Re:[tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 13:30:05 -0600, Michael Smith wrote: > Mr. Palij. *Mister* Palij? Okay, Mr. Smith. Just be careful with those wontons. They can take an eye out. -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.edu > We have had conversations about this before. I have not included the > original statements to which you responded, but I have responded to > some of your comments (you will find them in brackets). Those to which > I have not responded suffer from the same weaknesses. Please take note > of them they are important to your potential career as a psychologist. > >> This is not a new point but your handling of it is "inelegant". > (References?) > >> This is a broad brush which ignores that many researchers are >> in fact self-critical and do acknowledge other viewpoints. > (Again, References please Mr. Palij) > >>A researcher who believes that mental >> representations are analog will ask different questions that a >> researcher who assumes that all mental representations are >> digital. For example, if one is concerned with whether 2-D >> and 3-D visual mental images have different psychological >> properties will probably find much more relevant research >> among other analog researchers (e.g., Roger Shepard, Stephen >> Kosslyn) than among digital/abstract researchers (e.g., Zenon >> Pylyshyn). > (It isn't enough to just include a researcher's name: Please check the > latest APA style guide.) > >>In either cases, because the assumptions and predictions >> are different, using references in a "compatible" research area >> is more likely to occur than using references in an incompatible >> research area even though one is familiar with it. This might >> seem like a "confirmation bias" but it is not. > (Again, Mr. Palij. It is not enough simply to state your opinion about > what constitutes "confirmation bias", you must provide relevant > references!) > >> Methinks thou oversimplies things but I don't have the time right now to >> explain it to you. > (This is a poor conclusion Mr. Palij, and the wording is colloquial). > > Your entire response suffers from the same overall weaknesses. That > is, a wonton disregard for proper citation and the presentation of > your opinion for established fact. > > Please see me after class. > > -- Dr. M. A. Smith > > -- > > Subject: Link to the TIPS archive > From: "Michael Britt" > Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 15:45:27 -0400 > X-Message-Number: 9 > > I'm sorry to ask this and I promise to write this down as soon as I get > the info: what is the link to the TIPS archive? > > Thanks, > > Michael > > > -- > Michael Britt, Ph.D. > Host of The Psych Files podcast > www.thepsychfiles.com > mich...@thepsychfiles.com > > > -- > > Subject: Re: Spanking - an idea that won't go away > From: Don Allen > Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 21:44:23 +0000 (GMT) > X-Message-Number: 10 > > "That is, a wonton disregard for proper citation" > > Is a "wonton disregard" when you turn down an offer of soup at a chinese > restaurant? ;o) > > -Don. > > - Original Message - > From: Michael Smith > Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009 12:30 pm > Subject: Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away > To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" > >> Mr. Palij. >> >> We have had conversations about this before. I have not included the >> original statements to which you responded, but I have responded to >> some of your comments (you will find them in brackets). Those to which >> I have not responded suffer from the same weaknesses. Please >> take note >> of them they are important to your potential career as a psychologist. >> >> > This is not a new point but your handling of it is "inelegant". >> (References?) >> >> > This is a broad brush which ignores that many researchers are >> > in fact self-critical and do acknowledge other viewpoints. >> (Again, References please Mr. Palij) >> >> >A researcher who believes that mental >> > representations are analog will ask different questions that a >> > researcher who assumes that all mental representations are >> > digital. For example, if one is concerned with whether 2-D >> > and 3-D visual mental images have different psychological >> > properties will probably find much more rel
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
lol Yes! --Mike On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Don Allen wrote: > "That is, a wonton disregard for proper citation" > > Is a "wonton disregard" when you turn down an offer of soup at a chinese > restaurant? ;o) > > -Don. > > - Original Message - > From: Michael Smith > Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009 12:30 pm > Subject: Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away > To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" > >> Mr. Palij. >> >> We have had conversations about this before. I have not included the >> original statements to which you responded, but I have responded to >> some of your comments (you will find them in brackets). Those to which >> I have not responded suffer from the same weaknesses. Please >> take note >> of them they are important to your potential career as a psychologist. >> >> > This is not a new point but your handling of it is "inelegant". >> (References?) >> >> > This is a broad brush which ignores that many researchers are >> > in fact self-critical and do acknowledge other viewpoints. >> (Again, References please Mr. Palij) >> >> >A researcher who believes that mental >> > representations are analog will ask different questions that a >> > researcher who assumes that all mental representations are >> > digital. For example, if one is concerned with whether 2-D >> > and 3-D visual mental images have different psychological >> > properties will probably find much more relevant research >> > among other analog researchers (e.g., Roger Shepard, Stephen >> > Kosslyn) than among digital/abstract researchers (e.g., Zenon >> > Pylyshyn). >> (It isn't enough to just include a researcher's name: Please >> check the >> latest APA style guide.) >> >> >In either cases, because the assumptions and predictions >> > are different, using references in a "compatible" research area >> > is more likely to occur than using references in an incompatible >> > research area even though one is familiar with it. This might >> > seem like a "confirmation bias" but it is not. >> (Again, Mr. Palij. It is not enough simply to state your opinion about >> what constitutes "confirmation bias", you must provide relevant >> references!) >> >> > Methinks thou oversimplies things but I don't have the time >> right now to explain it to you. >> (This is a poor conclusion Mr. Palij, and the wording is colloquial). >> >> Your entire response suffers from the same overall weaknesses. That >> is, a wonton disregard for proper citation and the presentation of >> your opinion for established fact. >> >> Please see me after class. >> >> -- Dr. M. A. Smith >> >> --- >> To make changes to your subscription contact: >> >> Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) >> > > Don Allen > Dept. of Psychology > Langara College > 100 W. 49th Ave. > Vancouver, B.C. > Canada V5Y 2Z6 > Phone: 604-323-5871 > > > --- > To make changes to your subscription contact: > > Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) > --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
"That is, a wonton disregard for proper citation" Is a "wonton disregard" when you turn down an offer of soup at a chinese restaurant? ;o) -Don. - Original Message - From: Michael Smith Date: Wednesday, September 2, 2009 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" > Mr. Palij. > > We have had conversations about this before. I have not included the > original statements to which you responded, but I have responded to > some of your comments (you will find them in brackets). Those to which > I have not responded suffer from the same weaknesses. Please > take note > of them they are important to your potential career as a psychologist. > > > This is not a new point but your handling of it is "inelegant". > (References?) > > > This is a broad brush which ignores that many researchers are > > in fact self-critical and do acknowledge other viewpoints. > (Again, References please Mr. Palij) > > >A researcher who believes that mental > > representations are analog will ask different questions that a > > researcher who assumes that all mental representations are > > digital. For example, if one is concerned with whether 2-D > > and 3-D visual mental images have different psychological > > properties will probably find much more relevant research > > among other analog researchers (e.g., Roger Shepard, Stephen > > Kosslyn) than among digital/abstract researchers (e.g., Zenon > > Pylyshyn). > (It isn't enough to just include a researcher's name: Please > check the > latest APA style guide.) > > >In either cases, because the assumptions and predictions > > are different, using references in a "compatible" research area > > is more likely to occur than using references in an incompatible > > research area even though one is familiar with it. This might > > seem like a "confirmation bias" but it is not. > (Again, Mr. Palij. It is not enough simply to state your opinion about > what constitutes "confirmation bias", you must provide relevant > references!) > > > Methinks thou oversimplies things but I don't have the time > right now to explain it to you. > (This is a poor conclusion Mr. Palij, and the wording is colloquial). > > Your entire response suffers from the same overall weaknesses. That > is, a wonton disregard for proper citation and the presentation of > your opinion for established fact. > > Please see me after class. > > -- Dr. M. A. Smith > > --- > To make changes to your subscription contact: > > Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) > Don Allen Dept. of Psychology Langara College 100 W. 49th Ave. Vancouver, B.C. Canada V5Y 2Z6 Phone: 604-323-5871 --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
Mr. Palij. We have had conversations about this before. I have not included the original statements to which you responded, but I have responded to some of your comments (you will find them in brackets). Those to which I have not responded suffer from the same weaknesses. Please take note of them they are important to your potential career as a psychologist. > This is not a new point but your handling of it is "inelegant". (References?) > This is a broad brush which ignores that many researchers are > in fact self-critical and do acknowledge other viewpoints. (Again, References please Mr. Palij) >A researcher who believes that mental > representations are analog will ask different questions that a > researcher who assumes that all mental representations are > digital. For example, if one is concerned with whether 2-D > and 3-D visual mental images have different psychological > properties will probably find much more relevant research > among other analog researchers (e.g., Roger Shepard, Stephen > Kosslyn) than among digital/abstract researchers (e.g., Zenon > Pylyshyn). (It isn't enough to just include a researcher's name: Please check the latest APA style guide.) >In either cases, because the assumptions and predictions > are different, using references in a "compatible" research area > is more likely to occur than using references in an incompatible > research area even though one is familiar with it. This might > seem like a "confirmation bias" but it is not. (Again, Mr. Palij. It is not enough simply to state your opinion about what constitutes "confirmation bias", you must provide relevant references!) > Methinks thou oversimplies things but I don't have the time right now to > explain it to you. (This is a poor conclusion Mr. Palij, and the wording is colloquial). Your entire response suffers from the same overall weaknesses. That is, a wonton disregard for proper citation and the presentation of your opinion for established fact. Please see me after class. -- Dr. M. A. Smith --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 09:34:13 -0700, Michael Smith wrote: >Mike Palij wrote another extended response. Man. Are you retired? lol. No, that's Stephen Black's job. I'm teaching 3 courses this semester including a lab course. I'm just thoughtful, analytical, and verbose. >My main point was that scientists no less than anyone else have >biases. This is not a new point but your handling of it is "inelegant". >And, like everyone else, tend to select only the references >(which presumably contain evidence) that supports their biases. Of >course, this is not what ideally happens in science but real life >isn't that ideal. This is a broad brush which ignores that many researchers are in fact self-critical and do acknowledge other viewpoints. It should be noted that in setting up a particular research project, the hypotheses being tested will usually be constructed in the context of a particular theory and may have less relevance in other theoretical contexts. Consider the following unresolved theoretical positions: (1) Are mental representations analog (i.e., in the form of images or discrete pieces that need to be stored and retrieved) or are they digital (basically, in abstract form such as the weights in a neural network)? A researcher who believes that mental representations are analog will ask different questions that a researcher who assumes that all mental representations are digital. For example, if one is concerned with whether 2-D and 3-D visual mental images have different psychological properties will probably find much more relevant research among other analog researchers (e.g., Roger Shepard, Stephen Kosslyn) than among digital/abstract researchers (e.g., Zenon Pylyshyn). In either cases, because the assumptions and predictions are different, using references in a "compatible" research area is more likely to occur than using references in an incompatible research area even though one is familiar with it. This might seem like a "confirmation bias" but it is not. (2) What is the nature of the psychophysical law? Is the relationship between level of stimulus energy and our subjective magnitude of it a logarithmic function (i.e., Fechner's Law), a power law (i.e., Stevens' Law), or some much more complex function because we need to describe the function relating stimulus energy to subjective magnitude and a function relating subjective magnitude to response magnitude (i.e., Shepard's position)? One is likely to operate within one of these "traditions" and rely upon work in one's area but they are also likely to know the other positions (if for no other reason then having to handle reviewers comments about other perspectives). [snip] >Anyway, I am assuming that Michael Sylvester meant something >along these lines when bemoaning perhaps this kind of use of >"the reference". It's never a good idea to assume that you know what Dr. Sylvester is thinking (especially if you a a eurocentric type) or why he is doing so. An alternative explanation for "the reference" is that he can't be bothered to search the relevant literatures and databases because that would take time away from more important activities such as DJ'ing and hanging out with biker gangs. :-) >Of course, I agree, that if you are going to do science then you need >to disseminate and communicate results hence the necessity of >references. I don't think anyone would argue that references aren't >the butter of the 'bread and butter' of the scientific community. It >is just the rather uncritical and routine reliance on them that is >being contested (and suggested as being what probably happens a great >deal more than anyone cares to admit). Methinks thou oversimplies things but I don't have the time right now to explain it to you. I'll leave that to Chris Green. ;-) >Wow. I must be getting close to retirement too! In more ways than one. ;-) -Mike Palij New York university m...@nyu.edu --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
Mike Palij wrote another extended response. Man. Are you retired? lol. My main point was that scientists no less than anyone else have biases. And, like everyone else, tend to select only the references (which presumably contain evidence) that supports their biases. Of course, this is not what ideally happens in science but real life isn't that ideal. This 'confirmatory bias' is also partly a practical matter since no one has the time to review dozens to hundreds of papers on a particular topic such as the efficacy of spanking, unless it is a primary focus of their research. Rather, most will rely on the "summary" articles (from experts with their own biases) and see no obvious problems with the conclusions if it agrees with their own bias. They will tend NOT to seek out disconfirmatory evidence both because they have little time and little motivation to do so (just like everyone else). So it is in these senses that references can become an appeal to authority because the typical scientist/consumer of the information has not taken the time to carefully look at the evidence (not only the major articles, but probably not even the summary article itself). And so their confidence in the data is not warranted based on careful investigation, but is rather a result of the comfortable feeling of having one's bias "confirmed" and their confidence that Dr. Joe Blow seems to do "good work". Anyway, I am assuming that Michael Sylvester meant something along these lines when bemoaning perhaps this kind of use of "the reference". Of course, I agree, that if you are going to do science then you need to disseminate and communicate results hence the necessity of references. I don't think anyone would argue that references aren't the butter of the 'bread and butter' of the scientific community. It is just the rather uncritical and routine reliance on them that is being contested (and suggested as being what probably happens a great deal more than anyone cares to admit). Wow. I must be getting close to retirement too! --Mike --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re:[tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 19:30:19 -0600, Michael Smith wrote: Let me start with a well-known saying: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Meaning, of course, if one makes a claim that runs counter to what is generally accepted as "true" (e.g., claiming that the earth is roundish, that the sun is the center of the solar system), reasonable people will ask what is the evidence in support of such claims. Unreasonable people with sufficient power and authority may not only dismiss and ignore such claims but may also imprison or kill the persons advocating such views. Allow me to paraphrase the saying above to the following: "Even mundane claims about everyday life require extraordinary evidence because ascertaining causal relationships in real life situations cannot be done with real condifence without experimental research because mere observation will only at best suggest correlations among potentially relevant variables but will never establish causal relations" Not as pithy as the original statement but I think it covers all of the relevant issues. I would also suggest Steven Sloman's book "Causal Models" as a review about how ordinary think about causal relations, when do they get it right, and what makes them to get it wrong; see: http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Psychology/Cognitive/?view=usa&ci=0195183118 Let's move on. > Michael Sylvester said he is tired of the demand for references. lol Michael Sylvester appears to be a man of faith, he appears to accept what people say uncritically, regardless of how riciduluous they may be or inconsistent with empirical evidence they are; however, this seems to be true only if it is in agreement with his existing beliefs (i.e., a self-confirming bias). In this situation serious scholarship in form of thoroughly knowing a literature and being able to articulate positions and cite chapter and verse in support of those positions is not relevant. References are for people who don't believe that they have the "Truth" and think that they live in a probabilistic universe in contrast to those who do know the "Truth" and understand that the universe is simple and completely deterministic (at least in the confines of one's mind; what does it matter if no one else agrees with you?). > Well that's not likely to change, but I agree that you have a point. And, of course, there are the enablers. > Generally someone makes a point and provides a reference and the point > tends to be considered proven and true. This is such an extraordinary statement that I almost don't know where to start a response to it. Dr. Smith has shown a tendency for not providing references (i.e., the literature that provides the empirical support for the statements that he making), even in the simple case of providing a link to a Wikipedia entry that he is allegedly citing. Let me start by focusing on the last part of his statement "the point tends to be considered proven and true". Let me make a few comments on this: (1) If one is referring to mathematics or logic or some other formal system that relies heavily or exclusively on deductive logic, the use of the term "proof" and "true" take on certain specific definitions which are quite clear. A proof shows how a conclusion validly follows from a set of premises or assumptions which have had rules applied to them that leads one to the conclusion. The proof is true if the rules have been applied appropriatedly within their system and there are no contradictions produced within the proof. This kind of knowledge is certain and unambiguous (though one can ask questions about the appropriateness of the assumptions and the rules used; within the system as defined, however, one can be assured that one has a valid and true proof or not). (2) The intellectually careless or sloppy or ignorant might use the word "proof" not in the sense above but in as a "weasal word", that is, to give the impression that an issue has been shown to be definitively true without an examination of either the argument that serves as the basis for this claim or the relevant evidence. For example, commercials for many herbal supplements "body part extenders", and other products may make statements such as "clinical research proves it works!" without providing a cititation to the research or review of the evidence -- this is done to convery a false sense of the effective of the product being sold. The choice of "proof" and "true" is intentional because they convey a certain finality and lack of uncertainty, something that the term "evidence" does not suggest (e.g., there is a radio commercial where some "brain supplement" is being given away for free and apparent "consumers" say things like "They're giving it away for free? It must be good!" followed up by we couldn't say this if it weren't "true"). (3) Since most empirical research is an inductive reasoning activity and we typically do not have access to all relevant cases,
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
Hi Again from yesterday ... already at my limit and not even 8am! As I mentioned in another post on this topic, I tend to focus on just =3D these sorts of questions implied by the article and the kinds of evidence = =3D that would address the questions. I do NOT think that we need as teachers to have answers to questions =3D before raising and discussing them. One of my primary goals is to help = =3D students to appreciate that there are such questions and that only =3D empirical evidence can answer them. No amount of anecdotal reports would = =3D carry the same weight. Take care Jim James M. Clark Professor of Psychology 204-786-9757 204-774-4134 Fax j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca >>> Ken Steele 31-Aug-09 2:17:57 PM >>> Hi Jim: I can see why this article would generate lots of discussion. Before using this opinion piece, my first question would be: Is it true? Do black parents spank their children more than white parents? Do you have references? Ken Jim Clark wrote: > Hi > > In my culture and psych class I use an activity on spanking centered around a > short magazine piece on use of spanking by Black parents. See > > http://io.uwinnipeg.ca/~clark/teach/3050/Act07-spanking.pdf > > Take care > Jim > > > James M. Clark > Professor of Psychology > 204-786-9757 > 204-774-4134 Fax > j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
Hi I was over the limit, yesterday, so here's this ... I disagree with Michael. Field observations (unless very sophisticated) and testimonials are no substitute for the stronger forms of information gathering we call research (field observations sometimes deserve that label). There are a whole host of measurement, sampling, and design issues that students must consider in evaluating such claims as those implied by the spanking article. In addition to those I mentioned earlier, for example, there would be the need to clearly define spanking and other forms of capital punishment. There would also be sampling issues ... even if the author was right about herself and her friends, for example, are they representative of blacks in general? And what about her claim that the roots of spanking derive from slavery? If we consider other cultures that engage in spanking and they do not have a history of slavery, then it might be what Blacks and such other cultures share (rather than slavery) that is responsible for the differential behavior. The thing I try to impress on students in these discussions is that we are trying to build a complex theory (nomological network to use an older terminology) and I will often map out a crude form of the theory while we engage in these discussions (e.g., culture *> spanking *> child behavior) and consider alternative possibilities for the pathways. Thinking like a scientific psychologist involves generating such hypothetical causal networks, figuring out ways to evaluate the connections, and (most importantly) appreciating that without such research we cannot KNOW the true state of affairs. Take care Jim James M. Clark Professor of Psychology 204-786-9757 204-774-4134 Fax j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca >>> "michael sylvester" 31-Aug-09 4:25:11 PM >>> The demand for references to support statements on Tips is beginning to drive me up the wall.As if the references will give validation to statements.Baloney can still be baloney despite references.I mean to find out whether black parents spank more all what one has to do is to comparative field observations and gather testimonials. Conclusions can be very definitive that no statistical analysis is necessary. Yep,through multiple primary and secondary observations black parents do spank their kids for misbehavior and the kid may get an additional spanking by others in the hierarchical extended family. As the cross-cultural dude(in addition to other accolades) on Tips,the reason for this differential is that whites are more likely to experience "guilt" emotions and blacks the social emotion of "shame". These are correlates are connected with the presentation of the self.In other words,black parents view misbehavior as a violation of their self-ideal of proper versus improper public and family behavior.White parents are more likely to think in terms of long terms effects and hence guilt. A white parent will take a child to Toyr R Us and that child could be throwing a row of toys to the ground and that wgite woman will tell the child "Honey,why you do that? Mama loves you." This is not likely to be a response from the black parents.Interestingly enough Developmental psychologists areresponsible for invocating guilt and "vague premonitions of disaster" if parents become too disciplinary.And this was not help by Bettelheim who blamed parents' behavior for autism.And the guilt began. Black parents may still adhere to the adage of St.Paul "Spare the rod,spoil the child." Send me nothing. Michael Sylvester,PhD --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
Michael Sylvester said he is tired of the demand for references. lol Well that's not likely to change, but I agree that you have a point. Generally someone makes a point and provides a reference and the point tends to be considered proven and true. Of course the public position of almost everyone is that they don't accept the point as proven and true. But, rather, the point is neither accepted nor denied for now. And everyone will of course claim that they will check out the reference(s) -- as if that is very likely. Or even if they do get around to checking out a reference (again I think pretty unlikely unless they have a specific use for it), how many will thoroughly read and study it to find if the point made is justified? How many (much fewer to almost non-existent I think) will then go on to seek out conflicting opinions and references (and again thoroughly study those) when they already have a bias that the point is true (the example here that spanking is not effective and is indeed harmful, as all the academics know). The inclusion of a reference or two which "settles it" can be a kind of reference to authority. Again though, many will say, yes--but a reliable authority. But again, people can't know this unless they thoroughly read and study the relevant papers (and of course the opposing papers)--which is unlikely to happen. --Mike On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 3:25 PM, michael sylvester wrote: > The demand for references to support statements on Tips is beginning to > drive me up the wall.As if the references will give validation to > statements.Baloney can still be baloney despite references.I mean to find > out whether black parents > spank more all what one has to do is to comparative field observations and > gather testimonials. Conclusions can be > very definitive that no statistical analysis is necessary. > Yep,through multiple primary and secondary observations black parents do > spank their kids for misbehavior and the kid may get an additional spanking > by others in the hierarchical extended family. > As the cross-cultural dude(in addition to other accolades) on Tips,the > reason for this differential > is that whites are more likely to experience "guilt" emotions and blacks the > social emotion of "shame". These > are correlates are connected with the presentation of the self.In other > words,black parents view misbehavior as > a violation of their self-ideal of proper versus improper public and family > behavior.White parents are more likely to think in terms of > long terms effects and hence guilt. A white parent will take a child to Toyr > R Us and that child could be throwing a row of toys to the ground and that > wgite woman will tell the child "Honey,why you do that? Mama loves you." > This is not likely to be a response from the black parents.Interestingly > enough Developmental psychologists areresponsible for invocating guilt and > "vague premonitions of disaster" if parents become too disciplinary.And this > was not help by Bettelheim who > blamed parents' behavior for autism.And the guilt began. > Black parents may still adhere to the adage of St.Paul "Spare the rod,spoil > the child." > Send me nothing. > Michael Sylvester,PhD > > --- > To make changes to your subscription contact: > > Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) > --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
Helpful links and a reasoned response Stephen. I'll definitely check out these links. Appreciate it. Michael > On 31 Aug 2009 at 13:41, Michael Britt wrote: > >> In the latest episode of my podcast I interviewed the author of a >> great parenting book: Raising Children You Can Live With. Although >> the author discuss a lot of great ideas regarding how to interact with >> your child, it seems that my brief thoughts regarding the >> ineffectiveness >> of spanking is getting the most response. > > While I personally find spanking a distasteful method of child behaviour > control, that does not stop me from pointing out that the evidence > against it on scientific grounds is more equivocal than most people > realize, the anti-spanking crowd being dominant in academic circles. The > major problem is that much of the research is correlational, rending > causal conclusions moot. > > Any even-handed (open, of course) treatment of this issue should include > mention of the minority position of respected academics such as Diane > Baumrind and Robert Lazerele that "normative" spanking (which excludes > child abuse) has not been shown to be harmful to the child, and may in > some circumstances be helpful. Of course, one is free to take a moral > position on this issue (as I do), but it should not be justified by > reference to studies of uncertain scientific merit. > > See, for example > > http://www.storesonline.com/site/846699/page/907857 > and > http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/ > (bibliographies for Lazerele) > > http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bul1284580.pdf > (Baumrind/Lazerele commentary, Psychological Bulletin, 2002) > > http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/article/3518 > (Baumrind invited address to APA [press release, 2001) > > Stephen > > - > Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. > Professor of Psychology, Emeritus > Bishop's University e-mail: sbl...@ubishops.ca > 2600 College St. > Sherbrooke QC J1M 1Z7 > Canada > > Subscribe to discussion list (TIPS) for the teaching of > psychology at http://flightline.highline.edu/sfrantz/tips/ > --- > > --- > To make changes to your subscription contact: > > Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) > -- Michael Britt, Ph.D. Host of The Psych Files podcast www.thepsychfiles.com mich...@thepsychfiles.com --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
On 31 Aug 2009 at 13:41, Michael Britt wrote: > In the latest episode of my podcast I interviewed the author of a > great parenting book: Raising Children You Can Live With. Although > the author discuss a lot of great ideas regarding how to interact with > your child, it seems that my brief thoughts regarding the ineffectiveness > of spanking is getting the most response. While I personally find spanking a distasteful method of child behaviour control, that does not stop me from pointing out that the evidence against it on scientific grounds is more equivocal than most people realize, the anti-spanking crowd being dominant in academic circles. The major problem is that much of the research is correlational, rending causal conclusions moot. Any even-handed (open, of course) treatment of this issue should include mention of the minority position of respected academics such as Diane Baumrind and Robert Lazerele that "normative" spanking (which excludes child abuse) has not been shown to be harmful to the child, and may in some circumstances be helpful. Of course, one is free to take a moral position on this issue (as I do), but it should not be justified by reference to studies of uncertain scientific merit. See, for example http://www.storesonline.com/site/846699/page/907857 and http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/ (bibliographies for Lazerele) http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/bul1284580.pdf (Baumrind/Lazerele commentary, Psychological Bulletin, 2002) http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/article/3518 (Baumrind invited address to APA [press release, 2001) Stephen - Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology, Emeritus Bishop's University e-mail: sbl...@ubishops.ca 2600 College St. Sherbrooke QC J1M 1Z7 Canada Subscribe to discussion list (TIPS) for the teaching of psychology at http://flightline.highline.edu/sfrantz/tips/ --- --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
The demand for references to support statements on Tips is beginning to drive me up the wall.As if the references will give validation to statements.Baloney can still be baloney despite references.I mean to find out whether black parents spank more all what one has to do is to comparative field observations and gather testimonials. Conclusions can be very definitive that no statistical analysis is necessary. Yep,through multiple primary and secondary observations black parents do spank their kids for misbehavior and the kid may get an additional spanking by others in the hierarchical extended family. As the cross-cultural dude(in addition to other accolades) on Tips,the reason for this differential is that whites are more likely to experience "guilt" emotions and blacks the social emotion of "shame". These are correlates are connected with the presentation of the self.In other words,black parents view misbehavior as a violation of their self-ideal of proper versus improper public and family behavior.White parents are more likely to think in terms of long terms effects and hence guilt. A white parent will take a child to Toyr R Us and that child could be throwing a row of toys to the ground and that wgite woman will tell the child "Honey,why you do that? Mama loves you." This is not likely to be a response from the black parents.Interestingly enough Developmental psychologists areresponsible for invocating guilt and "vague premonitions of disaster" if parents become too disciplinary.And this was not help by Bettelheim who blamed parents' behavior for autism.And the guilt began. Black parents may still adhere to the adage of St.Paul "Spare the rod,spoil the child." Send me nothing. Michael Sylvester,PhD --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
Here are some references, some with tangential findings:1. This study finds that African-American parents are more likely to deliver "mild physical punishment" in an atmosphere of helping children be better, while Caucasian-American parents (have we ruled on the use "caucasian" yet?) say it's wrong, but when they resort to it, they're agitated: Graziano, A.M. & Hamblen, J.L. (1996). Subabusive violence in child-rearing in middle-class American families. *Pediatrics, 98,* 845-848. 2. This article interviewed African-American parents, who described their discipline tactics: Mosby, L., Rawls, A.W., Meehan, A.L., Mays, E., & Pettinari, C.J. (1999). Troubles in interracial talk about discipline: An examination of African-American child rearing narratives. *Journal of Comparative Family Studies, 30, * 489-521. I have several others, but this probably makes the clearest case for more physical discipline in African-American families during childhood (but not adolescence). It's a longitudinal study: 3. Lansford, J.E., Deater-Deckard, K., Dodge, K.E., Bates, J.E. & Pettit, G.S. (2004). Ethnic differences in the link between physical discipline and later adolescent externalizing behaviors. *Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 45,* 801-812. That's my third post for the day. Back to writing syllabi Beth Benoit Granite State College Plymouth State University New Hampshire On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Ken Steele wrote: > Hi Jim: > > I can see why this article would generate lots of discussion. > > Before using this opinion piece, my first question would be: Is it true? > Do black parents spank their children more than white parents? > > Do you have references? > > Ken > > > Jim Clark wrote: > >> Hi >> >> In my culture and psych class I use an activity on spanking centered >> around a short magazine piece on use of spanking by Black parents. See >> >> http://io.uwinnipeg.ca/~clark/teach/3050/Act07-spanking.pdf >> >> Take care >> Jim >> >> >> James M. Clark >> Professor of Psychology >> 204-786-9757 >> 204-774-4134 Fax >> j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca >> > > > --- > To make changes to your subscription contact: > > Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) > --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
Hi Jim: I can see why this article would generate lots of discussion. Before using this opinion piece, my first question would be: Is it true? Do black parents spank their children more than white parents? Do you have references? Ken Jim Clark wrote: Hi In my culture and psych class I use an activity on spanking centered around a short magazine piece on use of spanking by Black parents. See http://io.uwinnipeg.ca/~clark/teach/3050/Act07-spanking.pdf Take care Jim James M. Clark Professor of Psychology 204-786-9757 204-774-4134 Fax j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
Hi I tend to keep the discussion pretty focused on the empirical questions implied by the paper (are Black kids less likely than White kids to throw temper tantrums, do Black parents use spanking more, are kids who are spanked [black or white] less likely to throw temper tantrums) and on what research would be necessary to answer these questions (emphasizing distinction between non-experimental and experimental studies [surveys, parent training studies] and strength of causal conclusions). I do NOT try to give answers to these questions. Most of my actual lectures are on the standard classification of parenting styles. I could (and probably should) do a lot more with questions like cultural differences in use of spanking (corporal punishment) beyond Black parents, and look more intensively at literature mentioned by Beth. I do mention faith-based groups (e.g., in Ontario a few years ago) who threaten to leave the country when Child and Family services intends to interfere with parental use of spanking), but not enough on other cultural groups. I also cite examples of corporal punishment I've witnessed in Greece (my wife is Greek), even in parents of my or later generations. The class tends to be pretty multi-ethnic, largely due to large-scale Canadian immigration for some time now, and that has generally produced some differences in other sorts of experiences (direct or vicarious). For example, pretty much every year I have several students who know of people in arranged marriages (often their parents). Similar style of discussion (i.e., familiarity with rather than personal experience) might work well for use of corporal punishment. I'm also old enough to have personal knowledge of spanking in the home and at school, and don't have any "gut" aversion to it as opposed to a more intellectual one. Although it is shocking to see parents behave that way in public (e.g., in Greece). Take care Jim James M. Clark Professor of Psychology 204-786-9757 204-774-4134 Fax j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca Department of Psychology University of Winnipeg Winnipeg, Manitoba R3B 2E9 CANADA >>> Beth Benoit 31-Aug-09 1:43 PM >>> What an interesting article, Jim. It agrees with developmental findings that I've read about African-American attitudes toward parenting, but honestly, I've hesitated to discuss this in class. I have very few black students, and worry that if I interjected this, it could be oversimplified and misconstrued. I'd be very interested if you'd share a little of what your students think about the article. Beth Benoit Granite State College Plymouth State University New Hampshire On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Jim Clark wrote: > Hi > > In my culture and psych class I use an activity on spanking centered around > a short magazine piece on use of spanking by Black parents. See > > http://io.uwinnipeg.ca/~clark/teach/3050/Act07-spanking.pdf > > Take care > Jim > > > James M. Clark > Professor of Psychology > 204-786-9757 > 204-774-4134 Fax > j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca > > >>> Beth Benoit 31-Aug-09 1:00:30 PM >>> > I've found it interesting that every year since I began teaching at the > college level (in 1993), when I ask how many of my Human Development and > Child Psychology students were ever spanked, the numbers become smaller. > In 1993 when I would ask that question, maybe one or two out of a class of > 40 or 50 would say they'd never been spanked. It was so unusual that heads > would turn to check out this strange creature, and the person was often > asked, "So how did your parents discipline you?" > > But over the years, as the number of the "unspanked" increased, I've found > that more and more students marvel that there are parents who did spank. > (Remember that most of these students would have been children in the > early > nineties.) > > It's my understanding that spanking is more commonly accepted in Southern > states - at least, according to > > http://www.childinjurylawyerblog.com/2009/08/spanking_in_tennessee_and_sout_1.html > > , > it's still legal within many of the school systems. And a study done as > long ago as 1996, entitled "Regional differences in spanking experiences > and > attitudes: A comparison of northeastern and southern college students," by > Clifton Flynn, found exactly this: that students in northeastern colleges > were less likely to have been spanked and less likely to approve than > students in southern colleges. It appeared in Journal of Family > > Violence, > Vol 11(1), Mar, 1996. pp. 59-80. > > Beth Benoit > Granite State College > Plymouth State University > New Hampshire > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Michael Britt < > michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com> wrote: > > > In the latest episode of my podcast I interviewed the author of a > > great parenting book: Raising Children You Can Live With. Although > > the author discuss a lot of great ideas regarding how to interact with > > your child, it seems that my brief thoughts
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
What an interesting article, Jim. It agrees with developmental findings that I've read about African-American attitudes toward parenting, but honestly, I've hesitated to discuss this in class. I have very few black students, and worry that if I interjected this, it could be oversimplified and misconstrued. I'd be very interested if you'd share a little of what your students think about the article. Beth Benoit Granite State College Plymouth State University New Hampshire On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Jim Clark wrote: > Hi > > In my culture and psych class I use an activity on spanking centered around > a short magazine piece on use of spanking by Black parents. See > > http://io.uwinnipeg.ca/~clark/teach/3050/Act07-spanking.pdf > > Take care > Jim > > > James M. Clark > Professor of Psychology > 204-786-9757 > 204-774-4134 Fax > j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca > > >>> Beth Benoit 31-Aug-09 1:00:30 PM >>> > I've found it interesting that every year since I began teaching at the > college level (in 1993), when I ask how many of my Human Development and > Child Psychology students were ever spanked, the numbers become smaller. > In 1993 when I would ask that question, maybe one or two out of a class of > 40 or 50 would say they'd never been spanked. It was so unusual that heads > would turn to check out this strange creature, and the person was often > asked, "So how did your parents discipline you?" > > But over the years, as the number of the "unspanked" increased, I've found > that more and more students marvel that there are parents who did spank. > (Remember that most of these students would have been children in the > early > nineties.) > > It's my understanding that spanking is more commonly accepted in Southern > states - at least, according to > > http://www.childinjurylawyerblog.com/2009/08/spanking_in_tennessee_and_sout_1.html > , > it's still legal within many of the school systems. And a study done as > long ago as 1996, entitled "Regional differences in spanking experiences > and > attitudes: A comparison of northeastern and southern college students," by > Clifton Flynn, found exactly this: that students in northeastern colleges > were less likely to have been spanked and less likely to approve than > students in southern colleges. It appeared in Journal of Family > > Violence, > Vol 11(1), Mar, 1996. pp. 59-80. > > Beth Benoit > Granite State College > Plymouth State University > New Hampshire > > On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Michael Britt < > michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com> wrote: > > > In the latest episode of my podcast I interviewed the author of a > > great parenting book: Raising Children You Can Live With. Although > > the author discuss a lot of great ideas regarding how to interact with > > your child, it seems that my brief thoughts regarding the > > ineffectiveness of spanking is getting the most response. There's an > > interesting comment on the episode from a listener who strongly feels > > that spanking is needed in response to certain behaviors. You'll see > > my response as well. Also, I feel there's a nice "marriage" I think > > between behavioristic and humanistic philosophies in the author's > > approach to dealing with undesirable behavior from children. Since > > spanking is an experience that most students have had, the episode > > could make for an interesting discussion or homework around these two > > different approaches to modifying a child's behavior. If you want to > > check it out: > > > > http://bit.ly/vj4dZ > > > > Michael > > > > -- > > Michael Britt, Ph.D. > > Host of The Psych Files podcast > > www.thepsychfiles.com > > mich...@thepsychfiles.com > > > > > > --- > > To make changes to your subscription contact: > > > > Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) > > > > --- > To make changes to your subscription contact: > > Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) > > > --- > To make changes to your subscription contact: > > Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) > --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
Hi In my culture and psych class I use an activity on spanking centered around a short magazine piece on use of spanking by Black parents. See http://io.uwinnipeg.ca/~clark/teach/3050/Act07-spanking.pdf Take care Jim James M. Clark Professor of Psychology 204-786-9757 204-774-4134 Fax j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca >>> Beth Benoit 31-Aug-09 1:00:30 PM >>> I've found it interesting that every year since I began teaching at the college level (in 1993), when I ask how many of my Human Development and Child Psychology students were ever spanked, the numbers become smaller. In 1993 when I would ask that question, maybe one or two out of a class of 40 or 50 would say they'd never been spanked. It was so unusual that heads would turn to check out this strange creature, and the person was often asked, "So how did your parents discipline you?" But over the years, as the number of the "unspanked" increased, I've found that more and more students marvel that there are parents who did spank. (Remember that most of these students would have been children in the early nineties.) It's my understanding that spanking is more commonly accepted in Southern states - at least, according to http://www.childinjurylawyerblog.com/2009/08/spanking_in_tennessee_and_sout_1.html, it's still legal within many of the school systems. And a study done as long ago as 1996, entitled "Regional differences in spanking experiences and attitudes: A comparison of northeastern and southern college students," by Clifton Flynn, found exactly this: that students in northeastern colleges were less likely to have been spanked and less likely to approve than students in southern colleges. It appeared in Journal of Family Violence, Vol 11(1), Mar, 1996. pp. 59-80. Beth Benoit Granite State College Plymouth State University New Hampshire On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Michael Britt < michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com> wrote: > In the latest episode of my podcast I interviewed the author of a > great parenting book: Raising Children You Can Live With. Although > the author discuss a lot of great ideas regarding how to interact with > your child, it seems that my brief thoughts regarding the > ineffectiveness of spanking is getting the most response. There's an > interesting comment on the episode from a listener who strongly feels > that spanking is needed in response to certain behaviors. You'll see > my response as well. Also, I feel there's a nice "marriage" I think > between behavioristic and humanistic philosophies in the author's > approach to dealing with undesirable behavior from children. Since > spanking is an experience that most students have had, the episode > could make for an interesting discussion or homework around these two > different approaches to modifying a child's behavior. If you want to > check it out: > > http://bit.ly/vj4dZ > > Michael > > -- > Michael Britt, Ph.D. > Host of The Psych Files podcast > www.thepsychfiles.com > mich...@thepsychfiles.com > > > --- > To make changes to your subscription contact: > > Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) > --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
I've found it interesting that every year since I began teaching at the college level (in 1993), when I ask how many of my Human Development and Child Psychology students were ever spanked, the numbers become smaller. In 1993 when I would ask that question, maybe one or two out of a class of 40 or 50 would say they'd never been spanked. It was so unusual that heads would turn to check out this strange creature, and the person was often asked, "So how did your parents discipline you?" But over the years, as the number of the "unspanked" increased, I've found that more and more students marvel that there are parents who did spank. (Remember that most of these students would have been children in the early nineties.) It's my understanding that spanking is more commonly accepted in Southern states - at least, according to http://www.childinjurylawyerblog.com/2009/08/spanking_in_tennessee_and_sout_1.html, it's still legal within many of the school systems. And a study done as long ago as 1996, entitled "Regional differences in spanking experiences and attitudes: A comparison of northeastern and southern college students," by Clifton Flynn, found exactly this: that students in northeastern colleges were less likely to have been spanked and less likely to approve than students in southern colleges. It appeared in Journal of Family Violence, Vol 11(1), Mar, 1996. pp. 59-80. Beth Benoit Granite State College Plymouth State University New Hampshire On Mon, Aug 31, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Michael Britt < michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com> wrote: > In the latest episode of my podcast I interviewed the author of a > great parenting book: Raising Children You Can Live With. Although > the author discuss a lot of great ideas regarding how to interact with > your child, it seems that my brief thoughts regarding the > ineffectiveness of spanking is getting the most response. There's an > interesting comment on the episode from a listener who strongly feels > that spanking is needed in response to certain behaviors. You'll see > my response as well. Also, I feel there's a nice "marriage" I think > between behavioristic and humanistic philosophies in the author's > approach to dealing with undesirable behavior from children. Since > spanking is an experience that most students have had, the episode > could make for an interesting discussion or homework around these two > different approaches to modifying a child's behavior. If you want to > check it out: > > http://bit.ly/vj4dZ > > Michael > > -- > Michael Britt, Ph.D. > Host of The Psych Files podcast > www.thepsychfiles.com > mich...@thepsychfiles.com > > > --- > To make changes to your subscription contact: > > Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) > --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away
Thanks for the info Mike. I wonder though if our students really can relate to spanking. Be interesting to survey our classes, but I would think faculty might relate, but not as many of our students. I will ask. Gary Gerald L. (Gary) Peterson, Ph.D. Professor, Department of Psychology Saginaw Valley State University University Center, MI 48710 989-964-4491 peter...@svsu.edu - Original Message - From: "Michael Britt" To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 1:41:59 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [tips] Spanking - an idea that won't go away In the latest episode of my podcast I interviewed the author of a great parenting book: Raising Children You Can Live With. Although the author discuss a lot of great ideas regarding how to interact with your child, it seems that my brief thoughts regarding the ineffectiveness of spanking is getting the most response. There's an interesting comment on the episode from a listener who strongly feels that spanking is needed in response to certain behaviors. You'll see my response as well. Also, I feel there's a nice "marriage" I think between behavioristic and humanistic philosophies in the author's approach to dealing with undesirable behavior from children. Since spanking is an experience that most students have had, the episode could make for an interesting discussion or homework around these two different approaches to modifying a child's behavior. If you want to check it out: http://bit.ly/vj4dZ Michael -- Michael Britt, Ph.D. Host of The Psych Files podcast www.thepsychfiles.com mich...@thepsychfiles.com --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
