Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[Jerry via Texascavers]

That's interesting. I think of leadership as not whining but doing. Leadership 
is not asking others to do something they are not comfortable with or causes 
them to have moral dilemmas, especially when it only serves to make you 
comfortable. Leadership is trying to understand another person's perspective 
without cramming it down their throat in a "My way or the Highway" manner. 

Our "poorly organized" effort got the gate constructed in a period of less than 
a month from first finding the vandalism, has reached its financial goal 
(thanks to all that contributed !), did it without needing to make formal 
overtures to the "54 SP500 companies that are headquartered in Texas", did so 
without creating a massive headache by making sure that there was a 501(C)3 
organization receiving the funds for shuttling to a third party, and did so by 
using a poor-boy version of crowd-sourcing from within the caving community. No 
excuses for dinner tonight.

If I insulted you, I apologize. But as you said in your first email or so, 
that's your issue.

Thank you for your donation.
 
Jerry.


-Original Message-
From: Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
To: texas cavers tc 
Sent: Thu, Jun 23, 2016 7:17 pm
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

Leadership - It's about addressing the issues, not targeting the 
messengers,Leadership - It's about getting things done even without global 
consensus, Leadership - It's about setting your organization to succeed - like 
setting up Ellenberger formation solid tax deductible donation 
options,Leadership - It's about not insulting your potential donors or 
participants,And I don't want to start my next email message with 'Excuses, 
it's what's for dinner tonight',RK> Date: Thu, 
23 Jun 2016 20:37:49 -0400 > To: texascavers@texascavers.com > Subject: Re: 
[Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update : > From: 
texascavers@texascavers.com >  > Rafal, >  > If it was so easy, I challenge you 
to step up and make it so. From the  > experience I have had dealing with both 
organizations, well-meaning but  > time and energy constrained cavers, and the 
odd troll here and there,  > it's anything but easy to get folks to agree on 
anything, even more so  > when money is involved. >  > Yes, Diana, I could have 
appealed to either the TCMA or TSS to be the  > funds collector for the 
Powell's Cave Project so that a handful of  > folks could get a minuscule tax 
deduction if they wanted one. But I  > felt it was a conflict of interest to 
ask the TSS to do so as I'm an  > officer on the Board. That won't matter to 
some folks but it does to  > me. The TCMA is a fine organization doing 
excellent work for Texas  > caves and cavers but they take awhile to make 
things happen and this  > gate needed to be done quickly. >  > So, there you go 
- the usual simple solutions to the worlds problems  > aren't actually all that 
simple. Please keep that in mind as you  > instruct the world as to how it 
should be done. In the mean time, I  > haven't seen you two actually donating 
anything but grief. Make  > something happen or get off the soap box. >  > 
Jerry. >  > -Original Message- > From: Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
 > To: texascavers  > 
Sent: Thu, Jun 23, 2016 5:09 pm > Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate 
Project update : >  > What did you assume that isn't true? >  > Caves and karst 
in Texas are an incredible resource that should be  > protected and set aside - 
 the case for which should be easily made  > especially when one considers lack 
of green space as compared to  > American East and West. If Texas cavers could 
reach around and outside  > of its own community, get funding from private 
donors, one could not  > only gate dozens of habitat sensitive caves but also 
set up a network  > of karst preserves. For goodness sake, there are 54 SP500 
companies  > headquarters in Texas!  All that takes is ability to share your 
vision  > with others, show them the resource you are trying to protect and  > 
reasons why. And yes, sometimes take them above and below the ground,  > get 
their hands dirty. >  > And your concern is a nonexistent moral dilemma? >  > 
RK >  > > Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:37:30 -0600 > > To: 
texascavers@texascavers.com > > Subject: 
Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update : > > From: 
texascavers@texascavers.com > > > > Then 
why did you ask, for Pete's sake ? > > > > Jerry. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > 
> > > On Jun 23, 2016, at 4:23 PM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers  > 
>  > wrote: > > 
> >> No change in my statement. If someone is philanthropic in order to  > gain 
access to the cave, that's a > >> wrong reason for 

Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[Fritz Holt via Texascavers]

Diana,
I asked the same question but the response did not fully benefit the donor or 
the donee so I sent the money without the benefit of a tax deduction. 
Fritz Holt
fritz...@ail.com

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:39 PM, Diana Tomchick via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
> 
> If you would like to get a company or private donor interested in donating 
> large sums of money, it would help if the donors knew they could use it as a 
> deduction on their federal income taxes.
> 
> Which leads me to ask once again (since the first time I asked this question 
> it went unanswered), what would it take to make a donation to the Powell’s 
> Cave gating project tax deductible? The last time I checked the web site, the 
> Texas Speleological Survey is a registered 501(c)(3) organization, both Jim 
> Kennedy and Jerry Atkinson are Director.s Was there no way that the money 
> couldn’t have been donated to the TSS, which would then use the money to fund 
> the protection of Powell’s Cave? Or failing that, through the TCMA?
> 
> Why do we have these organizations in Texas if they can’t be used to leverage 
> donations to protect these important resources?
> 
> Diana
> 
> **
> Diana R. Tomchick
> Professor
> Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> Rm. ND10.214A
> Dallas, TX 75390-8816
> diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
> (214) 645-6383 (phone)
> (214) 645-6353 (fax)
> 
>> On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:09 PM, texascavers@texascavers.com wrote:
>> 
>> What did you assume that isn't true?
>> 
>> Caves and karst in Texas are an incredible resource that should be protected 
>> and set aside -  the case for which should be easily made especially when 
>> one considers lack of green space as compared to American East and West. If 
>> Texas cavers could reach around and outside of its own community, get 
>> funding from private donors, one could not only gate dozens of habitat 
>> sensitive caves but also set up a network of karst preserves. For goodness 
>> sake, there are 54 SP500 companies headquarters in Texas!  All that takes is 
>> ability to share your vision with others, show them the resource you are 
>> trying to protect and reasons why. And yes, sometimes take them above and 
>> below the ground, get their hands dirty.
>> 
>> And your concern is a nonexistent moral dilemma?
>> 
>> RK
>> 
>>> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:37:30 -0600
>>> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
>>> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
>>> 
>>> Then why did you ask, for Pete's sake ?
>>> 
>>> Jerry.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Jun 23, 2016, at 4:23 PM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
  wrote:
 
 No change in my statement. If someone is philanthropic in order to gain 
 access to the cave, that's a
 wrong reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not yours. If
 someone is taken through the cave as a thank you for helping to preserve
 an incredible resource, that's your way of expressing generosity - not
 the issue of the donor.
 
 RK
 
 
> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:18:37 -0600
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
> 
> When they ask ahead of actually donating, it's a tacit request. That 
> becomes my problem.
> 
> Jerry.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:57 PM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> If someone is philanthropic in order to gain access to the cave, that's 
>> a wrong reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not yours. If 
>> someone is taken through the cave as a thank you for helping to preserve 
>> an incredible resource, that's your way of expressing generosity - not 
>> the issue of the donor.
>> 
>> RK
>> 
>> 
>>> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:05:24 -0600
>>> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
>>> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
>>> 
>>> Rafal,
>>> 
>>> I'm not comfortable with donations for the greater good becoming 
>>> entitlements for special privileges. It would be unfortunate if that 
>>> becomes the principal reason for being philanthropic.
>>> 
>>> As for resurveying Powell's Cave, there have been two survey projects 
>>> of the cave since the early 1960s, and one fairly decent map made of 
>>> the cave. Unfortunately, past efforts used whoever showed up at trips 
>>> as survey teams, with little to no quality control of survey standards. 
>>> The 

Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers]

Leadership - It's about addressing the issues, not targeting the messengers,
Leadership - It's about getting things done even without global consensus, 
Leadership - It's about setting your organization to succeed - like setting up 
Ellenberger formation solid tax deductible donation options,
Leadership - It's about not insulting your potential donors or participants,

And I don't want to start my next email message with 'Excuses, it's what's for 
dinner tonight',

RK


> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 20:37:49 -0400 
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update : 
> From: texascavers@texascavers.com 
>  
> Rafal, 
>  
> If it was so easy, I challenge you to step up and make it so. From the  
> experience I have had dealing with both organizations, well-meaning but  
> time and energy constrained cavers, and the odd troll here and there,  
> it's anything but easy to get folks to agree on anything, even more so  
> when money is involved. 
>  
> Yes, Diana, I could have appealed to either the TCMA or TSS to be the  
> funds collector for the Powell's Cave Project so that a handful of  
> folks could get a minuscule tax deduction if they wanted one. But I  
> felt it was a conflict of interest to ask the TSS to do so as I'm an  
> officer on the Board. That won't matter to some folks but it does to  
> me. The TCMA is a fine organization doing excellent work for Texas  
> caves and cavers but they take awhile to make things happen and this  
> gate needed to be done quickly. 
>  
> So, there you go - the usual simple solutions to the worlds problems  
> aren't actually all that simple. Please keep that in mind as you  
> instruct the world as to how it should be done. In the mean time, I  
> haven't seen you two actually donating anything but grief. Make  
> something happen or get off the soap box. 
>  
> Jerry. 
>  
> -Original Message- 
> From: Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers  
> To: texascavers  
> Sent: Thu, Jun 23, 2016 5:09 pm 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update : 
>  
> What did you assume that isn't true? 
>  
> Caves and karst in Texas are an incredible resource that should be  
> protected and set aside -  the case for which should be easily made  
> especially when one considers lack of green space as compared to  
> American East and West. If Texas cavers could reach around and outside  
> of its own community, get funding from private donors, one could not  
> only gate dozens of habitat sensitive caves but also set up a network  
> of karst preserves. For goodness sake, there are 54 SP500 companies  
> headquarters in Texas!  All that takes is ability to share your vision  
> with others, show them the resource you are trying to protect and  
> reasons why. And yes, sometimes take them above and below the ground,  
> get their hands dirty. 
>  
> And your concern is a nonexistent moral dilemma? 
>  
> RK 
>  
> > Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:37:30 -0600 
> > To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
> > Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update : 
> > From: texascavers@texascavers.com 
> > 
> > Then why did you ask, for Pete's sake ? 
> > 
> > Jerry. 
> > 
> > Sent from my iPhone 
> > 
> > On Jun 23, 2016, at 4:23 PM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers  
> >  
> wrote: 
> > 
> >> No change in my statement. If someone is philanthropic in order to  
> gain access to the cave, that's a 
> >> wrong reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not yours. If 
> >> someone is taken through the cave as a thank you for helping to preserve 
> >> an incredible resource, that's your way of expressing generosity - not 
> >> the issue of the donor. 
> >> 
> >> RK 
> >> 
> >>  
> >>> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:18:37 -0600 
> >>> To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
> >>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update : 
> >>> From: texascavers@texascavers.com 
> >>> 
> >>> When they ask ahead of actually donating, it's a tacit request.  
> That becomes my problem. 
> >>> 
> >>> Jerry. 
> >>> 
> >>> Sent from my iPhone 
> >>> 
> >>> On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:57 PM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers  
> >  
> wrote: 
> >>> 
>  If someone is philanthropic in order to gain access to the cave,  
> that's a wrong reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not  
> yours. If someone is taken through the cave as a thank you for helping  
> to preserve an incredible resource, that's your way of expressing  
> generosity - not the issue of the donor. 
>  
>  RK 
>  
>  

Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[Jerry via Texascavers]

Rafal,

If it was so easy, I challenge you to step up and make it so. From the 
experience I have had dealing with both organizations, well-meaning but time 
and energy constrained cavers, and the odd troll here and there, it's anything 
but easy to get folks to agree on anything, even more so when money is 
involved. 

Yes, Diana, I could have appealed to either the TCMA or TSS to be the funds 
collector for the Powell's Cave Project so that a handful of folks could get a 
minuscule tax deduction if they wanted one. But I felt it was a conflict of 
interest to ask the TSS to do so as I'm an officer on the Board. That won't 
matter to some folks but it does to me. The TCMA is a fine organization doing 
excellent work for Texas caves and cavers but they take awhile to make things 
happen and this gate needed to be done quickly. 

So, there you go - the usual simple solutions to the worlds problems aren't 
actually all that simple. Please keep that in mind as you instruct the world as 
to how it should be done. In the mean time, I haven't seen you two actually 
donating anything but grief. Make something happen or get off the soap box.

Jerry.
 

-Original Message-
From: Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
To: texascavers 
Sent: Thu, Jun 23, 2016 5:09 pm
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :



What did you assume that isn't true? 

Caves and karst in Texas are an incredible resource that should be protected 
and set aside -  the case for which should be easily made especially when one 
considers lack of green space as compared to American East and West. If Texas 
cavers could reach around and outside of its own community, get funding from 
private donors, one could not only gate dozens of habitat sensitive caves but 
also set up a network of karst preserves. For goodness sake, there are 54 SP500 
companies headquarters in Texas!  All that takes is ability to share your 
vision with others, show them the resource you are trying to protect and 
reasons why. And yes, sometimes take them above and below the ground, get their 
hands dirty. 

And your concern is a nonexistent moral dilemma? 

RK

> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:37:30 -0600
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
> 
> Then why did you ask, for Pete's sake ?
> 
> Jerry.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jun 23, 2016, at 4:23 PM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
> 
> > No change in my statement. If someone is philanthropic in order to gain 
> > access to the cave, that's a
> > wrong reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not yours. If 
> > someone is taken through the cave as a thank you for helping to preserve
> > an incredible resource, that's your way of expressing generosity - not 
> > the issue of the donor.
> > 
> > RK
> > 
> > 
> >> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:18:37 -0600
> >> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> >> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
> >> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
> >> 
> >> When they ask ahead of actually donating, it's a tacit request. That 
> >> becomes my problem.
> >> 
> >> Jerry.
> >> 
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> 
> >> On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:57 PM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
> >>  wrote:
> >> 
> >>> If someone is philanthropic in order to gain access to the cave, that's a 
> >>> wrong reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not yours. If 
> >>> someone is taken through the cave as a thank you for helping to preserve 
> >>> an incredible resource, that's your way of expressing generosity - not 
> >>> the issue of the donor.
> >>> 
> >>> RK
> >>> 
> >>> 
>  Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:05:24 -0600
>  To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>  Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
>  From: texascavers@texascavers.com
>  
>  Rafal,
>  
>  I'm not comfortable with donations for the greater good becoming 
>  entitlements for special privileges. It would be unfortunate if that 
>  becomes the principal reason for being philanthropic.
>  
>  As for resurveying Powell's Cave, there have been two survey projects of 
>  the cave since the early 1960s, and one fairly decent map made of the 
>  cave. Unfortunately, past efforts used whoever showed up at trips as 
>  survey teams, with little to no quality control of survey standards. The 
>  result was a mish-mash of excellent to awful surveys that was nearly 
>  impossible to compile into a good map. Any future effort will require a 
>  different strategy that may be too difficult to complete given the lack 
>  of project leaders and cartographers we have today.
>  
>  Jerry.
>  
>  Sent from my 

Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers]

To cut to the chase , the responses show a lack of vision and poor 
organization. If you need small business and public relations help, I'm sure 
it's available among the caving community on this email list. All you have to 
do is ask,

RK

Get Outlook for iOS




On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 6:52 PM -0500, "Diana Tomchick via Texascavers" 
 wrote:





The fact that Powell’s is private property is irrelevant. Money has been 
donated in the past to TCMA (and that money was tax deductible to the donor) to 
fund projects at Honey Creek, which is also private property.

Diana

**
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
(214) 645-6383 (phone)
(214) 645-6353 (fax)

> On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:45 PM, Cave Tex  wrote:
>
> Because Powells is on private property?
>
>
> --Don
>
>> On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:39 PM, Diana Tomchick via Texascavers 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Why do we have these organizations in Texas if they can’t be used to 
>> leverage donations to protect these important resources?
>>
>> Diana
> ___
> Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com
> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers




UT Southwestern


Medical Center



The future of medicine, today.

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Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[Diana Tomchick via Texascavers]

The fact that Powell’s is private property is irrelevant. Money has been 
donated in the past to TCMA (and that money was tax deductible to the donor) to 
fund projects at Honey Creek, which is also private property.

Diana

**
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
(214) 645-6383 (phone)
(214) 645-6353 (fax)

> On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:45 PM, Cave Tex  wrote:
>
> Because Powells is on private property?
>
>
> --Don
>
>> On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:39 PM, Diana Tomchick via Texascavers 
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Why do we have these organizations in Texas if they can’t be used to 
>> leverage donations to protect these important resources?
>>
>> Diana
> ___
> Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com
> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers




UT Southwestern


Medical Center



The future of medicine, today.

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[Texascavers] Sunday Swim June 26th

[via Texascavers]

  We will be having a Sunday Swim at the pond this Sunday, 2:00 - 6:00 or so. 
This will be the last event I will be having at the pond until the Pond Party 
on Sat. August 6th. For info, call Pete Strickland at 512 897 9235.
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Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[Don Arburn via Texascavers]

Because Powells is on private property?


--Don

> On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:39 PM, Diana Tomchick via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Why do we have these organizations in Texas if they can’t be used to leverage 
> donations to protect these important resources?
> 
> Diana
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Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[Diana Tomchick via Texascavers]

If you would like to get a company or private donor interested in donating 
large sums of money, it would help if the donors knew they could use it as a 
deduction on their federal income taxes.

Which leads me to ask once again (since the first time I asked this question it 
went unanswered), what would it take to make a donation to the Powell’s Cave 
gating project tax deductible? The last time I checked the web site, the Texas 
Speleological Survey is a registered 501(c)(3) organization, both Jim Kennedy 
and Jerry Atkinson are Director.s Was there no way that the money couldn’t have 
been donated to the TSS, which would then use the money to fund the protection 
of Powell’s Cave? Or failing that, through the TCMA?

Why do we have these organizations in Texas if they can’t be used to leverage 
donations to protect these important resources?

Diana

**
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
(214) 645-6383 (phone)
(214) 645-6353 (fax)

> On Jun 23, 2016, at 6:09 PM, texascavers@texascavers.com wrote:
>
> What did you assume that isn't true?
>
> Caves and karst in Texas are an incredible resource that should be protected 
> and set aside -  the case for which should be easily made especially when one 
> considers lack of green space as compared to American East and West. If Texas 
> cavers could reach around and outside of its own community, get funding from 
> private donors, one could not only gate dozens of habitat sensitive caves but 
> also set up a network of karst preserves. For goodness sake, there are 54 
> SP500 companies headquarters in Texas!  All that takes is ability to share 
> your vision with others, show them the resource you are trying to protect and 
> reasons why. And yes, sometimes take them above and below the ground, get 
> their hands dirty.
>
> And your concern is a nonexistent moral dilemma?
>
> RK
>
> > Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:37:30 -0600
> > To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> > Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
> > From: texascavers@texascavers.com
> >
> > Then why did you ask, for Pete's sake ?
> >
> > Jerry.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Jun 23, 2016, at 4:23 PM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > No change in my statement. If someone is philanthropic in order to gain 
> > > access to the cave, that's a
> > > wrong reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not yours. If
> > > someone is taken through the cave as a thank you for helping to preserve
> > > an incredible resource, that's your way of expressing generosity - not
> > > the issue of the donor.
> > >
> > > RK
> > >
> > > 
> > >> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:18:37 -0600
> > >> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> > >> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
> > >> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
> > >>
> > >> When they ask ahead of actually donating, it's a tacit request. That 
> > >> becomes my problem.
> > >>
> > >> Jerry.
> > >>
> > >> Sent from my iPhone
> > >>
> > >> On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:57 PM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
> > >>  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> If someone is philanthropic in order to gain access to the cave, that's 
> > >>> a wrong reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not yours. If 
> > >>> someone is taken through the cave as a thank you for helping to 
> > >>> preserve an incredible resource, that's your way of expressing 
> > >>> generosity - not the issue of the donor.
> > >>>
> > >>> RK
> > >>>
> > >>> 
> >  Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:05:24 -0600
> >  To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> >  Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
> >  From: texascavers@texascavers.com
> > 
> >  Rafal,
> > 
> >  I'm not comfortable with donations for the greater good becoming 
> >  entitlements for special privileges. It would be unfortunate if that 
> >  becomes the principal reason for being philanthropic.
> > 
> >  As for resurveying Powell's Cave, there have been two survey projects 
> >  of the cave since the early 1960s, and one fairly decent map made of 
> >  the cave. Unfortunately, past efforts used whoever showed up at trips 
> >  as survey teams, with little to no quality control of survey 
> >  standards. The result was a mish-mash of excellent to awful surveys 
> >  that was nearly impossible to compile into a good map. Any future 
> >  effort will require a different strategy that may be too difficult to 
> >  complete given the lack of project leaders and cartographers we have 
> >  today.
> > 
> >  Jerry.
> > 
> >  Sent from my 

Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers]

What did you assume that isn't true? 

Caves and karst in Texas are an incredible resource that should be protected 
and set aside -  the case for which should be easily made especially when one 
considers lack of green space as compared to American East and West. If Texas 
cavers could reach around and outside of its own community, get funding from 
private donors, one could not only gate dozens of habitat sensitive caves but 
also set up a network of karst preserves. For goodness sake, there are 54 SP500 
companies headquarters in Texas!  All that takes is ability to share your 
vision with others, show them the resource you are trying to protect and 
reasons why. And yes, sometimes take them above and below the ground, get their 
hands dirty. 

And your concern is a nonexistent moral dilemma? 

RK

> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:37:30 -0600
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
> 
> Then why did you ask, for Pete's sake ?
> 
> Jerry.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jun 23, 2016, at 4:23 PM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
> 
> > No change in my statement. If someone is philanthropic in order to gain 
> > access to the cave, that's a
> > wrong reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not yours. If 
> > someone is taken through the cave as a thank you for helping to preserve
> > an incredible resource, that's your way of expressing generosity - not 
> > the issue of the donor.
> > 
> > RK
> > 
> > 
> >> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:18:37 -0600
> >> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> >> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
> >> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
> >> 
> >> When they ask ahead of actually donating, it's a tacit request. That 
> >> becomes my problem.
> >> 
> >> Jerry.
> >> 
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> 
> >> On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:57 PM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
> >>  wrote:
> >> 
> >>> If someone is philanthropic in order to gain access to the cave, that's a 
> >>> wrong reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not yours. If 
> >>> someone is taken through the cave as a thank you for helping to preserve 
> >>> an incredible resource, that's your way of expressing generosity - not 
> >>> the issue of the donor.
> >>> 
> >>> RK
> >>> 
> >>> 
>  Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:05:24 -0600
>  To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>  Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
>  From: texascavers@texascavers.com
>  
>  Rafal,
>  
>  I'm not comfortable with donations for the greater good becoming 
>  entitlements for special privileges. It would be unfortunate if that 
>  becomes the principal reason for being philanthropic.
>  
>  As for resurveying Powell's Cave, there have been two survey projects of 
>  the cave since the early 1960s, and one fairly decent map made of the 
>  cave. Unfortunately, past efforts used whoever showed up at trips as 
>  survey teams, with little to no quality control of survey standards. The 
>  result was a mish-mash of excellent to awful surveys that was nearly 
>  impossible to compile into a good map. Any future effort will require a 
>  different strategy that may be too difficult to complete given the lack 
>  of project leaders and cartographers we have today.
>  
>  Jerry.
>  
>  Sent from my iPhone
>  
>  On Jun 23, 2016, at 8:01 AM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
>   wrote:
>  
> > Further along those lines, do donors get a special thank you trip:)?
> > 
> > When does the longest mostly dry cave in Texas get a more perfect 
> > survey project and map?
> > 
> > RK
> > 
> > 
> >> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:55:00 +
> >> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> >> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
> >> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
> >> 
> >> 
> >> How do we send in a contribution? Is there somewhere online I can 
> >> donate?
> >> 
> >> ---
> >> Dessie Pierce, MA
> >> Licensed Professional Counselor
> >> Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor
> >> Certified Clinical Trauma Professional
> >> 11999 Katy Freeway
> >> Suite 509
> >> Houston, TX 77079
> >> phone: 832-735-0065
> >> cell: 832-341-8880
> >> des...@dessiep.com
> >> dessiep.com
> >> It is important to be aware that e-mail communication can be relatively
> >> easily accessed by unauthorized people and therefore can compromise the
> >> privacy and confidentiality of such communication. Please notify me
> >> (Dessie Pierce) if you decide to avoid or 

Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[via Texascavers]

Then why did you ask, for Pete's sake ?

Jerry.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 23, 2016, at 4:23 PM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
 wrote:

> No change in my statement. If someone is philanthropic in order to gain 
> access to the cave, that's a
> wrong reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not yours. If 
> someone is taken through the cave as a thank you for helping to preserve
> an incredible resource, that's your way of expressing generosity - not 
> the issue of the donor.
> 
> RK
> 
> 
>> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:18:37 -0600
>> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
>> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
>> 
>> When they ask ahead of actually donating, it's a tacit request. That becomes 
>> my problem.
>> 
>> Jerry.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:57 PM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> If someone is philanthropic in order to gain access to the cave, that's a 
>>> wrong reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not yours. If 
>>> someone is taken through the cave as a thank you for helping to preserve an 
>>> incredible resource, that's your way of expressing generosity - not the 
>>> issue of the donor.
>>> 
>>> RK
>>> 
>>> 
 Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:05:24 -0600
 To: texascavers@texascavers.com
 Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
 From: texascavers@texascavers.com
 
 Rafal,
 
 I'm not comfortable with donations for the greater good becoming 
 entitlements for special privileges. It would be unfortunate if that 
 becomes the principal reason for being philanthropic.
 
 As for resurveying Powell's Cave, there have been two survey projects of 
 the cave since the early 1960s, and one fairly decent map made of the 
 cave. Unfortunately, past efforts used whoever showed up at trips as 
 survey teams, with little to no quality control of survey standards. The 
 result was a mish-mash of excellent to awful surveys that was nearly 
 impossible to compile into a good map. Any future effort will require a 
 different strategy that may be too difficult to complete given the lack of 
 project leaders and cartographers we have today.
 
 Jerry.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Jun 23, 2016, at 8:01 AM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
  wrote:
 
> Further along those lines, do donors get a special thank you trip:)?
> 
> When does the longest mostly dry cave in Texas get a more perfect survey 
> project and map?
> 
> RK
> 
> 
>> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:55:00 +
>> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
>> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
>> 
>> 
>> How do we send in a contribution? Is there somewhere online I can donate?
>> 
>> ---
>> Dessie Pierce, MA
>> Licensed Professional Counselor
>> Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor
>> Certified Clinical Trauma Professional
>> 11999 Katy Freeway
>> Suite 509
>> Houston, TX 77079
>> phone: 832-735-0065
>> cell: 832-341-8880
>> des...@dessiep.com
>> dessiep.com
>> It is important to be aware that e-mail communication can be relatively
>> easily accessed by unauthorized people and therefore can compromise the
>> privacy and confidentiality of such communication. Please notify me
>> (Dessie Pierce) if you decide to avoid or limit in anyway the use of
>> email. Please do not use email for emergencies. Any advice given
>> without a contract for professional services does not constitute
>> counseling in any manner and should not be relied upon. Information
>> contained within and accompanying this message is confidential,
>> intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If
>> the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
>> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this
>> message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
>> error, please immediately notify me by telephone at 832-735-0065 or
>> return the email and purge all copies of this message from your system.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 2016-06-22 20:32, Jerry via Texascavers wrote:
>> 
>> Powell's Cave Gate Project update
>> 
>> Jim Kennedy and company have finished the gate on Powell's Cave, and
>> now it's time to pay for it. As you can see from the accompanying
>> graph, we've received $1200 of the approximately $2500 that has been
>> pledged thus far. Many thanks to all that have sent in their 

Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers]

No change in my statement. If someone is philanthropic in order to gain access 
to the cave, that's a
 wrong reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not yours. If 
someone is taken through the cave as a thank you for helping to preserve
 an incredible resource, that's your way of expressing generosity - not 
the issue of the donor.

RK


> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:18:37 -0600
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
>
> When they ask ahead of actually donating, it's a tacit request. That becomes 
> my problem.
>
> Jerry.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:57 PM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
>
>> If someone is philanthropic in order to gain access to the cave, that's a 
>> wrong reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not yours. If 
>> someone is taken through the cave as a thank you for helping to preserve an 
>> incredible resource, that's your way of expressing generosity - not the 
>> issue of the donor.
>>
>> RK
>>
>> 
>>> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:05:24 -0600
>>> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
>>> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
>>>
>>> Rafal,
>>>
>>> I'm not comfortable with donations for the greater good becoming 
>>> entitlements for special privileges. It would be unfortunate if that 
>>> becomes the principal reason for being philanthropic.
>>>
>>> As for resurveying Powell's Cave, there have been two survey projects of 
>>> the cave since the early 1960s, and one fairly decent map made of the cave. 
>>> Unfortunately, past efforts used whoever showed up at trips as survey 
>>> teams, with little to no quality control of survey standards. The result 
>>> was a mish-mash of excellent to awful surveys that was nearly impossible to 
>>> compile into a good map. Any future effort will require a different 
>>> strategy that may be too difficult to complete given the lack of project 
>>> leaders and cartographers we have today.
>>>
>>> Jerry.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Jun 23, 2016, at 8:01 AM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
>>>  wrote:
>>>
 Further along those lines, do donors get a special thank you trip:)?

 When does the longest mostly dry cave in Texas get a more perfect survey 
 project and map?

 RK

 
> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:55:00 +
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
>
>
> How do we send in a contribution? Is there somewhere online I can donate?
>
> ---
> Dessie Pierce, MA
> Licensed Professional Counselor
> Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor
> Certified Clinical Trauma Professional
> 11999 Katy Freeway
> Suite 509
> Houston, TX 77079
> phone: 832-735-0065
> cell: 832-341-8880
> des...@dessiep.com
> dessiep.com
> It is important to be aware that e-mail communication can be relatively
> easily accessed by unauthorized people and therefore can compromise the
> privacy and confidentiality of such communication. Please notify me
> (Dessie Pierce) if you decide to avoid or limit in anyway the use of
> email. Please do not use email for emergencies. Any advice given
> without a contract for professional services does not constitute
> counseling in any manner and should not be relied upon. Information
> contained within and accompanying this message is confidential,
> intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If
> the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this
> message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
> error, please immediately notify me by telephone at 832-735-0065 or
> return the email and purge all copies of this message from your system.
>
>
>
> On 2016-06-22 20:32, Jerry via Texascavers wrote:
>
> Powell's Cave Gate Project update
>
> Jim Kennedy and company have finished the gate on Powell's Cave, and
> now it's time to pay for it. As you can see from the accompanying
> graph, we've received $1200 of the approximately $2500 that has been
> pledged thus far. Many thanks to all that have sent in their donations
> or pledged to help! - If you haven't sent in your pledged donation,
> please do so at your earliest convenience so we can pay the bills.
>
> The graph also shows that we are about $800 shy of our goal. If you are
> thinking of helping out on the gate project, please do so at this time.

Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[via Texascavers]

When they ask ahead of actually donating, it's a tacit request. That becomes my 
problem.

Jerry.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 23, 2016, at 3:57 PM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
 wrote:

> If someone is philanthropic in order to gain access to the cave, that's a 
> wrong reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not yours. If someone 
> is taken through the cave as a thank you for helping to preserve an 
> incredible resource, that's your way of expressing generosity - not the issue 
> of the donor. 
> 
> RK
> 
> 
>> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:05:24 -0600
>> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
>> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
>> 
>> Rafal,
>> 
>> I'm not comfortable with donations for the greater good becoming 
>> entitlements for special privileges. It would be unfortunate if that becomes 
>> the principal reason for being philanthropic.
>> 
>> As for resurveying Powell's Cave, there have been two survey projects of the 
>> cave since the early 1960s, and one fairly decent map made of the cave. 
>> Unfortunately, past efforts used whoever showed up at trips as survey teams, 
>> with little to no quality control of survey standards. The result was a 
>> mish-mash of excellent to awful surveys that was nearly impossible to 
>> compile into a good map. Any future effort will require a different strategy 
>> that may be too difficult to complete given the lack of project leaders and 
>> cartographers we have today.
>> 
>> Jerry.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jun 23, 2016, at 8:01 AM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> Further along those lines, do donors get a special thank you trip:)?
>>> 
>>> When does the longest mostly dry cave in Texas get a more perfect survey 
>>> project and map?
>>> 
>>> RK
>>> 
>>> 
 Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:55:00 +
 To: texascavers@texascavers.com
 Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
 From: texascavers@texascavers.com
 
 
 How do we send in a contribution? Is there somewhere online I can donate?
 
 ---
 Dessie Pierce, MA
 Licensed Professional Counselor
 Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor
 Certified Clinical Trauma Professional
 11999 Katy Freeway
 Suite 509
 Houston, TX 77079
 phone: 832-735-0065
 cell: 832-341-8880
 des...@dessiep.com
 dessiep.com
 It is important to be aware that e-mail communication can be relatively
 easily accessed by unauthorized people and therefore can compromise the
 privacy and confidentiality of such communication. Please notify me
 (Dessie Pierce) if you decide to avoid or limit in anyway the use of
 email. Please do not use email for emergencies. Any advice given
 without a contract for professional services does not constitute
 counseling in any manner and should not be relied upon. Information
 contained within and accompanying this message is confidential,
 intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If
 the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
 hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this
 message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
 error, please immediately notify me by telephone at 832-735-0065 or
 return the email and purge all copies of this message from your system.
 
 
 
 On 2016-06-22 20:32, Jerry via Texascavers wrote:
 
 Powell's Cave Gate Project update
 
 Jim Kennedy and company have finished the gate on Powell's Cave, and
 now it's time to pay for it. As you can see from the accompanying
 graph, we've received $1200 of the approximately $2500 that has been
 pledged thus far. Many thanks to all that have sent in their donations
 or pledged to help! - If you haven't sent in your pledged donation,
 please do so at your earliest convenience so we can pay the bills.
 
 The graph also shows that we are about $800 shy of our goal. If you are
 thinking of helping out on the gate project, please do so at this time.
 Help support our continuing efforts to protect both the cave and its
 bats, and to demonstrate our commitment to the landowner.
 
 Jerry Atkinson
 Powell's Cave Landowner Liaison
 
 
 
 ___
 Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com
 Texascavers@texascavers.com |
 Archives:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
 http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
 
 ___ 

Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers]

If someone is philanthropic in order to gain access to the cave, that's a wrong 
reason for generosity - but that's his/her issue, not yours. If someone is 
taken through the cave as a thank you for helping to preserve an incredible 
resource, that's your way of expressing generosity - not the issue of the 
donor. 

RK


> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:05:24 -0600
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
>
> Rafal,
>
> I'm not comfortable with donations for the greater good becoming entitlements 
> for special privileges. It would be unfortunate if that becomes the principal 
> reason for being philanthropic.
>
> As for resurveying Powell's Cave, there have been two survey projects of the 
> cave since the early 1960s, and one fairly decent map made of the cave. 
> Unfortunately, past efforts used whoever showed up at trips as survey teams, 
> with little to no quality control of survey standards. The result was a 
> mish-mash of excellent to awful surveys that was nearly impossible to compile 
> into a good map. Any future effort will require a different strategy that may 
> be too difficult to complete given the lack of project leaders and 
> cartographers we have today.
>
> Jerry.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 23, 2016, at 8:01 AM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
>
>> Further along those lines, do donors get a special thank you trip:)?
>>
>> When does the longest mostly dry cave in Texas get a more perfect survey 
>> project and map?
>>
>> RK
>>
>> 
>>> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:55:00 +
>>> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :
>>> From: texascavers@texascavers.com
>>>
>>>
>>> How do we send in a contribution? Is there somewhere online I can donate?
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Dessie Pierce, MA
>>> Licensed Professional Counselor
>>> Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor
>>> Certified Clinical Trauma Professional
>>> 11999 Katy Freeway
>>> Suite 509
>>> Houston, TX 77079
>>> phone: 832-735-0065
>>> cell: 832-341-8880
>>> des...@dessiep.com
>>> dessiep.com
>>> It is important to be aware that e-mail communication can be relatively
>>> easily accessed by unauthorized people and therefore can compromise the
>>> privacy and confidentiality of such communication. Please notify me
>>> (Dessie Pierce) if you decide to avoid or limit in anyway the use of
>>> email. Please do not use email for emergencies. Any advice given
>>> without a contract for professional services does not constitute
>>> counseling in any manner and should not be relied upon. Information
>>> contained within and accompanying this message is confidential,
>>> intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If
>>> the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
>>> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this
>>> message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
>>> error, please immediately notify me by telephone at 832-735-0065 or
>>> return the email and purge all copies of this message from your system.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2016-06-22 20:32, Jerry via Texascavers wrote:
>>>
>>> Powell's Cave Gate Project update
>>>
>>> Jim Kennedy and company have finished the gate on Powell's Cave, and
>>> now it's time to pay for it. As you can see from the accompanying
>>> graph, we've received $1200 of the approximately $2500 that has been
>>> pledged thus far. Many thanks to all that have sent in their donations
>>> or pledged to help! - If you haven't sent in your pledged donation,
>>> please do so at your earliest convenience so we can pay the bills.
>>>
>>> The graph also shows that we are about $800 shy of our goal. If you are
>>> thinking of helping out on the gate project, please do so at this time.
>>> Help support our continuing efforts to protect both the cave and its
>>> bats, and to demonstrate our commitment to the landowner.
>>>
>>> Jerry Atkinson
>>> Powell's Cave Landowner Liaison
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com
>>> Texascavers@texascavers.com |
>>> Archives:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
>>> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
>>>
>>> ___ Texascavers mailing
>>> list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
>>> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
>>
>> ___
>> Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com
>> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: 
>> 

Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[via Texascavers]

Rafal,

I'm not comfortable with donations for the greater good becoming entitlements 
for special privileges. It would be unfortunate if that becomes the principal 
reason for being philanthropic. 

As for resurveying Powell's Cave, there have been two survey projects of the 
cave since the early 1960s, and one fairly decent map made of the cave. 
Unfortunately, past efforts used whoever showed up at trips as survey teams, 
with little to no quality control of  survey standards. The result was a 
mish-mash of excellent to awful surveys that was nearly impossible to compile 
into a good map. Any future effort will require a different strategy that may 
be too difficult to complete given the lack of project leaders and 
cartographers we have today.

Jerry.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 23, 2016, at 8:01 AM, Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers 
 wrote:

> Further along those lines, do donors get a special thank you trip:)?
> 
> When does the longest mostly dry cave in Texas get a more perfect survey 
> project and map?
> 
> RK
> 
> 
>> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:55:00 + 
>> To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update : 
>> From: texascavers@texascavers.com 
>> 
>> 
>> How do we send in a contribution? Is there somewhere online I can donate? 
>> 
>> --- 
>> Dessie Pierce, MA 
>> Licensed Professional Counselor 
>> Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor 
>> Certified Clinical Trauma Professional 
>> 11999 Katy Freeway 
>> Suite 509 
>> Houston, TX 77079 
>> phone: 832-735-0065 
>> cell: 832-341-8880 
>> des...@dessiep.com 
>> dessiep.com 
>> It is important to be aware that e-mail communication can be relatively  
>> easily accessed by unauthorized people and therefore can compromise the  
>> privacy and confidentiality of such communication.  Please notify me  
>> (Dessie Pierce) if you decide to avoid or limit in anyway the use of  
>> email.  Please do not use email for emergencies.  Any advice given  
>> without a contract for professional services does not constitute  
>> counseling in any manner and should not be relied upon.  Information  
>> contained within and accompanying this message is confidential,  
>> intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.  If  
>> the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are  
>> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this  
>> message is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this message in  
>> error, please immediately notify me by telephone at 832-735-0065 or  
>> return the email and purge all copies of this message from your system. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 2016-06-22 20:32, Jerry via Texascavers wrote: 
>> 
>> Powell's Cave Gate Project update 
>> 
>> Jim Kennedy and company have finished the gate on Powell's Cave, and  
>> now it's time to pay for it. As you can see from the accompanying  
>> graph, we've received $1200 of the approximately $2500 that has been  
>> pledged thus far. Many thanks to all that have sent in their donations  
>> or pledged to help! - If you haven't sent in your pledged donation,  
>> please do so at your earliest convenience so we can pay the bills. 
>> 
>> The graph also shows that we are about $800 shy of our goal. If you are  
>> thinking of helping out on the gate project, please do so at this time.  
>> Help support our continuing efforts to protect both the cave and its  
>> bats, and to demonstrate our commitment to the landowner. 
>> 
>> Jerry Atkinson 
>> Powell's Cave Landowner Liaison 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___ 
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>> Texascavers@texascavers.com |  
>> Archives:  
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
>>  
>> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers 
>> 
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[Texascavers] Steam Cave

[David via Texascavers]

This post is just me reminiscing about the spring of 1985.

I had been a newbie caver for about 6 months with the A.S.S.   I had been
in about 20+ caves, including Las Grutas de Precipicio.

By the spring, the A.S.S. was down to about 6 student cavers who were all
actively recreational caving in the Hill Country on Saturday only, on their
own trips ( just 2 or 3 Aggies and friends ), meaning not with other
grottoes.   ( The A.S.S. President was a founding member of an informal
group called, "The Boerne Speleomaniacs" )He was my mentor the first
year of caving.

I attended the TSA Spring Convention at Inner Space Caverns.I do not
remember much, but we did get to go in Steam Cave and Chinaberry Cave and
probably took the cave tour.   I think there might have been a 3rd smaller
cave we poked our head in.

I seem to recall a fuzzy warped memory that the main reason I attended the
Spring Convention was to meet members of The Boerne Speleomaniacs as I must
have thought they were some hard-core caving club, as I had apparently not
heard about other grottoes or the TSA.   I do not recall for sure if I met
any of them there.But I know I never seen or heard of them after that.

I remember a guy in Steam Cave on crutches and 2 cavers in the cave smoking
pot.   I remember lots of harvestmen in the entrances.   There was a game
in the cave to find hidden notes leading to something called "booty."

While I do not recall meeting any cavers there, it is likely that when I
went to TCR in New Braunfels in the fall of 85, that I felt like I already
knew everybody.

Looking back now, 31 years later, the best memory about 1985 ( for me at
least ) was Mr. Jasek's panoramic photos.

David Locklear
dlocklea...@gmail.com
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Re: [Texascavers] A question and a comment concerning Cass

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

On Thu, June 23, 2016 12:35 pm, Sleazeweazel via Texascavers wrote:
--
> As to Cass being cold and wet, that's a fact! There used to be a sign by
> the drop announcing that you would die if you went down by the waterfall.
> That left the belay loft where you could easily get stuck coming back up
> because the  rope could easily get wedged in an impassible crack.

  That old sign is still there! Everyone has used the Belay Loft in recent
times. There are various bolts set there, and the best ones keep the
rope out of any slots. All that is needed is a pad where the rope passes
over a ledge not far below the rig point. The rest of the drop is free.
Alas, the Cass main entrance has been closed for several years. :-(

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

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Re: [Texascavers] Inner Space Caverns

[Logan McNatt via Texascavers]

Yes Mark, there is a nearby Steam Cave. Given the spelling problems with 
names, be aware that Steam Cave is not named after Chuck Stuehm, even 
though they are pronounced the same.


On 6/23/2016 1:28 PM, Mark Minton via Texascavers wrote:

   Was one of the other caves on Laubach's place called Steam Cave? That
was one of the first Texas caves I ever visited, while passing through
on my first trip to Mexico in 1968 (I'm old, too...). ;-)

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Thu, June 23, 2016 12:25 pm, Sam Young via Texascavers wrote:


Question:  Wasn't "Laughbach" the name of the land owner?  He had some
more caves on his place and we had access to those.    Sam Young

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Re: [Texascavers] Inner Space Caverns

[Mark Minton via Texascavers]

  Was one of the other caves on Laubach's place called Steam Cave? That
was one of the first Texas caves I ever visited, while passing through
on my first trip to Mexico in 1968 (I'm old, too...). ;-)

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Thu, June 23, 2016 12:25 pm, Sam Young via Texascavers wrote:

> Question:  Wasn't "Laughbach" the name of the land owner?  He had some
> more caves on his place and we had access to those.    Sam Young

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Re: [Texascavers] A question and a comment concerning Cass

[Charles Goldsmith via Texascavers]

Sleaze, digest does not get images that are attached.  You should be able
to see the images here:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/cavetex/aoMdV0efq0g

You do not have to sign up with google to see the archives there, just a
warning about possible adult content, which keeps me out of trouble with
google.

Let me know if there are any questions.

Charles
wo...@justfamily.org


On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 11:35 AM, via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> I gather from the latest post that others on the Texascavers list can see
> posted images whereas I cannot. Is that because I subscribe to the digest?
>
>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[via Texascavers]

Send donations to:

Gerald Atkinson
16 Hummingbird Lane
Glorieta, NM.  87535

Thanks !

Jerry.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 23, 2016, at 7:55 AM, Dessie Pierce via Texascavers 
 wrote:

> How do we send in a contribution? Is there somewhere online I can donate?
> 
> ---
> Dessie Pierce, MA
> Licensed Professional Counselor 
> Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor
> Certified Clinical Trauma Professional
> 11999 Katy Freeway
> Suite 509
> Houston, TX 77079
> phone: 832-735-0065
> cell: 832-341-8880
> des...@dessiep.com
> dessiep.com
> It is important to be aware that e-mail communication can be relatively 
> easily accessed by unauthorized people and therefore can compromise the 
> privacy and confidentiality of such communication.  Please notify me (Dessie 
> Pierce) if you decide to avoid or limit in anyway the use of email.  Please 
> do not use email for emergencies.  Any advice given without a contract for 
> professional services does not constitute counseling in any manner and should 
> not be relied upon.  Information contained within and accompanying this 
> message is confidential, intended only for the use of the individual or 
> entity named above.  If the reader of this message is not the intended 
> recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or 
> copy of this message is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this 
> message in error, please immediately notify me by telephone at 832-735-0065 
> or return the email and purge all copies of this message from your system.
>  
> 
> On 2016-06-22 20:32, Jerry via Texascavers wrote:
> 
>> Powell's Cave Gate Project update
>>  
>> Jim Kennedy and company have finished the gate on Powell's Cave, and now 
>> it's time to pay for it. As you can see from the accompanying graph, we've 
>> received $1200 of the approximately $2500 that has been pledged thus far. 
>> Many thanks to all that have sent in their donations or pledged to help! - 
>> If you haven't sent in your pledged donation, please do so at your earliest 
>> convenience so we can pay the bills.
>> 
>> The graph also shows that we are about $800 shy of our goal. If you are 
>> thinking of helping out on the gate project, please do so at this time. Help 
>> support our continuing efforts to protect both the cave and its bats, and to 
>> demonstrate our commitment to the landowner.
>>  
>> Jerry Atkinson
>> Powell's Cave Landowner Liaison
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
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Re: [Texascavers] Inner Space Caverns

[Charles Loving via Texascavers]

Spelling was never one of Old Man Wisdom's strengths. It was a long time
ago. Went in with Super Bounce, Redell, A.Ricard, and a few other UT covers.

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Jim Kennedy via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> It was actually "Laubach."
>
> Crash.
>
> Mobile email from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 23, 2016, at 11:25 AM, Sam Young via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>
> *David Locklear Said: "Inner Space was Laughbach cave when I first went
> in. You had to go down a vent pipe of some sort."*
>
> Yes, but before it was Laughbach cave, it was just called "Core Hole
> Cave".
>
>
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>
>


-- 
Charlie Loving
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Re: [Texascavers] Inner Space Caverns

[Jim Kennedy via Texascavers]

It was actually "Laubach."

Crash. 

Mobile email from my iPhone

> On Jun 23, 2016, at 11:25 AM, Sam Young via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
> 
> David Locklear Said: "Inner Space was Laughbach cave when I first went in. 
> You had to go down a vent pipe of some sort."
> 
> Yes, but before it was Laughbach cave, it was just called "Core Hole Cave".  
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Re: [Texascavers] A question and a comment concerning Cass

[Nancy Weaver via Texascavers]

> Sleaze - I’ll buy you a ticket to washington.
Nancy
> 
> intention of punching El Toro in the nose. That did the trick! They turned 
> and ran while I continued to chase them until I realized how tired I was and 
> turned back to join my companions. Take that you big bullies!
>  

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[Texascavers] A question and a comment concerning Cass

[via Texascavers]

I gather from the latest post that others on the Texascavers list can see  
posted images whereas I cannot. Is that because I subscribe to the digest?
 
As to Cass being cold and wet, that's a fact! There used to be a sign by  
the drop announcing that you would die if you went down by the waterfall. 
That  left the belay loft where you could easily get stuck coming back up 
because the  rope could easily get wedged in an impassible crack. 
 
I will not forget the evening that I emerged from Cass with a group of  
cavers from the Northern New Jersey Grotto. The sun had just set and we looked  
across a vast tableau of mountain ridges fading from green to blue to 
violet. It  was beautiful in a way that only West Virginia can be.
 
As we walked down the mountain across a wide pasture we suddenly heard the  
thundering of hooves behind us. A herd of young bulls was charging straight 
at  us!
 
Perhaps it is due to my extreme fear of heights, but whenever I manage to  
overcome my fear and bop a major drop like Cass I am thereafter elated upon  
cheating death. So, instead of breaking and running from the bulls I 
charged  straight at them with the intention of punching El Toro in the nose. 
That 
did  the trick! They turned and ran while I continued to chase them until I 
realized  how tired I was and turned back to join my companions. Take that 
you  big bullies!
 
Sleazeweazel___
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[Texascavers] Inner Space Caverns

[Sam Young via Texascavers]

/David Locklear Said: "Inner Space was Laughbach cave when I first went 
in. You had to go down a vent pipe of some sort."/


Yes, but before it was Laughbach cave, it was just called "Core Hole 
Cave".  The highway department was building the interstate through 
Georgetown (yes, that's how old I am) and an engineer was aware of a 
cavity beneath the roadway.  He drilled the core hole and contacted Bill 
Russell who began surveying the cave.  I joined Bill on one of those trips.


Question:  Wasn't "Laughbach" the name of the land owner?  He had some 
more caves on his place and we had access to those.    Sam Young
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Re: [Texascavers] Inner Space Caverns

[Bob Burnett via Texascavers]

James Jasek is 2nd from left in light blue shirt.

Bob Burnett

-Original Message- 
From: David via Texascavers

Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 12:19 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Inner Space Caverns

A caver posted 4 helmet-cam video clips 4 days ago on YouTube of what
looks like them caving in ISC with
quiet a bit of water in the passages. Is that anybody here ?

Also,

Back on June 9th, there was a celebration at ISC.


https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13391432_10154311343212853_8262470945045117389_o.jpg

Prof. Lundelius allegedly gave a presentation.

Did anybody you know go to this ?

Are there any cavers or former cavers in the photo above ?

David Locklear


P.S.

ISC was my first cave tour in 1969.Probably the summer of 1969.
My next cave tour was
Louis & Clark Caverns in Idaho, in the spring of 1970.

I have been to the Squid Room twice with Mr. Jasek, once around 1987
and again around 1995.
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Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[Rafal Kedzierski via Texascavers]

Further along those lines, do donors get a special thank you trip:)?

When does the longest mostly dry cave in Texas get a more perfect survey 
project and map?

RK


> Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 13:55:00 + 
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update : 
> From: texascavers@texascavers.com 
>  
>  
> How do we send in a contribution? Is there somewhere online I can donate? 
>  
> --- 
> Dessie Pierce, MA 
> Licensed Professional Counselor 
> Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor 
> Certified Clinical Trauma Professional 
> 11999 Katy Freeway 
> Suite 509 
> Houston, TX 77079 
> phone: 832-735-0065 
> cell: 832-341-8880 
> des...@dessiep.com 
> dessiep.com 
> It is important to be aware that e-mail communication can be relatively  
> easily accessed by unauthorized people and therefore can compromise the  
> privacy and confidentiality of such communication.  Please notify me  
> (Dessie Pierce) if you decide to avoid or limit in anyway the use of  
> email.  Please do not use email for emergencies.  Any advice given  
> without a contract for professional services does not constitute  
> counseling in any manner and should not be relied upon.  Information  
> contained within and accompanying this message is confidential,  
> intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above.  If  
> the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are  
> hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this  
> message is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this message in  
> error, please immediately notify me by telephone at 832-735-0065 or  
> return the email and purge all copies of this message from your system. 
>  
>  
>  
> On 2016-06-22 20:32, Jerry via Texascavers wrote: 
>  
> Powell's Cave Gate Project update 
>  
> Jim Kennedy and company have finished the gate on Powell's Cave, and  
> now it's time to pay for it. As you can see from the accompanying  
> graph, we've received $1200 of the approximately $2500 that has been  
> pledged thus far. Many thanks to all that have sent in their donations  
> or pledged to help! - If you haven't sent in your pledged donation,  
> please do so at your earliest convenience so we can pay the bills. 
>  
> The graph also shows that we are about $800 shy of our goal. If you are  
> thinking of helping out on the gate project, please do so at this time.  
> Help support our continuing efforts to protect both the cave and its  
> bats, and to demonstrate our commitment to the landowner. 
>  
> Jerry Atkinson 
> Powell's Cave Landowner Liaison 
>  
>  
>  
> ___ 
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
>  
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers 
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Re: [Texascavers] Powell's Cave Gate Project update :

[Dessie Pierce via Texascavers]

How do we send in a contribution? Is there somewhere online I can
donate?

---
Dessie Pierce, MA
Licensed Professional Counselor 
Licensed Chemical Dependency Counselor
Certified Clinical Trauma Professional
11999 Katy Freeway
Suite 509
Houston, TX 77079
phone: 832-735-0065
cell: 832-341-8880
des...@dessiep.com
dessiep.com
It is important to be aware that e-mail communication can be relatively
easily accessed by unauthorized people and therefore can compromise the
privacy and confidentiality of such communication.  Please notify me
(Dessie Pierce) if you decide to avoid or limit in anyway the use of
email.  Please do not use email for emergencies.  Any advice given
without a contract for professional services does not constitute
counseling in any manner and should not be relied upon.  Information
contained within and accompanying this message is confidential, intended
only for the use of the individual or entity named above.  If the reader
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
that any dissemination, distribution or copy of this message is strictly
prohibited.  If you have received this message in error, please
immediately notify me by telephone at 832-735-0065 or return the email
and purge all copies of this message from your system. 

On 2016-06-22 20:32, Jerry via Texascavers wrote:

> POWELL'S CAVE GATE PROJECT UPDATE 
> 
> Jim Kennedy and company have finished the gate on Powell's Cave, and now it's 
> time to pay for it. As you can see from the accompanying graph, we've 
> received $1200 of the approximately $2500 that has been pledged thus far. 
> Many thanks to all that have sent in their donations or pledged to help! - If 
> you haven't sent in your pledged donation, please do so at your earliest 
> convenience so we can pay the bills.
> 
> The graph also shows that we are about $800 shy of our goal. If you are 
> thinking of helping out on the gate project, please do so at this time. Help 
> support our continuing efforts to protect both the cave and its bats, and to 
> demonstrate our commitment to the landowner. 
> 
> Jerry Atkinson 
> 
> Powell's Cave Landowner Liaison
> 
> ___
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
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Re: [Texascavers] Inner Space Caverns

[Charles Loving via Texascavers]

Inner Space was Laughbach cave when I first went in. You had to go down a
vent pipe of some sort. That was when Cobb Caverns was still being visited
near Florence. Wonder Cave was cave that was underwhelming R.Smit

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 12:19 AM, David via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> A caver posted 4 helmet-cam video clips 4 days ago on YouTube of what
> looks like them caving in ISC with
> quiet a bit of water in the passages. Is that anybody here ?
>
> Also,
>
> Back on June 9th, there was a celebration at ISC.
>
>
> https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13391432_10154311343212853_8262470945045117389_o.jpg
>
> Prof. Lundelius allegedly gave a presentation.
>
> Did anybody you know go to this ?
>
> Are there any cavers or former cavers in the photo above ?
>
> David Locklear
>
>
> P.S.
>
> ISC was my first cave tour in 1969.Probably the summer of 1969.
> My next cave tour was
> Louis & Clark Caverns in Idaho, in the spring of 1970.
>
> I have been to the Squid Room twice with Mr. Jasek, once around 1987
> and again around 1995.
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>



-- 
Charlie Loving
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