Re: [tips] Placebos: stirring the pot
Mike Burman wrote: "Moreover, blinking to a tone that predicts an insult to the eye is clearly a beneficial response in any sense." Yes, I suppose so. If it were up to me though, I think I would consider "placebo" to be a subset of expectancy effects which are medically beneficial. The rest I would consider expectancy and/or classical conditioning effects. --Mike --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=7664 or send a blank email to leave-7664-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Placebos: stirring the pot
Rick writes: I could see how taking a pill could, through repeated pairings, become associated with a particular effect. However, with the placebo effect, it would seem that there are two additional concerns. 1) If a person has taken a number of pills over the years for various conditions, and the pills had various effects, wouldn't this dilute the placebo effect in the case of any particular effect? On the other hand, if every pill you ever took had analgesic effects, it would seem that a pill could come to elicit a conditioned response. But that leads us to 2) Would the placebo response be congruent with or opposite of the original effect? For example, if a stimulatory effect is predicted by the delivery of a CS, the CR can often be the opposite of the UR (a depressant effect) allowing the organism to maintain homeostasis. In that case, the placebo effect would be the opposite of the effect of the drug. Both great questions. As to the different effects of types of drugs that we've had experience with, this would be an example of discriminative conditioning. It's not hard to classically condition different responses to the same CS, using different USs in different contexts. Thus, the context (including perhaps cognitive expectations) could play a role in determining which effect we see. As to whether the CR should be the same as the UR, opposite or unrelated; as I'm sure you know, classical conditioning can produce all three patterns. in Domjan's text, he suggests that the CR is affected by the CS, US, timing between them and the context. Often the rule seems to be that the CR that is exhibited is the one that best prepares the animal for the anticipated occurrence of the US. Thus, I would guess the direction of the placebo effect would depend upon the nature of the drug and the speed of its onset of action. Mike --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=7654 or send a blank email to leave-7654-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Placebos: stirring the pot
Michael Smith wrote: I think this is incorrect. The original question was "why any classically conditioned stimulus could not be viewed as a placebo". The original question was not about the mechanism of placebos (Michael Burman's response) or some of the other issues raised by Rick and Claudia, interesting though they may be." Fair enough. If the question is whether all classical conditioning should be viewed as identical to the placebo effect, then the answer is no. Classical conditioning is too broad. If the question is whether the placebo effect can be viewed as a special case of classical conditioning, then I think the answer is clearly yes. To the extent that one stimulus (a US; drug) coincides with and is predicted by another (the CS; stimulus properties of a pill) we see a novel response being learned. This has the requisite properties of classical conditioning (contiguity and contingency between two stimuli). By the way, I think your example needs some clarification. In the eyeblink paradigm, a tone is paired with a puff of air to the eye. The tone then produces a blink on it's own. Thus, the tone is the stimulus comparable to the placebo pill in a drug situation. Moreover, blinking to a tone that predicts an insult to the eye is clearly a beneficial response in any sense. Mike Burman --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=7652 or send a blank email to leave-7652-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Placebos: stirring the pot
A placebo may not have medicinal value but that does not imply that it has no other effective value.Please note that the stimulus complex under the classical conditioning paradigm extend s to the temporal as well as its spacial connectivity.A good example of this is the recognition and construction of the fear hierarchy in systematic desensitization.As Bonnie Raitt would sing "Something to talk about." Michael "omnicentric" Sylvester,PhD Daytona Beach,Florida --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=7651 or send a blank email to leave-7651-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Placebos: stirring the pot
Michael Burman wrote: "I think no one has answered this because it is essentially correct. Classical conditioning is a likely mechanism for the placebo effect. Robert Ader gave a talk at the Pavlovian Society Meeting a couple of years back showing that the immune system in rats could be classically conditioned to respond to a CS via pairings with an immuno-suppressent drug." I think this is incorrect. The original question was "why any classically conditioned stimulus could not be viewed as a placebo" The original question was not about the mechanism of placebos (Michael Burman's response) or some of the other issues raised by Rick and Claudia, interesting though they may be. In the traditional conditioned eye-blink response the stimulus is a puff of air. Now, could a puff of air be conditioned to produce a placebo effect (i.e. physically or psychologically beneficial response)? I suppose it's "possible", but I think unlikely. Not every pairing can be learned with equal efficacy and some presumably cannot be learned at all. (For example, a feeling of increased well-being is unlikely to be induced by severe electrical shock). Hence my original response highlighted the beneficial aspect of the placebo effect, and not every stimulus capable of inducing a classically conditioned response would result in a placebo effect. --Mike --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=7650 or send a blank email to leave-7650-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Placebos: stirring the pot
Rick raises some big questions, all of which are interesting. A careful examination of the mechanisms associated with placebos should also include conditioning mechanisms that produce attenuation of the pharmacological effect of active drugs (like the tolerances that are classically conditioned to alcohol, opiates, and other drugs that create dramatic changes in physiology). The effect of conditioning is probably not uniform. It might vary with the degree to which the substance ingested can produce homeostatic imbalances. And the association with environmental cues during conditioning will play a role, as evidenced by the problems with ODs when the large tolerance dose of an opiate is ingested in a novel envrionment. I expect sorting all this out will take some time and the answer won't be simple! Claudia Stanny --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=7648 or send a blank email to leave-7648-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
RE: [tips] Placebos: stirring the pot
I could see how taking a pill could, through repeated pairings, become associated with a particular effect. However, with the placebo effect, it would seem that there are two additional concerns. 1) If a person has taken a number of pills over the years for various conditions, and the pills had various effects, wouldn't this dilute the placebo effect in the case of any particular effect? On the other hand, if every pill you ever took had analgesic effects, it would seem that a pill could come to elicit a conditioned response. But that leads us to 2) Would the placebo response be congruent with or opposite of the original effect? For example, if a stimulatory effect is predicted by the delivery of a CS, the CR can often be the opposite of the UR (a depressant effect) allowing the organism to maintain homeostasis. In that case, the placebo effect would be the opposite of the effect of the drug. Rick Dr. Rick Froman, Chair Division of Humanities and Social Sciences Professor of Psychology Box 3055 John Brown University 2000 W. University Siloam Springs, AR 72761 rfro...@jbu.edu (479)524-7295 http://tinyurl.com/DrFroman "The LORD detests both Type I and Type II errors." Proverbs 17:15 From: Michael Burman [mailto:mbur...@une.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 11:12 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Placebos: stirring the pot No one has really addressed my question as to why any classically conditioned stimulus could not be viewed as a placebo (or nocebo). I think no one has answered this because it is essentially correct. Classical conditioning is a likely mechanism for the placebo effect. Robert Ader gave a talk at the Pavlovian Society Meeting a couple of years back showing that the immune system in rats could be classically conditioned to respond to a CS via pairings with an immuno-suppressent drug. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12615187 In humans, there are other plausible mechanisms involving cognitive expectations, but those certainly wouldn't rule out a role for classical conditioning. So - I think the answer is "yes". Placebo's work because a taking a little pill is so often associated with effective drugs. The more pills we take, the larger the placebo effect will become. Perhaps we are already seeing evidence of this. Mike --- Michael A Burman Ph.D. Assistant Professor Dept. of Psychology 328 Decary Hall University of New England 11 Hills Beach Rd Biddeford ME 04005 207-602-2301 mbur...@une.edu<mailto:mbur...@une.edu> --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: rfro...@jbu.edu<mailto:rfro...@jbu.edu>. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13039.37a56d458b5e856d05bcfb3322db5f8a&n=T&l=tips&o=7646 (It may be necessary to cut and paste the above URL if the line is broken) or send a blank email to leave-7646-13039.37a56d458b5e856d05bcfb3322db5...@fsulist.frostburg.edu<mailto:leave-7646-13039.37a56d458b5e856d05bcfb3322db5...@fsulist.frostburg.edu> --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=7647 or send a blank email to leave-7647-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Placebos: stirring the pot
> No one has really addressed my question as to why any classically conditioned > stimulus could not be viewed as a placebo (or nocebo). I think no one has answered this because it is essentially correct. Classical conditioning is a likely mechanism for the placebo effect. Robert Ader gave a talk at the Pavlovian Society Meeting a couple of years back showing that the immune system in rats could be classically conditioned to respond to a CS via pairings with an immuno-suppressent drug. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12615187 In humans, there are other plausible mechanisms involving cognitive expectations, but those certainly wouldn't rule out a role for classical conditioning. So - I think the answer is "yes". Placebo's work because a taking a little pill is so often associated with effective drugs. The more pills we take, the larger the placebo effect will become. Perhaps we are already seeing evidence of this. Mike --- Michael A Burman Ph.D. Assistant Professor Dept. of Psychology 328 Decary Hall University of New England 11 Hills Beach Rd Biddeford ME 04005 207-602-2301 mbur...@une.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=7646 or send a blank email to leave-7646-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Placebos: stirring the pot
> No one has really addressed my question as to why any classically > conditioned stimulus could not be viewed as a placebo (or nocebo). Not being a behavioral specialist I see my opportunity here :) I would imagine that any stimulus used to entrain a classically conditioned response would not be considered a placebo in general, because a placebo implies, in general, a beneficial physical or psychological effect. Conditioning an eye blink response, while being a physical response, is nevertheless not beneficial. --Mike --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=7645 or send a blank email to leave-7645-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
[tips] Placebos: stirring the pot
No one has really addressed my question as to why any classically conditioned stimulus could not be viewed as a placebo (or nocebo). Humans are remarkable in a) the speed with which they can learn associations b) our ability to learn by observing others, and c) our ability to learn associations simply by being told that they exist. See, for example, Behaviourally conditioned modification of T cell subset ratios in rats A.J. Husband, M.G. King, and R. Brown Abstract Levamisole injection resulted in an elevation in the T helper:T suppressor (H:S) subset ratio in rats at 24 h after injection due to a selective depression in the cytotoxic/suppressor subset. This response was shown to be conditionable and could be reenlisted 14 days later by re-exposure to the conditioned stimulus. Rats were conditioned using a taste aversion paradigm by pairing levamisole injection with the novel taste of saccharin. Fourteen days later, after a second exposure to saccharin without levamisole injection, H:S ratios were elevated in the blood of these rats compared to control rats injected with levamisole but fed normal water or rats fed saccharin without levamisole injection. And just to add another facet to the question: One of my favorite quotes is from Martin Gross' book "The Psychological Society: A Critical Analysis of Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, Psychoanalysis, and the Psychological Revolution" in which he refers to clinical psychologists as the "institutionalized dispensers of placebos." I love to rattle my students' cages with that quote. But I then go on to demonstrate that placebo effects are real and powerful and that to be an expert in the administration of placebos is no trivial thing. Edward I. Pollak, Ph.D. Department of Psychology West Chester University of Pennsylvania http://home.comcast.net/~epollak/home.htm Husband, father, grandfather, biopsychologist, & bluegrass fiddler.. in approximate order of importance. --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=7643 or send a blank email to leave-7643-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
