A TRASH SACK, A LONG-BURNING CANDLE, AND A CIGARETTER LIGHTER (THE LATTER TWO ITEMS IN A SMALL NALGENE BOTTLE, POKE A HOLE THROUGH THE END OF THE TRASH SACK AND PUT YOUR HEAD THROUGH IT, BEND YOUR KNEES AND PUT YOUR LEGS INSIDE OF THE TRASH SACK, AND PLACE THE CANDLE ON THE FLOOR BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS. Dave said: > As for what to wear on your hands, wear neoprene gloves like what > water-skiers use. The neoprene gloves that divers use are too thick > and will not allow you to maneuver your fingers to do things like take > photos or survey. [ However, the divers gloves work great for > "salamandering," if you are fortunate enough to find a cave where you > can do that. ] NEOPRENE GLOVE ARE EXPENSIVE AND DIE FAST IN A CAVE. USE CAVING GLOVES. YOUR HANDS RARELY GET COLD. Dave said: > If you are the kind of person that gets cold easily in a cave, then > you could stash a sweater > and a hat at the bottom of the shaft in a plastic bag. I DISAGREE ON THE SWEATER, AND INSTEAD RECOMMENT A POLYPRO, CAPILENE, OR SOME OTHER SYNTHETIC LONG UNDERWEAR TOP. YOU CAN EVEN HAVE THEM LOOSE IN YOUR CAVE PACK AND SOAKING WET. WHEN YOU NEED IT, YOU WRING IT OUT, PUT IT ON WET, AND IN A MATTER OF LESS THAN A MINUTE YOU GET OVER THE CHILL AND IT'S WARMING YOU UP. Dave wrote: > > Sounds like fun. I wish I could have been there. > WE'VE RESCHEDULED THE THREE WEEKENDS, DAVE, SO MAYBE YOU CAN. 1) FEB. 13 - DIVE GEAR TAKEN TO THE HS SUMP 2) FEB. 20 - THE DIVE IS DONE AND THE CAVE IS AVAILABLE FOR TOURIST TRIPS 3) FEB. 27 - DIVE GEAR IS BROUGHT OUT OF THE CAVE. LET ME KNOW WHICH TRIP(S) YOU CAN MAKE. BILL > David Locklear > > On 1/30/10, Cristina Estrada wrote: > > Hi to all, I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet > > cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions > > suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less > > stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold. What suggestions do > > you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to > > keep hands, feet warm? How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a > > specific blanket outside t
RE: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
Great advice from all. I'll add a couple of comments from somebody who gets cold easily. I'll often take polypro in ziplocks as extra in my pack for waiting, time when I am eating, or if I get cold. It is fine wet, but I like it dry if I have to put it on. I have even put it on over the wetsuit when sitting for lunch. I often wear silk or polypro underwear under my wet suit. If it is a swimming trip a wet suit that has a farmer john and shortie over-top is nice, but I happen to have one. That is too restrictive for many trips. I always carry a balaclava and will put it on under my helmet when I begin to chill. I think a neoprene hood would work, but I have never had one. Water and food are important. Take enough; the body needs fuel. The trash bag is essential, and often useful in all types of cold caving. Depending on need, I have used construction trash bags or regular large trash bags or leaf bags. For cold camping, remember adequate insulation under the sleeping bag--that also makes a huge difference. Have fun, and stay warm. -Original Message- From: speleoste...@tx.rr.com [mailto:speleoste...@tx.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:27 AM To: David; Cristina Estrada Cc: Cavers Texas Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS Dave said: > I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the > best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek. > > http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$ AGREED Dave said: > 2nd, > > rubber boots that lace up also work well. The laces allow you to > keep the boot tight > around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out of > your boots.Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but > occasionally you > will have to empty out the mud and grit. You could wrap up your ankle with > sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing > non-lace > up rubber boots. > > The recommended boots are called "6 inch polyblend work shoe": > > http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots > > I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek. > > [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ] > > Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so > I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first. They should last you > several years. > AGREED Dave said: > 3rd, > > As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for > going upstream > from the shaft. > > What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ), > > http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm > > and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers > the thighs, butt and chest. That way you can easily move around and > not feel constricted in your suit. This makes it easier to wear > knee-pads and elbow pads. > > http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif > > Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving > overalls, > if you don't get cold easily. > > On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming > section easier, but > I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms. > > I think it important to have a front zipper. Back zippers are not suitable > for > caving. AGREED FOR THE MOST PART. I WEAR A THICK WETSUIT ON THE THROUGH TRIP AND NEVER GET OVERHEATED. AS FAR AS A ZIPPER IN THE BACK, I BOUGHT A SNORKELING WETSUIT AT ACADEMY THAT HAD A ZIPPER IN THE BACK. I HATED IT, SO I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE MOVE IT TO THE FRONT AND I CUT THE LONG SLEEVES OFF AND MADE IT SHORT SLEEVED. NOW I WEAR IT WITH THIN POLYPROS UNDER IT AND IT WORKS GREAT. Dave said: > In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny > sterno can. But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno > WHAT WORKS BETTER, AND MANY HONEY CREEK CAVERS DO THIS, IS TO TAKE A TRASH SACK, A LONG-BURNING CANDLE, AND A CIGARETTER LIGHTER (THE LATTER TWO ITEMS IN A SMALL NALGENE BOTTLE, POKE A HOLE THROUGH THE END OF THE TRASH SACK AND PUT YOUR HEAD THROUGH IT, BEND YOUR KNEES AND PUT YOUR LEGS INSIDE OF THE TRASH SACK, AND PLACE THE CANDLE ON THE FLOOR BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS. Dave said: > As for what to wear on your hands, wear neoprene gloves like what > water-skiers use. The neoprene gloves that divers use are too thick > and will not allow you to maneuver your fingers to do things like take > photos or survey. [ However, the divers gloves work great for > "salamandering," if you are fortunate enough to find a cave where you > can do that. ] NEOPRENE GLOVE ARE EXPENSIVE AND DIE FAST IN A CAVE. USE CAVING GLOVES. YOUR HANDS RARELY GET COLD. Dave said: > If you are the kind of person tha
RE: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
>>I always carry a balaclava and will put it on under my helmet when I begin to chill. << Oh yeah, thanks, I also always carry a balaclava. And I have loaned it to other people too, when it really mattered for their well being. Bill Linda Palit wrote: > Great advice from all. > > I'll add a couple of comments from somebody who gets cold easily. > I'll often take polypro in ziplocks as extra in my pack for waiting, time > when I am eating, or if I get cold. It is fine wet, but I like it dry if I > have to put it on. I have even put it on over the wetsuit when sitting for > lunch. > I often wear silk or polypro underwear under my wet suit. If it is a > swimming trip a wet suit that has a farmer john and shortie over-top is nice, > but I happen to have one. That is too restrictive for many trips. > > I always carry a balaclava and will put it on under my helmet when I begin to > chill. I think a neoprene hood would work, but I have never had one. > > Water and food are important. Take enough; the body needs fuel. > > The trash bag is essential, and often useful in all types of cold caving. > Depending on need, I have used construction trash bags or regular large trash > bags or leaf bags. > > > > For cold camping, remember adequate insulation under the sleeping bag--that > also makes a huge difference. > > Have fun, and stay warm. > > -Original Message- > From: speleoste...@tx.rr.com [mailto:speleoste...@tx.rr.com] > Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:27 AM > To: David; Cristina Estrada > Cc: Cavers Texas > Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS > ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS > > Dave said: > > > I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the > > best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek. > > > > http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$ > > AGREED > > Dave said: > > > 2nd, > > > > rubber boots that lace up also work well. The laces allow you to > > keep the boot tight > > around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out > > of > > your boots.Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but > > occasionally you > > will have to empty out the mud and grit. You could wrap up your ankle with > > sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing > > non-lace > > up rubber boots. > > > > The recommended boots are called "6 inch polyblend work shoe": > > > > http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots > > > > I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek. > > > > [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ] > > > > Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so > > I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first. They should last you > > several years. > > > > AGREED > > Dave said: > > > 3rd, > > > > As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for > > going upstream > > from the shaft. > > > > What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ), > > > > http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm > > > > and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers > > the thighs, butt and chest. That way you can easily move around and > > not feel constricted in your suit. This makes it easier to wear > > knee-pads and elbow pads. > > > > http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif > > > > Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving > > overalls, > > if you don't get cold easily. > > > > On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming > > section easier, but > > I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms. > > > > I think it important to have a front zipper. Back zippers are not > > suitable for > > caving. > > AGREED FOR THE MOST PART. I WEAR A THICK WETSUIT ON THE THROUGH TRIP AND > NEVER GET > OVERHEATED. AS FAR AS A ZIPPER IN THE BACK, I BOUGHT A SNORKELING WETSUIT AT > ACADEMY > THAT HAD A ZIPPER IN THE BACK. I HATED IT, SO I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE MOVE IT > TO THE > FRONT AND I CUT THE LONG SLEEVES OFF AND MADE IT SHORT SLEEVED. NOW I WEAR IT > WITH > THIN POLYPROS UNDER IT AND IT WORKS GREAT. > > Dave said: > > > In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny > > sterno can. But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno > > > > WHAT WORKS BETTER, AND MANY HONEY CREEK CAVERS DO THIS, IS TO TAKE A TRASH > SACK, > A LONG-BURNING CANDLE, AND A CIGARETTER LIGHTER (THE LATTER TWO ITEMS IN A > SMALL > NALGENE BOTTLE, POKE A HOLE THROUGH THE END OF THE TRASH SACK AND PUT YOUR > HEAD > THROUGH IT, BEND YOUR KNEES AND PUT YOUR LEGS INSIDE OF THE TRASH SACK, AND > PLACE > THE CANDLE ON THE FLOOR BETWEEN YOUR TH
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
To build in a little perspective, after caving in the NE for a while, the balaclava and trash bag, as well as the thermos, are essentials. A nice little trick is to keep the trash bag folded inside the helmet - dry, accessible, and out of the way from heavier gear. Otherwise, we usually double-sock, with neoprene and wool - which seems to work well enough. The best thing, though, is to keep moving. The water and wind steal body heat quickly, and make for a quick cooldown. Cheers, --Dave On Jan 31, 2010, at 11:43 AM, Linda Palit wrote: Great advice from all. I'll add a couple of comments from somebody who gets cold easily. I'll often take polypro in ziplocks as extra in my pack for waiting, time when I am eating, or if I get cold. It is fine wet, but I like it dry if I have to put it on. I have even put it on over the wetsuit when sitting for lunch. I often wear silk or polypro underwear under my wet suit. If it is a swimming trip a wet suit that has a farmer john and shortie over- top is nice, but I happen to have one. That is too restrictive for many trips. I always carry a balaclava and will put it on under my helmet when I begin to chill. I think a neoprene hood would work, but I have never had one. Water and food are important. Take enough; the body needs fuel. The trash bag is essential, and often useful in all types of cold caving. Depending on need, I have used construction trash bags or regular large trash bags or leaf bags. For cold camping, remember adequate insulation under the sleeping bag--that also makes a huge difference. Have fun, and stay warm. -Original Message- From: speleoste...@tx.rr.com [mailto:speleoste...@tx.rr.com] Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:27 AM To: David; Cristina Estrada Cc: Cavers Texas Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS Dave said: I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek. http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$ AGREED Dave said: 2nd, rubber boots that lace up also work well. The laces allow you to keep the boot tight around your ankle to protect from sprains and also to keep mud and grit out of your boots.Rubber boots that don't lace up will also work, but occasionally you will have to empty out the mud and grit. You could wrap up your ankle with sports tape prior to putting on the neoprene bootie if you are wearing non-lace up rubber boots. The recommended boots are called "6 inch polyblend work shoe": http://www.gemplers.com/product/127507/Lace-up-6-PVC-Plain-Toe-Boots I think every Honeycreek caver agrees these are suitable for Honeycreek. [ I believe that the Onguard brand is less expensive than the Bata brand ] Better boots are available, but just harder to find and more expensive, so I would recommend you try these $ 25 ones first. They should last you several years. AGREED Dave said: 3rd, As for 6 mil wetsuit, I think everybody will say that is too thick for going upstream from the shaft. What you could do is wear a thin snorkling suit ( 1 mm or less ), http://www.tommydsports.com/products/pages/8802.htm and then put a 2 mm farmer john type wetsuit over it, that only covers the thighs, butt and chest. That way you can easily move around and not feel constricted in your suit. This makes it easier to wear knee-pads and elbow pads. http://www.onlinescuba.com/eshop/products/b_neosport-s536mf.gif Or you could wear the 1mm snorkeling suit under a pair of nylon caving overalls, if you don't get cold easily. On a thru-trip, a 6 mm wet-suit would help you float the swimming section easier, but I think fat cavers will say 6 mm is too thick, especially on the arms. I think it important to have a front zipper. Back zippers are not suitable for caving. AGREED FOR THE MOST PART. I WEAR A THICK WETSUIT ON THE THROUGH TRIP AND NEVER GET OVERHEATED. AS FAR AS A ZIPPER IN THE BACK, I BOUGHT A SNORKELING WETSUIT AT ACADEMY THAT HAD A ZIPPER IN THE BACK. I HATED IT, SO I HAD A FRIEND OF MINE MOVE IT TO THE FRONT AND I CUT THE LONG SLEEVES OFF AND MADE IT SHORT SLEEVED. NOW I WEAR IT WITH THIN POLYPROS UNDER IT AND IT WORKS GREAT. Dave said: In some cold caves, you could warm up while sitting around a tiny sterno can. But I don't know if cavers do that in Honeycreek. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno WHAT WORKS BETTER, AND MANY HONEY CREEK CAVERS DO THIS, IS TO TAKE A TRASH SACK, A LONG-BURNING CANDLE, AND A CIGARETTER LIGHTER (THE LATTER TWO ITEMS IN A SMALL NALGENE BOTTLE, POKE A HOLE THROUGH THE END OF THE TRASH SACK AND PUT YOUR HEAD THROUGH IT, BEND YOUR KNEES AND PUT YOUR LEGS INSIDE OF THE TRASH SACK, AND PLACE THE CANDLE ON THE FLOOR BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS. Dave said: As for what to wea
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS
Good point on the suggestion to double sock. On long wet trips my feet become sensitive to the wool, so I slip on a very thin nylon "liner" sock first, then the wool, and finally the neoprene sock. I usually buy the neoprene sock a size larger than usual to easily accommodate the liner and wool, if in doubt take the sock(s) you plan to wear to the store (Academy, etc.) and layer away as you would at the cave entrance. Be aware that the nylon sock is not the kind most often worn by divers using adjustable strap fins, it has to fit in the boot so the rubber sole "booties" are not what you want. --- On Sun, 1/31/10, Dave H. Crusoe wrote: > ... we usually double-sock, with neoprene and wool - > which seems to work well enough. > - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Rancho Diana Karst Survey Project
If you aren't participating in one of the other fine caving events next weekend, but still want to get out and do something, you can join in the Rancho Diana Karst Survey project. This project is an ongoing survey of 1300 acres in northwest Bexar County owned by the City of San Antonio. There are known caves that need to be surveyed and lots of land to ridgewalk. The project began last fall and this Sat., Feb 6 is the next scheduled date. If you are interested or want more details, contact me off list. Thanks, Joe Mitchell 210-859-2105 joemitch...@satx.rr.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival
I won't try to compete with all the detail that David wrote about what to wear, but here are a few comments that might help to answer some of your questions.Flooding hazard:The bad news is that Honey Creek Cave certainly can flood enough to be dangerous. In some sections, especially in certain parts of the through trip route, there is very little air space (as little as a few inches in some places) above the normal water level, so a small rise in water level can leave no breathing room at all in these critical locations. The good news, however, is that the water levels in Honey Creek usually do not rise very quickly. The cave has lots of natural dams in its stream passages, so in most areas, the normal water level is determined by the height of the next dam downstream. Whenever the water flow rate increases (because of rain upstream), more water flows over the dam such that a large increase in flow rate causes only a small increase in water depth behind the dam. Caution should be used in wet weather. The cavers who organize Honey Creek trips should be familiar enough with the conditions there to know when to postpone or cancel a trip due to hazardous weather.Keeping warm inside the cave:Temperature inside the cave should be practically the same any time of year, regardless of the outside temperature, except, of course, when you are very near an entrance. One advantage of cold weather, however, is that you are less likely to encounter "bad air" inside the cave in winter than you are in summer. The main disadvantage of cold weather is what it can do to you outside the cave, not inside, but I'll address that later.What you'll need to keep warm inside the cave will depend largely on where you go and what you do in the cave. If you do the through trip, you most likely will spend most of your time swimming or wading such that your entire body, except for your head, will be under water. For this, you will want a full wetsuit and fins, similar to those used by SCUBA divers. Since you will spend most of your time swimming with fins, you will want to wear wetsuit booties suitable for use with fins. These should have soles thick enough so that you can comfortably walk, climb, and/or crawl short distances over rocks and dry ground but, unlike caving boots, they should be thin enough to be worn with swim fins. The fins used for Honey Creek through trips are like those used for SCUBA, but it is preferable to use "floaters" instead of "sinkers" so that you are less likely to lose a fin if you accidently drop it in deep muddy water. Most SCUBA fins are designed to be almost neutrally buoyant, but some will slowly sink while others will slowly float to the surface when dropped in water. In my experience, white fins are more likely to float and black fins are more likely to sink, but it depends on the specific brand and model of fin, and the people who sell them usually don't know the sinkers from the floaters, because most SCUBA divers don't care. When I bought fins for use in Honey Creek a number of years ago, I went to a SCUBA shop with a pool in their back room, and the salesman tested various fins by placing them in the pool until we found some that didn't sink. For the through trip, you also will want some sort of floatation device to make prolonged swimming easier. One way to do this is to carry a cave pack large enough to contain a couple of large empty (air filled) soft drink bottles, which will cause your pack to float. You swim belly down with your arms over your floating pack and with your legs moving the fins behind you. During a through trip, you are not likely to sit still very long unless you stop to eat, so exercise will help to keep you warm most of the time.Other types of Honey Creek trips, however, can involve different conditions. For example, some of the upstream areas and side passages have mostly shallow water and mud where you will have little or no use for fins and will have to walk, wade, crawl, and/or salamander most of the time instead of swimming. In this case, you might not carry fins and might not care about adding floatation to your pack beyond whatever is needed to prevent the pack from sinking if accidentally dropped. For these conditions, you might want to wear boots like those David recommended, along with some socks that will keep your feet warm when wet. Neoprene socks (which differ from wetsuit booties in that they don't have thick soles) are best, but you'll need boots larger than what you normally wear to allow for the thickness of neoprene socks. Your upper body might be out of the water much of the time, so full wetsuit covering of the upper body is less essential. You might tend to get uncomfortably warm from exercise while actively moving through the passages but then get uncomfortably cold while surveying or otherwise do things that involve less exercise. You might prefer to wear a wetsuit bottom or farmer john style wetsuit, combined with upper body clothing you can adjust for
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival
Hola Cristina, The Honey Creek Cave tank haul was aborted yesterday. Twenty-five people went down the shaft entrance and started going upstream. The water was the highest I've ever seen it and the current was strong. An hour into the cave it was sumped, and besides, people were already feeling a little tired from fighting the strong current. We aborted the trip then. Kurt Menking and I thought that the water was ever higher on the way out than on the way in, so it might have been rising while we were in the cave, and of course that's dangerous. You have been in the cave and to the HS Sump, so the answsers to your questions are simple. The cave is exactly the same whether it's hot or cold outside, with the one exception that when it's hot outside the air can be of a lesser quality in the cave. Here's what you do when you come out of the cave and it's cold outside: You go straight you vehicle, you take off your wetsuit, you dry yourself thorougly with a towel, and you get dressed in dry, warm clothes. And you do that as fast as you can. What affects people more caving in the winter is that they don't have a warm enough sleeping bag. What works well is to either have a fleece sleeping bag that you put inside of your regular one and get inside of the both (we got our fleece sleeping bags at Walmart for $10 each about 5 years ago, and use them as our sleeping bags in the Texas summer) or you have two sleeping bags and put one inside the other. You should also wear long underwear at night to help you stay warm. I will address your gear issues when I comment on what Dave Locklear had to say about your questions. NOTE: The three weekends in a row plan at Honey Creek Cave has been rescheduled to: Weekend 1 - Feb. 13 - dive gear is taken into the cave and left Weekend 2 - Feb. 20 - the dive is done and people can take tourists trips in the cave Weekend 3 - Feb. 27 - dive is it brought out of the cave. Regards, Bill Cristina Estrada wrote: > Hi to all, I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet > cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions > suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less > stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold. What suggestions do > you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to > keep hands, feet warm? How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a > specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself > immediatly? > > Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining? > > Thanks for your advice, > Cristina Estrada - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival
>>>suggestions do you have to keep warm inside the cave? Do you chill easily? 6 mm might be a little much for the whole body but if you chill easily you may want that much on your torso. If you are going on the tank hall then I don't think you will have to worry about getting cold while in the cave as you will be moving and that will keep you warm. When you stop to rest or for lunch make sure you are as far out of the water as you can be. If you start to chill then you need to start moving around best way to warm back up. I always used neoprene socks or booties for my feet (inside your boots) and I also had a variety of gloves that I tried. The best gloves were a neoprene diving glove but they were expensive and they didn't hold up well to the kind of caving you have to do in Honey Creek. Here again when you are on the move the hands and feet stay warm. >>>Should you have a specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you >>>wrapped yourself immediatly? The first thing you do when you get out of the cave is to get out of the wetsuit and dry yourself off. Get into some warm dry clothes and then wrap yourself in a blanket if your still cold. >>>Is it safe to cave when is raining? Not if they are anticipating a lot of rain. Honey Creek can rise. Have a good trip, I've spent many hours in Honey Creek, I hope you enjoy it. Mary TZ From: Cristina Estrada To: Cavers Texas Sent: Sat, January 30, 2010 8:34:29 PM Subject: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival Hi to all, I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold. What suggestions do you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to keep hands, feet warm? How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself immediatly? Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining? Thanks for your advice, Cristina Estrada
Re: [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival
Thanks a lot to all of you for all your comments, they're very detailed and they're greatly appreciated. I've already been in honey creek cave in the grand finale and a tank haul, but they were not during very cold weather (I'm from a hot weather place, so 40 F is very cold for me), that's why I wanted to konow what type of gear should I get. Because of all the good advice over here, now I have a very good idea and I'll prepare accordingly. I'll go to the second and third trips. Now that they're postponed, it gives me more time to prepare and the weather to get warmer!! Best regards, Cristina Estrada On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Mary Thiesse wrote: > >>>suggestions do you have to keep warm inside the cave? > > Do you chill easily? 6 mm might be a little much for the whole body but if > you chill easily you may want that much on your torso. If you are going on > the tank hall then I don't think you will have to worry about getting cold > while in the cave as you will be moving and that will keep you warm. When > you stop to rest or for lunch make sure you are as far out of the water as > you can be. If you start to chill then you need to start moving around best > way to warm back up. I always used neoprene socks or booties for my feet > (inside your boots) and I also had a variety of gloves that I tried. The > best gloves were a neoprene diving glove but they were expensive and they > didn't hold up well to the kind of caving you have to do in Honey Creek. > Here again when you are on the move the hands and feet stay warm. > > >>>Should you have a specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out > you wrapped yourself immediatly? > > The first thing you do when you get out of the cave is to get out of the > wetsuit and dry yourself off. Get into some warm dry clothes and then wrap > yourself in a blanket if your still cold. > > >>>Is it safe to cave when is raining? > > Not if they are anticipating a lot of rain. Honey Creek can rise. > > Have a good trip, I've spent many hours in Honey Creek, I hope you enjoy > it. > > Mary TZ > > > > -- > *From:* Cristina Estrada > *To:* Cavers Texas > *Sent:* Sat, January 30, 2010 8:34:29 PM > > *Subject:* [Texascavers] Cold weather tips of cave survival > > Hi to all, I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet > cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions > suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less > stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold. What suggestions do > you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to > keep hands, feet warm? How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a > specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself > immediatly? > > Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining? > > Thanks for your advice, > Cristina Estrada >
[Texascavers] Re: Cold weather tips of cave survival
Cristina said: >I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions suggest 60's/40's. Lots of good advice has been posted for staying warm in Honey Creek. If you have access to back issues of the NSS News, Jonathan Wilson and I wrote an article called "Wet & Wild Underground: Wet Caving Techniques" in the November, 2003 issue, p. 320-1. That was based largely on our experiences in Honey Creek. As temperatures go, getting out of Honey Creek in 40-degree weather shouldn't be too bad. The worst I can remember was a trip when we came out and it was 19 degrees in an ice storm. The rope was covered with ice at the lip of the shaft due to the warm moist air rising up and then freezing when it hit outside. At least it wasn't sucking in. Ours was the only trip that day, so there was no one on the surface, so no fire to warm up by. I was too cold to change in the freezing rain, so I just drove home in my wetsuit. I had to have the defroster heat on high to keep a spot on the windshield clear enough to see out of, but I was so hot in my wetsuit that I also had my window open. That was a weird night, with black ice on the highways and cars sliding off right and left. I drove back to Driftwood at about 30 miles an hour in 4WD, hoping no one would careen into me. Mark Minton You may reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] rubber caving boots - more info
Here is a web-site that claims their rubber caving boots are on sale for $ 24.55 http://www.safetekusa.com/Polyblend-Boots-P491.aspx Here are some other boots in the same category: http://www.westernsafety.com/northfootprotection/norcrosspg29-71304.jpg The one above is called "Black Servus Iron Duke," #73104 http://www.westernsafety.com/northfootprotection/norcrosspg29-R1141.jpg The one above is called "Black Ranger 5-Eyelet Safety Work Shoe," #R1141 Here is another brand: http://www.safetysourceinc.com/GroupInfo/GroupID/1119455450 You can possibly find a distributor near you, if you don't want to order them on-line. As Rod Goke mentioned in his post, you need to order them 1/2" loose, so that you can wear neoprene socks, or a layer of 2 socks. Here is a link to more info: http://technology.darkfrontier.us/Wearing/Boots/ If you want the best boots available, the French claim to have them. http://www.etchesecurite.com/products/45/mic_canyon_shoes.html A well-known caver has been a distributor for these boots for many years. U.S. caver's call them "Joop Boots," named after the distributor. He will custom fit them to your feet. The best way to contact him is probably Facebook at: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1581704107&ref=search&sid=1818118612.148009812..1 I bumped into him at an NSS Convention 2 or 3 years ago, and it seemed he was still doing this. David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] rubber caving boots - more info
David Locklear said: >Here is a web-site that claims their rubber caving boots are on sale for $ 24.55 >http://www.safetekusa.com/Polyblend-Boots-P491.aspx Those appear to be the steel-toed variety. I recommend against steel-toed rubber boots for caving because the steel toe causes excessive wear of the rubber. A hole develops and the steel toe cap ends up falling out. There is really no need for steel-toed boots in normal caving. They're also heavier and generally more expensive than the non-steel-toed variety. Bata also makes a non-steel-toed variety. >If you want the best boots available, the French claim to have them. >http://www.etchesecurite.com/products/45/mic_canyon_shoes.html >A well-known caver has been a distributor for these boots for many years. >U.S. caver's call them "Joop Boots," named after the distributor. I have been using "Joop boots" for several years now. They are good, but they do not last very well. The rubber seems especially prone to tearing, either at the top of the boot or at the eyelets. I have decided not to replace my current pair and to go back to Bata-style boots. The main advantage of the French boots is their better sole, but at $65 per pair it doesn't seem worth it. Mark Minton You may reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] rubber caving boots - more info
David, Nice resources. Anyone still use the 'Nam jungle boots? Seem to be hard to find nowdays. ~F~ > Here is a web-site that claims their rubber caving boots are on sale > for > > $ 24.55 > > http://www.safetekusa.com/Polyblend-Boots-P491.aspx > > > Here are some other boots in the same category: > > http://www.westernsafety.com/northfootprotection/norcrosspg29-713 > 04.jpg > > The one above is called "Black Servus Iron Duke," #73104 > > http://www.westernsafety.com/northfootprotection/norcrosspg29-R11 > 41.jpg > > The one above is called "Black Ranger 5-Eyelet Safety Work Shoe," > #R1141 > > Here is another brand: > > http://www.safetysourceinc.com/GroupInfo/GroupID/1119455450 > > > You can possibly find a distributor near you, if you don't want to > order them on-line. > > As Rod Goke mentioned in his post, you need to order them 1/2" loose, > so that you can wear neoprene socks, or a layer of 2 socks. > > Here is a link to more info: > > http://technology.darkfrontier.us/Wearing/Boots/ > > If you want the best boots available, the French claim to have them. > > http://www.etchesecurite.com/products/45/mic_canyon_shoes.html > > A well-known caver has been a distributor for these boots for many > years. U.S. caver's call them "Joop Boots," named after the > distributor. He will custom fit them to your feet. The best way to > contact him is probably Facebook at: > > http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1581704107&ref=search&sid=18181 > 18612.148009812..1 > > I bumped into him at an NSS Convention 2 or 3 years ago, and it seemed > he was still doing this. > > David Locklear > > - > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: > texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, > e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] rubber caving boots - more info
I use them, not in Honey Creek though. I really like the sole's grip for climbing, much better than my Vasque's. The drains are nice for wet jungle river crossings. Don's iPhone. On Jan 31, 2010, at 8:22 PM, wa5...@peoplepc.com wrote: David, Nice resources. Anyone still use the 'Nam jungle boots? Seem to be hard to find nowdays. ~F~ Here is a web-site that claims their rubber caving boots are on sale for $ 24.55 http://www.safetekusa.com/Polyblend-Boots-P491.aspx Here are some other boots in the same category: http://www.westernsafety.com/northfootprotection/norcrosspg29-713 04.jpg The one above is called "Black Servus Iron Duke," #73104 http://www.westernsafety.com/northfootprotection/norcrosspg29-R11 41.jpg The one above is called "Black Ranger 5-Eyelet Safety Work Shoe," #R1141 Here is another brand: http://www.safetysourceinc.com/GroupInfo/GroupID/1119455450 You can possibly find a distributor near you, if you don't want to order them on-line. As Rod Goke mentioned in his post, you need to order them 1/2" loose, so that you can wear neoprene socks, or a layer of 2 socks. Here is a link to more info: http://technology.darkfrontier.us/Wearing/Boots/ If you want the best boots available, the French claim to have them. http://www.etchesecurite.com/products/45/mic_canyon_shoes.html A well-known caver has been a distributor for these boots for many years. U.S. caver's call them "Joop Boots," named after the distributor. He will custom fit them to your feet. The best way to contact him is probably Facebook at: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php? id=1581704107&ref=search&sid=18181 18612.148009812..1 I bumped into him at an NSS Convention 2 or 3 years ago, and it seemed he was still doing this. David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] re: rubber caving boots
Like Mark Minton said, look for the caving boots that say "plain toe." After surfing the web, I kept finding them cheaper and cheaper. Here is the best deal so far: http://www.utilitysafeguard.com/Safety/Boots/Onguard-Work-Boots/86103-Polyblend-6/ Note: if you can find 4 other cavers to buy the same size they are only $ 18.52. Even better, find 12 cavers that are your size and the price is only $ 17.93. # 86103 is their plain toe model number. ( Anyone want a size 13 ? ) I didn't see anything on e-Bay. - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Epic Honey Creek Cave trips rescheduled
Yesterday 25 cavers went into Honey Creek Cave via the shaft entrance. The water in the cave was higher than expected, and we encountered a strong current, which tired people out as we went upstream. Just beyond the Bifurcation the cave was sumped. We aborted the trip then. The rescheduled three weekends in a row are now: 1) Feb. 13 - dive gear goes into the cave to the HS Sump, six hours travel from the shaft entrance, and is left there. 2) Feb. 20 - the dive is done by Jean "Creature" Krecja and James Brown, and the cave is available for tourist trips 3) Feb. 27 - dive gear comes out of the cave. I have the following list of people for the Feb. 13 weekend already. Anyone interested in the being part of the epic Feb. 27th trip, please send me an e-mail. February 13, 2010 1. Barry Adelman 2. Sandi Calhoun 3. Nathan Dennis 4. Christina Estrada 5. Will Harris 6. Ben Hutchins 7. Ed Goff 8. Jay Jorden 9. Edwin Lehr 10. Kurt Menking 11. Ryan Monjaras 12. Dave Moore 13. Michael Pugliese 14. Bill Steele 15. Ben Tobin 16. Diana Tomchick 17. Heather Tucek 18. Jesse Walker jwalker...@hotmail.com 19. Steve Webb 20 – 23. Drew Wendeborn and three other Aggies Bill Steele Irving, Texas - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] underground texting
That's a very clever idea. The range of the device is not so striking. It's been known for years that you can get a great range in those ultra-low-frequency magnetic-induction cave radios by using large antennas. Cave radios used for location purposes usually have more limited range because it is not easy to carry and accurately level a six-foot-diameter underground antenna. However, even back in the sixties the mine-rescue people had transmitters that could be picked up from a helicopter, using very large transmitting antennas made by trapped miners wrapping wire around a mine pillar. What is really interesting is the text-messaging idea. Text messages require only a very low data rate, much lower than voice and comparable to Morse code, so they'll work fine with a very weak or noisy signal. Of course there's more electronics involved in sending and receiving text messages than sending and receiving code, but those familiar with the state of the art can probably figure out how to do it using text-capable phones for keyboard and display. And how many cavers know how to text compared to the number who know Morse code? Anyway, congratulations to Alex Kendrick. -- Mixon A bore is a person who talks when you wish him to listen. You may "reply" to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Re: underground texting
I found his science fair project fascinating. Back in 2004 or 2005, there was a post on Cavetex about beaming data from the bottom of a surface pit up to the base-camp.I think the article suggested that a new technology like Bluetooth would emerge.The idea didn't have any merit at that time, partly because there didn't seem to be a practical reason for it. But with text messaging, cavers can adopt a new set of standard speleo-texting language ( STL ): like stalgmt, stalctit, H2O, gwno, freatic, vedoz, CaCO3, CO2, falt, etc. For example, the 1st responder could relay a message to the surface: "vktim slippd n gwno, & trippd ovr stalgmt & hit hed on stalctit, landed on bum & slid dwn flwston, & fell n H20, & washd dwnstrm ovr falls. Brok bth ankls. Need strtchr team & rope! Heez hypothrmk & hed bleedn " The rescue team on the surface would get the following message: "ktim slppdngwno, & trpp vrtalgmt & ht talctit, lad onum & sldn flston, & fll n H0, & wsd dnstm or flls. Bok th akls. Ned trchr eam & ope! eez ypothrm & ed ledn" But they might be able to decipher part of that. Also, I wonder if the first cavers on Mars will use part of his idea for communication? Maybe he can get a NASA contract? Is there a potential market for an Portable Underground Texting System ( PUTS )? Which caves would this work best in? the remote areas of Jewel Cave or Wind Cave, or long sections of a lava tube ?Any particular Texas cave where this might be handy? The back of Airman's cave? David Locklear - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Re: underground texting
I'm pretty sure that this is not a safe practice. I'm gonna write my congressman as soon as I'm through here and suggest that he initiate legislation banning texting whilst caving. --Ediger On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 2:06 PM, David wrote: > I found his science fair project fascinating. > > Back in 2004 or 2005, there was a post on Cavetex about beaming data from > the bottom of a surface pit up to the base-camp.I think the > article suggested that > a new technology like Bluetooth would emerge.The idea didn't have any > merit at that time, partly because there didn't seem to be a practical > reason > for it. > > But with text messaging, cavers can adopt a new set of standard > speleo-texting > language ( STL ): like stalgmt, stalctit, H2O, gwno, freatic, vedoz, CaCO3, > CO2, falt, etc. > > For example, the 1st responder could relay a message to the surface: > > "vktim slippd n gwno, & trippd ovr stalgmt & hit hed on stalctit, > landed on bum & > slid dwn flwston, & fell n H20, & washd dwnstrm ovr falls. Brok bth ankls. > Need strtchr team & rope! Heez hypothrmk & hed bleedn " > > The rescue team on the surface would get the following message: > > "ktim slppdngwno, & trpp vrtalgmt & ht talctit, lad onum & > sldn flston, & fll n H0, & wsd dnstm or flls. Bok th akls. > Ned trchr eam & ope! eez ypothrm & ed ledn" > > But they might be able to decipher part of that. > > Also, > > I wonder if the first cavers on Mars will use part of his > idea for communication? Maybe he can get a NASA > contract? > > Is there a potential market for an Portable Underground > Texting System ( PUTS )? > > Which caves would this work best in? the remote areas > of Jewel Cave or Wind Cave, or long sections of a lava tube > ?Any particular Texas cave where this might be handy? > The back of Airman's cave? > > David Locklear > > - > Visit our website: http://texascavers.com > To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com > For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com > >
[Texascavers] Vermont NSS Convention info
Have any Texas cavers out there decided yet if they are going to the NSS Convention? It will be similar to the Maine convention. Right? I just checked on plane prices at CheapOair.com and for just $ 312 plus fees, you can get a round trip ticket that will fly you near the convention, airport code "BTV." It looked like many of the flights had a 3 1/2 hour layover somewhere. Cleveland was a common stop. Continental was the cheapest followed by United.American Airlines was the most expensive. One United flight ( out of Houston ), had a 45 minute layover in Washington DC. with a total flight time of only 5 hours 13 minutes. Here is some important flight information: http://www.burlingtonintlairport.com/ The only non-stop flight I could find, was Air Canada from Houston to Montreal. Things to do in the area: Take the ferry from Burlington to Fort Kent across Lake Champlain http://www.ferries.com/gfx/header_wallpapers.jpg Here is some hiking info: http://www.vtliving.com/hiking/burl.shtml Vermont has some scenic waterfalls near the convention: http://www.milebymile.com/hwy_item_images/photo_US_VT_100_13275_1982.jpg http://www.flickr.com/photos/d-no/3544707549/ There is some rafting fun to be found in Vermont: http://www.stoneboatfarm.com/pictures/rafting_west_river.jpg I almost forgot. There is a cave in Vermont: http://vermontcavers.org/images/stories/cavingpics/persev-3.jpg Seriously, there is fun caving going on in Vermont: http://www.bostongrotto.org/Grotto/pix/Wortley/morrie_at_morris_entrance.jpg I want to go, but it is going to be difficult to make it this year. I can see spending a $ 1,000 easily on week long trip to Vermont, for just myself. If I do go, I want to go on a scenic drive, like to Ausable Chasm in New York, which doesn't look too far away. http://buckeyes.smugmug.com/Landscapes/Eastern-US/Ausable-Chasm/3088671_faCW8/1/168701542_mRVuv/Large David Locklear NSS # 27639 Ref: http://www.nss2010.com/caving.php http://www.cheapoair.com Here is a map of the area: http://www.vermontproperty.com/areamap.php?map=northwestvermont - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
texascavers Digest 31 Jan 2010 16:51:30 -0000 Issue 959
texascavers Digest 31 Jan 2010 16:51:30 - Issue 959 Topics (messages 13471 through 13485): Re: Sonora Butterfly 13471 by: Brian Vauter Cold weather tips of cave survival 13472 by: Cristina Estrada 13474 by: David 13477 by: Rod Goke 13479 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com 13480 by: Mary Thiesse 13483 by: Cristina Estrada Sonora Butterfly guide guide talk 13473 by: William H. Russell My New Hero 13475 by: Josh Rubinstein Re: Calling George Paul from Houston 13476 by: George-Paul Richmann underground texting 13478 by: Mixon Bill Re: Cold weather tips of cave survival - MY COMMMENTS ABOUT DAVE'S COMMENTS 13481 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com 13484 by: Linda Palit 13485 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com Epic Honey Creek Cave trips rescheduled 13482 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: To post to the list, e-mail: -- --- Begin Message --- Going back to what the guide was "reported" to have said, the "quartz" comment is something I have heard from many guides at many caves. It's a prevalent guide "info-virus." I suspect it's a mis-hearing of the word "coarse" in describing crystals. I heard this same thing a number of years ago from a guide at Inner Space and was curious where they got their info. The guide, when asked, said the formations were made of quartz because the crystals were so big and they sparkled. I asked, "you mean 'coarse,' like big or rough?" And she said, "yes. The crystals are big or quartz." Our guides starting out will often make the same mistake. And I've also heard it at Sonora. How does this stuff get started? The best I can guess is that guides go and visit other caves, hear what other guides say, and incorporate that into their own tours. This is why I call such things info-viruses. And once a guide gets "infected," they will often spread that mis-information to other guides at their cave. A good example of a prevalent info-virus was one that traveled around Texas guides about 20 years ago. It went something like this: "long ago" there was an electrical fire in [insert cave name here]. After [X] number of [days/weeks/months], the smoke was smelled in this cave we're in now [or insert another commercial cave name that's even further away]. This proves that all the caves in Texas are connected by tiny holes and passages which allowed the smoke to travel that distance. When I first started as a guide back in high school, I had heard this very story from the guide who was training me at the time. He said that he had heard it from a guide at Sonora. Not knowing any better, I used that same story on my tours. It always got a good response. A couple of years later, we did a trip to other commercial caves and we heard it at Wonder World and also at Inner Space. The Inner Space guide said he had heard it from a tour at NBC. The last time I heard this tale was around 1995, and it was at Longhorn. But I never heard it after that. So I suppose somewhat similar to an actual virus, it takes time to run through a population and eventually dies out - or the population dies off (in this case quits) and the virus dies out. Please don't go and tell a guide this story ... like polio, it's a good thing this one is gone! The "going blind after [x] number of [days/weeks/months] of total darkness" is another good example, and this is what I would consider as the longest lasting guide mistakes. I heard it when I started at NBC, used it until I found out otherwise, and I still hear it from time to time. It's a hard one to kill. Brian --- End Message --- --- Begin Message --- Hi to all, I'll go to Honey creek cave next weeks. This is my first wet cave in cold weather conditions. I checked, and the weather conditions suggest 60's/40's. I assumme the temperature inside the cave is more or less stable during the year, but still it's gonna be cold. What suggestions do you have to keep warm inside the cave? Should I wear a 6 mil wetsuit? How to keep hands, feet warm? How to avoid getting a cold? Should you have a specific blanket outside the cave so when you get out you wrapped yourself immediatly? Also they predict some rain. Is it safe to cave when is raining? Thanks for your advice, Cristina Estrada --- End Message --- --- Begin Message --- I will try to answer part of Cristina's question. I think different cavers are going to answer the question differently, especially ones that have done Honeycreek in the wintertime many times. First, I think everybody will agree that neoprene socks on your feet are the best thing you can have on your feet in a wet cave like Honeycreek. http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_831192_imageset_01?$main-Large$ 2nd, rubber boots that lace up also work well. The laces a
