[tw] Re: Faceted search

[TonyM]

Brady,

I always agree we need to keep it clear and simple. GenTags helps with that 
but a little more css to delineate the different tag equivalents could help.

Perhaps later I can elaborate in more depth, but the difference between 
"category", "subject", "keyword" is in some ways what you want them to be 
but if you use different solutions, databases and software you get a feel 
for how these differ. But in the list we must include tags.

   - Tags = freely attach one or more tags but often used make multiple 
   sets of things by sharing the same tag eg; giftidea or urgent usualy 
   optional
   - Categories = more often than not something, can belong to one of a set 
   of categories, though multiple are possible, often we want each tiddler to 
   have "a" category
   - Subject = Perhaps a large set of items organised into a limited set of 
   subjects eg; html css javascript 
   - key words = an almost random set of words that are applied to a 
   specific tiddler to add additional words, not in the text already to aid 
   searching. Zero, one or more keywords typical and need not occur on other 
   tiddlers.
   - Others that come to mind is 
   - Domain like Work, Personal, Family - a limited set of large groupings 
   to divide the whole content into say 3 domains.
   - Status = New Workinprogress closed ... However I have designed a 
   "solution" recently that derives the status from other information rather 
   than tagging items with a status.
   

The thing is we are a talking about knowledge and Information management 
and there are many ways to meet the same objective, but if we think hard 
enough we can find the better ways, ways that are often intuitive to users, 
because of there own lived experience of organising things.

In tiddlywiki we usually use tags to do all of the above but this can 
become overwhelming and it is not always easy to separate a category from a 
keyword, or status.  

Regards
Tony

On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 6:35:43 PM UTC+10, Brady77 wrote:
>
> Hi Tony,
>
> I can see your point. And have to admit that I was focused on tags, only. 
> You say that a tag is (technically) just another metadata "field:value" 
> pair. Sure, however there is something special about tags: you can find it 
> on top of tiddlers with distinct graphics. People tend to use them first. 
> If we wanted to add another filtering criteria (beside "keywords" for 
> fulltext search and "tags" for category selection) it will be certainly a 
> benefit. We should be cautious to keep the interface simple and 
> straightforward for regular users (not to discourage them by complexity). 
> So some sort of customization of the user interface regarding the filtering 
> fields will be great (in plugin settings, for instance). We should discuss 
> this with Jed.
>
> Can you elaborate on some of your points? Especially what is the 
> difference between "category", "subject", "keyword"? Maybe some examples 
> will help. What reason do you have for such a structure?
>
> Thanks.
>

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[tw] Re: Faceted search

[Miroslav Kalous]

Great discussion! I have been thinking about how to organize tiddlers in my 
TW as well. From the whole folders/tags/links/search debate, I internalized 
that it is the best to use search and rely on links as well, use tags as a 
supporting mechanism and leave folders to the previous centuries. However, 
I also know from before that tags can lose a lot of utility if they become 
way too many. So I decided to keep the amount of tags purposefully very 
limited. However, I find myself often thinking a would like to link-or-tag 
a tiddler to a more general one. What I do now in this situation is that I 
am creating tiddlers with more general topic, if they don't exist, I leave 
them empty and I link my actual tiddler I am working on to them. I also tag 
those more-general tiddlers "hook" just to have them all under one tag for 
review. But the key for my current workflow is to create the link and then 
other more-specific tiddlers related to the topic, if there is no obvious 
case for direct interconnection, are linked through this hook. I am not 
sure if this way is actually a good idea. Recently I have considered using 
sub-tags instead of these hooks. But as I don't want to mix my tags and 
subtags, there is no subtagging in the TW5 core, I was thinking of this 
workaround: just start all subtags with the same specific set of 
characters, say "Z-", so all subtags will list in the list of tags at the 
end and also I will immediately recognize they are subtags. The advantage 
of this is that from TW point of view these will still be tags, and that 
has advantages over using a specific field as mentioned in this debate 
(e.g. you can create a TOC). The disadvantage is that is a bit messy 
workaround, not a proper solution.

TonyM, I would be also interested to hear more about your 
system-under-consideration, e.g. how do you distinguish subjects from 
categories. Or to hear about how does it work for you in the future if you 
apply the system fully.



TonyM

On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 4:16:26 PM UTC+2, Brady77 wrote:
>
> Dear members,
>
> you may have the same problem: the only way I can remember things is by 
> having some *context*. How such a context is created depends on how 
> people actually think. You may recall a person via a place where you met 
> before. Or a time frame combined with a place. And emotions, maybe. 
> Probably the most popular scheme for creating a context is 
> *classification*. People tend to create "boxes" for things because they 
> need some context (of course, to be able to rule those things later, but it 
> is a different story). What are we forced to use in the IT world are 
> *folders* and *tags*. Folders allow for creating a *hierarchy*, but don't 
> allow to have a thing (a tiddler) to be in more than one folder at the same 
> time - *just one context only*. Tags on the other hand are *flat* in 
> structure, but allow for *more than one context*. Tiddlywiki allows for a 
> combination: *tags hierarchy*. Great! So I developed a system of tags 
> that helps me recall things quickly. Just to show you what I mean by a 
> "system of tags":
>
> 1. Data format
>
> 1.1 Image
>
> 1.2 Webpage
>
> 1.3 Video
>
> 1.4  ...
>
> 2. Message form
>
> 2.1 Report
>
> 2.2 Tutorial
>
> 2.3 Overview
>
> 2.4 Promo
>
> 3. Topic
>
> 3.1 Business
>
>  3.1.1 Marketing
>
> 3.1.1.1 Content marketing
>
> 3.1.1.2 SEO
>
> 3.1.2 Trading
>
> 3.1.2.1 Stock
>
> 3.1.2.2 Cryptocurrency 
>
> 3.2 Art
>
> 3.2.1 Visual
>
> 3.2.1.1 Typography
>
> 3.2.1.2 Photography
>
> 3.2.1.3 Drawing
>
> 3.2.1.4 Architecture
>
> 3.2.2 Performing
>
> 3.2.2.1 Music
>
> 3.2.2.2 Movie 
>
> 4. Subject
>
> 4.1 TiddlyWiki
>
> 4.2 Cisco
>
> 4.3 Donald Trump
>
> 4.4 ...
>
>
> What I created is a kind of faceted classification 
> . Let me describe 
> my ideal workflow, now:
>
> Say I came across an interesting post on Medium: *How to write something 
> that people like to read. * I decided to save it into my TiddlyWiki. With 
> Tiddlyclip I created new tiddler and added some tags, too: ["Webpage", 
> "Tutorial", "Content marketing","Typography"].  
>
> A few weeks later I am writing a blog post to support my business, but I 
> don't know how to write an interesting copy. Is there anything interesting 
> in my TiddlyWiki? Let's have a look: First I would type "marketing" into 
> the *search bar*. Next I want to narrow the fulltext search output to 
> categories, so I choose "*show me tags only"*. By clicking on a 
> "Marketing" keyword it will be added to the *search filter*. Now I have a 
> *list 
> of filtered tiddlers* from the Marketing *category *and all 
> *subcategories*. Beside the list of tiddlers there is a *list of related 
> tags.* What if I want to narrow my search again? I just click on 
> "Tutorial" (from the related tags list) to add the tag to the filter. There 
> are now two tags with a logical AND operator. If my list of tiddlers is 
> still too long, I may narrow 

[tw] Re: Faceted search

[Brady77]

Another bold idea: what if the *storyview* will be an *intelligent list*, 
that get populated with tiddlers based on the faceted search output? You 
may say:

"Hold on! Tiddlywiki has much more to offer than tags: there are *links* as 
the first-class citizens as well as *fields* to create a structure. If I 
click on link a tiddler gets into the storyview. It will collide with your 
faceted search."

Well, i think it can be work together. Imagine that you add "pin" to the 
top of tiddler. A pinned tidddler will not be affected by the filtering. If 
you don't need it anymore, you just close (or unpin) the tiddler.

What do you think?

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[tw] Re: Faceted search

[Brady77]

I would like to discuss another problem that is directly related to the 
search-and-filter topic: I find it difficult to work with hierarchy of 
tags. What i would like to have is a simple and intuitive 
"drag-and-drop" interface, where 
- on the left side will be a tags tree (expandable if you want)
- in the middle there will be the existing storyview
- on the right side the existing info panel (with Tiddlymap if you want)

Say I need to add context by categorizing: I just find my first relevant 
tag in the left tree and just drag-and-drop it on the tiddler in the 
middle. The same should be possible in the other direction (drag a tiddler 
and drop it onto a tag in the tree).

Double-clicking on a tag in the tree will result in adding this tag into 
the above mentioned search-and-filter field (probably on top? - depends on 
Jed's implementation).

Reordering tags within the tree: say I want a subcategory to go one level 
up. Simple drag-and-drop will do.

Regarding the tags tree on the left: what do you think about having a 
"switch" on the top of the tree:

   - If the switch is in the "off" position than all the tags in the tree 
   will be accessible
   - If the switch is "on" than the tree will be show only tags that are 
   used on tiddlers currently listed in the storyview

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[tw] Re: Faceted search

[Brady77]

Hi Tony,

I can see your point. And have to admit that I was focused on tags, only. 
You say that a tag is (technically) just another metadata "field:value" 
pair. Sure, however there is something special about tags: you can find it 
on top of tiddlers with distinct graphics. People tend to use them first. 
If we wanted to add another filtering criteria (beside "keywords" for 
fulltext search and "tags" for category selection) it will be certainly a 
benefit. We should be cautious to keep the interface simple and 
straightforward for regular users (not to discourage them by complexity). 
So some sort of customization of the user interface regarding the filtering 
fields will be great (in plugin settings, for instance). We should discuss 
this with Jed.

Can you elaborate on some of your points? Especially what is the difference 
between "category", "subject", "keyword"? Maybe some examples will help. 
What reason do you have for such a structure?

Thanks.

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[tw] Re: Faceted search

[TonyM]

Post Script

I should also of added, custom fields for with particular values 
For example 

   - source for a URL to where you found the info
   - file-location where supporting material is stored
   - etc...

Regards
Tony
 

On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 8:32:07 AM UTC+10, TonyM wrote:
>
> Brady,
>
> Not only do I believe you can achieve this with TiddlyWiki, you can go a 
> lot further. The same data can be organised multiple ways. Using title, 
> tags and content search will get you a long way but do not under estimate 
> the use of fields as well. Once a field exists it can be searched for its 
> existence with has:field[fieldname] even before you questions the fields 
> content. Then fields can be used like tags with one or multiple values in a 
> list in each field.
>
> One of the keys is ensuring a tiddler is classified on creation or update. 
> A number of things can be done to encourage this.
>
> Jeds GenTags plugin https://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/GenericTagFields/ 
> permits the building of Tag equivalent sets, which I plan to use for 
> categories and subjects and other organising keywords.
>
> Tag are great because we can apply any tag to any thing however as 
> complexity builds they become overwhelming. 
>
> To deal with this I initially used filters and lists that could list tags 
> that are tagged by another tag, I also used versions of the TableOfContents 
> that expose multiple hierarchies of tags starting with alternate master 
> tags.
>
> However in my more sophisticated wikis I plan to build independent 
> subject, category and keyword fields which have a curated set of "values" 
> so when entering content you are prompted to nominate one of more values 
> for each field, from a curated set of values. This will help prompt the 
> application of appropriate organising values.
>
> For Example
> Tags - adhoc or parent child relationships
> Category - One or more categories from a category list/hierarchy 
> Strict Category - One only categorie from a category list/hierarchy 
> Subject -  One or more subjects from a subject list/hierarchy 
> Strict Subject -  One only subject from a subject list/hierarchy 
> Keywords - any number of words, not in the text that may provide an avenue 
> to find the tiddler again
>
> After using the above methods you can also design searches that operate 
> across all values.
>
> Regards
> Tony
>
> On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 12:16:26 AM UTC+10, Brady77 wrote:
>>
>> Dear members,
>>
>> you may have the same problem: the only way I can remember things is by 
>> having some *context*. How such a context is created depends on how 
>> people actually think. You may recall a person via a place where you met 
>> before. Or a time frame combined with a place. And emotions, maybe. 
>> Probably the most popular scheme for creating a context is 
>> *classification*. People tend to create "boxes" for things because they 
>> need some context (of course, to be able to rule those things later, but it 
>> is a different story). What are we forced to use in the IT world are 
>> *folders* and *tags*. Folders allow for creating a *hierarchy*, but 
>> don't allow to have a thing (a tiddler) to be in more than one folder at 
>> the same time - *just one context only*. Tags on the other hand are 
>> *flat* in structure, but allow for *more than one context*. Tiddlywiki 
>> allows for a combination: *tags hierarchy*. Great! So I developed a 
>> system of tags that helps me recall things quickly. Just to show you what I 
>> mean by a "system of tags":
>>
>> 1. Data format
>>
>> 1.1 Image
>>
>> 1.2 Webpage
>>
>> 1.3 Video
>>
>> 1.4  ...
>>
>> 2. Message form
>>
>> 2.1 Report
>>
>> 2.2 Tutorial
>>
>> 2.3 Overview
>>
>> 2.4 Promo
>>
>> 3. Topic
>>
>> 3.1 Business
>>
>>  3.1.1 Marketing
>>
>> 3.1.1.1 Content marketing
>>
>> 3.1.1.2 SEO
>>
>> 3.1.2 Trading
>>
>> 3.1.2.1 Stock
>>
>> 3.1.2.2 Cryptocurrency 
>>
>> 3.2 Art
>>
>> 3.2.1 Visual
>>
>> 3.2.1.1 Typography
>>
>> 3.2.1.2 Photography
>>
>> 3.2.1.3 Drawing
>>
>> 3.2.1.4 Architecture
>>
>> 3.2.2 Performing
>>
>> 3.2.2.1 Music
>>
>> 3.2.2.2 Movie 
>>
>> 4. Subject
>>
>> 4.1 TiddlyWiki
>>
>> 4.2 Cisco
>>
>> 4.3 Donald Trump
>>
>> 4.4 ...
>>
>>
>> What I created is a kind of faceted classification 
>> . Let me describe 
>> my ideal workflow, now:
>>
>> Say I came across an interesting post on Medium: *How to write something 
>> that people like to read. * I decided to save it into my TiddlyWiki. 
>> With Tiddlyclip I created new tiddler and added some tags, too: ["Webpage", 
>> "Tutorial", "Content marketing","Typography"].  
>>
>> A few weeks later I am writing a blog post to support my business, but I 
>> don't know how to write an interesting copy. Is there anything interesting 
>> in my TiddlyWiki? Let's have a look: First I would type "marketing" into 
>> the *search bar*. Next I want to narrow the fulltext search output to 
>> categories, so I choose "*show me tags 

[tw] Re: Faceted search

[TonyM]

Brady,

Not only do I believe you can achieve this with TiddlyWiki, you can go a 
lot further. The same data can be organised multiple ways. Using title, 
tags and content search will get you a long way but do not under estimate 
the use of fields as well. Once a field exists it can be searched for its 
existence with has:field[fieldname] even before you questions the fields 
content. Then fields can be used like tags with one or multiple values in a 
list in each field.

One of the keys is ensuring a tiddler is classified on creation or update. 
A number of things can be done to encourage this.

Jeds GenTags plugin https://ooktech.com/jed/ExampleWikis/GenericTagFields/ 
permits the building of Tag equivalent sets, which I plan to use for 
categories and subjects and other organising keywords.

Tag are great because we can apply any tag to any thing however as 
complexity builds they become overwhelming. 

To deal with this I initially used filters and lists that could list tags 
that are tagged by another tag, I also used versions of the TableOfContents 
that expose multiple hierarchies of tags starting with alternate master 
tags.

However in my more sophisticated wikis I plan to build independent subject, 
category and keyword fields which have a curated set of "values" so when 
entering content you are prompted to nominate one of more values for each 
field, from a curated set of values. This will help prompt the application 
of appropriate organising values.

For Example
Tags - adhoc or parent child relationships
Category - One or more categories from a category list/hierarchy 
Strict Category - One only categorie from a category list/hierarchy 
Subject -  One or more subjects from a subject list/hierarchy 
Strict Subject -  One only subject from a subject list/hierarchy 
Keywords - any number of words, not in the text that may provide an avenue 
to find the tiddler again

After using the above methods you can also design searches that operate 
across all values.

Regards
Tony

On Friday, April 6, 2018 at 12:16:26 AM UTC+10, Brady77 wrote:
>
> Dear members,
>
> you may have the same problem: the only way I can remember things is by 
> having some *context*. How such a context is created depends on how 
> people actually think. You may recall a person via a place where you met 
> before. Or a time frame combined with a place. And emotions, maybe. 
> Probably the most popular scheme for creating a context is 
> *classification*. People tend to create "boxes" for things because they 
> need some context (of course, to be able to rule those things later, but it 
> is a different story). What are we forced to use in the IT world are 
> *folders* and *tags*. Folders allow for creating a *hierarchy*, but don't 
> allow to have a thing (a tiddler) to be in more than one folder at the same 
> time - *just one context only*. Tags on the other hand are *flat* in 
> structure, but allow for *more than one context*. Tiddlywiki allows for a 
> combination: *tags hierarchy*. Great! So I developed a system of tags 
> that helps me recall things quickly. Just to show you what I mean by a 
> "system of tags":
>
> 1. Data format
>
> 1.1 Image
>
> 1.2 Webpage
>
> 1.3 Video
>
> 1.4  ...
>
> 2. Message form
>
> 2.1 Report
>
> 2.2 Tutorial
>
> 2.3 Overview
>
> 2.4 Promo
>
> 3. Topic
>
> 3.1 Business
>
>  3.1.1 Marketing
>
> 3.1.1.1 Content marketing
>
> 3.1.1.2 SEO
>
> 3.1.2 Trading
>
> 3.1.2.1 Stock
>
> 3.1.2.2 Cryptocurrency 
>
> 3.2 Art
>
> 3.2.1 Visual
>
> 3.2.1.1 Typography
>
> 3.2.1.2 Photography
>
> 3.2.1.3 Drawing
>
> 3.2.1.4 Architecture
>
> 3.2.2 Performing
>
> 3.2.2.1 Music
>
> 3.2.2.2 Movie 
>
> 4. Subject
>
> 4.1 TiddlyWiki
>
> 4.2 Cisco
>
> 4.3 Donald Trump
>
> 4.4 ...
>
>
> What I created is a kind of faceted classification 
> . Let me describe 
> my ideal workflow, now:
>
> Say I came across an interesting post on Medium: *How to write something 
> that people like to read. * I decided to save it into my TiddlyWiki. With 
> Tiddlyclip I created new tiddler and added some tags, too: ["Webpage", 
> "Tutorial", "Content marketing","Typography"].  
>
> A few weeks later I am writing a blog post to support my business, but I 
> don't know how to write an interesting copy. Is there anything interesting 
> in my TiddlyWiki? Let's have a look: First I would type "marketing" into 
> the *search bar*. Next I want to narrow the fulltext search output to 
> categories, so I choose "*show me tags only"*. By clicking on a 
> "Marketing" keyword it will be added to the *search filter*. Now I have a 
> *list 
> of filtered tiddlers* from the Marketing *category *and all 
> *subcategories*. Beside the list of tiddlers there is a *list of related 
> tags.* What if I want to narrow my search again? I just click on 
> "Tutorial" (from the related tags list) to add the tag to the filter. There 
> are now two tags with a logical AND operator. If my list of tiddlers is 
> 

[tw] Re: Faceted search

[Brady77]

Thanks, Jed. I did try your interface. Your basic idea (i.e. filtering by 
related tags) is exactly what I am looking for. Should you find the 
mentioned workflow more user-friendly I would be really glad if you can 
bring it to life. I cannot help you with coding, but will be at hand to 
discuss it further / test it.

Thank you Diego for your support. You have read my mind. Every note that I 
take is just a waste of time if I cannot find it within seconds. What is 
also interesting with the proposed workflow: while you filter your contexts 
/by adding and removing related tags/, you may uncover relations that *you 
didn't expect to be there*. "Exploring" your Wiki is probably close-fitting 
term for my workflow. An adventurous expedition while you play with related 
tags. Just a side note: Tiddlywiki is a very powerful system not only for 
storing data, but for searching and filtering as well. The only problem is 
that it is *too complicated* for me to exploit its full potential. 
Thankfully, there is generous community to help me. Maybe the TiddlyWiki 
documentation should exist in two versions: first one for regular users 
like me with little (or none) technical skills and the second version for 
coders like Jed that can make it even better. Diego I will be happy if you 
add your ideas regarding the interface to make it even better.

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[tw] Re: Faceted search

[Diego Mesa]

I think this is a great idea. I've long thought that in a knowledge 
organization system like TW, search should be a FIRST CLASS entity! Things 
like a large, central search bar and meaningful navigation, and 
stratification of results as you've described.

I think something like this should 100% be the next TW priority!

On Thursday, April 5, 2018 at 9:16:26 AM UTC-5, Petr Bradáč wrote:
>
> Dear members,
>
> you may have the same problem: the only way I can remember things is by 
> having some *context*. How such a context is created depends on how 
> people actually think. You may recall a person via a place where you met 
> before. Or a time frame combined with a place. And emotions, maybe. 
> Probably the most popular scheme for creating a context is 
> *classification*. People tend to create "boxes" for things because they 
> need some context (of course, to be able to rule those things later, but it 
> is a different story). What are we forced to use in the IT world are 
> *folders* and *tags*. Folders allow for creating a *hierarchy*, but don't 
> allow to have a thing (a tiddler) to be in more than one folder at the same 
> time - *just one context only*. Tags on the other hand are *flat* in 
> structure, but allow for *more than one context*. Tiddlywiki allows for a 
> combination: *tags hierarchy*. Great! So I developed a system of tags 
> that helps me recall things quickly. Just to show you what I mean by a 
> "system of tags":
>
> 1. Data format
>
> 1.1 Image
>
> 1.2 Webpage
>
> 1.3 Video
>
> 1.4  ...
>
> 2. Message form
>
> 2.1 Report
>
> 2.2 Tutorial
>
> 2.3 Overview
>
> 2.4 Promo
>
> 3. Topic
>
> 3.1 Business
>
>  3.1.1 Marketing
>
> 3.1.1.1 Content marketing
>
> 3.1.1.2 SEO
>
> 3.1.2 Trading
>
> 3.1.2.1 Stock
>
> 3.1.2.2 Cryptocurrency 
>
> 3.2 Art
>
> 3.2.1 Visual
>
> 3.2.1.1 Typography
>
> 3.2.1.2 Photography
>
> 3.2.1.3 Drawing
>
> 3.2.1.4 Architecture
>
> 3.2.2 Performing
>
> 3.2.2.1 Music
>
> 3.2.2.2 Movie 
>
> 4. Subject
>
> 4.1 TiddlyWiki
>
> 4.2 Cisco
>
> 4.3 Donald Trump
>
> 4.4 ...
>
>
> What I created is a kind of faceted classification 
> . Let me describe 
> my ideal workflow, now:
>
> Say I came across an interesting post on Medium: *How to write something 
> that people like to read. * I decided to save it into my TiddlyWiki. With 
> Tiddlyclip I created new tiddler and added some tags, too: ["Webpage", 
> "Tutorial", "Content marketing","Typography"].  
>
> A few weeks later I am writing a blog post to support my business, but I 
> don't know how to write an interesting copy. Is there anything interesting 
> in my TiddlyWiki? Let's have a look: First I would type "marketing" into 
> the *search bar*. Next I want to narrow the fulltext search output to 
> categories, so I choose "*show me tags only"*. By clicking on a 
> "Marketing" keyword it will be added to the *search filter*. Now I have a 
> *list 
> of filtered tiddlers* from the Marketing *category *and all 
> *subcategories*. Beside the list of tiddlers there is a *list of related 
> tags.* What if I want to narrow my search again? I just click on 
> "Tutorial" (from the related tags list) to add the tag to the filter. There 
> are now two tags with a logical AND operator. If my list of tiddlers is 
> still too long, I may narrow it again by choosing "Content marketing". 
> Voila, my article is there! ;)
>
> Do you think it is feasible to create something like this? Something what 
> Amazon has on his pages - a faceted search. Sorry for my complicated 
> description.
>
>
>

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[tw] Re: Faceted search

[Jed Carty]

While the interface you describe is much better than what I made (some 
improvements to to tiddlywiki since I made it would allow the sort of 
interface you are describing), I have something similar in my bookmarks 
plugin.

Look at the Bookmarks Sorted By Tags tab 
here 
https://ooktech.com/TiddlyWiki/Bookmarks/#%24%3A%2Fplugins%2FOokTech%2FBookmarks%2FBookmarks,
 
you select tags using the drop down menu.

There are a lot of improvements needed before it is as nice as what you 
describe, but it is possible.

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