Re: [TruthTalk] questions for Kevin . . (was playing chess . . . etc).
How 'bout BADGES? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 01:09 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] questions for Kevin . . (was playing chess . . . etc). Facts? I don't need no stinking facts! :-)
Re: [TruthTalk] questions for Kevin . . (was playing chess . . . etc).
Has everybody seen The Treasure of the Sierra Madres? There is an extended 2 disc version with an accomanying 2 hr documentary of the life and work of John Huston.(he was more than a bit of a 'bounder') - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 22:18 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] questions for Kevin . . (was playing chess . . . etc). [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Terry Clifton wrote: Don't pay too much attention to Mormons or sociologists. Neither of them have a good grasp of reality.Terry Blainerb Are we playing to the crowd here, or are we telling it like it is, with facts for back-up?=Facts? I don't need no stinking facts! Where I live, this is common knowledge. Ask Kevin. :)
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Sorry David but this is a meaningless statement in this context. There is not a single participant who'd not subscribe to what you've said hereunder. (opinion-low, Bible-high) Do you know the expression 'its like attempting to nail jello'? I will have departed TT actually 'knowing' you to have been wrong as to your understanding of Scripture and its employment in teaching and life.(NOT broadly and, on every issue) This being the case one's confidence in other matters is genuinely subject to serious questioning. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 12:10 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: Who, pray tell David, occupies the position you've described. Do you know such a person and, will you introduce her/him to us? Who? Me, Judy, Terry, Izzy, Kevin, etc. We all take the position that our opinion means little. What is important is what the Bible says. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
How interesting that those who did not 'know' this man would lay claim to 'knowing' this man beter than the man who did 'now this man. Like someone said 'you cannot picture in a picture how a picture pictures what it pictures.' - Original Message - From: Bill Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 12:24 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 A born again person whois right with God knows they are born again and right with God. If they don't know this it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying out for help. No, this man was a strong, solid, dedicated believer. His problem was, he had been deceived by people like you. Again, please just leave me and my words, thoughts, posts out of your considerations. I have ask you nicely now three times. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:14 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 How terribly sad - did somebody counsel andpray with this man who wasobviously under conviction of the Spirit? You are judginghim by "outward appearances" Bill. You can't know what goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can make a great showing after the flesh or some mayjust live in quiet desperation. I would have taken this dear man seriously enough to go overthe scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of his eternal destiny rather than give him some false assurance. A born again person whois right with God knows they are born again and right with God. If they don't know this it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying out for help. Bill writes: Yes, in Christ in his resurrection,BUT not everyone is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus Christ. What we call our "conversion experience" does happen in this lifetime, and sometimes this can beaprofound and life-altering experience; other times it is not so profound for people who have grown up in the church and spent their lifetimes worshiping the Lord. I think we are prone to base too much of our "faith" in religious experience and not trained well enough at basing it in the object of that faith: Jesus Christ. I watched a saintlyninety year old elder of our church break down and weep because he did not know forsure if he had been "born again." He had grown up in the church and could notremember a time that he did not believed in Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of those earth-shaking conversion experiences that others had had. We, the church, had placed so much emphasis on that "born again experience" that we had misled godly people into doubting their salvation. The weight of the world was upon this man's shoulders, and he could not withstand the weight of it. He was as godly as anyone you would ever meet, had served the Lord faithfully his whole life, yet believe in "spiritual death" and the necessity to be "born again" and thus could not place his finger on a point in his life when he stopped being spiritually dead and started being aborn again believer. We did that to him -- not theLord.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
A large foghorn sounds indicating that once again David has 'misinterpreted' thus one more time demonstrating that while one may exhibit lucidity; withing that lucidity one may be (in)credible.. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 12:47 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 Judy wrote: How terribly sad - did somebody counsel and pray with this man who was obviously under conviction of the Spirit? ... A born again person who is right with God knows they are born again and right with God. If they don't know this it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying out for help. For what it's worth, I had kind of the same reaction to reading this. I hear of long term Christian men growing up in the church but never having had experienced being born again. I read a pastor's testimony once who had pastored a very large traditional church. He suddenly experienced the new birth, and did not know what to do. He told his congregation from the pulpit that he had been a Christian all his life, earned a doctorate in theology, pastored for many years, but he had never been born again. He gave his testimony. It completely split the church. Many could not fathom how such a scholar of the Bible, such a good man, could not have been born again. Many actually believed that he had lost his mind and gone insane. About half the church stayed with him, but the other half just could not understand. I don't know this man that Bill mentioned. Bill did. That means Bill has a better foundation from which to speak on this issue, but it does seem to me that the Lord was dealing with him. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Sometimes not even at the 'last read'. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 18:26 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 JD wrote: Do you believe God gives you the writers intent or not via the indwelling Spirit? That has been your stated view in the past. Yes, but not at first read every time. Go back and read Terry's post on this. He said it better than I have. According to when the Spirit reveals it and we are ready to hear it, he reveals it to us. Now I will say that sometimes he uses our brothers and sisters to help bring us there faster. This is part of his purpose, that we might receive one another all the more. But to think that we are dependent upon our brothers and sisters in order to approach God or know the things of God, that is going too far. God will break that right away. JD wrote: You have mentioned on several occasions that you have no formal education in religion -- implying (IMO -- correct me if I am wrong) that with you and the Spirit revealing the mind of God, formal education is really not needed neither is group discussion except for the above occasion: Wrong implication. I implied no such thing. The times I mentioned such was to point out my inadequecies in communicating with those who have been formally trained. JD wrote: What you mean to say in the above is this: God has given you DM, the intent of the scriptures in question and, if someone disagrees with your not-interpretation (read: revealed truth), then you can sit down, discuss the differences and, if the listening student has the heart, he will be led by the Spirit to the very same conclusion. Correct? Not exactly, but sometimes. There are some issues I know infallibly. I have pointed out many times that I know and speak infallibly about Jesus being the Messiah. Thus far, it seems to me that you and Lance avoid this topic. I would like to know if you consider it to be infallible when you say that Jesus is Lord? Is that statement subject to error in your viewpoint or not? If it is not subject to error, then is it not infallible? So when discussing issues that I know to be infallible, then, yes, you have the right perspective there. I do not discuss in order to learn from the other person, but to help them see what I see. Most things, however, I do not know in this way. In most things, I am still the student, so discussion takes on a purpose whereby I can sort out my own biases and prejudices that might cloud my perspective of the truth. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Humanity of Jesus
From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]David Miller wrote:Consider the next one too:Hebrews 2:9-18(9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower thanthe angels for the suffering of death, crowned with gloryand honour; that he by the grace of God should tastedeath for every man. (10) For it became him, for whomare all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing manysons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfectthrough sufferings. (11) For both he that sanctifieth and theywho are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is notashamed to call them brethren, (12) Saying, I will declare thyname unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I singpraise unto thee. (13) And again, I will put my trust in him.And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.(14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh andblood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that throughdeath he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is,the devil; (15) And deliver them who through fear of death wereall their lifetime subject to bondage. (16) For verily he took noton him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.(17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like untohis brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest inthings pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of thepeople. (18) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Judy wrote:Remember David that this is written AFTER the cross ie "he thatsanctifieth and they who are sanctified" - New Birth - Holy Spirit - we are one in the same way that He and the Father were oneduring His earthly ministry. Sorry, Judy, but you are reading with rose colored glasses. Read the passage. Let it speak to you. I don't disagree with what you are saying, but that is not the point of this passage. This passage is trying to say that Jesus and me are of the same race, according to the flesh. Read the whole passage several times. Follow his thinking as he leads us from the idea of Jesus being made lower than the angels, to suffer, to taste death, to partake of flesh and blood, that he might destroy him that had the power of death, showing us that his NATURE was not that of angels, but of the SEED of Abraham... BEING MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN that he might make reconciliation for sins... why? because sin is in the flesh (Romans 7). Go back and read the whole passage five times. Meditate on it. Let it speak to you. Judy wrote:Yes he had a flesh and blood body with the same limitationsas the ones we have only he was not "just like us" David. The difference is one of heart/holiness and God gave the Spirit without measure to Him (John 3:34) We have nothinglike that going on... and the Spirit quickens mortal bodies. True enough, but now you are talking about his spirit. He was unique in his spirit, he was the Son of God, but in his flesh, that is what he shared with us. jt: Have you forgotten David that I believe we were originally created in God's image asspirit beings who have a soul and live in a body?. His obedience and faithfulness enabled him to be given the Spirit without measure. Yes, he was different in this way. As I said before, I am not taking away from his uniqueness (the monogenes that we talked about before). jt: He was given the Spirit without measure before he was obedient and faithful; he was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb and anointed for ministry at His Baptism at the River Jordan. We are also given our "measure" before we are obedient and faithful because He has been promised. Judy wrote:His mind didn't have to be renewed - at the age of 12yrsHe knew more than the teachers at the temple and thereis no record that he was ever physically sick. It doesn't say that he actually knew more than the teachers at the temple, but he surely knew enough to discuss with them. There is a record that he experienced sickeness in the writings of Isaiah, but I would have to get into the Hebrew with you if you want to learn that. Let me know if you are interested. jt: Well they were astonished at his insight and they were asking him questions. Yes I would be interested in any scripture that says Jesus was sick - are you sure it is not our infirmities and sickness that he took upon himself?. None of what you say here discounts the teaching of Scripture that Jesus' flesh was the flesh of man, descended from Abraham and David, the same kind of flesh that every man had, which brought with it weakness and temptations. jt: I don't believe the cause of our weakness and temptation was ever in Jesus or would have been willing to approach him other than when he was at a total disadvantage after fasting for so long. Judy wrote:David I still do not accept that "likeness" is same asthe real, or even that it was necessary that He would
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
Knowing someone after the spirit is not the same as having tea and coffee for 20yrs with them Lance. Paul said "I determined to know nothing amongst you but Jesus Christ and Him crucified" - what die he mean? When he judged the man in sin he said he was absent physically but with them in spirit. You are residing at a different place. I am speaking of something you don't appear to be able to relate to. judyt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:55:10 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How interesting that those who did not 'know' this man would lay claim to 'knowing' this man beter than the man who did 'now this man. Like someone said 'you cannot picture in a picture how a picture pictures what it pictures.' From: Bill Taylor A born again person whois right with God knows they are born again and right with God. If they don't know this it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying out for help. No, this man was a strong, solid, dedicated believer. His problem was, he had been deceived by people like you. Again, please just leave me and my words, thoughts, posts out of your considerations. I have ask you nicely now three times. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:14 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 How terribly sad - did somebody counsel andpray with this man who wasobviously under conviction of the Spirit? You are judginghim by "outward appearances" Bill. You can't know what goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can make a great showing after the flesh or some mayjust live in quiet desperation. I would have taken this dear man seriously enough to go overthe scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of his eternal destiny rather than give him some false assurance. A born again person whois right with God knows they are born again and right with God. If they don't know this it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying out for help. Bill writes: Yes, in Christ in his resurrection,BUT not everyone is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus Christ. What we call our "conversion experience" does happen in this lifetime, and sometimes this can beaprofound and life-altering experience; other times it is not so profound for people who have grown up in the church and spent their lifetimes worshiping the Lord. I think we are prone to base too much of our "faith" in religious experience and not trained well enough at basing it in the object of that faith: Jesus Christ. I watched a saintlyninety year old elder of our church break down and weep because he did not know forsure if he had been "born again." He had grown up in the church and could notremember a time that he did not believed in Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of those earth-shaking conversion experiences that others had had. We, the church, had placed so much emphasis on that "born again experience" that we had misled godly people into doubting their salvation. The weight of the world was upon this man's shoulders, and he could not withstand the weight of it. He was as godly as anyone you would ever meet, had served the Lord faithfully his whole life, yet believe in "spiritual death" and the necessity to be "born again" and thus could not place his finger on a point in his life when he stopped being spiritually dead and started being aborn again believer. We did that to him -- not theLord.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The difference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning. You don't seem to think that is possible. By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as giving you an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instruct us on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say "It is written" and as the saying goes "take it to the Bank" From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sorry David but this is a meaningless statement in this context. There is not a single participant who'd not subscribe to what you've said hereunder. (opinion-low, Bible-high) Do you know the _expression_ 'its like attempting to nail jello'? I will have departed TT actually 'knowing' you to have been wrong as to your understanding of Scripture and its employment in teaching and life.(NOT broadly and, on every issue) This being the case one's confidence in other matters is genuinely subject to serious questioning. From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: July 21, 2005 12:10Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: Who, pray tell David, occupies the position you've described. Do you know such a person and, will you introduce her/him to us? Who? Me, Judy, Terry, Izzy, Kevin, etc. We all take the position that our opinion means little. What is important is what the Bible says. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
Jt speaks of 'knowing someone after the spirit'
(small 's' representing the human spirit I assume?PS this tripartate body, soul,
spirit thingy is an errant understanding) Jt further suggests that she is
speaking of something that I 'don't appear to be able to relate to'. ('appear'
being the operative word here so, she's not sure that I don't) IFF YOU HAD THIS
ABILITY TO KNOW AFTER THE SPIRIT (I'm suggesting that you don't) then, you would
have perceived Debbie, Caroline Jonathan differently. (David did so -
perhaps HE does have it) Most assuredly Bill, John, Garyand Izzie have it.
So then, it'd appear that just leaves you and I? Wouldn't that be just aweful?
(for you I mean, to be linked with me while being separated from the
others?)
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: July 22, 2005 06:56
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John
16:13,14
Knowing someone after the spirit is not the same as
having tea and coffee for 20yrs with them Lance.
Paul said "I determined to know nothing amongst you
but Jesus Christ and Him crucified" - what die he mean?
When he judged the man in sin he said he was absent
physically but with them in spirit. You are residing at a
different place. I am speaking of something you
don't appear to be able to relate to. judyt
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:55:10 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
How interesting that those who did not 'know'
this man would lay claim to 'knowing' this man beter than the man who did
'now this man.
Like someone said 'you cannot picture in a
picture how a picture pictures what it pictures.'
From: Bill Taylor
A born again person
whois
right with God knows they are born again and right with God. If they
don't know this
it is a huge red
flag - and this man was crying out for help.
No, this man was a
strong, solid, dedicated believer. His problem was, he had been deceived
by people like you. Again, please just leave me and my words, thoughts,
posts out of your considerations. I have ask you nicely now three
times.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:14
AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] John
16:13,14
How terribly
sad - did somebody counsel andpray with this man who
wasobviously under conviction of the Spirit?
You are
judginghim by "outward appearances" Bill. You can't know
what goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can make
a great showing
after the flesh or some mayjust live in quiet desperation. I
would have taken this dear man seriously
enough to go
overthe scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of his
eternal destiny rather than give him some
false
assurance.
A born again
person whois right with God knows they are born again and right with
God. If they don't know this
it is a huge red
flag - and this man was crying out for help.
Bill writes:
Yes, in Christ in
his resurrection,BUT not everyone is indwelt by the Holy Spirit,
that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus Christ. What we call our
"conversion experience" does happen in this lifetime, and sometimes this
can beaprofound and life-altering experience; other times it
is not so profound for people who have grown up in the church and spent
their lifetimes worshiping the Lord. I think we are
prone to base too much of our "faith" in religious experience and not
trained well enough at basing it in the object of that faith: Jesus
Christ.
I watched a
saintlyninety year old elder of our church break down and weep
because he did not know forsure if he had been "born again." He
had grown up in the church and could notremember a time that he
did not believed in Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of those
earth-shaking conversion experiences that others had had. We, the
church, had placed so much emphasis on that "born again experience" that
we had misled godly people into doubting their salvation. The weight of
the world was upon this man's shoulders, and he could not withstand the
weight of it. He was as godly as anyone you would ever meet, had served
the Lord faithfully his whole life, yet believe in "spiritual death" and
the necessity to be "born again" and thus could not place his finger on
a point in his life
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:18:21 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Jt speaks of 'knowing someone after the spirit'
(small 's' representing the human spirit I assume?
PS this tripartate body, soul, spirit thingy is
an errant understanding)
jt: Yes Lance, when your body goes down to the
dust it is the spirit that returns to God who gave it.
PS Your errant understanding is in the Bible
and it is not written in code, it is spelled out for those who have eyes to
see/ears to hear.
Jt further suggests that she is speaking of
something that I 'don't appear to be able to relate to'.
('appear' being the operative word here so, she's
not sure that I don't)
jt: I was attempting to be kind Lance - I am
sure that you dont.
IFF YOU HAD THIS ABILITY TO KNOW AFTER THE SPIRIT
(I'm suggesting that you don't)
then, you would have perceived Debbie, Caroline
Jonathan differently.
jt: Why? What didn't I perceive about
them that I should have?
(David did so - perhaps HE does have it) Most
assuredly Bill, John, Garyand Izzie have it.
jt: Since you are unable to relate to it or to
discern the spiritual personally -how would you know who has it
Lance?
So then, it'd appear that just leaves you and I?
Wouldn't that be just aweful? (for you I mean, to be linked with me while
being separated from the others?)
jt: Whatever!! I could comfort myself
with the idea that you won't be around long couldn't I :)
From: Judy Taylor
Knowing someone after the spirit is not the same as
having tea and coffee for 20yrs with them Lance.
Paul said "I determined to know nothing amongst you
but Jesus Christ and Him crucified" - what die he mean?
When he judged the man in sin he said he was absent
physically but with them in spirit. You are residing at a
different place. I am speaking of something
you don't appear to be able to relate to. judyt
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:55:10 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
How interesting that those who did not 'know'
this man would lay claim to 'knowing' this man beter than the man who did
'now this man.
Like someone said 'you cannot picture in a
picture how a picture pictures what it pictures.'
From: Bill Taylor
A born again
person whois right with God knows they are born again and right with
God. If they don't know this
it is a huge red
flag - and this man was crying out for help.
No, this man was a
strong, solid, dedicated believer. His problem was, he had been deceived
by people like you. Again, please just leave me and my words, thoughts,
posts out of your considerations. I have ask you nicely now three
times.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Judy Taylor
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005
10:14 AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] John
16:13,14
How terribly
sad - did somebody counsel andpray with this man who
wasobviously under conviction of the Spirit?
You are
judginghim by "outward appearances" Bill. You can't know
what goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can make
a great showing
after the flesh or some mayjust live in quiet desperation.
I would have taken this dear man seriously
enough to go
overthe scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of
his eternal destiny rather than give him some
false
assurance.
A born again
person whois right with God knows they are born again and right with
God. If they don't know this
it is a huge red
flag - and this man was crying out for
help.
Bill writes:
Yes, in Christ
in his resurrection,BUT not everyone is indwelt by the Holy
Spirit, that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus Christ. What we
call our "conversion experience" does happen in this lifetime, and
sometimes this can beaprofound and life-altering
experience; other times it is not so profound for people who have
grown up in the church and spent their lifetimes worshiping the
Lord. I think we are
prone to base too much of our "faith" in religious experience and not
trained well enough at basing it in the object of that faith: Jesus
Christ.
I watched a
saintlyninety year old elder of our church break down and weep
because he did not know forsure if he had been "born
Re: [TruthTalk] Humanity of Jesus
What a genuine conversation between two thoughtful persons! Perhaps this shall continue for the benefit of all. By the by neither is going to change their belief on this matter or, on any matter of substance. Each will just move along having established the 'truthfulness' of their account of Jesus' humanity.One wonders what conclusions ought to be drawn from such an outcome? As to the matter of 'everyone..being assumed and resurrected..worse than the immaculate conception and just as heretical'. THIS IS A FALSE TEACHING BY BOTH JUDY AND DAVID. However, they shall never be moved from this apprehension. One wonders what conclusions ought to be drawn from such an outcome? David is always graciously inviting persons to demonstrate through Scripture that he is wrong suggesting he'll change when shown. He has been 'shown'; he did not change. Why? Belief has priority!. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 06:47 Subject: [TruthTalk] Humanity of Jesus From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]David Miller wrote:Consider the next one too:Hebrews 2:9-18(9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower thanthe angels for the suffering of death, crowned with gloryand honour; that he by the grace of God should tastedeath for every man. (10) For it became him, for whomare all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing manysons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfectthrough sufferings. (11) For both he that sanctifieth and theywho are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is notashamed to call them brethren, (12) Saying, I will declare thyname unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I singpraise unto thee. (13) And again, I will put my trust in him.And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.(14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh andblood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that throughdeath he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is,the devil; (15) And deliver them who through fear of death wereall their lifetime subject to bondage. (16) For verily he took noton him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.(17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like untohis brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest inthings pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of thepeople. (18) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Judy wrote:Remember David that this is written AFTER the cross ie "he thatsanctifieth and they who are sanctified" - New Birth - Holy Spirit - we are one in the same way that He and the Father were oneduring His earthly ministry. Sorry, Judy, but you are reading with rose colored glasses. Read the passage. Let it speak to you. I don't disagree with what you are saying, but that is not the point of this passage. This passage is trying to say that Jesus and me are of the same race, according to the flesh. Read the whole passage several times. Follow his thinking as he leads us from the idea of Jesus being made lower than the angels, to suffer, to taste death, to partake of flesh and blood, that he might destroy him that had the power of death, showing us that his NATURE was not that of angels, but of the SEED of Abraham... BEING MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN that he might make reconciliation for sins... why? because sin is in the flesh (Romans 7). Go back and read the whole passage five times. Meditate on it. Let it speak to you. Judy wrote:Yes he had a flesh and blood body with the same limitationsas the ones we have only he was not "just like us" David. The difference is one of heart/holiness and God gave the Spirit without measure to Him (John 3:34) We have nothinglike that going on... and the Spirit quickens mortal bodies. True enough, but now you are talking about his spirit. He was unique in his spirit, he was the Son of God, but in his flesh, that is what he shared with us. jt: Have you forgotten David that I believe we were originally created in God's image asspirit beings who have a soul and live in a body?. His obedience and faithfulness enabled him to be given the Spirit without measure. Yes, he was different in this way. As I said before, I am not taking away from his uniqueness (the monogenes that we talked about before). jt: He was given the Spirit without measure before he was obedient and faithful; he was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb and anointed for ministry at His Baptism at the River Jordan. We are also given our "measure" before we are obedient and faithful because He has been promised. Judy wrote:His mind didn't have to be renewed - at the age of
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
That IS true so, be comforted.
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: July 22, 2005 07:27
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John
16:13,14
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:18:21 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Jt speaks of 'knowing someone after the spirit'
(small 's' representing the human spirit I assume?
PS this tripartate body, soul, spirit thingy is
an errant understanding)
jt: Yes Lance, when your body goes down to
the dust it is the spirit that returns to God who gave it.
PS Your errant understanding is in the Bible
and it is not written in code, it is spelled out for those who have eyes to
see/ears to hear.
Jt further suggests that she is speaking of
something that I 'don't appear to be able to relate to'.
('appear' being the operative word here so,
she's not sure that I don't)
jt: I was attempting to be kind Lance - I am
sure that you dont.
IFF YOU HAD THIS ABILITY TO KNOW AFTER THE
SPIRIT (I'm suggesting that you don't)
then, you would have perceived Debbie, Caroline
Jonathan differently.
jt: Why? What didn't I perceive about
them that I should have?
(David did so - perhaps HE does have it) Most
assuredly Bill, John, Garyand Izzie have it.
jt: Since you are unable to relate to it or
to discern the spiritual personally -how would you know who has it
Lance?
So then, it'd appear that just leaves you and
I? Wouldn't that be just aweful? (for you I mean, to be linked with me while
being separated from the others?)
jt: Whatever!! I could comfort myself
with the idea that you won't be around long couldn't I :)
From: Judy Taylor
Knowing someone after the spirit is not the same
as having tea and coffee for 20yrs with them Lance.
Paul said "I determined to know nothing amongst
you but Jesus Christ and Him crucified" - what die he mean?
When he judged the man in sin he said he was
absent physically but with them in spirit. You are residing at
a
different place. I am speaking of something
you don't appear to be able to relate to. judyt
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:55:10 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
How interesting that those who did not
'know' this man would lay claim to 'knowing' this man beter than the man
who did 'now this man.
Like someone said 'you cannot picture in a
picture how a picture pictures what it pictures.'
From: Bill
Taylor
A born again
person whois right with God knows they are born again and right with
God. If they don't know this
it is a huge red
flag - and this man was crying out for
help.
No, this man was
a strong, solid, dedicated believer. His problem was, he had been
deceived by people like you. Again, please just leave me and my words,
thoughts, posts out of your considerations. I have ask you nicely now
three times.
Bill
- Original Message -
From:
Judy Taylor
To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005
10:14 AM
Subject: [TruthTalk] John
16:13,14
How terribly
sad - did somebody counsel andpray with this man who
wasobviously under conviction of the
Spirit?
You are
judginghim by "outward appearances" Bill. You can't know
what goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can
make
a great
showing after the flesh or some mayjust live in quiet
desperation. I would have taken this dear man seriously
enough to go
overthe scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of
his eternal destiny rather than give him some
false
assurance.
A born again
person whois right with God knows they are born again and right
with God. If they don't know this
it is a huge
red flag - and this man was crying out for
help.
Bill writes:
Yes, in Christ
in his resurrection,BUT not everyone is indwelt by the Holy
Spirit, that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus Christ. What
we call our "conversion experience" does happen in this lifetime,
and sometimes this can beaprofound and
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Indeed Judy, one can take that to the bank. However, often your understanding of these selfsame Scriptures are not 'bankable'. I'm watching the conversation between you and David. This then is proof positive. You would agree, would you not that ONE OF YOU IS MISAPPREHENDING THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE REGARDING THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST?. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 07:10 Subject: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say "It is written" and as the saying goes "take it to the Bank" From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sorry David but this is a meaningless statement in this context. There is not a single participant who'd not subscribe to what you've said hereunder. (opinion-low, Bible-high) Do you know the _expression_ 'its like attempting to nail jello'? I will have departed TT actually 'knowing' you to have been wrong as to your understanding of Scripture and its employment in teaching and life.(NOT broadly and, on every issue) This being the case one's confidence in other matters is genuinely subject to serious questioning. From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: July 21, 2005 12:10Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: Who, pray tell David, occupies the position you've described. Do you know such a person and, will you introduce her/him to us? Who? Me, Judy, Terry, Izzy, Kevin, etc. We all take the position that our opinion means little. What is important is what the Bible says. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
IFF you are, in reality, mistaken concerning something so central as THE NATURE OF JESUS' HUMANITY (or David is) would that lead one to conclude that one of you is walking in the darkness (self confessed darkness, too) Where Judy, is the Spirit Who leads YOU (or David) into all truth on a matter so central to the Gospel? (I may just lurk for the outcome of this one) Will you confess, repent and enlighten all of those (family and friends) you've lead astray? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 06:59 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The difference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning. You don't seem to think that is possible. By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as giving you an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instruct us on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Humanity of Jesus
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:34:29 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What a genuine conversation between two thoughtful persons! Perhaps this shall continue for the benefit of all. By the by neither is going to change their belief on this matter or, on any matter of substance. Each will just move along having established the 'truthfulness' of their account of Jesus' humanity.One wonders what conclusions ought to be drawn from such an outcome? jt: Just a suggestion Lance - but why don't you submit a third account for consideration. The crux of the matter for me is holiness. I know DM believes in sanctification post resurrection and can't fathom why the insistance that Jesus could not be a "likeness" As to the matter of 'everyone..being assumed and resurrected..worse than the immaculate conception and just as heretical'. THIS IS A FALSE TEACHING BY BOTH JUDY AND DAVID. However, they shall never be moved from this apprehension. One wonders what conclusions ought to be drawn from such an outcome? jt: Lance, God is not going to assume anyone (demons and all), into heaven. Your doctrine has blinded you to the reality. Do you think spirits of infirmity etc. were only a first century phenomenon? David is always graciously inviting persons to demonstrate through Scripture that he is wrong suggesting he'll change when shown. He has been 'shown'; he did not change. Why? Belief has priority!. Not so, apparently he has not yet seen it to his satisfication.Have patience and give him time, he is wearing a lot of hats. I have no doubt that one of us will change if we both determine to continue on to follow the Lord. From: Judy Taylor From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]David Miller wrote:Consider the next one too:Hebrews 2:9-18(9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower thanthe angels for the suffering of death, crowned with gloryand honour; that he by the grace of God should tastedeath for every man. (10) For it became him, for whomare all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing manysons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfectthrough sufferings. (11) For both he that sanctifieth and theywho are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is notashamed to call them brethren, (12) Saying, I will declare thyname unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I singpraise unto thee. (13) And again, I will put my trust in him.And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.(14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh andblood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that throughdeath he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is,the devil; (15) And deliver them who through fear of death wereall their lifetime subject to bondage. (16) For verily he took noton him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.(17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like untohis brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest inthings pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of thepeople. (18) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Judy wrote:Remember David that this is written AFTER the cross ie "he thatsanctifieth and they who are sanctified" - New Birth - Holy Spirit - we are one in the same way that He and the Father were oneduring His earthly ministry. Sorry, Judy, but you are reading with rose colored glasses. Read the passage. Let it speak to you. I don't disagree with what you are saying, but that is not the point of this passage. This passage is trying to say that Jesus and me are of the same race, according to the flesh. Read the whole passage several times. Follow his thinking as he leads us from the idea of Jesus being made lower than the angels, to suffer, to taste death, to partake of flesh and blood, that he might destroy him that had the power of death, showing us that his NATURE was not that of angels, but of the SEED of Abraham... BEING MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN that he might make reconciliation for sins... why? because sin is in the flesh (Romans 7). Go back and read the whole passage five times. Meditate on it. Let it speak to you. Judy wrote:Yes he had a flesh and blood body with the same limitationsas the ones we have only he was not "just like us" David. The difference is one of heart/holiness and God gave the Spirit without measure to Him (John 3:34) We have nothinglike that going on... and the Spirit quickens mortal bodies. True enough, but now you are talking about his spirit. He was unique in his spirit, he was the Son of God, but in
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
I am a whole lot more concerned with the "Risen Christ" Lance - I don't need to have a "weak in the flesh" Christ or an "eternal son" Christ. He did defeat principalities, powers, and wicked spirits and he made a show of them openly. He has handed us the victory so now it is up to us to walk in it. Jesus overcame in the wilderness by using the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. Now Lance, if I were going to take what you write seriously I would have to go to the Lord and tell Him that the Comforter He sent me to lead me into all truth is not doing His job and helping me because after 25+ years I am still not able to apprehend that for which I am apprehended and so therefore my Sword is useless. Lance said so. jt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:39:58 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed Judy, one can take that to the bank. However, often your understanding of these selfsame Scriptures are not 'bankable'. I'm watching the conversation between you and David. This then is proof positive. You would agree, would you not that ONE OF YOU IS MISAPPREHENDING THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE REGARDING THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST?. From: Judy Taylor Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say "It is written" and as the saying goes "take it to the Bank" From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sorry David but this is a meaningless statement in this context. There is not a single participant who'd not subscribe to what you've said hereunder. (opinion-low, Bible-high) Do you know the _expression_ 'its like attempting to nail jello'? I will have departed TT actually 'knowing' you to have been wrong as to your understanding of Scripture and its employment in teaching and life.(NOT broadly and, on every issue) This being the case one's confidence in other matters is genuinely subject to serious questioning. From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: July 21, 2005 12:10Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: Who, pray tell David, occupies the position you've described. Do you know such a person and, will you introduce her/him to us? Who? Me, Judy, Terry, Izzy, Kevin, etc. We all take the position that our opinion means little. What is important is what the Bible says. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
He (the Lord) is more likely to be attentive should you say that Bill Taylor, John Smithson and David Miller said so. Thereafter (I am being serious) you might reflect more humility within your apprehension of 'Holiness'. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 07:59 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 I am a whole lot more concerned with the "Risen Christ" Lance - I don't need to have a "weak in the flesh" Christ or an "eternal son" Christ. He did defeat principalities, powers, and wicked spirits and he made a show of them openly. He has handed us the victory so now it is up to us to walk in it. Jesus overcame in the wilderness by using the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. Now Lance, if I were going to take what you write seriously I would have to go to the Lord and tell Him that the Comforter He sent me to lead me into all truth is not doing His job and helping me because after 25+ years I am still not able to apprehend that for which I am apprehended and so therefore my Sword is useless. Lance said so. jt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:39:58 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed Judy, one can take that to the bank. However, often your understanding of these selfsame Scriptures are not 'bankable'. I'm watching the conversation between you and David. This then is proof positive. You would agree, would you not that ONE OF YOU IS MISAPPREHENDING THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE REGARDING THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST?. From: Judy Taylor Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say "It is written" and as the saying goes "take it to the Bank" From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sorry David but this is a meaningless statement in this context. There is not a single participant who'd not subscribe to what you've said hereunder. (opinion-low, Bible-high) Do you know the _expression_ 'its like attempting to nail jello'? I will have departed TT actually 'knowing' you to have been wrong as to your understanding of Scripture and its employment in teaching and life.(NOT broadly and, on every issue) This being the case one's confidence in other matters is genuinely subject to serious questioning. From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: July 21, 2005 12:10Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: Who, pray tell David, occupies the position you've described. Do you know such a person and, will you introduce her/him to us? Who? Me, Judy, Terry, Izzy, Kevin, etc. We all take the position that our opinion means little. What is important is what the Bible says. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:44:39 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF you are, in reality, mistaken concerning something so central as THE NATURE OF JESUS' HUMANITY (or David is) would that lead one to conclude that one of you is walking in the darkness (self confessed darkness, too) jt: Tell me Lance why the nature of Jesus' humanity is so central? If it is so central why did Paul waste so much of the Lord's time preaching the "centrality of the cross" rather than the centrality of Jesus' humanity? Where Judy, is the Spirit Who leads YOU (or David) into all truth on a matter so central to the Gospel? jt: Please tell me why Jesus humanity is so central for you? I accept that He took upon himself the "likeness" of man but we must face the fact that he was ALWAYS holy and without spot and we are not. Have you ever considered this Lance? I mean really thought about it. (I may just lurk for the outcome of this one) Will you confess, repent and enlighten all of those (family and friends) you've lead astray? When God or someone with more than just an opinion shows me in His Word how and where I have been leading ppl astray. From: Judy Taylor How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The difference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning. You don't seem to think that is possible. By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as giving you an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instruct us on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] questions for Kevin . . (was playing chess . . . etc).
Little Rascals -Original Message-From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 05:19:12 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] questions for Kevin . . (was playing chess . . . etc). How 'bout BADGES? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 01:09 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] questions for Kevin . . (was playing chess . . . etc). Facts? I don't need no stinking facts! :-)
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I see in the writings below is a man who knows full well that he cannot insist on Spirit revealed truth "on every occasion" and, yet, insistsupon the infallible belief of infallible understanding -- I guess because he really believes that his thinking HAS to line up with truth or he is lost. And so the Spirit gives infallible understanding (interpretation) the first time, sometimes -- but every time if it concerns certain critical but unnamed doctrines. On other occasions, maturity and joint participation (fellowship) give rise to correct understanding -- but only occasionally, God putting a stop to it if appears that one is getting dependent upon such circumstances. And if I have a doctrine that I claim is from God and DM has an opposing teaching, DM is the preferred teaching because his is infallible while S mithson's teaching, using just as much if not more scripture is wrong because, well, because it does not agree with the infallible version. Smithson can't be the one who is right if it conflicts with Miller's infallible understanding. That is the teaching in a NUTshell, as I see it. And a truly understandable teaching it is !! JD == What is your point, John? :) Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Apparently we have different definitions of "humility"Lance. Let's leave others out of this, I am talking with you here. God's definition of humility and a humble and contrite spirit is to say what He says about an issue. That is to agree with him and to call dirt what He calls it. Being holy is not getting around with ones head to the ground or living hidden in a monastery somewhere. God defines humility or a humble and contrite spirit as dying to the old proud flesh and agreeing with Him no matter what the cost which is what Jesus did in the face of religious leaders who did not have the same interpretation even thoughthey satin the seat of Moses. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:06:24 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He (the Lord) is more likely to be attentive should you say that Bill Taylor, John Smithson and David Miller said so. Thereafter (I am being serious) you might reflect more humility within your apprehension of 'Holiness'. From: Judy Taylor I am a whole lot more concerned with the "Risen Christ" Lance - I don't need to have a "weak in the flesh" Christ or an "eternal son" Christ. He did defeat principalities, powers, and wicked spirits and he made a show of them openly. He has handed us the victory so now it is up to us to walk in it. Jesus overcame in the wilderness by using the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. Now Lance, if I were going to take what you write seriously I would have to go to the Lord and tell Him that the Comforter He sent me to lead me into all truth is not doing His job and helping me because after 25+ years I am still not able to apprehend that for which I am apprehended and so therefore my Sword is useless. Lance said so. jt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:39:58 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed Judy, one can take that to the bank. However, often your understanding of these selfsame Scriptures are not 'bankable'. I'm watching the conversation between you and David. This then is proof positive. You would agree, would you not that ONE OF YOU IS MISAPPREHENDING THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE REGARDING THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST?. From: Judy Taylor Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say "It is written" and as the saying goes "take it to the Bank" From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sorry David but this is a meaningless statement in this context. There is not a single participant who'd not subscribe to what you've said hereunder. (opinion-low, Bible-high) Do you know the _expression_ 'its like attempting to nail jello'? I will have departed TT actually 'knowing' you to have been wrong as to your understanding of Scripture and its employment in teaching and life.(NOT broadly and, on every issue) This being the case one's confidence in other matters is genuinely subject to serious questioning. From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: July 21, 2005 12:10Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: Who, pray tell David, occupies the position you've described. Do you know such a person and, will you introduce her/him to us? Who? Me, Judy, Terry, Izzy, Kevin, etc. We all take the position that our opinion means little. What is important is what the Bible says. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Napoleon Bonaparte may not have been a great theologian, but I like the way he stated it. "I know men, and Jesus Christ was no mere man." === Judy Taylor wrote: On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:44:39 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF you are, in reality, mistaken concerning something so central as THE NATURE OF JESUS' HUMANITY (or David is) would that lead one to conclude that one of you is walking in the darkness (self confessed darkness, too) jt: Tell me Lance why the nature of Jesus' humanity is so central? If it is so central why did Paul waste so much of the Lord's time preaching the "centrality of the cross" rather than the centrality of Jesus' humanity? Where Judy, is the Spirit Who leads YOU (or David) into all truth on a matter so central to the Gospel? jt: Please tell me why Jesus humanity is so central for you? I accept that He took upon himself the "likeness" of man but we must face the fact that he was ALWAYS holy and without spot and we are not. Have you ever considered this Lance? I mean really thought about it. (I may just lurk for the outcome of this one) Will you confess, repent and enlighten all of those (family and friends) you've lead astray? When God or someone with more than just an opinion shows me in His Word how and where I have been leading ppl astray. From: Judy Taylor How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The difference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning. You don't seem to think that is possible. By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as giving you an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instruct us on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
I like it too Terry - He had a unique way of putting it :) Thanks On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:20:14 -0500 Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Napoleon Bonaparte may not have been a great theologian, but I like the way he stated it. "I know men, and Jesus Christ was no mere man."===Judy Taylor wrote: On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:44:39 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF you are, in reality, mistaken concerning something so central as THE NATURE OF JESUS' HUMANITY (or David is) would that lead one to conclude that one of you is walking in the darkness (self confessed darkness, too) jt: Tell me Lance why the nature of Jesus' humanity is so central? If it is so central why did Paul waste so much of the Lord's time preaching the "centrality of the cross" rather than the centrality of Jesus' humanity? Where Judy, is the Spirit Who leads YOU (or David) into all truth on a matter so central to the Gospel? jt: Please tell me why Jesus humanity is so central for you? I accept that He took upon himself the "likeness" of man but we must face the fact that he was ALWAYS holy and without spot and we are not. Have you ever considered this Lance? I mean really thought about it. (I may just lurk for the outcome of this one) Will you confess, repent and enlighten all of those (family and friends) you've lead astray? When God or someone with more than just an opinion shows me in His Word how and where I have been leading ppl astray. From: Judy Taylor How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The difference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning. You don't seem to think that is possible. By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as giving you an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instruct us on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
David couldn't have laced his comments with more Scripture, Judy! - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 08:06 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:44:39 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF you are, in reality, mistaken concerning something so central as THE NATURE OF JESUS' HUMANITY (or David is) would that lead one to conclude that one of you is walking in the darkness (self confessed darkness, too) jt: Tell me Lance why the nature of Jesus' humanity is so central? If it is so central why did Paul waste so much of the Lord's time preaching the "centrality of the cross" rather than the centrality of Jesus' humanity? Where Judy, is the Spirit Who leads YOU (or David) into all truth on a matter so central to the Gospel? jt: Please tell me why Jesus humanity is so central for you? I accept that He took upon himself the "likeness" of man but we must face the fact that he was ALWAYS holy and without spot and we are not. Have you ever considered this Lance? I mean really thought about it. (I may just lurk for the outcome of this one) Will you confess, repent and enlighten all of those (family and friends) you've lead astray? When God or someone with more than just an opinion shows me in His Word how and where I have been leading ppl astray. From: Judy Taylor How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The difference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning. You don't seem to think that is possible. By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as giving you an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instruct us on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
'Faster than a speeding bullett, more powerful than a locomotiveNapolean was referring to 'Superman' - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 08:20 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Napoleon Bonaparte may not have been a great theologian, but I like the way he stated it. "I know men, and Jesus Christ was no mere man."===Judy Taylor wrote: On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:44:39 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF you are, in reality, mistaken concerning something so central as THE NATURE OF JESUS' HUMANITY (or David is) would that lead one to conclude that one of you is walking in the darkness (self confessed darkness, too) jt: Tell me Lance why the nature of Jesus' humanity is so central? If it is so central why did Paul waste so much of the Lord's time preaching the "centrality of the cross" rather than the centrality of Jesus' humanity? Where Judy, is the Spirit Who leads YOU (or David) into all truth on a matter so central to the Gospel? jt: Please tell me why Jesus humanity is so central for you? I accept that He took upon himself the "likeness" of man but we must face the fact that he was ALWAYS holy and without spot and we are not. Have you ever considered this Lance? I mean really thought about it. (I may just lurk for the outcome of this one) Will you confess, repent and enlighten all of those (family and friends) you've lead astray? When God or someone with more than just an opinion shows me in His Word how and where I have been leading ppl astray. From: Judy Taylor How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The difference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning. You don't seem to think that is possible. By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as giving you an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instruct us on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Judy, your statement below means, of course, that your discussion with David over the "sinful flesh" of Christ issue is only about you seeking (eventually) to correct DM in the spirit you correct Bill. And, to the degree DM agrees withyour statement -- ditto. So are you two exchanging views at all? JD Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say "It is written" and as the saying goes "take it to the Bank"
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Problem is that the scriptures he used were not pertaining to the weakness of Jesus flesh; the ONLY scriptures on this subject are the ones using the word "likeness" - the others speak to different areas or our pilgrimage - which is different from His even though he did leave us an example to follow and power from on high to enable us. If you can find some more explicit scriptures Lance I would be glad to entertain them in balance and context. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:25:53 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David couldn't have laced his comments with more Scripture, Judy! From: Judy Taylor On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:44:39 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF you are, in reality, mistaken concerning something so central as THE NATURE OF JESUS' HUMANITY (or David is) would that lead one to conclude that one of you is walking in the darkness (self confessed darkness, too) jt: Tell me Lance why the nature of Jesus' humanity is so central? If it is so central why did Paul waste so much of the Lord's time preaching the "centrality of the cross" rather than the centrality of Jesus' humanity? Where Judy, is the Spirit Who leads YOU (or David) into all truth on a matter so central to the Gospel? jt: Please tell me why Jesus humanity is so central for you? I accept that He took upon himself the "likeness" of man but we must face the fact that he was ALWAYS holy and without spot and we are not. Have you ever considered this Lance? I mean really thought about it. (I may just lurk for the outcome of this one) Will you confess, repent and enlighten all of those (family and friends) you've lead astray? When God or someone with more than just an opinion shows me in His Word how and where I have been leading ppl astray. From: Judy Taylor How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The difference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning. You don't seem to think that is possible. By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as giving you an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instruct us on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
At last we've been presented with the opportunity to demonstrate this 'He will lead you into all truth' thingy is misunderstood by those who have most often cited it (Judy, David). Both are faithful servants of the Lord, both have 'studied to show themselves approved', both are 'berean' in their approachHOWEVER ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO WEASEL OUT IN THE END SANS A SATISFACTORY CONCLUSION! One is more committed to belief than reality.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
My statement below has nothing at all to do with DavidM or Bill for that matter. Why are you stirring the pot JD? All I can say is "if the shoe fits" I have not become a judge over men/women. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:30:07 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy, your statement below means, of course, that your discussion with David over the "sinful flesh" of Christ issue is only about you seeking (eventually) to correct DM in the spirit you correct Bill. And, to the degree DM agrees withyour statement -- ditto. So are you two exchanging views at all? JD Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say "It is written" and as the saying goes "take it to the Bank"
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
For those of us who are onlookers - how do we decide, here? Judy's opinion is clearly NOT just an opinionin her view - rather one of those "infallible" thingy's. The fact tht DM is clearly correcting her reveals that he, too, speaks ex-cathedra Do we not see what this false teaching brings us to? And what is that?"Only I amright by the giftedness of the Indwelling." An impossible doctrine, at best. The veryheight of arrogance at worse. JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:59:13 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 I am a whole lot more concerned with the "Risen Christ" Lance - I don't need to have a "weak in the flesh" Christ or an "eternal son" Christ. He did defeat principalities, powers, and wicked spirits and he made a show of them openly. He has handed us the victory so now it is up to us to walk in it. Jesus overcame in the wilderness by using the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. Now Lance, if I were going to take what you write seriously I would have to go to the Lord and tell Him that the Comforter He sent me to lead me into all truth is not doing His job and helping me because after 25+ years I am still not able to apprehend that for which I am apprehended and so therefore my Sword is useless. Lance said so. jt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:39:58 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed Judy, one can take that to the bank. However, often your understanding of these selfsame Scriptures are not 'bankable'. I'm watching the conversation between you and David. This then is proof positive. You would agree, would you not that ONE OF YOU IS MISAPPREHENDING THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE REGARDING THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST?. From: Judy Taylor Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say "It is written" and as the saying goes "take it to the Bank" From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sorry David but this is a meaningless statement in this context. There is not a single participant who'd not subscribe to what you've said hereunder. (opinion-low, Bible-high) Do you know the _expression_ 'its like attempting to nail jello'? I will have departed TT actually 'knowing' you to have been wrong as to your understanding of Scripture and its employment in teaching and life.(NOT broadly and, on every issue) This being the case one's confidence in other matters is genuinely subject to serious questioning. From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: July 21, 2005 12:10Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: Who, pray tell David, occupies the position you've described. Do you know such a person and, will you introduce her/him to us? Who? Me, Judy, Terry, Izzy, Kevin, etc. We all take the position that our opinion means little. What is important is what the Bible says. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you hav e a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Judy, why does not Heb 2:17 define "likeness" in your mind? He became like us in all respects is the message of 2:17. Jd-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:06:38 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:44:39 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF you are, in reality, mistaken concerning something so central as THE NATURE OF JESUS' HUMANITY (or David is) would that lead one to conclude that one of you is walking in the darkness (self confessed darkness, too) jt: Tell me Lance why the nature of Jesus' humanity is so central? If it is so central why did Paul waste so much of the Lord's time preaching the "centrality of the cross" rather than the centrality of Jesus' humanity? Where Judy, is the Spirit Who leads YOU (or David) into all truth on a matter so central to the Gospel? jt: Please tell me why Jesus humanity is so central for you? I accept that He took upon himself the "likeness" of man but we must face the fact that he was ALWAYS holy and without spot and we are not. Have you ever considered this Lance? I mean really thought about it. (I may just lurk for the outcome of this one) Will you confess, repent and enlighten all of those (family and friends) you've lead astray? When God or someone with more than just an opinion shows me in His Word how and where I have been leading ppl astray. From: Judy Taylor How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The d ifference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning. You don't seem to think that is possible. By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as giving you an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instruct us on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org< BR> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
You never give up do you Lance? All this proves is that we are at different places in our walk. I have seen David explain this to you in the clearest way possible but you apparently did not accept that. There is only ONE who has always been perfect. The rest of us are learning and "rest" includes David and me. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:38:04 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At last we've been presented with the opportunity to demonstrate this 'He will lead you into all truth' thingy is misunderstood by those who have most often cited it (Judy, David). Both are faithful servants of the Lord, both have 'studied to show themselves approved', both are 'berean' in their approachHOWEVER ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO WEASEL OUT IN THE END SANS A SATISFACTORY CONCLUSION! One is more committed to belief than reality.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
IFF THAT'S ALL IT PROVES then, may I suggest that you BACK OFF ANY CRITICISMS OF ANYONE due to the operative proviso 'that we (they- Mormons et al) are at different places in their walk' - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 08:49 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter' You never give up do you Lance? All this proves is that we are at different places in our walk. I have seen David explain this to you in the clearest way possible but you apparently did not accept that. There is only ONE who has always been perfect. The rest of us are learning and "rest" includes David and me. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:38:04 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At last we've been presented with the opportunity to demonstrate this 'He will lead you into all truth' thingy is misunderstood by those who have most often cited it (Judy, David). Both are faithful servants of the Lord, both have 'studied to show themselves approved', both are 'berean' in their approachHOWEVER ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO WEASEL OUT IN THE END SANS A SATISFACTORY CONCLUSION! One is more committed to belief than reality.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Exactly. -Original Message-From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:38:04 -0400Subject: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter' At last we've been presented with the opportunity to demonstrate this 'He will lead you into all truth' thingy is misunderstood by those who have most often cited it (Judy, David). Both are faithful servants of the Lord, both have 'studied to show themselves approved', both are 'berean' in their approachHOWEVER ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO WEASEL OUT IN THE END SANS A SATISFACTORY CONCLUSION! One is more committed to belief than reality.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
IFF he is then you'd best move over just a bit to make room for him.f - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 08:51 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 And JD sits in the seat of the scornful/scoffer - either is appropriate!! On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:41:52 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For those of us who are onlookers - how do we decide, here? Judy's opinion is clearly NOT just an opinionin her view - rather one of those "infallible" thingy's. The fact tht DM is clearly correcting her reveals that he, too, speaks ex-cathedra Do we not see what this false teaching brings us to? And what is that?"Only I amright by the giftedness of the Indwelling." An impossible doctrine, at best. The veryheight of arrogance at worse. JD From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com I am a whole lot more concerned with the "Risen Christ" Lance - I don't need to have a "weak in the flesh" Christ or an "eternal son" Christ. He did defeat principalities, powers, and wicked spirits and he made a show of them openly. He has handed us the victory so now it is up to us to walk in it. Jesus overcame in the wilderness by using the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. Now Lance, if I were going to take what you write seriously I would have to go to the Lord and tell Him that the Comforter He sent me to lead me into all truth is not doing His job and helping me because after 25+ years I am still not able to apprehend that for which I am apprehended and so therefore my Sword is useless. Lance said so. jt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:39:58 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed Judy, one can take that to the bank. However, often your understanding of these selfsame Scriptures are not 'bankable'. I'm watching the conversation between you and David. This then is proof positive. You would agree, would you not that ONE OF YOU IS MISAPPREHENDING THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE REGARDING THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST?. From: Judy Taylor Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say "It is written" and as the saying goes "take it to the Bank" From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sorry David but this is a meaningless statement in this context. There is not a single participant who'd not subscribe to what you've said hereunder. (opinion-low, Bible-high) Do you know the _expression_ 'its like attempting to nail jello'? I will have departed TT actually 'knowing' you to have been wrong as to your understanding of Scripture and its employment in teaching and life.(NOT broadly and, on every issue) This being the case one's confidence in other matters is genuinely subject to serious questioning. From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: July 21, 2005 12:10Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: Who, pray tell David, occupies the position you've described. Do you know such a person and, will you introduce her/him to us? Who? Me, Judy, Terry, Izzy, Kevin, etc. We all take the position that our opinion means little. What is important is what the Bible says. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you hav e a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
I don't "criticize" people Lance. We are working in two different arenas and I can't figure out why you are so blind to it. I challenge doctrine and you criticize people. One is sin the other is expected as part of our walk in Christ which Mormons have not yet begun. since they are disciples of Joseph Smith and will become like their teacher. jt. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:59:42 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF THAT'S ALL IT PROVES then, may I suggest that you BACK OFF ANY CRITICISMS OF ANYONE due to the operative proviso 'that we (they- Mormons et al) are at different places in their walk' From: Judy Taylor You never give up do you Lance? All this proves is that we are at different places in our walk. I have seen David explain this to you in the clearest way possible but you apparently did not accept that. There is only ONE who has always been perfect. The rest of us are learning and "rest" includes David and me. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:38:04 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At last we've been presented with the opportunity to demonstrate this 'He will lead you into all truth' thingy is misunderstood by those who have most often cited it (Judy, David). Both are faithful servants of the Lord, both have 'studied to show themselves approved', both are 'berean' in their approachHOWEVER ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO WEASEL OUT IN THE END SANS A SATISFACTORY CONCLUSION! One is more committed to belief than reality.
Re: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma
Bill wrote: Check out its translation of this word translated established in the KJV. Thanks, Bill. That was helpful. I understand better the reason for the passage now. What do you think about the quote Lance posted? It still seems rather superficial and misleading to me, but I don't have the context and I hate to nitpick anything without context. One can do this with Bible verses too, all day long. Context and the end of a conversation means everything. The Isaiah passage is speaking about spiritual things, a prophetic utterance, and as I said before, nothing in the spirit can be understood without faith because nothing in the spirit can be perceived without faith. To then try and extend this to establishing the idea that understanding in general is based upon faith rather than reason, or that faith is not reasonable but rather emotional, etc., is going way beyond anything that can be gleaned from this passage. Jesus said that unless they saw signs and wonders, they would not believe. Oh, I had better stop now. I'm already speaking too much about a quote without any context, and it is probably stepping on one of Lance's icons. If the LXX of Isaiah 7:9 is the context of the quote, that is good enough for now. I suspect if I heard it in the flow of a sermon or lecture, you would hear hearty amen's from me about it. I just didn't like Blaine's take on it followed by Lance's amen to Blaine. True faith is rational not emotional. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Klaus Nomi, the one hit wonder agrees with David Judy
but not with Lance, Bill, John and Gary (put your hand up, Gary just to show us that you're still here). David July claim not only to know themselves but, also us. They further claim that we don't/can't know them (even some beliefs/character traits they don't perceive concerning themselves) through TT. This simply demonstrates that they, in reality, don't know themselves.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Talk about not knowing! Both you and David are (present tense) indwelling a nature that, though redeemed, still has a propensity toward sinning. Further, this nature of yours and, David does indeed practice that nature daily. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 09:07 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter' I don't "criticize" people Lance. We are working in two different arenas and I can't figure out why you are so blind to it. I challenge doctrine and you criticize people. One is sin the other is expected as part of our walk in Christ which Mormons have not yet begun. since they are disciples of Joseph Smith and will become like their teacher. jt. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:59:42 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF THAT'S ALL IT PROVES then, may I suggest that you BACK OFF ANY CRITICISMS OF ANYONE due to the operative proviso 'that we (they- Mormons et al) are at different places in their walk' From: Judy Taylor You never give up do you Lance? All this proves is that we are at different places in our walk. I have seen David explain this to you in the clearest way possible but you apparently did not accept that. There is only ONE who has always been perfect. The rest of us are learning and "rest" includes David and me. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:38:04 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At last we've been presented with the opportunity to demonstrate this 'He will lead you into all truth' thingy is misunderstood by those who have most often cited it (Judy, David). Both are faithful servants of the Lord, both have 'studied to show themselves approved', both are 'berean' in their approachHOWEVER ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO WEASEL OUT IN THE END SANS A SATISFACTORY CONCLUSION! One is more committed to belief than reality.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
You are the one who adds "in all respects" JD - I don't see this in scripture. What I see is "likeness" which I read asphysical likeness. IOW he had a body like ours. There is a moral dimension to flesh - it isnot body image only When Job says "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean" (Job 14:4) he is speaking of this moral dimension or moral cleanness and purity. This is the difference between us in the flesh and Christ's humanity. He has always been clean and pure As a race we never have been and this is what put him on the cross. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:45:45 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy, why does not Heb 2:17 define "likeness" in your mind? He became like us in all respects is the message of 2:17. JdFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:44:39 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF you are, in reality, mistaken concerning something so central as THE NATURE OF JESUS' HUMANITY (or David is) would that lead one to conclude that one of you is walking in the darkness (self confessed darkness, too) jt: Tell me Lance why the nature of Jesus' humanity is so central? If it is so central why did Paul waste so much of the Lord's time preaching the "centrality of the cross" rather than the centrality of Jesus' humanity? Where Judy, is the Spirit Who leads YOU (or David) into all truth on a matter so central to the Gospel? jt: Please tell me why Jesus humanity is so central for you? I accept that He took upon himself the "likeness" of man but we must face the fact that he was ALWAYS holy and without spot and we are not. Have you ever considered this Lance? I mean really thought about it. (I may just lurk for the outcome of this one) Will you confess, repent and enlighten all of those (family and friends) you've lead astray? When God or someone with more than just an opinion shows me in His Word how and where I have been leading ppl astray. From: Judy Taylor How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The d ifference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning. You don't seem to think that is possible. By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as giving you an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instruct us on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org BR If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Judy, you miss my point, completely. You claim to be led by the Spirit into a non-interpretive understanding of the biblical text. So does DM. You both cannot be right,either in yourdoctrinal opinion of the issue at hand or in your (you and/or DM) claim that the work of the Spiritincludes an infallible impartation of knowing. Because of the postulated truth that no two individuals agree in total, this "infallible" thingy always takes us to the irresistible conclusionthat only one person in this world is right. Since DM lays claim to apostleship and the office of Prophet, my money will be on him (this is in spite of my obviously preference for you). The only task remaining is for DM to issue a series of statements revealing those teachings that cannot possibly be wrong (seriously) and we will, thus, know the boundry of public discussion that lend itself to true dialogue. Since dM agrees with 90% of what I believe, we can only assume that the total body of ex cathedra related material represents only 10% of that which is represented in the biblical message. presenting us (here on TT) with much to discuss .. No, wait !!! The 10% that DM disagrees with is "infallible" content. Right? And if he agrees with me on the remaining 90% -- well, that would mean tha he and I are standing in agreement - "infallible understanding" embraced in a communi ty of thought, as it were. S, I guess I could speak on the 90% with a sense of infallibility, surrendering to DM on the remaining 10% Now (and once again), all we need to know is what teachings are included in that 10% Perhaps DM could help us out. JD-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:41:04 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 My statement below has nothing at all to do with DavidM or Bill for that matter. Why are you stirring the pot JD? All I can say is "if the shoe fits" I have not become a judge over men/women. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:30:07 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy, your statement below means, of course, that your discussion with David over the "sinful flesh" of Christ issue is only about you seeking (eventually) to correct DM in the spirit you correct Bill. And, to the degree DM agrees withyour statement -- ditto. So are you two exchanging views at all? JD Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say "It is written" and as the saying goes "take it to the Bank"
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Which makes my point perfectly. Jesus was not born of a virgin with the same kind ofnature even though he had a body in our likeness. His humanity was different from ours. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:18:38 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Talk about not knowing! Both you and David are (present tense) indwelling a nature that, though redeemed, still has a propensity toward sinning. Further, this nature of yours and, David does indeed practice that nature daily. From: Judy Taylor I don't "criticize" people Lance. We are working in two different arenas and I can't figure out why you are so blind to it. I challenge doctrine and you criticize people. One is sin the other is expected as part of our walk in Christ which Mormons have not yet begun. since they are disciples of Joseph Smith and will become like their teacher. jt. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:59:42 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF THAT'S ALL IT PROVES then, may I suggest that you BACK OFF ANY CRITICISMS OF ANYONE due to the operative proviso 'that we (they- Mormons et al) are at different places in their walk' From: Judy Taylor You never give up do you Lance? All this proves is that we are at different places in our walk. I have seen David explain this to you in the clearest way possible but you apparently did not accept that. There is only ONE who has always been perfect. The rest of us are learning and "rest" includes David and me. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:38:04 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At last we've been presented with the opportunity to demonstrate this 'He will lead you into all truth' thingy is misunderstood by those who have most often cited it (Judy, David). Both are faithful servants of the Lord, both have 'studied to show themselves approved', both are 'berean' in their approachHOWEVER ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO WEASEL OUT IN THE END SANS A SATISFACTORY CONCLUSION! One is more committed to belief than reality.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
S, "infallibility" is thecase except when two people who share that teaching disagree. Then, the doctrine of "infallibility" does not apply and the teaching of "maturity" carry's the force of law? Wow !! I think I am starting to get it!! Jd-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:49:13 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter' You never give up do you Lance? All this proves is that we are at different places in our walk. I have seen David explain this to you in the clearest way possible but you apparently did not accept that. There is only ONE who has always been perfect. The rest of us are learning and "rest" includes David and me. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:38:04 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At last we've been presented with the opportunity to demonstrate this 'He will lead you into all truth' thingy is misunderstood by those who have most often cited it (Judy, David). Both are faithful servants of the Lord, both have 'studied to show themselves approved', both are 'berean' in their approachHOWEVER ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO WEASEL OUT IN THE END SANS A SATISFACTORY CONCLUSION! One is more committed to belief than reality.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
I do not scoff at you -- but this teaching, absolutely.The fact that neither you nor DM can effectively deal with the consequences of your own teaching is evidence that I am correct (well, ok, Lance too)to a passionate conviction of "certainty." Rather than pointing out the fact of my socffetry, why not correct the content of my statement? In other words, prove me wrong JD-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:51:54 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 And JD sits in the seat of the scornful/scoffer - either is appropriate!! On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:41:52 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For those of us who are onlookers - how do we decide, here? Judy's opinion is clearly NOT just an opinionin her view - rather one of those "infallible" thingy's. The fact tht DM is clearly correcting her reveals that he, too, speaks ex-cathedra Do we not see what this false teaching brings us to? And what is that?"Only I amright by the giftedness of the Indwelling." An impossible doctrine, at best. The veryheight of arrogance at worse. JD From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com I am a whole lot more concerned with the "Risen Christ" Lance - I don't need to have a "weak in the flesh" Christ or an "eternal son" Christ. He did defeat principalities, powers, and wicked spirits and he made a show of them openly. He has handed us the victory so now it is up to us to walk in it. Jesus overcame in the wilderness by using the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. Now Lance, if I were going to take what you write seriously I would have to go to the Lord and tell Him that the Comforter He sent me to lead me into all truth is not doing His job and helping me because after 25+ years I am still not able to apprehend that for which I am apprehended and so therefore my Sword is useless. Lance said so. jt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:39:58 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed Judy, one can take that to the bank. However, often your understanding of these selfsame Scriptures are not 'bankable'. I'm watching the conversation between you and David. This then is proof positive. You would agree, would you not that ONE OF YOU IS MISAPPREHENDING THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE REGARDING THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST?. From: Judy Taylor Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say "It is written" and as the saying goes "take it to the Bank" From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sorry David but this is a meaningless statement in this context. There is not a single participant who'd not subscribe to what you've said hereunder. (opinion-low, Bible-high) Do you know the _expression_ 'its like attempting to nail jello'? I will have departed TT actually 'knowing' you to have been wrong as to your understanding of Scripture and its employment in teaching and life.(NOT broadly and, on every issue) This being the case one's confidence in other matters is genuinely subject to serious questioning. From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: July 21, 2005 12:10Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: Who, pray tell David, occupies the position you've described. Do you know such a person and, will you introduce her/him to us? Who? Me, Judy, Terry, Izzy, Kevin, etc. We all take the position that our opinion means little. What is important is what the Bible says. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you hav e a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma
True faith is rational not emotional. DM Nonsense. I do not believe in emotionalism -- but faith as in "conviction" is an emotion. Jd -Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:15:22 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma Bill wrote: Check out its translation of this word translated "established" in the KJV. Thanks, Bill. That was helpful. I understand better the reason for the passage now. What do you think about the quote Lance posted? It still seems rather superficial and misleading to me, but I don't have the context and I hate to nitpick anything without context. One can do this with Bible verses too, all day long. Context and the end of a conversation means everything. The Isaiah passage is speaking about spiritual things, a prophetic utterance, and as I said before, nothing in the spirit can be understood without faith because nothing in the spirit can be perceived without faith. To then try and extend this to establishing the idea that understanding in general is based upon faith rather than reason, or that faith is not reasonable but rather emotional, etc., is going way beyond anything that can be gleaned from this passage. Jesus said that unless they saw signs and wonders, they would not believe. Oh, I had better stop now. I'm already speaking too much about a quote without any context, and it is probably stepping on one of Lance's icons. If the LXX of Isaiah 7:9 is the context of the quote, that is good enough for now. I suspect if I heard it in the flow of a sermon or lecture, you would hear hearty amen's from me about it. I just didn't like Blaine's take on it followed by Lance's amen to Blaine. True faith is rational not emotional. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Yes, Judy, since BT says it doesnt address the subject at all. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Anyone care to know what the scriptures teach about spiritual death?
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Amen, David--and why is that SO difficult for some to understand??? (Maybe because they don't want to?) izzy -Original Message- JD wrote: As I have said a number of times in the past: It is never what the bible says; rather, it is always what I believe the bible says. You and Lance repeat this mantra often, but few accept it because from our perspective, it does not matter what any of us think the Bible says. Our opinions do not mean much of anything. What matters is what God thinks the Bible says. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Good post, Bill, and I think I agree with you basically on your points about the spirit aspect of humans. Ive never been one to think we can compartmentalize body/soul/spiritwhat affects one affects all. Please do, however, discuss your views on the organic connectedness that we all share via our spirit aspect. Im intrigued. izzy Furthermore, aspirit does not have any physical attributes, hence it does not take up space, so to speak; hence neither does it occupy a particular place. It may be present, but not in terms of physical dimensions. (By the way, I think we are going to be amazed to find out the organic connectedness that we all share via our spirit aspect -- but that is a discussion for another day) Bill
RE: [TruthTalk] questions for Kevin . . (was playing chess . . . etc).
Ps 41:9 9Even my close friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Hansen Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 11:30 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] questions for Kevin . . (was playing chess . . . etc). DAVEH: ???is vs 12 a reference to Scripture that had been lost? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainer: Guess Kevin'sbusy today--either that or he's not condescending to speak to this lowly Mormon-- LOL. But, interesting scripture, Izzy.You chose the very passage I was wondering about, but couldn't find. It seems to be saying Judas was pre-determined to bethe son of perdition. Do you believe in pre-determinism? This seems to be similar to the idea that only pre-selected individuals will go to heaven, and all others need not even apply, does it not? In a message dated 7/20/2005 9:28:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John 17:12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. Hi Kevin, Why do youthinkthe Lordchose Judas to be an apostle in the first place? Do you think he knew he would betray him? BlainerB -- ~~~Dave Hansen[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.langlitz.com~~~If you wish to receivethings I find interesting,I maintain six email lists...JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
RE: [TruthTalk] The Tree of Delusion FYI
Yes, Judy, obviously there is only one human being on the planet from the day of creation until now who bore the initials O.C.!!! How could you not realize that??? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 6:58 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Tree of Delusion FYI How is it that you do not know who OC is? -Original Message- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 08:36:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Tree of Delusion FYI Who is OC and what does he have to do with the price of fish? On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 07:59:32 -0400 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He is quite wonderful (OC) is he not? Belief and life are inextricably bound together. Articulation and belief are not necessarily bound together. From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Tree of Delusion The Tree of knowledge is the Tree of presumption, a realm of delusion masquerading as wisdom. A system of knowing without the humble sweat of hearing. Human ideas that stand on proud logic, strutting as divine, but unlived, unpracticed. And. . . untrue. Delusion is the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. And knowledge is true ignorance. Knowledge is an illusion of truth, a deception of the impractical that flatters blindess with the bloat of arrogance. Knowlege puffeth up I Cor. 8:1KJ The Tree of death is saving, sparing, serving. . . Self. And unreality is a desirable foil to trick yourself into believing that your evil is not just right but noble. The tree of Death is a dark place to hide your motive - from you. Under the ready shade of the Liar, delusion is the fruit that fools only you. Straining at Gnats of the Inconsequential The Tree of Death is the False Law of making-up-your-own-law: Satan, out to usurp God's holy criterion, building his own religion. A formula of the mind and not of the heart. Religion is rigid idealism, ever holding to the fantasy of what should be, rejecting what is. The Pharisees objected to the failure to wash hands, to Jesus healing on the sabbath. Picking at and daring to judge the works of God! Unimportant things, proven so by Jesus' cavalier indifference. Their independent judging and picking struck them blind to the presence of the God in whose very name they judged; believing as they did , that God agreed with them! Phil. 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision. The Real Fruit is Real Death Reality or unreality. Life and death. These are the result of desire, not the mistake of ignorance. There is no stumbling into your Tree. Not the oops of a didn't mean to. It is a choice. The end result is spiritual death that issues in literal death. But tragically, the eater of that Tree inflicts death on others, infects the world with death and is the very agent of Death, God's enemy. The Fruit of an Unsweet Sleep We know, we always know. . .the heart's real motive. In the beginning we know but if we want to forget, there is a narcotic fruit that puts the memory of what we are into the sleep of a fool. Sweet blind ness and ignorant rest with no need for heart examination. To seek knowledge is to know all yet lose sight of your own self. The fruit of Knowledge is not illumination, it is forgetfulness. Forgetting the right things and remembering what never was. The tree of Life is a glare of reality, God giving the true state of things by their naked names. He is a Light that finds and sears. Kills and purifies. O wonderful Light, agent of freedom! Taking God's place They will be as gods is the satanic delusion of knowledge. The Tree of Death does not cause us to become gods but deceives us into the insanity of thinking we are.The human propensity is absurd lust for intellectual dominance over God to prove His irrelevance. . . and His inferiority. I will set myself above the Most Hig h God. And life is the unending shock of pink slips that say: You are fired as God. You failed at being Him and at conquering Him. The problem is, we forget the message of the pink slip and ever go back to know what the Real God never said. And to spout it as His didactic word! Cor. 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. When there is moral wrong in a man who is susceptibly religious, he will get more and more religious. The more moral rottenness, the more exciting is the appeal. (to be religious) - Oswald Chambers -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do n
RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
I don't see any of this nearly as complicated as everyone is making it. A spiritually dead person is going to hell when he physically dies. He already doesn't get it about things of the Spirit. A spiritually alive person is heaven-bound. He understands things of the Spirit. One is living in satan's realm (death); the other is living in God's (life: My words are Spirit and Life). That's the difference. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 4:42 PM To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Bill. I have been reading with interest your dialogue with Judy. The idea of spiritual death has some logical inconsistencies that you seem to be pointing out. Your focus on death being a metaphor is making me think! That's a good thing. :-) Some of the problems I have had over my lifetime with the spiritual death perspective is the following: 1. The body without the spirit is dead, so if the spirit is dead, how can one be alive? This assumes, of course, that spiritual death means that the spirit is dead. Jt: when I say dead David I mean dead in the same sense as blessing vs. cursing. Someone Who is cursed is walking in death while they live. This does not mean that their spirit is literally dead or that they are physically dead - it means that if something does not change they will inherit both in the last day. 2. If people were spiritually dead in the Old Testament times, how did they write prophecy and such? How does anyone do anything good at all if they are dead in their spirit? All good ultimately comes from God, does it not, and how can this good come through us except through the spirit? Jt: Is what appears to be good outwardly always good and is what is evil always look evil ie: if the light within you be darkness (deception) how great is that darkness. 3. John says that Christ is the light that lighteth every man that comes into the world. How can that happen if virtually everyone is spiritually dead? Jt: It happens because Jesus is the Creator; he is the one who spoke the worlds into existence; and ultimately He was the one who fulfilled Zechariah 12:1b. As for spiritual death in such a circumstance.. What does it mean to say that a woman who lives for pleasure is dead while she lives? One way of remedy here is to perceive spiritual death as something that is less than perfect death. In other words, there is so much darkness that we might call it being spiritually dead, but that does not mean complete and total darkness. Of course, if we take this perspective, then why not take the same approach in regards to physical death with Adam and Eve? I think it was Ireneus who said that they were given over to death on that very day. In other words, death began its work, they died that very day, but it took time for the full effect of it to be manifested. Jt: They lost their open-line to God on that day; they experienced fear and shame which before this time were unknown to them and not long after that their son Cain committed the first murder. Wrong spirit produces wrong fruit. They had chosen a new spiritual counsellor and it proceeded from bad to worse until within a few generations God saw the need to kill everyone but one family. Another observation I might make is that I think often people use that word spiritually as a metaphor itself. In other words, when they think spiritually dead they are really thinking along the lines of dead metaphorically speaking. Jt: I have a Noah Webster 1828 dictionary here which tells me a metaphor should be just one word, otherwise it would be a similitude rather than a metaphor. I don't believe these scriptures are using either myself. Why not let scripture say what it says and ask the Holy Spirit for the correct understanding? Where do you suppose the adversary or the Strongman builds his structures? What part of the house? He is spirit also. Why does scripture speak of the sanctification of the spirit? All three can be defiled (body, soul/mind, spirit). Why do some find it so easy to take the Godhead and divide it into three parts all dancing with each other and yet insist that triune man has to be one entity - a human being and that is all. Will we just throw out what we don't understand; stay in darkness in these areas and let the devil take the day? judyt -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6)
RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: greetings from ky: long version
Ahh, isn't America just wonderful? :-) iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 3:50 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: greetings from ky: long version - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: July 20, 2005 21:10 Subject: greetings from ky: long version We are in the heart of the kind of country where there is a flag on every house or lawn and a bumper sticker on two out of three vehicles that reads We support our troops. At the tourist bureau in Ohio there was a sign on the door: It is illegal to carry any firearm, deadly weapon or ordnance on these premises. Leave your cannons at home, folks. Now we're in Kentucky, in the hills; the signs at fast food restaurants are all 100 feet high so they can be seen in this very humpy countryside. We are staying in a small but clean and modern motel near the I65, on a narrow, winding rural road, flanked by Aunt Bee's Restaurant and overlooking a large, green, lovely, unkempt, tussocky meadow. We got off the highway too early and in the space of about five miles must have passed no less than 16 or 17 churches on the one country road--Friendship Baptist, First Baptist, Baptist Missionary, New Life Fellowship, New Horizons Fellowship, Church of God of Prophecy, Gospel Assembly, you name it, literally one every quarter mile or so. (There is also a thing about the Ten Commandments. We have seen them writ large on a billboard and on the window of a storefront church in a small town. Repent Now signs also appear here and there.) When we reached the road we wanted, we went the wrong direction first and drove by a farm gate with two boar's heads on it. Real ones. Dorothy, we're not in Ontario anymore. The road is very narrow and winding but paved--what you just don't find in our countryside where all the roads that lead anywhere are wide and follow straight along the surveyors' lines, and only major ones are paved. It feels weird. On the other side of the highway from the motel and down a short distance is the sad little town of Horse Cave--we're in the Mammoth Cave region--in which pretty little wooden houses sit cheek by jowl with tumbledown ramshackle ones, and by that I mean houses whose shadowy porches still have people sitting in swings but which would have been condemned long ago in Ontario, sections of their roofs collapsed or missing, windows broken, doors sagging on their hinges, the wood showing hardly any paint anymore. It's incredible there are still people living in them. Next to the disused railway tracks stands the wreck of what must have been an old station hotel when the town was booming. It is a melancholy sight. A bit further down the highway is a village hyperbolically dubbed Cave City, in which half of the establishments are defunct. But in amongst these sites are a fair number of large elegant new houses set far back from the road. So today we visited the Mammoth Caves, the world's longest cave system, 365 miles of passageway explored so far. We were under 250 feet of limestone. Very impressive. We decided against the six-hour tour consisting mostly of crawling through tight spaces, taking instead the two-hour tour which only requires you to turn sideways a few times or duck now and then to fit through a small passage. At some points on the path (it had railings) you could look up or down a good 80 feet or so into these vertical shafts left by water. We kept imagining we were in Moria and heard orcs and cave trolls. Fool of a Took! You...shall...not... pass! Fly, you fools! Fly! Apparently people have played violins or trumpets in these caves, or have sung down there, and the effect is supposed to be magnificent. I can only imagine. One of the nicest things about the caves was the temperature. It is killingly hot here--all the cows in the fields are standing in ponds, like water buffaloes in Asia--but in the caves it was a pleasant 18C or thereabouts, and quite dry. When we came out again it felt like we had suddenly entered a tropical rainforest; I could just feel the H2O going into my lungs with every breath. I think a pair of gills would come in handy. Later we went to the birthplace of Lincoln, which is nearby and is a national site, and saw the original log cabin enshrined in a sort of Parthenonlike monument with a gazillion steps leading up to it like at Lourdes. The little movie we saw about Lincoln's Kentucky years (he lived here till about age 10) included a lengthy segment consisting of scenic shots with a man and woman singing all the verses of The Lord is my Shepherd in the background accompanied by a guitar. I couldn't help but think how different the movie would be in a Canadian national site, regardless of how
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
OK -- KJV it is -- He was made like us "in all things." Same difference -- precisely the same. For the record, I never add to the biblical message never. Jd-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:20:44 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 You are the one who adds "in all respects" JD - I don't see this in scripture. What I see is "likeness" which I read asphysical likeness. IOW he had a body like ours. There is a moral dimension to flesh - it isnot body image only When Job says "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean" (Job 14:4) he is speaking of this moral dimension or moral cleanness and purity. This is the difference between us in the flesh and Christ's humanity. He has always been clean and pure As a race we never have been and this is what put him on the cross. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:45:45 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy, why does not Heb 2:17 define "likeness" in your mind? He became like us in all respects is the message of 2:17. JdFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:44:39 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF you are, in reality, mistaken concerning something so central as THE NATURE OF JESUS' HUMANITY (or David is) would that lead one to conclude that one of you is walking in the darkness (self confessed darkness, too) jt: Tell me Lance why the nature of Jesus' humanity is so central? If it is so central why did Paul waste so much of the Lord's time preaching the "centrality of the cross" rather than the centrality of Jesus' humanity? Where Judy, is the Spirit Who leads YOU (or David) into all truth on a matter so central to the Gospel? jt: Please tell me why Jesus humanity is so central for you? I accept that He took upon himself the "likeness" of man but we must face the fact that he was ALWAYS holy and without spot and we are not. Have you ever considered this Lance? I mean really thought about it. (I may just lurk for the outcome of this one) Will you confess, repent and enlighten all of those (family and friends) you've lead astray? When God or someone with more than just an opinion shows me in His Word how and where I have been leading ppl astray. From: Judy Taylor How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The d ifference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning. You don't seem to think that is possible. By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as giving you an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instruct us on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org BR If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to L [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
JD you need to be taken to task for your scandalous misquoting. You have no idea what DM is saying but you constantly mock at the way he expresses himself and take personal offense If you don't agree with him then get your scriptures together and challenge him. Noone has the whole loaf JD but the effect of what I believe is taking me from glory to glory - you should have seen what I was and I am nowhere near what I will be in spike of naysayers like you, Lance, and whoever else is one with you in your folly. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:36:51 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do not scoff at you -- but this teaching, absolutely.The fact that neither you nor DM can effectively deal with the consequences of your own teaching is evidence that I am correct (well, ok, Lance too)to a passionate conviction of "certainty." Rather than pointing out the fact of my socffetry, why not correct the content of my statement? In other words, prove me wrong JDFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com And JD sits in the seat of the scornful/scoffer - either is appropriate!! On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:41:52 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For those of us who are onlookers - how do we decide, here? Judy's opinion is clearly NOT just an opinionin her view - rather one of those "infallible" thingy's. The fact tht DM is clearly correcting her reveals that he, too, speaks ex-cathedra Do we not see what this false teaching brings us to? And what is that?"Only I amright by the giftedness of the Indwelling." An impossible doctrine, at best. The veryheight of arrogance at worse. JD From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com I am a whole lot more concerned with the "Risen Christ" Lance - I don't need to have a "weak in the flesh" Christ or an "eternal son" Christ. He did defeat principalities, powers, and wicked spirits and he made a show of them openly. He has handed us the victory so now it is up to us to walk in it. Jesus overcame in the wilderness by using the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. Now Lance, if I were going to take what you write seriously I would have to go to the Lord and tell Him that the Comforter He sent me to lead me into all truth is not doing His job and helping me because after 25+ years I am still not able to apprehend that for which I am apprehended and so therefore my Sword is useless. Lance said so. jt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:39:58 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed Judy, one can take that to the bank. However, often your understanding of these selfsame Scriptures are not 'bankable'. I'm watching the conversation between you and David. This then is proof positive. You would agree, would you not that ONE OF YOU IS MISAPPREHENDING THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE REGARDING THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST?. From: Judy Taylor Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say "It is written" and as the saying goes "take it to the Bank" From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sorry David but this is a meaningless statement in this context. There is not a single participant who'd not subscribe to what you've said hereunder. (opinion-low, Bible-high) Do you know the _expression_ 'its like attempting to nail jello'? I will have departed TT actually 'knowing' you to have been wrong as to your understanding of Scripture and its employment in teaching and life.(NOT broadly and, on every issue) This being the case one's confidence in other matters is genuinely subject to serious questioning. From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: July 21, 2005 12:10Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: Who, pray tell David, occupies the position you've described. Do you know such a person and, will you introduce her/him to us? Who? Me, Judy, Terry, Izzy, Kevin, etc. We all take the position that our opinion means little. What is important is what the Bible says. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you hav e a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
Re: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma
Could be DM is saying that true faith is objective rather than subjective. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:43:59 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: True faith is rational not emotional. DM Nonsense. I do not believe in emotionalism -- but faith as in "conviction" is an emotion. Jd -Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:15:22 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma Bill wrote: Check out its translation of this word translated "established" in the KJV. Thanks, Bill. That was helpful. I understand better the reason for the passage now. What do you think about the quote Lance posted? It still seems rather superficial and misleading to me, but I don't have the context and I hate to nitpick anything without context. One can do this with Bible verses too, all day long. Context and the end of a conversation means everything. The Isaiah passage is speaking about spiritual things, a prophetic utterance, and as I said before, nothing in the spirit can be understood without faith because nothing in the spirit can be perceived without faith. To then try and extend this to establishing the idea that understanding in general is based upon faith rather than reason, or that faith is not reasonable but rather emotional, etc., is going way beyond anything that can be gleaned from this passage. Jesus said that unless they saw signs and wonders, they would not believe. Oh, I had better stop now. I'm already speaking too much about a quote without any context, and it is probably stepping on one of Lance's icons. If the LXX of Isaiah 7:9 is the context of the quote, that is good enough for now. I suspect if I heard it in the flow of a sermon or lecture, you would hear hearty amen's from me about it. I just didn't like Blaine's take on it followed by Lance's amen to Blaine. True faith is rational not emotional. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
Exactly - Bless you Izzy, you've made my day. From one who is alive from the dead :) jt From: "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]I don't see any of this nearly as complicated as everyone is making it. A"spiritually dead" person is going to hell when he physically dies. Healready doesn't "get it" about things of the Spirit. A "spiritually alive"person is heaven-bound. He understands things of the Spirit. One is livingin satan's realm (death); the other is living in God's (life: "My words areSpirit and Life"). That's the difference. izzy From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Bill. I have been reading with interest your dialogue with Judy. Theidea of "spiritual death" has some logical inconsistencies that you seemto be pointing out. Your focus on death being a metaphor is making methink! That's a good thing. :-) Some of the problems I have had over mylifetime with the "spiritual death" perspective is the following: 1. The body without the spirit is dead, so if the spirit is dead, how canone be alive? This assumes, of course, that spiritual death means thatthe spirit is dead.Jt: when I say dead David I mean dead in the same sense as blessing vs.cursing. SomeoneWho is cursed is walking in death while they live. This does not meanthat their spirit is literally dead or that they are physically dead - itmeans that if something does not change they will inherit both in thelast day. 2. If people were spiritually dead in the Old Testament times, how didthey write prophecy and such? How does anyone do anything good at all ifthey are dead in their spirit? All good ultimately comes from God, doesit not, and how can this good come through us except through the spirit?Jt: Is what appears to be good outwardly always good and is what is evilalways look evil ie: if the light within you be darkness (deception) howgreat is that darkness. 3. John says that Christ is the light that lighteth every man that comesinto the world. How can that happen if virtually everyone is "spirituallydead"? Jt: It happens because Jesus is the Creator; he is the one who spoke theworlds into existence; and ultimately He was the one who fulfilledZechariah 12:1b. As for spiritual death in such a circumstance.. Whatdoes it mean to say that a woman who lives for pleasure is "dead whileshe lives?" One way of remedy here is to perceive "spiritual death" as something thatis less than perfect death. In other words, there is so much darknessthat we might call it being spiritually dead, but that does not meancomplete and total darkness. Of course, if we take this perspective, thenwhy not take the same approach in regards to physical death with Adam andEve? I think it was Ireneus who said that they were given over to deathon that very day. In other words, death began its work, they died thatvery day, but it took time for the full effect of it to be manifested.Jt: They lost their "open-line" to God on that day; they experienced fearand shame which before this time were unknown to them and not long afterthat their son Cain committed the first murder. Wrong spirit produceswrong fruit. They had chosen a new spiritual counsellor and it proceededfrom bad to worse until within a few generations God saw the need to killeveryone but one family. Another observation I might make is that I think often people use thatword "spiritually" as a metaphor itself. In other words, when they think"spiritually dead" they are really thinking along the lines of deadmetaphorically speaking. Jt: I have a Noah Webster 1828 dictionary here which tells me a metaphorshould be just one word, otherwise it would be a similitude rather than ametaphor. I don't believe these scriptures are using either myself. Whynot let scripture say what it says and ask the Holy Spirit for thecorrect understanding? Where do you suppose the adversary or theStrongman builds his structures? What part of the house? He is spiritalso. Why does scripture speak of the sanctification of the spirit? Allthree can be defiled (body, soul/mind, spirit). Why do some find it soeasy to take the Godhead and divide it into three parts all dancing witheach other and yet insist that triune man has to be one entity - a humanbeing and that is all. Will we just throw out what we don't understand;stay in darkness in these areas and let the devil take the day? judyt--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may knowhow you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this
Re: [TruthTalk] Humanity of Jesus
Judy wrote: Have patience and give him time, he is wearing a lot of hats. I have no doubt that one of us will change if we both determine to continue on to follow the Lord. Amen, Judy! Thank you for expressing the heart of hope. It is in this spirit that we follow our risen Lord together, knowing that we will change and be more conformed to Him who is Lord of us all. I have read your posts, but unfortunately do not have the time right now to address them. Following are a few observations: 1. I think the concept of original sin will be important for us to discuss in more detail. I think you still hang onto the Calvinistic / Roman Catholic viewpoint of men being born guilty in sin. From my perspective, while we are born with a sin nature, we are not born guilty. We are born in a physically depraved state, but physical depravity and moral depravity are two different things. We will need to discuss this more because obviously, Jesus was not born morally depraved or in an unholy state. If my saying that he was born with the same flesh as other men equates to you the idea that he was morally depraved or unholy, then we will never progress in understanding one another. 2. We have a semantic difference in that the word flesh to you means something different than it does to me. I take a more reductionistic approach to this. I see a sharp duality taught by Paul in Romans 7. You still read Romans 7 the way Calvin read it, as Paul describing his present Christian condition. I do not. I see Romans 7 as describing what man under the law and without the power of the Spirit of Christ faces because of the weakness of his flesh. My perspective of the duality of man is like that which Paul says, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. This duality is one thing that helps me perceive how Christ could have a sin nature in his flesh and yet not be unholy himself. I perceives two sources of iniquity in man: flesh and spirit. The soul is that which is between the two, and so the carnal man has a fleshly soul and a spiritual man has a spiritual soul. Men are defiled in both flesh and spirit when they come to Christ, and they may be completely purified in spirit but not in flesh, that is, not until the resurrection. Nevertheless, the sinful nature of the flesh does not inhibit them from walking in righteousness. This is where faith and walking in the spirit come in. So we do walk like Christ after we have received his spirit, still having a flesh that is physically depraved and has weakness and is a source of temptation, but having a spirit which is created anew, perfectly after him. 3. I do not perceive sanctification to be only progressive. There is a progressive aspect to it, but being brought into a state of righteousness whereby we no longer sin against God or men is not progressive. It is accomplished by the Spirit of Christ living within us, and so it can be no more progressive than the idea that one progressively receives the Spirit. One receives the Spirit of Christ in an instant, and from thence forth, he walks in holiness. That holiness then grows and increases, which is the progressive aspect. The one who is under the law is the one who progressively sins less and less, and unfortunately, will never arrive at that place where he never sins. The one in Christ is righteous by faith, the moment he believes. 4. Interestingly, Bill looks at man a little more holistically, more so than you do. This is one element that leads him to seeing mankind all being assumed in Christ without any faith on their part. I'm interested in discussing this more with him, but that does not mean that I embrace his viewpoint. It is as foreign to me as it is to you, so when you raise it as an objection to what I am saying, it makes further dialogue a little difficult. Can you just accept that I do not believe the same way as Bill on this? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma
Why? Mom and Dad. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 09:40 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma Why? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 3:43 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma Alan Ruth. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 20, 2005 23:35 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma Lance who are your spiritual parents? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 2:51 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma This is as close to being accurately apprehended as has ever happened since my 'spiritual parents gave birth to me'. Thanks and SOL - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 20, 2005 16:38 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma Blainer: LOL I have not been following Lance's comments that closely, but I have read a few, so I think I see what you are saying. The quote does seem to get at a very important point, however. It suggests that one can choose to disbelieve something, even in the face of strong evidencethat it istrue. Or, on the other hand, that one can choose to believe something, even if it is obviously not true. For instance, some people still choose to believe Elvis Presley still lives, or John Kennedy is being kept alive by artificial means, despite overwhelming evidence that neither belief is supported by even a shred of evidence. I see this human tendency--when applied to religion at least--as being the reasonmost people on TT do not agree with one another on very much. They choose to believe or disbelieve for reasons other than logic and/or scriptural evidence. In a message dated 7/20/2005 9:29:54 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Lance wrote/quoted it, which is ironic since he doesnt believe one can understand the truth about anything. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 9:20 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma ? who wrote this The primacy of belief IS the underlying point, Iz. Someone has said that 'unless we believe we will not understand and, it is only if we believe that we will understand. There is no understanding without the commitment of the mind to objective reality and to its natural or intrinsic intelligibility. Blainer: Thiscould be the most fundamental truth I have encountered on TT. I could not tell who wrote it--Lance? Izz?
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Use whatever translation you like. Was Jesus born with aregular fleshly human nature as per Galatians 5:19 JD? On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:49:38 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK -- KJV it is -- He was made like us "in all things." Same difference -- precisely the same. For the record, I never add to the biblical message never. JdFrom: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] You are the one who adds "in all respects" JD - I don't see this in scripture. What I see is "likeness" which I read asphysical likeness. IOW he had a body like ours. There is a moral dimension to flesh - it isnot body image only When Job says "who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean" (Job 14:4) he is speaking of this moral dimension or moral cleanness and purity. This is the difference between us in the flesh and Christ's humanity. He has always been clean and pure As a race we never have been and this is what put him on the cross. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:45:45 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy, why does not Heb 2:17 define "likeness" in your mind? He became like us in all respects is the message of 2:17. JdFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:44:39 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF you are, in reality, mistaken concerning something so central as THE NATURE OF JESUS' HUMANITY (or David is) would that lead one to conclude that one of you is walking in the darkness (self confessed darkness, too) jt: Tell me Lance why the nature of Jesus' humanity is so central? If it is so central why did Paul waste so much of the Lord's time preaching the "centrality of the cross" rather than the centrality of Jesus' humanity? Where Judy, is the Spirit Who leads YOU (or David) into all truth on a matter so central to the Gospel? jt: Please tell me why Jesus humanity is so central for you? I accept that He took upon himself the "likeness" of man but we must face the fact that he was ALWAYS holy and without spot and we are not. Have you ever considered this Lance? I mean really thought about it. (I may just lurk for the outcome of this one) Will you confess, repent and enlighten all of those (family and friends) you've lead astray? When God or someone with more than just an opinion shows me in His Word how and where I have been leading ppl astray. From: Judy Taylor How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The d ifference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning. You don't seem to think that is possible.By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as giving you an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instruct us on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org BR If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to L [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL
Re: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma
Does anyone know where I could go to see an actual copy of the LXX? Where was it found? If there are NONE in existance, could it just be conjecture? --- Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi David, you have the LXX don't you? Check out its translation of this word translated established in the KJV. It may shed some light on your thoughts as it pertains to a connection between this verse and Lance's post. Those old Jews may have had a pretty good understanding of the Hebrew language and how to translate it over into the common language of their day. Bill - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma You did knock me off my chair with this one, Lance. ROTFLOL! A Scripture reference from Lance? ??? You can be sure that I looked this up right away. I don't see its direct relationship to the quote you gave. The passage speaks of the relationship between faith and being established. The quote deals with the relationship between faith and understanding. I need more context of the quote to consider it more fully. I'm not saying I disagree with it. I'm just raising my eyebrows in lacking context, and when I saw Blaine's interpretation and your amen, I wrinkled my eyebrows a bit. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma May I suggest David, that you check out Isaiah chapter 7 with a special focus on verse 9? What's that, just as he's about to depart, the relativist lib quotes Scripture? At least we can hope that he has done so inaccurately. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 10:04 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma Lance wrote: Someone has said that 'unless we believe we will not understand and, it is only if we believe that we will understand. There is no understanding without the commitment of the mind to objective reality and to its natural or intrinsic intelligibility. Blainer wrote: This could be the most fundamental truth I have encountered on TT. ... It suggests that one can choose to disbelieve something, even in the face of strong evidence that it is true. Or, on the other hand, that one can choose to believe something, even if it is obviously not true. ... They choose to believe or disbelieve for reasons other than logic and/or scriptural evidence. It seems to me that the statement sets up a false idea of what understanding is. Understanding that is based upon emotion is lame and prone to all kinds of error and falsehood. It seems to me that the statement says that one must commit oneself to an object before they can understand it. This suggests, as you say, that understanding is not based upon logic, but upon commitment of the mind regardless of facts. Upon what basis can one commit oneself if not understanding? The only thing I can think of is emotion. Maybe someone else can suggest some other motivation for making a commitment. In the context of spiritual realities, there is a measure of truth to what is being said, because spiritual realities are not perceived by the physical senses. Tapping into that sixth sense of man to perceive a spiritual reality requires a commitment toward that object, and one cannot understand until one first perceives it. However, understanding itself is not based upon commitment but upon logic and reason. This is where the statement falls short. The approach is too holisitic. It would cause us in the end to have a superficial and faulty perspective about just what understanding is and what it requires. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
"YOUR SCRIPTURES' THAT JUDY IS THE PROBLEM. It is called perspectivalism. There is truth. There is absolute truth. SOMETIMES it is even that which you/David cite/speak/proclaim. However, sometimes that which either/both of you cite/speak/proclaim is partially or completely FALSE. Would either/both of you acknowledge this? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 09:49 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 JD you need to be taken to task for your scandalous misquoting. You have no idea what DM is saying but you constantly mock at the way he expresses himself and take personal offense If you don't agree with him then get your scriptures together and challenge him. Noone has the whole loaf JD but the effect of what I believe is taking me from glory to glory - you should have seen what I was and I am nowhere near what I will be in spike of naysayers like you, Lance, and whoever else is one with you in your folly. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:36:51 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do not scoff at you -- but this teaching, absolutely.The fact that neither you nor DM can effectively deal with the consequences of your own teaching is evidence that I am correct (well, ok, Lance too)to a passionate conviction of "certainty." Rather than pointing out the fact of my socffetry, why not correct the content of my statement? In other words, prove me wrong JDFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com And JD sits in the seat of the scornful/scoffer - either is appropriate!! On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:41:52 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For those of us who are onlookers - how do we decide, here? Judy's opinion is clearly NOT just an opinionin her view - rather one of those "infallible" thingy's. The fact tht DM is clearly correcting her reveals that he, too, speaks ex-cathedra Do we not see what this false teaching brings us to? And what is that?"Only I amright by the giftedness of the Indwelling." An impossible doctrine, at best. The veryheight of arrogance at worse. JD From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com I am a whole lot more concerned with the "Risen Christ" Lance - I don't need to have a "weak in the flesh" Christ or an "eternal son" Christ. He did defeat principalities, powers, and wicked spirits and he made a show of them openly. He has handed us the victory so now it is up to us to walk in it. Jesus overcame in the wilderness by using the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. Now Lance, if I were going to take what you write seriously I would have to go to the Lord and tell Him that the Comforter He sent me to lead me into all truth is not doing His job and helping me because after 25+ years I am still not able to apprehend that for which I am apprehended and so therefore my Sword is useless. Lance said so. jt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:39:58 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed Judy, one can take that to the bank. However, often your understanding of these selfsame Scriptures are not 'bankable'. I'm watching the conversation between you and David. This then is proof positive. You would agree, would you not that ONE OF YOU IS MISAPPREHENDING THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE REGARDING THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST?. From: Judy Taylor Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say "It is written" and as the saying goes "take it to the Bank" From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sorry David but this is a meaningless statement in this context. There is not a single participant who'd not subscribe to what you've said hereunder. (opinion-low, Bible-high) Do you know the _expression_ 'its like attempting to nail jello'? I will have departed TT actually 'knowing' you to have been wrong as to your understanding of Scripture and its employment in teaching and life.(NOT broadly and, on every issue) This being the case one's confidence in other matters is genuinely subject to serious questioning. From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: July 21, 2005 12:10Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Just yesterday, DM wrote these words, "There are some issues I know infallibily." I do not allow for ex cathedra with the Pope. None of my mentor's speak with a "I cannot possibly be wrong" certainty -- none. Judy, my dear, you are seldom TOTALLYmistaken, but in this case - you have done yourself in. JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:31:57 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 The difference JD is that neither of us claim infallibility - that is the realm of your mentors and the Pope who is the head mentor. I know David has ministry gifts working but they are also subject to examination.You put the infallible label on him. I think you Lance, Bill et al have a totally wrong concept of what DM is saying and what I am saying also. You appear to run things through the grid of the Church Fathers, Athanasius, Gregory, Augustine, etc. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:24:42 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy, you miss my point, completely. You claim to be led by the Spirit into a non-interpretive understanding of the biblical text. So does DM. You both cannot be right,either in yourdoctrinal opinion of the issue at hand or in your (you and/or DM) claim that the work of the Spiritincludes an infallible impartation of knowing. Because of the postulated truth that no two individuals agree in total, this "infallible" thingy always takes us to the irresistible conclusionthat only one person in this world is right. Since DM lays claim to apostleship and the office of Proph et, my money will be on him (this is in spite of my obviously preference for you). The only task remaining is for DM to issue a series of statements revealing those teachings that cannot possibly be wrong (seriously) and we will, thus, know the boundry of public discussion that lend itself to true dialogue. Since dM agrees with 90% of what I believe, we can only assume that the total body of ex cathedra related material represents only 10% of that which is represented in the biblical message. presenting us (here on TT) with much to discuss . No, wait !!! The 10% th at DM disagrees with is "infallible" content. Right? And if he agrees with me on the remaining 90% -- well, that would mean tha he and I are standing in agreement - "infallible understanding" embraced in a communi ty of thought, as it were. S, I guess I could speak on the 90% with a sense of infallibility, surrendering to DM on the remaining 10% Now (and once again), all we need to know is what teachings are included in that 10% Perhaps DM could help us out. JD-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:41:04 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 My statement below has nothing at all to do with DavidM or Bill for that matter. Why are you stirring the pot JD? All I can say is "if the shoe fits" I have not become a judge over men/women. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:30:07 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy, your statement below means, of course, that your discussion with David over the "sinful flesh" of Christ issue is only about you seeking (eventually) to correct DM in the spirit you correct Bill. And, to the degree DM agrees withyour statement -- ditto. So are you two exchanging views at all? JD Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say "It is written" and as the saying goes "take it to the Bank"
Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: greetings from ky: long version
A perspectivalism!! - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 09:40 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: greetings from ky: long version Ahh, isn't America just wonderful? :-) iz -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 3:50 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: [TruthTalk] Fw: greetings from ky: long version - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: July 20, 2005 21:10 Subject: greetings from ky: long version We are in the heart of the kind of country where there is a flag on every house or lawn and a bumper sticker on two out of three vehicles that reads "We support our troops." At the tourist bureau in Ohio there was a sign on the door: "It is illegal to carry any firearm, deadly weapon or ordnance on these premises." Leave your cannons at home, folks. Now we're in Kentucky, in the hills; the signs at fast food restaurants are all 100 feet high so they can be seen in this very humpy countryside. We are staying in a small but clean and modern motel near the I65, on a narrow, winding rural road, flanked by Aunt Bee's Restaurant and overlooking a large, green, lovely, unkempt, tussocky meadow. We got off the highway too early and in the space of about five miles must have passed no less than 16 or 17 churches on the one country road--Friendship Baptist, First Baptist, Baptist Missionary, New Life Fellowship, New Horizons Fellowship, Church of God of Prophecy, Gospel Assembly, you name it, literally one every quarter mile or so. (There is also a thing about the Ten Commandments. We have seen them writ large on a billboard and on the window of a storefront church in a small town. "Repent Now" signs also appear here and there.) When we reached the road we wanted, we went the wrong direction first and drove by a farm gate with two boar's heads on it. Real ones. Dorothy, we're not in Ontario anymore. The road is very narrow and winding but paved--what you just don't find in our countryside where all the roads that lead anywhere are wide and follow straight along the surveyors' lines, and only major ones are paved. It feels weird. On the other side of the highway from the motel and down a short distance is the sad little town of Horse Cave--we're in the Mammoth Cave region--in which pretty little wooden houses sit cheek by jowl with tumbledown ramshackle ones, and by that I mean houses whose shadowy porches still have people sitting in swings but which would have been condemned long ago in Ontario, sections of their roofs collapsed or missing, windows broken, doors sagging on their hinges, the wood showing hardly any paint anymore. It's incredible there are still people living in them. Next to the disused railway tracks stands the wreck of what must have been an old station hotel when the town was booming. It is a melancholy sight. A bit further down the highway is a village hyperbolically dubbed Cave City, in which half of the establishments are defunct. But in amongst these sites are a fair number of large elegant new houses set far back from the road. So today we visited the Mammoth Caves, the world's longest cave system, 365 miles of passageway explored so far. We were under 250 feet of limestone. Very impressive. We decided against the six-hour tour consisting mostly of crawling through tight spaces, taking instead the two-hour tour which only requires you to turn sideways a few times or duck now and then to fit through a small passage. At some points on the path (it had railings) you could look up or down a good 80 feet or so into these vertical shafts left by water. We kept imagining we were in Moria and heard orcs and cave trolls. "Fool of a Took!" "You...shall...not... pass!" "Fly, you fools! Fly!" Apparently people have played violins or trumpets in these caves, or have sung down there, and the effect is supposed to be magnificent. I can only imagine. One of the nicest things about the caves was the temperature. It is killingly hot here--all the cows in the fields are standing in ponds, like water buffaloes in Asia--but in the caves it was a pleasant 18C or thereabouts, and quite dry. When we came out again it felt like we had suddenly entered a tropical rainforest; I could just feel the H2O going into my lungs with every breath. I think a pair of gills would come in handy. Later we went to the birthplace of Lincoln, which is nearby and is a national site, and saw the
Re: [TruthTalk] Humanity of Jesus
I know the scripture says it was a sign, what in the statement makes it exclusionary? JUST a sign? --- David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Terry wrote: Tell me, David. If Jesus was born with the same nature as us, why would He have had to be born of a virgin and sired by God? A hooker and a junkie could have given us another man with a sin nature. What am I missing in your thinking? What you are missing is that God required both. If he was the product of a hooker and a junkie, he would have been like other men but not God. If he bypassed Mary entirely and just came to earth in his own form without the flesh, or created his own unique flesh, then he would have been God but not related to man. To be both God and Man required the unique way in which he was born, but I must also point out that being born of a virgin was primarily a sign and not a necessity of what God was doing in becoming flesh. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
JD wrote: Judy's opinion is clearly NOT just an opinion in her view - rather one of those infallible thingy's. The fact tht DM is clearly correcting her reveals that he, too, speaks ex-cathedra Wrong, John. Neither one of us is speaking infallibly or ex-cathedra on this issue. We are seeking to understand one another and share our knowledge with one another. Do you have a problem with that? I see nothing inappropriate with our discussion, nor do I see how it proves that the Spirit does not reveal truth to both of us. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Patience, Lance. Patience. Judy and I both have hope to achieve a mutually beneficial understanding in the end. What we are discussing is not a life or death issue. The truth is that Judy and I are in more agreement than you probably realize right now. Most of our differences hinge upon a different understanding of the words we use. -David. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 8:38 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter' At last we've been presented with the opportunity to demonstrate this 'He will lead you into all truth' thingy is misunderstood by those who have most often cited it (Judy, David). Both are faithful servants of the Lord, both have 'studied to show themselves approved', both are 'berean' in their approachHOWEVER ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO WEASEL OUT IN THE END SANS A SATISFACTORY CONCLUSION! One is more committed to belief than reality. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
It is not that we do not or cannot understand. Rather, it is that we do understand but reject the message. No man comes to Christ except the Father draw him -- God being involved in the life of all whoare dealing with the Christ issue.Philip 2:13 ".. for it is God at work in you ..." is a statement of fact for us all -- saved and unsaved. If we we are "lost," we are so without excuse! God in Christ has broken down all the barriers( read: reconciled all things unto Himself) and has a presence within each of us (different from a filling of the Spirit). The lost reject this reconciliation and God's"draw" within. We are probably in agreement -- but with different words JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:40:47 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 I don't see any of this nearly as complicated as everyone is making it. A "spiritually dead" person is going to hell when he physically dies. He already doesn't "get it" about things of the Spirit. A "spiritually alive" person is heaven-bound. He understands things of the Spirit. One is living in satan's realm (death); the other is living in God's (life: "My words are Spirit and Life"). That's the difference. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 4:42 PM To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Bill. I have been reading with interest your dialogue with Judy. The idea of "spiritual death" has some logical inconsistencies that you seem to be pointing out. Your focus on death being a metaphor is making me think! That's a good thing. :-) Some of the problems I have had over my lifetime with the "spiritual death" perspective is the following: 1. The body without the spirit is dead, so if the spirit is dead, how can one be alive? This assumes, of course, that spiritual death means that the spirit is dead. Jt: when I say dead David I mean dead in the same sense as blessing vs. cursing. Someone Who is cursed is walking in death while they live. This does not mean that their spirit is literally dead or that they are physically dead - it means that if something does not change they will inherit both in the last day. 2. If people were spiritually dead in the Old Testament times, how did they write prophecy and such? How does anyone do anything good at all if they are dead in their spirit? All good ultimately comes from God, does it not, and how can this good come through us except through the spirit? Jt: Is what appears to be good outwardly always good and is what is evil always look evil ie: if the light within you be darkness (deception) how great is that darkness. 3. John says that Christ is the light that lighteth every man that comes into the world. How can that happen if virtually everyone is "spiritually dead"? Jt: It happens because Jesus is the Creator; he is the one who spoke the worlds into existence; and ultimately He was the one who fulfilled Zechariah 12:1b. As for spiritual death in such a circumstance.. What does it mean to say that a woman who lives for pleasure is "dead while she lives?" One way of remedy here is to perceive "spiritual death" as something that is less than perfect death. In other words, there is so much darkness that we might call it being spiritually dead, but that does not mean complete and total darkness. Of course, if we take this perspective, then why not take the same approach in regards to physical death with Adam and Eve? I think it was Ireneus who said that they were given over to death on that very day. In other words, death began its work, they died that very day, but it took time for the full effect of it to be manifested. Jt: They lost their "open-line" to God on that day; they experienced fear and shame which before this time were unknown to them and not long after that their son Cain committed the first murder. Wrong spirit produces wrong fruit. They had chosen a new spiritual counsellor and it proceeded from bad to worse until within a few generations God saw the need to kill everyone but one family. Another observation I might make is that I think often people use that word "spiritually" as a metaphor itself. In other words, when they think "spiritually dead" they are really thinking along the lines of dead metaphorically speaking. Jt: I have a Noah Webster 1828 dictionary here which tells me a metaphor should be just one word, otherwise it would be a similitude rather than a metaphor. I don't believe these scriptures are using either myself. Why not let scripture say what it says and ask the Holy Spirit for the correct understanding? Where do you suppose the adversary or the Strongman builds his structures? What part of the house? He is spirit also. Why does scripture speak of the sanctification of the spirit? All three can be
Re: [TruthTalk] Humanity of Jesus
David, does it not fit well with your THEOLOGY of Perfection? You therefore accept the PECCABILITY of Christ also? --- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Judy wrote: ... I am curious about you. Why do you have to have a Jesus born into the same sin, frailty, and weakness as us? I don't have to have it this way. I learned this from the Scriptures. I already gave you some passages. Here are a few others: Hebrews 5:7-9 (7) Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; (8) Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; (9) And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Notice the phrase here, in the days of his flesh. This was a significant event. Compare this with the passages I already shared in the last post. jt: Maybe I don't read as much into it as you do David. To me in the days of his flesh means before the cross and we know when he offered up these prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears - in the garden of Gethsemane. If I knew that was before me it would be that and more. Consider the next one too: Hebrews 2:9-18 (9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (10) For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. (11) For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, (12) Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. (13) And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. (14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; (15) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (16) For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. (17) Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. (18) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Just read this Scripture, Judy. How can you miss it? Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, why? To experience mortality! To experience death. To be made like us in every way. To be made perfect through sufferings, the same way we are perfected. Look at verse 11, both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one. This is the reason he calls us brethren. jt: Remember David that this is written AFTER the cross ie he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified - New Birth - Holy Spirit - we are one in the same way that He and the Father were one during His earthly ministry. He was made just like us. Look at verse 14. He says, as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same. jt: Yes he had a flesh and blood body with the same limitations as the ones we have only he was not just like us David. The difference is one of heart/holiness and God gave the Spirit without measure to Him (John 3:34) We have nothing like that going on. His mind didn't have to be renewed - at the age of 12yrs He knew more than the teachers at the temple and there is no record that he was ever physically sick. The reason given here is the same as in Romans 8:3 where he says that he was made in the likeness of SINFUL flesh. That he might have power over the bad aspects of the flesh, which include death and the law of sin and death that resides in the flesh. jt: David I still do not accept that likeness is same as the real thing, or even that it was necessary that He have the same weakYes He condemned sin in the flesh by fulfilling the Law in his own life following which He lay down His physical life for us on a sinner's cross so that ultimately He became an eternal sacrifice. If He came with the same flesh weakness that we have inherited he wouldn't have kept the law either. Think about it. Jesus living in Romans 7 along with Paul. Then read verse 16. How much clearer can he be? He took on him the SEED of Abraham. His FLESH was descended from the seed of Abraham. There it is right there in
Re: [TruthTalk] questions for Kevin . . (was playing chess . . . etc).
How about your comments on being a Mormon AND a Historian? --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Terry Clifton wrote: Don't pay too much attention to Mormons or sociologists. Neither of them have a good grasp of reality. Terry Blainerb Are we playing to the crowd here, or are we telling it like it is, with facts for back-up? Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] The Spalding Enigma
David Miller wrote: True faith is rational not emotional. JD wrote: Nonsense. I do not believe in emotionalism -- but faith as in conviction is an emotion. Emotional conviction is a pseudo-faith. It is the counterfeit to true faith. Have you ever heard the expression, faith is knowing there is an ocean because you have seen a creek? That is not a precise definition of faith, but it captures the rational aspects of faith. Have you ever seen someone get all emotional and claim, I'm going to walk on water like Jesus! I've known some to do so, and they step off the dock and sink like anybody else would who has no faith. Guess what? They did not believe. It was pseudo-faith. I understand that tourists to Israel jump off the boats on the Sea of Galilee all the time, thinking they are going to walk on water like Jesus. Well, you know what happens to them? They sink. It is a counterfeit faith. Whenever I have seen faith work miracles, healing the sick, delivering the insane, multiplying food or money, calming storms, etc., the faith is not emotional at all. It is very peaceful and rational, and it works wonders. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Judy !! You are taking this much too personal. I do see what you are and have made that clear. I will restate ... Judy Taylor, I think you would actually die for the Lord!! Few on this forum can match your sincerity or your sense of conviction. I don't doubt for a second that the Great God Almighty looks down on you with great pleasure!! He sees in your thought process nothing to fault - if Christ were a circle, you would be found standing squarely in the middle. There are times when you can be frustrating and even a little harsh (actually, a lot harsh). But you never speak from the headiness of intellectual pride. Your personal story of victory in the Lord isinspiring and the sadness ofpersonal disappointment is occasionally written between the lines. There is a very real sense in which I can say that I love Judy Taylor. Never, ever misunderstand this. I still disagree with you on this infallible thing, however. John Smithson-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:49:24 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 JD you need to be taken to task for your scandalous misquoting. You have no idea what DM is saying but you constantly mock at the way he expresses himself and take personal offense If you don't agree with him then get your scriptures together and challenge him. Noone has the whole loaf JD but the effect of what I believe is taking me from glory to glory - you should have seen what I was and I am nowhere near what I will be in spike of naysayers like you, Lance, and whoever else is one with you in your folly. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 09:36:51 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I do not scoff at you -- but this teaching, absolutely.The fact that neither you nor DM can effectively deal with the consequences of your own teaching is evidence that I am correct (well, ok, Lance too)to a passionate conviction of "certainty." Rather than pointing out the fact of my socffetry, why not correct the content of my statement? In other words, prove me wrong JDFrom: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com And JD sits in the seat of the scornful/scoffer - either is appropriate!! On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:41:52 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For those of us who are onlookers - how do we decide, here? Judy's opinion is clearly NOT just an opinionin her view - rather one of those "infallible" thingy's. The fact tht DM is clearly correcting her reveals that he, too, speaks ex-cathedra Do we not see what this false teaching brings us to? And what is that?"Only I amright by the giftedness of the Indwelling." An impossible doctrine, at best. The veryheight of arrogance at worse. JD From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com I am a whole lot more concerned with the "Risen Christ" Lance - I don't need to have a "weak in the flesh" Christ or an "eternal son" Christ. He did defeat principalities, powers, and wicked spirits and he made a show of them openly. He has handed us the victory so now it is up to us to walk in it. Jesus overcame in the wilderness by using the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. Now Lance, if I were going to take what you write seriously I would have to go to the Lord and tell Him that the Comforter He sent me to lead me into all truth is not doing His job and helping me because after 25+ years I am still not able to apprehend that for which I am apprehended and so therefore my Sword is useless. Lance said so. jt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:39:58 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed Judy, one can take that to the bank. However, often your understanding of these selfsame Scriptures are not 'bankable'. I'm watching the conversation between you and David. This then is proof positive. You would agree, would you not that ONE OF YOU IS MISAPPREHENDING THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE REGARDING THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST?. From: Judy Taylor Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say "It is written" and as the saying goes "take it to the Bank" From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sorry David but this is a meaningless statement in this context. There is not a single participant who'd not subscribe to what you've said hereunder. (opinion-low, Bible-high) Do you know the _expression_ 'its like attempting to nail jello'? I will have departed TT actually 'knowing' you to have been wrong as to your understanding of Scripture and its employment in teaching and life.(NOT broadly and, on every issue) This being the case one's confidence in other matters is genuinely subject to serious questioning. From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: July 21, 2005 12:10Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: Who, pray tell David, occupies the position you've described. Do you know such a
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
BUT THEY MUST else Lance must acKNOWLEDGE that he too is walking in Darkness --- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The difference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning. You don't seem to think that is possible. By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as giving you an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instruct us on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
I do believe we must have entered the realm of jabberwocky!! WDYT? From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] BUT THEY MUST else Lance must acKNOWLEDGE that he too is walking inDarkness --- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The difference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning.You don't seem to think that is possible. By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as givingyou an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instructus on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]It is not that we do not or cannot understand. Rather, it is that we do understand but reject the message. jt: This is interesting JD - what's wrong with the message? It's Bible. You must be Born Again. Raised from spiritual death to spiritual life IOW by hearing His Voice and not hardening your heart. No man comes to Christ except the Father draw him -- jt: Right! God draws men by way of the "foolishness of preaching" They hear God's Word and the Spirit works in their hard old heart after telling the spirit clouding their mind to "shut up" God being involved in the life of all who are dealing with the Christ issue. jt: So what is the Christ issue? Aside from His Word that is? Philip 2:13 ".. for it is God at work in you ..." is a statement of fact for us all -- saved and unsaved. jt: Nonsense. The unsaved have the devil working in them (see Ephesians 2:1) If we we are "lost," we are so without excuse! jt: Yes because it is God's will that all come to the knowledge of truth and He will make a way for them to hear. God in Christ has broken down all the barriers ( read: reconciled all things unto Himself) jt: The above is objective truth. and has a presence within each of us (different from a filling of the Spirit). jt: The above is not truth at all it is presumption - how is God present in those who reject Him? The lost reject this reconciliation and God's "draw" within. jt: The lost have been estranged from the womb and they reject His voice just like Israel did in the wilderness - they harden their hearts and stiffen their necks. We are probably in agreement -- but with different words jt: I don't think so JD - this is a "great gulf" - it's more than just semantics. We have two different gospels here.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Why are you stirring the pot JD? ROTFL --- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My statement below has nothing at all to do with DavidM or Bill for that matter.Why are you stirring the pot JD? All I can say is if the shoe fits I have not become a judge over men/women. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:30:07 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy, your statement below means, of course, that your discussion with David over the sinful flesh of Christ issue is only about you seeking (eventually) to correct DM in the spirit you correct Bill. And, to the degree DM agrees with your statement -- ditto. So are you two exchanging views at all? JD Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say It is written and as the saying goes take it to the Bank __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
And the alternative is: Get an Authoratative PONTIFF like you? Just give up and become a expert at movies like Lance since we really can not find TRUTH? --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those of us who are onlookers - how do we decide, here? Judy's opinion is clearly NOT just an opinion in her view - rather one of those infallible thingy's. The fact tht DM is clearly correcting her reveals that he, too, speaks ex-cathedra Do we not see what this false teaching brings us to? And what is that? Only I am right by the giftedness of the Indwelling. An impossible doctrine, at best. The very height of arrogance at worse. JD -Original Message- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:59:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 I am a whole lot more concerned with the Risen Christ Lance - I don't need to have a weak in the flesh Christ or an eternal son Christ. He did defeat principalities, powers, and wicked spirits and he made a show of them openly. He has handed us the victory so now it is up to us to walk in it. Jesus overcame in the wilderness by using the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. Now Lance, if I were going to take what you write seriously I would have to go to the Lord and tell Him that the Comforter He sent me to lead me into all truth is not doing His job and helping me because after 25+ years I am still not able to apprehend that for which I am apprehended and so therefore my Sword is useless. Lance said so. jt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:39:58 -0400 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed Judy, one can take that to the bank. However, often your understanding of these selfsame Scriptures are not 'bankable'. I'm watching the conversation between you and David. This then is proof positive. You would agree, would you not that ONE OF YOU IS MISAPPREHENDING THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE REGARDING THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST?. From: Judy Taylor Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say It is written and as the saying goes take it to the Bank From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sorry David but this is a meaningless statement in this context. There is not a single participant who'd not subscribe to what you've said hereunder. (opinion-low, Bible-high) Do you know the expression 'its like attempting to nail jello'? I will have departed TT actually 'knowing' you to have been wrong as to your understanding of Scripture and its employment in teaching and life.(NOT broadly and, on every issue) This being the case one's confidence in other matters is genuinely subject to serious questioning. From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 12:10 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: Who, pray tell David, occupies the position you've described. Do you know such a person and, will you introduce her/him to us? Who? Me, Judy, Terry, Izzy, Kevin, etc. We all take the position that our opinion means little. What is important is what the Bible says. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Maybe he is blind because it is his nature? LOST --- Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't criticize people Lance. We are working in two different arenas and I can't figure out why you are so blind to it. I challenge doctrine and you criticize people. One is sin the other is expected as part of our walk in Christ which Mormons have not yet begun. since they are disciples of Joseph Smith and will become like their teacher. jt. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:59:42 -0400 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF THAT'S ALL IT PROVES then, may I suggest that you BACK OFF ANY CRITICISMS OF ANYONE due to the operative proviso 'that we (they- Mormons et al) are at different places in their walk' From: Judy Taylor You never give up do you Lance? All this proves is that we are at different places in our walk. I have seen David explain this to you in the clearest way possible but you apparently did not accept that. There is only ONE who has always been perfect. The rest of us are learning and rest includes David and me. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 08:38:04 -0400 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At last we've been presented with the opportunity to demonstrate this 'He will lead you into all truth' thingy is misunderstood by those who have most often cited it (Judy, David). Both are faithful servants of the Lord, both have 'studied to show themselves approved', both are 'berean' in their approachHOWEVER ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO WEASEL OUT IN THE END SANS A SATISFACTORY CONCLUSION! One is more committed to belief than reality. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Doncha just love the built-in patronizing attitutude of some.'more in agreement than you probably realize'. Really, David! Perhaps not. You're lucid almost always, David. You're not always smart. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 10:13 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter' Patience, Lance. Patience. Judy and I both have hope to achieve a mutually beneficial understanding in the end. What we are discussing is not a life or death issue. The truth is that Judy and I are in more agreement than you probably realize right now. Most of our differences hinge upon a different understanding of the words we use. -David. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 8:38 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter' At last we've been presented with the opportunity to demonstrate this 'He will lead you into all truth' thingy is misunderstood by those who have most often cited it (Judy, David). Both are faithful servants of the Lord, both have 'studied to show themselves approved', both are 'berean' in their approachHOWEVER ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO WEASEL OUT IN THE END SANS A SATISFACTORY CONCLUSION! One is more committed to belief than reality. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Do you truly not see as God sees on this issue, David? Might you be wrong? - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 10:17 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 JD wrote: Judy's opinion is clearly NOT just an opinion in her view - rather one of those infallible thingy's. The fact tht DM is clearly correcting her reveals that he, too, speaks ex-cathedra Wrong, John. Neither one of us is speaking infallibly or ex-cathedra on this issue. We are seeking to understand one another and share our knowledge with one another. Do you have a problem with that? I see nothing inappropriate with our discussion, nor do I see how it proves that the Spirit does not reveal truth to both of us. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Klaus Nomi, the one hit wonder agrees with David Judy
I guess God will just have to sort it out on judgement day. --- Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but not with Lance, Bill, John and Gary (put your hand up, Gary just to show us that you're still here). David July claim not only to know themselves but, also us. They further claim that we don't/can't know them (even some beliefs/character traits they don't perceive concerning themselves) through TT. This simply demonstrates that they, in reality, don't know themselves. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Izzy in bold blue: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 8:33 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Bill in green. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 9:34 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Izzy in pink! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 2:44 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Bill in red. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 10:33 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Izzy in blue: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 8:15 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 I know Im not up on your doctrinal issues, Bill, so please tell me why you seem to reject the idea of someone being spiritually dead prior to being born again of the Spirit. Id appreciate it. izzy There are numerous reasons why I reject this doctrine,Izzy, the foremost of which is because I believe it is impossible for Jesus to have been spiritually dead at any point in his lifetime. True. Paul tells us thatJesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh and that it was in his flesh that he destroyed sin. I believe that it is absolutely essential that Christ had to assume sinful flesh in order to save us in our sinful flesh. If he did not have the same flesh as we, then he did not defeat sin in our flesh -- it's as simple as that. Hence we are still in our sin andhe did nothing to restore or revive us in his resurrection. Stated another way, if he was born with flesh other than our kind, which is sinful, then he may have avoided sin in his kind of flesh, but he left us in the sin of ours; hence he is not our Savior. I dont follow you here, Bill. We ARE still in our sinful flesh unless/until we are born again of the Spirit, as Jesus told Nicodemus. Jesus accomplished that deliverance (to those who become born again) for us on the cross. I understand the distinction you are drawing, Izzy, and it is a very common and orthodox one at that; however I am not convinced that this born again event is something which happens at a point in our twenty-first century lifetime. I am leaning instead toward the view that were born again in Christ in his resurrection. You can read my comments to Kevin for more on this. I know you think that, but that is nonsensical to me. In your viewpoint everyone is born born-again? Yes, in Christ in his resurrection,BUT not everyone is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus Christ. What we call our conversion experience does happen in this lifetime, and sometimes this can beaprofound and life-altering experience; other times it is not so profound for people who have grown up in the church and spent their lifetimes worshiping the Lord. Bill I see your response as unbiblical. Jesus told Nicodemus: Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. So we are not born again when we are born. Please reconsider this and tell me again, Do you really think we are born (in the natural flesh as newborns) already born again of the Spirit? Being born again IS our conversion experience. If you grew up in the church you still need to be born again, as this is not something that comes over you by osmosis. I think we are prone to base too much of our faith in religious experience and not trained well enough at basing it in the object of that faith: Jesus Christ. I watched a saintlyninety year old elder of our church break down and weep because he did not know forsure if he had been born again. He had grown up in the church and could notremember a time that he did not believed in Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of those earth-shaking conversion experiences that others had had. We, the church, had placed so much emphasis on that born again experience that we had misled godly people into doubting their salvation. The weight of the world was upon this man's shoulders, and he could not withstand the weight of it. He was as godly as anyone you would ever meet, had served the Lord faithfully his whole life, yet believe in spiritual death and the necessity to be born again and thus could not place his finger on a point in his life when he stopped being spiritually dead and started being aborn again believer. We did that to him -- not theLord. Jesus was not speaking of a religious experienceHe was speaking of a real
RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
Are you describing TT to a TEE? One correction one is living in satan's realm (world and the things of the world) --- ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see any of this nearly as complicated as everyone is making it. A spiritually dead person is going to hell when he physically dies. He already doesn't get it about things of the Spirit. A spiritually alive person is heaven-bound. He understands things of the Spirit. One is living in satan's realm (death); the other is living in God's (life: My words are Spirit and Life). That's the difference. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 4:42 PM To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Bill. I have been reading with interest your dialogue with Judy. The idea of spiritual death has some logical inconsistencies that you seem to be pointing out. Your focus on death being a metaphor is making me think! That's a good thing. :-) Some of the problems I have had over my lifetime with the spiritual death perspective is the following: 1. The body without the spirit is dead, so if the spirit is dead, how can one be alive? This assumes, of course, that spiritual death means that the spirit is dead. Jt: when I say dead David I mean dead in the same sense as blessing vs. cursing. Someone Who is cursed is walking in death while they live. This does not mean that their spirit is literally dead or that they are physically dead - it means that if something does not change they will inherit both in the last day. 2. If people were spiritually dead in the Old Testament times, how did they write prophecy and such? How does anyone do anything good at all if they are dead in their spirit? All good ultimately comes from God, does it not, and how can this good come through us except through the spirit? Jt: Is what appears to be good outwardly always good and is what is evil always look evil ie: if the light within you be darkness (deception) how great is that darkness. 3. John says that Christ is the light that lighteth every man that comes into the world. How can that happen if virtually everyone is spiritually dead? Jt: It happens because Jesus is the Creator; he is the one who spoke the worlds into existence; and ultimately He was the one who fulfilled Zechariah 12:1b. As for spiritual death in such a circumstance.. What does it mean to say that a woman who lives for pleasure is dead while she lives? One way of remedy here is to perceive spiritual death as something that is less than perfect death. In other words, there is so much darkness that we might call it being spiritually dead, but that does not mean complete and total darkness. Of course, if we take this perspective, then why not take the same approach in regards to physical death with Adam and Eve? I think it was Ireneus who said that they were given over to death on that very day. In other words, death began its work, they died that very day, but it took time for the full effect of it to be manifested. Jt: They lost their open-line to God on that day; they experienced fear and shame which before this time were unknown to them and not long after that their son Cain committed the first murder. Wrong spirit produces wrong fruit. They had chosen a new spiritual counsellor and it proceeded from bad to worse until within a few generations God saw the need to kill everyone but one family. Another observation I might make is that I think often people use that word spiritually as a metaphor itself. In other words, when they think spiritually dead they are really thinking along the lines of dead metaphorically speaking. Jt: I have a Noah Webster 1828 dictionary here which tells me a metaphor should be just one word, otherwise it would be a similitude rather than a metaphor. I don't believe these scriptures are using either myself. Why not let scripture say what it says and ask the Holy Spirit for the correct understanding? Where do you suppose the adversary or the Strongman builds his structures? What part of the house? He is spirit also. Why does scripture speak of the sanctification of the spirit? All three can be defiled (body, soul/mind, spirit). Why do some find it so easy to take the Godhead and divide it into three parts all dancing with each other and yet insist that triune man has to be one entity - a human being and that is all. Will we just throw out what we don't understand; stay in darkness in these areas and let the devil take the day? judyt -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will
RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
Obviously your Bible translation left out Jesus conversation with Nicodemus. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:31 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 Some questions: Why is it that the sinner's prayer is nowhere to be found in scripture or even hinted at? Why is it that the phrase born again Christian is nowhere used in the biblical message and can only be established as we justify several passages of scripture? Whyis it that no evangelist in biblical litgives the command ye must be born again? JD -Original Message- From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com To: truthtalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thu, 21 Jul 2005 12:14:12 -0400 Subject: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 How terribly sad - did somebody counsel andpray with this man who wasobviously under conviction of the Spirit? You are judginghim by outward appearances Bill. You can't know what goes on in the hearts of ppl - folk can make a great showing after the flesh or some mayjust live in quiet desperation. I would have taken this dear man seriously enough to go overthe scriptures and pray with him so he can be sure of his eternal destiny rather than give him some false assurance. A born again person whois right with God knows they are born again and right with God. If they don't know this it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying out for help. Bill writes: Yes, in Christ in his resurrection,BUT not everyone is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, that comes by way of belief or faith in Jesus Christ. What we call our conversion experience does happen in this lifetime, and sometimes this can beaprofound and life-altering experience; other times it is not so profound for people who have grown up in the church and spent their lifetimes worshiping the Lord. I think we are prone to base too much of our faith in religious experience and not trained well enough at basing it in the object of that faith: Jesus Christ. I watched a saintlyninety year old elder of our church break down and weep because he did not know forsure if he had been born again. He had grown up in the church and could notremember a time that he did not believed in Jesus Christ, yet he had never had one of those earth-shaking conversion experiences that others had had. We, the church, had placed so much emphasis on that born again experience that we had misled godly people into doubting their salvation. The weight of the world was upon this man's shoulders, and he could not withstand the weight of it. He was as godly as anyone you would ever meet, had served the Lord faithfully his whole life, yet believe in spiritual death and the necessity to be born again and thus could not place his finger on a point in his life when he stopped being spiritually dead and started being aborn again believer. We did that to him -- not theL ord.
RE: [TruthTalk] questions for Kevin . . (was playing chess . . . etc).
Only the ALL KNOWING God of the whole universe could tell the future! --- ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ps 41:9 9Even my close friend in whom I trusted, Who ate my bread, Has lifted up his heel against me. _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Hansen Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 11:30 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] questions for Kevin . . (was playing chess . . . etc). DAVEH: ???is vs 12 a reference to Scripture that had been lost? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainer: Guess Kevin's busy today--either that or he's not condescending to speak to this lowly Mormon-- LOL. But, interesting scripture, Izzy. You chose the very passage I was wondering about, but couldn't find. It seems to be saying Judas was pre-determined to be the son of perdition. Do you believe in pre-determinism? This seems to be similar to the idea that only pre-selected individuals will go to heaven, and all others need not even apply, does it not? In a message dated 7/20/2005 9:28:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=50chapter=17verse=12version= 49context=verse John 17:12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. _ Hi Kevin, Why do you think the Lord chose Judas to be an apostle in the first place? Do you think he knew he would betray him? BlainerB -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Lance you need to spend some time meditating on Psalm 1 for your own sake if nothing else. From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]Do you truly not see as God sees on this issue, David? Might you be wrong? From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD wrote: Judy's opinion is clearly NOT just an opinion in her view - rather one of those "infallible" thingy's. The fact tht DM is clearly correcting her reveals that he, too, speaks ex-cathedra Wrong, John. Neither one of us is speaking infallibly or ex-cathedra on this issue. We are seeking to understand one another and share our knowledge with one another. Do you have a problem with that? I see nothing inappropriate with our discussion, nor do I see how it proves that the Spirit does not reveal truth to both of us. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Klaus Nomi, the one hit wonder agrees with David Judy
Hmmm - vain and futile imaginings - some ppl judge themselves unworthyFrom: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]I guess God will just have to sort it out on judgement day. --- Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but not with Lance, Bill, John and Gary (put your hand up, Gary just to show us that you're still here). David July claim not only to know themselves but, also us. They further claim that we don't/can't know them (even some beliefs/character traits they don't perceive concerning themselves) through TT. This simply demonstrates that they, in reality, don't know themselves. __
RE: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
Bill, I think the error here is in thinking that being born again must include a powerful emotional experience. If that is the criteria by which your pastor judges it is not a biblical model. I believe in simply having the person pray a prayer of repentance for sin, and invite Jesus to be their Lord and Savior, and asking the Holy Spirit to fill and guide them. It is a simple, unemotional event. It is based on faith, not on emotion. If emotions follow, that is wonderful, but certainly not necessary. I would have prayed such a prayer with your friend so that he would know for sure that he had done the right thing. His doubts would disappear, and God would honor his sweet hearts intent. izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 11:38 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 I am glad, David, that you are not immediately jumping to conclusions, either about this man -- his faith, obedience, etc. -- or as to how we may have counseled him through this crisis of faith. Thank you. It demonstrates spiritual maturing on your part. This was a man who had confessed many times that Jesus is Lord and had demonstrated as well as any of us are able to tell that he believed in his heart that God had raised Jesus from the dead. The problem was not his soul condition, it was with his theological conditioning. Our pastor had been drilling us for weeks with the same old you must be born again stuff, which was more of the same old thing which he had been hearing and teaching and living out his whole life. The problem was our pasture had grounded this teaching not in Jesus Christ but in our existential encounter. If we had not had a powerful conversion experience, then we had good reason to question our salvation. Well, here was a man who, because of his Christian experience, having been raised by godly parents in the church and believed the truth of Jesus Christ his entire life, had never had one of those experiences where you're supposed to feel the ground shake. The truth was, he had never not believed. As a good friend of mine says, if he would have repented he would have had to stop believing. He had always believed from as far back as he could remember. He had just been deceived into thinking that his salvation was in jeopardy because he had not had a powerful conversion experience. Of course, our pasture was convinced he was going to bring this poor old man to the Lord. And so he pounded him and drilled him and only made things worse -- but, thankfully, I was able to visit with him and ground his belief in Jesus Christ and bring him to a faithful assurance of his salvation in Jesus Christ, his Savior. But what a travesty to have done this to that man. You surely do not have to agree with me concerning born again and when that takes place, to understand the dilemma that bad theology had placed us -- him especially -- in. To jump to conclusions and immediately start seeing red flags going up, is only to confirm your own lack of awareness and biblical sensitivity here. Thank you for not doing that. Bill - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14 Judy wrote: How terribly sad - did somebody counsel and pray with this man who was obviously under conviction of the Spirit? ... A born again person who is right with God knows they are born again and right with God. If they don't know this it is a huge red flag - and this man was crying out for help. For what it's worth, I had kind of the same reaction to reading this. I hear of long term Christian men growing up in the church but never having had experienced being born again. I read a pastor's testimony once who had pastored a very large traditional church. He suddenly experienced the new birth, and did not know what to do. He told his congregation from the pulpit that he had been a Christian all his life, earned a doctorate in theology, pastored for many years, but he had never been born again. He gave his testimony. It completely split the church. Many could not fathom how such a scholar of the Bible, such a good man, could not have been born again. Many actually believed that he had lost his mind and gone insane. About half the church stayed with him, but the other half just could not understand. I don't know this man that Bill mentioned. Bill did. That means Bill has a better foundation from which to speak on this issue, but it does seem to me that the Lord was dealing with him. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you
Re: [TruthTalk] Fw: greetings from ky: long version
A liberalism! --- Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A perspectivalism!! - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 09:40 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: greetings from ky: long version Ahh, isn't America just wonderful? :-) iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 3:50 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] Fw: greetings from ky: long version - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: July 20, 2005 21:10 Subject: greetings from ky: long version We are in the heart of the kind of country where there is a flag on every house or lawn and a bumper sticker on two out of three vehicles that reads We support our troops. At the tourist bureau in Ohio there was a sign on the door: It is illegal to carry any firearm, deadly weapon or ordnance on these premises. Leave your cannons at home, folks. Now we're in Kentucky, in the hills; the signs at fast food restaurants are all 100 feet high so they can be seen in this very humpy countryside. We are staying in a small but clean and modern motel near the I65, on a narrow, winding rural road, flanked by Aunt Bee's Restaurant and overlooking a large, green, lovely, unkempt, tussocky meadow. We got off the highway too early and in the space of about five miles must have passed no less than 16 or 17 churches on the one country road--Friendship Baptist, First Baptist, Baptist Missionary, New Life Fellowship, New Horizons Fellowship, Church of God of Prophecy, Gospel Assembly, you name it, literally one every quarter mile or so. (There is also a thing about the Ten Commandments. We have seen them writ large on a billboard and on the window of a storefront church in a small town. Repent Now signs also appear here and there.) When we reached the road we wanted, we went the wrong direction first and drove by a farm gate with two boar's heads on it. Real ones. Dorothy, we're not in Ontario anymore. The road is very narrow and winding but paved--what you just don't find in our countryside where all the roads that lead anywhere are wide and follow straight along the surveyors' lines, and only major ones are paved. It feels weird. On the other side of the highway from the motel and down a short distance is the sad little town of Horse Cave--we're in the Mammoth Cave region--in which pretty little wooden houses sit cheek by jowl with tumbledown ramshackle ones, and by that I mean houses whose shadowy porches still have people sitting in swings but which would have been condemned long ago in Ontario, sections of their roofs collapsed or missing, windows broken, doors sagging on their hinges, the wood showing hardly any paint anymore. It's incredible there are still people living in them. Next to the disused railway tracks stands the wreck of what must have been an old station hotel when the town was booming. It is a melancholy sight. A bit further down the highway is a village hyperbolically dubbed Cave City, in which half of the establishments are defunct. But in amongst these sites are a fair number of large elegant new houses set far back from the road. So today we visited the Mammoth Caves, the world's longest cave system, 365 miles of passageway explored so far. We were under 250 feet of limestone. Very impressive. We decided against the six-hour tour consisting mostly of crawling through tight spaces, taking instead the two-hour tour which only requires you to turn sideways a few times or duck now and then to fit through a small passage. At some points on the path (it had railings) you could look up or down a good 80 feet or so into these vertical shafts left by water. We kept imagining we were in Moria and heard orcs and cave trolls. Fool of a Took! You...shall...not... pass! Fly, you fools! Fly! Apparently people have played violins or trumpets in these caves, or have sung down there, and the effect is supposed to be magnificent. I can only imagine. One of the nicest things about the caves was the temperature. It is killingly hot here--all the cows in the fields are standing in ponds, like water buffaloes in Asia--but in the caves it was a pleasant 18C or thereabouts, and quite dry. When we came out again it felt like we had suddenly entered a tropical rainforest; I could just feel the H2O going into my lungs with every breath. I think a pair of gills
[TruthTalk] **Moderator comment** I need help watching.
Normally, I try to read every TT post, but when TT'rs post as furiously as you have been for the last day or so, my real job (the one for which I get paid) and other obligations like parenting, husbanding, get in the way of my moderating. So, to help me out, if you recognize an ad-hominem (even if not directed at you personally) or other post that you think I should see, that I may not have gotten to (and may not even get to if the posts become too many for me to catch up!) please feel free to send it to me in an email marked **private**. Thanks, Perry the Moderator -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Kevin - Have you ever wondered why?????????
Pretty much nobody ever responds to you?
Re: [TruthTalk] Kevin - Have you ever wondered why?????????
I don't think he writes with a response in mindand from the way he describes his life he wouldn't have a lot of time to spend answering them anyway Do you think that this bothers him Lance? On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 11:25:43 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Pretty much nobody ever responds to you?
Re: [TruthTalk] Kevin - Have you ever wondered why?????????
They have no answers, just questions Here is a TRUTH for you: Oil Water do not mix --- Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pretty much nobody ever responds to you? Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Kevin - Have you ever wondered why?????????
So what is your point? I am VALIDated by you? --- Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pretty much nobody ever responds to you? -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Hey Guys! What say we go preach the gospel to the lost?
What a great idea! Yikes! Who's gospel are we going to preach? Wacha mean 'who's gospel?Well ya got yer DM gospel with it's Weslyan Holiness leanings and an accompanying legalistic/fundamentalist bent; yer Jt gospel with a kind of Jesus of her own imagining...Ya, I see watcha mean. Oh well, let's watch a movie instead. At least ya know what you're going to get.
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Napoleon wasnt all bad; he did arrest the Pope. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:20 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Napoleon Bonaparte may not have been a great theologian, but I like the way he stated it. I know men, and Jesus Christ was no mere man. === Judy Taylor wrote: On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:44:39 -0400 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF you are, in reality, mistaken concerning something so central as THE NATURE OF JESUS' HUMANITY (or David is) would that lead one to conclude that one of you is walking in the darkness (self confessed darkness, too) jt: Tell me Lance why the nature of Jesus' humanity is so central? If it is so central why did Paul waste so much of the Lord's time preaching the centrality of the cross rather than the centrality of Jesus' humanity? Where Judy, is the Spirit Who leads YOU (or David) into all truth on a matter so central to the Gospel? jt: Please tell me why Jesus humanity is so central for you? I accept that He took upon himself the likeness of man but we must face the fact that he was ALWAYS holy and without spot and we are not. Have you ever considered this Lance? I mean really thought about it. (I may just lurk for the outcome of this one) Will you confess, repent and enlighten all of those (family and friends) you've lead astray? When God or someone with more than just an opinion shows me in His Word how and where I have been leading ppl astray. From: Judy Taylor How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The difference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning. You don't seem to think that is possible. By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as giving you an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instruct us on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Lance, what you fail to apprehend is that if DM and JT are truly seeking Truth (which they are), then eventually they will reach agreement. The nice thing is that they are not disagreeing on anything of essential-to-being-saved issues. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:38 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter' At last we've been presented with the opportunity to demonstrate this 'He will lead you into all truth' thingy is misunderstood by those who have most often cited it (Judy, David). Both are faithful servants of the Lord, both have 'studied to show themselves approved', both are 'berean' in their approachHOWEVER ONE OF THEM IS GOING TO WEASEL OUT IN THE END SANS A SATISFACTORY CONCLUSION! One is more committed to belief than reality.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
He also reaked havoc on the French! That's a good thing isn't it? - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 22, 2005 12:04 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Napoleon wasnt all bad; he did arrest the Pope. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:20 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Napoleon Bonaparte may not have been a great theologian, but I like the way he stated it. "I know men, and Jesus Christ was no mere man."===Judy Taylor wrote: On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:44:39 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IFF you are, in reality, mistaken concerning something so central as THE NATURE OF JESUS' HUMANITY (or David is) would that lead one to conclude that one of you is walking in the darkness (self confessed darkness, too) jt: Tell me Lance why the nature of Jesus' humanity is so central? If it is so central why did Paul waste so much of the Lord's time preaching the "centrality of the cross" rather than the centrality of Jesus' humanity? Where Judy, is the Spirit Who leads YOU (or David) into all truth on a matter so central to the Gospel? jt: Please tell me why Jesus humanity is so central for you? I accept that He took upon himself the "likeness" of man but we must face the fact that he was ALWAYS holy and without spot and we are not. Have you ever considered this Lance? I mean really thought about it. (I may just lurk for the outcome of this one) Will you confess, repent and enlighten all of those (family and friends) you've lead astray? When God or someone with more than just an opinion shows me in His Word how and where I have been leading ppl astray. From: Judy Taylor How does one walking in self confessed confusion, darkness and death represent light and peace? Impossible. On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 06:00:14 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERY BELIEVER IS A REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD! Some do well while some. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 14:23 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14Lance wrote: ... once you've cited it, e-sword or not, you are giving us an interpretation (read MEANING). I esteem Scripture as highly as y'all; I just happen to think that you often don't cite is with it's correct meaning. The difference between us is that we seek to understand God's meaning. You don't seem to think that is possible. By the way, citing a passage is not necessarily the same thing as giving you an interpretation. Also, if you differ on what the meaning is, and you believe that you have the correct meaning, do like Jesus did and instruct us on its proper meaning. If you misrepresent God on it, I'm sure you will hear from the rest of us about it. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
JD and Lance are really enjoying heckling, arent they? Is that a fruit of the Spiritheckling? izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 6:42 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 For those of us who are onlookers - how do we decide, here? Judy's opinion is clearly NOT just an opinionin her view - rather one of those infallible thingy's. The fact tht DM is clearly correcting her reveals that he, too, speaks ex-cathedra Do we not see what this false teaching brings us to? And what is that?Only I amright by the giftedness of the Indwelling. An impossible doctrine, at best. The veryheight of arrogance at worse. JD -Original Message- From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.com To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:59:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 I am a whole lot more concerned with the Risen Christ Lance - I don't need to have a weak in the flesh Christ or an eternal son Christ. He did defeat principalities, powers, and wicked spirits and he made a show of them openly. He has handed us the victory so now it is up to us to walk in it. Jesus overcame in the wilderness by using the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God. Now Lance, if I were going to take what you write seriously I would have to go to the Lord and tell Him that the Comforter He sent me to lead me into all truth is not doing His job and helping me because after 25+ years I am still not able to apprehend that for which I am apprehended and so therefore my Sword is useless. Lance said so. jt On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 07:39:58 -0400 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed Judy, one can take that to the bank. However, often your understanding of these selfsame Scriptures are not 'bankable'. I'm watching the conversation between you and David. This then is proof positive. You would agree, would you not that ONE OF YOU IS MISAPPREHENDING THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE REGARDING THE HUMANITY OF CHRIST?. From: Judy Taylor Nailing jello is much more like trying to pin down men with deceitful hearts who change like the wind. Whereas the Word of God is the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. You can say It is written and as the saying goes take it to the Bank From: Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sorry David but this is a meaningless statement in this context. There is not a single participant who'd not subscribe to what you've said hereunder. (opinion-low, Bible-high) Do you know the _expression_ 'its like attempting to nail jello'? I will have departed TT actually 'knowing' you to have been wrong as to your understanding of Scripture and its employment in teaching and life.(NOT broadly and, on every issue) This being the case one's confidence in other matters is genuinely subject to serious questioning. From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: July 21, 2005 12:10 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Lance wrote: Who, pray tell David, occupies the position you've described. Do you know such a person and, will you introduce her/him to us? Who? Me, Judy, Terry, Izzy, Kevin, etc. We all take the position that our opinion means little. What is important is what the Bible says. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you hav e a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
