[Therion] Strange Ghosting

[Nick Bairstow]

 When I open a .top file on a pc I sometimes get the following result. Lots of 
ghost shots and splays in yellow. Can anybody explain? Is it a pc thing?  All 
the data from the yellow lines is showing in the data view and can be deleted. 
The files go into Therion OK with no yellow lines to be seen so this is not 
really a problem I'd just like to know what's going on.

Thanks,

Nick Bairstow

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[Therion] Strange Ghosting

[Nick Bairstow]

Thanks guys, all understood and sorted. I've not come across this before. PDA 
Pocket Topo settings were different to pc settings. Also the folder in question 
is now tidied up. I had been messing around with a copy of a file, both that 
and original held in the same folder.

Thank you all.

Nick.


From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf 
Of Andrew Atkinson
Sent: 30 May 2014 12:23
To: Therion
Subject: Re: [Therion] Strange Ghosting


Looks to me as you are using the function of pocket topo that if 2, or more, 
top files are in the same folder they are assumed to be the same survey. Yellow 
is other files, red the current one you are working on. I am guessing you have 
a different setting on your pda to you pc. To change hold down to bring up the 
menu, then option, (un)tick show all, as appropriate.

Andrew
On 30 May 2014 11:54, "Nick Bairstow" mailto:Nick at 
pff.uk.com>> wrote:
 When I open a .top file on a pc I sometimes get the following result. Lots of 
ghost shots and splays in yellow. Can anybody explain? Is it a pc thing?  All 
the data from the yellow lines is showing in the data view and can be deleted. 
The files go into Therion OK with no yellow lines to be seen so this is not 
really a problem I'd just like to know what's going on.

Thanks,

Nick Bairstow

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[Therion] Data Management

[Nick Bairstow]

Hi all,
After lots of trial and error I am now producing some good outputs of 
individual caves but now I have hit a wall. I believe I'm not getting the data 
management correct.
Here's what I do, I have a folder for the area/system in that folder I have 
other folders for the individual caves; this is where my Top Parser produced 
th2 .th and config files first landed. I also have all the Therion produced 
outputs in these files.
So far so good I think. All works well, good outputs from pdf's to kml's. Now I 
want to produce a pdf of the area/system using these separate caves but try as 
hard as I may I'm just not succeeding.
I have read all the stuff on the wiki over and over and checked back though 
this mailing list but all my attempts at this output have failed. Next plan of 
attack was to look at other people's data in the Cave Registry Data Archive 
which helped and I now see how the .th and config files should look but I am 
still missing something some where.
I keep seeing snatches of info about index files but can find no definitive 
instruction on how to use them.
I realise this problem probable has a simple solution and given enough time I 
am sure I can work it out but life's too short to dick about for hours 
especially when someone out there has the answer. Also I have a deadline 
looming on some of these maps and I'm now getting a bit worried I will not make 
it.
Any help would be appreciated and if anyone in the Yorkshire area wants to 
compare notes (I'm sure that there are more numptys like me out there) I will 
travel and bring beer.

Nick.




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[Therion] Data Management

[Nick Bairstow]

Andrew, Martin, Rowena,
Thanks for the replies. What I clearly don’t understand are the basic 
building blocks of Therion, folder structures etc
Dave C has kindly offered to look at my stuff and advise so hopefully I will 
sort this out soon.
I suspect I am at a point that a lot of folk get to in their Therion leaning 
curve so once I get my head round this I may write a wiki article about this 
from a novice point of view. It really should be a continuation of Footlegs 
excellent tutorial which I have referred to many times over the last few months.
Andrew, files will be in the registry by the end of the day I promises.

Thanks once again all

Nick.


From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf 
Of Martin Sluka
Sent: 19 August 2015 08:38
To: List for Therion users
Subject: Re: [Therion] Data Management

Nick,

thbook:
• -d ▷ Turn on debugging mode. The current implementation creates a 
temporary directory
named thTMPDIR (in your system temporary directory) and does not delete any
temporary files.

may you run  therion with -d parameter and check the files inside the folder  
thTMPDIR?

May you send me both the log from therion and that folder thTMPDIR zipped?

m.



19. 8. 2015 v 5:20, rowena_l at tpg.com.au:


hello,

I have successfully created an area  PDF for the 70+ caves in my area of 
interest in Australia, using Therion.
Can you give more details of what your result is giving? eg is an error being 
displayed, can you produce a .3d file or .lox file of the survey legs, are you 
able to see  a pdf created that is missing data?

- Original Message -
From:
"List for Therion users" mailto:therion at speleo.sk>>

To:
"List for Therion users" mailto:therion at speleo.sk>>
Cc:

Sent:
Tue, 18 Aug 2015 16:01:45 +0100
Subject:
[Therion] Data Management

Hi all,

After lots of trial and error I am now producing some good outputs of 
individual caves but now I have hit a wall. I believe I’m not getting the 
data management correct.

Here’s what I do, I have a folder for the area/system in that folder I have 
other folders for the individual caves; this is where my Top Parser produced 
th2 .th and config files first landed. I also have all the Therion produced 
outputs in these files.

So far so good I think. All works well, good outputs from pdf’s to kml’s. 
Now I want to produce a pdf of the area/system using these separate caves but 
try as hard as I may I’m just not succeeding.

I have read all the stuff on the wiki over and over and checked back though 
this mailing list but all my attempts at this output have failed. Next plan of 
attack was to look at other people’s data in the Cave Registry Data Archive 
which helped and I now see how the .th and config files should look but I am 
still missing something some where.

I keep seeing snatches of info about index files but can find no definitive 
instruction on how to use them.

I realise this problem probable has a simple solution and given enough time I 
am sure I can work it out but life’s too short to dick about for hours 
especially when someone out there has the answer. Also I have a deadline 
looming on some of these maps and I’m now getting a bit worried I will not 
make it.

Any help would be appreciated and if anyone in the Yorkshire area wants to 
compare notes (I’m sure that there are more numptys like me out there) I will 
travel and bring beer.



Nick.









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[Therion] The goal with joining scraps

[Nick Bairstow]

Martin, if scraps are in the same survey do they need joining to morph.

-Original Message-
From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf 
Of Martin Sluka
Sent: 24 August 2015 17:59
To: List for Therion users
Subject: Re: [Therion] The goal with joining scraps


> 24. 8. 2015 v 18:35, torstein finnesand :
> 
> 2. Do you always joins the scraps?
> Are there some situations when its not necessary, or even wrong, to join 
> scraps?

Only if morphing is necessary.

m.
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[Therion] Therion Will Not Start On New XP Install

[Nick Bairstow]

Hi, I just re-installed XP Pro on a laptop, updated everything, installed 
Therion and I get the following error.

This application has failed to start because the application configuration is 
incorrect.Reinstalling the application may fix this problem.  

I'm running Therion on two other XP machines with no problems.I have looked 
everywhere for an answer with no luck. What have I missed, any ideas.

Thanks,

Nick Bairstow

[Therion] Therion Will Not Start On New XP Install

[Nick Bairstow]

Hi, SP3 is there. I will double check everything again and let you know. Any 
more ideas would be appreciated.
I keep thinking about linux but I have no experience at all and would struggle 
to find time to learn at the moment.

Thanks all,

Nick.

-Original Message-
From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf 
Of Filippo Gregori
Sent: 16 February 2015 07:51
To: List for Therion users
Subject: Re: [Therion] Therion Will Not Start On New XP Install

Hi, Why not try to Install a version of linux in your laptop?

Filippo

On 16/02/2015 08:43, Footleg wrote:
> We had problems on a recent training course getting Therion installed on
> one XP laptop. It turned out in that case that service pack 3 had not been
> installed. So that is one thing to check.
> 
> Paul
> On 15 Feb 2015 17:26, "Nick Bairstow"  wrote:
> 
>> Hi, I just re-installed XP Pro on a laptop, updated everything, installed
>> Therion and I get the following error.
>>
>> This application has failed to start because the application configuration
>> is incorrect.Reinstalling the application may fix this problem.
>>
>> I'm running Therion on two other XP machines with no problems.I have
>> looked everywhere for an answer with no luck. What have I missed, any ideas.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Nick Bairstow
>> ___
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>> Therion at speleo.sk
>> http://mailman.speleo.sk/mailman/listinfo/therion
>>
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> 

[Therion] Therion Will Not Start On New XP Install

[Nick Bairstow]

Hi again, problem now sorted. It was my fault as suspected.
When I installed XP Pro I did all the service pack updates etc but went 
straight to .Net 4 which was a mistake. I was under the impression that by 
installing the latest .Net framework that would cover all the previous releases 
as well.
To correct this I uninstalled all the .Net stuff I could. Not .Net 1.0 and 
relevant service packs as this installed with the operating system. I then 
installed .Net 2.0, SP1, SP2 and so on which I think is basically a constant 
upgrade but all in order and not jumping to the last version first. I let 
windows update automatically run the updates using the custom option to select 
only the updates relevant to the .Net level I had achieved at that point. I 
also restarted the machine at every stage to be on the safe side.
Once I had .Net 3.5 installed Therion fired up, yahoo.
Also Pocket Topo will not run without .Net 2.0
With hindsight this now seems pretty obvious; the moral of the story is "don't 
rush though long installs" do it once, do it right.

Thanks again,

Nick.


From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf 
Of Footleg
Sent: 16 February 2015 07:44
To: List for Therion users
Subject: Re: [Therion] Therion Will Not Start On New XP Install


We had problems on a recent training course getting Therion installed on one XP 
laptop. It turned out in that case that service pack 3 had not been installed. 
So that is one thing to check.

Paul
On 15 Feb 2015 17:26, "Nick Bairstow" mailto:Nick at 
pff.uk.com>> wrote:
Hi, I just re-installed XP Pro on a laptop, updated everything, installed 
Therion and I get the following error.

This application has failed to start because the application configuration is 
incorrect.Reinstalling the application may fix this problem.

I'm running Therion on two other XP machines with no problems.I have looked 
everywhere for an answer with no luck. What have I missed, any ideas.

Thanks,

Nick Bairstow
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[Therion] Additions To Pocket Topo Data

[Nick Bairstow]

Hi, If I bring Pocket Topo data/sketch into Therion with Top Parser and draw up 
the survey and then go back to the cave and add more stuff to the original topo 
file using say the continue here option is it possible to somehow easily 
get/replace the amended topo data into the original .th2 file and retain the 
scrap work already done or do I have to create a new survey. Obviously I can 
amend the .th with a text editor.
I sometimes find myself waiting to draw things up whilst I get time to go back 
to get the last bits of the survey done so everything is in one file and I 
don't have to join it all together.
Sorry if this is a bit of a stupid question but if you don't ask you never find 
out.

Nick Bairstow
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[Therion] Additions To Pocket Topo Data

[Nick Bairstow]

Ok, thanks for all the advice. It makes perfect sense to keep surveys separate 
rather than just adding to an older one. I do find that on some of my first 
surveys I missed detail I needed which is one of the reasons I asked this 
question but as you correctly said Andrew I can import a new xvi file. I didn't 
realise you could do this so once I work out how to position it correctly this 
should work OK. The .th I can do in a text editor. 
So the lesson learnt here is improve my technique/workflow, get a system going 
and stick to it this then should avoid having to do the above.  

Thanks again everybody,

Nick.

-Original Message-
From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf 
Of Andrew Atkinson
Sent: 15 July 2015 09:14
To: therion at speleo.sk
Subject: Re: [Therion] Additions To Pocket Topo Data

Nick

I have written topParser, following what I do, with a little adaptation
for other methods that I know about when people ask me.

I try to strctly follow the one survey trip, one file methodology, so
what you are trying to do is not implemented, and to be truthful it
would be very hard to do, I think.

I would suggest that organising files by surveys trip (A caving trip to
survey 2 parts of a cave counts as 2 trips, as starting a survey and
going back to the same spot) The reason that I do this is although it
looks very verbose at the start, as projects become large it actually
makes data organisation easier. Mixing data can lead to difficulties
latter, the obvious problem is that if the instrument is in different
calibration, or worse out of calibration, this might not be discovered
until later, say when a look is closed, it is easier to find and remove
these sort of things if they are grouped together. There are probably
many ways to do this sort of thing, I find this works for me.
As Bruce said joining is easy, so long as the sketches are not joined on
a junction and when you get further into the power of therion, you will
probably find that more smaller sections with joins is what you want, I
have certainly found myself having to go back and split scraps up to get
to some final outputs.

However, if you really want to amend a drawing, for things like going
back and adding more detail to an existing top file, the th2 can be
generated, this also generates an xvi file which is the underlying
drawing. This can then be imported into your th2 file, either through
the front end or in a text editor. Guess I could add an option only to
generate the xvi files, which should help and is reasonably easy. I will
add it to the todo list.
Amending an existing th file automatically is the sort of thing that
could lead to all sorts of trouble and is way beyond the simplicity of
topParser. I would say that manually doing it is the best option, best
method is probably to generate the new th file and as you say paste over
the relevant bits manually

Andrew

On 14/07/15 21:05, Bruce wrote:
> Nick
> 
> I don't know the answer to your question.  I have always created a new
> .top file for a new day or new survey segment (separated from previous
> survey legs that day).  Hence I am careful not to leave any small or
> isolated bits of passage unsurveyed, to avoid future tiny surveys!
> 
> Joining together is easy, and so it is a strength of the method that
> there is no need to wait until you have finished surveying.  Complete
> your Therion centerline and drawing at the end of each day!
> 
>  
> 
> Bruce
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> *From:*therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-bounces at speleo.sk] *On
> Behalf Of *Nick Bairstow
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 15 July 2015 6:42 a.m.
> *To:* 'List for Therion users'
> *Subject:* [Therion] Additions To Pocket Topo Data
> 
>  
> 
> Hi, If I bring Pocket Topo data/sketch into Therion with Top Parser and
> draw up the survey and then go back to the cave and add more stuff to
> the original topo file using say the continue here option is it possible
> to somehow easily get/replace the amended topo data into the original
> .th2 file and retain the scrap work already done or do I have to create
> a new survey. Obviously I can amend the .th with a text editor.
> 
> I sometimes find myself waiting to draw things up whilst I get time to
> go back to get the last bits of the survey done so everything is in one
> file and I don't have to join it all together.
> 
> Sorry if this is a bit of a stupid question but if you don't ask you
> never find out.
> 
>  
> 
> Nick Bairstow
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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[Therion] Additions To Pocket Topo Data

[Nick Bairstow]

Yes, I found the field in the map editor where you can import xvi files. The 
one I tried did not come in at 0,0 though maybe because I still had the 
original file in the editor as well but as Martin says it's easy to change the 
coordinates here. A bit more experimentation this weekend should sort this. 

Nick.

-Original Message-
From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf 
Of Martin Sluka
Sent: 17 July 2015 06:19
To: List for Therion users
Subject: Re: [Therion] Additions To Pocket Topo Data


> 16. 7. 2015 v 19:33, Andrew Atkinson :
> 
> I think that just replacing the original xvi with the new xvi
> (overwriting) you will find that it is in the same position, if it has
> been generated by topParser, it picks the first station as 0, 0 and that
> should not change if you are just adding more detail. Not actually tried
> it, don't forget backups :-)

Anyway, in right side menu of xterion map editor are fields with coordinates of 
left-bottom corner of particular image. You may edit these coordinates manually 
to place any background image to correct position. 

BTW, there are several such fields in map editor. Check them, they could be 
useful.

m.s.
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[Therion] Projected Elevation Output

[Nick Bairstow]

I am trying to draw a 90 degree elevation. All seems well but the PDF output 
shows the topo survey as shown in the .th2 file background and not the walls 
etc that I have drawn.
I can't find any reference to this problem in the available information or 
archives and after 2 hours have decided to go for beer. I'm obviously missing 
something anyone got any ideas.
The extended elevation works perfectly.

Nick.

[Therion] Projected Elevation Output

[Nick Bairstow]

That fixed it thank you. I changed the export line of the config file to -proj 
[elevation 90]. Fairly obvious when you look at it.

Nick.

From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [therion-bounces at speleo.sk] On Behalf Of 
Bruce [br...@tomo.co.nz]
Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2015 5:13 AM
To: 'List for Therion users'
Subject: Re: [Therion] Projected Elevation Output

Further to Xavier's comment...

All the (relevant) elevation scraps, maps and exports will need to have
-projection [elevation 90]
as part of their definition.
(If you just specify "-projection elevation" then Therion will default to an 
elevation looking 0 deg, or north for that object)

Many versions back I discovered that the direction must be specified exactly 
the same way in each scrap, map and export definition, I presume it is still 
the case.

ie -projection [elevation 90] is not recognised by Therion as the same as
-projection [elevation 090], and so this can be a reason why some scraps or 
maps are dropped from an export.

Bruce

[Therion] KML Issues

[Nick Bairstow]

My "export model -o ##NAME##.kml" exports work fine but "export map -o 
##NAME##.kml" sometimes works perfectly but other times I get small pieces/part 
of a cave missing.
I have checked for walls/pillars with the tick mark the wrong way round and all 
look OK. I notice that other people have had issues with this a while back and 
even noticed that Andrew stopped using kml output. In all cases the compile 
runs with no warnings and the pdf output is fine.
Am I wasting my time, is there a better way to get similar results.
Also on the "model" outputs is there a way to show just centreline and not the 
splays, I see this question has been asked before but I could not see an answer.
I really quite like the kml outputs as you can get the evenings survey into 
Google earth before the first pints half way down whist sat in the pub 
afterwards -not always 100% positioned at this point but it still looks good -

Nick.



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[Therion] KML Issues

[Nick Bairstow]

I will use my worst kml map export and trim it back to just walls to simplify 
it. I will experiment with closing passage ends etc as there are several on 
this map and see what happens. I shall report back.

Nick.



From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf 
Of Bruce
Sent: 27 July 2015 20:39
To: 'List for Therion users'
Subject: Re: [Therion] KML Issues

Nick
Check this wiki entry 
http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/tips#avoiding_invisible_or_misshapen_scraps_in_loch_and_google_earth

Bruce


From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf 
Of Andrew Atkinson
Sent: Tuesday, 28 July 2015 4:46 a.m.
To: Therion
Subject: Re: [Therion] KML Issues


On 27 Jul 2015 5:34 pm, "Nick Bairstow" mailto:Nick at 
pff.uk.com>> wrote:
>

>
> I have checked for walls/pillars with the tick mark the wrong way round and 
> all look OK. I notice that other people have had issues with this a while 
> back and even noticed that Andrew stopped using kml output. In all cases the 
> compile runs with no warnings and the pdf output is fine.
>
I have not stopped, just googlemaps got rid of the easy way to put kml on, by 
embedding the links. They are more fussy than pdf, bug looks like you have 
checked for the right things. Sometimes you need to close the end of a scrap 
with an invisible wall for the algorithm to work, this was a solution to a 
previous email thread I started on loc models, but it seems to apply to kml as 
well. Currently I am away with limited tech so cannot find the thread, 
hopefully someone else  will help you with the rest, otherwise I will in 10days 
or so

Andrew
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[Therion] KML Issues

[Nick Bairstow]

Right, things I found.
Firstly I found a sneaky boulder which had been drawn with a wall line. I now 
know about the search and select function in the map editor this is clearly 
very useful for checking feature types and it will be in regular use from now 
on.
I found a pillar without the -outside in option on.
With these two things corrected the kml output was nearly there I just had a 
few strange shapes to certain bits of the map so next I looked at the open 
passages. I put extra wall lines across the open ends one at a time and this 
sorted the strange shapes but doing this showed that not all open passage ends 
caused a problem some rendered fine with a straight edge between the two wall 
ends. It was obvious which open ends caused problems as these were the origin 
points of the strange additional shapes.
Feeling quite pleased with myself now, just the other 4/5 th2's to sort out to 
get a nice Google earth image of the system so far.

Thanks

Nick.


From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf 
Of Nick Bairstow
Sent: 28 July 2015 11:18
To: 'List for Therion users'
Subject: Re: [Therion] KML Issues

I will use my worst kml map export and trim it back to just walls to simplify 
it. I will experiment with closing passage ends etc as there are several on 
this map and see what happens. I shall report back.

Nick.



From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf 
Of Bruce
Sent: 27 July 2015 20:39
To: 'List for Therion users'
Subject: Re: [Therion] KML Issues

Nick
Check this wiki entry 
http://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/doku.php/tips#avoiding_invisible_or_misshapen_scraps_in_loch_and_google_earth

Bruce


From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf 
Of Andrew Atkinson
Sent: Tuesday, 28 July 2015 4:46 a.m.
To: Therion
Subject: Re: [Therion] KML Issues


On 27 Jul 2015 5:34 pm, "Nick Bairstow" mailto:Nick at 
pff.uk.com>> wrote:
>

>
> I have checked for walls/pillars with the tick mark the wrong way round and 
> all look OK. I notice that other people have had issues with this a while 
> back and even noticed that Andrew stopped using kml output. In all cases the 
> compile runs with no warnings and the pdf output is fine.
>
I have not stopped, just googlemaps got rid of the easy way to put kml on, by 
embedding the links. They are more fussy than pdf, bug looks like you have 
checked for the right things. Sometimes you need to close the end of a scrap 
with an invisible wall for the algorithm to work, this was a solution to a 
previous email thread I started on loc models, but it seems to apply to kml as 
well. Currently I am away with limited tech so cannot find the thread, 
hopefully someone else  will help you with the rest, otherwise I will in 10days 
or so

Andrew
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[Therion] Do people use Toughbooks for mapping

[Nick Bairstow]

I considered one for a while but they are just too big and awkward to handle 
though most caves I frequent. Sketching would be great but unless you are 
mapping a big easy to walk through cave then I don't think a Toughbook would 
last two minutes. Also I'm not sure battery life would be good enough for 
anything other than short sessions.
Dell Axim pda in an Otter box 1900 is the best I have used, the screen is small 
but so far it has been a bomb proof combination. The Otter box is a good choice 
as I can climb with it tucked down the front of my oversuit, the hand strap 
means I never drop it and it really is water proof if you keep it clean. I was 
receiving data from the Disto the other week when the pda was 6" underwater. I 
found that quite exciting in a sad sort of way. The whole set up including the 
Disto and an Olympus TG2 compact fits perfectly into a Peli 1120 case which is 
very easy to transport.
It would be interesting to here from anyone who has tried a Toughbook as they 
can go for not a lot of money on Fleabay. Won't beat £15 for an Axim though 
and I now have enough Axim's and Otter boxes to last me for the rest of my 
active life all for less than £90. Let's hope those Zebedee things don't work 
as that will have been a waste.


From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf 
Of Rob Countess
Sent: 19 October 2015 16:39
To: List for Therion users
Subject: Re: [Therion] Do people use Toughbooks for mapping

My caves are deeper than my pockets

I almost bought one but decided to try a cheaper option first.

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 4:33 AM, rowena mailto:rowena_l 
at tpg.com.au>> wrote:
Hi,

Does anyone use a Panasonic toughbook for caving?  Do you get the DistoX data 
direct uploaded to Therion on a toughbook?
If so how well do they go underground and what other mapping tools do you use 
with it?

Rowena

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[Therion] Data Management (Adam Sampson)

[Nick Bairstow]

Dave has been my personal tutor for the last 2/3 weeks and has got me flying 
along with things. I can not thank him enough for the not inconsiderable time 
and effort he has put in with me. He sorted my file structure and checked and 
corrected lots of my data some of which is available to view using the dropbox 
link. Be warned files have been flying in and out of that dropbox so some of 
the stuffs a bit messy.
I have been giving some thought to producing a tutorial to follow on from 
Footlegs wiki item. Unfortunately it's not a simple as I first thought. Over 
the next few months I will attempt to come up with something that will enable a 
novice therioneer understand the next steps following the Footleg wiki article. 
It would be nice to continue using Bull Pot as the sample cave but I have not 
got time to re-survey that so I propose we use an existing data set which could 
become the default novice reference.
It seems many people give up with Therion as it is difficult to learn but with 
a good tutorial and a little help many more could be using it.
What do people think, am I wasting my time, comments please.
Oh and if someone else is already doing something similar please shout up. No 
point doing it twice.

 Nick.

From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [therion-bounces at speleo.sk] On Behalf Of 
Dave Clucas [dave.clu...@icloud.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2015 7:55 AM
To: therion at speleo.sk
Subject: Re: [Therion] Data Management (Adam Sampson)

I helped Nick with his problen. To see how it's done have a look at the sample 
data we worked on 
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lmpe35x3mhy7kp8/AADED3GW7KpiAFVKR1q-zxEsa?dl=0

Any queries contact me.

Dave Clucas
daveclucas.com
sarawak-caves.com
dave.clucas at icloud.com

Exploring the World - One cave at a time


On 19 Aug 2015, at 12:44, therion-request at speleo.sk wrote:

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: Data Management (Adam Sampson)


--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 08:14:36 -0400
From: Adam Sampson 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Data Management
To: Therion List 
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Please do let us know what you figure out. Martin helped me figure out how to 
have my surveys in a sub-folder of my main survey, but so far I'm only doing 
one cave. Would like to hear how to add the other area caves to the same output.

Adam Sampson(502)509-5066caver.adam at 
outlook.comwww.kentuckykarstconservancy.com

From: n...@pff.uk.com
To: therion at speleo.sk
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2015 10:31:32 +0100
Subject: Re: [Therion] Data Management


















Andrew, Martin, Rowena,

Thanks for the replies. What I clearly don?t
understand are the basic building blocks of Therion, folder structures etc

Dave C has kindly offered to look at my
stuff and advise so hopefully I will sort this out soon.

I suspect I am at a point that a lot of
folk get to in their Therion leaning curve so once I get my head round this I
may write a wiki article about this from a novice point of view. It really 
should
be a continuation of Footlegs excellent tutorial which I have referred to many
times over the last few months.

Andrew, files will be in the registry by
the end of the day I promises.



Thanks once again all



Nick.











From:
therion-bounces at speleo.sk [mailto:therion-bounces at speleo.sk] On Behalf Of 
Martin Sluka

Sent: 19 August 2015 08:38

To: List
for Therion users

Subject: Re: [Therion] Data
Management





Nick,









thbook:







? -d ?
Turn on debugging mode. The current implementation creates a temporary
directory





named thTMPDIR (in
your system temporary directory) and does not delete any





temporary files.













may you run  therion with -d parameter and check the files inside
the folder  thTMPDIR?











May you send me both the log from therion and that folder thTMPDIR
zipped?











m.

























19. 8. 2015 v 5:20, rowena_l at tpg.com.au:











hello,









I have successfully created an area  PDF for the
70+ caves in my area of interest in Australia, using Therion.





Can you give more details of what your result is giving?
eg is an error being displayed, can you produce a .3d file or .lox file of the
survey legs, are you able to see  a pdf created that is missing data?



-

[Therion] Therion tutorial

[Nick Bairstow]

I think Graham is thinking along the same lines as me. A stable data set which 
covers a bit of everything is whats needed but with tutorials to cover the 
different aspects of the build. 
Juan a windows type GUI would be great but if what Martin says is correct the 
Therion is what it is. As a new user I don't have a problem with how it works 
once someone showed me the way. It's quite straight forward and no more 
difficult to learn than the two new cad programs I am currently getting to 
grips with. I will admit the th2 files get a bit confusing at times - how about 
different colours for different line types-  but once you get your work flow 
under control then it's not difficult.
I am an average PC user and all this MetaTex stuff is a mystery. I just copy 
what others have shown me, as time goes on I will learn more but at the moment 
I am producing maps which is all I want. Actually I want a 3d model with a 
surface overlay for our whole system but one step a  time.
The tutorials available, apart from Footlegs, we have found hard to follow and 
to be honest we made little progress following them, sorry.
My reference now is the data that Dave Clucas has helped me with and when I 
show this and explain it to my mates who have more or less given up with 
Therion I am sure they will start using the software again. Yesterday afternoon 
I got Thursday nights data into the main plan all joined to the system in under 
2 hours, 3 weeks ago I did not have a clue how to do that. This is the 
secondary level of knowledge we should aim to cover with this tutorial.
I suspect the biggest issue will be which is the best way to do things, as an 
engineer my mantra is keep it simple, simple, simple as it always works best. 
It can always be made more complex once you understand what you are doing.
Bruce, I believe your comment is correct which is why I want to start this now. 
and you're right I will need help. I might add this is something that I would 
normally avoid getting involved with but I am really starting to get into this 
surveying game and by my reasoning the more people using the software 
especially locally the quicker I will learn more. Selfish interest I'm afraid.
Any Therion novice lurkers out there with anything to say.

Nick.

From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [therion-bounces at speleo.sk] On Behalf Of 
Martin Sluka [martinsl...@mac.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 9:25 AM
To: List for Therion users
Subject: Re: [Therion] Therion tutorial

There is possibility to use right click in map editor which helps much there 
yet.

The data editor is as is, there are several tools you may use to prepare data 
for therion. But to tune up the data structure you need line text format 
anyway. The same for archiving your data. Plain text format is human readable 
and one may interprets it with piece of graph paper, protractor and ruler in 
extreme situation. The same for maps.

The output compilation editor is the same case, there are so many 
possibilities, tricks, modifications of codes etc. it is not possible to use 
any an usable windows-like menus. There is possibility to define default 
layouts and then use these layouts as blocks or inputs without modifications 
there.

Imagine you may to use full potential of very very powerful software tools 
MetaPost for definition of symbols and for workaround with scraps and TeX for 
definition of exported maps and atlases. These programs are behind the Therion.

For error analysis you may use Survex log and for visual identification of 
problem "debug on“ command in layout in compilation.

etc.

But there is not any other tool to archive data from surveys and produce maps 
of complicated in many levels existed cave systems. To make a simple map of a 
simple cave you may in many ways. But to create an usable map of real maze cave 
system there is only one solution.  And because any simple cave may be changed 
to a big maze after an exploration, … :)

The Therion package is free and multi platform!

Maybe you’ll find a programer which will be able to proof I’m not right.

Martin


> 7. 9. 2015 v 8:46, Juan Corrin :
>
> In my opinion - and I'm repeating myself here - people give up because of the 
> unfriendly command line environment. A windows-type interface with radio 
> buttons and drop down menus would be much easier to use and remember. Please 
> can the programmers work at this aspect instead of tweaking the underlying 
> code? I don't think that yet another tutorial will help the majority of 
> potential users.
>
> On 6 Sep 2015 07:18, Graham Mullan  wrote:
>>
>> Nick Bairstow wrote:
>>
>> "I have been giving some thought to producing a tutorial to follow on from
>> Footlegs wiki item. Unfortunately it's not a simple as I first thought. Over
>> the next few months I will attempt to come up wi

[Therion] Therion tutorial

[Nick Bairstow]

Martin, today, yes it is simple. 3 weeks ago no it wasn't, I didn't have a clue 
what you have done there or more importantly why. Also throw in naming 
conventions and file structure then absolutely no chance of getting it correct, 
for me anyway. This is part of what I think needs covering.

Nick. 

From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [therion-bounces at speleo.sk] On Behalf Of 
Martin Sluka [martinsl...@mac.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 11:58 AM
To: List for Therion users
Subject: Re: [Therion] Therion tutorial

6. 9. 2015 v 11:50, Juan Corrin mailto:uzueka at aol.com>>:

It seems daft to me that enthusiastic surveyors are not using the software
because of its complicated front end.


Again:

1. try to imagine format of data for all kinds of surveying technologies 
available, with preserving the original format of data and include all the logs 
and notes around. Try imagine such windows only editor.

2. try to imagine map editor you may use any kind of vector symbol you are able 
to imagine.

3. try to imagine export command to export all the kinds of PDF outputs you may 
imagine, and export all the format therion is able to export.

The problem is not the therion itself, problem is the complexity of 
documentation of caves. If somebody have to make a map of cave for himself and 
for his group, he may use what he want. If he will want to make complex 
documentation of cave and preserve it for feature, independent of computer 
platform, computers as well, … he has only one choice.

One may use therion in very, very simple way, without 99 % of its complexity. 
So maybe much better is to start from this point.

Use simple

file 123.th:

survey 123

  input 123.th2

  centerline
  ….
  encenterline

  map 123.map
  ….
  endmap
ensurvey

file 123.th2:

small simple scraps in map editor.

In compiler part use simple:

source 123.th
select 123.map

export map
export model

Enough simple for newbies, isn’t it.

Martin

[Therion] Can't Open Cavern Log File For Input

[Nick Bairstow]

I have one Win 7 PC which gives me the above warning on compile.
I have survex installed. Same data on portable drive woks fine on all other 
machines.
Any pointers would be appreciated. 

Thanks.

[Therion] Can't Open Cavern Log File For Input

[Nick Bairstow]

Hi Jenny thanks for the reply, I have already tried updating to the latest 
version as I was still on 1.2.11. I will try going back to 20 and see what 
happens.
Footleg, you may have something with the permissions theory. Running as admin 
but something does not look right. I will get advice from bloke at work on 
Monday as I always seem to cock permissions up when changing.

Thanks.

From: therion-bounces at speleo.sk [therion-bounces at speleo.sk] On Behalf Of 
Jenny Black [jenel...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 10:22 PM
To: List for Therion users
Subject: Re: [Therion] Can't Open Cavern Log File For Input

Hi Nick,

Are your different machines running the same version of survex? I get
that error too, but only when I am running the latest version of
survex (1.2.23), if I go back to 1.2.20 then therion works fine. (This
is also on windows 7).

Thanks,
Jenny
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Re: [Therion] Making projected elevations

[Nick Bairstow]

There is another option with regards to producing projected elevations.

By using PocketTopo and then using Andrew Atkinsons Topparser to create the 
directories and files needed for your Therion project, as well as the extended 
elevation files you have the option of producing a projected elevation .th2 
along with a projected xvi which shows all your splays and not just the 
centreline. The splays can sometimes be difficult to interpret as with 
PocketTopo you have no option to sketch a projected elevation whilst surveying 
but I find this much easier/quicker than the method Bruce suggested.

As with a lot of things a bit of forward planning with how you survey your cave 
(if that is possible) can make a big difference to how difficult this process 
is.

Can I say you two (Tarquin and Bruce) make a quite good team. Tarquin you are 
asking some good questions for a new user and Bruce as always you have answers 
normal people can understand.

Nick

-Original Message-
From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bruce Mutton
Sent: 26 April 2019 07:18
To: 'List for Therion users' 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Making projected elevations

Hi Tarquin
Probably better to create a new post for each topic.  Makes for smaller bites 
and easier to respond to.

Basically, there is no conversion of sketches from one projection to another.  
You have to do the work yourself or accept any distortions that a fudge might 
incur.
Have a search on the mail archive for 'projected elevation'. In essence I think 
you have come to the right conclusions below.
https://www.mail-archive.com/therion@speleo.sk/
Check out https://www.mail-archive.com/therion@speleo.sk/msg06370.html and 
https://www.mail-archive.com/therion@speleo.sk/msg06368.html

I started my Therion life as a projected elevation fan, but now I think 
extended is the way to go (subject to the proviso that they are way more 
vexatious for a non-trivial cave).
Your description of the cave/mine makes it sound perfect for an extended 
elevation to me, especially as you already have extended sketches.

Multiple projections on the same pdf page can only be achieved using map-image 
to insert them as images.  Or you could post-process with another application 
(which defeats a key advantage of Therion).
You could take your extended sketches and just flag them as projected, 
accepting that there may be gross distortions.
You could forget about the xvi file, and print out a projected centreline (one 
trip file at a time is my preference), and sketch on that the passage detail, 
scan it, and import it as a background image in XTherion.  Then you trace it 
with XTherion to produce scraps.  Seems odd to take an electronic process, and 
force a pencil and paper stage to it, but that is my preference if the 
alternative is to have an xvi with no sketches embedded.

Bruce

-Original Message-
From: Therion  On Behalf Of Tarquin Wilton-Jones via 
Therion
Sent: Thursday, 25 April 2019 09:56
To: therion@speleo.sk
Cc: Tarquin Wilton-Jones 
Subject: [Therion] Making projected elevations, and using map connectors

Hi,

Still learning (never stop)...

I have looked through the various tutorials, and several examples, but I have 
not found any information on how to create a projected elevation - all 
tutorials stop at that point with "TODO: show how to do elevations".
The software I am using to survey the caves (DistoX2 + SexyTopo) gives me a 
plan view and an extended elevation, exported as centreline+xvi.
The area I am surveying is mostly linear with passages stacked at various 
levels above each other. As a result, projected elevation is more useful than 
extended elevation.

I know I have to use "-projection [elevation 265]" on my scraps and maps to 
make them all work when I try to use:
export map -projection [elevation 265]

However, I have not been able to find how to get from an extended elevation to 
a projected elevation. I had hoped for some magic where I just create an 
extended elevation then ask Therion to warp that extended elevation into a 
projected elevation, but I have come to the conclusion that I probably have to 
do this:

export map -projection [elevation 265] -output elevation265.xvi

Then create a dedicated surveyname_elevation265.th2 file and go over all the 
survey data and create the required scraps for it, without being able to see 
the sketches in the XTherion scrap editor.

Have I made the right assumption, or is there some clever magic that can 
happen? Does this mean that in order to create two elevations, one facing 265° 
and one facing 180°, I actually have to do this all twice, creating each scrap 
from scratch each time?

Imagine I want to have half of the cave on a bearing of 265 and the other half 
on a bearing of 180 in the same file (because the cave turns a corner half way 
along) - essentially extending a projected elevation.
I could export the data once on a bearing of 265, and once on a bearing of 180, 
then create app

[Therion] Using 3d Scan Data To Create A Map

[Nick Bairstow]

Hi, Something a bit different for the clever people out there.

I have been playing with some 3d scan data and have attempted to use it to 
create a Therion map.
Firstly we put created an outline of the cave passage using point cloud 
software and exported as dxf.
I turned the dxf into a background sketch and drew around it and could output a 
nice pdf of our cave. Also did a manual scaling. So far so good.

I added a dummy station and gave it entrance coordinates, then exported as a 
KML model. When I open the output file Google Earth fly's to the correct spot 
and shows a pin with the cave name but no cave.
My question is , does this fail because we have no survey data, centreline etc 
and it is impossible to do this or am I missing something.

As an alternative I can export to an esri shp file and run that though Qgis and 
get what I want but as I am going to attempt to combine the 3 scan data with a 
several normal disto surveys I would like to see Therion Kml output work if 
possible to save lots of messing around. (GIS makes my head hurt)

On a side note using the point cloud software I can slice though the scan data 
on different planes and pick up lots of detail, rocks and boulders etc. Using 
the dxf/background image method I should be able to get a very accurate 
representation of the passage. I can hear you all saying what the hell is he 
doing that for when he could just survey the cave in the normal way! Well the 
cave is a show cave and absolutely rammed with metal walkways and cables. Disto 
tests showed wild inaccuracy's so it was looking like the only viable option 
was going to be to use a Total Station device which we don't have.  We then had 
a very kind offer to scan the cave, this has proved to be very interesting but 
drawing a normal map is a bit of a challenge although it seems not impossible.

Any help would be appreciated.

Nick

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Re: [Therion] Using 3d Scan Data To Create A Map

[Nick Bairstow]

Thanks for all the info Kevin.

I think I follow and understand your workflow.

I have been using CloudCompare and MeshLab, however the best results have come 
from very expensive LiDAR instrument manufactures software and other 3rd party 
paid for software. Bit out of my budget I'm afraid. To a great extent this may 
be me not knowing how to use the open source software correctly so as ever it's 
work in progress.

Surface scan using a drone next, can't wait!

Has anybody got an answer to the Therion KML model output question, what 
information does Therion need to create this? It seems to me that just having 
cave walls drawn is not enough even though I can get good pdf output.

Nick

-Original Message-
From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of kevin dixon
Sent: 20 June 2019 11:44
To: List for Therion users 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Using 3d Scan Data To Create A Map

Those with their own LiDAR instrument will usually have access to their LiDAR 
manufacturer Software and this often includes automated rendering of man-made 
surfaces - results quality depend a lot on the LiDAR resolution and accuracy. 
Natural surfaces such as caves are more difficult for Point Cloud software to 
deal with automatically.

For the rest of us, you may wish to consider the following open source software 
for Point Clouds:
MeshLab - lots of functionality, poor interface, I used this a decade ago when 
there were few open source options CloudCompare - nice interface, I have not 
used it for a while ParaView - uses PCL (Point Cloud Library), PCL can be used 
direct depending on your coding ability PDAL - a library of point cloud tools, 
need to use something like QGIS for results visualisation Blender - more for 3D 
videographics 3DTK - 3D Toolkit, not familiar with

Other options are available.

Kevin Dixon

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 9:36 AM Martin Sluka via Therion  
wrote:
>
> Isn’t it as call for nuclear aircraft carrier to kill a fly?
>
> Martin
>
> Odesláno z iPhonu
>
> 20. 6. 2019 v 9:33, Pavel Herich :
>
> > This software should do it:
> > https://geoslam.com/hub/
> > P.
> >
> >
> > Dňa 2019-06-20 09:26 Martin Sluka via Therion napísal(a):
> >> I’m curios if there is a software able to create  vector map 
> >> outline from cloud data automatically.
> >> Martin
> >> Odesláno z iPhonu
> >> 19. 6. 2019 v 23:13, kevin dixon :
> >>> Nick,
> >>> I have both DistoX2 and LiDAR data for parts of the same cave.
> >>> All the LiDAR scans were registered to create a single model as 
> >>> normal for LiDAR.
> >>> The individual scans were then decimated in the Point Cloud 
> >>> Software using a suitable distance to nearest neighbour. I found 
> >>> Survex gets a bit overwhelmed with millions of LiDAR data so you 
> >>> may have to experiment with a suitable distance between adjacent 
> >>> LiDAR data. Each decimated individual scan was then output to 
> >>> LibreOffice Calc and new ranges, bearings and inclinations 
> >>> calculated to create single station Survex files with lots of splays, now 
> >>> all orientated the same way.
> >>> Dummy traverse observations were created within Survex to link all 
> >>> the LiDAR scan stations based upon the Point Cloud registration 
> >>> coordinates and elevations of the scan stations.
> >>> I then manually matched the Survex output of the above LiDAR data 
> >>> to some known DistoX2 observations or in your case, perhaps known 
> >>> show cave outline. You can do this within Survex by having your 
> >>> non-LiDAR data as another survey then using a Calibrate Compass 
> >>> figure (may require up to +/-180degrees) within the LiDAR Survex 
> >>> data to change the orientation so as to match the known and also 
> >>> setting one of the LiDAR stations within the Dummy traverse 
> >>> observations to coordinates and elevation that give a good fit 
> >>> with the known data. Several iterations are needed with these.
> >>> Hope that is self explanatory.
> >>> Has worked for me - I have a DistoX2 Survex model with very 
> >>> detailed LiDAR data in two large chambers - the resulting LOG file 
> >>> looks a bit weird eg.
> >>>1 8659-node.
> >>>1 19071-node.
> >>>1 21844-node.
> >>>1 22774-node.
> >>>1 23053-node.
> >>>1 24470-node.
> >>>1 25278-node.
> >>> As a side note, part of my project includes a Show Cave and I have 
> >>> not had a problem with insitu metalwork there or on scaff

Re: [Therion] XtTherion canvas zoom with the mouse wheel bug

[Nick Bairstow]

5.4.4 seems to have cured this very annoying issue (so hard not to scroll) but 
now with this latest release any scrolling is so ridiculously slow on my 
Windows machine, I'm going back to 5.4.1 which scrolled fine. I will dig out a 
none scroll wheel mouse for the few times I have to use a scanned image.

Nick

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Re: [Therion] XtTherion canvas zoom with the mouse wheel bug

[Nick Bairstow]

Right a bit more information.
Having installed 5.4.4 last night on a Windows machine I noticed that canvas 
scrolling did not work as it had done using 5.4.1. I thought it was really slow 
but on further investigation it seems that the zooming only happens after 
scrolling the mouse wheel quite vigorously 3 times in quick succession.  This 
works for zooming in and out and is consistently repeatable although it does 
seem to confuse itself occasionally. The scrolling has to be done in quick 
succession or zooming does not occur they also have to be big scrolls.
Ctrl + zoom is the same.
I find scroll zoom very useful and it would be good to have it sorted in 5.4.4 
but I am afraid that is a bit beyond my meagre talents, sorry.

Nick

From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bruce Mutton
Sent: 17 July 2019 09:27
To: 'List for Therion users' 
Subject: Re: [Therion] XtTherion canvas zoom with the mouse wheel bug

I think this feature was implemented mid-2017, and it was about then that I 
raised the issue<https://www.mail-archive.com/therion@speleo.sk/msg06518.html> 
of a bug with canvas zooming and bitmap background images.
There were a couple of 
commits<https://github.com/therion/therion/search?q=zoom&type=Commits> to 
resolve this 25 June 2018, and the effect for me since then has been is that 
mouse wheel zooming has been non-existent (although the code edits suggest 
something should happen on wheel rotation).
So I am intrigued that you say it is working, even if very slowly.  I seem to 
recall that the functionality was;

Ctrl+mouse-wheel to zoom in and out the XTherion canvas.

Currently version 5.4.4+bd62e22 does not respond at all to this control (and it 
does it quickly ie no hint that a redraw is being attempted or that there is an 
error condition).  Same behaviour for all versions (on Windows 10) since 25 
June 2018.  So what am I missing? How does one activate the mouse wheel 
scrolling?  It is a nice feature (so long as its not too slow as Nick has 
experienced).

Bruce

From: Therion mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk>> On 
Behalf Of Nick Bairstow
Sent: Wednesday, 17 July 2019 07:54
To: therion@speleo.sk<mailto:therion@speleo.sk>
Subject: Re: [Therion] XtTherion canvas zoom with the mouse wheel bug

5.4.4 seems to have cured this very annoying issue (so hard not to scroll) but 
now with this latest release any scrolling is so ridiculously slow on my 
Windows machine, I'm going back to 5.4.1 which scrolled fine. I will dig out a 
none scroll wheel mouse for the few times I have to use a scanned image.

Nick

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Re: [Therion] Horrific Warping between maps where I want my lines to join

[Nick Bairstow]

>… don't join in the middle of a chamber...

I think I said avoid joining in the middle of a chamber as quite often chambers 
are where you might actually want to use an area fill and I think it is 
generally accepted that these make joins more difficult. A chamber is usually 
just a big passage with two walls after all.
If there are side passages going off a chamber then its just the same 
principle, get the end close with a small gap, avoid overlaps and it usually 
works.
I agree with Bruce that joins can with care be usually be considered automatic 
if fact I can’t remember the last time I used two named line points for a 
normal passage join. Having two screens helps enormously when getting wall ends 
close together in different .th2 files.
As with a lot of things Therion I used to struggle with joins but once I sorted 
my methodology a problem in this area now is an uncommon event.

>The only restriction I have found is that there should not be two wide 
>>openings opposite each other in the same scrap.  In this scenario the >scrap 
>is ‘broken in half’ and while you will get a nice pdf output, the kml >plan 
>will not plot properly (unless this feature has been fixed recently).

I used to suffer a lot with broken kml outputs, as Bruce says gaps in walls can 
cause this. I never leave just a gap in a wall, if it is a side passage I put a 
station shot up it (different number sequence) and then get back to the main 
passage. In Therion I then draw some walls to the station and always put a wall 
line across the end, usually -option invisible. The side passage will not then 
upset the kml output. I find that with the kml output some open passages will 
work and some will not, not sure why but if you stick a line wall across the 
end then they all work.

Nick


From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bruce Mutton
Sent: 31 October 2019 19:07
To: 'List for Therion users' 
Subject: [Therion] Horrific Warping between maps where I want my lines to join

>… don't join in the middle of a chamber...

Yes, an interesting thread.  As Martin rightly says, joining should not be 
considered fully automatic, but with care it usually can be, with some 
provisos.  
https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/tips?s[]=join#joining_scraps_together

Joining in the middle of chambers or passages IS perfectly OK, indeed it is 
necessary every time there is a passage intersection.  You just need to ensure 
that each affected passage has a gap in the wall to accept the join!
The only restriction I have found is that there should not be two wide openings 
opposite each other in the same scrap.  In this scenario the scrap is ‘broken 
in half’ and while you will get a nice pdf output, the kml plan will not plot 
properly (unless this feature has been fixed recently).

In Alistair’s example, the pair of green circles indicate a passage opening 
that can be joined.
The pair of brown circles show a passage opening on one side and no 
corresponding opening on the other.
Hence Therion found the nearest opening it could in the scraps it was 
instructed to join, and in this particular case was trying to join the three 
nearest openings together.  I predict that an acceptable result would be 
obtained if a gap were to be opened near the brown circles.

Bruce

[cid:image001.png@01D5909C.476D48E0]
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Re: [Therion] kml export is not working

[Nick Bairstow]

I am using 5.4.4 as well but on Win 10
I use:
export model -o Output/PathToYourCave.kml

This works fine for me. Adding -fmt kml to the line also works. To be honest I 
am struggling to break it unless I do something very wrong. Do you get a 
warning when compiling? It is strange that you get an output but it seems to 
contains nothing. I have spent a short while attempting to mirror that with 
some of my data that but have failed.
Do you get the same result with export map -fmt kml?
Without seeing all your data all we can do is to try and break ours which is 
perhaps not the best way to find an answer.
Hopefully someone will have seen this behaviour before and know what is wrong.
I will try again later.

Nick


From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Torsten Schnitter 
via Therion
Sent: 02 December 2019 13:35
To: therion@speleo.sk
Cc: Torsten Schnitter 
Subject: [Therion] kml export is not working


Hello

I have some problems with exporting a kml file and I wonder what I'm doing 
wrong.
I'm using Therion 5.4.4 (2019-05-01) on Windows 7.
Aim is to just get the survey lines from a part of the cave system into a kml 
file.

In the thconfig file I select several lines with the "select command".
(I used to do this with double click on the data structure on the right side 
from the compiler window)

Generating a pdf file with:
export map -fmt pdf -proj plan -o 
_Output\Reseau_de_lOuysse_southpassage_2019.pdf -layout layout_plan
is doing exactly what I want to have.
The result is just the survey data from a part of the complete cave system.

But exporting a kml file with the same selected lines fails:
export model -fmt kml -o _Output\Reseau_de_lOuysse_southpassage_2019.kml
This file does not have any survey data in it.

Both files are attached.
Does anybody have any idea what I'm doing wrong?

regards,
Torsten
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Re: [Therion] kml export is not working

[Nick Bairstow]

Just got there before me John. You are correct no coords but there is not much 
else either. I can edit the kml and insert coords name and icon and the file 
opens as expected but no centreline/splays or map outline in the case of model 
output. Also, if you try to compile Therion and ask for kml output and there 
are no coords in the .th then it fails with a warning.
I think there is something else going on and we need to see all the data.

From: Therion  On Behalf Of John Stevens
Sent: 02 December 2019 21:38
To: therion@speleo.sk
Subject: Re: [Therion] kml export is not working

Looking at the kml file, I don't see the geo referenced points. By taking just 
part of the system, have you cut out a fixed point for the kml. This is a 
problem I have found when doing part of a system.



From: Torsten Schnitter via Therion
Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 1:35 PM
To: therion@speleo.sk
Cc: Torsten Schnitter
Subject: [Therion] kml export is not working


Hello

I have some problems with exporting a kml file and I wonder what I'm doing 
wrong.
I'm using Therion 5.4.4 (2019-05-01) on Windows 7.
Aim is to just get the survey lines from a part of the cave system into a kml 
file.

In the thconfig file I select several lines with the "select command".
(I used to do this with double click on the data structure on the right side 
from the compiler window)

Generating a pdf file with:
export map -fmt pdf -proj plan -o 
_Output\Reseau_de_lOuysse_southpassage_2019.pdf -layout layout_plan
is doing exactly what I want to have.
The result is just the survey data from a part of the complete cave system.

But exporting a kml file with the same selected lines fails:
export model -fmt kml -o _Output\Reseau_de_lOuysse_southpassage_2019.kml
This file does not have any survey data in it.

Both files are attached.
Does anybody have any idea what I'm doing wrong?

regards,
Torsten


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Re: [Therion] kml export is not working

[Nick Bairstow]

>As far as I know you only need a geo reference within your survey network.
>But you don't need to have a geo reference within your selected data for 
>output.
>Am I wrong with that?
You are correct, as long as you input the georeferenced survey in the top level 
directory you can toggle any output on and off with select in the survey 
structure.

I had a quick look at your files and struggled a bit with the structure, I will 
try and work it out tonight.

From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Torsten Schnitter 
via Therion
Sent: 03 December 2019 07:41
To: List for Therion users 
Cc: Torsten Schnitter 
Subject: Re: [Therion] kml export is not working


Hello

I have stripped down all the data to the minimum.
You can find all attached in the zip file.

As far as I know you only need a geo reference within your survey network.
But you don't need to have a geo reference within your selected data for output.
Am I wrong with that?

Anyhow.
If you have a look at the "thconfig-survey.thc" file you can find some "DOES 
NOT WORK" and "DOES WORK" statements.
Beside this when not selecting anything it also does work with the kml export.
What also does NOT work is selecting all lines (wihat should be the same as 
selecting nothing).

When I do select the map "survey_southpassage_plan_m" it does work.
This map does have the same lines like the first part in the 
thconfig-survey.thc file which is not working.

May be there is something wrong in the select command?

regards,
Torsten
Nick Bairstow mailto:n...@pff.uk.com>> hat am 2. Dezember 2019 
um 23:19 geschrieben:

Just got there before me John. You are correct no coords but there is not much 
else either. I can edit the kml and insert coords name and icon and the file 
opens as expected but no centreline/splays or map outline in the case of model 
output. Also, if you try to compile Therion and ask for kml output and there 
are no coords in the .th then it fails with a warning.

I think there is something else going on and we need to see all the data.



From: Therion mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk>> On 
Behalf Of John Stevens
Sent: 02 December 2019 21:38
To: therion@speleo.sk<mailto:therion@speleo.sk>
Subject: Re: [Therion] kml export is not working



Looking at the kml file, I don't see the geo referenced points. By taking just 
part of the system, have you cut out a fixed point for the kml. This is a 
problem I have found when doing part of a system.







From: Torsten Schnitter via Therion

Sent: Monday, December 2, 2019 1:35 PM

To: therion@speleo.sk<mailto:therion@speleo.sk>

Cc: Torsten Schnitter

Subject: [Therion] kml export is not working



Hello

I have some problems with exporting a kml file and I wonder what I'm doing 
wrong.
I'm using Therion 5.4.4 (2019-05-01) on Windows 7.
Aim is to just get the survey lines from a part of the cave system into a kml 
file.

In the thconfig file I select several lines with the "select command".
(I used to do this with double click on the data structure on the right side 
from the compiler window)

Generating a pdf file with:
export map -fmt pdf -proj plan -o 
_Output\Reseau_de_lOuysse_southpassage_2019.pdf -layout layout_plan
is doing exactly what I want to have.
The result is just the survey data from a part of the complete cave system.

But exporting a kml file with the same selected lines fails:
export model -fmt kml -o _Output\Reseau_de_lOuysse_southpassage_2019.kml
This file does not have any survey data in it.

Both files are attached.
Does anybody have any idea what I'm doing wrong?

regards,
Torsten



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Re: [Therion] Help with an error

[Nick Bairstow]

I get the same as Martin. I thought it may break the kml map output but that is 
fine as well -with my coords-

I do have a warning but I always this on this particular Win 10 machine. It's a 
windows thing I think, I just ignore it.

warning -- can't open cavern log file for input

Also, I found this:

https://www.mail-archive.com/therion@speleo.sk/msg02736.html

Nick


-Original Message-
From: Therion  On Behalf Of Martin Sluka via Therion
Sent: 09 December 2019 18:33
To: List for Therion users 
Cc: Martin Sluka 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Help with an error

Not any problem. 

Therion from December 6th.

Martin

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Re: [Therion] Pocket Topo on windows 10?

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

Runs fine for me as well on Win 10 Pro 64bit. Don’t think I made any 
adjustments either.
I have had .net issues in the past and ended up uninstalling all versions and 
the carefully installing each version in order and that did it for me. Do not 
just install the latest version.

Slightly off thread
If you using a PDA or other device to survey with then you don’t actually need 
Pocket Topo on your pc, it's nice to have but not strictly necessary.
You can then save your .top file on to an SD card then get it into your pc with 
a card reader or whatever which means you do not have to use the very clunky 
Windows mobile. After that use Top Parser to create all your Therion files. If 
you are not aware of this method try it's by far the easiest and quickest way 
of getting your Topo data into Therion. Try it once and you won't go back to 
the manual way I can assure you.

https://bitbucket.org/AndrewA/topparser/downloads/

As a side issue if you are using your Disto X and sketching on paper you run 
the real risk of including any Disto errors in the data you eventually download 
and you may never notice. Sketching on a PDA shows errors straight away and you 
can correct on site. I learnt this the hard way.

I apologise if you already know all this but these mails being searchable are 
very useful to others over time.

Nick.

-Original Message-
From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bruce Mutton via 
Therion
Sent: 11 April 2017 20:59
To: 'List for Therion users' 
Cc: Bruce Mutton 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Pocket Topo on windows 10?

Hi Xavier
PocketTopo runs fine for me on Windows 10 Home.
Don't think I had to make any adjustments to either product.
Bruce

-Original Message-
From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Xavier Pennec via 
Therion
Sent: Wednesday, 12 April 2017 7:35 AM
To: therion@speleo.sk
Cc: Xavier Pennec 
Subject: [Therion] Pocket Topo on windows 10?

Is anyone able to run pocket on Windows10?
I am currenty unable to install .Net framework 3.5 required to run it (on win10 
professonial).
I need to download data from a distoX2 to feed my therion files but I am 
currently blocked without pocket topo.
Any idea or insight?

Thanks

Xavier

-- 
> -
> Xavier Pennec
> Senior Research Scientist / Directeur de recherche Asclepios 
> project-team, INRIA Sophia-Antipolis
> 2004 Route des Lucioles, BP93
> F-06902 Sophia-Antipolis Cedex, France
> +33 4 92 38 76 64
> +33 6 78 35 16 90
> http://www-sop.inria.fr/asclepios/
> ---

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Re: [Therion] CaveView a 3D web viewer

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

I agree this looks very good but as Bruce points out the instructions look a 
little daunting for the less enlightened amongst us. I include myself in that 
group so any help would be appreciated.

Nick

From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bruce Mutton via 
Therion
Sent: 27 July 2017 11:01
To: 'List for Therion users' 
Cc: Bruce Mutton 
Subject: Re: [Therion] CaveView a 3D web viewer

I suppose you are referring to this
https://aardgoose.github.io/CaveView.js/

The video looks promising.
Is there an easy way to make it run for those of us who can't make sense of the 
instructions provided?
Bruce

From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Henry.Bennett--- 
via Therion
Sent: Thursday, 27 July 2017 9:09 PM
To: therion@speleo.sk
Cc: henry.benn...@dell.com
Subject: [Therion] CaveView a 3D web viewer

Very nice web viewing tool for Therion.  Top marks to aardgoose!

We should put this on the Wiki.

Cheers,

Henry

Dell Corporation Limited is registered in England and Wales. Company 
Registration Number: 2081369
Registered address: Dell House, The Boulevard, Cain Road, Bracknell, Berkshire, 
RG12 1LF, UK.
Company details for other Dell UK entities can be found on  
www.dell.co.uk.
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Re: [Therion] CaveView a 3D web viewer

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

Looks like it needs the following:
rollup, which is currently in experimental.
three.js (already in since stable) (however it wants r85 and debian has 73 or 
80 - this may or may not actually matter) proj4js (already in since stable)

So none of that looks too bad, although the rollup piece could be a pain in 
practice.

Wookey



What did Wookey just say!
If you had written that paragraph in Swahili I might have understood it a 
little better.

Joking aside thanks for taking a look at this it does look like it could be a 
useful tool.

Nick.

-Original Message-
From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Wookey via Therion
Sent: 27 July 2017 17:22
To: therion@speleo.sk
Cc: Wookey 
Subject: Re: [Therion] CaveView a 3D web viewer

On 2017-07-27 08:40 -0500, Bill Gee via Therion wrote:
> CaveView requires installation to a running Web server and manual 
> editing of HTML files.  It is not a stand-alone application.


But it could be packaged as one, available to run on your local webserver. Not 
sure how useful that is in practice.
 
> Second, the archive files I looked at seem to be incomplete.  I 
> downloaded the source code but could not find any file called CaveView.js.

> I also tried cloning the git repository with this command:
> 
>   git clone https://github.com/aardgoose/CaveView.js.git
> 
> Good grief, it downloaded over 260 megabytes!  Even that did not have 
> a CaveView.js file.

Heh, hooray for 'the modern way'? There is a CV.js which I presume is the 
top-level file. (and there are two worker threads which need to run too). 
CaveView.js is the application name - there isn't actually a file called that, 
just a directory.

This does look nice and shiny. I'll take at look at what's involved in 
packaging it for use as a local app then people don't need to worry about all 
those setup instructions. I've not fiddled with any node stuff before, but 
expect it to be somewhat painful, from what I've heard about the node ecosystem 
:-)

Looks like it needs the following:
rollup, which is currently in experimental.
three.js (already in since stable) (however it wants r85 and debian has 73 or 
80 - this may or may not actually matter) proj4js (already in since stable)

So none of that looks too bad, although the rollup piece could be a pain in 
practice.

Wookey
--
Principal hats:  Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM http://wookware.org/
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[Therion] Line Colours in Map Editor with 5.4.1

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

That's better when using Pocket Topo.

Thanks Footleg






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[Therion] Disto Data Recovery

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

Does anyone know if it possible to force a Disto to resend data from its 
memory. Obviously I can manually record it but that is time consuming and prone 
to errors so if you could get the data re-sent then that would be preferable.

Nick Bairstow



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Re: [Therion] Therion crashes in shapes.h when generating 3D

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

Michael, I looked at this before seeing the reply from Bruce but I came to 
similar conclusions as him.
Can I ask what you are trying to do with this as it seems to me you are 
attempting something that should be relatively straight forward but making it 
very complicated but without knowing your intent we can not see the full 
picture.
It is interesting though as I never knew a th2 file like that would process.
Tell us more.

Nick

-Original Message-
From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bruce Mutton via 
Therion
Sent: 26 November 2017 20:34
To: 'List for Therion users' 
Cc: Bruce Mutton 
Subject: [Therion] Therion crashes in shapes.h when generating 3D

Michael
After some cosmetic changes to your thconfig I managed to compile.  I also 
added some georeferencing so I could export kml files.
As per the attached pdf, It looks like your scrap interiors are properly 
defined, except for the three armed passage near the top left.

I have not found it written down, but my assumption is that each scrap should 
be a single contiguous piece of passage.  My experience is that 'export map' 
does not produce properly rendered kml files unless you stick to this 'rule'.
The SA9.th2 file you supplied looks like it should be 9 scraps (including the 
cross-section), one for each contiguous section of passage drawn. 
The attached model kml looks fine I think, but as expected the map kml has not 
been able to render.
Refer to
https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/tips#avoiding_invisible_or_misshapen_scraps_i
n_loch_and_google_earth

When I tried your export model to lox I get the same Windows error that you 
reported.
With such a chaotic scrap, I would expect unpredictable things to happen.
The lox file generator is trying to use the scrap outlines to determine the 
model shape, and so I would suggest that if the kml map is having difficulty, 
then a model trying to inherit scrap outlines is likely to have even more 
trouble.

I would suggest either making each distinct piece of drawing a separate scrap, 
or drawing your scrap progressively from a single starting point, if you want 
to create models that are not purely centreline based.

In the attached config file, if you comment out the export model lox line, the 
attached project files compile without error (provided you create an output 
folder first).

If there is a Therion development task here, then it would be to detect these 
anomalies at the 'export map kml' and 'export model-using-outlines'
stage and exit gracefully by reporting a warning in the first case, and an 
error in the second case.

Bruce


-Original Message-
From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Michael via 
Therion
Sent: Monday, 27 November 2017 12:42 AM
To: therion@speleo.sk
Cc: Michael 
Subject: [Therion] WG: Therion crashes in shapes.h when generating 3D

Hello,
After tedious search through 100s of Scraps I have now isolated the one
(SA9.th2) scrap which crashes Therion in 
extern/poly2tri/sweep/../common/shapes.h
It's attached together with an excerpt of the survey data.
Admittingly, the walls are not drawn very well, but after fixing and completing 
the walls (not done in attached sample) it still crashes Therion.
May this example be a test case for developers to improve Therion's robustness.
BTW, it also crashes older Therion releases.

Cheers,
Michael.

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Michael [mailto:knollesim...@t-online.de]
Gesendet: Samstag, 4. November 2017 14:48
An: 'List for Therion users' 
Betreff: Therion crashes in shapes.h when generating 3D

Hello,
Seeking advice from Therion developers how to track down the cause of attached 
crash report, and apply possible workaround.
Only happens when generating 3D of any format.
Producing plans (pdf, kml) works.
I'm running Therion 5.4.1 on Windows 7.
The crash seems unrelated to the last scrap processed before the crash, because 
when I exclude that scrap, it crashes after approx.
the same time with a different one.

Any help appreciated,
Michael.
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[Therion] Error When Adding A new Cave to Master Index

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

I have just added a small cave to my main index .th. Everything compiles but 
the pdf shows the new cave as shots and splays not as the normal walls etc you 
would expect in a map. All other caves display correctly as intended.
Has anyone point out what I am doing wrong.

Nick

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Re: [Therion] Error When Adding A new Cave to Master Index

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

OK as is normally the case with these things I spotted the error within five 
minutes of asking for help, but it has raised a another question.
My problem was quite simply I had no survey/end survey wrapper. I have been 
using this index file for over two years and never noticed however it has 
worked perfectly and produced what I needed.

I now ask why did the index.th compile OK with the other 18 surveys listed in 
it.

The only difference between the first 18 surveys and the last non-working one 
was that in each scrap of the 18 previous surveys I used the option 
-station-names "" "@surveyname". I was shown this when I started learning 
Therion but never really new why. When using this option to make any survey.th 
compile I have to make sure the map/endmap is outside the survey/endsurvey 
wrapper.

With the my latest survey file I did not use the scrap option and just went 
with the "normal way" with everything in survey.th within the survey/endsurvey 
and then the index .th failed due to having no survey/endsurvey wrapper.
Clearly I do not yet fully understand the process even though I can make things 
work, so lots more reading I think. Does anyone know of a good explanation 
somewhere, most thing I read I find a little confusing.

Also if someone would like to explain the
-station-names "" "@surveyname" bit I would be very grateful.

I suspect I'm not the only one to have struggled with this.

Thanks for the previous answers guys.


Nick

From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bruce Mutton via 
Therion
Sent: 01 March 2018 19:23
To: 'List for Therion users' 
Cc: Bruce Mutton 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Error When Adding A new Cave to Master Index

Nick
I'm guessing you have created a map that contains the survey only for your new 
cave, and a map which contains scraps or maps for your other caves.
I do this intentionally while I am drawing up a new  piece of passage, then 
remove the survey map once I am finished.
Bruce

From: Therion mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk>> On 
Behalf Of Nick Bairstow via Therion
Sent: Friday, 2 March 2018 7:38 AM
To: List for Therion users mailto:therion@speleo.sk>>
Cc: Nick Bairstow mailto:n...@pff.uk.com>>
Subject: [Therion] Error When Adding A new Cave to Master Index

I have just added a small cave to my main index .th. Everything compiles but 
the pdf shows the new cave as shots and splays not as the normal walls etc you 
would expect in a map. All other caves display correctly as intended.
Has anyone point out what I am doing wrong.

Nick

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Re: [Therion] Error When Adding A new Cave to Master Index

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

Martin, thank you for explaining that clearly, it seems I may have been over 
complicating things.

It would though, be nice to understand how the -station-names whoodoo works if 
only for future reference. I have found some stuff on the Wiki but nothing that 
makes any sense to me.

Our data set has only been one level so far and with hindsight we should have 
done things very differently but at the start of the learning process you can 
not always see that. Anyway this week we have two levels of data working with 
the latest stuff so a step forward I think.

I keep looking at the older stuff and thinking about redoing it to organise it 
better but then think well it all works, so lets not bother and go for a beer.

Nick

From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Martin Sluka via 
Therion
Sent: 02 March 2018 11:10
To: List for Therion users 
Cc: Martin Sluka 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Error When Adding A new Cave to Master Index

Nick,

first off all, Therion is able to work only with unique informations which are 
in a survey/endsurvey wrapper.


It means, if you define map outside of the survey/endsurvey wrapper in .th file 
there must be another higher level survey/endsurvey wrapper which will cover 
all information Therion needs and which you define as source in .thconfig.


My way is to use for first level surveys (log of one survey trip) definitions 
of map(s) inside survey/endsurvey wrapper as I include particular .th2 file 
there too. So in this survey/endsurvey wrapper are all informations including 
scrap drawings. In higher level I simply "input" .th file, which means the 
survey/endsurvey wrapper of higher level has access to all necessary data 
without -station-names woodoo.


When I want to define a higher level map I must use scrap_name@survey_name, not 
only scrap_name. Etc.


Martin S.

On Mar 02, 2018, at 11:01 AM, Nick Bairstow via Therion 
mailto:therion@speleo.sk>> wrote:
OK as is normally the case with these things I spotted the error within five 
minutes of asking for help, but it has raised a another question.
My problem was quite simply I had no survey/end survey wrapper. I have been 
using this index file for over two years and never noticed however it has 
worked perfectly and produced what I needed.

I now ask why did the index.th compile OK with the other 18 surveys listed in 
it.

The only difference between the first 18 surveys and the last non-working one 
was that in each scrap of the 18 previous surveys I used the option 
-station-names “” “@surveyname”. I was shown this when I started learning 
Therion but never really new why. When using this option to make any survey.th 
compile I have to make sure the map/endmap is outside the survey/endsurvey 
wrapper.

With the my latest survey file I did not use the scrap option and just went 
with the “normal way” with everything in survey.th within the survey/endsurvey 
and then the index .th failed due to having no survey/endsurvey wrapper.
Clearly I do not yet fully understand the process even though I can make things 
work, so lots more reading I think. Does anyone know of a good explanation 
somewhere, most thing I read I find a little confusing.

Also if someone would like to explain the
-station-names “” “@surveyname” bit I would be very grateful.

I suspect I’m not the only one to have struggled with this.

Thanks for the previous answers guys.


Nick

From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bruce Mutton via 
Therion
Sent: 01 March 2018 19:23
To: 'List for Therion users' mailto:therion@speleo.sk>>
Cc: Bruce Mutton mailto:br...@tomo.co.nz>>
Subject: Re: [Therion] Error When Adding A new Cave to Master Index

Nick
I’m guessing you have created a map that contains the survey only for your new 
cave, and a map which contains scraps or maps for your other caves.
I do this intentionally while I am drawing up a new  piece of passage, then 
remove the survey map once I am finished.
Bruce

From: Therion mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk>> On 
Behalf Of Nick Bairstow via Therion
Sent: Friday, 2 March 2018 7:38 AM
To: List for Therion users mailto:therion@speleo.sk>>
Cc: Nick Bairstow mailto:n...@pff.uk.com>>
Subject: [Therion] Error When Adding A new Cave to Master Index

I have just added a small cave to my main index .th. Everything compiles but 
the pdf shows the new cave as shots and splays not as the normal walls etc you 
would expect in a map. All other caves display correctly as intended.
Has anyone point out what I am doing wrong.

Nick

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[Therion] Line steps -attr c 4

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

I'm having to draw some walkway grills and a couple of flights of stairs and 
have just found the -aatr c (number) option to be used with line steps to 
create any number of stair treads you desire.

Fantastic I thought but the command only seems to work if there are even 
numbers of line points in the polygon. If you have an odd number of points then 
your polygon is rendered as a red outline, which to be honest I think could 
potentially be quite useful for strange man made features.

I like this so I thought I'd share.

https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/drawingchecklist  details under Man made 
structures.

Nick

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Re: [Therion] Error When Adding A new Cave to Master Index - Therion Theory

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

Thanks Bruce, I seem to have missed this last year. I have read through your 
report and your stuff on the wiki several times and I think I now understand 
what I have been doing and why things have worked or not worked.

Applying this new knowledge will enable us to develop our dataset in a more 
controlled manner, I just wish I'd worked this out two years ago. What seemed 
simple at the time slowly becomes more complex as you add more stuff.

Thanks to everyone for their input.

Nick

From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bruce Mutton via 
Therion
Sent: 02 March 2018 21:11
To: 'List for Therion users' 
Cc: Bruce Mutton 
Subject: [Therion] Error When Adding A new Cave to Master Index - Therion Theory

Nick
This may or may not help, but you have stumbled, in part, into a topic I 
explored back in July 2017 (if seems much longer than that), with mixed 
feedback!
https://www.mail-archive.com/therion@speleo.sk/msg06555.html

At the time I made some changes based on feedback received.  I have not looked 
at it for a while, but have attached the file in its current state, with 
changes tracked.
It is still a bit rough I'm sorry.

Bruce



From: Therion mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk>> On 
Behalf Of Nick Bairstow via Therion
Sent: Friday, 2 March 2018 11:01 PM
To: List for Therion users mailto:therion@speleo.sk>>
Cc: Nick Bairstow mailto:n...@pff.uk.com>>
Subject: Re: [Therion] Error When Adding A new Cave to Master Index

OK as is normally the case with these things I spotted the error within five 
minutes of asking for help, but it has raised a another question.
My problem was quite simply I had no survey/end survey wrapper. I have been 
using this index file for over two years and never noticed however it has 
worked perfectly and produced what I needed.

I now ask why did the index.th compile OK with the other 18 surveys listed in 
it.

The only difference between the first 18 surveys and the last non-working one 
was that in each scrap of the 18 previous surveys I used the option 
-station-names "" "@surveyname". I was shown this when I started learning 
Therion but never really new why. When using this option to make any survey.th 
compile I have to make sure the map/endmap is outside the survey/endsurvey 
wrapper.

With the my latest survey file I did not use the scrap option and just went 
with the "normal way" with everything in survey.th within the survey/endsurvey 
and then the index .th failed due to having no survey/endsurvey wrapper.
Clearly I do not yet fully understand the process even though I can make things 
work, so lots more reading I think. Does anyone know of a good explanation 
somewhere, most thing I read I find a little confusing.

Also if someone would like to explain the
-station-names "" "@surveyname" bit I would be very grateful.

I suspect I'm not the only one to have struggled with this.

Thanks for the previous answers guys.


Nick

From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bruce Mutton via 
Therion
Sent: 01 March 2018 19:23
To: 'List for Therion users' mailto:therion@speleo.sk>>
Cc: Bruce Mutton mailto:br...@tomo.co.nz>>
Subject: Re: [Therion] Error When Adding A new Cave to Master Index

Nick
I'm guessing you have created a map that contains the survey only for your new 
cave, and a map which contains scraps or maps for your other caves.
I do this intentionally while I am drawing up a new  piece of passage, then 
remove the survey map once I am finished.
Bruce

From: Therion mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk>> On 
Behalf Of Nick Bairstow via Therion
Sent: Friday, 2 March 2018 7:38 AM
To: List for Therion users mailto:therion@speleo.sk>>
Cc: Nick Bairstow mailto:n...@pff.uk.com>>
Subject: [Therion] Error When Adding A new Cave to Master Index

I have just added a small cave to my main index .th. Everything compiles but 
the pdf shows the new cave as shots and splays not as the normal walls etc you 
would expect in a map. All other caves display correctly as intended.
Has anyone point out what I am doing wrong.

Nick

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[Therion] Therion Map Header Overrides

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

To follow on from Bruce's section on Therion header overrides in his Map 
Definitions thread it seems a good idea to split overrides off into a separate 
topic..

Survey and map definitions also give you control over the title that appears on 
the drawing.
It can be complicated, but I once figured it out, and made this bit of code to 
put in layouts used for plan outputs.  I prefer to allow Therion to decide the 
output title based on the information I have entered in surveys, maps and 
selections, but sometimes an override is required.  Note that Therion assumes a 
survey or map title is the same as its id, unless you specify -title "name" to 
override the id.  My preference is to always give surveys or maps likely to be 
a primary selection for output a title that I would like to see on a finished 
pdf output (and use a concise id).
The code, as below, only has effect if due to the users choices, Therion cannot 
deduce a unique name for the output.


   #PLAN Cave Map Details
  #
  # Define Map title overrides
code tex-map
   % Output map title as determined by Therion 5.3 is stored in cavename.
   % It will be empty if there are multiple maps selected for any one projection
   % AND there are multiple source surveys identified in the thconfig file
   % ie Therion can not infer a unique title from the input data given.
   % This code allows you to define an output map title {cavename} if it 
happens to be empty

  \edef\temp{\the\cavename}% cavename from Therion
  \edef\nostring{} % empty string
  \ifx\temp\nostring % test if cavename is empty
% if empty reassign cavename to describe selected maps as a group

\cavename={Project Area Caves}

  \else % if not empty keep the value set by therion, or assign an override 
cavename here
  \fi
endcode

I have been using this in my layouts to give me multiple lines on my map titles 
with the added ability to adjust the font size.  Size[30 or whatever size you 
need]
medskip can be changed to bigskip or smallskip to alter the spacing between the 
lines of text.

###THERION OVERIDES##

##Override Therion Map Header Data###
#--

code tex-map
\cavename={\size[20] Tom Taylors Cave\medskip \size[30] How Stean Gorge\medskip 
\size[30]North Yorkshire}
endcode

The override below is to change the Therion default team, cave length, cave 
depth data on the map output. Used in this case because a short surface survey 
needed to be shown on the map but the data was skewing the actual cave length 
and depth.

##Override cave length and depth to remove surface leg data##
#

code tex-map
\topoteam{BSD}
\cavelength{164m}
   \cavedepth{12m}
#endcode

Both these overrides I borrowed from one of Andrews configs in the BCA data 
archive which I find a great resource. No point reinventing the wheel, even if 
I could.

Nick



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Re: [Therion] Therion Map Header Overrides

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

Bruce, I have never used flags. I have just been though the Therion book and 
wiki for information but for clarification could you post an example of surface 
flag use please.

Thanks.

Nick


From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bruce Mutton via 
Therion
Sent: 09 May 2018 11:04
To: 'List for Therion users' 
Cc: Bruce Mutton 
Subject: [Therion] Therion Map Header Overrides

Nick
>  The override below is to change the Therion default team, cave length, cave 
> depth data on the map output. Used in this case because a short surface 
> survey needed to be shown on the map but the data was skewing the actual cave 
> length and depth.

I'm not sure that is a very good way to deal with the issue.
In the screenshot below I have a surface survey shown (green dots), designated 
surface by use of 'flags surface', 'flags not surface' interleaved with the 
survey data as appropriate.  No need to fudge the cave length or depth because 
Therion does not include surface data in the cave length.
There is some complexity around it, but you can show or hide the cave and 
surface centrelines using;
  symbol-show group surface-centreline
  symbol-hide group cave-centreline
Bruce

[cid:image001.jpg@01D3E795.51B2C4D0]


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Re: [Therion] Therion Map Header Overrides

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

Thanks Bruce very clear examples of surface flags. I now understand their use.

From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bruce Mutton via 
Therion
Sent: 09 May 2018 21:02
To: 'List for Therion users' 
Cc: Bruce Mutton 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Therion Map Header Overrides

Nick
Here are some examples of various 'flags' usage, for shot flags, not to be 
confused with station flags.  They are a survey property, not so much a drawing 
property.

Approximate and duplicate:
https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/extend?s[]=flags#summary_of_all_extend_options_for_survey_centrelines<https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/extend?s%5b%5d=flags#summary_of_all_extend_options_for_survey_centrelines>
 and scroll down to the code below "Creating links between separate caves that 
are close to each other".  That one is a bit oddball, not typical usage.

https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/metapost?s[]=flags#general_symbol_examples<https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/metapost?s%5b%5d=flags#general_symbol_examples>
 to redefine centrelines to reflect flag states.

And, um, yes, there is not too much on actual usage examples for flags surface. 
 Here is a snippet from my last Sunday's survey efforts.  A short cave that 
required three ptopo files to adequately capture it.  It is part of a survey 
loop that goes out of one entrance and into another...

data normal from to tape compass clino ignoreall
...
#following legs are within the cave
#3.18 3.192.099 355.01   -32.843.19 entrance rock
#3.18 3.192.098 355.2 -32.67
#3.18 3.192.098 355.31   -32.69
3.183.192.098 355.11   -32.73Calculated leg from 3 above
3.19-  0.269 49.83 -12.76
3.19-  0.588 43.99 45.86
3.19-  0.714 21.48 76.27
...

flags surface
#following legs are on the surface
  # extend right
#3.19 3.202.819 254.97   -14.443.21 other entrance rock
#3.19 3.202.818 255.03   -14.34
#3.19 3.202.819 255.11   -14.33
3.193.202.819 255.0 -14.37Calculated leg from 3 
above
3.20-  0.556 102.47   -59.13
3.20-  1.045 129.78   5.18
#3.20 3.216.017 207.42   -12.3
#3.20 3.216.026 207.53   -12.4
#3.20 3.216.067 207.48   -12.46
3.203.216.037 207.47   -12.39Calculated leg from 3 above

flags not surface
#following legs are within the cave
3.21-  1.275 43.78 -4.28
3.21-  2.5841.32 3.61
3.21-  2.914 39.54 15.74
...
  # extend left
#3.21 3.223.613 113.19   23.44
#3.21 3.223.616 113.08   23.59
#3.21 3.223.609 113.05   23.6#rename 3.22 as 3.14 to 
acknowledge loop
3.213.143.613 113.13   23.55 Calculated leg from 3 above
3.14-  4.408 324.85   -51.94

The survey-list output for this cave looks like...

Title

Length

Depth

Explored

Approx.

Duplicate

Surface

Shots

Stations

Wairoa Valley Cave, Nelson

128

10

0

0

3

9

428

431

1-Wairoa

46

7

0

0

0

0

131

132

2-Upper, Wairoa Cave

15

3

0

0

0

0

61

62

3-Downstream, Wairoa Cave

67

3

0

0

0

9

235

235


The total survey length (surface + cave + duplicate) is 140m, and 9m of it is 
on the surface.  There is also 3m of survey in there that is duplicated 
(happens to be a nosurvey "shot" for a visual-only connection established at 
the whole-cave level of survey.

Bruce

From: Therion mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk>> On 
Behalf Of Nick Bairstow via Therion
Sent: Thursday, 10 May 2018 3:02 AM
To: List for Therion users mailto:therion@speleo.sk>>
Cc: Nick Bairstow mailto:n...@pff.uk.com>>
Subject: Re: [Therion] Therion Map Header Overrides

Bruce, I have never used flags. I have just been though the Therion book and 
wiki for information but for clarification could you post an example of surface 
flag use please.

Thanks.

Nick


From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Bruce Mutton via 
Therion
Sent: 09 May 2018 11:04
To: 'List for Therion users' mailto:therion@speleo.sk>>
Cc: Bruce Mutton mailto:br...@tomo.co.nz>>
Subject: [Therion] Therion Map Header Overrides

Nick
>  The override below is to change the Therion default team, cave length, cave 
> depth data on the map output. Used in this case because a short surface 
> survey needed to be shown on the map but the data was skewing the actual cave 
> length and depth.

I'm not sure that is a very good way to deal with the issue.
In the screenshot below I have a surface survey shown (green dots), designated 
surface by use of 'flags surface', 'flags not surface' interleaved 

Re: [Therion] Help With Huge Survey File

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

Yes that is an option I was going to try but every xvi would as well as the 
shots and splays for the smaller amount of centreline data would still have the 
full large sketch. The huge sketch is one of the problems.
I would have to edit a copy of the full sketch for each new smaller section of 
centreline data in Pocket Topo which would mean deleting hundreds of sketch 
lines on each copy using a pda as I don’t think a file run in Pocket Topo on a 
windows pc can be edited. I think it would be doable but very time consuming 
and confusing.
I like Andrews option, I will have ago at the coordinates.

Nick

From: Therion [mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk] On Behalf Of Martin Sluka via 
Therion
Sent: 23 May 2018 17:17
To: List for Therion users 
Cc: Martin Sluka 
Subject: Re: [Therion] Help With Huge Survey File

More simple could be divide .th file to several smaller and generate particular 
.xvi files.

M.

Odesláno z iPhonu

23. 5. 2018 v 17:55, Andrew Atkinson via Therion 
mailto:therion@speleo.sk>>:
It would be perfectly possible to write a script to split up the xvi, into 
rectangles (with overlap) is the easiest, using only the first point in each 
line, to make it simple. I keep thinking I should it down and do it, but I'm a 
bit rushed with other things at the moment.

Nick, if you can work out the co-ordinates of say 6 rectangles (they can be 
different sizes) with a reasonable overlap, I'm far more likely to actually do 
the script, however no promises.
Andrew

On Wed, 23 May 2018, 13:46 Henry.Bennett--- via Therion, 
mailto:therion@speleo.sk>> wrote:
Hi Nick,

Took a quick look at this and it looks like you have yet to go through and 
define the survey stations in Therion.  I suspect this will push some of the 
data outside of the canvas and Therion doesn’t know how to deal with them.  My 
advice would be to go define each station as a survey point and then compile 
it.  Since the scrap defined is pretty small it would be cleaner to simply 
start again and convert the top file using topparser.  Break the scraps into 
sensible chunks.

The reason it take so long to load is the size of your xvi drawing file.  This 
is down to the whole cave being drawn on a single PocketTopo file and unless 
you can break that down I suspect you’ll just have to live with that.

Henry

From: Therion 
[mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk<mailto:therion-boun...@speleo.sk>] On Behalf 
Of Nick Bairstow via Therion
Sent: 23 May 2018 11:12
To: List for Therion users
Cc: Nick Bairstow
Subject: [Therion] Help With Huge Survey File

Somebody has sent me a project folder which contains one huge survey (6k+) made 
with Pocket Topo. It seems they had only partial knowledge on how to survey a 
cave of this size and only limited experience of Therion so the whole thing is 
a bit weird. I said I would attempt to sort it out. Andrew fixed one issue with 
the data which has moved us forward but my question now is how to proceed.
If I compile I can get .3d and .lox output which seems to work fine but the pdf 
output fails with a load of complaints. Looks like a size thing to me but 
having never seen this before I’m not sure.
To me the survey needs breaking up but again I am not sure of the best way to 
do this, can some of you clever chaps have a look and possibly offer advise 
please.
Be warned the th2 is difficult to handle my machine takes 3-4 mins just to load 
it and 2mins to refresh if I adjust the zoom.
The guys who collected the data spent an awful long time doing so and are 
obviously keen to use this data as redoing the survey is not an option.
It is quite an interesting problem and a very good example of how not to do 
things.
Any comments or involvement would be appreciated.

Nick

Dell Corporation Limited is registered in England and Wales. Company 
Registration Number: 2081369
Registered address: Dell House, The Boulevard, Cain Road, Bracknell,  
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Company details for other Dell UK entities can be found on  
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[Therion] Flowstone Symbols

[Nick Bairstow via Therion]

Has anyone got the code to make the UIS point Flowstone symbol (horizontal 
lines) into an area fill in contrast to the default Therion ASF Flowstone area 
fill (scallops).

Nick

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