Re: AW: List traffic et al
In a perfect world, yes, I totally agree. However, in the real world, who's going to enforce the guidelines? (we already have guidelines that few people pay attention to...) Reposting the guidelines and links to the FAQ and archive on a regular basis would probably help, and I agree that it should be done. Personally, I don't care about the volume on the list. I have a broadband connection and it only takes me a couple of seconds to download all the daily messages. However, I think Tomcat is a broad enough subject to warrant more than just one generic list. I think a couple of focused lists would help people with non-generic questions. And, as Milt Epstein points out in a later post, involvement may actually increase on smaller, focused lists. I don't think the volume on the tomcat-user list will decrease much at all, even if it is split. However, splitting will allow people with focused interests beyond getting Tomcat up and running to participate without being deluged with messages they may not be interested in. More choices are usually better than less. --jeff > From: "Nico Wieland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 13:17:13 +0200 > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: AW: List traffic et al > > i agree 100%. i think a _good_ thing would be to include these guidelines in > the confirmation message one receives after subscribing to the list. this is > the way how it's done eg. on sun-managers, they post the guidelines once a > month. it's the most disciplined list i know. > > -nico > >> Rather let all of us try to reduce volume(both in size and >> number), it does >> not require much effort. >> >> Lets just try to follow the following. > > [snip] >
Re: List traffic et al
On Fri, 6 Jul 2001, Dmitri Colebatch wrote: > I think the big problem with splitting the list is that everyone is > going to be interested in their own little niche. I for instance > learn nothing by answering many questions that I answer, but I do > learn things from reading other answers. If the list was split, I > would (potentially) have the option to only see the messages that I > would learn from. This disadvantages other people on the list. And > this is going to occur at all levels. Even relative newbies should > be capable of answering some questions that they have just dealt > with the day before. I can see what you're saying, but I see a couple of problems with this. First, it's like forcing people to do something that they would/could/should have the option of doing themselves anyway. You're making it sound like people should have to read everything so that they wouldn't miss anything where they might be able to help. Well, of course, if there was a split, people who wanted to do this could still do this. And you shouldn't force people to do this. More practically, I don't think it's the most effective way to achieve your goal (more participation from people who have the answers). With a single high volume list, I believe people will tend to skim/skip more things, and perhaps even drop off the list totally. With a lower volume list, they might very well participate in the way you're suggesting -- albeit only on a subset of posts. But greater participation on a subset of posts may work out better than less participation on all the posts. For example, I see myself skipping a ton of posts because I just don't have the time; if the volume were smaller, and the scope more relevant to my interests/expertise, I would definitely participate more. (Granted that coming up with a split that will facilitate this is not trivial. But it may be worth it.) Basically, you want to make it easy and worthwhile for the more experienced people to participate, and I think a split -- a good split -- will do this. > If we want to reduce traffic surely a digest is the option. The > JBoss list has a _lot_ more traffic than this one, and I am able to > receive that in digest mode quite happily. As has been pointed out, there is already a digest option. And this must be a personal thing, because I would absolutely detest getting such a high volume list as a digest and couldn't imagine reading it that way. > On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:45, Jeff Kilbride wrote: > > Even if the list is not split into these specific sub-topics, I would > > certainly like to see it split along Windows/Unix lines. I use Unix > > exclusively and I skip over 99% of the Windows questions, because I don't > > have any experience with Tomcat on that platform. I'm sure Windows users > > feel the same way about Unix related questions. [ ... ] Milt Epstein Research Programmer Software/Systems Development Group Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO) University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: List traffic et al
At 11:11 AM 06/07/01, you wrote: >Hi, > I've been on the list about eight months and I'm not sure >I agree that splitting it will alleviate the volume problem. >I'm rather afraid that I would end up subscribed to 2 or 3 >high volume lists rather than one. I imagine that we would >see a lot of multiple posts across the lists. > >Previous suggestions for how the list could be split seem to me to fall into >three categories >1) By platform >2) By competence (i.e. newbie list, advanced user list) >3) By category of problem I fully agree - the only way I could see to divide this list that makes any sense would be installation/post-installation - though, again, where would "tomcat as service" type posts go? It is a very high volume list, but with a threaded mail reader that can be dealt with - most (gui-based) readers allow one to order by subject, and hence delete by subject... The information I've learnt here has been invaluable, and certainly I find replying to the odd "newbie" post makes up for the guilty feeling I get for not contributing more actively to the project ;) Jim -- * Jim Cheesman * Trabajo: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - (34)(91) 724 9200 x 2360 Always be on the lookout for conspicuousness.
AW: List traffic et al
i agree 100%. i think a _good_ thing would be to include these guidelines in the confirmation message one receives after subscribing to the list. this is the way how it's done eg. on sun-managers, they post the guidelines once a month. it's the most disciplined list i know. -nico > Rather let all of us try to reduce volume(both in size and > number), it does > not require much effort. > > Lets just try to follow the following. [snip]
RE: List traffic et al
I TOTALLY agree with this, deviding will not be helpful. Rather let all of us try to reduce volume(both in size and number), it does not require much effort. Lets just try to follow the following. - Please go through the archives and docs before posting a question. The members should also refrain from answering questions which are there in the docs, please refer the docs would be the best reply. - Do not post messages in non text format such as HTML, Doc or RTF. - Do not post attachments to the list (such as vCards, ms-tnef etc.) - Use a meaningful subject. A single word like ``Help!'' doesn't help in understanding the nature of the problem, and may be skipped by a person who may actually have been able to help you. It also will be helpful in ignoring the issues in whcih an individual is not interested. - Change the subject if you're changing the content of a thread drastically. - Remove extras when quoting. If the quoted message contained a standard list trailer or a long signature, do remove it in your response. - Give enough information to help your reader to help you if you're posting about a problem. Statements like, ``My Apache doesn't work'' are useless since they give no description of the problem, no idea about the methods you tried to identify the problem, and no information (logs, etc) which could help in diagnosing the problem. Give enough information (how did you set it up, what did you do to test it, what was the exact output, what did the logs contain, what versions of software/hardware were you using, etc) to enable remote diagnostics. - Research your facts before you post solutions to the list. If you're not sure of the solution to a problem, either do not post, or first make sure of all the steps and then post. If you cannot make sure, state very clearly in the message that you're not sure and that the user is trying your solution at his/her own risk. No solution is preferable to a wrong solution, which may cause immense damage. For more info please read. http://lists.linux-india.org/lists/linux-india-help/guidelines.txt Shuklix -Original Message- From: Andrew Robson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: List traffic et al Hi, I've been on the list about eight months and I'm not sure I agree that splitting it will alleviate the volume problem. I'm rather afraid that I would end up subscribed to 2 or 3 high volume lists rather than one. I imagine that we would see a lot of multiple posts across the lists. Previous suggestions for how the list could be split seem to me to fall into three categories 1) By platform 2) By competence (i.e. newbie list, advanced user list) 3) By category of problem Splitting the list on basis of platform strikes me as little perverse for a java based technology. However I recognise there are substantive issues because different platform = different web server. And I guess it would mean no more 'out of environment space' and 'how do i run tomcat as a service' posts but I already manage to filter most of these out anyway. My main concern would be that I'd be effectively cutting off a valuable section of the tomcat community. Whose to say the person capable and willing to solve my problem isn't running NT? And conversly why should i only post solutions to people who happen to be running the same OS as me? Problem with dividing on competence is that it is not clear how attractive a newbie list would be. Would people subscribe to a list made up of people who by definition are unlikely to know the answer to your question? Also aren't we trying to foster a strong community of tomcat/servlet developers. We would hardly be doing that by cutting newbies off from the 'experts'. After all what is going to happen? Newbies will post to their list, wait , not get an answer and repost to the advanced users list. Not a very encouraging introduction to tomcat. Dividing by category of problem seems to me the suggestion with the most merit. However here again I'm not convinced. I just think it would be incredibly difficult to get the right categories. Problems by their nature tend to cut across such neat boundaries. And half the time you don't know what category your problem fits into; that's why you have a problem. Suppose I'm trying to set up SSL. Potentially this is going to fall into all three of the categories that Sam has suggested. So again I think we are going to get multiple redundant posts and I think we completly cloud the issue of where to look for help. So what is to be done. It seems to me that good documentation projects (such as the tomcat book at sourceforge) offer the best hope for cutting the volume on this list. I know there is a big problem people posting problems which have been dealt with many, many times (sometimes in the same
Re: List traffic et al
Hi, I've been on the list about eight months and I'm not sure I agree that splitting it will alleviate the volume problem. I'm rather afraid that I would end up subscribed to 2 or 3 high volume lists rather than one. I imagine that we would see a lot of multiple posts across the lists. Previous suggestions for how the list could be split seem to me to fall into three categories 1) By platform 2) By competence (i.e. newbie list, advanced user list) 3) By category of problem Splitting the list on basis of platform strikes me as little perverse for a java based technology. However I recognise there are substantive issues because different platform = different web server. And I guess it would mean no more 'out of environment space' and 'how do i run tomcat as a service' posts but I already manage to filter most of these out anyway. My main concern would be that I'd be effectively cutting off a valuable section of the tomcat community. Whose to say the person capable and willing to solve my problem isn't running NT? And conversly why should i only post solutions to people who happen to be running the same OS as me? Problem with dividing on competence is that it is not clear how attractive a newbie list would be. Would people subscribe to a list made up of people who by definition are unlikely to know the answer to your question? Also aren't we trying to foster a strong community of tomcat/servlet developers. We would hardly be doing that by cutting newbies off from the 'experts'. After all what is going to happen? Newbies will post to their list, wait , not get an answer and repost to the advanced users list. Not a very encouraging introduction to tomcat. Dividing by category of problem seems to me the suggestion with the most merit. However here again I'm not convinced. I just think it would be incredibly difficult to get the right categories. Problems by their nature tend to cut across such neat boundaries. And half the time you don't know what category your problem fits into; that's why you have a problem. Suppose I'm trying to set up SSL. Potentially this is going to fall into all three of the categories that Sam has suggested. So again I think we are going to get multiple redundant posts and I think we completly cloud the issue of where to look for help. So what is to be done. It seems to me that good documentation projects (such as the tomcat book at sourceforge) offer the best hope for cutting the volume on this list. I know there is a big problem people posting problems which have been dealt with many, many times (sometimes in the same day!). I just don't know what you do about it other than regular reminders to check the archives before posting. And it is fairly clear that doesn't work. Last point: This list has saved my bacon a couple of times in the last eight months. As irritating as the high volume can be I think it is still very valuable in its current form. andrew On Fri, 06 Jul 2001, you wrote: > I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that I have to wade through all > these messages "for the good of the list". As I said, I have no experience > with Tomcat on Windows, so I'm not interested in Windows specific issues nor > can I help to solve them. Splitting along platform lines should retain a > relatively good mix of newbies and experienced developers in each list, so I > don't see the problem you are pointing out. > > In any event, even if the list is split on basic vs. advanced topics, > advanced users who wanted to help the community could subscribe to all > lists. I don't think it's necessarily "bad" to want to subscribe only to the > lists you feel you can learn from. I've been lurking and posting for about 9 > months now and it seems that the same basic group of people answer a > majority of the questions. I used to answer a lot more than I do now, but > I'll admit that I get pretty frustrated answering the same questions over > and over when I know the answers can be easily found in the archive. Is it > selfish or bad of me to skip over questions I used to answer, or should more > responsibility be placed on the person asking the question? (rhetorical, > because there's no way to control whether or not people actually search the > archives before posting...) > > A digest version is already available for this list. > > --jeff > > > From: Dmitri Colebatch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:03:14 +1000 > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jeff Kilbride <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: List traffic et al > > > > I think the big problem with splitting the list is that everyone is going to > > be interested in their own little niche. I f
Re: List traffic et al
Jeff, On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:38, Jeff Kilbride wrote: > Splitting along platform lines should retain > a relatively good mix of newbies and experienced developers in each list, > so I don't see the problem you are pointing out. correct. I suppose my reply was not so much to your email, more the discussion in general. thats a very valid point you make. > A digest version is already available for this list. sorry - I didn't know. I should RTFM! (o: cheers dim > > --jeff > > > From: Dmitri Colebatch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:03:14 +1000 > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jeff Kilbride <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: List traffic et al > > > > I think the big problem with splitting the list is that everyone is going > > to be interested in their own little niche. I for instance learn nothing > > by answering many questions that I answer, but I do learn things from > > reading other answers. If the list was split, I would (potentially) have > > the option to only see the messages that I would learn from. This > > disadvantages other people on the list. And this is going to occur at > > all levels. Even relative newbies should be capable of answering some > > questions that they have just dealt with the day before. > > > > If we want to reduce traffic surely a digest is the option. The JBoss > > list has a _lot_ more traffic than this one, and I am able to receive > > that in digest mode quite happily. > > > > anyway, my 2c > > > > cheesr > > dim > > > > On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:45, Jeff Kilbride wrote: > >> Even if the list is not split into these specific sub-topics, I would > >> certainly like to see it split along Windows/Unix lines. I use Unix > >> exclusively and I skip over 99% of the Windows questions, because I > >> don't have any experience with Tomcat on that platform. I'm sure Windows > >> users feel the same way about Unix related questions. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> --jeff > >> > >>> From: "Hemant Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> Organization: Supportscape Inc. > >>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:39:13 +0530 > >>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> Subject: Re: List traffic et al > >>> > >>> HI: > >>> Heartly agree with yur idea and before this also i keep on getting > >>> agree with same kind of ideas but i just dont know who is the moderator > >>> of this group and how this can be acheived. > >>> Regards > >>> Hemant > >>> - Original Message - > >>> From: "Milt Epstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:41 PM > >>> Subject: Re: List traffic et al > >>> > >>>> On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sam Newman wrote: > >>>>> Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely > >>>>> get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me > >>>>> that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a > >>>>> whole: > >>>>> > >>>>> 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects > >>>>> them 2.) General tomcat configuration issues > >>>>> 3.) Webserver integration issues > >>>>> > >>>>> I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people > >>>>> like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just > >>>>> wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into > >>>>> 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up > >>>>> and running and so don't care too much about that end of things, > >>>>> however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to > >>>>> me. > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm > >>>>> missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to > >>>>> work though all the posts > >>>> > >>>> This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for > >>>> dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the two > >>>> or three highest volume apache lists). I even volunteered to take the > >>>> lead in doing this. So I sent a note to the list owner explaining the > >>>> idea. Unfortunately, I never heard anything back. Without the list > >>>> owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the > >>>> apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this. So, > >>>> we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists > >>>> to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it > >>>> doesn't make sense to do too much work on it. > >>>> > >>>> Milt Epstein > >>>> Research Programmer > >>>> Software/Systems Development Group > >>>> Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO) > >>>> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) > >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: List traffic et al
I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that I have to wade through all these messages "for the good of the list". As I said, I have no experience with Tomcat on Windows, so I'm not interested in Windows specific issues nor can I help to solve them. Splitting along platform lines should retain a relatively good mix of newbies and experienced developers in each list, so I don't see the problem you are pointing out. In any event, even if the list is split on basic vs. advanced topics, advanced users who wanted to help the community could subscribe to all lists. I don't think it's necessarily "bad" to want to subscribe only to the lists you feel you can learn from. I've been lurking and posting for about 9 months now and it seems that the same basic group of people answer a majority of the questions. I used to answer a lot more than I do now, but I'll admit that I get pretty frustrated answering the same questions over and over when I know the answers can be easily found in the archive. Is it selfish or bad of me to skip over questions I used to answer, or should more responsibility be placed on the person asking the question? (rhetorical, because there's no way to control whether or not people actually search the archives before posting...) A digest version is already available for this list. --jeff > From: Dmitri Colebatch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 16:03:14 +1000 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jeff Kilbride <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: List traffic et al > > I think the big problem with splitting the list is that everyone is going to > be interested in their own little niche. I for instance learn nothing by > answering many questions that I answer, but I do learn things from reading > other answers. If the list was split, I would (potentially) have the option > to only see the messages that I would learn from. This disadvantages other > people on the list. And this is going to occur at all levels. Even relative > newbies should be capable of answering some questions that they have just > dealt with the day before. > > If we want to reduce traffic surely a digest is the option. The JBoss list > has a _lot_ more traffic than this one, and I am able to receive that in > digest mode quite happily. > > anyway, my 2c > > cheesr > dim > > > On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:45, Jeff Kilbride wrote: >> Even if the list is not split into these specific sub-topics, I would >> certainly like to see it split along Windows/Unix lines. I use Unix >> exclusively and I skip over 99% of the Windows questions, because I don't >> have any experience with Tomcat on that platform. I'm sure Windows users >> feel the same way about Unix related questions. >> >> Thanks, >> --jeff >> >>> From: "Hemant Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Organization: Supportscape Inc. >>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:39:13 +0530 >>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Subject: Re: List traffic et al >>> >>> HI: >>> Heartly agree with yur idea and before this also i keep on getting agree >>> with same kind of ideas but i just dont know who is the moderator of this >>> group and how this can be acheived. >>> Regards >>> Hemant >>> - Original Message - >>> From: "Milt Epstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:41 PM >>> Subject: Re: List traffic et al >>> >>>> On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sam Newman wrote: >>>>> Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely >>>>> get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me >>>>> that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a >>>>> whole: >>>>> >>>>> 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects them >>>>> 2.) General tomcat configuration issues >>>>> 3.) Webserver integration issues >>>>> >>>>> I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people >>>>> like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just >>>>> wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into >>>>> 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up >>>>> and running and so don't care too much about that end of things, >>>>> however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to >>>>>
Re: List traffic et al
I think the big problem with splitting the list is that everyone is going to be interested in their own little niche. I for instance learn nothing by answering many questions that I answer, but I do learn things from reading other answers. If the list was split, I would (potentially) have the option to only see the messages that I would learn from. This disadvantages other people on the list. And this is going to occur at all levels. Even relative newbies should be capable of answering some questions that they have just dealt with the day before. If we want to reduce traffic surely a digest is the option. The JBoss list has a _lot_ more traffic than this one, and I am able to receive that in digest mode quite happily. anyway, my 2c cheesr dim On Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:45, Jeff Kilbride wrote: > Even if the list is not split into these specific sub-topics, I would > certainly like to see it split along Windows/Unix lines. I use Unix > exclusively and I skip over 99% of the Windows questions, because I don't > have any experience with Tomcat on that platform. I'm sure Windows users > feel the same way about Unix related questions. > > Thanks, > --jeff > > > From: "Hemant Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Organization: Supportscape Inc. > > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:39:13 +0530 > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: Re: List traffic et al > > > > HI: > > Heartly agree with yur idea and before this also i keep on getting agree > > with same kind of ideas but i just dont know who is the moderator of this > > group and how this can be acheived. > > Regards > > Hemant > > - Original Message - > > From: "Milt Epstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:41 PM > > Subject: Re: List traffic et al > > > >> On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sam Newman wrote: > >>> Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely > >>> get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me > >>> that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a > >>> whole: > >>> > >>> 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects them > >>> 2.) General tomcat configuration issues > >>> 3.) Webserver integration issues > >>> > >>> I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people > >>> like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just > >>> wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into > >>> 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up > >>> and running and so don't care too much about that end of things, > >>> however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to > >>> me. > >>> > >>> I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm > >>> missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to > >>> work though all the posts > >> > >> This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for > >> dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the two > >> or three highest volume apache lists). I even volunteered to take the > >> lead in doing this. So I sent a note to the list owner explaining the > >> idea. Unfortunately, I never heard anything back. Without the list > >> owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the > >> apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this. So, > >> we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists > >> to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it > >> doesn't make sense to do too much work on it. > >> > >> Milt Epstein > >> Research Programmer > >> Software/Systems Development Group > >> Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO) > >> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: List traffic et al
Even if the list is not split into these specific sub-topics, I would certainly like to see it split along Windows/Unix lines. I use Unix exclusively and I skip over 99% of the Windows questions, because I don't have any experience with Tomcat on that platform. I'm sure Windows users feel the same way about Unix related questions. Thanks, --jeff > From: "Hemant Singh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Organization: Supportscape Inc. > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 13:39:13 +0530 > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: List traffic et al > > HI: > Heartly agree with yur idea and before this also i keep on getting agree > with same kind of ideas but i just dont know who is the moderator of this > group and how this can be acheived. > Regards > Hemant > - Original Message - > From: "Milt Epstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:41 PM > Subject: Re: List traffic et al > > >> On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sam Newman wrote: >> >>> Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely >>> get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me >>> that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a >>> whole: >>> >>> 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects them >>> 2.) General tomcat configuration issues >>> 3.) Webserver integration issues >>> >>> I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people >>> like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just >>> wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into >>> 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up >>> and running and so don't care too much about that end of things, >>> however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to >>> me. >>> >>> I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm >>> missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to >>> work though all the posts >> >> This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for >> dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the two >> or three highest volume apache lists). I even volunteered to take the >> lead in doing this. So I sent a note to the list owner explaining the >> idea. Unfortunately, I never heard anything back. Without the list >> owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the >> apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this. So, >> we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists >> to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it >> doesn't make sense to do too much work on it. >> >> Milt Epstein >> Research Programmer >> Software/Systems Development Group >> Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO) >> University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >
Re: List traffic et al
HI: Heartly agree with yur idea and before this also i keep on getting agree with same kind of ideas but i just dont know who is the moderator of this group and how this can be acheived. Regards Hemant - Original Message - From: "Milt Epstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 10:41 PM Subject: Re: List traffic et al > On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sam Newman wrote: > > > Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely > > get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me > > that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a > > whole: > > > > 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects them > > 2.) General tomcat configuration issues > > 3.) Webserver integration issues > > > > I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people > > like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just > > wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into > > 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up > > and running and so don't care too much about that end of things, > > however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to > > me. > > > > I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm > > missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to > > work though all the posts > > This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for > dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the two > or three highest volume apache lists). I even volunteered to take the > lead in doing this. So I sent a note to the list owner explaining the > idea. Unfortunately, I never heard anything back. Without the list > owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the > apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this. So, > we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists > to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it > doesn't make sense to do too much work on it. > > Milt Epstein > Research Programmer > Software/Systems Development Group > Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO) > University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: List traffic et al
Milt wrote: > This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for > dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the two > or three highest volume apache lists). I even volunteered to take the > lead in doing this. So I sent a note to the list owner explaining the > idea. Unfortunately, I never heard anything back. Without the list > owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the > apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this. So, > we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists > to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it > doesn't make sense to do too much work on it. perhaps if we came up with a general consensus as to how to split the lists, we might get more of a response? As a first draft proposal, what about the following division: tomcat-config - for deploying webapps (web.xml, war files), working with server.xml, running on various platforms etc tomcat-integration - for working with other webservers, EJB containers, databases etc. Please feel free to comment sam
Re: List traffic et al
On Tue, 3 Jul 2001, Sam Newman wrote: > Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely > get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me > that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a > whole: > > 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects them > 2.) General tomcat configuration issues > 3.) Webserver integration issues > > I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people > like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just > wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into > 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up > and running and so don't care too much about that end of things, > however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to > me. > > I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm > missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to > work though all the posts This idea has come up before, and I think it's one of the best for dealing with the high volume on this list (I guess it's one of the two or three highest volume apache lists). I even volunteered to take the lead in doing this. So I sent a note to the list owner explaining the idea. Unfortunately, I never heard anything back. Without the list owner's cooperation/participation (or someone who can modify the apache/jakarta mailing lists), it won't be possible to do this. So, we could do some work on this (i.e. figuring out what separate lists to have), but unless we know that it's going to come to something, it doesn't make sense to do too much work on it. Milt Epstein Research Programmer Software/Systems Development Group Computing and Communications Services Office (CCSO) University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (UIUC) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: List traffic et al
> I think tomcat is a really good product, but for me it did take time to > figure out how the various config files, and their (initially) unwieldy > syntax works. > > I no longer consider the tomcat configuration syntax unwieldy, but for a > newbie it can be hard to understand. My single bigest complaint is that when there is a problem with the syntax (e.g. in web.xml) the error is typically not very informative. This in itself leads to allot of problems. sam
Re: List traffic et al
Perhaps what would be useful here is some type of moderation system for threads on the list that so people who find those topics that are most helpful - i.e. don't seem to be covered elsewhere in the existing docs, can be identified and flagged for inclusion in the 'official' docs. It could be as simple as replying to a list topic with a(where rating was a score out of 5 stating how helpful the thread was) tag or something in the subject and the mailing list processor could send it to someone who could collate the threads etc. There is probably a better way to do this, but hey, it's been a long day :) I think the list represents excellent value in and of itself, however, and generally people only turn to the list if other sources of information come up short, or are not clear enough. I think tomcat is a really good product, but for me it did take time to figure out how the various config files, and their (initially) unwieldy syntax works. I no longer consider the tomcat configuration syntax unwieldy, but for a newbie it can be hard to understand. -Pete > Paul Wrote: > > >> well there's already [EMAIL PROTECTED] and >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> there's also [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> perhaps ppl with more development specific questions should use these? >> > > Thanks for that Paul. I kind of stopped using the Sun Java forums because > they weren't much use, but after looking at the archives these look pretty > good. Incidently I found a good archive of them (and others) at > http://www.servlets.com/lists/index.html > > sam >
Re: List traffic et al
Sounds good. Aren't there online tools for creating FAQ's via a web-front end? Of course, there are always going to be the people who ask first, read the documents later :-) sam - Original Message - From: "Emir Alikadic (ADNOC IS&T)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 11:38 AM Subject: RE: List traffic et al > Why don't we then monitor the list for a while and figure out the exact > questions that keep on coming up. We can then create an FAQ for the list > and post it somewhere (maybe Jakarta Project would host it) and we can then > direct all "newbies" there. > > We can then retain [what I perceive is] the purpose of this list, while > reducing (dramataically) the volume of correspondence. > > How's that? > > > > Emir. >
Re: List traffic et al
Paul Wrote: > well there's already [EMAIL PROTECTED] and > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > there's also [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > perhaps ppl with more development specific questions should use these? > Thanks for that Paul. I kind of stopped using the Sun Java forums because they weren't much use, but after looking at the archives these look pretty good. Incidently I found a good archive of them (and others) at http://www.servlets.com/lists/index.html sam
RE: List traffic et al
Why don't we then monitor the list for a while and figure out the exact questions that keep on coming up. We can then create an FAQ for the list and post it somewhere (maybe Jakarta Project would host it) and we can then direct all "newbies" there. We can then retain [what I perceive is] the purpose of this list, while reducing (dramataically) the volume of correspondence. How's that? Emir. -Original Message- From: Sam Newman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 2:24 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: List traffic et al Emir wrote: > List is "tomcat-user" and not "java-server-development"; thus, issues such > as getting Tomcat up and running (i.e. Tomcat configuration) ARE the purpose > of this list. > > Methinks you should get invovled into discussion more often, given as you > say that getting Tomcat up and running is no issue to you: could you > perchance share your knowledge with us? > > The lists are there to provide convenient ways of GIVING to the community, > not only TAKING... > > My 2 cents. I have no problem with "giving" to the community - its just that I've got tired of answering the same questions again and again, and if I answered every question that I had an answer for I wouldn't get any work done (like most/all of us here I do have a full time job). Because I saw the same questions coming up again and again I decided to get involved with the tomcat-book project (which has had to take a back-burner for me at the moment due to things going mental at work). The fact remains that general discussion as to servlet development DOES take place here, which leads me to believe that there may be a place for a decent developmnet mailing list. Now this (jakarta) might not be the best place to host it I'd admit, and if anyone knows of a decent list which already exists that covers servlet/jsp/taglib development, please let me know. On a related note I know for a fact that the jakarta-taglib list contains probably 50% general taglib discussion as opposed to specific stuff about the jakarta taglibs. As to the general config issues for tomcat, there still might be some scope for splitting the list - perhaps one for general issues, and one covering integration with other tools (webservers, EJB containers etc). Its just that given the volume of traffic I think the things that interest me (and the things I could mostly helpfully contribute to) are getting lost. Also the generla configuration issues are typically for the newer users, whilst more advanced issues (SSL, working with IIS/Apache etc) concern those people who are more familiar with Tomcat. By splitting the list, you would reduce traffic for those people only intersted in one side of it or the other, and those that still care about both will recieve the same number of posts (bar some potential cross-posting). This would reduce the amount of people (probably with something to say) who leave the list because of the amount of daily posts.. sam
RE: List traffic et al
well there's already [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] there's also [EMAIL PROTECTED] perhaps ppl with more development specific questions should use these? > -Original Message- > From: Sam Newman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: 03 July 2001 11:24 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: List traffic et al > > > Emir wrote: > > > List is "tomcat-user" and not "java-server-development"; > thus, issues such > > as getting Tomcat up and running (i.e. Tomcat configuration) ARE the > purpose > > of this list. > > > > Methinks you should get invovled into discussion more > often, given as you > > say that getting Tomcat up and running is no issue to you: could you > > perchance share your knowledge with us? > > > > The lists are there to provide convenient ways of GIVING to > the community, > > not only TAKING... > > > > My 2 cents. > > > I have no problem with "giving" to the community - its just > that I've got > tired of answering the same questions again and again, and if > I answered > every question that I had an answer for I wouldn't get any > work done (like > most/all of us here I do have a full time job). Because I saw the same > questions coming up again and again I decided to get involved with the > tomcat-book project (which has had to take a back-burner for me at the > moment due to things going mental at work). The fact remains > that general > discussion as to servlet development DOES take place here, > which leads me to > believe that there may be a place for a decent developmnet > mailing list. Now > this (jakarta) might not be the best place to host it I'd > admit, and if > anyone knows of a decent list which already exists that covers > servlet/jsp/taglib development, please let me know. On a > related note I know > for a fact that the jakarta-taglib list contains probably 50% > general taglib > discussion as opposed to specific stuff about the jakarta taglibs. > As to the general config issues for tomcat, there still might > be some scope > for splitting the list - perhaps one for general issues, and > one covering > integration with other tools (webservers, EJB containers > etc). Its just that > given the volume of traffic I think the things that interest > me (and the > things I could mostly helpfully contribute to) are getting > lost. Also the > generla configuration issues are typically for the newer > users, whilst more > advanced issues (SSL, working with IIS/Apache etc) concern > those people who > are more familiar with Tomcat. > By splitting the list, you would reduce traffic for those people only > intersted in one side of it or the other, and those that > still care about > both will recieve the same number of posts (bar some potential > cross-posting). This would reduce the amount of people (probably with > something to say) who leave the list because of the amount of > daily posts.. > > sam >
Re: List traffic et al
Emir wrote: > List is "tomcat-user" and not "java-server-development"; thus, issues such > as getting Tomcat up and running (i.e. Tomcat configuration) ARE the purpose > of this list. > > Methinks you should get invovled into discussion more often, given as you > say that getting Tomcat up and running is no issue to you: could you > perchance share your knowledge with us? > > The lists are there to provide convenient ways of GIVING to the community, > not only TAKING... > > My 2 cents. I have no problem with "giving" to the community - its just that I've got tired of answering the same questions again and again, and if I answered every question that I had an answer for I wouldn't get any work done (like most/all of us here I do have a full time job). Because I saw the same questions coming up again and again I decided to get involved with the tomcat-book project (which has had to take a back-burner for me at the moment due to things going mental at work). The fact remains that general discussion as to servlet development DOES take place here, which leads me to believe that there may be a place for a decent developmnet mailing list. Now this (jakarta) might not be the best place to host it I'd admit, and if anyone knows of a decent list which already exists that covers servlet/jsp/taglib development, please let me know. On a related note I know for a fact that the jakarta-taglib list contains probably 50% general taglib discussion as opposed to specific stuff about the jakarta taglibs. As to the general config issues for tomcat, there still might be some scope for splitting the list - perhaps one for general issues, and one covering integration with other tools (webservers, EJB containers etc). Its just that given the volume of traffic I think the things that interest me (and the things I could mostly helpfully contribute to) are getting lost. Also the generla configuration issues are typically for the newer users, whilst more advanced issues (SSL, working with IIS/Apache etc) concern those people who are more familiar with Tomcat. By splitting the list, you would reduce traffic for those people only intersted in one side of it or the other, and those that still care about both will recieve the same number of posts (bar some potential cross-posting). This would reduce the amount of people (probably with something to say) who leave the list because of the amount of daily posts.. sam
RE: List traffic et al
List is "tomcat-user" and not "java-server-development"; thus, issues such as getting Tomcat up and running (i.e. Tomcat configuration) ARE the purpose of this list. Methinks you should get invovled into discussion more often, given as you say that getting Tomcat up and running is no issue to you: could you perchance share your knowledge with us? The lists are there to provide convenient ways of GIVING to the community, not only TAKING... My 2 cents. Respectfully, Emir. -Original Message- From: Sam Newman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 1:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: List traffic et al Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a whole: 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects them 2.) General tomcat configuration issues 3.) Webserver integration issues I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up and running and so don't care too much about that end of things, however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to me. I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to work though all the posts sam
List traffic et al
Given the huge amount of traffic this list generates, I can rarely get involved with the discussions that take place. It occurs to me that there sems to be three major discussion themes on the list as a whole: 1.) General servlet/jsp development issues and how tomcat affects them 2.) General tomcat configuration issues 3.) Webserver integration issues I guess as documentation improves (e.g. tomcat book, work by people like Mike Slinn) points 2&3 will become less of an issue. I'm just wondering if there is any millage in perhaps splitting the list into 2 or 3 lists? Personally, I've got no issues with getting tomcat up and running and so don't care too much about that end of things, however the servlet/jsp development issues is more interesting to me. I don't have too strong an opinion on it, its just that I worry I'm missing some interesting topics because I don't have the time to work though all the posts sam
