subject:"\[tw5\] Re\: The Google Groups Problem \-\- Revisited"

So there is already

- Bob and singleexec

- NoteSelf
- TiddlyWeb (which the now shut down
TiddlySpace used)

..that all could probably function as parts(!) in either discussion systems
or other collaborative knowledge bases, because they are scaleable and can
all serve single tiddlers (I think).

In my "don't waste your time" post above I didn't bring up the (single)
route that I think can bypass the mentioned difficulties in setting up a
new forum simply because I'm afraid I'd annoy people by constantly
returning to it... but, since we're touching it now; TWederation would save
us all ;-)

What I mean is that if the discussion system was well integrated in the TW
*that
one uses anyway*, then the user base could grow very organically becaue it
would be *so very accessible*. In federated wikis you author your posts in
your own TW - be they discussion posts or whatever - and just leave them
there for subscribers to fetch! This setup would not need promotion in the
same sense as "external" solutions because once you install it (e.g a
plugin) it is *there*. No need to go places every time. (Who knows, it
might even make it into standard distro comparable to the TiddlySpot saver.
This would propel TW into a completely new game!)

Now, consider that the main brain behind the first rendition of TWederation
is none other than the Jedi master currently master minding Boba Fett...

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

I believe that note self uses couchdb as the database back-end and I 
believe changes the tiddlers in the wiki dynamically. Bob can dynamically 
load or unload tiddlers or even wikis after they are loaded. So it is very 
possible and there are at least two cases where something other than 
loading everything at the page load happens. I hope, given the amount of 
time put into both note self, Bob and the related plugins that it isn't 
just an academic exercise.

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Re: [tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited



On Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 11:44:55 AM UTC-7, Mat wrote:
>
>
> Well, I was referring to what the end user interfaces with. The underlying 
> backend can be whatever-it-takes. We saw one system in TiddlySpace but it 
> could be any backend DB + distribution system but with an interfacing TW 
> layer for the end user. TW is just a web page. Particularly if we're 
> talking about distributing loose, i.e individual, tiddlers. Or am I 
> fundamentally misunderstanding something?
>
>
>
So, you're suggesting a non-existent database interface system? I haven't 
seen any use of TW as a front-end. My understanding is that in all cases, 
even with lazy-loading, all the tiddlers have to come over when you load a 
page. Imagine loading the title of every wikipedia entry when you're 
looking up "anteater". If there's some other technology that works with TW, 
then it hasn't been advertised much.

Oh well. It's all pretty academic. 

-- Mark

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Re: [tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

2018-08-22 Thread PMario

On Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 8:16:08 PM UTC+2, Mark S. wrote:
>
> TW wasn't meant to be a robust, multi-user wiki. There are plenty of 
> Wiki's out there whose developers have years of experience with the 
> concerns and perils of creating web-ready wiki applications. Chasing after 
> TW-based solutions is a rabbit hole that we don't have to go down just 
> because the idea is neat. 
>

We already know that TW has problems scaling, so if the idea is to provide 
> a massive index to TW solutions, wouldn't it be better to use a tool made 
> for the job?
>

IMO that's wrong. We used to have TiddlySpace which scaled perfectly well. 
... The problem is, that it has been shut down. 

The TW concept scales, if bags and recipes would be a thing.. We have no 
solution at the moment, that implements the TW "bags" and "recipes" 
mechanism. With these elements we would be good to go. ... 

> It doesn't take away from the utility of TW just because it's not the best 
> choice for some other job.
>
> Consider that all the code for TW is kept on GitHub. 
>

> Hey! Wouldn't it be neat to store it all inside a TW file! 
> Just add version control, multi-user configuration, and you're done! 
>

You are right. 

> Who needs GH!
>

Developers.

As Mat mentioned, the DAT-project may be a "non-dev" possibility here. ... 
I'm exploring it since quite some time, but don't have something to show 
that works with the latest version. 

I do have a video that shows how TW worked with an alpha API 
, *which doesn't exist anymore*. 
Beaker Version 0.8.0 should have the same possibilities again. But some 
work will be needed to adjust the experimental code to the new API.  

Just my thoughts.  

have fun!
mario

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[tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

2018-08-22 Thread Diego Mesa

Noteself uses Discourse forum software, and its the most 
successful non-official TW place I've come across. 

On Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 2:02:56 PM UTC-5, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> Mark S,
>
> I currently have 3 people who use the version of Bob I have hosted for 
> Ooktech. The concern there isn't that it isn't ready to have people use it, 
> it is that it wouldn't be a good idea to have just me in change of that and 
> to host a community project on ooktech's test server.
>
> If people want guest login's and a wiki that everyone can play around on I 
> can probably set that up, I have to make sure it is ok with the people I 
> work with first though. The biggest reservations brought up in the past is 
> that we don't like the idea of hosting content for other people because 
> that easily leads to uncomfortable situations.
>
> Of course I have considered security, I wouldn't use it otherwise. Spam 
> shouldn't be a big issue because you have to be logged in to modify 
> anything (or view private wikis). It uses the same security for 
> authorisation and access that should be standard on any secure part of the 
> internet.
>

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[tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

Mark S,

I currently have 3 people who use the version of Bob I have hosted for 
Ooktech. The concern there isn't that it isn't ready to have people use it, 
it is that it wouldn't be a good idea to have just me in change of that and 
to host a community project on ooktech's test server.

If people want guest login's and a wiki that everyone can play around on I 
can probably set that up, I have to make sure it is ok with the people I 
work with first though. The biggest reservations brought up in the past is 
that we don't like the idea of hosting content for other people because 
that easily leads to uncomfortable situations.

Of course I have considered security, I wouldn't use it otherwise. Spam 
shouldn't be a big issue because you have to be logged in to modify 
anything (or view private wikis). It uses the same security for 
authorisation and access that should be standard on any secure part of the 
internet.

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Re: [tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

Want. Eat. Dog Food.

<:-)

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Re: [tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

Mark S. wrote:
>
> TW wasn't meant to be a robust, multi-user wiki [...] Chasing after 
> TW-based solutions is a rabbit hole that we don't have to go down just 
> because the idea is neat. We already know that TW has problems scaling, so 
> if the idea is to provide a massive index to TW solutions, wouldn't it be 
> better to use a tool made for the job?
>

Well, I was referring to what the end user interfaces with. The underlying 
backend can be whatever-it-takes. We saw one system in TiddlySpace but it 
could be any backend DB + distribution system but with an interfacing TW 
layer for the end user. TW is just a web page. Particularly if we're 
talking about distributing loose, i.e individual, tiddlers. Or am I 
fundamentally misunderstanding something?

Consider that all the code for TW is kept on GitHub. Hey! Wouldn't it be 
> neat to store it all inside a TW file! Just add version control, multi-user 
> configuration, and you're done! Who needs GH!
>

Irony? But since you use this example; My point is that GH could be the 
underlying db, even hosting discussion posts, including an interfacing TW 
for the end user. No small coding project ;-)

> By sanctioned, it's like you said -- Jeremy has to approve it and provide 
> direction to it prominently at TiddlyWiki.com.
>

Ah, yes.

<:-)

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Re: [tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

Don't let the *awesome* become the enemy of the *real*.

TW wasn't meant to be a robust, multi-user wiki. There are plenty of Wiki's 
out there whose developers have years of experience with the concerns and 
perils of creating web-ready wiki applications. Chasing after TW-based 
solutions is a rabbit hole that we don't have to go down just because the 
idea is neat. We already know that TW has problems scaling, so if the idea 
is to provide a massive index to TW solutions, wouldn't it be better to use 
a tool made for the job?

It doesn't take away from the utility of TW just because it's not the best 
choice for some other job.

Consider that all the code for TW is kept on GitHub. Hey! Wouldn't it be 
neat to store it all inside a TW file! Just add version control, multi-user 
configuration, and you're done! Who needs GH!

By sanctioned, it's like you said -- Jeremy has to approve it and provide 
direction to it prominently at TiddlyWiki.com.

-- Mark

On Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 10:52:52 AM UTC-7, Mat wrote:
>
> Mark S. wrote:
>>
>> All we need is a "sanctioned" wiki (not TW)  that provides pointers and 
>> meta information re discussions in the Guugle group. 
>>
>
> Why specifically not a TW? (or what do you mean with sanctioned?)
>
> I do hope that we eventually have a TW based system for this because it 
> would (1) be awesome that anyone could customize it himself and (2) be 
> awesome *per se*.
>
> 
>
> Possibly relevant for this discussion is Beaker Browser 
> . I note they now also have a windows 
> installer. As you know, Beaker Browser is an experimental browser that 
> enables anyone to publish stuff straight onto the internet directly from 
> their computer - no server needed. One compromise is that it doesn't use 
> the http protocol but instead a special other protocol which is why you 
> need the special browser. BTW, they've put up some videos on their site. 
> This one gets interesting at 21:20 . 
>
>
> <:-)
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

Mark S. wrote:
>
> All we need is a "sanctioned" wiki (not TW)  that provides pointers and 
> meta information re discussions in the Guugle group. 
>

Why specifically not a TW? (or what do you mean with sanctioned?)

I do hope that we eventually have a TW based system for this because it 
would (1) be awesome that anyone could customize it himself and (2) be 
awesome *per se*.

Possibly relevant for this discussion is Beaker Browser 
. I note they now also have a windows installer. 
As you know, Beaker Browser is an experimental browser that enables anyone 
to publish stuff straight onto the internet directly from their computer - 
no server needed. One compromise is that it doesn't use the http protocol 
but instead a special other protocol which is why you need the special 
browser. BTW, they've put up some videos on their site. This one gets 
interesting at 21:20 . 

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

Have you gotten to the point that you are willing to let multiple 
participants connect and make updates to your web-Bob ? It would be 
interesting to see how it works under stress. I'm curious how it deals with 
concurrency.

I know when posting on GG my post often occurs within a minute or two of 
someone else's. So concurrency happens. Or doesn't.

The other issue is security -- mostly about takeovers and spam. I suppose 
it doesn't have to be as hardened as portals to private info would.

Let me know if you need moderation help. 

-- Mark

On Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 8:02:02 AM UTC-7, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> If we are willing to have the plugin server require more than a static 
> file server than the twederation extensions I am working on for Bob should 
> work.
>
> I already have wikis being served by Bob on a public facing server and it 
> is working without trouble. I am currently working on a way for a wiki to 
> send a POST to that server and get a list of available plugins and then 
> request a plugin from that list from the server. There are going to be some 
> more pieces than that to allow access control but that is the general idea.
>
> Going the other way a person could get an account on the server and then 
> submit content to it using the same thing.
>
> The server would need to run on node but I don't think there is any reason 
> that the wikis that connect to it would need to be anything special. A 
> single file wiki running locally should have no trouble connecting.
>
> My hope is that we can set up a server that can act as the public 
> repository for plugins and code snippets. The biggest problem I have right 
> now is the social aspects of it. The server is going to require 
> administration and moderation and it really should be run by someone who is 
> more consistent than I am. From my experiments with Bob something like a 
> digital ocean droplet is more than powerful enough to work as the server.
>

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[tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

Mark,

Is there a reason that Bob wouldn't work for this?

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Re: [tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

Ah ... so you've noticed the pattern?

-- Mark

On Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 8:27:46 AM UTC-7, Mat wrote:
>
> While I agree that GG is insufficient here's a note to everyone thinking 
> "I'm going to set up a super solution!"
>
> *DON'T WASTE YOUR AND OUR TIME*
>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

All we need is a "sanctioned" wiki (not TW)  that provides pointers and 
meta information re discussions in the Guugle group. Then the group can 
continue, with the difference being that multiple participants can help 
organize secondary discussions, referrals and refinements related to GG 
discussions. All the rest of the infrastructure can continue as it is.

-- Mark

On Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 8:01:31 AM UTC-7, Mat wrote:
>
> Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>>
>> It’s worth pointing out that, though, that fixing this isn’t just a 
>> matter of spinning up a Heroku instance with a copy of Discourse. We need 
>> community infrastructure that is reliable, available, regularly backed up, 
>> properly maintained, handles our 13 year archive and has the means to deal 
>> with spam and abuse. None of that is impossible, but it’s way more work 
>> than just picking a piece of software and installing it somewhere….
>>
>
>
> IMO we don't need that full set up right away but rather a system that has 
> the potential to fulfill all those points.
>
> <:-)
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

While I agree that GG is insufficient here's a note to everyone thinking
"I'm going to set up a super solution!"

*DON'T WASTE YOUR AND OUR TIME*

I say this out of *respect* for your time (and everyone elses).

Why? OK, let me refine my statement:

You might have a really great solution, but before you invite people to it,
ensure that your solution is endorsed by AT LEAST Jeremy. For obvious
reasons, he is the foremost expert and decision maker on TW so wherever he
posts and hangs out, that is where the developers will hang out. There have
alread been several attempts made that, AFAICT, didn't gain any traction.
Further, for people to go to, or sign up for, a forum they must find it.
I.e it must be "marketed" continuously and while TW is 100% open source,
the tiddlywiki.com domain is not and that is currently the only relevant
place where a forum can be "advertised" unless you want to consistently
talk about it (...here, ironically).

IMO, any attempt that disregards these aspects is merely making things
*worse* by splitting up community attention and dispersing where to find
discussions.

So, please; don't waste your and our time.

Just my well-meaning opinion based on 10+ years of experience with this
community.

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

If we are willing to have the plugin server require more than a static file 
server than the twederation extensions I am working on for Bob should work.

I already have wikis being served by Bob on a public facing server and it 
is working without trouble. I am currently working on a way for a wiki to 
send a POST to that server and get a list of available plugins and then 
request a plugin from that list from the server. There are going to be some 
more pieces than that to allow access control but that is the general idea.

Going the other way a person could get an account on the server and then 
submit content to it using the same thing.

The server would need to run on node but I don't think there is any reason 
that the wikis that connect to it would need to be anything special. A 
single file wiki running locally should have no trouble connecting.

My hope is that we can set up a server that can act as the public 
repository for plugins and code snippets. The biggest problem I have right 
now is the social aspects of it. The server is going to require 
administration and moderation and it really should be run by someone who is 
more consistent than I am. From my experiments with Bob something like a 
digital ocean droplet is more than powerful enough to work as the server.

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Re: [tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> It’s worth pointing out that, though, that fixing this isn’t just a matter 
> of spinning up a Heroku instance with a copy of Discourse. We need 
> community infrastructure that is reliable, available, regularly backed up, 
> properly maintained, handles our 13 year archive and has the means to deal 
> with spam and abuse. None of that is impossible, but it’s way more work 
> than just picking a piece of software and installing it somewhere….
>


IMO we don't need that full set up right away but rather a system that has 
the potential to fulfill all those points.

<:-)

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Re: [tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

2018-08-22 Thread h0p3

That's a fine counter. If this is a matter of opportunity cost, I think 
replacing the discussion infrastructure is a lower priority (even though 
it's obviously an impediment).

Going back to my Arch example, the package management infrastructure is 
what makes it work in the first place. Finding effective ways to 
semi-centralize the body of packages that allow people to customize vanilla 
TWs is a more direct contribution to TW in both the short and longterm. 
Right now, I have to use spider around this forum and usually rely upon 
google through a lot of noise to find anything I want to install in TW.

What is necessary for this repository infrastructure?



On Wednesday, August 22, 2018 at 7:20:08 AM UTC-4, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Just to add another point about opportunity cost — if we were going to go 
> to the trouble of setting up and operating a custom service for the 
> TiddlyWiki community, then my first priority would not in fact be 
> discussions, it would be to set up a proper plugin library that allowed 
> easy third party submissions without requiring knowledge of GitHub.
>
> “Plugin library” wouldn’t be a great description — it would be a 
> repository of user uploaded plugins, snippets, tagged links, hints, etc. 
> Ideally people would be able to use an API to post to the library directly 
> from their own wikis. 
>
> ( I am not suggesting that we shouldn’t replace Google Groups with 
> something else, just that if it’s going to be DIY then I think there might 
> be higher priorities for our limited reserve of DIY skills).
>
> There have been discussions today about whether the logo is holding 
> TiddlyWiki back,  and now whether Google Groups is holding TiddlyWiki back. 
> I can understand why both these topics are being discussed because they 
> address daily irritations for many people. But, stepping back, I question 
> whether these are the most important threats or opportunities facing us.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy
>
>
> On 22 Aug 2018, at 12:09, Jeremy Ruston > 
> wrote:
>
> Hi Sylvain
>
> I run the Discourse French Community Forum since 2015, so yes we can :)
>
>
> Indeed, it’s a very useful experiment and I’ve been watching with interest.
>
> I've transfert it in new instance twice and thanks to the backup fonction 
> of Discourse, it's really easy. You have just to install a new one and 
> import the last automatic backup.
>
>
> It’s not so much that there be a technical mechanism for backups to be 
> taken, we need a failsafe operating procedure whereby backups are taken and 
> verified without relying entirely on the project team.
>
> Yes, there is regular new version, and it take little time to check server 
> and ssh it.
>
>
> Also it's OK with french audience since there is few traffic. If we do 
> worldwide, we need a paid account I think for email notification (even more 
> if we configure Discourse to reply post directly from mail like GG).
>
> About spam and abuse, I'm really surprising about Discourse ! It's really 
> impressive.
>
>
> Discourse does seem to be the most widely used of the available 
> off-the-shelf, open source replacements for Google Groups. 
>
> I’d certainly want the ability to work via email as we can with Google 
> Groups. (One of the reasons that I like this feature is that it means that 
> I have a complete, independent backup of all posts since 2005 that is 
> easily searchable).
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
> Sylvain
>
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> 
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>
>
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Re: [tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

2018-08-22 Thread Jeremy Ruston

Just to add another point about opportunity cost — if we were going to go to 
the trouble of setting up and operating a custom service for the TiddlyWiki 
community, then my first priority would not in fact be discussions, it would be 
to set up a proper plugin library that allowed easy third party submissions 
without requiring knowledge of GitHub.

“Plugin library” wouldn’t be a great description — it would be a repository of 
user uploaded plugins, snippets, tagged links, hints, etc. Ideally people would 
be able to use an API to post to the library directly from their own wikis. 

( I am not suggesting that we shouldn’t replace Google Groups with something 
else, just that if it’s going to be DIY then I think there might be higher 
priorities for our limited reserve of DIY skills).

There have been discussions today about whether the logo is holding TiddlyWiki 
back,  and now whether Google Groups is holding TiddlyWiki back. I can 
understand why both these topics are being discussed because they address daily 
irritations for many people. But, stepping back, I question whether these are 
the most important threats or opportunities facing us.

Best wishes

Jeremy

> On 22 Aug 2018, at 12:09, Jeremy Ruston  wrote:
> 
> Hi Sylvain
> 
>> I run the Discourse French Community Forum since 2015, so yes we can :)
> 
> Indeed, it’s a very useful experiment and I’ve been watching with interest.
> 
>> I've transfert it in new instance twice and thanks to the backup fonction of 
>> Discourse, it's really easy. You have just to install a new one and import 
>> the last automatic backup.
> 
> It’s not so much that there be a technical mechanism for backups to be taken, 
> we need a failsafe operating procedure whereby backups are taken and verified 
> without relying entirely on the project team.
> 
>> Yes, there is regular new version, and it take little time to check server 
>> and ssh it.
> 
>> Also it's OK with french audience since there is few traffic. If we do 
>> worldwide, we need a paid account I think for email notification (even more 
>> if we configure Discourse to reply post directly from mail like GG).
>> 
>> About spam and abuse, I'm really surprising about Discourse ! It's really 
>> impressive.
> 
> Discourse does seem to be the most widely used of the available 
> off-the-shelf, open source replacements for Google Groups. 
> 
> I’d certainly want the ability to work via email as we can with Google 
> Groups. (One of the reasons that I like this feature is that it means that I 
> have a complete, independent backup of all posts since 2005 that is easily 
> searchable).
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Jeremy.
> 
> 
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Sylvain
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "TiddlyWiki" group.
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>> .
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>> .
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>> .
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/ab472aae-1e91-4940-bb6a-f8ccdab2f56b%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>> .
> 

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Re: [tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

2018-08-22 Thread Jeremy Ruston

Hi Sylvain

> I run the Discourse French Community Forum since 2015, so yes we can :)

Indeed, it’s a very useful experiment and I’ve been watching with interest.

> I've transfert it in new instance twice and thanks to the backup fonction of 
> Discourse, it's really easy. You have just to install a new one and import 
> the last automatic backup.

It’s not so much that there be a technical mechanism for backups to be taken, 
we need a failsafe operating procedure whereby backups are taken and verified 
without relying entirely on the project team.

> Yes, there is regular new version, and it take little time to check server 
> and ssh it.

> Also it's OK with french audience since there is few traffic. If we do 
> worldwide, we need a paid account I think for email notification (even more 
> if we configure Discourse to reply post directly from mail like GG).
> 
> About spam and abuse, I'm really surprising about Discourse ! It's really 
> impressive.

Discourse does seem to be the most widely used of the available off-the-shelf, 
open source replacements for Google Groups. 

I’d certainly want the ability to work via email as we can with Google Groups. 
(One of the reasons that I like this feature is that it means that I have a 
complete, independent backup of all posts since 2005 that is easily searchable).

Best wishes

Jeremy.


> 
> Cheers,
> Sylvain
> 
> -- 
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> .
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> .

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Re: [tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

2018-08-22 Thread Sylvain Naudin



Le mercredi 22 août 2018 10:17:02 UTC+2, Jeremy Ruston a écrit :
>
> This is a frequent topic of discussion and I hope we can improve things.
>
> It’s worth pointing out that, though, that fixing this isn’t just a matter 
> of spinning up a Heroku instance with a copy of Discourse. We need 
> community infrastructure that is reliable, available, regularly backed up, 
> properly maintained, handles our 13 year archive and has the means to deal 
> with spam and abuse. None of that is impossible, but it’s way more work 
> than just picking a piece of software and installing it somewhere….
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy.
>


Hi Jeremy,

I run the Discourse French Community Forum since 2015, so yes we can :)
I've transfert it in new instance twice and thanks to the backup fonction 
of Discourse, it's really easy. You have just to install a new one and 
import the last automatic backup.
Yes, there is regular new version, and it take little time to check server 
and ssh it.

Also it's OK with french audience since there is few traffic. If we do 
worldwide, we need a paid account I think for email notification (even more 
if we configure Discourse to reply post directly from mail like GG).

About spam and abuse, I'm really surprising about Discourse ! It's really 
impressive.

Cheers,
Sylvain

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[tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited

2018-08-22 Thread TonyM

Jed

I belive I can make it not require the invite step. I was just setting it up to 
evaluate. 

Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: The Google Groups Problem -- Revisited