RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Louise Power]

This was also pointed out in the story.

From: fholt@townandcountryins.comTo: power_lou...@hotmail.com; 
wavyca...@gmail.com; mikeflan@att.netCC: ot@texascavers.comDate: Fri, 27 Jun 
2008 15:02:15 -0500Subject: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling








Our incomes will not increase in the same proportion so if this happens I may 
see if I can buy Locklear’s scooter.
Fritz
 




From: Louise Power [mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, June 27, 
2008 11:31 AMTo: Don Cooper; Mike FlanniganCc: ot@texascavers.comSubject: RE: 
[ot_caving] an option to drilling
 
And I heard on the news this morning that by 2010, gas will be $7-10/gal.



List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:54:08 -0500From: wavycaver@gmail.comTo: 
mikeflan@att.netCC: ot@texascavers.comSubject: Re: RE: [ot_caving] an option to 
drillingAnd LET ME - Not David Locklear this time - make this 
assertion/prediction:If you think your electric bill is high now - just wait 
until you charge up your car every night with house current!I will bet that 
you're looking at a $500 per month increase (above your $200 to $300 per month 
bill) if you get an electric car and IF the grid can support millions of people 
going "electric".A guy who can appreciate what energy it takes to move a 
couple of tons around -WaV

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mike Flannigan  wrote:
That is the same media who tells us every couple monthsabout cars that run on 
water.  What morons.Mike 

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008, power_lou...@hotmail.com wrote:>>Very interesting. I knew 
that we don't "make" hydrogen, but that's the term the media uses when 
reporting it.>


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RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Fritz Holt]

Our incomes will not increase in the same proportion so if this happens I may 
see if I can buy Locklear's scooter.
Fritz


From: Louise Power [mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 11:31 AM
To: Don Cooper; Mike Flannigan
Cc: o...@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

And I heard on the news this morning that by 2010, gas will be $7-10/gal.

List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:54:08 -0500
From: wavyca...@gmail.com
To: mikef...@att.net
CC: o...@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

And LET ME - Not David Locklear this time - make this assertion/prediction:
If you think your electric bill is high now - just wait until you charge up 
your car every night with house current!
I will bet that you're looking at a $500 per month increase (above your $200 to 
$300 per month bill) if you get an electric car and IF the grid can support 
millions of people going "electric".
A guy who can appreciate what energy it takes to move a couple of tons around -
WaV
On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mike Flannigan 
mailto:mikef...@att.net>> wrote:

That is the same media who tells us every couple months
about cars that run on water.  What morons.


Mike



On Mon, 23 Jun 2008, power_lou...@hotmail.com<mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com> 
wrote:
>
>Very interesting. I knew that we don't "make" hydrogen, but that's the term 
>the media uses when reporting it.
>
-
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ot-subscr...@texascavers.com<mailto:ot-subscr...@texascavers.com>
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Re: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Don Cooper]

Hmmm. maybe I need to adjust my slide rule   more calculations
inevitably will be distributed
-WaV

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 11:30 AM, Louise Power 
wrote:

>  And I heard on the news this morning that by 2010, gas will be $7-10/gal.
>
> --
> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:54:08 -0500
> From: wavyca...@gmail.com
> To: mikef...@att.net
> CC: o...@texascavers.com
> Subject: Re: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling
>
> And LET ME - Not David Locklear this time - make this assertion/prediction:
> If you think your electric bill is high now - just wait until you charge up
> your car every night with house current!
> I will bet that you're looking at a $500 per month increase (above your
> $200 to $300 per month bill) if you get an electric car and IF the grid can
> support millions of people going "electric".
> A guy who can appreciate what energy it takes to move a couple of tons
> around -
> WaV
>
> On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mike Flannigan  wrote:
>
>
> That is the same media who tells us every couple months
> about cars that run on water.  What morons.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Mon, 23 Jun 2008, power_lou...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> >Very interesting. I knew that we don't "make" hydrogen, but that's the
> term the media uses when reporting it.
> >
>
>  -
> Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
>

RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Louise Power]

And I heard on the news this morning that by 2010, gas will be $7-10/gal.

List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:54:08 -0500From: wavycaver@gmail.comTo: 
mikeflan@att.netCC: ot@texascavers.comSubject: Re: RE: [ot_caving] an option to 
drillingAnd LET ME - Not David Locklear this time - make this 
assertion/prediction:If you think your electric bill is high now - just wait 
until you charge up your car every night with house current!I will bet that 
you're looking at a $500 per month increase (above your $200 to $300 per month 
bill) if you get an electric car and IF the grid can support millions of people 
going "electric".A guy who can appreciate what energy it takes to move a 
couple of tons around -WaV
On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mike Flannigan  wrote:
That is the same media who tells us every couple monthsabout cars that run on 
water.  What morons.Mike 
On Mon, 23 Jun 2008, power_lou...@hotmail.com wrote:>>Very interesting. I knew 
that we don't "make" hydrogen, but that's the term the media uses when 
reporting it.>


-Give this 
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Re: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Bill Bentley]

A guy in Odessa built a electric car or actually converted a old AMC Pacer and 
he said it cost him $13.00 of electric power a month to drive it. he works in 
Midland and drives it back and fourth every day.

I think it was featured on the program "Texas Country Reporter"

Bill
  - Original Message - 
  From: Don Cooper 
  To: Mike Flannigan 
  Cc: o...@texascavers.com 
  Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 11:54 PM
  Subject: Re: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling


  And LET ME - Not David Locklear this time - make this assertion/prediction:
  If you think your electric bill is high now - just wait until you charge up 
your car every night with house current!
  I will bet that you're looking at a $500 per month increase (above your $200 
to $300 per month bill) if you get an electric car and IF the grid can support 
millions of people going "electric".
  A guy who can appreciate what energy it takes to move a couple of tons around 
-
  WaV


  On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mike Flannigan  wrote:


That is the same media who tells us every couple months
about cars that run on water.  What morons.


Mike



On Mon, 23 Jun 2008, power_lou...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>Very interesting. I knew that we don't "make" hydrogen, but that's the 
term the media uses when reporting it.
>


-
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Re: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Don Cooper]

And LET ME - Not David Locklear this time - make this assertion/prediction:
If you think your electric bill is high now - just wait until you charge up
your car every night with house current!
I will bet that you're looking at a $500 per month increase (above your $200
to $300 per month bill) if you get an electric car and IF the grid can
support millions of people going "electric".
A guy who can appreciate what energy it takes to move a couple of tons
around -
WaV

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Mike Flannigan  wrote:

>
> That is the same media who tells us every couple months
> about cars that run on water.  What morons.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Mon, 23 Jun 2008, power_lou...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> >Very interesting. I knew that we don't "make" hydrogen, but that's the
> term the media uses when reporting it.
> >
>
> -
> Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
>
>

Re: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Mike Flannigan]

That is the same media who tells us every couple months
about cars that run on water.  What morons.


Mike


On Mon, 23 Jun 2008, power_lou...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>Very interesting. I knew that we don't "make" hydrogen, but that's the 
term the media uses when reporting it.

>

-
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RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[RD Milhollin]

I am dumbfounded by the reaction in and around Erath County to the prospect
of a potential wind farm development between Lingleville and Gorman. My
family's ranch is out there and I spent a lot of time there growing up. I
can tell you that ranching is a very iffy prospect, a dry year can spell
financial woes, three. ruin. Back in high school I remember that the land
was leased for gas exploration, the checks were cashed but no well was ever
drilled. Oil and gas has been in production for 40 years to the north, but
just them cows munching grass in the back pasture at the old home place.

 

There is a local website out there (Erath County) blasting the idea of wind
turbines, but no mention of gas wells. I would love to get into one of the
meetings this group holds and raise the issues of explosions, fires,
chemical spills, pipeline ROW wars, the smell, the noise, I could go on. In
that particular neck of the woods I personally feel that wind turbines could
ADD to the aesthetic appeal of the landscape. Don't get me wrong. I love the
land, but the economic reality is that it is hard to make the land produce,
and the beauty there is at a micro level as compared to macro (i.e.
wildflowers, individual woods as compared to canyons or mountains). I saw an
unscientific survey recently of residents in and around Granbury/Glen Rose
saying they would welcome expansion of the nuclear facility there to maybe
three or four units. 

 

Given all the noise about energy today, I think wind turbines are not a bad
option to have for a neighbor. Cows, or grapes for that matter, can live
under and between the units, the actual footprint is considerably smaller
that a coal or nuclear plant, and hydroelectric is out of the question since
there is no water. I first saw a wind turbine farm on Lanzarote several
years ago, and thought it was beautiful. Perhaps I didn't realize then that
some of the beauty may have been in that I could SEE the turbines from a
considerable distance since there was no smoke produced along with the
electrical power. 

 

Hmmm. Rambling

 

RD

 

  _  

From: Louise Power [mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 4:02 PM
To: rdmilhol...@charter.net; 'Don Cooper'
Cc: qui...@clearwire.net; 'Fritz Holt'; o...@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

 

I'm sorry, I mis-spoke. It is the power companies funding these. Here's the
info. It was on CBS Sunday Morning:
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/02/sunday/main3563344.shtml
 
Sorry for the confusion.

Louise

  _  

From: rdmilhol...@charter.net
To: power_lou...@hotmail.com; wavyca...@gmail.com
CC: qui...@clearwire.net; fh...@townandcountryins.com; o...@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:38:46 -0500

 

 

  _  

From: Louise Power [mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 11:05 AM
To: Don Cooper
Cc: qui...@clearwire.net; Fritz Holt; o...@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

 
"Heard a couple of interesting stories on the news this weekend and this
morning. One was on the wind farms in West Texas. Apparently a lot of
ranchers are leasing their land to the government for wind farms to
supplement the $$ lost in the foundering cattle business. They also
interviewed one rancher who was opposed to installing the wind machines
saying that the ranchers who took advantage of the opportunity were not
being considerate to their neighbors when they allowed the government to
erect hundreds and hundreds of wind machines as far as they eye could see." 

 

Did the news REALLY say that the ranchers are leasing their land to the
GOVERNMENT for use as wind farms? Itwould be news to me that the government
is in the wind farm business.

Re: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Don Cooper]

Interesting concept.   Out west - southwest of Houston, out in the sprawling
farmland is a Children's Home which was given a large wind-turbine many
years ago.  It's long since fallen into disrepair and no longer actually
generates power.  It hasn't in years.  But it's still turning.

My brother wanted to buy it - but talks with the facilities' administrators
never resolved a plan or price.   He took me out there to see it on a very
windy day last fall.  It's three huge 45 foot long blades swung ominously
through the air with the sound of a tennis pros racket at its  fastest
possible delivery.

It's downright scary to think of what could happen when wind turbines go
bad!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jOO7YdrFXkM&feature=related
Oh, the humanity

-WaV

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Louise Power 
wrote:

point was that he thought this is a fad industry which would fall by the
> wayside and, when wind power was no longer useful, there would be all those
> machines cluttering up the view. I wonder if his is a majority or minority
> view.
>
>
>

RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Louise Power]

I'm sorry, I mis-spoke. It is the power companies funding these. Here's the 
info. It was on CBS Sunday Morning:
 
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/02/sunday/main3563344.shtml
 
Sorry for the confusion.Louise


From: rdmilhollin@charter.netTo: power_lou...@hotmail.com; 
wavycaver@gmail.comCC: qui...@clearwire.net; fh...@townandcountryins.com; 
ot@texascavers.comSubject: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drillingDate: Mon, 23 
Jun 2008 15:38:46 -0500








 
 




From: Louise Power [mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, June 23, 
2008 11:05 AMTo: Don CooperCc: qui...@clearwire.net; Fritz Holt; 
ot@texascavers.comSubject: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling
 “Heard a couple of interesting stories on the news this weekend and this 
morning. One was on the wind farms in West Texas. Apparently a lot of ranchers 
are leasing their land to the government for wind farms to supplement the $$ 
lost in the foundering cattle business. They also interviewed one rancher who 
was opposed to installing the wind machines saying that the ranchers who took 
advantage of the opportunity were not being considerate to their neighbors when 
they allowed the government to erect hundreds and hundreds of wind machines as 
far as they eye could see.” 
 
Did the news REALLY say that the ranchers are leasing their land to the 
GOVERNMENT for use as wind farms? Itwould be news to me that the government is 
in the wind farm business.

RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[RD Milhollin]

 

 

  _  

From: Louise Power [mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 11:05 AM
To: Don Cooper
Cc: qui...@clearwire.net; Fritz Holt; o...@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

 
"Heard a couple of interesting stories on the news this weekend and this
morning. One was on the wind farms in West Texas. Apparently a lot of
ranchers are leasing their land to the government for wind farms to
supplement the $$ lost in the foundering cattle business. They also
interviewed one rancher who was opposed to installing the wind machines
saying that the ranchers who took advantage of the opportunity were not
being considerate to their neighbors when they allowed the government to
erect hundreds and hundreds of wind machines as far as they eye could see." 

 

Did the news REALLY say that the ranchers are leasing their land to the
GOVERNMENT for use as wind farms? Itwould be news to me that the government
is in the wind farm business.

Re: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[quinta]

"their neighbors when they allowed the government to erect hundreds and 
hundreds of wind machines as far as they eye could see. His point was that he 
thought this is a fad industry which would fall by the wayside and, when wind 
power was no longer useful, there would be all those machines cluttering up the 
view. I wonder if his is a majority or minority view."

Your remark made me wonder also. 
http://www.infinitepower.org/projects.htm
This site seems to have most of the renewable info on it and who owns it. There 
are links for Geothermal and more. The El Paso Solar Pond was one I had nor 
heard about.
I use Texas Electric who had an opetion -  I had a option to sign up and they 
would promise to use up to 10% renewal power.for a better price. It has been 
two years now.
Quinta

RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Louise Power]

Very interesting. I knew that we don't "make" hydrogen, but that's the term the 
media uses when reporting it.
 
Heard a couple of interesting stories on the news this weekend and this 
morning. One was on the wind farms in West Texas. Apparently a lot of ranchers 
are leasing their land to the government for wind farms to supplement the $$ 
lost in the foundering cattle business. They also interviewed one rancher who 
was opposed to installing the wind machines saying that the ranchers who took 
advantage of the opportunity were not being considerate to their neighbors when 
they allowed the government to erect hundreds and hundreds of wind machines as 
far as they eye could see. His point was that he thought this is a fad industry 
which would fall by the wayside and, when wind power was no longer useful, 
there would be all those machines cluttering up the view. I wonder if his is a 
majority or minority view.
 
The other story was how restaurants in Southern California are having to lockup 
their waste cooking oil bins because thieves come in during the night and pump 
them dry. People whose livelihood is the legal pumping of this waste oil are 
finding it hard to make a living. Apparently waste cooking oil is the new 
"gold."> Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 02:10:29 -0500> From: wavyca...@gmail.com> To: 
power_lou...@hotmail.com> CC: qui...@clearwire.net; 
fh...@townandcountryins.com; o...@texascavers.com> Subject: Re: [ot_caving] an 
option to drilling> > What makes ISOLATING hydrogen expensive is the energy 
cost.> (You do not make hydrogen. It is the most abundant element in the> 
universe. Yes, you probably know that anyway)> If you consider "free energy" 
such as tidal forces - (something that's> only just beginning to be harnessed - 
think 'wind turbines', but> underwater) - wind, hydrothermal, solar and nuclear 
(all of these are> "FREE" - even nuclear is nearly free - it's just that the 
initial> setup costs are astronomical!)> Using a source of energy such as 
natural gas or petroleum to isolate> hydrogen is ridiculous.> It's ridiculous 
to make hydrogen with electrical current from the grid> too - because that's 
like using coal to make electricity to isolate> hydrogen. I don't know what the 
loss factor is, but I'm guessing> that for every 1000 watts of electrical 
energy you use at home, that> energy started out as 1100 or 1500 watts - 
because of line and> transformer losses - you end up with less than was 
generated in the> first place.> And perhaps there are better ways than 
electrolysis to split hydrogen> from water - or maybe to remove oxygen from 
water so that you've got> only hydrogen left... But however it's done - NO, 
there just ain't no> way to get more energy from oxidizing hydrogen than it 
takes to break> it from oxygen! That's just one of those basic laws of 
physics.> Running your car on water is a bunch of HOOEY. It's hard to believe> 
news reporters are so stupid that they could be duped into covering> crap like 
that. Just like that stupid perpetual motion machine. Every> system "looses" 
energy at every transition.> > Back to where I was coming from, was that "free 
energy" is virtually> impossible to use in an automobile of any technology. You 
cant drive> around with a hydroelectric dam strapped to the bed of your truck.> 
Nor would you be able to get under even the tallest overpasses with a> wind 
turbine attached to it. Despite how excited everyone got back> in the 50's 
about powering your car with a small nuclear reactor - its> just not practical. 
But pure hydrogen is more energy concentrated> than even gasoline - and it 
doesn't pollute.> > I don't know ANYONE that can synthesize gasoline. I sure 
wish I did!> But even I can make alcohol with a bunch of barley and corn, rice 
or> wheat. (barley contains that magic enzyme "amylase" that converts> starches 
into sugar - sugar then feeds yeast that excrete alcohol).> I can also isolate 
little small amounts of hydrogen with electricity> or by dropping zinc into 
hydrochloric acid - (the latter being far> more expensive but a whole lot 
faster)> > Maybe there's a better way to 'keep' hydrogen. Consider perhaps a> 
molecule that holds huge groups or chains of hydrogen together just> like 
carbon does in hydrocarbons. Maybe its possible to use> electricity and 
hydrogen in some undiscovered way to turn hydrogen> into a hydrogen based 
man-made 'hydrocarbon-like' molecule that could> replace gasoline.> > When you 
think about it, is there ANY fuel that DOESN'T contain> hydrogen or 
hydrocarbons of one form or another? Even FOOD contains> hy

Re: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Don Cooper]

What makes ISOLATING hydrogen expensive is the energy cost.
(You do not make hydrogen.  It is the most abundant element in the
universe. Yes, you probably know that anyway)
If you consider "free energy" such as tidal forces - (something that's
only just beginning to be harnessed - think 'wind turbines', but
underwater) - wind, hydrothermal, solar and nuclear (all of these are
"FREE"  - even nuclear is nearly free - it's just that the initial
setup costs are astronomical!)
Using a source of energy such as natural gas or petroleum to isolate
hydrogen is ridiculous.
It's ridiculous to make hydrogen with electrical current from the grid
too - because that's like using coal to make electricity to isolate
hydrogen.   I don't know what the loss factor is, but I'm guessing
that for every 1000 watts of electrical energy you use at home, that
energy started out as 1100 or 1500 watts - because of line and
transformer losses - you end up with less than was generated in the
first place.
And perhaps there are better ways than electrolysis to split hydrogen
from water - or maybe to remove oxygen from water so that you've got
only hydrogen left...  But however it's done - NO, there just ain't no
way to get more energy from oxidizing hydrogen than it takes to break
it from oxygen!  That's just one of those basic laws of physics.
Running your car on water is a bunch of HOOEY.  It's hard to believe
news reporters are so stupid that they could be duped into covering
crap like that. Just like that stupid perpetual motion machine.  Every
system "looses" energy at every transition.

Back to where I was coming from, was that "free energy" is virtually
impossible to use in an automobile of any technology.  You cant drive
around with a hydroelectric dam strapped to the bed of your truck.
Nor would you be able to get under even the tallest overpasses with a
wind turbine attached to it.   Despite how excited everyone got back
in the 50's about powering your car with a small nuclear reactor - its
just not practical.  But pure hydrogen is more energy concentrated
than even gasoline - and it doesn't pollute.

I don't know ANYONE that can synthesize gasoline.  I sure wish I did!
But even I can make alcohol with a bunch of barley and corn, rice or
wheat.  (barley contains that magic enzyme "amylase" that converts
starches into sugar - sugar then feeds yeast that excrete alcohol).
I can also isolate little small amounts of hydrogen with electricity
or by dropping zinc into hydrochloric acid - (the latter being far
more expensive but a whole lot faster)

Maybe there's a better way to 'keep' hydrogen.  Consider perhaps a
molecule that holds huge groups or chains of hydrogen together just
like carbon does in hydrocarbons. Maybe its possible to use
electricity and hydrogen in some undiscovered way to turn hydrogen
into a hydrogen based man-made 'hydrocarbon-like' molecule that could
replace gasoline.

When you think about it, is there ANY fuel that DOESN'T contain
hydrogen or hydrocarbons of one form or another?  Even FOOD contains
hydrocarbons in the form of carbohydrates.

Is there any fuel that does NOT contain hydrogen?  I don't think so.
Not unless it's plutonium or uranium.

-WaV

On 6/21/08, Louise Power  wrote:
>
> I keep hearing that it's more expensive to make hydrogen than the amount you
> would save. How does your suggestion jibe with that?>
> ot-h...@texascavers.com>

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RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Louise Power]

I keep hearing that it's more expensive to make hydrogen than the amount you 
would save. How does your suggestion jibe with that?> Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 
15:48:10 -0500> From: wavyca...@gmail.com> To: power_lou...@hotmail.com> CC: 
qui...@clearwire.net; fh...@townandcountryins.com; o...@texascavers.com> 
Subject: Re: [ot_caving] an option to drilling> > Here's an idea:> What about 
turning all of that electricity generated by a wind turbine> into hydrogen?> 
Right there in the wind turbine itself. Using water and electrolysis.> If 
hydrogen truly is going to be the portable energy source (for fuel> cells) 
would it not make the most sense to produce the hydrogen at the> source rather 
than losing electrical energy as it is transmitted> through transmission lines? 
(Producing massive amounts of hydrogen> would probably also be a great idea at 
the site of nuclear reactors.> Free oxygen released into the atmosphere would 
probably not hurt> either!)> The concept is already in play. One interesting 
obstacle is what> occurs when metals are exposed to hydrogen. I think the 
process is> called "hydrogenation" and it makes metal brittle and weak. But> 
isolated from the tower by an isolating layer of plastic, the large> mast that 
makes the big wind turbine tower becomes a nice storage tank> for compressed 
hydrogen.> Compressing the metal tube from within would actually make the mast> 
stronger - but only up to the point that the stress might make the> tower 
stressed - but otherwise would make the tubular mast stiffer.> > On 6/21/08, 
Louise Power  wrote:> >> > From what I hear, one of 
the really big problems in the US is that no new> > refineries have been built 
here in 30 years. What's up with that? Answer:> > NIMBY. Even if we get more 
oil, what are we going to do with it?> >> > Also, think oil shale and oil 
sands. I hear that they're doing some> > imaginative things with oil shale, 
such as heating it while it's still in> > the ground and then pumping from 
there rather than excavating huge holes in> > the ground.. Also, apparently 
Canada is right on top of the oil sands> > business.> >> >> > From: 
quinta@clearwire.netTo: power_lou...@hotmail.com;> > 
fh...@townandcountryins.com; ot@texascavers.comDate: Sat, 21 Jun 2008> > 
06:56:29 -0500Subject: Re: [ot_caving] an option to drilling> >> >> >> > 
Fritz,> > My complaint is that we started after many and did not devote enough> 
> government resources to it. Most of Europe did. Even Spain was ahead of us> > 
at one time and still is I think. We lost sight of the OPEC oil problem in a> > 
hurry. There is a new company in Idaho? (if my memory is right) that is from> > 
Spain and is building turbins. I think it opened in the last year. We are> > 
behind on a lot of this. The states that are doing well are the ones with> > 
state incentives. There was a new Senate hearing on this sort of thing -> > 
ummm!> >> > This is from the BWEA in the UK.> >> > It is clear to see how much 
wind energy has taken off in some countries,> > notably Denmark, Germany and 
Spain, the first of which now gets 20% of it's> > electricity from wind 
turbines, compared to our 1%. However, the UK has the> > largest wind energy 
resources of any country in Europe, and now that the> > European market's 
economies of scale have driven the price of wind energy> > down, the UK is set 
for a massive expansion of clean energy.> > For more information about wind 
energy in Europe read this report> > commissioned by the European Union in 
2004. Also visit www.ewea.org our> > European sister organisation.> > They 
speak in terms of TWh - I need to look up what that is past MW.> > The 
exploitable onshore wind resource for the EU-25 is> > conservatively estimated 
at 600 TWh and the offshore> > wind resource up to 3,000 TWh; the upper end of 
this far> > exceeding the EU-15's entire electricity consumption.> > The 
European Wind Atlas produced by the Danish national> > research laboratory, 
Forskningscenter Risø, gives a> > good overview of the EU potential. An 
offshore version is> > also available.> > 
-> Give 
this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: 
ot-h...@texascavers.com> 

Re: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[quinta]

'no new refineries have'  I think that was what the big deal was when they lost 
one in Rita. Not enough capacity. 

Re: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Don Cooper]

Here's an idea:
What about turning all of that electricity generated by a wind turbine
into hydrogen?
Right there in the wind turbine itself.  Using water and electrolysis.
If hydrogen truly is going to be the portable energy source (for fuel
cells) would it not make the most sense to produce the hydrogen at the
source rather than losing electrical energy as it is transmitted
through transmission lines?  (Producing massive amounts of hydrogen
would probably also be a great idea at the site of nuclear reactors.
Free oxygen released into the atmosphere would probably not hurt
either!)
The concept is already in play.  One interesting obstacle is what
occurs when metals are exposed to hydrogen.  I think the process is
called "hydrogenation" and it makes metal brittle and weak.  But
isolated from the tower by an isolating layer of plastic, the large
mast that makes the big wind turbine tower becomes a nice storage tank
for compressed hydrogen.
Compressing the metal tube from within would actually make the mast
stronger - but only up to the point that the stress might make the
tower stressed - but otherwise would make the tubular mast stiffer.

On 6/21/08, Louise Power  wrote:
>
> From what I hear, one of the really big problems in the US is that no new
> refineries have been built here in 30 years. What's up with that? Answer:
> NIMBY. Even if we get more oil, what are we going to do with it?
>
> Also, think oil shale and oil sands. I hear that they're doing some
> imaginative things with oil shale, such as heating it while it's still in
> the ground and then pumping from there rather than excavating huge holes in
> the ground.. Also, apparently Canada is right on top of the oil sands
> business.
>
>
> From: quinta@clearwire.netTo: power_lou...@hotmail.com;
> fh...@townandcountryins.com; ot@texascavers.comDate: Sat, 21 Jun 2008
> 06:56:29 -0500Subject: Re: [ot_caving] an option to drilling
>
>
>
> Fritz,
> My complaint is that we started after many and did not devote enough
> government resources to it. Most of Europe did. Even Spain was ahead of us
> at one time and still is I think. We lost sight of the OPEC oil problem in a
> hurry. There is a new company in Idaho? (if my memory is right) that is from
> Spain and is building turbins. I think it opened in the last year. We are
> behind on a lot of this. The states that are doing well are the ones with
> state incentives. There was a new Senate hearing on this sort of thing  -
> ummm!
>
> This is from the BWEA in the UK.
>
> It is clear to see how much wind energy has taken off in some countries,
> notably Denmark, Germany and Spain, the first of which now gets 20% of it's
> electricity from wind turbines, compared to our 1%. However, the UK has the
> largest wind energy resources of any country in Europe, and now that the
> European market's economies of scale have driven the price of wind energy
> down, the UK is set for a massive expansion of clean energy.
> For more information about wind energy in Europe read this report
> commissioned by the European Union in 2004. Also visit www.ewea.org our
> European sister organisation.
> They speak in terms of TWh - I need to look up what that is past MW.
> The exploitable onshore wind resource for the EU-25 is
> conservatively estimated at 600 TWh and the offshore
> wind resource up to 3,000 TWh; the upper end of this far
> exceeding the EU-15's entire electricity consumption.
> The European Wind Atlas produced by the Danish national
> research laboratory, Forskningscenter Risø, gives a
> good overview of the EU potential. An offshore version is
> also available.

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RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Louise Power]

>From what I hear, one of the really big problems in the US is that no new 
>refineries have been built here in 30 years. What's up with that? Answer: 
>NIMBY. Even if we get more oil, what are we going to do with it? 
 
Also, think oil shale and oil sands. I hear that they're doing some imaginative 
things with oil shale, such as heating it while it's still in the ground and 
then pumping from there rather than excavating huge holes in the ground.. Also, 
apparently Canada is right on top of the oil sands business.


From: quinta@clearwire.netTo: power_lou...@hotmail.com; 
fh...@townandcountryins.com; ot@texascavers.comDate: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 06:56:29 
-0500Subject: Re: [ot_caving] an option to drilling



Fritz, 
My complaint is that we started after many and did not devote enough government 
resources to it. Most of Europe did. Even Spain was ahead of us at one time and 
still is I think. We lost sight of the OPEC oil problem in a hurry. There is a 
new company in Idaho? (if my memory is right) that is from Spain and is 
building turbins. I think it opened in the last year. We are behind on a lot of 
this. The states that are doing well are the ones with state incentives. There 
was a new Senate hearing on this sort of thing  - ummm! 
 
This is from the BWEA in the UK. 

It is clear to see how much wind energy has taken off in some countries, 
notably Denmark, Germany and Spain, the first of which now gets 20% of it's 
electricity from wind turbines, compared to our 1%. However, the UK has the 
largest wind energy resources of any country in Europe, and now that the 
European market's economies of scale have driven the price of wind energy down, 
the UK is set for a massive expansion of clean energy.
For more information about wind energy in Europe read this report commissioned 
by the European Union in 2004. Also visit www.ewea.org our European sister 
organisation.
They speak in terms of TWh - I need to look up what that is past MW. 
The exploitable onshore wind resource for the EU-25 is
conservatively estimated at 600 TWh and the offshore
wind resource up to 3,000 TWh; the upper end of this far
exceeding the EU-15’s entire electricity consumption.
The European Wind Atlas produced by the Danish national
research laboratory, Forskningscenter Risø, gives a
good overview of the EU potential. An offshore version is
also available.

Re: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Nico Escamilla]

KWh:kilowatt hour or 103 W·h
MWh: megawatt hour or 106 W·h
GWh: gigawatt hour or 109 W·h
TWh: TeraWatt hour or 1012 W·h

On Sat, Jun 21, 2008 at 6:56 AM,  wrote:

>  Fritz,
> My complaint is that we started after many and did not devote
> enough government resources to it. Most of Europe did. Even Spain was ahead
> of us at one time and still is I think. We lost sight of the OPEC oil
> problem in a hurry. There is a new company in Idaho? (if my memory is right)
> that is from Spain and is building turbins. I think it opened in the last
> year. We are behind on a lot of this. The states that are doing well are the
> ones with state incentives. There was a new Senate hearing on this sort of
> thing  - ummm!
>
> This is from the BWEA in the UK.
>
> It is clear to see how much wind energy has taken off in some countries,
> notably Denmark, Germany and Spain, the first of which now gets *20%* of
> it's electricity from wind turbines, compared to our 1%. However, the UK has
> the largest wind energy resources of any country in Europe, and now that the
> European market's economies of scale have driven the price of wind energy
> down, the UK is set for a massive expansion of clean energy.
>
> For more information about wind energy in Europe read this report
> commissioned by the European 
> Unionin 2004. Also visit
> www.ewea.org our European sister organisation.
>
> They speak in terms of TWh - I need to look up what that is past MW.
>
> The exploitable onshore wind resource for the EU-25 is
>
> conservatively estimated at 600 TWh and the offshore
>
> wind resource up to 3,000 TWh; the upper end of this far
>
> exceeding the EU-15's entire electricity consumption.
>
> The
> *European Wind Atlas *produced by the Danish national
>
> research laboratory, Forskningscenter Risø, gives a
>
> good overview of the EU potential. An offshore version is
>
> also available.
>

Re: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[quinta]

Fritz, 
My complaint is that we started after many and did not devote enough government 
resources to it. Most of Europe did. Even Spain was ahead of us at one time and 
still is I think. We lost sight of the OPEC oil problem in a hurry. There is a 
new company in Idaho? (if my memory is right) that is from Spain and is 
building turbins. I think it opened in the last year. We are behind on a lot of 
this. The states that are doing well are the ones with state incentives. There 
was a new Senate hearing on this sort of thing  - ummm! 

This is from the BWEA in the UK. 
It is clear to see how much wind energy has taken off in some countries, 
notably Denmark, Germany and Spain, the first of which now gets 20% of it's 
electricity from wind turbines, compared to our 1%. However, the UK has the 
largest wind energy resources of any country in Europe, and now that the 
European market's economies of scale have driven the price of wind energy down, 
the UK is set for a massive expansion of clean energy.

For more information about wind energy in Europe read this report commissioned 
by the European Union in 2004. Also visit www.ewea.org our European sister 
organisation.

They speak in terms of TWh - I need to look up what that is past MW. 

The exploitable onshore wind resource for the EU-25 is

conservatively estimated at 600 TWh and the offshore

wind resource up to 3,000 TWh; the upper end of this far

exceeding the EU-15's entire electricity consumption.

The European Wind Atlas produced by the Danish national

research laboratory, Forskningscenter Risø, gives a

good overview of the EU potential. An offshore version is

also available.

Re: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[CaverArch]

Fritz, I believe that the credit for wind farm proliferation in Texas can 
actually be credited to the State (as well as to a lot of wind).  Texas has 
some significant incentives for wind power.  I once read how many households 
could be lit if the state's full potential was realized, and it was quite a few 
(350,000 sticks in my head).

Roger Moore

In a message dated 06/19/08 15:49:48 Central Daylight Time, 
power_lou...@hotmail.com writes:
Plus, I'm not sure you can get enough energy from turbines to power some of the 
larger cities. But, I'm not a turbine expert, so what do I know.




From: fh...@townandcountryins.com
To: qui...@clearwire.net; o...@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:46:03 -0500
Subject: RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling 


Quinta,
Wind turbines are being erected as fast as private enterprise can construct 
them. I would believe that tax incentives are given by the federal government. 
You regularly see them being transported on large flatbed trucks heading west 
on Interstate 10 in the Houston area. The latest issue of Texas Highways has a 
spread on Midland/Odessa showing a multitude of wind generators with more to 
come. The dilemma for environmentalists is the clean energy to the detriment of 
birds and flying mammals.
Fritz




From: qui...@clearwire.net [mailto:qui...@clearwire.net] 
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:51 PM
To: o...@texascavers.com
Subject: [ot_caving] an option to drilling 

There should always be an option.
I hope there is a petition to do some and not all some where out in web land 
and that it calls for more wind and solar.

https://secure2.convio.net/sierra/site/SPageServer?pagename=coastal_drilling_petition

Quinta

= 

Re: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[David]

I work in a shop that repairs large industrial turbines.

In a few years, all of these windmills are going to have to be overhauled.

Whoever is there to get the contracts is going to make millions of
dollars.   The cost of this will be paid by increases in electric bills.

We have a turbine on our shop floor and the customer has paid us
3 million to overhaul it.   I might get about $ 300 of that, if I am still
here when it is finished.

David

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RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Louise Power]

Plus, I'm not sure you can get enough energy from turbines to power some of the 
larger cities. But, I'm not a turbine expert, so what do I know.


From: fholt@townandcountryins.comTo: qui...@clearwire.net; 
ot@texascavers.comDate: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:46:03 -0500Subject: RE: [ot_caving] 
an option to drilling 








Quinta,
Wind turbines are being erected as fast as private enterprise can construct 
them. I would believe that tax incentives are given by the federal government. 
You regularly see them being transported on large flatbed trucks heading west 
on Interstate 10 in the Houston area. The latest issue of Texas Highways has a 
spread on Midland/Odessa showing a multitude of wind generators with more to 
come. The dilemma for environmentalists is the clean energy to the detriment of 
birds and flying mammals.
Fritz
 




From: qui...@clearwire.net [mailto:qui...@clearwire.net] Sent: Thursday, June 
19, 2008 1:51 PMTo: ot@texascavers.comSubject: [ot_caving] an option to 
drilling 
 

There should always be an option.

I hope there is a petition to do some and not all some where out in web land 
and that it calls for more wind and solar.

 

https://secure2.convio.net/sierra/site/SPageServer?pagename=coastal_drilling_petition

 

Quinta

 

RE: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

[Fritz Holt]

Quinta,
Wind turbines are being erected as fast as private enterprise can construct 
them. I would believe that tax incentives are given by the federal government. 
You regularly see them being transported on large flatbed trucks heading west 
on Interstate 10 in the Houston area. The latest issue of Texas Highways has a 
spread on Midland/Odessa showing a multitude of wind generators with more to 
come. The dilemma for environmentalists is the clean energy to the detriment of 
birds and flying mammals.
Fritz


From: qui...@clearwire.net [mailto:qui...@clearwire.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 1:51 PM
To: o...@texascavers.com
Subject: [ot_caving] an option to drilling

There should always be an option.
I hope there is a petition to do some and not all some where out in web land 
and that it calls for more wind and solar.

https://secure2.convio.net/sierra/site/SPageServer?pagename=coastal_drilling_petition

Quinta