Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[George Veni via Texascavers]

Wm,

Thanks for the correction, elaboration, and support.

George


Sent from my mobile phone



George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215
USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org




 Original message 
From: Wm Shrewsbury via Texascavers 
Date: 2014/12/10 16:09 (GMT-07:00)
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal


(Now at home and able to perhaps reply)

Speaking on behalf of the NSS Board we agree with everything George Veni has
posted below concerning KIP, its purpose, and how they handle their
material. I must make one clarification though: the NSS did not sent any
Grotto newsletters to KIP.

The collections that are in question were donated by a Grotto and included
their exchange newsletters. The did not and will not send our archive of
newsletters (every Grotto is required to send copies to the NSS for our own
library archive, so we have a lot) to KIP. We do not own the copyright to
those publications, and as such will not distribute them for digital
archiving.

We did send our own publications for archiving, and due to the vast majority
of it being performed from a large donation (it is a destructive process,
and the donor understood the pages would be separated), we have found that
there are a few, at most, that may have locations imbedded in the article.
Since it is NSS policy, until we catch up with the rest of the world, to
conceal locations we will mark over the relevant words/sentences and submit
those for substitution.

We too would encourage Grottos to submit their reviewed (and if necessary,
redacted) archives to KIP. Archives of NSS Publications that have not been
redacted may be found in our Members section: 
www.caves.org.

Cave softly,

Wm Shrewsbury
President, National Speleological Society

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of
George Veni via Texascavers
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 4:38 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

Mark and everyone,

I've been traveling and haven't had the chance to check the KIP website. I
called the KIP team to get the latest details but haven't been able to
connect yet, so here is what I know so far.

KIP does not post anything unless it is described as open access (available
freely to all) or it has explicit permission, as it does from TSA to post
the Texas Caver.

As I understand, NSS gave permission for KIP to post many of its materials,
which included some Pennsylvania newsletters in its library. Some
Pennsylvania cavers saw their newsletters and complained. Word quickly
spread. KIP immediately withdrew those materials and others provided by NSS.
Currently the KIP team is verifying what material provided by NSS the NSS
had authority to post and which needs permission of grottos, regions, etc.
It is professionally and legally vital for KIP to have proper permission, so
removing those publications is necessary  until clear permission is in
place.

I encourage everyone who has legal access to publications to continue
posting them to KIP. If there is information in a publication you consider
sensitive, just specify it and it can be redacted. Some organizations post
their materials immediately to KIP while others ask it not be posted for a
specified period. Some want certain information redacted and some don't.
 The KIP team will work to meet the needs of the publishers.

The idea of creating password-protection for the materials isn't practical.
First, it is contrary to KIP's open access purpose. Second, KIP hosts
publications from over 20 countries and even more organizations. Setting up
password protection for their members isn't practical and best left to each
organization to set up on its own on its own website if it wants such
protection.

In the worst case and some of the material does not reappear on KIP, first,
don't blame KIP. Complain to the person or organization that published the
material for not giving KIP permission to post it. Second, keep in mind that
KIP has a private archive with scanned publications that it does not have
permission to post. The KIP team is seeking permission for this material.
Even where permission has been refused, KIP is designed for the long-term.
KIP retains those digital files (which it can legally do as long as it
doesn't distribute them) should the situation change some day. This has
happened as organizations change priorities and publications go out of print
(or the last copy is lost in a fire) and the publisher no longer sees any
benefit in not freely posting their materials.

If I learn anything more of relevance, I'll be sure to post it to this list.
Anyone wishing to distribute this message to others is welcome to 

Re: [Texascavers] [greater_houston_grotto] Support Texas Caves when Xmas shopping!

[Charles Goldsmith via Texascavers]

Linda, does the TCMA have any numbers as to how this has helped?  Donations
last year vs YTD this year?

Thanks!
Charles


On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 8:21 AM, Linda Palit via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> The link from the website provides a larger percentage donation, up to
> .05% I think. Smile is .005% but can also be used at same time as link from
> TCMA page.
>
> Thanks to all using these methods of donation.
>
> Linda Palit
>
>
> On Tuesday, December 2, 2014, Chris Lafferty via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>
>> Great info, Mallory.
>>
>> Is the relative donation to TCMA different if we use the Amazon link
>> found on the TCMA website rather than Amazon Smile? I heard somewhere that
>> SCCi encouraged shoppers to use their website link instead of Smile because
>> they received a larger donation.
>>
>> Can anyone confirm?
>>
>> Chris Lafferty
>> chris.laffer...@gmail.com
>> On Dec 2, 2014 12:59 PM, "Mallory Mayeux mmay...@gmail.com
>> [greater_houston_grotto]"  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> GAH! I just forgot to do this so it reminded me to tell everyone to do
>>> this.
>>>
>>> Some of you may use Amazon.com liberally when Xmas shopping. (I do). Did
>>> you know you can also shop at smile.amazon.com and help Texas caves?
>>> The following is a direct explanation of Smile from their website.  "When
>>> you shop at smile.amazon.com, you’ll find the exact same low prices,
>>> vast selection and convenient shopping experience as Amazon.com, with the
>>> added bonus that Amazon will donate a portion of the purchase price to your
>>> favorite charitable organization. You can choose from nearly one million
>>> organizations to support. The AmazonSmile Foundation will donate 0.5%
>>> of the purchase price from your eligible AmazonSmile purchases."
>>>
>>> The Texas Cave Management Association is a listed Amazon charitable
>>> organization. TCMA, as you know, owns Robber Baron, Whirlpool, Deep/Punkin
>>> and manages O9you know, the majority of the caves we've enjoyed this
>>> year. I recently ordered an LSU-themed dress and it came in exactly the
>>> same as if I'd ordered it on Amazon.com. It's totally legit and I strongly
>>> encourage all of you Amazon shoppers to support TCMA using the site!
>>>
>>> Just go to smile.amazon.com and it will ask you to pick a charity.
>>> Search "Texas Cave Management Association" and click on it.
>>>
>>> Have a great day!
>>>
>>> Mallory
>>>
>>>  __._,_.___
>>>   --
>>> Posted by: Mallory Mayeux 
>>> --
>>> Reply via web post
>>> 
>>> •  Reply to sender  •  Reply to group  • Start a New Topic
>>> 
>>> • Messages in this topic
>>> 
>>> (1)
>>> Visit Your Group
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>>  [image: Yahoo! Groups]
>>> 
>>> • Privacy 
>>> • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use
>>> 
>>>
>>>.
>>>
>>>  __,_._,___
>>>
>>
> ___
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[Wm Shrewsbury via Texascavers]

(Now at home and able to perhaps reply)

Speaking on behalf of the NSS Board we agree with everything George Veni has
posted below concerning KIP, its purpose, and how they handle their
material. I must make one clarification though: the NSS did not sent any
Grotto newsletters to KIP.

The collections that are in question were donated by a Grotto and included
their exchange newsletters. The did not and will not send our archive of
newsletters (every Grotto is required to send copies to the NSS for our own
library archive, so we have a lot) to KIP. We do not own the copyright to
those publications, and as such will not distribute them for digital
archiving.

We did send our own publications for archiving, and due to the vast majority
of it being performed from a large donation (it is a destructive process,
and the donor understood the pages would be separated), we have found that
there are a few, at most, that may have locations imbedded in the article.
Since it is NSS policy, until we catch up with the rest of the world, to
conceal locations we will mark over the relevant words/sentences and submit
those for substitution.

We too would encourage Grottos to submit their reviewed (and if necessary,
redacted) archives to KIP. Archives of NSS Publications that have not been
redacted may be found in our Members section: www.caves.org.

Cave softly,

Wm Shrewsbury
President, National Speleological Society

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of
George Veni via Texascavers
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 4:38 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

Mark and everyone, 

I've been traveling and haven't had the chance to check the KIP website. I
called the KIP team to get the latest details but haven't been able to
connect yet, so here is what I know so far.

KIP does not post anything unless it is described as open access (available
freely to all) or it has explicit permission, as it does from TSA to post
the Texas Caver.

As I understand, NSS gave permission for KIP to post many of its materials,
which included some Pennsylvania newsletters in its library. Some
Pennsylvania cavers saw their newsletters and complained. Word quickly
spread. KIP immediately withdrew those materials and others provided by NSS.
Currently the KIP team is verifying what material provided by NSS the NSS
had authority to post and which needs permission of grottos, regions, etc.
It is professionally and legally vital for KIP to have proper permission, so
removing those publications is necessary  until clear permission is in
place.

I encourage everyone who has legal access to publications to continue
posting them to KIP. If there is information in a publication you consider
sensitive, just specify it and it can be redacted. Some organizations post
their materials immediately to KIP while others ask it not be posted for a
specified period. Some want certain information redacted and some don't.
 The KIP team will work to meet the needs of the publishers.

The idea of creating password-protection for the materials isn't practical.
First, it is contrary to KIP's open access purpose. Second, KIP hosts
publications from over 20 countries and even more organizations. Setting up
password protection for their members isn't practical and best left to each
organization to set up on its own on its own website if it wants such
protection. 

In the worst case and some of the material does not reappear on KIP, first,
don't blame KIP. Complain to the person or organization that published the
material for not giving KIP permission to post it. Second, keep in mind that
KIP has a private archive with scanned publications that it does not have
permission to post. The KIP team is seeking permission for this material.
Even where permission has been refused, KIP is designed for the long-term.
KIP retains those digital files (which it can legally do as long as it
doesn't distribute them) should the situation change some day. This has
happened as organizations change priorities and publications go out of print
(or the last copy is lost in a fire) and the publisher no longer sees any
benefit in not freely posting their materials. 

If I learn anything more of relevance, I'll be sure to post it to this list.
Anyone wishing to distribute this message to others is welcome to do so.

George


Sent from my mobile phone 

 

George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215
USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org 




 Original message 
From: Mark Minton via Texascavers  
Date: 2014/12/10 08:04 (GMT-07:00) 
To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
Subject: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal 

George,

   According to the Karst Information Portal home page, grotto

Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[George Veni via Texascavers]

Mark and everyone,

I've been traveling and haven't had the chance to check the KIP website. I 
called the KIP team to get the latest details but haven't been able to connect 
yet, so here is what I know so far.

KIP does not post anything unless it is described as open access (available 
freely to all) or it has explicit permission, as it does from TSA to post the 
Texas Caver.

As I understand, NSS gave permission for KIP to post many of its materials, 
which included some Pennsylvania newsletters in its library. Some Pennsylvania 
cavers saw their newsletters and complained. Word quickly spread. KIP 
immediately withdrew those materials and others provided by NSS. Currently the 
KIP team is verifying what material provided by NSS the NSS had authority to 
post and which needs permission of grottos, regions, etc. It is professionally 
and legally vital for KIP to have proper permission, so removing those 
publications is necessary  until clear permission is in place.

I encourage everyone who has legal access to publications to continue posting 
them to KIP. If there is information in a publication you consider sensitive, 
just specify it and it can be redacted. Some organizations post their materials 
immediately to KIP while others ask it not be posted for a specified period. 
Some want certain information redacted and some don't.  The KIP team will work 
to meet the needs of the publishers.

The idea of creating password-protection for the materials isn't practical. 
First, it is contrary to KIP's open access purpose. Second, KIP hosts 
publications from over 20 countries and even more organizations. Setting up 
password protection for their members isn't practical and best left to each 
organization to set up on its own on its own website if it wants such 
protection.

In the worst case and some of the material does not reappear on KIP, first, 
don't blame KIP. Complain to the person or organization that published the 
material for not giving KIP permission to post it. Second, keep in mind that 
KIP has a private archive with scanned publications that it does not have 
permission to post. The KIP team is seeking permission for this material. Even 
where permission has been refused, KIP is designed for the long-term. KIP 
retains those digital files (which it can legally do as long as it doesn't 
distribute them) should the situation change some day. This has happened as 
organizations change priorities and publications go out of print (or the last 
copy is lost in a fire) and the publisher no longer sees any benefit in not 
freely posting their materials.

If I learn anything more of relevance, I'll be sure to post it to this list. 
Anyone wishing to distribute this message to others is welcome to do so.

George


Sent from my mobile phone



George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215
USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org




 Original message 
From: Mark Minton via Texascavers 
Date: 2014/12/10 08:04 (GMT-07:00)
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal


George,

   According to the Karst Information Portal home page, grotto newsletters
are soon to be withdrawn from open access. That seems like addressing
the potential problem of location information with a sledgehammer.
What's the point of having things on KIP if no one can get to them?
Maybe they should be put into a special "members only" area where NSS
members can log in with their NSS number and some other credentials to
see the newsletters. I've been actively promoting editors to make their
newsletters available through KIP and many have agreed. Now that all
looks like it might have been for naught. :-(

Mark

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Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[Mixon Bill via Texascavers]

For whatever it's worth, I had nothing to do with sending Huntsville  
Grotto News issues to KIP. Haven't been in Windy City for 34 years.  
Does seem like a bit presumptuous for one grotto to submit another  
grotto's newsletters unless in cooperation with the other grotto.


I've never been a secrecy type, but I can imagine that many people are  
worried about KIP in general. It does have a lot of publications  
containing cave locations, and will no doubt get more. For example, I  
have published lists (albeit pretty obsolete by now) of cave locations  
in Missouri and Alabama. Data like that are not protected by  
copyright. It is a great boon that these days one can find, say, the  
atomic weight of lanthanum in about 15 seconds without pulling a book  
from the shelf. But that also works for just about everything else.  
Get over it.-- Mixon


Certainly the game is rigged: If you don't bet, you can't win.

You may "reply" to the address this message
(unless it's a TexasCavers list post)
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org

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Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[Alex Sproul via Texascavers]

I discovered that posting this morning, too. I think it's KIP that is 
overreacting by 
removing ALL grotto newsletters; the issue was just raised in the past few days 
by Huntsville, based on a member who discovered the KIP trove and worried 
about sensitive info in older issues. I'm not aware of any other recent 
complaints.

I'm in their Yahoo group, and responded that they should instead redact any 
sensitive info (which I suspect is very little). It's a large chore, but easy 
enough to 
do.

Most, if not all, of the 351 HG issues online were sent in by Windy City (Bill 
Mixon) and not HG, which may be the cause of the kerfuffle.

I've written to KIP Liaison Todd Chavez, urging him to drag his feet on the 
removal until we can calm the waters.

Hopefully we can preempt this, and your efforts (and Bill's and mine) will not 
have been in vain.

On 10 Dec 2014 at 10:03, Mark Minton via Texascavers wrote:

From:   Mark Minton via Texascavers 

To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date sent:  Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:03:45 -0500
Send reply to:  texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject:[Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

> George,
> 
>According to the Karst Information Portal home page, grotto newsletters
> are soon to be withdrawn from open access. That seems like addressing
> the potential problem of location information with a sledgehammer.
> What's the point of having things on KIP if no one can get to them?
> Maybe they should be put into a special "members only" area where NSS
> members can log in with their NSS number and some other credentials to
> see the newsletters. I've been actively promoting editors to make their
> newsletters available through KIP and many have agreed. Now that all
> looks like it might have been for naught. :-(
> 
> Mark




-- 
Alex Sproul
NSS 8086RL/FE
Acting NSS Webmaster
www.caves.org
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Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

RD,

   It would be fine with me if any organization that wanted one could have
a private members area. Once KIP got set up for that, it should be
pretty simple to offer it to anyone. Still sort of defeats the purpose
of open access, though. Generally speaking, cave location information
is not considered particularly sensitive in most parts of the world.
The U. S. seems to be especially concerned, perhaps occasionally
justifiably so, but mostly I think it's just paranoia.

Mark

On Wed, December 10, 2014 10:19 am, R D Milhollin via Texascavers wrote:
> Mark,
> My understanding is that the KIP is an international repository, so the
> "member's only" access limitation you suggest would have to be extended to
> all nation's "National" Speleological Association in order to be fair.
> Perhaps the NSS Archives Committee could be encouraged to set up a similar
> service but only for US cave-related organization's publications. Since
> the scanned newsletters are already in place on KIP, transferring those to
> that new "local" portal would seem to be a pretty simple process, and the
> collection could reside behind the NSS member "paywall".
> RD
>   From: Mark Minton via Texascavers 
>  To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>  Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 9:03 AM
>  Subject: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal
>
> George,
>
>   According to the Karst Information Portal home page, grotto newsletters
> are soon to be withdrawn from open access. That seems like addressing
> the potential problem of location information with a sledgehammer.
> What's the point of having things on KIP if no one can get to them?
> Maybe they should be put into a special "members only" area where NSS
> members can log in with their NSS number and some other credentials to
> see the newsletters. I've been actively promoting editors to make their
> newsletters available through KIP and many have agreed. Now that all
> looks like it might have been for naught. :-(
>
> Mark

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Re: [Texascavers] [greater_houston_grotto] Support Texas Caves when Xmas shopping!

[Linda Palit via Texascavers]

The link from the website provides a larger percentage donation, up to .05%
I think. Smile is .005% but can also be used at same time as link from TCMA
page.

Thanks to all using these methods of donation.

Linda Palit

On Tuesday, December 2, 2014, Chris Lafferty via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> Great info, Mallory.
>
> Is the relative donation to TCMA different if we use the Amazon link found
> on the TCMA website rather than Amazon Smile? I heard somewhere that SCCi
> encouraged shoppers to use their website link instead of Smile because they
> received a larger donation.
>
> Can anyone confirm?
>
> Chris Lafferty
> chris.laffer...@gmail.com
> 
> On Dec 2, 2014 12:59 PM, "Mallory Mayeux mmay...@gmail.com
> 
> [greater_houston_grotto]"  >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> GAH! I just forgot to do this so it reminded me to tell everyone to do
>> this.
>>
>> Some of you may use Amazon.com liberally when Xmas shopping. (I do). Did
>> you know you can also shop at smile.amazon.com and help Texas caves? The
>> following is a direct explanation of Smile from their website.  "When
>> you shop at smile.amazon.com, you’ll find the exact same low prices,
>> vast selection and convenient shopping experience as Amazon.com, with the
>> added bonus that Amazon will donate a portion of the purchase price to your
>> favorite charitable organization. You can choose from nearly one million
>> organizations to support. The AmazonSmile Foundation will donate 0.5% of
>> the purchase price from your eligible AmazonSmile purchases."
>>
>> The Texas Cave Management Association is a listed Amazon charitable
>> organization. TCMA, as you know, owns Robber Baron, Whirlpool, Deep/Punkin
>> and manages O9you know, the majority of the caves we've enjoyed this
>> year. I recently ordered an LSU-themed dress and it came in exactly the
>> same as if I'd ordered it on Amazon.com. It's totally legit and I strongly
>> encourage all of you Amazon shoppers to support TCMA using the site!
>>
>> Just go to smile.amazon.com and it will ask you to pick a charity.
>> Search "Texas Cave Management Association" and click on it.
>>
>> Have a great day!
>>
>> Mallory
>>
>>  __._,_.___
>>   --
>> Posted by: Mallory Mayeux > >
>> --
>> Reply via web post
>> 
>> •  Reply to sender
>> 
>> •  Reply to group
>> 
>> • Start a New Topic
>> 
>> • Messages in this topic
>> 
>> (1)
>> Visit Your Group
>> 
>>
>>
>>  [image: Yahoo! Groups]
>> 
>> • Privacy 
>> • Unsubscribe
>> 
>> • Terms of Use 
>>
>>.
>>
>>  __,_._,___
>>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[R D Milhollin via Texascavers]

Mark,
My understanding is that the KIP is an international repository, so the 
"member's only" access limitation you suggest would have to be extended to all 
nation's "National" Speleological Association in order to be fair. Perhaps the 
NSS Archives Committee could be encouraged to set up a similar service but only 
for US cave-related organization's publications. Since the scanned newsletters 
are already in place on KIP, transferring those to that new "local" portal 
would seem to be a pretty simple process, and the collection could reside 
behind the NSS member "paywall". 
RD
  From: Mark Minton via Texascavers 
 To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 9:03 AM
 Subject: [Texascavers] Karst Information Portal
   
George,

  According to the Karst Information Portal home page, grotto newsletters
are soon to be withdrawn from open access. That seems like addressing
the potential problem of location information with a sledgehammer.
What's the point of having things on KIP if no one can get to them?
Maybe they should be put into a special "members only" area where NSS
members can log in with their NSS number and some other credentials to
see the newsletters. I've been actively promoting editors to make their
newsletters available through KIP and many have agreed. Now that all
looks like it might have been for naught. :-(

Mark

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Re: [Texascavers] Honey Creek Cave Tank Hauls, Jan 2015

[Ellie Watson via Texascavers]

Cavers,

The Honey Creek Cave Tank Haul is almost here and I only have 15
people committed for both weekends combined. We need tons more than
that. If you are committed to come, I need you to please contact me by
email or fb message with the dates you will be there. We need as much
help as we can get and I need to know we can count on you to be there.
Please contact me asap if you are coming! Spread the word.

Hope everyone is getting their gear ready. You will want to have your
best shoes, best lights, and best gear for this long haul.
WETSUIT...its not too late to shop around for a good deal and everyone
going into the cave must wear a wetsuit. You can buy them used from a
dive shop, craigslist, or Play it Again Sports. You can buy them new
from many places, good deals at Sierra Trading Post. You may also rent
a wetsuit from a dive shop but you will want to wear clothes on the
outside because if you ruin it, you pay full price. The water
temperature is about 68 degrees. I recommend a full body wetsuit if
you get cold and a farmer john if you run hot.

Please don't hesitate to contact me for more information,

Ellie
509-899-0007

Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/events/695975567146293/

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Ellie Watson  wrote:
> Attention Cavers
>
> The dates are set for the next Honey Creek Cave Tank Haul and we need your
> help to haul dive/cave camp gear on January 24th and January 31st. I am
> recruiting volunteers so please contact me off list with what dates you
> would like to participate.
>
> It's been less than a year since the last major exploration effort in Honey
> Creek and now the divers are back for more, this time with two extra divers.
> In 2015, Dr. Jean Krejca, James Brown, David Moore and Matt Turner will
> embark upon their journey to explore the furthest reaches of the cave and we
> will need even more help than before, like 50-60 people!
>
> We can use all types of skill and fitness levels if you are up to the
> challenge. At no point will you be underwater, diving or cave camping.
>
> Honey Creek Cave is the longest cave in Texas at over 20 miles long. The
> legendary Tank Haul trip includes walking, salamandering, crawling, and "The
> Mud and The Crud". The trip is challenging but very fun. Some people have
> done the trip in and out in as few as 4 hours, others take their time and
> take up to 12 hours. Average pace takes 8-10 hours round trip.
>
> GEAR: Honey Creek Cave is a water cave and you will need a wetsuit and
> harness with d-ring to be lowered on cable down a 145ft man-made shaft.
> Bring a helmet and small pack for storing personal gear like lights,
> batteries plenty of water and snacks. I recommend wearing sturdy lace-up
> shoes, knee pads, elbow pads, and gloves. I also recommend storing supplies
> in a watertight container like a nalgene bottle. The packs of group gear
> shouldn't weigh more than 30 pounds.
>
> Come one weekend or both!
>
> Please don't hesitate to contact me for more information,
>
> Ellie
> 509-899-0007
>
> Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/events/695975567146293/
>
>
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[Texascavers] Karst Information Portal

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

George,

   According to the Karst Information Portal home page, grotto newsletters
are soon to be withdrawn from open access. That seems like addressing
the potential problem of location information with a sledgehammer.
What's the point of having things on KIP if no one can get to them?
Maybe they should be put into a special "members only" area where NSS
members can log in with their NSS number and some other credentials to
see the newsletters. I've been actively promoting editors to make their
newsletters available through KIP and many have agreed. Now that all
looks like it might have been for naught. :-(

Mark

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