[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

[TW Tones]

Mark,

As I understand it this is already possible. External Javascript.

I also wonder if one could selectively remove code not used, however this 
would need an analysis process. And an exclusion on save, perhaps an 
alternate core plugin.

The dynamic range of application of tiddlywiki would possibly be enhanced 
with a lower size however in todays world we most often have sufficient 
overheads that reduction has less benefit than being comprehensive or self 
documented. 

Regards
Tony

On Thursday, 5 November 2020 08:12:12 UTC+11, Mark S. wrote:
>
> If TW5 could be made to run like javascript, then you could separate the 
> core from the working files. So you could have a local core library which 
> all your tiddlywiki files could resource, without having to include them in 
> every download/upload/save.
>
> On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 11:00:21 PM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:
>>
>> Tiddlywiki is rapidly improving and you can see great features in the 
>> recent releases. 
>> From 2.1.17+ amazing features have been added to Tiddlywiki! One question 
>> is about the size of empty.html (the virgin Tiddlywiki). See the below table
>>
>> Release   Size (kb)
>> 5.1.12   1820
>> 5.1.15   2025
>> 5.1.17   2033
>> 5.1.19   2153
>> 5.1.21   2235
>> 5.1.22   2197
>> 5.1.12   2282
>>
>> While I love the new features, but, how big a virgin Tiddlywiki  can be? 
>> Assuming many users work with single file mode and using different 
>> Tiddlywiki for different purposes, I think we should set a maximum size, 
>> before going to have bigger empty.html
>>
>>
>> Suggestions
>> *A. Use official plugins*
>> 1. Keep the core as light as possible, go down to 1MB size (strip 
>> everything extra)
>> 2. Put extra features in official plugins
>>
>> *B. Start a new generation *
>> 1.Release TW 5.2 with minimum size core (include only essential part)
>> 2. Leave all backward compatibility to Tiddlywiki 5.1.xx
>> 3. Stop developing 5.1.xx and only release bug fixes
>>
>> If Jeremy can go for a new generation of Tiddlywiki, I may also suggest
>> 1. Sweep the core from all duplicated codes and those retained backward 
>> compatibility and leave them for 5.1.xx
>> 2. Rethink about filters and implement using the more versatile approach, 
>> like those are going on in GitHub (e.g. Saq proposal for multi input 
>> filters)
>> 3. Use flexible switchable page layout
>> 4. Think for a cleaner scripting (remove all duplication, improved 
>> grammar, ... there is a lot of good discussions in the forum and GitHub)
>> 5. Think of a new name (re-branding)
>> 6. ...
>>
>> I am sure people can suggest more here
>>
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Mohammad
>>
>> TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
>> solutions in Tiddlywiki
>> TW-Commander  bulk operations on 
>> tiddlers
>> TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki 
>> trashbin tool
>> TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
>> bookmarking tool
>> TW-Todolist  organize, 
>> prioritize, and plan your work
>>
>> https://github.com/kookma
>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

If TW5 could be made to run like javascript, then you could separate the 
core from the working files. So you could have a local core library which 
all your tiddlywiki files could resource, without having to include them in 
every download/upload/save.

On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 11:00:21 PM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:
>
> Tiddlywiki is rapidly improving and you can see great features in the 
> recent releases. 
> From 2.1.17+ amazing features have been added to Tiddlywiki! One question 
> is about the size of empty.html (the virgin Tiddlywiki). See the below table
>
> Release   Size (kb)
> 5.1.12   1820
> 5.1.15   2025
> 5.1.17   2033
> 5.1.19   2153
> 5.1.21   2235
> 5.1.22   2197
> 5.1.12   2282
>
> While I love the new features, but, how big a virgin Tiddlywiki  can be? 
> Assuming many users work with single file mode and using different 
> Tiddlywiki for different purposes, I think we should set a maximum size, 
> before going to have bigger empty.html
>
>
> Suggestions
> *A. Use official plugins*
> 1. Keep the core as light as possible, go down to 1MB size (strip 
> everything extra)
> 2. Put extra features in official plugins
>
> *B. Start a new generation *
> 1.Release TW 5.2 with minimum size core (include only essential part)
> 2. Leave all backward compatibility to Tiddlywiki 5.1.xx
> 3. Stop developing 5.1.xx and only release bug fixes
>
> If Jeremy can go for a new generation of Tiddlywiki, I may also suggest
> 1. Sweep the core from all duplicated codes and those retained backward 
> compatibility and leave them for 5.1.xx
> 2. Rethink about filters and implement using the more versatile approach, 
> like those are going on in GitHub (e.g. Saq proposal for multi input 
> filters)
> 3. Use flexible switchable page layout
> 4. Think for a cleaner scripting (remove all duplication, improved 
> grammar, ... there is a lot of good discussions in the forum and GitHub)
> 5. Think of a new name (re-branding)
> 6. ...
>
> I am sure people can suggest more here
>
>
> Best wishes
> Mohammad
>
> TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
> solutions in Tiddlywiki
> TW-Commander  bulk operations on 
> tiddlers
> TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki trashbin 
> tool
> TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
> bookmarking tool
> TW-Todolist  organize, prioritize, 
> and plan your work
>
> https://github.com/kookma
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

[dieg...@gmail.com]

All,

Out of curiosity, when we say TW is big, what do we mean? relative to what? 
TWC? Anything else besides that? 

What is the incentive to make it smaller and smaller? Something like: "The 
smaller TW gets, the more we _"?

On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 2:52:00 PM UTC-6 TW Tones wrote:

> Mohammad,
>
> I think you will find empty.html is near its smallest, and as speeds and 
> storage increases this size becomes even less important, but yes we hope 
> tiddlywiki is universal, and there are very different circumstances the 
> world over.
>
>
>- On the server side there is a way to externalise javascript and of 
>course make use of skinny tiddlers so arguably you could reduce the size 
>"served" at least initially.
>- Also since tiddlywiki is a single file there are arguments that its 
>performance after initial load is higher and caching and CDN's may work 
>better.
>- Always use a splash screen to accommodate slow loading tiddlywikis.
>
>
> Have you some pressing issues that makes you to take this path to minimise?
>
> To me the same efforts would be better targeted.
>
> Regards
> Tones
>
>
> On Thursday, 5 November 2020 03:37:12 UTC+11, Mohammad wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 7:29:19 PM UTC+3:30 Mark S. wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 7:00:09 AM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:

 Listing all tiddlers with language word in their title using advanced 
 search [all[shadows]prefix[$:/]search:title[language]]   results in 
 965 tiddlers and they are *115 kb* (I am not sure how part of these 
 tiddlers can be distributed separately as language pack)

>>>
>>> You could hard-code the expressions into the system. However, it appears 
>>> that there is only about 60 bytes overhead per expression. So you would 
>>> only save 95kb (965 * 60) and you would lose a lot of flexibility.
>>>
>>> I don't think there's  enough cruft in TW to pare it down to 1 M. The 
>>> only way to get it down would be to rewrite major sections in Javascript.
>>>
>>
>> I have not gone deep in TW core, but considering organic growth of TW it 
>> should be true!
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

[TW Tones]

Mohammad,

I think you will find empty.html is near its smallest, and as speeds and 
storage increases this size becomes even less important, but yes we hope 
tiddlywiki is universal, and there are very different circumstances the 
world over.


   - On the server side there is a way to externalise javascript and of 
   course make use of skinny tiddlers so arguably you could reduce the size 
   "served" at least initially.
   - Also since tiddlywiki is a single file there are arguments that its 
   performance after initial load is higher and caching and CDN's may work 
   better.
   - Always use a splash screen to accommodate slow loading tiddlywikis.


Have you some pressing issues that makes you to take this path to minimise?

To me the same efforts would be better targeted.

Regards
Tones

On Thursday, 5 November 2020 03:37:12 UTC+11, Mohammad wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 7:29:19 PM UTC+3:30 Mark S. wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 7:00:09 AM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:
>>>
>>> Listing all tiddlers with language word in their title using advanced 
>>> search [all[shadows]prefix[$:/]search:title[language]]   results in 
>>> 965 tiddlers and they are *115 kb* (I am not sure how part of these 
>>> tiddlers can be distributed separately as language pack)
>>>
>>
>> You could hard-code the expressions into the system. However, it appears 
>> that there is only about 60 bytes overhead per expression. So you would 
>> only save 95kb (965 * 60) and you would lose a lot of flexibility.
>>
>> I don't think there's  enough cruft in TW to pare it down to 1 M. The 
>> only way to get it down would be to rewrite major sections in Javascript.
>>
>
> I have not gone deep in TW core, but considering organic growth of TW it 
> should be true!
>

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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

[Mohammad]

On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 7:29:19 PM UTC+3:30 Mark S. wrote:

>
>
> On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 7:00:09 AM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:
>>
>> Listing all tiddlers with language word in their title using advanced 
>> search [all[shadows]prefix[$:/]search:title[language]]   results in 
>> 965 tiddlers and they are *115 kb* (I am not sure how part of these 
>> tiddlers can be distributed separately as language pack)
>>
>
> You could hard-code the expressions into the system. However, it appears 
> that there is only about 60 bytes overhead per expression. So you would 
> only save 95kb (965 * 60) and you would lose a lot of flexibility.
>
> I don't think there's  enough cruft in TW to pare it down to 1 M. The only 
> way to get it down would be to rewrite major sections in Javascript.
>

I have not gone deep in TW core, but considering organic growth of TW it 
should be true!

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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 7:00:09 AM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:
>
> Listing all tiddlers with language word in their title using advanced 
> search [all[shadows]prefix[$:/]search:title[language]]   results in 
> 965 tiddlers and they are *115 kb* (I am not sure how part of these 
> tiddlers can be distributed separately as language pack)
>

You could hard-code the expressions into the system. However, it appears 
that there is only about 60 bytes overhead per expression. So you would 
only save 95kb (965 * 60) and you would lose a lot of flexibility.

I don't think there's  enough cruft in TW to pare it down to 1 M. The only 
way to get it down would be to rewrite major sections in Javascript.


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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

On a desktop with a local file, it doesn't make much difference. But on a 
small, older  device  over a slow data feed larger sizes will mean longer 
loading times and slower operation.

On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 7:07:30 AM UTC-8, odin...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Pardon my ignorance. But what are the benefits of a smaller empty TW5? It 
> seemed to be implied in this thread that this is the case.
>
> Op woensdag 4 november 2020 om 16:00:09 UTC+1 schreef Mohammad:
>
>> Hi David,
>>  I assume other language shall be installed on demand!
>> I have downloaded the latest empty.html from 
>> https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/
>>
>> *These are some facts*
>>
>> $:/core
>> has 2047 tiddlers and occupies around *1781 kb*
>>
>> Listing all tiddlers with language word in their title using advanced 
>> search [all[shadows]prefix[$:/]search:title[language]]   results in 
>> 965 tiddlers and they are *115 kb* (I am not sure how part of these 
>> tiddlers can be distributed separately as language pack)
>>
>> There is two themes distributed with empty.html
>> 1. Vanilla: *73.5 kb*
>> 2. Snowwhite: *3 kb* 
>>
>> There are 16 palettes in $:/core which occupies *66 kb*
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Mohammad
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 5:00:17 PM UTC+3:30 David Gifford wrote:
>>
>>> One thing that takes up space is the set of language tiddlers for 
>>> translating to other languages. English-speakers don't need those, usually. 
>>> What if those could be a plugin? Or else an English-only version stripped 
>>> of those tiddlers? Feels arrogant and colonial even mentioning it. I only 
>>> mention it as one area where TiddlyWiki could be at least a little lighter.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 1:00:21 AM UTC-6 Mohammad wrote:
>>>
 Tiddlywiki is rapidly improving and you can see great features in the 
 recent releases. 
 From 2.1.17+ amazing features have been added to Tiddlywiki! One 
 question is about the size of empty.html (the virgin Tiddlywiki). See the 
 below table

 Release   Size (kb)
 5.1.12   1820
 5.1.15   2025
 5.1.17   2033
 5.1.19   2153
 5.1.21   2235
 5.1.22   2197
 5.1.12   2282

 While I love the new features, but, how big a virgin Tiddlywiki  can 
 be? Assuming many users work with single file mode and using different 
 Tiddlywiki for different purposes, I think we should set a maximum size, 
 before going to have bigger empty.html


 Suggestions
 *A. Use official plugins*
 1. Keep the core as light as possible, go down to 1MB size (strip 
 everything extra)
 2. Put extra features in official plugins

 *B. Start a new generation *
 1.Release TW 5.2 with minimum size core (include only essential part)
 2. Leave all backward compatibility to Tiddlywiki 5.1.xx
 3. Stop developing 5.1.xx and only release bug fixes

 If Jeremy can go for a new generation of Tiddlywiki, I may also suggest
 1. Sweep the core from all duplicated codes and those retained backward 
 compatibility and leave them for 5.1.xx
 2. Rethink about filters and implement using the more versatile 
 approach, like those are going on in GitHub (e.g. Saq proposal for multi 
 input filters)
 3. Use flexible switchable page layout
 4. Think for a cleaner scripting (remove all duplication, improved 
 grammar, ... there is a lot of good discussions in the forum and GitHub)
 5. Think of a new name (re-branding)
 6. ...

 I am sure people can suggest more here


 Best wishes
 Mohammad

 TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
 solutions in Tiddlywiki
 TW-Commander  bulk operations 
 on tiddlers
 TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki 
 trashbin tool
 TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
 bookmarking tool
 TW-Todolist  organize, 
 prioritize, and plan your work

 https://github.com/kookma



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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

[Mohammad]

With a little customization it gets 3 to 4 MB in size and it is a bit heavy 
for single html!

On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 6:37:30 PM UTC+3:30 odin...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> Pardon my ignorance. But what are the benefits of a smaller empty TW5? It 
> seemed to be implied in this thread that this is the case.
>
> Op woensdag 4 november 2020 om 16:00:09 UTC+1 schreef Mohammad:
>
>> Hi David,
>>  I assume other language shall be installed on demand!
>> I have downloaded the latest empty.html from 
>> https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/
>>
>> *These are some facts*
>>
>> $:/core
>> has 2047 tiddlers and occupies around *1781 kb*
>>
>> Listing all tiddlers with language word in their title using advanced 
>> search [all[shadows]prefix[$:/]search:title[language]]   results in 
>> 965 tiddlers and they are *115 kb* (I am not sure how part of these 
>> tiddlers can be distributed separately as language pack)
>>
>> There is two themes distributed with empty.html
>> 1. Vanilla: *73.5 kb*
>> 2. Snowwhite: *3 kb* 
>>
>> There are 16 palettes in $:/core which occupies *66 kb*
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Mohammad
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 5:00:17 PM UTC+3:30 David Gifford wrote:
>>
>>> One thing that takes up space is the set of language tiddlers for 
>>> translating to other languages. English-speakers don't need those, usually. 
>>> What if those could be a plugin? Or else an English-only version stripped 
>>> of those tiddlers? Feels arrogant and colonial even mentioning it. I only 
>>> mention it as one area where TiddlyWiki could be at least a little lighter.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 1:00:21 AM UTC-6 Mohammad wrote:
>>>
 Tiddlywiki is rapidly improving and you can see great features in the 
 recent releases. 
 From 2.1.17+ amazing features have been added to Tiddlywiki! One 
 question is about the size of empty.html (the virgin Tiddlywiki). See the 
 below table

 Release   Size (kb)
 5.1.12   1820
 5.1.15   2025
 5.1.17   2033
 5.1.19   2153
 5.1.21   2235
 5.1.22   2197
 5.1.12   2282

 While I love the new features, but, how big a virgin Tiddlywiki  can 
 be? Assuming many users work with single file mode and using different 
 Tiddlywiki for different purposes, I think we should set a maximum size, 
 before going to have bigger empty.html


 Suggestions
 *A. Use official plugins*
 1. Keep the core as light as possible, go down to 1MB size (strip 
 everything extra)
 2. Put extra features in official plugins

 *B. Start a new generation *
 1.Release TW 5.2 with minimum size core (include only essential part)
 2. Leave all backward compatibility to Tiddlywiki 5.1.xx
 3. Stop developing 5.1.xx and only release bug fixes

 If Jeremy can go for a new generation of Tiddlywiki, I may also suggest
 1. Sweep the core from all duplicated codes and those retained backward 
 compatibility and leave them for 5.1.xx
 2. Rethink about filters and implement using the more versatile 
 approach, like those are going on in GitHub (e.g. Saq proposal for multi 
 input filters)
 3. Use flexible switchable page layout
 4. Think for a cleaner scripting (remove all duplication, improved 
 grammar, ... there is a lot of good discussions in the forum and GitHub)
 5. Think of a new name (re-branding)
 6. ...

 I am sure people can suggest more here


 Best wishes
 Mohammad

 TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
 solutions in Tiddlywiki
 TW-Commander  bulk operations 
 on tiddlers
 TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki 
 trashbin tool
 TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
 bookmarking tool
 TW-Todolist  organize, 
 prioritize, and plan your work

 https://github.com/kookma



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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

[Mohammad]

Hi Mark,

On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 6:20:13 PM UTC+3:30 Mark S. wrote:

> What makes you think that TW *can* be stripped down?
>

I am not quite familiar with  JS code behind the scene, but I see some of 
backward compatibility, some of non essential features can be stripped out 
and distributed in form of official plugin! Even filters and widgets can be 
cleaned and selected based on good programming styles and extra ones 
stripped out. But yes someone knows the Tiddlywiki internals can give a 
much more accurate measure of what really can be stripped out!

>
> TW was *born* overweight, compared to TWC.
>
Yep! 

>
> My guess is that the reason TW5 is so much bigger, is that so much of the 
> core is written in wikitext instead of javascript. This makes TW5 
> extensible, but also bulkier.
>
I think so!
 

>
>
> On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 11:00:21 PM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:
>>
>> Tiddlywiki is rapidly improving and you can see great features in the 
>> recent releases. 
>> From 2.1.17+ amazing features have been added to Tiddlywiki! One question 
>> is about the size of empty.html (the virgin Tiddlywiki). See the below table
>>
>> Release   Size (kb)
>> 5.1.12   1820
>> 5.1.15   2025
>> 5.1.17   2033
>> 5.1.19   2153
>> 5.1.21   2235
>> 5.1.22   2197
>> 5.1.12   2282
>>
>> While I love the new features, but, how big a virgin Tiddlywiki  can be? 
>> Assuming many users work with single file mode and using different 
>> Tiddlywiki for different purposes, I think we should set a maximum size, 
>> before going to have bigger empty.html
>>
>>
>> Suggestions
>> *A. Use official plugins*
>> 1. Keep the core as light as possible, go down to 1MB size (strip 
>> everything extra)
>> 2. Put extra features in official plugins
>>
>> *B. Start a new generation *
>> 1.Release TW 5.2 with minimum size core (include only essential part)
>> 2. Leave all backward compatibility to Tiddlywiki 5.1.xx
>> 3. Stop developing 5.1.xx and only release bug fixes
>>
>> If Jeremy can go for a new generation of Tiddlywiki, I may also suggest
>> 1. Sweep the core from all duplicated codes and those retained backward 
>> compatibility and leave them for 5.1.xx
>> 2. Rethink about filters and implement using the more versatile approach, 
>> like those are going on in GitHub (e.g. Saq proposal for multi input 
>> filters)
>> 3. Use flexible switchable page layout
>> 4. Think for a cleaner scripting (remove all duplication, improved 
>> grammar, ... there is a lot of good discussions in the forum and GitHub)
>> 5. Think of a new name (re-branding)
>> 6. ...
>>
>> I am sure people can suggest more here
>>
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Mohammad
>>
>> TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
>> solutions in Tiddlywiki
>> TW-Commander  bulk operations on 
>> tiddlers
>> TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki 
>> trashbin tool
>> TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
>> bookmarking tool
>> TW-Todolist  organize, 
>> prioritize, and plan your work
>>
>> https://github.com/kookma
>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

[odin...@gmail.com]

Pardon my ignorance. But what are the benefits of a smaller empty TW5? It 
seemed to be implied in this thread that this is the case.

Op woensdag 4 november 2020 om 16:00:09 UTC+1 schreef Mohammad:

> Hi David,
>  I assume other language shall be installed on demand!
> I have downloaded the latest empty.html from 
> https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/
>
> *These are some facts*
>
> $:/core
> has 2047 tiddlers and occupies around *1781 kb*
>
> Listing all tiddlers with language word in their title using advanced 
> search [all[shadows]prefix[$:/]search:title[language]]   results in 
> 965 tiddlers and they are *115 kb* (I am not sure how part of these 
> tiddlers can be distributed separately as language pack)
>
> There is two themes distributed with empty.html
> 1. Vanilla: *73.5 kb*
> 2. Snowwhite: *3 kb* 
>
> There are 16 palettes in $:/core which occupies *66 kb*
>
> Best wishes
> Mohammad
>
> On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 5:00:17 PM UTC+3:30 David Gifford wrote:
>
>> One thing that takes up space is the set of language tiddlers for 
>> translating to other languages. English-speakers don't need those, usually. 
>> What if those could be a plugin? Or else an English-only version stripped 
>> of those tiddlers? Feels arrogant and colonial even mentioning it. I only 
>> mention it as one area where TiddlyWiki could be at least a little lighter.
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 1:00:21 AM UTC-6 Mohammad wrote:
>>
>>> Tiddlywiki is rapidly improving and you can see great features in the 
>>> recent releases. 
>>> From 2.1.17+ amazing features have been added to Tiddlywiki! One 
>>> question is about the size of empty.html (the virgin Tiddlywiki). See the 
>>> below table
>>>
>>> Release   Size (kb)
>>> 5.1.12   1820
>>> 5.1.15   2025
>>> 5.1.17   2033
>>> 5.1.19   2153
>>> 5.1.21   2235
>>> 5.1.22   2197
>>> 5.1.12   2282
>>>
>>> While I love the new features, but, how big a virgin Tiddlywiki  can be? 
>>> Assuming many users work with single file mode and using different 
>>> Tiddlywiki for different purposes, I think we should set a maximum size, 
>>> before going to have bigger empty.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Suggestions
>>> *A. Use official plugins*
>>> 1. Keep the core as light as possible, go down to 1MB size (strip 
>>> everything extra)
>>> 2. Put extra features in official plugins
>>>
>>> *B. Start a new generation *
>>> 1.Release TW 5.2 with minimum size core (include only essential part)
>>> 2. Leave all backward compatibility to Tiddlywiki 5.1.xx
>>> 3. Stop developing 5.1.xx and only release bug fixes
>>>
>>> If Jeremy can go for a new generation of Tiddlywiki, I may also suggest
>>> 1. Sweep the core from all duplicated codes and those retained backward 
>>> compatibility and leave them for 5.1.xx
>>> 2. Rethink about filters and implement using the more versatile 
>>> approach, like those are going on in GitHub (e.g. Saq proposal for multi 
>>> input filters)
>>> 3. Use flexible switchable page layout
>>> 4. Think for a cleaner scripting (remove all duplication, improved 
>>> grammar, ... there is a lot of good discussions in the forum and GitHub)
>>> 5. Think of a new name (re-branding)
>>> 6. ...
>>>
>>> I am sure people can suggest more here
>>>
>>>
>>> Best wishes
>>> Mohammad
>>>
>>> TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
>>> solutions in Tiddlywiki
>>> TW-Commander  bulk operations 
>>> on tiddlers
>>> TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki 
>>> trashbin tool
>>> TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
>>> bookmarking tool
>>> TW-Todolist  organize, 
>>> prioritize, and plan your work
>>>
>>> https://github.com/kookma
>>>
>>>

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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

[Mohammad]

Hi David,
 I assume other language shall be installed on demand!
I have downloaded the latest empty.html 
from https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/

*These are some facts*

$:/core
has 2047 tiddlers and occupies around *1781 kb*

Listing all tiddlers with language word in their title using advanced 
search [all[shadows]prefix[$:/]search:title[language]]   results in 
965 tiddlers and they are *115 kb* (I am not sure how part of these 
tiddlers can be distributed separately as language pack)

There is two themes distributed with empty.html
1. Vanilla: *73.5 kb*
2. Snowwhite: *3 kb* 

There are 16 palettes in $:/core which occupies *66 kb*

Best wishes
Mohammad

On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 5:00:17 PM UTC+3:30 David Gifford wrote:

> One thing that takes up space is the set of language tiddlers for 
> translating to other languages. English-speakers don't need those, usually. 
> What if those could be a plugin? Or else an English-only version stripped 
> of those tiddlers? Feels arrogant and colonial even mentioning it. I only 
> mention it as one area where TiddlyWiki could be at least a little lighter.
>
> On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 1:00:21 AM UTC-6 Mohammad wrote:
>
>> Tiddlywiki is rapidly improving and you can see great features in the 
>> recent releases. 
>> From 2.1.17+ amazing features have been added to Tiddlywiki! One question 
>> is about the size of empty.html (the virgin Tiddlywiki). See the below table
>>
>> Release   Size (kb)
>> 5.1.12   1820
>> 5.1.15   2025
>> 5.1.17   2033
>> 5.1.19   2153
>> 5.1.21   2235
>> 5.1.22   2197
>> 5.1.12   2282
>>
>> While I love the new features, but, how big a virgin Tiddlywiki  can be? 
>> Assuming many users work with single file mode and using different 
>> Tiddlywiki for different purposes, I think we should set a maximum size, 
>> before going to have bigger empty.html
>>
>>
>> Suggestions
>> *A. Use official plugins*
>> 1. Keep the core as light as possible, go down to 1MB size (strip 
>> everything extra)
>> 2. Put extra features in official plugins
>>
>> *B. Start a new generation *
>> 1.Release TW 5.2 with minimum size core (include only essential part)
>> 2. Leave all backward compatibility to Tiddlywiki 5.1.xx
>> 3. Stop developing 5.1.xx and only release bug fixes
>>
>> If Jeremy can go for a new generation of Tiddlywiki, I may also suggest
>> 1. Sweep the core from all duplicated codes and those retained backward 
>> compatibility and leave them for 5.1.xx
>> 2. Rethink about filters and implement using the more versatile approach, 
>> like those are going on in GitHub (e.g. Saq proposal for multi input 
>> filters)
>> 3. Use flexible switchable page layout
>> 4. Think for a cleaner scripting (remove all duplication, improved 
>> grammar, ... there is a lot of good discussions in the forum and GitHub)
>> 5. Think of a new name (re-branding)
>> 6. ...
>>
>> I am sure people can suggest more here
>>
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Mohammad
>>
>> TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
>> solutions in Tiddlywiki
>> TW-Commander  bulk operations on 
>> tiddlers
>> TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki 
>> trashbin tool
>> TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
>> bookmarking tool
>> TW-Todolist  organize, 
>> prioritize, and plan your work
>>
>> https://github.com/kookma
>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

What makes you think that TW *can* be stripped down?

TW was *born* overweight, compared to TWC.

My guess is that the reason TW5 is so much bigger, is that so much of the 
core is written in wikitext instead of javascript. This makes TW5 
extensible, but also bulkier.

On Monday, November 2, 2020 at 11:00:21 PM UTC-8, Mohammad wrote:
>
> Tiddlywiki is rapidly improving and you can see great features in the 
> recent releases. 
> From 2.1.17+ amazing features have been added to Tiddlywiki! One question 
> is about the size of empty.html (the virgin Tiddlywiki). See the below table
>
> Release   Size (kb)
> 5.1.12   1820
> 5.1.15   2025
> 5.1.17   2033
> 5.1.19   2153
> 5.1.21   2235
> 5.1.22   2197
> 5.1.12   2282
>
> While I love the new features, but, how big a virgin Tiddlywiki  can be? 
> Assuming many users work with single file mode and using different 
> Tiddlywiki for different purposes, I think we should set a maximum size, 
> before going to have bigger empty.html
>
>
> Suggestions
> *A. Use official plugins*
> 1. Keep the core as light as possible, go down to 1MB size (strip 
> everything extra)
> 2. Put extra features in official plugins
>
> *B. Start a new generation *
> 1.Release TW 5.2 with minimum size core (include only essential part)
> 2. Leave all backward compatibility to Tiddlywiki 5.1.xx
> 3. Stop developing 5.1.xx and only release bug fixes
>
> If Jeremy can go for a new generation of Tiddlywiki, I may also suggest
> 1. Sweep the core from all duplicated codes and those retained backward 
> compatibility and leave them for 5.1.xx
> 2. Rethink about filters and implement using the more versatile approach, 
> like those are going on in GitHub (e.g. Saq proposal for multi input 
> filters)
> 3. Use flexible switchable page layout
> 4. Think for a cleaner scripting (remove all duplication, improved 
> grammar, ... there is a lot of good discussions in the forum and GitHub)
> 5. Think of a new name (re-branding)
> 6. ...
>
> I am sure people can suggest more here
>
>
> Best wishes
> Mohammad
>
> TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
> solutions in Tiddlywiki
> TW-Commander  bulk operations on 
> tiddlers
> TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki trashbin 
> tool
> TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
> bookmarking tool
> TW-Todolist  organize, prioritize, 
> and plan your work
>
> https://github.com/kookma
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

[David Gifford]

One thing that takes up space is the set of language tiddlers for 
translating to other languages. English-speakers don't need those, usually. 
What if those could be a plugin? Or else an English-only version stripped 
of those tiddlers? Feels arrogant and colonial even mentioning it. I only 
mention it as one area where TiddlyWiki could be at least a little lighter.

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 1:00:21 AM UTC-6 Mohammad wrote:

> Tiddlywiki is rapidly improving and you can see great features in the 
> recent releases. 
> From 2.1.17+ amazing features have been added to Tiddlywiki! One question 
> is about the size of empty.html (the virgin Tiddlywiki). See the below table
>
> Release   Size (kb)
> 5.1.12   1820
> 5.1.15   2025
> 5.1.17   2033
> 5.1.19   2153
> 5.1.21   2235
> 5.1.22   2197
> 5.1.12   2282
>
> While I love the new features, but, how big a virgin Tiddlywiki  can be? 
> Assuming many users work with single file mode and using different 
> Tiddlywiki for different purposes, I think we should set a maximum size, 
> before going to have bigger empty.html
>
>
> Suggestions
> *A. Use official plugins*
> 1. Keep the core as light as possible, go down to 1MB size (strip 
> everything extra)
> 2. Put extra features in official plugins
>
> *B. Start a new generation *
> 1.Release TW 5.2 with minimum size core (include only essential part)
> 2. Leave all backward compatibility to Tiddlywiki 5.1.xx
> 3. Stop developing 5.1.xx and only release bug fixes
>
> If Jeremy can go for a new generation of Tiddlywiki, I may also suggest
> 1. Sweep the core from all duplicated codes and those retained backward 
> compatibility and leave them for 5.1.xx
> 2. Rethink about filters and implement using the more versatile approach, 
> like those are going on in GitHub (e.g. Saq proposal for multi input 
> filters)
> 3. Use flexible switchable page layout
> 4. Think for a cleaner scripting (remove all duplication, improved 
> grammar, ... there is a lot of good discussions in the forum and GitHub)
> 5. Think of a new name (re-branding)
> 6. ...
>
> I am sure people can suggest more here
>
>
> Best wishes
> Mohammad
>
> TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
> solutions in Tiddlywiki
> TW-Commander  bulk operations on 
> tiddlers
> TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki trashbin 
> tool
> TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
> bookmarking tool
> TW-Todolist  organize, prioritize, 
> and plan your work
>
> https://github.com/kookma
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

[Mohammad]

Hi Charlie,

Thank you. Well having a stripped out core as a clean light empty.html 
gives more flexibility to developer to create custom editions with many 
customization and keep it still light for sending it through email.

Best wishes
Mohammad

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 6:28:40 PM UTC+3:30 Charlie Veniot wrote:

> I'm an instant fan of your thoughts.
>
> Your post makes me think of Linux  (Tiny Core Linux 
>  and, even more so, the stripped-down version: 
> Micro Core Linux.)  It would be neat for TiddlyWiki to have a Debian-like 
> repository  and something akin to a 
> package manager.
>
> Yeah, I dream kind of grandiose...
>
> On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 3:00:21 AM UTC-4 Mohammad wrote:
>
>> Tiddlywiki is rapidly improving and you can see great features in the 
>> recent releases. 
>> From 2.1.17+ amazing features have been added to Tiddlywiki! One question 
>> is about the size of empty.html (the virgin Tiddlywiki). See the below table
>>
>> Release   Size (kb)
>> 5.1.12   1820
>> 5.1.15   2025
>> 5.1.17   2033
>> 5.1.19   2153
>> 5.1.21   2235
>> 5.1.22   2197
>> 5.1.12   2282
>>
>> While I love the new features, but, how big a virgin Tiddlywiki  can be? 
>> Assuming many users work with single file mode and using different 
>> Tiddlywiki for different purposes, I think we should set a maximum size, 
>> before going to have bigger empty.html
>>
>>
>> Suggestions
>> *A. Use official plugins*
>> 1. Keep the core as light as possible, go down to 1MB size (strip 
>> everything extra)
>> 2. Put extra features in official plugins
>>
>> *B. Start a new generation *
>> 1.Release TW 5.2 with minimum size core (include only essential part)
>> 2. Leave all backward compatibility to Tiddlywiki 5.1.xx
>> 3. Stop developing 5.1.xx and only release bug fixes
>>
>> If Jeremy can go for a new generation of Tiddlywiki, I may also suggest
>> 1. Sweep the core from all duplicated codes and those retained backward 
>> compatibility and leave them for 5.1.xx
>> 2. Rethink about filters and implement using the more versatile approach, 
>> like those are going on in GitHub (e.g. Saq proposal for multi input 
>> filters)
>> 3. Use flexible switchable page layout
>> 4. Think for a cleaner scripting (remove all duplication, improved 
>> grammar, ... there is a lot of good discussions in the forum and GitHub)
>> 5. Think of a new name (re-branding)
>> 6. ...
>>
>> I am sure people can suggest more here
>>
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Mohammad
>>
>> TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
>> solutions in Tiddlywiki
>> TW-Commander  bulk operations on 
>> tiddlers
>> TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki 
>> trashbin tool
>> TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
>> bookmarking tool
>> TW-Todolist  organize, 
>> prioritize, and plan your work
>>
>> https://github.com/kookma
>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

[Mohammad]

Hi Ste,

 Many thanks for your kind words. 
I like to give a real example. Fortran is a very old language and still in 
progress in 2020 and its latest standard 202x was released ( first draft ) 
a few months ago ago.
Fortran is very popular in the scientific community when it comes to high 
performance computation and number crunching. Its 2020 compiler (support 
Fortran standard 2018) can compile and run the code back to 1970. There are 
many deprecated features, by default compiler uses the recent standards but 
there are compiler switches to tell compiler to compile a legacy code with 
many deprecated rules.

What I propose for Tiddlywiki is like Fortran. The core can support most of 
the legacy tiddlers in TW5 but the TW 5.2.xx by default works based on new 
clean and light core and does not support deprecated rules. So what people 
can do if they have legacy tiddlers, plugins, ... in new TW 5.2.xx?
Like Fortran which has compiler switches, TW 5.2.xx can have an official 
plugin e.g. backwardcompatibility plugin which can be installed on demand 
and support all TW 5.x.yy
So while TW 5.2.xx is kept light, clean and stripped out and push users to 
use the new core which support good scripting styles (we can say new TW 
standards) , it has options (plugin) to simply used and support all legacy 
things (tiddlers, plugins, themes,...)


So by default TW 5.2.xx is based on stripped out, clean, minimal core BUT 
users have option to install official backwardcompatibility plugin(s) to 
work with all old things.


Best wishes
Mohammad

TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
solutions in Tiddlywiki
TW-Commander  bulk operations on 
tiddlers
TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki trashbin 
tool
TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
bookmarking tool
TW-Todolist  organize, prioritize, 
and plan your work

https://github.com/kookma

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 6:50:47 PM UTC+3:30 Ste wrote:

> Welcome back  Mohammad!
> Diving in with some heavyweight thoughts!
> Fit tiddlywiki on a floppy!...(I found some in an old lap top bag the 
> other daynone of my students knew what it was.)
> I've not been a party to the dev/ github discussions but as much as new 
> and shiny appeals, losing say, tidgraph...NO.  But then my existing 
> wiki isn't going anywhere I guess (at least now I have a backup from 
> tiddlyspot!).
> Or would it be a case of SOME things breaking, SOME things still working?  
> How radical an overhaul is it?
> Tiddlywiki classic, 5.1-classic and shiny...hmmm
>
> Ste
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, 3 November 2020 at 14:58:40 UTC Charlie Veniot wrote:
>
>> I'm an instant fan of your thoughts.
>>
>> Your post makes me think of Linux  (Tiny Core Linux 
>>  and, even more so, the stripped-down 
>> version: Micro Core Linux.)  It would be neat for TiddlyWiki to have a 
>> Debian-like 
>> repository  and something akin to a 
>> package manager.
>>
>> Yeah, I dream kind of grandiose...
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 3:00:21 AM UTC-4 Mohammad wrote:
>>
>>> Tiddlywiki is rapidly improving and you can see great features in the 
>>> recent releases. 
>>> From 2.1.17+ amazing features have been added to Tiddlywiki! One 
>>> question is about the size of empty.html (the virgin Tiddlywiki). See the 
>>> below table
>>>
>>> Release   Size (kb)
>>> 5.1.12   1820
>>> 5.1.15   2025
>>> 5.1.17   2033
>>> 5.1.19   2153
>>> 5.1.21   2235
>>> 5.1.22   2197
>>> 5.1.12   2282
>>>
>>> While I love the new features, but, how big a virgin Tiddlywiki  can be? 
>>> Assuming many users work with single file mode and using different 
>>> Tiddlywiki for different purposes, I think we should set a maximum size, 
>>> before going to have bigger empty.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Suggestions
>>> *A. Use official plugins*
>>> 1. Keep the core as light as possible, go down to 1MB size (strip 
>>> everything extra)
>>> 2. Put extra features in official plugins
>>>
>>> *B. Start a new generation *
>>> 1.Release TW 5.2 with minimum size core (include only essential part)
>>> 2. Leave all backward compatibility to Tiddlywiki 5.1.xx
>>> 3. Stop developing 5.1.xx and only release bug fixes
>>>
>>> If Jeremy can go for a new generation of Tiddlywiki, I may also suggest
>>> 1. Sweep the core from all duplicated codes and those retained backward 
>>> compatibility and leave them for 5.1.xx
>>> 2. Rethink about filters and implement using the more versatile 
>>> approach, like those are going on in GitHub (e.g. Saq proposal for multi 
>>> input filters)
>>> 3. Use flexible switchable page layout
>>> 4. Think for a cleaner scripting (remove all duplication, improved 
>>> grammar, ... there is a lot of good discussions in the forum and GitHub)
>>> 5. Think of a new name (re-branding)
>>> 6. ...
>>>
>>

[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

[Mohammad]

Hi Tones,
 That is quite true and I see your efforts in this regard. I totally agree 
with you, having some *starter edition* with enough plugins, table of 
content, themes, palettes, ...
 The empty.html as described by Josiah (the virgin edition) should be 
available for experienced users and for creating other editions.

I myself distribute a customized edition to my graduate students which 
contains: empty.html + commander + shiraz + utility + favorites + 
trashbin + tinyTodo + relink + jighlight.js + katex + codemirror.
They are happy with that. We use tag very carefully and try to have one 
line at the end of tiddler body as (keywords: list of related keywords)
e use heavily from 
- sidebar table of content
- tiddler menu bar info (for references, fields, ...)
- tag pill to find other tiddlers in that category


Best wishes
Mohammad

TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
solutions in Tiddlywiki
TW-Commander  bulk operations on 
tiddlers
TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki trashbin 
tool
TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
bookmarking tool
TW-Todolist  organize, prioritize, 
and plan your work

https://github.com/kookma

On Wednesday, November 4, 2020 at 12:56:12 AM UTC+3:30 TW Tones wrote:

> Mohammad et al,
>
> I am all for a minimum tiddlywiki being freely available and empty.html 
> has provided this, perhaps some of you suggestions can be moved into it. 
> However as I have stated a number of times empty.html is for people who 
> know what they are doing, building from a base. It is not a good starting 
> place for new users but it is the first download available to new users. 
>
> Especially in functionality was reduced for space in empty.html but 
> already I think we should have a "standard edition", with a little more 
> functionality for users to help them be productive sooner.
>
> It should be quite easy to document, even have a plugin that "reduces" an 
> empty or standard wiki to a minimalist one so perhaps that is what we 
> should use not another edition?
>
> Regards
> Tones
>
>
> On Tuesday, 3 November 2020 18:00:21 UTC+11, Mohammad wrote:
>>
>> Tiddlywiki is rapidly improving and you can see great features in the 
>> recent releases. 
>> From 2.1.17+ amazing features have been added to Tiddlywiki! One question 
>> is about the size of empty.html (the virgin Tiddlywiki). See the below table
>>
>> Release   Size (kb)
>> 5.1.12   1820
>> 5.1.15   2025
>> 5.1.17   2033
>> 5.1.19   2153
>> 5.1.21   2235
>> 5.1.22   2197
>> 5.1.12   2282
>>
>> While I love the new features, but, how big a virgin Tiddlywiki  can be? 
>> Assuming many users work with single file mode and using different 
>> Tiddlywiki for different purposes, I think we should set a maximum size, 
>> before going to have bigger empty.html
>>
>>
>> Suggestions
>> *A. Use official plugins*
>> 1. Keep the core as light as possible, go down to 1MB size (strip 
>> everything extra)
>> 2. Put extra features in official plugins
>>
>> *B. Start a new generation *
>> 1.Release TW 5.2 with minimum size core (include only essential part)
>> 2. Leave all backward compatibility to Tiddlywiki 5.1.xx
>> 3. Stop developing 5.1.xx and only release bug fixes
>>
>> If Jeremy can go for a new generation of Tiddlywiki, I may also suggest
>> 1. Sweep the core from all duplicated codes and those retained backward 
>> compatibility and leave them for 5.1.xx
>> 2. Rethink about filters and implement using the more versatile approach, 
>> like those are going on in GitHub (e.g. Saq proposal for multi input 
>> filters)
>> 3. Use flexible switchable page layout
>> 4. Think for a cleaner scripting (remove all duplication, improved 
>> grammar, ... there is a lot of good discussions in the forum and GitHub)
>> 5. Think of a new name (re-branding)
>> 6. ...
>>
>> I am sure people can suggest more here
>>
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Mohammad
>>
>> TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
>> solutions in Tiddlywiki
>> TW-Commander  bulk operations on 
>> tiddlers
>> TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki 
>> trashbin tool
>> TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
>> bookmarking tool
>> TW-Todolist  organize, 
>> prioritize, and plan your work
>>
>> https://github.com/kookma
>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

[TW Tones]

Mohammad et al,

I am all for a minimum tiddlywiki being freely available and empty.html has 
provided this, perhaps some of you suggestions can be moved into it. 
However as I have stated a number of times empty.html is for people who 
know what they are doing, building from a base. It is not a good starting 
place for new users but it is the first download available to new users. 

Especially in functionality was reduced for space in empty.html but already 
I think we should have a "standard edition", with a little more 
functionality for users to help them be productive sooner.

It should be quite easy to document, even have a plugin that "reduces" an 
empty or standard wiki to a minimalist one so perhaps that is what we 
should use not another edition?

Regards
Tones

On Tuesday, 3 November 2020 18:00:21 UTC+11, Mohammad wrote:
>
> Tiddlywiki is rapidly improving and you can see great features in the 
> recent releases. 
> From 2.1.17+ amazing features have been added to Tiddlywiki! One question 
> is about the size of empty.html (the virgin Tiddlywiki). See the below table
>
> Release   Size (kb)
> 5.1.12   1820
> 5.1.15   2025
> 5.1.17   2033
> 5.1.19   2153
> 5.1.21   2235
> 5.1.22   2197
> 5.1.12   2282
>
> While I love the new features, but, how big a virgin Tiddlywiki  can be? 
> Assuming many users work with single file mode and using different 
> Tiddlywiki for different purposes, I think we should set a maximum size, 
> before going to have bigger empty.html
>
>
> Suggestions
> *A. Use official plugins*
> 1. Keep the core as light as possible, go down to 1MB size (strip 
> everything extra)
> 2. Put extra features in official plugins
>
> *B. Start a new generation *
> 1.Release TW 5.2 with minimum size core (include only essential part)
> 2. Leave all backward compatibility to Tiddlywiki 5.1.xx
> 3. Stop developing 5.1.xx and only release bug fixes
>
> If Jeremy can go for a new generation of Tiddlywiki, I may also suggest
> 1. Sweep the core from all duplicated codes and those retained backward 
> compatibility and leave them for 5.1.xx
> 2. Rethink about filters and implement using the more versatile approach, 
> like those are going on in GitHub (e.g. Saq proposal for multi input 
> filters)
> 3. Use flexible switchable page layout
> 4. Think for a cleaner scripting (remove all duplication, improved 
> grammar, ... there is a lot of good discussions in the forum and GitHub)
> 5. Think of a new name (re-branding)
> 6. ...
>
> I am sure people can suggest more here
>
>
> Best wishes
> Mohammad
>
> TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
> solutions in Tiddlywiki
> TW-Commander  bulk operations on 
> tiddlers
> TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki trashbin 
> tool
> TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
> bookmarking tool
> TW-Todolist  organize, prioritize, 
> and plan your work
>
> https://github.com/kookma
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

[Ste]

Welcome back  Mohammad!
Diving in with some heavyweight thoughts!
Fit tiddlywiki on a floppy!...(I found some in an old lap top bag the other 
daynone of my students knew what it was.)
I've not been a party to the dev/ github discussions but as much as new and 
shiny appeals, losing say, tidgraph...NO.  But then my existing wiki 
isn't going anywhere I guess (at least now I have a backup from 
tiddlyspot!).
Or would it be a case of SOME things breaking, SOME things still working?  
How radical an overhaul is it?
Tiddlywiki classic, 5.1-classic and shiny...hmmm

Ste



On Tuesday, 3 November 2020 at 14:58:40 UTC Charlie Veniot wrote:

> I'm an instant fan of your thoughts.
>
> Your post makes me think of Linux  (Tiny Core Linux 
>  and, even more so, the stripped-down version: 
> Micro Core Linux.)  It would be neat for TiddlyWiki to have a Debian-like 
> repository  and something akin to a 
> package manager.
>
> Yeah, I dream kind of grandiose...
>
> On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 3:00:21 AM UTC-4 Mohammad wrote:
>
>> Tiddlywiki is rapidly improving and you can see great features in the 
>> recent releases. 
>> From 2.1.17+ amazing features have been added to Tiddlywiki! One question 
>> is about the size of empty.html (the virgin Tiddlywiki). See the below table
>>
>> Release   Size (kb)
>> 5.1.12   1820
>> 5.1.15   2025
>> 5.1.17   2033
>> 5.1.19   2153
>> 5.1.21   2235
>> 5.1.22   2197
>> 5.1.12   2282
>>
>> While I love the new features, but, how big a virgin Tiddlywiki  can be? 
>> Assuming many users work with single file mode and using different 
>> Tiddlywiki for different purposes, I think we should set a maximum size, 
>> before going to have bigger empty.html
>>
>>
>> Suggestions
>> *A. Use official plugins*
>> 1. Keep the core as light as possible, go down to 1MB size (strip 
>> everything extra)
>> 2. Put extra features in official plugins
>>
>> *B. Start a new generation *
>> 1.Release TW 5.2 with minimum size core (include only essential part)
>> 2. Leave all backward compatibility to Tiddlywiki 5.1.xx
>> 3. Stop developing 5.1.xx and only release bug fixes
>>
>> If Jeremy can go for a new generation of Tiddlywiki, I may also suggest
>> 1. Sweep the core from all duplicated codes and those retained backward 
>> compatibility and leave them for 5.1.xx
>> 2. Rethink about filters and implement using the more versatile approach, 
>> like those are going on in GitHub (e.g. Saq proposal for multi input 
>> filters)
>> 3. Use flexible switchable page layout
>> 4. Think for a cleaner scripting (remove all duplication, improved 
>> grammar, ... there is a lot of good discussions in the forum and GitHub)
>> 5. Think of a new name (re-branding)
>> 6. ...
>>
>> I am sure people can suggest more here
>>
>>
>> Best wishes
>> Mohammad
>>
>> TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
>> solutions in Tiddlywiki
>> TW-Commander  bulk operations on 
>> tiddlers
>> TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki 
>> trashbin tool
>> TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
>> bookmarking tool
>> TW-Todolist  organize, 
>> prioritize, and plan your work
>>
>> https://github.com/kookma
>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Tiddlywiki Empty: The size empty.html

[Charlie Veniot]

I'm an instant fan of your thoughts.

Your post makes me think of Linux  (Tiny Core Linux 
 and, even more so, the stripped-down version: 
Micro Core Linux.)  It would be neat for TiddlyWiki to have a Debian-like 
repository  and something akin to a 
package manager.

Yeah, I dream kind of grandiose...

On Tuesday, November 3, 2020 at 3:00:21 AM UTC-4 Mohammad wrote:

> Tiddlywiki is rapidly improving and you can see great features in the 
> recent releases. 
> From 2.1.17+ amazing features have been added to Tiddlywiki! One question 
> is about the size of empty.html (the virgin Tiddlywiki). See the below table
>
> Release   Size (kb)
> 5.1.12   1820
> 5.1.15   2025
> 5.1.17   2033
> 5.1.19   2153
> 5.1.21   2235
> 5.1.22   2197
> 5.1.12   2282
>
> While I love the new features, but, how big a virgin Tiddlywiki  can be? 
> Assuming many users work with single file mode and using different 
> Tiddlywiki for different purposes, I think we should set a maximum size, 
> before going to have bigger empty.html
>
>
> Suggestions
> *A. Use official plugins*
> 1. Keep the core as light as possible, go down to 1MB size (strip 
> everything extra)
> 2. Put extra features in official plugins
>
> *B. Start a new generation *
> 1.Release TW 5.2 with minimum size core (include only essential part)
> 2. Leave all backward compatibility to Tiddlywiki 5.1.xx
> 3. Stop developing 5.1.xx and only release bug fixes
>
> If Jeremy can go for a new generation of Tiddlywiki, I may also suggest
> 1. Sweep the core from all duplicated codes and those retained backward 
> compatibility and leave them for 5.1.xx
> 2. Rethink about filters and implement using the more versatile approach, 
> like those are going on in GitHub (e.g. Saq proposal for multi input 
> filters)
> 3. Use flexible switchable page layout
> 4. Think for a cleaner scripting (remove all duplication, improved 
> grammar, ... there is a lot of good discussions in the forum and GitHub)
> 5. Think of a new name (re-branding)
> 6. ...
>
> I am sure people can suggest more here
>
>
> Best wishes
> Mohammad
>
> TW-Scripts  codes, macros, and 
> solutions in Tiddlywiki
> TW-Commander  bulk operations on 
> tiddlers
> TW-Trashbin  a Tiddlywiki trashbin 
> tool
> TW-Favorites  a favorites and 
> bookmarking tool
> TW-Todolist  organize, prioritize, 
> and plan your work
>
> https://github.com/kookma
>
>

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