[DFWgrotto] Fwd: CM cave trip reminder
More info about the Eisenhour Ranch caving trip. Diana Begin forwarded message: This is the biggest caver outing between TSA and TCR! All grottos are invited. Hopefully my grotto contacts have spread the word about the C My Shovel trip weekend of June 9. I’ll post complete details tonight. Please coordinate your rsvp with your grotto trip contact, who will contact me. Primitive camping is available Friday and Saturday nights. CM is located near Honey Creek Cave and is both water and vertical. (must be vertically competent – there is no tractor here) You must have your own gear and wet suit. No fins or boogie boards are needed, only sturdy cave boots. There is very little swimming and the trip should last about 2.5 hours, not including in and out. There is ridge walking and I’ve been told lots of little caves for those who don’t want to go in CM. If we get around 40 cavers there will be BBQ provided Saturday night in which we will pass the hat for payment. Thanks and see you there! [_signature] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R. Tomchick Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of Biochemistry 5323 Harry Hines Blvd. Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edumailto:diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu 214-645-6383 (phone) 214-645-6353 (fax) UT Southwestern Medical Center The future of medicine, today. ___ DFWgrotto mailing list dfwgro...@dfwgrotto.org http://dfwgrotto.org/mailman/listinfo/dfwgrotto_dfwgrotto.org
[Texascavers] TSA Members List
We will be publishing the TSA members list soon. We plan to email it out to active members. Please email me off list at this email address or secret...@cavetexas.org if you are a member and do not want your info published. We should soon be adding not having your info published as an option when you renew or join. Thanks, Denise Prendergast TSA Secretary
[Texascavers] new Association for Mexican Cave Studies books
The softbound version of the new AMCS Activities Newsletter 35 for 2012 is scheduled to be delivered to me tomorrow. Assuming that happens, it will be available for sale at the UT Grotto meeting tomorrow night for $15. It is 120 pages, with color photos and maps throughout. The hardbound version, which will be $25, will be available later, probably not until the grotto meeting on June 20. Also to be delivered the same day is AMCS Bulletin 22, Return to the Forgotten World / Regreso al Mundo Olvidado, by Carlos Lazcano, a report on the cave dwellings in part of Chihuahua, bilingual English/ Spanish, with maps and color photos, 120 pages softbound. Its price is $10. Bring money. These things have not yet been added to amcs-pubs.org. Once they are, you'll be notified, with info about mail orders, etc. Or of course they'll be for sale at the AMCS sales tables at NSS convention or this fall's TCR. -- Bill Mixon, AMCS editor God created the world in six days. On the seventh day, while God rested, the Devil created religion. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] on-line registration for NSS ending
The final date for on-line preregistration for the NSS convention is June 4, for some reason. If you haven't registered by then, you'll have to wait and register on-site. http://nss2012.com/register/. -- Mixon God created the world in six days. On the seventh day, while God rested, the Devil created religion. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[SWR] Fw: Breaking News: WNS Confirmed in Grey Bats in Tennessee
New Species infected by WNS (no mortality yet). Please post: WNS Confirmed in Grey Bats in Tennessee Press Release PDF is attached. Thanks, Peter Youngbaer White Nose Syndrome Liaison National Speleological Society (802) 272-3802 Gray_bats_2012_NR_Final.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] Caving and ists
Reflections about Ken's, Harvey's, Peter's and other comments on this subject: In an area where many of the caves are managed by federal agencies, the paperwork and regulations are increasing, reflecting the way the government operates (same thing happening at the gov't owned labs). Its inevitable. However, going caving for recreation or project-oriented work shouldn't be hampered, but maybe it is. Overly cautious WNS-concerns certainly has created a new set of overbearing requirements, but I shouldn't be a judge of that due to my own ignorance. Since I have been caving in NM for only 20 years, I don't know what it used to be like without permits and gates, etc. I have personally become more of a project-oriented caver in NM, than I was in the east when I was going caving just to see more caves. It has opened doors to exploring caves, mapping and going to places that I wouldn't have otherwise. I am taking the opportunities that are here and adjusting my own caving to fit as best as I can. This means some sacrifices including going on recreational caving trips less often. Its a personal thing, and it isn't intended to exclude like-minded cavers from joining with me. Myself and 3 other (younger) cavers in our grotto have become hard-working surveyors/explorers in both Lechuguilla Cave and in Ft Stanton cave, not because they were lucky or in the right place at the right time, but because they were given an opportunity one time and quickly figured out that they wanted to do this more. There have been plenty of one-time cavers who just wanted to say they had been there, but never returned with a long-term commitment. The same sort of thing happens in GypKap and in other projects. If we see names on maps and reports more often, its because they are the cavers sacrificing personal time to do this work, who love doing it. As for the work being done at FSC by the FSCSP, it may appear at first glance that there is a elite cadre of cavers or armchair-cavers who are making all the discoveries and producing scientific results. The application of scientific methods to understanding the cave is naturally going to come from people, either current or retired from technical careers, as we have. I would venture to suggest that this group has been very accommodating to include a variety of volunteers, cavers of all experience levels. The digging of P7 and later the even bigger Don Sawyer/Mud Turtle connection shaft was a big engineering undertaking. We should applaud the hard work of many cavers from NM, AZ, TX, CO and other areas who helped make these access routes to discover Snowy River, still going on and on. This significant new area will probably never be open to recreational caving, due to the delicate nature. To get in it, requires talking to the project leaders and teams and joining in to help. The far end of south SR is taking its toll on cavers, and has caused the number of capable local cavers going there to dwindle to a dozen more or less. This is strictly due to the extreme length and physical toll it takes. Younger cavers are of course more capable in these aspects and will be the future explorers of this and other difficult caves in the region. The rest of us old farts will have to sit it out and complain about not going. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[Texascavers] Paging Ted Lee
Tedd Lee - Please contact me off list. Thanks, Denise Prendergast TSA Secretary
Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
All I plan on writing something about this for the caver so I won't drag on. But I must say that there is plenty of recreational caving going on. I know this because I issue permits or give directions on a weekly if not daily basis. And most of these people are young. Just friday I met with two young guys from Ft. Bliss in El Paso. I sent them to Parks Ranch and Mudgett's and more excited they could not be. I doubt you will ever see them at a Regional or a Grotto meeting. Just as everyone that owns a gun is not going to join the NRA. Its just a fact. I caved for 5 years or so before I ever joined the NSS. What bothers me more are the new people that DO join the grottos and the Region but quickly drop out, yet continue to come to me for permits, directions, etc. If I didn't actually like ya'll so damn much, I would have probably dropped out already as opposed to constantly hear how things suck now and how much better they used to be. But seriously attitudes can do a great deal in retaining young people and new members. Remember, most of these people have already dealt with permits, bureaucracy, etc before coming to regional events and meetings. Hell, they grew up with bureaucracy in ever aspect of their lives! Remember, we never experienced being able to carry knives and cigarette lighters onto planes. My point being that a cave permit isn't going to keep someone that is truly interested in caving away. And sour attitudes won't either. But they will keep them out of our organizations. Aaron Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 12:12:10 To: hrduch...@gmail.com Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering Harvey, Ken, The argument about lack of freedom to do what we want in caves without restrictions is much the same as arguments with any activity that humans pursue in an civilized society. Freedom is not free. With freedom comes responsibility. There is a tendency to feel that rules are for everyone else. I don't agree that we shot ourselves in the foot, in regards to the NCPA. We have to remember that we are part of the group everyone. I do agree, however, that one well placed bureaucrat can muck up the works. The current mess with WNS seems to me to be due to a few misguided bureaucrats. At any rate, I don't think it serves the interest of the sport of caving to decry the end of recreational caving. Caving has changed since many of us started. We are victims of our own success. I think we should focus on making sure that there is a place for sport caving as well as research. I think there is room for everyone. On May 28, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Harvey DuChene wrote: Ken and all, Mostly I agree with you, even though I am an ist. If there is one place where I disagree, it's that the problem isn't just the ists. I alluded to this in my talk. We used to be able to go caving just for the hell of it. No permits, no paper work, no restrictions. Now we have to get permission to do damn near everything. The National Cave Protection Act is being used by some in your (and my) government to protect caves. Trouble is, the caves are being protected from...us. With the NCPA, we have shot ourselves in the foot. Maybe both feet. It's almost easier to go caving in some other country than it is to do it in our own, thanks to the NCPA. Because of certain individuals in bureaucratic positions, we are being shut out of the very caves we asked them to help us protect. Does anyone else besides me see irony, here? I sympathize, Ken. Part of the reason I don't go caving much anymore is because I'm old and decrepit. But part of it is because of the restrictive rules and regulations imposed by certain people in our government agencies. There is a caveat, here. Some (perhaps many) of the folks working for the agencies are very good people who are sympathetic to the view of cavers. But it only takes one well placed bureaucrat to muck up the works. The NCPA has, indeed, bitten us in the ass! Don't blame it all on the ists. Some (perhaps most) of the blame needs to placed where it belongs - on the crats. Harvey DuChene From: swr-boun...@caver.net mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Ken Harrington Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 5:43 PM To: SWR Cavers Subject: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversery Gathering What a wonderful gathering of the great cave explorers of New Mexico this past weekend. These were the people who went where no one had gone before and probed the darkness to see what no one had seen before. They experimented with new designs for vertical gear to make things lighter and better for reaching those deep recesses of the mountains. There will never be another gathering like this. But it also was also significant in that it marked the end of the era
Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
I will add my two cents worth to this. I had the good fortune to discover Andy's Cave back in 1970. As a small cave in a difficult location to find, it did not receive much visitation to speak of. Within a couple of years of its discovery, it started to show the signs of wear and tear, much to my dismay. One of the extremely delicate rimstone dams in the back end of it was damaged by someone walking on it. I was not happy. Many years later, I returned again with Ransom on a trip and discovered that another dam was damaged. Several years after that, on my fourth or so trip in there, I found that about 10 of them were completely broken. The time since I was in there with Ransom to the time I returned as Trip Leader for that cave, all the entries had been made on TL guided trips. I am making the assumption that it was likely on one of those TL guided trips with competent cavers that the bulk of damage was done, most likely by one large footed inconsiderate SOB who either wasn't being led properly or did the damage while no one was looking. The area is now pretty well ruined as a result. I realize that it was done under the guidance of a trip leader for which there is seemingly no excuse for that happening, but I also shudder to think what would have happened if some unguided, unthinking, uncaring lug nut of a caver just decided to tromp through there. It is sad occurrences like this that have been responsible for the closing or tightening of permitting on various caves. In a sense, we have met the enemy and they are us… I agree with Aaron that there are still plenty of cave permits available to be had. It does take a bit more planning than usual to get those permits for specific time slots, but then again, there are a hell of lot more cavers out there now than there were way back when. I remember several summers in the Guads in the late sixties/seventies when we spent weeks up there on top of the ridge and virtually NEVER saw anyone else up there. Nearly everyone was off in Vietnam or elsewhere at the time. Now there's a whole new group of people coming. In fact, John's recent posting about the discovery in Lech was amazing to me in that I didn't recognize 80% of the names of people who were on that trip. Most of them looked a lot younger than I am. I also don't go caving out there as much as I'd like to, given that there's a couple thousand miles between me and the Guads, but I also don't ever seem to have much trouble to find some caving opportunities out there of my own choice. Unfortunately, the scourge of WNS has brought that tragedy to the forefront of consciousness in the minds of Americans in general and thus they complain that cavers, who may be a vector for the spread of the disease in their minds, should be kept out to stop that spread. We do what we can to stop that train of thought, but for the uninitiated, it is hard to make an argument in our favor. And that's all I have to say about that… Peter On May 29, 2012, at 8:39 AM, Aaron Stockton wrote: All I plan on writing something about this for the caver so I won't drag on. But I must say that there is plenty of recreational caving going on. I know this because I issue permits or give directions on a weekly if not daily basis. And most of these people are young. Just friday I met with two young guys from Ft. Bliss in El Paso. I sent them to Parks Ranch and Mudgett's and more excited they could not be. I doubt you will ever see them at a Regional or a Grotto meeting. Just as everyone that owns a gun is not going to join the NRA. Its just a fact. I caved for 5 years or so before I ever joined the NSS. What bothers me more are the new people that DO join the grottos and the Region but quickly drop out, yet continue to come to me for permits, directions, etc. If I didn't actually like ya'll so damn much, I would have probably dropped out already as opposed to constantly hear how things suck now and how much better they used to be. But seriously attitudes can do a great deal in retaining young people and new members. Remember, most of these people have already dealt with permits, bureaucracy, etc before coming to regional events and meetings. Hell, they grew up with bureaucracy in ever aspect of their lives! Remember, we never experienced being able to carry knives and cigarette lighters onto planes. My point being that a cave permit isn't going to keep someone that is truly interested in caving away. And sour attitudes won't either. But they will keep them out of our organizations. Aaron Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 12:12:10 To: hrduch...@gmail.com Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering Harvey, Ken, The argument about lack of freedom to do what we want in caves without
[Texascavers] Where have these folks been for the last five years?
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/29/11939375-disease-wiping-out-bats-hits-new-species-spreads-west?lite
[Texascavers] purchasing new AMCS books
I have been reminded that I could also sell copies of the new AMCS books at Strickland's pond party on June 16. I'll have some there, but you'll have to track me down. I won't be setting up a table and sitting at it all the time; it's a party, after all. -- Mixon God created the world in six days. On the seventh day, while God rested, the Devil created religion. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[DFWgrotto] Fwd: CM cave trip reminder
More info about the Eisenhour Ranch caving trip. Diana Begin forwarded message: This is the biggest caver outing between TSA and TCR! All grottos are invited. Hopefully my grotto contacts have spread the word about the C My Shovel trip weekend of June 9. I’ll post complete details tonight. Please coordinate your rsvp with your grotto trip contact, who will contact me. Primitive camping is available Friday and Saturday nights. CM is located near Honey Creek Cave and is both water and vertical. (must be vertically competent – there is no tractor here) You must have your own gear and wet suit. No fins or boogie boards are needed, only sturdy cave boots. There is very little swimming and the trip should last about 2.5 hours, not including in and out. There is ridge walking and I’ve been told lots of little caves for those who don’t want to go in CM. If we get around 40 cavers there will be BBQ provided Saturday night in which we will pass the hat for payment. Thanks and see you there! [_signature] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R. Tomchick Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of Biochemistry 5323 Harry Hines Blvd. Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edumailto:diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu 214-645-6383 (phone) 214-645-6353 (fax) UT Southwestern Medical Center The future of medicine, today. ___ DFWgrotto mailing list dfwgro...@dfwgrotto.org http://dfwgrotto.org/mailman/listinfo/dfwgrotto_dfwgrotto.org
[Texascavers] TSA Members List
We will be publishing the TSA members list soon. We plan to email it out to active members. Please email me off list at this email address or secret...@cavetexas.org if you are a member and do not want your info published. We should soon be adding not having your info published as an option when you renew or join. Thanks, Denise Prendergast TSA Secretary
[Texascavers] new Association for Mexican Cave Studies books
The softbound version of the new AMCS Activities Newsletter 35 for 2012 is scheduled to be delivered to me tomorrow. Assuming that happens, it will be available for sale at the UT Grotto meeting tomorrow night for $15. It is 120 pages, with color photos and maps throughout. The hardbound version, which will be $25, will be available later, probably not until the grotto meeting on June 20. Also to be delivered the same day is AMCS Bulletin 22, Return to the Forgotten World / Regreso al Mundo Olvidado, by Carlos Lazcano, a report on the cave dwellings in part of Chihuahua, bilingual English/ Spanish, with maps and color photos, 120 pages softbound. Its price is $10. Bring money. These things have not yet been added to amcs-pubs.org. Once they are, you'll be notified, with info about mail orders, etc. Or of course they'll be for sale at the AMCS sales tables at NSS convention or this fall's TCR. -- Bill Mixon, AMCS editor God created the world in six days. On the seventh day, while God rested, the Devil created religion. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] on-line registration for NSS ending
The final date for on-line preregistration for the NSS convention is June 4, for some reason. If you haven't registered by then, you'll have to wait and register on-site. http://nss2012.com/register/. -- Mixon God created the world in six days. On the seventh day, while God rested, the Devil created religion. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[SWR] Caving and ists
Reflections about Ken's, Harvey's, Peter's and other comments on this subject: In an area where many of the caves are managed by federal agencies, the paperwork and regulations are increasing, reflecting the way the government operates (same thing happening at the gov't owned labs). Its inevitable. However, going caving for recreation or project-oriented work shouldn't be hampered, but maybe it is. Overly cautious WNS-concerns certainly has created a new set of overbearing requirements, but I shouldn't be a judge of that due to my own ignorance. Since I have been caving in NM for only 20 years, I don't know what it used to be like without permits and gates, etc. I have personally become more of a project-oriented caver in NM, than I was in the east when I was going caving just to see more caves. It has opened doors to exploring caves, mapping and going to places that I wouldn't have otherwise. I am taking the opportunities that are here and adjusting my own caving to fit as best as I can. This means some sacrifices including going on recreational caving trips less often. Its a personal thing, and it isn't intended to exclude like-minded cavers from joining with me. Myself and 3 other (younger) cavers in our grotto have become hard-working surveyors/explorers in both Lechuguilla Cave and in Ft Stanton cave, not because they were lucky or in the right place at the right time, but because they were given an opportunity one time and quickly figured out that they wanted to do this more. There have been plenty of one-time cavers who just wanted to say they had been there, but never returned with a long-term commitment. The same sort of thing happens in GypKap and in other projects. If we see names on maps and reports more often, its because they are the cavers sacrificing personal time to do this work, who love doing it. As for the work being done at FSC by the FSCSP, it may appear at first glance that there is a elite cadre of cavers or armchair-cavers who are making all the discoveries and producing scientific results. The application of scientific methods to understanding the cave is naturally going to come from people, either current or retired from technical careers, as we have. I would venture to suggest that this group has been very accommodating to include a variety of volunteers, cavers of all experience levels. The digging of P7 and later the even bigger Don Sawyer/Mud Turtle connection shaft was a big engineering undertaking. We should applaud the hard work of many cavers from NM, AZ, TX, CO and other areas who helped make these access routes to discover Snowy River, still going on and on. This significant new area will probably never be open to recreational caving, due to the delicate nature. To get in it, requires talking to the project leaders and teams and joining in to help. The far end of south SR is taking its toll on cavers, and has caused the number of capable local cavers going there to dwindle to a dozen more or less. This is strictly due to the extreme length and physical toll it takes. Younger cavers are of course more capable in these aspects and will be the future explorers of this and other difficult caves in the region. The rest of us old farts will have to sit it out and complain about not going. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[Texascavers] Paging Ted Lee
Tedd Lee - Please contact me off list. Thanks, Denise Prendergast TSA Secretary
texascavers Digest 29 May 2012 23:16:53 -0000 Issue 1559
texascavers Digest 29 May 2012 23:16:53 - Issue 1559 Topics (messages 20054 through 20064): UT Grotto Meeting - Wed May 30th 20054 by: Gary Franklin Rats! 20055 by: BMorgan994.aol.com 20057 by: Ted Samsel 20058 by: Mark Minton CM cave trip reminder 20056 by: Jill Orr TSA Members List 20059 by: Denise P new Association for Mexican Cave Studies books 20060 by: Mixon Bill on-line registration for NSS ending 20061 by: Mixon Bill purchasing new AMCS books 20062 by: Mixon Bill Where have these folks been for the last five years? 20063 by: Louise Power Paging Ted Lee 20064 by: Denise P Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- Howdy Caver, You are cordially invited to attend the next UT Grotto meeting - Wednesday May 16th from 7:45PM- 9:00PM University of Texas Campus in 2.48 Painter Hall (156 West 24th Street, Austin TX 78712) http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html Ben Hutchins will present Exploration and Mapping of CM Cave (a.k.a. See My Shovel Cave) This ongoing project includes both vertical and wet caving along with scuba tank hauls to continue pushing the bounds of the cave passage near Comal/Kendall Co TX. Come out for the fun and fellowship with Austin Texas Cavers. For information on Underground Texas Grotto activities, please see www.utgrotto.org Officer contact, trip reports, event calendar, and new caver training links to beginner trips or vertical rope training are available. Before the meeting, take advantage of Sao Paulo www.saopaulos.net for happy hour specials. This area is the best place to park and meet folks walking over to the meeting. Then after the official meeting, we continue with the decades long tradition to reconvene for burgers, beer, and tall tales of caving at Posse East. www.posse-east.com The UT Grotto Program calendar is wide open and needs you, the caver with photos and a story to share about your adventures, scientific research, or something else really cool. Contact me. Sincerely, Gary Franklin UT Grotto Vice Chair Program Organizer 512-585-6057 v...@utgrotto.org ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- I have eaten wild rats in Laos and they were quite good. Lab rats are a different story. Some years ago I held a rat BBQ here at Weazelworld. My neighbor was the largest rat farmer in the world, but he wouldn't sell any to me when he found out we were going to eat them, a liability issue I suppose. That meant I had to go to Hogtown Herps, a decidedly down market place. We got jumbos and large pinkies, almost fuzzies. The jumbos were barbecued in the traditional manner and tasted terrible. The pinkies were rolled on the grill, they looked and tasted exactly like fat little weenies. The problem was that I had failed to gut them. So it came to pass that someone was passing around a tray of pinkies fresh off the grill. I had learned that the head and thorax were good; whereas the abdomen was not, so I bit down on the forward section and a jet of hot rat shit squirted out and hit a passing woman directly in the eye. She was not pleased. And I agree, snakes have dry stringy white meat that tastes nothing like chicken. In China I was once served a bowl of three snake with cat meat soup. The cat meat predominated which saved the soup. Sleaze ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- Nutria ain't bad. Ted On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 9:44 AM, bmorgan...@aol.com wrote: ** I have eaten wild rats in Laos and they were quite good. Lab rats are a different story. Some years ago I held a rat BBQ here at Weazelworld. My neighbor was the largest rat farmer in the world, but he wouldn't sell any to me when he found out we were going to eat them, a liability issue I suppose. That meant I had to go to Hogtown Herps, a decidedly down market place. We got jumbos and large pinkies, almost fuzzies. The jumbos were barbecued in the traditional manner and tasted terrible. The pinkies were rolled on the grill, they looked and tasted exactly like fat little weenies. The problem was that I had failed to gut them. So it came to pass that someone was passing around a tray of pinkies fresh off the grill. I had learned that the head and thorax were good; whereas the abdomen was not, so I bit down on the forward section and a jet of hot rat shit squirted out and hit a passing woman directly in the eye. She was not pleased. And I agree, snakes have dry stringy white meat that tastes nothing like chicken. In China I was once served a bowl of three snake with cat meat soup. The cat meat predominated which saved the soup.
Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
Harvey, Ken, The argument about lack of freedom to do what we want in caves without restrictions is much the same as arguments with any activity that humans pursue in an civilized society. Freedom is not free. With freedom comes responsibility. There is a tendency to feel that rules are for everyone else. I don't agree that we shot ourselves in the foot, in regards to the NCPA. We have to remember that we are part of the group everyone. I do agree, however, that one well placed bureaucrat can muck up the works. The current mess with WNS seems to me to be due to a few misguided bureaucrats. At any rate, I don't think it serves the interest of the sport of caving to decry the end of recreational caving. Caving has changed since many of us started. We are victims of our own success. I think we should focus on making sure that there is a place for sport caving as well as research. I think there is room for everyone. On May 28, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Harvey DuChene wrote: Ken and all, Mostly I agree with you, even though I am an “ist”. If there is one place where I disagree, it’s that the problem isn’t just the “ists.” I alluded to this in my talk. We used to be able to go caving just for the hell of it. No permits, no paper work, no restrictions. Now we have to get permission to do damn near everything. The National Cave Protection Act is being used by some in your (and my) government to protect caves. Trouble is, the caves are being “protected” from…..us. With the NCPA, we have shot ourselves in the foot. Maybe both feet. It’s almost easier to go caving in some other country than it is to do it in our own, thanks to the NCPA. Because of certain individuals in bureaucratic positions, we are being shut out of the very caves we asked them to help us protect. Does anyone else besides me see irony, here? I sympathize, Ken. Part of the reason I don’t go caving much anymore is because I’m old and decrepit. But part of it is because of the restrictive rules and regulations imposed by certain people in our government agencies. There is a caveat, here. Some (perhaps many) of the folks working for the agencies are very good people who are sympathetic to the view of cavers. But it only takes one well placed bureaucrat to muck up the works. The NCPA has, indeed, bitten us in the ass! Don’t blame it all on the “ists.” Some (perhaps most) of the blame needs to placed where it belongs – on the “crats.” Harvey DuChene From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Ken Harrington Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 5:43 PM To: SWR Cavers Subject: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversery Gathering What a wonderful gathering of the great cave explorers of New Mexico this past weekend. These were the people who went where no one had gone before and probed the darkness to see what no one had seen before. They experimented with new designs for vertical gear to make things lighter and better for reaching those deep recesses of the mountains. There will never be another gathering like this. But it also was also significant in that it marked the end of the era of recreational caving. Never again will anyone be allowed to go “recreational caving” in Fort Stanton because it would be a “fun” thing to do. Nothing has brought this clearer to me than the BLM bunkhouse; where the walls are covered with the accomplishments of the “ists” who have taken over Fort Stanton Cave and caving in general. Mr. Fleming told me a while ago that “he no longer goes caving as caving isn’t fun any more”. At the time I didn’t understand him, but now I do. If all caving is being done to further research of the “ists”, then caving is a dying activity. Young people are not going to join us and go caving just to collect soil samples or watch a chosen few get to do all the exploration of new places. Preservation of the caves is a waste of time if there is not going to be any one in the future to appreciate the caves for what there are, and the natural grandness of them. The 50th was a wonderful event and congratulations to all who made it a success. I had a great time but left with a heavy heart as I realized that caving as I knew it is a dead art form. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 7176 (20120528) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 7176 (20120528) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net Steve Peerman Twenty
Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
All I plan on writing something about this for the caver so I won't drag on. But I must say that there is plenty of recreational caving going on. I know this because I issue permits or give directions on a weekly if not daily basis. And most of these people are young. Just friday I met with two young guys from Ft. Bliss in El Paso. I sent them to Parks Ranch and Mudgett's and more excited they could not be. I doubt you will ever see them at a Regional or a Grotto meeting. Just as everyone that owns a gun is not going to join the NRA. Its just a fact. I caved for 5 years or so before I ever joined the NSS. What bothers me more are the new people that DO join the grottos and the Region but quickly drop out, yet continue to come to me for permits, directions, etc. If I didn't actually like ya'll so damn much, I would have probably dropped out already as opposed to constantly hear how things suck now and how much better they used to be. But seriously attitudes can do a great deal in retaining young people and new members. Remember, most of these people have already dealt with permits, bureaucracy, etc before coming to regional events and meetings. Hell, they grew up with bureaucracy in ever aspect of their lives! Remember, we never experienced being able to carry knives and cigarette lighters onto planes. My point being that a cave permit isn't going to keep someone that is truly interested in caving away. And sour attitudes won't either. But they will keep them out of our organizations. Aaron Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 12:12:10 To: hrduch...@gmail.com Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering Harvey, Ken, The argument about lack of freedom to do what we want in caves without restrictions is much the same as arguments with any activity that humans pursue in an civilized society. Freedom is not free. With freedom comes responsibility. There is a tendency to feel that rules are for everyone else. I don't agree that we shot ourselves in the foot, in regards to the NCPA. We have to remember that we are part of the group everyone. I do agree, however, that one well placed bureaucrat can muck up the works. The current mess with WNS seems to me to be due to a few misguided bureaucrats. At any rate, I don't think it serves the interest of the sport of caving to decry the end of recreational caving. Caving has changed since many of us started. We are victims of our own success. I think we should focus on making sure that there is a place for sport caving as well as research. I think there is room for everyone. On May 28, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Harvey DuChene wrote: Ken and all, Mostly I agree with you, even though I am an ist. If there is one place where I disagree, it's that the problem isn't just the ists. I alluded to this in my talk. We used to be able to go caving just for the hell of it. No permits, no paper work, no restrictions. Now we have to get permission to do damn near everything. The National Cave Protection Act is being used by some in your (and my) government to protect caves. Trouble is, the caves are being protected from...us. With the NCPA, we have shot ourselves in the foot. Maybe both feet. It's almost easier to go caving in some other country than it is to do it in our own, thanks to the NCPA. Because of certain individuals in bureaucratic positions, we are being shut out of the very caves we asked them to help us protect. Does anyone else besides me see irony, here? I sympathize, Ken. Part of the reason I don't go caving much anymore is because I'm old and decrepit. But part of it is because of the restrictive rules and regulations imposed by certain people in our government agencies. There is a caveat, here. Some (perhaps many) of the folks working for the agencies are very good people who are sympathetic to the view of cavers. But it only takes one well placed bureaucrat to muck up the works. The NCPA has, indeed, bitten us in the ass! Don't blame it all on the ists. Some (perhaps most) of the blame needs to placed where it belongs - on the crats. Harvey DuChene From: swr-boun...@caver.net mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Ken Harrington Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 5:43 PM To: SWR Cavers Subject: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversery Gathering What a wonderful gathering of the great cave explorers of New Mexico this past weekend. These were the people who went where no one had gone before and probed the darkness to see what no one had seen before. They experimented with new designs for vertical gear to make things lighter and better for reaching those deep recesses of the mountains. There will never be another gathering like this. But it also was also
Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
I will add my two cents worth to this. I had the good fortune to discover Andy's Cave back in 1970. As a small cave in a difficult location to find, it did not receive much visitation to speak of. Within a couple of years of its discovery, it started to show the signs of wear and tear, much to my dismay. One of the extremely delicate rimstone dams in the back end of it was damaged by someone walking on it. I was not happy. Many years later, I returned again with Ransom on a trip and discovered that another dam was damaged. Several years after that, on my fourth or so trip in there, I found that about 10 of them were completely broken. The time since I was in there with Ransom to the time I returned as Trip Leader for that cave, all the entries had been made on TL guided trips. I am making the assumption that it was likely on one of those TL guided trips with competent cavers that the bulk of damage was done, most likely by one large footed inconsiderate SOB who either wasn't being led properly or did the damage while no one was looking. The area is now pretty well ruined as a result. I realize that it was done under the guidance of a trip leader for which there is seemingly no excuse for that happening, but I also shudder to think what would have happened if some unguided, unthinking, uncaring lug nut of a caver just decided to tromp through there. It is sad occurrences like this that have been responsible for the closing or tightening of permitting on various caves. In a sense, we have met the enemy and they are us… I agree with Aaron that there are still plenty of cave permits available to be had. It does take a bit more planning than usual to get those permits for specific time slots, but then again, there are a hell of lot more cavers out there now than there were way back when. I remember several summers in the Guads in the late sixties/seventies when we spent weeks up there on top of the ridge and virtually NEVER saw anyone else up there. Nearly everyone was off in Vietnam or elsewhere at the time. Now there's a whole new group of people coming. In fact, John's recent posting about the discovery in Lech was amazing to me in that I didn't recognize 80% of the names of people who were on that trip. Most of them looked a lot younger than I am. I also don't go caving out there as much as I'd like to, given that there's a couple thousand miles between me and the Guads, but I also don't ever seem to have much trouble to find some caving opportunities out there of my own choice. Unfortunately, the scourge of WNS has brought that tragedy to the forefront of consciousness in the minds of Americans in general and thus they complain that cavers, who may be a vector for the spread of the disease in their minds, should be kept out to stop that spread. We do what we can to stop that train of thought, but for the uninitiated, it is hard to make an argument in our favor. And that's all I have to say about that… Peter On May 29, 2012, at 8:39 AM, Aaron Stockton wrote: All I plan on writing something about this for the caver so I won't drag on. But I must say that there is plenty of recreational caving going on. I know this because I issue permits or give directions on a weekly if not daily basis. And most of these people are young. Just friday I met with two young guys from Ft. Bliss in El Paso. I sent them to Parks Ranch and Mudgett's and more excited they could not be. I doubt you will ever see them at a Regional or a Grotto meeting. Just as everyone that owns a gun is not going to join the NRA. Its just a fact. I caved for 5 years or so before I ever joined the NSS. What bothers me more are the new people that DO join the grottos and the Region but quickly drop out, yet continue to come to me for permits, directions, etc. If I didn't actually like ya'll so damn much, I would have probably dropped out already as opposed to constantly hear how things suck now and how much better they used to be. But seriously attitudes can do a great deal in retaining young people and new members. Remember, most of these people have already dealt with permits, bureaucracy, etc before coming to regional events and meetings. Hell, they grew up with bureaucracy in ever aspect of their lives! Remember, we never experienced being able to carry knives and cigarette lighters onto planes. My point being that a cave permit isn't going to keep someone that is truly interested in caving away. And sour attitudes won't either. But they will keep them out of our organizations. Aaron Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 12:12:10 To: hrduch...@gmail.com Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering Harvey, Ken, The argument about lack of freedom to do what we want in caves without
Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
Dear All, I have followed the comments this morning with interest. Indeed, it was great fun to participate in the celebration over the weekend and my compliments to the organizers who have obviously put in so much time and care in the preparations. The hard work definitely showed in the result! And excellent to hear of the history of caves in the area as experienced by the members who have participated for decades. As a science person, I want to point out that it is not the science which is somehow getting in the way of recreational caving. I would hope, in fact, that additional information about the geology, hydrology, and biology of a cave system would make it even more interesting for those who wish to cave for fun. It is true that there are caves so special, or fragile, or uniquely worthy of protection in some way that they are not available for recreation, but can sometimes be made available for scientific research. I think this is not something that science has to apologize for. Having just returned from a meeting and cave and mine work in Sardinia, I have a new appreciation for what protection of caves can do. Being there and seeing what has been done to caves that have been intersected by mining activities over the course of history has given a new meaning to the term plundered in my mind. Apparently, only being called after a saint (Santa Barbara, the patron saint of mining) has saved one cave from plunder, but the amazing damage to the other caves makes me appreciate all over again the role of federal, state, and private cave owner protection of the underground wilderness. Are permits and arrangements a pain in the ass? You bet! Are caves worth the hassle? You bet! Are the kids in our NMT Grotto anxious and willing to cave both for recreation and science? You bet! I wouldn't worry about the next generation. I think they will be fine cavers and good stewards of the underground. Penny On May 29, 2012, at 6:39 AM, Aaron Stockton wrote: All I plan on writing something about this for the caver so I won't drag on. But I must say that there is plenty of recreational caving going on. I know this because I issue permits or give directions on a weekly if not daily basis. And most of these people are young. Just friday I met with two young guys from Ft. Bliss in El Paso. I sent them to Parks Ranch and Mudgett's and more excited they could not be. I doubt you will ever see them at a Regional or a Grotto meeting. Just as everyone that owns a gun is not going to join the NRA. Its just a fact. I caved for 5 years or so before I ever joined the NSS. What bothers me more are the new people that DO join the grottos and the Region but quickly drop out, yet continue to come to me for permits, directions, etc. If I didn't actually like ya'll so damn much, I would have probably dropped out already as opposed to constantly hear how things suck now and how much better they used to be. But seriously attitudes can do a great deal in retaining young people and new members. Remember, most of these people have already dealt with permits, bureaucracy, etc before coming to regional events and meetings. Hell, they grew up with bureaucracy in ever aspect of their lives! Remember, we never experienced being able to carry knives and cigarette lighters onto planes. My point being that a cave permit isn't going to keep someone that is truly interested in caving away. And sour attitudes won't either. But they will keep them out of our organizations. Aaron Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 12:12:10 To: hrduch...@gmail.com Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering Harvey, Ken, The argument about lack of freedom to do what we want in caves without restrictions is much the same as arguments with any activity that humans pursue in an civilized society. Freedom is not free. With freedom comes responsibility. There is a tendency to feel that rules are for everyone else. I don't agree that we shot ourselves in the foot, in regards to the NCPA. We have to remember that we are part of the group everyone. I do agree, however, that one well placed bureaucrat can muck up the works. The current mess with WNS seems to me to be due to a few misguided bureaucrats. At any rate, I don't think it serves the interest of the sport of caving to decry the end of recreational caving. Caving has changed since many of us started. We are victims of our own success. I think we should focus on making sure that there is a place for sport caving as well as research. I think there is room for everyone. On May 28, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Harvey DuChene wrote: Ken and all, Mostly I agree with you, even though I am an ist. If there is one place where I
Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
All, I, too, have been following the beads of conversation here. What I got out of this last Saturday's gathering, besides all of the fellowship and caring (several really seemed to express their care about my safety on the drive Saturday night back to Socorro - thanks), was the terrific energy that past and present cave explorers have put into their seeking of underground adventure. Caving adventure is NOT all lost. It is just harder to find. Why, just today, I visited a fissure cave in the Jemez near San Antonio hot springs that I didn't know was there. It wasn't big, but it was new to me and the geology of the tufa rock was amazing and needs to be explored by someone certainly more knowledgeable of this formation than I am. The fissure cave was in a huge wave of tufa bent and folded. On one face, it looked like tufa flowstone. The cave wasn't long or deep, but it was a cave touching briefly into darkness, then ending abruptly. And, it was a beautiful wildflower hike through the woods to get to it. I think caving today will just take more energy from those who seek the underground exploration adventure that the now-old-farts accomplished in the past. Yes, much recreational caving may be out the window, but I thought most of us were enticed into caving by the efforts we put into digging, pushing new passages, and climbing up and down those daunting ridges to check rumors of a cave somewhere up or down those slopes. And I remember that we were avidly desirous of protecting what we found, if only so that it might be there for later peoples who follow our tracks. I have led very few recreational caving trips in the last 20 years and have encouraged new as well as curious past cavers to go out there and find the caves. And they did, or they found leaders like John who can open their eyes and improve their skills to experience what we all want to protect - above, below, inside, and on the earth. We have gotten away from protecting the earth. It's not just about us; it's about the Earth, isn't it. Further, I hope these threads of excellent conversation will get published in the *Southwestern Cavers* for all to ponder over. Linda Starr On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Penny Boston pbos...@nmt.edu wrote: Dear All, I have followed the comments this morning with interest. Indeed, it was great fun to participate in the celebration over the weekend and my compliments to the organizers who have obviously put in so much time and care in the preparations. The hard work definitely showed in the result! And excellent to hear of the history of caves in the area as experienced by the members who have participated for decades. As a science person, I want to point out that it is not the science which is somehow getting in the way of recreational caving. I would hope, in fact, that additional information about the geology, hydrology, and biology of a cave system would make it even more interesting for those who wish to cave for fun. It is true that there are caves so special, or fragile, or uniquely worthy of protection in some way that they are not available for recreation, but can sometimes be made available for scientific research. I think this is not something that science has to apologize for. Having just returned from a meeting and cave and mine work in Sardinia, I have a new appreciation for what protection of caves can do. Being there and seeing what has been done to caves that have been intersected by mining activities over the course of history has given a new meaning to the term plundered in my mind. Apparently, only being called after a saint (Santa Barbara, the patron saint of mining) has saved one cave from plunder, but the amazing damage to the other caves makes me appreciate all over again the role of federal, state, and private cave owner protection of the underground wilderness. Are permits and arrangements a pain in the ass? You bet! Are caves worth the hassle? You bet! Are the kids in our NMT Grotto anxious and willing to cave both for recreation and science? You bet! I wouldn't worry about the next generation. I think they will be fine cavers and good stewards of the underground. Penny On May 29, 2012, at 6:39 AM, Aaron Stockton wrote: All I plan on writing something about this for the caver so I won't drag on. But I must say that there is plenty of recreational caving going on. I know this because I issue permits or give directions on a weekly if not daily basis. And most of these people are young. Just friday I met with two young guys from Ft. Bliss in El Paso. I sent them to Parks Ranch and Mudgett's and more excited they could not be. I doubt you will ever see them at a Regional or a Grotto meeting. Just as everyone that owns a gun is not going to join the NRA. Its just a fact. I caved for 5 years or so before I ever joined the NSS. What bothers me more are the new people that DO join the grottos and the Region but
[Texascavers] Where have these folks been for the last five years?
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/29/11939375-disease-wiping-out-bats-hits-new-species-spreads-west?lite
[Texascavers] purchasing new AMCS books
I have been reminded that I could also sell copies of the new AMCS books at Strickland's pond party on June 16. I'll have some there, but you'll have to track me down. I won't be setting up a table and sitting at it all the time; it's a party, after all. -- Mixon God created the world in six days. On the seventh day, while God rested, the Devil created religion. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[DFWgrotto] Fwd: CM cave trip reminder
More info about the Eisenhour Ranch caving trip. Diana Begin forwarded message: This is the biggest caver outing between TSA and TCR! All grottos are invited. Hopefully my grotto contacts have spread the word about the C My Shovel trip weekend of June 9. I’ll post complete details tonight. Please coordinate your rsvp with your grotto trip contact, who will contact me. Primitive camping is available Friday and Saturday nights. CM is located near Honey Creek Cave and is both water and vertical. (must be vertically competent – there is no tractor here) You must have your own gear and wet suit. No fins or boogie boards are needed, only sturdy cave boots. There is very little swimming and the trip should last about 2.5 hours, not including in and out. There is ridge walking and I’ve been told lots of little caves for those who don’t want to go in CM. If we get around 40 cavers there will be BBQ provided Saturday night in which we will pass the hat for payment. Thanks and see you there! [_signature] * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Diana R. Tomchick Professor University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Department of Biochemistry 5323 Harry Hines Blvd. Rm. ND10.214B Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A. Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edumailto:diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu 214-645-6383 (phone) 214-645-6353 (fax) UT Southwestern Medical Center The future of medicine, today. ___ DFWgrotto mailing list dfwgro...@dfwgrotto.org http://dfwgrotto.org/mailman/listinfo/dfwgrotto_dfwgrotto.org
[Texascavers] TSA Members List
We will be publishing the TSA members list soon. We plan to email it out to active members. Please email me off list at this email address or secret...@cavetexas.org if you are a member and do not want your info published. We should soon be adding not having your info published as an option when you renew or join. Thanks, Denise Prendergast TSA Secretary
[Texascavers] new Association for Mexican Cave Studies books
The softbound version of the new AMCS Activities Newsletter 35 for 2012 is scheduled to be delivered to me tomorrow. Assuming that happens, it will be available for sale at the UT Grotto meeting tomorrow night for $15. It is 120 pages, with color photos and maps throughout. The hardbound version, which will be $25, will be available later, probably not until the grotto meeting on June 20. Also to be delivered the same day is AMCS Bulletin 22, Return to the Forgotten World / Regreso al Mundo Olvidado, by Carlos Lazcano, a report on the cave dwellings in part of Chihuahua, bilingual English/ Spanish, with maps and color photos, 120 pages softbound. Its price is $10. Bring money. These things have not yet been added to amcs-pubs.org. Once they are, you'll be notified, with info about mail orders, etc. Or of course they'll be for sale at the AMCS sales tables at NSS convention or this fall's TCR. -- Bill Mixon, AMCS editor God created the world in six days. On the seventh day, while God rested, the Devil created religion. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] on-line registration for NSS ending
The final date for on-line preregistration for the NSS convention is June 4, for some reason. If you haven't registered by then, you'll have to wait and register on-site. http://nss2012.com/register/. -- Mixon God created the world in six days. On the seventh day, while God rested, the Devil created religion. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[SWR] Fw: Breaking News: WNS Confirmed in Grey Bats in Tennessee
New Species infected by WNS (no mortality yet). Please post: WNS Confirmed in Grey Bats in Tennessee Press Release PDF is attached. Thanks, Peter Youngbaer White Nose Syndrome Liaison National Speleological Society (802) 272-3802 Gray_bats_2012_NR_Final.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[SWR] Caving and ists
Reflections about Ken's, Harvey's, Peter's and other comments on this subject: In an area where many of the caves are managed by federal agencies, the paperwork and regulations are increasing, reflecting the way the government operates (same thing happening at the gov't owned labs). Its inevitable. However, going caving for recreation or project-oriented work shouldn't be hampered, but maybe it is. Overly cautious WNS-concerns certainly has created a new set of overbearing requirements, but I shouldn't be a judge of that due to my own ignorance. Since I have been caving in NM for only 20 years, I don't know what it used to be like without permits and gates, etc. I have personally become more of a project-oriented caver in NM, than I was in the east when I was going caving just to see more caves. It has opened doors to exploring caves, mapping and going to places that I wouldn't have otherwise. I am taking the opportunities that are here and adjusting my own caving to fit as best as I can. This means some sacrifices including going on recreational caving trips less often. Its a personal thing, and it isn't intended to exclude like-minded cavers from joining with me. Myself and 3 other (younger) cavers in our grotto have become hard-working surveyors/explorers in both Lechuguilla Cave and in Ft Stanton cave, not because they were lucky or in the right place at the right time, but because they were given an opportunity one time and quickly figured out that they wanted to do this more. There have been plenty of one-time cavers who just wanted to say they had been there, but never returned with a long-term commitment. The same sort of thing happens in GypKap and in other projects. If we see names on maps and reports more often, its because they are the cavers sacrificing personal time to do this work, who love doing it. As for the work being done at FSC by the FSCSP, it may appear at first glance that there is a elite cadre of cavers or armchair-cavers who are making all the discoveries and producing scientific results. The application of scientific methods to understanding the cave is naturally going to come from people, either current or retired from technical careers, as we have. I would venture to suggest that this group has been very accommodating to include a variety of volunteers, cavers of all experience levels. The digging of P7 and later the even bigger Don Sawyer/Mud Turtle connection shaft was a big engineering undertaking. We should applaud the hard work of many cavers from NM, AZ, TX, CO and other areas who helped make these access routes to discover Snowy River, still going on and on. This significant new area will probably never be open to recreational caving, due to the delicate nature. To get in it, requires talking to the project leaders and teams and joining in to help. The far end of south SR is taking its toll on cavers, and has caused the number of capable local cavers going there to dwindle to a dozen more or less. This is strictly due to the extreme length and physical toll it takes. Younger cavers are of course more capable in these aspects and will be the future explorers of this and other difficult caves in the region. The rest of us old farts will have to sit it out and complain about not going. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[Texascavers] Paging Ted Lee
Tedd Lee - Please contact me off list. Thanks, Denise Prendergast TSA Secretary
texascavers Digest 29 May 2012 23:16:53 -0000 Issue 1559
texascavers Digest 29 May 2012 23:16:53 - Issue 1559 Topics (messages 20054 through 20064): UT Grotto Meeting - Wed May 30th 20054 by: Gary Franklin Rats! 20055 by: BMorgan994.aol.com 20057 by: Ted Samsel 20058 by: Mark Minton CM cave trip reminder 20056 by: Jill Orr TSA Members List 20059 by: Denise P new Association for Mexican Cave Studies books 20060 by: Mixon Bill on-line registration for NSS ending 20061 by: Mixon Bill purchasing new AMCS books 20062 by: Mixon Bill Where have these folks been for the last five years? 20063 by: Louise Power Paging Ted Lee 20064 by: Denise P Administrivia: To subscribe to the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail: texascavers-digest-unsubscr...@texascavers.com To post to the list, e-mail: texascavers@texascavers.com -- ---BeginMessage--- Howdy Caver, You are cordially invited to attend the next UT Grotto meeting - Wednesday May 16th from 7:45PM- 9:00PM University of Texas Campus in 2.48 Painter Hall (156 West 24th Street, Austin TX 78712) http://www.utexas.edu/maps/main/buildings/pai.html Ben Hutchins will present Exploration and Mapping of CM Cave (a.k.a. See My Shovel Cave) This ongoing project includes both vertical and wet caving along with scuba tank hauls to continue pushing the bounds of the cave passage near Comal/Kendall Co TX. Come out for the fun and fellowship with Austin Texas Cavers. For information on Underground Texas Grotto activities, please see www.utgrotto.org Officer contact, trip reports, event calendar, and new caver training links to beginner trips or vertical rope training are available. Before the meeting, take advantage of Sao Paulo www.saopaulos.net for happy hour specials. This area is the best place to park and meet folks walking over to the meeting. Then after the official meeting, we continue with the decades long tradition to reconvene for burgers, beer, and tall tales of caving at Posse East. www.posse-east.com The UT Grotto Program calendar is wide open and needs you, the caver with photos and a story to share about your adventures, scientific research, or something else really cool. Contact me. Sincerely, Gary Franklin UT Grotto Vice Chair Program Organizer 512-585-6057 v...@utgrotto.org ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- I have eaten wild rats in Laos and they were quite good. Lab rats are a different story. Some years ago I held a rat BBQ here at Weazelworld. My neighbor was the largest rat farmer in the world, but he wouldn't sell any to me when he found out we were going to eat them, a liability issue I suppose. That meant I had to go to Hogtown Herps, a decidedly down market place. We got jumbos and large pinkies, almost fuzzies. The jumbos were barbecued in the traditional manner and tasted terrible. The pinkies were rolled on the grill, they looked and tasted exactly like fat little weenies. The problem was that I had failed to gut them. So it came to pass that someone was passing around a tray of pinkies fresh off the grill. I had learned that the head and thorax were good; whereas the abdomen was not, so I bit down on the forward section and a jet of hot rat shit squirted out and hit a passing woman directly in the eye. She was not pleased. And I agree, snakes have dry stringy white meat that tastes nothing like chicken. In China I was once served a bowl of three snake with cat meat soup. The cat meat predominated which saved the soup. Sleaze ---End Message--- ---BeginMessage--- Nutria ain't bad. Ted On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 9:44 AM, bmorgan...@aol.com wrote: ** I have eaten wild rats in Laos and they were quite good. Lab rats are a different story. Some years ago I held a rat BBQ here at Weazelworld. My neighbor was the largest rat farmer in the world, but he wouldn't sell any to me when he found out we were going to eat them, a liability issue I suppose. That meant I had to go to Hogtown Herps, a decidedly down market place. We got jumbos and large pinkies, almost fuzzies. The jumbos were barbecued in the traditional manner and tasted terrible. The pinkies were rolled on the grill, they looked and tasted exactly like fat little weenies. The problem was that I had failed to gut them. So it came to pass that someone was passing around a tray of pinkies fresh off the grill. I had learned that the head and thorax were good; whereas the abdomen was not, so I bit down on the forward section and a jet of hot rat shit squirted out and hit a passing woman directly in the eye. She was not pleased. And I agree, snakes have dry stringy white meat that tastes nothing like chicken. In China I was once served a bowl of three snake with cat meat soup. The cat meat predominated which saved the soup.
Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
Harvey, Ken, The argument about lack of freedom to do what we want in caves without restrictions is much the same as arguments with any activity that humans pursue in an civilized society. Freedom is not free. With freedom comes responsibility. There is a tendency to feel that rules are for everyone else. I don't agree that we shot ourselves in the foot, in regards to the NCPA. We have to remember that we are part of the group everyone. I do agree, however, that one well placed bureaucrat can muck up the works. The current mess with WNS seems to me to be due to a few misguided bureaucrats. At any rate, I don't think it serves the interest of the sport of caving to decry the end of recreational caving. Caving has changed since many of us started. We are victims of our own success. I think we should focus on making sure that there is a place for sport caving as well as research. I think there is room for everyone. On May 28, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Harvey DuChene wrote: Ken and all, Mostly I agree with you, even though I am an “ist”. If there is one place where I disagree, it’s that the problem isn’t just the “ists.” I alluded to this in my talk. We used to be able to go caving just for the hell of it. No permits, no paper work, no restrictions. Now we have to get permission to do damn near everything. The National Cave Protection Act is being used by some in your (and my) government to protect caves. Trouble is, the caves are being “protected” from…..us. With the NCPA, we have shot ourselves in the foot. Maybe both feet. It’s almost easier to go caving in some other country than it is to do it in our own, thanks to the NCPA. Because of certain individuals in bureaucratic positions, we are being shut out of the very caves we asked them to help us protect. Does anyone else besides me see irony, here? I sympathize, Ken. Part of the reason I don’t go caving much anymore is because I’m old and decrepit. But part of it is because of the restrictive rules and regulations imposed by certain people in our government agencies. There is a caveat, here. Some (perhaps many) of the folks working for the agencies are very good people who are sympathetic to the view of cavers. But it only takes one well placed bureaucrat to muck up the works. The NCPA has, indeed, bitten us in the ass! Don’t blame it all on the “ists.” Some (perhaps most) of the blame needs to placed where it belongs – on the “crats.” Harvey DuChene From: swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Ken Harrington Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 5:43 PM To: SWR Cavers Subject: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversery Gathering What a wonderful gathering of the great cave explorers of New Mexico this past weekend. These were the people who went where no one had gone before and probed the darkness to see what no one had seen before. They experimented with new designs for vertical gear to make things lighter and better for reaching those deep recesses of the mountains. There will never be another gathering like this. But it also was also significant in that it marked the end of the era of recreational caving. Never again will anyone be allowed to go “recreational caving” in Fort Stanton because it would be a “fun” thing to do. Nothing has brought this clearer to me than the BLM bunkhouse; where the walls are covered with the accomplishments of the “ists” who have taken over Fort Stanton Cave and caving in general. Mr. Fleming told me a while ago that “he no longer goes caving as caving isn’t fun any more”. At the time I didn’t understand him, but now I do. If all caving is being done to further research of the “ists”, then caving is a dying activity. Young people are not going to join us and go caving just to collect soil samples or watch a chosen few get to do all the exploration of new places. Preservation of the caves is a waste of time if there is not going to be any one in the future to appreciate the caves for what there are, and the natural grandness of them. The 50th was a wonderful event and congratulations to all who made it a success. I had a great time but left with a heavy heart as I realized that caving as I knew it is a dead art form. Ken Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass - It's about dancing in the rain. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 7176 (20120528) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 7176 (20120528) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net Steve Peerman Twenty
Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
All I plan on writing something about this for the caver so I won't drag on. But I must say that there is plenty of recreational caving going on. I know this because I issue permits or give directions on a weekly if not daily basis. And most of these people are young. Just friday I met with two young guys from Ft. Bliss in El Paso. I sent them to Parks Ranch and Mudgett's and more excited they could not be. I doubt you will ever see them at a Regional or a Grotto meeting. Just as everyone that owns a gun is not going to join the NRA. Its just a fact. I caved for 5 years or so before I ever joined the NSS. What bothers me more are the new people that DO join the grottos and the Region but quickly drop out, yet continue to come to me for permits, directions, etc. If I didn't actually like ya'll so damn much, I would have probably dropped out already as opposed to constantly hear how things suck now and how much better they used to be. But seriously attitudes can do a great deal in retaining young people and new members. Remember, most of these people have already dealt with permits, bureaucracy, etc before coming to regional events and meetings. Hell, they grew up with bureaucracy in ever aspect of their lives! Remember, we never experienced being able to carry knives and cigarette lighters onto planes. My point being that a cave permit isn't going to keep someone that is truly interested in caving away. And sour attitudes won't either. But they will keep them out of our organizations. Aaron Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 12:12:10 To: hrduch...@gmail.com Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering Harvey, Ken, The argument about lack of freedom to do what we want in caves without restrictions is much the same as arguments with any activity that humans pursue in an civilized society. Freedom is not free. With freedom comes responsibility. There is a tendency to feel that rules are for everyone else. I don't agree that we shot ourselves in the foot, in regards to the NCPA. We have to remember that we are part of the group everyone. I do agree, however, that one well placed bureaucrat can muck up the works. The current mess with WNS seems to me to be due to a few misguided bureaucrats. At any rate, I don't think it serves the interest of the sport of caving to decry the end of recreational caving. Caving has changed since many of us started. We are victims of our own success. I think we should focus on making sure that there is a place for sport caving as well as research. I think there is room for everyone. On May 28, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Harvey DuChene wrote: Ken and all, Mostly I agree with you, even though I am an ist. If there is one place where I disagree, it's that the problem isn't just the ists. I alluded to this in my talk. We used to be able to go caving just for the hell of it. No permits, no paper work, no restrictions. Now we have to get permission to do damn near everything. The National Cave Protection Act is being used by some in your (and my) government to protect caves. Trouble is, the caves are being protected from...us. With the NCPA, we have shot ourselves in the foot. Maybe both feet. It's almost easier to go caving in some other country than it is to do it in our own, thanks to the NCPA. Because of certain individuals in bureaucratic positions, we are being shut out of the very caves we asked them to help us protect. Does anyone else besides me see irony, here? I sympathize, Ken. Part of the reason I don't go caving much anymore is because I'm old and decrepit. But part of it is because of the restrictive rules and regulations imposed by certain people in our government agencies. There is a caveat, here. Some (perhaps many) of the folks working for the agencies are very good people who are sympathetic to the view of cavers. But it only takes one well placed bureaucrat to muck up the works. The NCPA has, indeed, bitten us in the ass! Don't blame it all on the ists. Some (perhaps most) of the blame needs to placed where it belongs - on the crats. Harvey DuChene From: swr-boun...@caver.net mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net [mailto:swr-boun...@caver.net] On Behalf Of Ken Harrington Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 5:43 PM To: SWR Cavers Subject: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversery Gathering What a wonderful gathering of the great cave explorers of New Mexico this past weekend. These were the people who went where no one had gone before and probed the darkness to see what no one had seen before. They experimented with new designs for vertical gear to make things lighter and better for reaching those deep recesses of the mountains. There will never be another gathering like this. But it also was also
Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
I will add my two cents worth to this. I had the good fortune to discover Andy's Cave back in 1970. As a small cave in a difficult location to find, it did not receive much visitation to speak of. Within a couple of years of its discovery, it started to show the signs of wear and tear, much to my dismay. One of the extremely delicate rimstone dams in the back end of it was damaged by someone walking on it. I was not happy. Many years later, I returned again with Ransom on a trip and discovered that another dam was damaged. Several years after that, on my fourth or so trip in there, I found that about 10 of them were completely broken. The time since I was in there with Ransom to the time I returned as Trip Leader for that cave, all the entries had been made on TL guided trips. I am making the assumption that it was likely on one of those TL guided trips with competent cavers that the bulk of damage was done, most likely by one large footed inconsiderate SOB who either wasn't being led properly or did the damage while no one was looking. The area is now pretty well ruined as a result. I realize that it was done under the guidance of a trip leader for which there is seemingly no excuse for that happening, but I also shudder to think what would have happened if some unguided, unthinking, uncaring lug nut of a caver just decided to tromp through there. It is sad occurrences like this that have been responsible for the closing or tightening of permitting on various caves. In a sense, we have met the enemy and they are us… I agree with Aaron that there are still plenty of cave permits available to be had. It does take a bit more planning than usual to get those permits for specific time slots, but then again, there are a hell of lot more cavers out there now than there were way back when. I remember several summers in the Guads in the late sixties/seventies when we spent weeks up there on top of the ridge and virtually NEVER saw anyone else up there. Nearly everyone was off in Vietnam or elsewhere at the time. Now there's a whole new group of people coming. In fact, John's recent posting about the discovery in Lech was amazing to me in that I didn't recognize 80% of the names of people who were on that trip. Most of them looked a lot younger than I am. I also don't go caving out there as much as I'd like to, given that there's a couple thousand miles between me and the Guads, but I also don't ever seem to have much trouble to find some caving opportunities out there of my own choice. Unfortunately, the scourge of WNS has brought that tragedy to the forefront of consciousness in the minds of Americans in general and thus they complain that cavers, who may be a vector for the spread of the disease in their minds, should be kept out to stop that spread. We do what we can to stop that train of thought, but for the uninitiated, it is hard to make an argument in our favor. And that's all I have to say about that… Peter On May 29, 2012, at 8:39 AM, Aaron Stockton wrote: All I plan on writing something about this for the caver so I won't drag on. But I must say that there is plenty of recreational caving going on. I know this because I issue permits or give directions on a weekly if not daily basis. And most of these people are young. Just friday I met with two young guys from Ft. Bliss in El Paso. I sent them to Parks Ranch and Mudgett's and more excited they could not be. I doubt you will ever see them at a Regional or a Grotto meeting. Just as everyone that owns a gun is not going to join the NRA. Its just a fact. I caved for 5 years or so before I ever joined the NSS. What bothers me more are the new people that DO join the grottos and the Region but quickly drop out, yet continue to come to me for permits, directions, etc. If I didn't actually like ya'll so damn much, I would have probably dropped out already as opposed to constantly hear how things suck now and how much better they used to be. But seriously attitudes can do a great deal in retaining young people and new members. Remember, most of these people have already dealt with permits, bureaucracy, etc before coming to regional events and meetings. Hell, they grew up with bureaucracy in ever aspect of their lives! Remember, we never experienced being able to carry knives and cigarette lighters onto planes. My point being that a cave permit isn't going to keep someone that is truly interested in caving away. And sour attitudes won't either. But they will keep them out of our organizations. Aaron Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 12:12:10 To: hrduch...@gmail.com Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering Harvey, Ken, The argument about lack of freedom to do what we want in caves without
Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
Dear All, I have followed the comments this morning with interest. Indeed, it was great fun to participate in the celebration over the weekend and my compliments to the organizers who have obviously put in so much time and care in the preparations. The hard work definitely showed in the result! And excellent to hear of the history of caves in the area as experienced by the members who have participated for decades. As a science person, I want to point out that it is not the science which is somehow getting in the way of recreational caving. I would hope, in fact, that additional information about the geology, hydrology, and biology of a cave system would make it even more interesting for those who wish to cave for fun. It is true that there are caves so special, or fragile, or uniquely worthy of protection in some way that they are not available for recreation, but can sometimes be made available for scientific research. I think this is not something that science has to apologize for. Having just returned from a meeting and cave and mine work in Sardinia, I have a new appreciation for what protection of caves can do. Being there and seeing what has been done to caves that have been intersected by mining activities over the course of history has given a new meaning to the term plundered in my mind. Apparently, only being called after a saint (Santa Barbara, the patron saint of mining) has saved one cave from plunder, but the amazing damage to the other caves makes me appreciate all over again the role of federal, state, and private cave owner protection of the underground wilderness. Are permits and arrangements a pain in the ass? You bet! Are caves worth the hassle? You bet! Are the kids in our NMT Grotto anxious and willing to cave both for recreation and science? You bet! I wouldn't worry about the next generation. I think they will be fine cavers and good stewards of the underground. Penny On May 29, 2012, at 6:39 AM, Aaron Stockton wrote: All I plan on writing something about this for the caver so I won't drag on. But I must say that there is plenty of recreational caving going on. I know this because I issue permits or give directions on a weekly if not daily basis. And most of these people are young. Just friday I met with two young guys from Ft. Bliss in El Paso. I sent them to Parks Ranch and Mudgett's and more excited they could not be. I doubt you will ever see them at a Regional or a Grotto meeting. Just as everyone that owns a gun is not going to join the NRA. Its just a fact. I caved for 5 years or so before I ever joined the NSS. What bothers me more are the new people that DO join the grottos and the Region but quickly drop out, yet continue to come to me for permits, directions, etc. If I didn't actually like ya'll so damn much, I would have probably dropped out already as opposed to constantly hear how things suck now and how much better they used to be. But seriously attitudes can do a great deal in retaining young people and new members. Remember, most of these people have already dealt with permits, bureaucracy, etc before coming to regional events and meetings. Hell, they grew up with bureaucracy in ever aspect of their lives! Remember, we never experienced being able to carry knives and cigarette lighters onto planes. My point being that a cave permit isn't going to keep someone that is truly interested in caving away. And sour attitudes won't either. But they will keep them out of our organizations. Aaron Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Steve Peerman gypca...@comcast.net Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 12:12:10 To: hrduch...@gmail.com Cc: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering Harvey, Ken, The argument about lack of freedom to do what we want in caves without restrictions is much the same as arguments with any activity that humans pursue in an civilized society. Freedom is not free. With freedom comes responsibility. There is a tendency to feel that rules are for everyone else. I don't agree that we shot ourselves in the foot, in regards to the NCPA. We have to remember that we are part of the group everyone. I do agree, however, that one well placed bureaucrat can muck up the works. The current mess with WNS seems to me to be due to a few misguided bureaucrats. At any rate, I don't think it serves the interest of the sport of caving to decry the end of recreational caving. Caving has changed since many of us started. We are victims of our own success. I think we should focus on making sure that there is a place for sport caving as well as research. I think there is room for everyone. On May 28, 2012, at 11:13 PM, Harvey DuChene wrote: Ken and all, Mostly I agree with you, even though I am an ist. If there is one place where I
Re: [SWR] SWR 50th Anniversary Gathering
All, I, too, have been following the beads of conversation here. What I got out of this last Saturday's gathering, besides all of the fellowship and caring (several really seemed to express their care about my safety on the drive Saturday night back to Socorro - thanks), was the terrific energy that past and present cave explorers have put into their seeking of underground adventure. Caving adventure is NOT all lost. It is just harder to find. Why, just today, I visited a fissure cave in the Jemez near San Antonio hot springs that I didn't know was there. It wasn't big, but it was new to me and the geology of the tufa rock was amazing and needs to be explored by someone certainly more knowledgeable of this formation than I am. The fissure cave was in a huge wave of tufa bent and folded. On one face, it looked like tufa flowstone. The cave wasn't long or deep, but it was a cave touching briefly into darkness, then ending abruptly. And, it was a beautiful wildflower hike through the woods to get to it. I think caving today will just take more energy from those who seek the underground exploration adventure that the now-old-farts accomplished in the past. Yes, much recreational caving may be out the window, but I thought most of us were enticed into caving by the efforts we put into digging, pushing new passages, and climbing up and down those daunting ridges to check rumors of a cave somewhere up or down those slopes. And I remember that we were avidly desirous of protecting what we found, if only so that it might be there for later peoples who follow our tracks. I have led very few recreational caving trips in the last 20 years and have encouraged new as well as curious past cavers to go out there and find the caves. And they did, or they found leaders like John who can open their eyes and improve their skills to experience what we all want to protect - above, below, inside, and on the earth. We have gotten away from protecting the earth. It's not just about us; it's about the Earth, isn't it. Further, I hope these threads of excellent conversation will get published in the *Southwestern Cavers* for all to ponder over. Linda Starr On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Penny Boston pbos...@nmt.edu wrote: Dear All, I have followed the comments this morning with interest. Indeed, it was great fun to participate in the celebration over the weekend and my compliments to the organizers who have obviously put in so much time and care in the preparations. The hard work definitely showed in the result! And excellent to hear of the history of caves in the area as experienced by the members who have participated for decades. As a science person, I want to point out that it is not the science which is somehow getting in the way of recreational caving. I would hope, in fact, that additional information about the geology, hydrology, and biology of a cave system would make it even more interesting for those who wish to cave for fun. It is true that there are caves so special, or fragile, or uniquely worthy of protection in some way that they are not available for recreation, but can sometimes be made available for scientific research. I think this is not something that science has to apologize for. Having just returned from a meeting and cave and mine work in Sardinia, I have a new appreciation for what protection of caves can do. Being there and seeing what has been done to caves that have been intersected by mining activities over the course of history has given a new meaning to the term plundered in my mind. Apparently, only being called after a saint (Santa Barbara, the patron saint of mining) has saved one cave from plunder, but the amazing damage to the other caves makes me appreciate all over again the role of federal, state, and private cave owner protection of the underground wilderness. Are permits and arrangements a pain in the ass? You bet! Are caves worth the hassle? You bet! Are the kids in our NMT Grotto anxious and willing to cave both for recreation and science? You bet! I wouldn't worry about the next generation. I think they will be fine cavers and good stewards of the underground. Penny On May 29, 2012, at 6:39 AM, Aaron Stockton wrote: All I plan on writing something about this for the caver so I won't drag on. But I must say that there is plenty of recreational caving going on. I know this because I issue permits or give directions on a weekly if not daily basis. And most of these people are young. Just friday I met with two young guys from Ft. Bliss in El Paso. I sent them to Parks Ranch and Mudgett's and more excited they could not be. I doubt you will ever see them at a Regional or a Grotto meeting. Just as everyone that owns a gun is not going to join the NRA. Its just a fact. I caved for 5 years or so before I ever joined the NSS. What bothers me more are the new people that DO join the grottos and the Region but
[Texascavers] Where have these folks been for the last five years?
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/29/11939375-disease-wiping-out-bats-hits-new-species-spreads-west?lite
[Texascavers] purchasing new AMCS books
I have been reminded that I could also sell copies of the new AMCS books at Strickland's pond party on June 16. I'll have some there, but you'll have to track me down. I won't be setting up a table and sitting at it all the time; it's a party, after all. -- Mixon God created the world in six days. On the seventh day, while God rested, the Devil created religion. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
