Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees/'baptIZed'
so, how didsuch a baptism becomean 'administrative sacrament'? gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 22:48:02 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Acts 22:16'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'
RE: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees/'baptIZed'
g, have you ever been baptized? If you dont want to reveal the answer to this question, please just say so. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 10:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees/'baptIZed' what's a sacrament? how does 'baptized' fall into that category? On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:48:21 -0600 ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: YesI assume you have heard of the word? Have you been? Yes or No__ Izzy baptized Baptize \Bap*tize\, v. t. [imp. p. p. Baptized; p. pr. vb. n. Baptizing.] [F. baptiser, L. baptizare, fr.Gr. ?. See Baptism.] 1. To administer the sacrament of baptism to. 2. To christen ( because a name is given to infants at their baptism); to give a name to; to name. 3. To sanctify; to consecrate. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 6:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees 'baptized'? On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:59:56 -0600 ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: g, I am still waiting to hearwere you ever baptized? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 3:45 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees Does anybody here (on TT)believe thatthe Trees lit bya Bushare 'pagan'? If no/t, wouldyou prefer to concludethatthe Bush is 'pagan'? gary ottoson :: http://aa1ltd.blogspot.com (--fyi, new poetry posted:) On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:08:22 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so,people aren't 'pagan' (or 'wrong'), it's the tree/s..no wonder some people'd rather climb a flag pole..would you consider the Trees 'pagan' that the Bushs lit? On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:34:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 12/9/2003 6:29:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 'pagan' = 'wrong'? no but if they think a tree is pagan and it bothers them then don't fool with it! Laura gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees/'baptIZed'
you're pretty smart, i guess On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:05:42 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I suspected that you would be cagey about answering this question, g. That speaks for itself. Izzy -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 12:21 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees/'baptIZed' 1. To administer the sacrament of baptism to[='baptized']. Whatdoesit mean (to you), Izzy? -- On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:10:27 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: g, have you ever been baptized?.. -Original Message-From: TruthTalk.. On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] || what's a sacrament? how does 'baptized' fall into that category?|| gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com
RE: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees/'baptIZed'
Acts 22:16'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.' -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 5:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees/'baptIZed' you're pretty smart, i guess On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 13:05:42 -0600 ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I suspected that you would be cagey about answering this question, g. That speaks for itself. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 12:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees/'baptIZed' 1. To administer the sacrament of baptism to[='baptized']. Whatdoesit mean (to you), Izzy? -- On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 07:10:27 -0600 ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: g, have you ever been baptized?.. -Original Message- From: TruthTalk.. On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] || what's a sacrament? how does 'baptized' fall into that category? || gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
Does anybody here (on TT)believe thatthe Trees lit bya Bushare 'pagan'? If no/t, wouldyou prefer to concludethatthe Bush is 'pagan'? gary ottoson :: http://aa1ltd.blogspot.com (--fyi, new poetry posted:) On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:08:22 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so,people aren't 'pagan' (or 'wrong'), it's the tree/s..no wonder some people'd rather climb a flag pole..would you consider the Trees 'pagan' that the Bushs lit? On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:34:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 12/9/2003 6:29:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 'pagan' = 'wrong'? no but if they think a tree is pagan and it bothers them then don't fool with it! Laura gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com
RE: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
g, I am still waiting to hearwere you ever baptized? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 3:45 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees Does anybody here (on TT)believe thatthe Trees lit bya Bushare 'pagan'? If no/t, wouldyou prefer to concludethatthe Bush is 'pagan'? gary ottoson :: http://aa1ltd.blogspot.com (--fyi, new poetry posted:) On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:08:22 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so,people aren't 'pagan' (or 'wrong'), it's the tree/s..no wonder some people'd rather climb a flag pole..would you consider the Trees 'pagan' that the Bushs lit? On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:34:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 12/9/2003 6:29:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 'pagan' = 'wrong'? no but if they think a tree is pagan and it bothers them then don't fool with it! Laura gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
'baptized'? On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:59:56 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: g, I am still waiting to hearwere you ever baptized? Izzy -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 3:45 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees Does anybody here (on TT)believe thatthe Trees lit bya Bushare 'pagan'? If no/t, wouldyou prefer to concludethatthe Bush is 'pagan'? gary ottoson :: http://aa1ltd.blogspot.com (--fyi, new poetry posted:) On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:08:22 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so,people aren't 'pagan' (or 'wrong'), it's the tree/s..no wonder some people'd rather climb a flag pole..would you consider the Trees 'pagan' that the Bushs lit? On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:34:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 12/9/2003 6:29:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 'pagan' = 'wrong'? no but if they think a tree is pagan and it bothers them then don't fool with it! Laura gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com
RE: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
YesI assume you have heard of the word? Have you been? Yes or No__ Izzy baptized Baptize \Bap*tize\, v. t. [imp. p. p. Baptized; p. pr. vb. n. Baptizing.] [F. baptiser, L. baptizare, fr.Gr. ?. See Baptism.] 1. To administer the sacrament of baptism to. 2. To christen ( because a name is given to infants at their baptism); to give a name to; to name. 3. To sanctify; to consecrate. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 6:41 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees 'baptized'? On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:59:56 -0600 ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: g, I am still waiting to hearwere you ever baptized? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 3:45 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees Does anybody here (on TT)believe thatthe Trees lit bya Bushare 'pagan'? If no/t, wouldyou prefer to concludethatthe Bush is 'pagan'? gary ottoson :: http://aa1ltd.blogspot.com (--fyi, new poetry posted:) On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:08:22 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so,people aren't 'pagan' (or 'wrong'), it's the tree/s..no wonder some people'd rather climb a flag pole..would you consider the Trees 'pagan' that the Bushs lit? On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:34:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 12/9/2003 6:29:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 'pagan' = 'wrong'? no but if they think a tree is pagan and it bothers them then don't fool with it! Laura gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees/'baptIZed'
what's a sacrament? how does 'baptized' fall into that category? On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:48:21 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: YesI assume you have heard of the word? Have you been? Yes or No__ Izzy baptized Baptize \Bap*tize"\, v. t. [imp. p. p. Baptized; p. pr. vb. n. Baptizing.] [F. baptiser, L. baptizare, fr.Gr. ?. See Baptism.] 1. To administer the sacrament of baptism to.2. To christen ( because a name is given to infants at their baptism); to give a name to; to name. 3. To sanctify; to consecrate. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 6:41 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees 'baptized'? On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 17:59:56 -0600 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: g, I am still waiting to hearwere you ever baptized? Izzy -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 3:45 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees Does anybody here (on TT)believe thatthe Trees lit bya Bushare 'pagan'? If no/t, wouldyou prefer to concludethatthe Bush is 'pagan'? gary ottoson :: http://aa1ltd.blogspot.com (--fyi, new poetry posted:) On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:08:22 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: so,people aren't 'pagan' (or 'wrong'), it's the tree/s..no wonder some people'd rather climb a flag pole..would you consider the Trees 'pagan' that the Bushs lit? On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:34:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 12/9/2003 6:29:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 'pagan' = 'wrong'? no but if they think a tree is pagan and it bothers them then don't fool with it! Laura gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
so,people aren't 'pagan' (or 'wrong'), it's the tree/s..no wonder some people'd rather climb a flag pole..would you consider the Trees 'pagan' that the Bushs lit? On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 00:34:10 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 12/9/2003 6:29:57 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 'pagan' = 'wrong'? no but if they think a tree is pagan and it bothers them then don't fool with it! Laura
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
'pagan' = 'wrong'? how so? On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 20:00:09 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you really think that what is |pagan| for some may not be |pagan| for others??? YES On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 08:15:01 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..if a person thinks it is |wrong| for them then so be it!
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 20:00:09 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you really think that what is pagan for some may not be pagan for others??? YES Hey Laura--if it ain't 'pagan' for Bush, for whom is the Tree 'pagan'?? (Hey Marlin--Where are you when the Tree's are bein' lit--if not dinin' withDean, then out Christmas shoppin'?What's the problem,Bush won't let youclimb the Tree??) gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
(ibetDean and DavidM havean idea who you could ask..tell him the person who throws the light switch onisAC-DC) On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 17:53:21 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..(Hey Marlin..What's the problem,Bush won't let youclimb[his] Tree??) gary ottoson :: http://poet235.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
In a message dated 12/8/2003 6:55:13 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hey Laura--if it ain't 'pagan' for Bush, for whom is the Tree 'pagan'?? (Hey Marlin--Where are you when the Tree's are bein' lit--if not dinin' withDean, then out Christmas shoppin'?What's the problem,Bush won't let youclimb the Tree??) It "ain't" pagan for me! I put 1800 lights on the tree today and my son thinks I need more!!!I do cover a lot of the lights with little clear stars. That's a Christian symbol right The girls played with the nativity sets while I worked. They act out the story. At one point the youngest brought over a couple of carolers from the end table and set them in the manger too.Her sister said that there had to be people there because the town was crowded and someone else had to come by. Interesting thought through the eyes of a 5 yr old.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
got it; for whom is it 'pagan', then? On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 23:42:30 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It "ain't" pagan for me!
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
(one more time:) On Sat, 6 Dec 2003 20:00:09 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you really think that what is pagan for some may not be pagan for others??? YES ... On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 23:42:30 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It "ain't" pagan for me! On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 21:53:53 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: got it; for whom is it 'pagan', then, [Laura]?
RE: [TruthTalk] Christmas trees
Marlin wrote: So, while I am not convinced that Christmas trees, or celebrating Christmas on Dec 25th for that matter, are pagan/sinful practices, I'm willing to hear Marlin out as often as he wants to discuss it. To me, it's one of those scripturally not-specifically-spelled-out situations. One problem is that Marlin, like many on this issue, does not discuss the matter. He simply states his position and lists all manner of links and the writings of others to make his case. The information he presents is full of holes, and when these problems were pointed out last year, there was little or no response. Now he presents the same old arguments all over again as if it has not already been discussed. He even presents the same Scriptures. If someone wants to discuss Christmas trees, that would be fine, but to just blast shotguns of information upon people who celebrate Christmas produces no good fruit as far as I can see. It seems to me that he just does not celebrate Christmas and has some kind of chip on his shoulder toward those who do. Maybe he is upset that Christmas is more celebrated in our culture than the Jewish moedim. This seems to be the same problem with those of us who give greater honor to observing the Lord's Day of resurrection rather than the Jewish Sabbath on Saturnday. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas trees
I did not write that, Izzy did. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 9:36 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christmas trees Marlin wrote: So, while I am not convinced that Christmas trees, or celebrating Christmas on Dec 25th for that matter, are pagan/sinful practices, I'm willing to hear Marlin out as often as he wants to discuss it. To me, it's one of those scripturally not-specifically-spelled-out situations. One problem is that Marlin, like many on this issue, does not discuss the matter. He simply states his position and lists all manner of links and the writings of others to make his case. The information he presents is full of holes, and when these problems were pointed out last year, there was little or no response. Now he presents the same old arguments all over again as if it has not already been discussed. He even presents the same Scriptures. If someone wants to discuss Christmas trees, that would be fine, but to just blast shotguns of information upon people who celebrate Christmas produces no good fruit as far as I can see. It seems to me that he just does not celebrate Christmas and has some kind of chip on his shoulder toward those who do. Maybe he is upset that Christmas is more celebrated in our culture than the Jewish moedim. This seems to be the same problem with those of us who give greater honor to observing the Lord's Day of resurrection rather than the Jewish Sabbath on Saturnday. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
Marlin wrote:
I did not write that, Izzy did.
Sorry about that Marlin. Yes, Izzy wrote what was quoted. I meant to
write Izzy but I was thinking ahead about you so I accidentally wrote
Marlin. I guess my typing hands went on auto pilot. Sorry about
that.
Also, I want to apologize for saying that you won't discuss this matter.
This post here certainly does, but in the past you have not discussed
it. I came across a little hard and I am sorry for that. I hope you
understand that I prefer discussion over throwing lots of reading
material at us.
David Miller wrote:
Say what? Are you trying to say that I am a false
Christ because I claim that Jesus is the Christ?
Marlin wrote:
I do not know whether Jesus was referring to you or not.
That is between you and Him. I merely believe what Jesus
said about those who would use his name after His departure
to heaven.
... MAT 24:5 {For many shall come in my name, saying,
I am Christ; and shall deceive many.}
But what seems odd in what you wrote was that they would say that Jesus
is the Christ, and then at the same time say that they are the Christ.
The false Christs, the ones coming bearing his name as their own, do not
say that Jesus is the Christ, do they?
Marlin wrote:
Why do the many wish to learn the way of the heathen
in order to remember Jesus? The scripture says
Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the
heathen. [JER 10:2]
Clearly this Word was spoken to Israel concerning the heathen nations
which cut down trees and built false gods out of them. This in no way
corresponds to Gentiles celebrating Christmas, the birth of Jesus
Christ. The similarity of trees being involved is no more compelling to
your argument than if they were building a house out of the trees and
you were against building houses out of trees.
Marlin wrote:
Jesus did leave a record of something to do in
remembrance of Him. It had nothing to do with
cutting down trees or celebrating his birth.
It instead focuses upon the tree upon which He
was hung, upon His death, and upon His resurrection,
His earnest desire to keep the Passover with His
disciples, and His ascension to the Father on the
wave sheaf day.
But you make it sound like one substitutes Christmas for the Eucharist.
That is not at all what happens. In fact, many churches celebrate the
Eucharist on Christmas Eve. They are not mutually exclusive
celebrations.
Hanukah was not a divinely commanded celebration. Do you think Hanukah
is wrong because it was not something which Jesus commanded? Isn't it
true that Jesus celebrated Hanukah? Doesn't that suggest that Jesus was
not against celebrating holidays that were not commanded through divine
revelation? If the people of their own accord, by their own hearts of
thanksgiving and praise to their Creator celebrate his birth and all
that he has given us, what is that to you? Why would you oppose it? Why
would God oppose it?
Marlin wrote:
I'll take the real remembrance over a counterfeit any day.
What do you mean, real remembrance over a counterfeit? What is the
real remembrance of his birth? Do you or anybody else know?
Marlin wrote:
If any man asks, I will tell them of the real
remembrance, and not a counterfeit.
Well then, tell us. What is the real remembrance of which you speak?
Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to
send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
David M.: But what seems odd in what you wrote was that they would say that Jesusis the Christ, and then at the same time say that they are the Christ.The false Christs, the ones coming bearing his name as their own, do notsay that Jesus is the Christ, do they? Marlin: Yes there are two categories here. 1) Those saying that He is the Christ. Note the definite article "the," and what follows, the manydeceive many by saying He is the Christ. 2) False Christs. Note the plural nature of the word Christs. a) Some teach fake Christs instead of the real Christ, counterfeits that look like the genuine b) Somepersonify saviors,and "shew great signs and wonders," and get followings after themselves instead of leading others to the true Christ. This type of the false Christscould refer back to the many who deceive the many by saying He is the Christ. David M.: Clearly this Word was spoken to Israel concerning the heathen nationswhich cut down trees and built false gods out of them. This in no waycorresponds to Gentiles celebrating Christmas, the birth of JesusChrist. The similarity of trees being involved is no more compelling toyour argument than if they were building a house out of the trees andyou were against building houses out of trees. Marlin: You presume to be a Gentile. In the early Church, those Gentiles who turned to God did notidentify with their past heritage or ways. They repented. Notice: Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 1CO 12:2 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye arethe temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell inthem, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shallbe my people. 2CO 6:16 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 1TH 1:9 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. 1JO 5:21 They turned from their idolatrous ways. David M.: But you make it sound like one substitutes Christmas for the Eucharist.That is not at all what happens. In fact, many churches celebrate theEucharist on Christmas Eve. They are not mutually exclusivecelebrations. I make no such sound. All those counterfiets are not the genuine truth. David M.: Hanukah was not a divinely commanded celebration. Marlin: True. It is not commanded. It is Jewish tradition. It is something foreign to me. David M.: What do you mean, "real remembrance" over a counterfeit? What is thereal remembrance of his birth? Do you or anybody else know?.Well then, tell us. What is the real remembrance of which you speak? Marlin: The real remembrance is in the holy days and Sabbaths that God commanded to be kept as memorials. These are the days that men reject infavor of fables. Notice: And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2TI 4:4 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. TIT 1:14 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2PE 1:16
RE: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
Laura, Can we hold off on the discussion of nativity sets until we have resolved this Christmas tree issue first? Do you really think that what is pagan for some may not be pagan for others??? Isnt this a classic example of humanistic moral relativism? The main question is not what someone feels is pagan. (God doesnt really care about our feelings when judgment day arrives, does He?) The question should be, I think, what does the Lord say is pagan? Can we discuss it from that angle? Ideas, anyone? How do we discover whether or not the Lord considers having a Christmas tree is an ungodly practice from the Lords point of view? Marlin has brought up this issue several times, and I think it would be a good thing to discuss as a group. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 11:50 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Fwd: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees Below is more from the site Marlin recommended. Note that it also mentions the fruitlike tree from the garden of Eden. Interesting that it is also mentioned in the article I posted. Personally I think that if someone feels a Christmas Tree is pagan and if it doesn't represent the symbols associated with Christmas then it is wrong for them to have a tree. I like the tree as a symbol and the lights and ornaments and other decorations. In no way am I intending to put down Marlin. My intent is only to point out that what is pagan for some may not be pagan for others. Question: Would any of you consider Nativity sets idols? Just curious. Laura During the Middle Ages, the Germans believed the evergreen trees were especially imbued with life since they remained green throughout all of winter. Greenery was prominent in pagan winter celebrations in honour of the tree spirit or spirit of fertility. The Romans trimmed the trees with trinkets and toys at that time of year. The Druids tied gilded apples to tree branches. For many, a tree decorated with orbs and fruit-like object symbolised the tree of life in the garden of Eden.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
The song goes: Oh Christmas tree, oh Christmas tree,how lovely are thy branches ... Men seem to want to idolize the creation or themselves. This is the basis for everyholiday that men havedevised in opposition to the holy days and sabbaths that God created. God gives those who love not the truth over to strong delusion. [2TH 2:11] The biblical evidence clearly shows that Jesus was born in the Fall, not in the dead of winter. Furthermore,the celebration of birthdays is actually foreign to the people of God. The scripture shows that there would be false Christs,even those who claim that Jesus is the Christ, and yet would deceive many. John writes that "...no lie is of the truth." 1JO 2:21The truth cannot come out of a lie. It ought to be asked: "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator...?" ROM 1:25 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death. PRO 14:12 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death. PRO 16:25 John admonishes us: "Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen." 1JO 5:21 For those who do not care for the truth: "Have yourself a Merry Little Christmas..." But the truth of God, both bitter and sweet, fulfills. With Jesus; the Truth, Way and Life; as our daily bread, our bread of life, we are promissed eternal life. That "evergreen tree" that you cut down for one holiday is going to die. Love, Marlin P.S.: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They [are] upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also [is it] in them to do good. Forasmuch as [there is] none like unto thee, O LORD; thou [art] great, and thy name [is] great in might. Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise [men] of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, [there is] none like unto thee. But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock [is] a doctrine of vanities. JER 10:2-8 - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 11:14 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees Laura, Can we hold off on the discussion of nativity sets until we have resolved this Christmas tree issue first? Do you really think that what is pagan for some may not be pagan for others??? Isnt this a classic example of humanistic moral relativism? The main question is not what someone feels is pagan. (God doesnt really care about our feelings when judgment day arrives, does He?) The question should be, I think, what does the Lord say is pagan? Can we discuss it from that angle? Ideas, anyone? How do we discover whether or not the Lord considers having a Christmas tree is an ungodly practice from the Lords point of view? Marlin has brought up this issue several times, and I think it would be a good thing to discuss as a group. Izzy -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 11:50 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Fwd: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees Below is more from the site Marlin recommended. Note that it also mentions the fruitlike tree from the garden of Eden. Interesting that it is also mentioned in the article I posted. Personally I think that if someone feels a Christmas Tree is pagan and if it doesn't represent the "symbols" associated with Christmas then it is wrong for them to have a tree. I like the tree as a symbol and the lights and ornaments and other decorations. In no way am I intending to put down Marlin. My intent is only to point out that what is pagan for some may not be pagan for others. Question: Would any of you consider Nativity sets idols? Just curious. Laura During the Middle Ages, the Germans believed the evergreen trees were especially imbued with life since they remained green throughout all of winter. Greenery was prominent in pagan winter celebrations in honour of the tree spirit or spirit of fertility.The Romans trimmed the trees with trinkets and toys at that time of year. The Druids tied gilded apples to tree branches. For many, a tree decorated with orbs and fruit-like object symbolised the tree of life in the garden of Eden.
RE: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
Marlin wrote: Men seem to want to idolize the creation or themselves. This is the basis for every holiday that men have devised in opposition to the holy days and sabbaths that God created. God gives those who love not the truth over to strong delusion. ... the celebration of birthdays is actually foreign to the people of God. Bah humbug. We have seen this spirit of Scrooge before. What good thing comes from it? Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. (Titus 1:15 KJV) I'm looking forward to celebrating Christ's birth this year. It is a wonderful time with the family. I have a 13 foot Christmas tree all decked out with lights and ornaments in my living room. We will exchange presents on Christmas day and tell about Jesus and his birth and spread the joy of Christ around. Praise the Lord. Many opportunities will arise to speak to others about Jesus Christ during this wonderful holiday. Songs of glory and praise will be made unto Jesus in public places and door to door. Glory be to God in the highest for this opportunity to preach Christ to the world. The atheists and secular humanists are trying to outlaw Christmas and many Messianics join them, but they will not prevail because Jesus is the Christ and mere men cannot stamp out the Spirit of Christ. Jesus is Lord of the Christians and the secularists. As long as believers in Christ have breath, we will declare his birth, his ministry, his death, his resurrection, and the judgment to come. Marlin wrote: The scripture shows that there would be false Christs, even those who claim that Jesus is the Christ, and yet would deceive many. You say that there would be false Christs who claim that Jesus is the Christ and yet would deceive many? Say what? Are you trying to say that I am a false Christ because I claim that Jesus is the Christ? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Christmas trees
Hi Izzy, You wrote:Do you really think that what is pagan for some may not be pagan for others??? Isn't this a classic example of humanistic moral relativism? The main question is not what someone feels is pagan. (God doesn't really care about our feelings when judgment day arrives, does He?) The question should be, I think, what does the Lord say is pagan? Can we discuss it from that angle? Ideas, anyone? How do we discover whether or not the Lord considers having a Christmas tree is an ungodly practice from the Lord's point of view? Marlin has brought up this issue several times, and I think it would be a good thing to discuss as a group. Could I suggest that consideration of scripture is always wise when seeking to deal with such questions? One example that comes to mind is I Cor.8. From that background, one could ask the question: Does God consider eating meat offered to idols as idolatry/pagan? Can eating meat offered to idols be sinful for one person and absolutely righteous for another? I believe that it can! Is it then possible that the same sort of principle could be applied to having a Christmas tree? If one Christian views it as sinful or is stumbled by it, is it sin for him to have one? But for another who knows that an evergreen tree is nothing but an evergreen tree, can it be perfectly righteous for him to have one and decorate it? Another example is the observance of days in Romans 14. Can it be sinful for one man to esteem one day above another? On the other hand, can it be sinful for another man to observe every day alike? In other words, if the Holy Spirit has convicted me that it would be sinful for me to do a certain thing (which scripture does not specificly say is sinful) can I rightfully teach others that it is sinful for everyone to do that thing which scripture does not specificly say is sinful? Do these passages shed any light on the issue of Christian's and their views of Christmas trees? Your brother in Christ, Bruce _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Christmas trees
Hi Bruce, It's so good to hear from you again! I think you have made a good point about Christmas trees. Rom 14 shows us clearly that, although some things are not innately sinful in themselves, if one does not have a clear conscience about it, you just should not do it. And we shouldn't go around judging each other in areas that are not absolutely clear in scripture. On the other hand, there are certainly some things that are totally forbidden by the Lord (such as idolatry, or joining in pagan rituals. Mardi Gras comes to mind as I type this.) In such instances we dare not think we should go by our feelings, but should sincerely search out God's word and obey it, no matter how we feel about it. I am sure that most of us who are Protestants have inherited certain polluted practices from the fallen Roman Catholic church that we came out of. (Imagine that concept!) So when someone as sincere as Marlin is so convicted about something, I like to at least take him seriously enough to investigate the issue myself, having an open mind and a willing-to-be-corrected spirit. I know this drives many folks a bit fruity, but I'm more willing to be convicted of being wrong than I am willing to be convicted of being callous to the Holy Spirit's correction. And you never know where that might come from. Sometimes it just comes directly from the Holy Spirit, and sometimes He uses an intermediary. So, while I am not convinced that Christmas trees, or celebrating Christmas on Dec 25th for that matter, are pagan/sinful practices, I'm willing to hear Marlin out as often as he wants to discuss it. To me, it's one of those scripturally not-specifically-spelled-out situations. Does that drive you nuts, or what? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Woodford Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 10:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Christmas trees Hi Izzy, You wrote:Do you really think that what is pagan for some may not be pagan for others??? Isn't this a classic example of humanistic moral relativism? The main question is not what someone feels is pagan. (God doesn't really care about our feelings when judgment day arrives, does He?) The question should be, I think, what does the Lord say is pagan? Can we discuss it from that angle? Ideas, anyone? How do we discover whether or not the Lord considers having a Christmas tree is an ungodly practice from the Lord's point of view? Marlin has brought up this issue several times, and I think it would be a good thing to discuss as a group. Could I suggest that consideration of scripture is always wise when seeking to deal with such questions? One example that comes to mind is I Cor.8. From that background, one could ask the question: Does God consider eating meat offered to idols as idolatry/pagan? Can eating meat offered to idols be sinful for one person and absolutely righteous for another? I believe that it can! Is it then possible that the same sort of principle could be applied to having a Christmas tree? If one Christian views it as sinful or is stumbled by it, is it sin for him to have one? But for another who knows that an evergreen tree is nothing but an evergreen tree, can it be perfectly righteous for him to have one and decorate it? Another example is the observance of days in Romans 14. Can it be sinful for one man to esteem one day above another? On the other hand, can it be sinful for another man to observe every day alike? In other words, if the Holy Spirit has convicted me that it would be sinful for me to do a certain thing (which scripture does not specificly say is sinful) can I rightfully teach others that it is sinful for everyone to do that thing which scripture does not specificly say is sinful? Do these passages shed any light on the issue of Christian's and their views of Christmas trees? Your brother in Christ, Bruce _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gregga/hebrew/xmastree.html The Pagan Origin of The Christmas Tree The concept of the Christmas Tree originated around 3000 B.C. in ancient Egypt with King Osiris and Queen Isis.After the untimely death of King Osiris, his wife, Isis, propogated the demonic doctrine of the survival of Osiris as a spirit. She claimed a full grown evergreen tree sprang overnight from a dead stump, symbolising the new life of the Osiris spirit from his death. On each anniversary of Osiris birth, which was the date we now know as December 25th, Isis would leave gifts around this tree. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:22 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees I remember last year we had a big thread about Christmas trees. I came across this while planning my calendar for Parents Day Out and thought it was interesting. Laura The tradition of decorating the Paradeisbaum, or Paradise trees, originated in Europe. Christians would celebrate the holiday on Christmas Eve by acting out important events in Scripture. One of the skits that was performed was the 'The Garden of Eden' scene. Since it was the wintertime in Europe it was not possible to find an apple tree with apples, so an evergreen tree would be substituted. The actors first hung apples on their "Paradise Trees", later adding other adornments such as dried fruits and nuts. The increase in popularity of the Paradeisbaum is attributed to Martin Luther. It is believed that he first added lighted candles to his Paradise Tree after walking home through the woods one winter evening. He was in the midst of composing a sermon and was awestruck by the brilliance of the millions of twinkling stars above the evergreens. So inspired by the beauty of God's creation, he cut down an evergreen and brought it home to his family, then wired lighted candles to the tree to recreate the starlit scene. Paradise trees eventually became known as 'Christ Trees', then Christmas Trees. It is believed that Christmas trees were brought to America by Germans that immigrated to Pennsylvania. The diary of Matthew Zahm of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, records the introduction of the Christmas tree being brought to the New World December 20, 1821.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
Yikes Marlin, I was just trying to give another perspective. We went the pagan route last year. Why not try another approach this year! LOL Laura
RE: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
Laura, I would like to hear you disprove what Marlin says rather than just laugh it off. If it is possible that this is true, then shouldnt we all look into the ramifications? Do you know it not to be true? Even if it is true, does that automatically mean that the Lord disproves of us having Christmas trees today? Is it possible that we could be doing something that seems like an innocuous tradition that is really offensive to the Lord? Is that not possible? This seems like a relevant issue worthy of discussion. If we have a brother who is disturbed enough about this to warn us, shouldnt we be kind enough to discuss this issue rather than just ridicule him? I know you have a kind heart, Laura. So what do you think? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 8:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees Yikes Marlin, I was just trying to give another perspective. We went the pagan route last year. Why not try another approach this year! LOL Laura
Fwd: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees
Below is more from the site Marlin recommended. Note that it also mentions the fruitlike tree from the garden of Eden. Interesting that it is also mentioned in the article I posted. Personally I think that if someone feels a Christmas Tree is pagan and if it doesn't represent the "symbols" associated with Christmas then it is wrong for them to have a tree. I like the tree as a symbol and the lights and ornaments and other decorations. In no way am I intending to put down Marlin. My intent is only to point out that what is pagan for some may not be pagan for others. Question: Would any of you consider Nativity sets idols? Just curious. Laura During the Middle Ages, the Germans believed the evergreen trees were especially imbued with life since they remained green throughout all of winter. Greenery was prominent in pagan winter celebrations in honour of the tree spirit or spirit of fertility.The Romans trimmed the trees with trinkets and toys at that time of year. The Druids tied gilded apples to tree branches. For many, a tree decorated with orbs and fruit-like object symbolised the tree of life in the garden of Eden. ---BeginMessage--- http://members.iinet.net.au/~gregga/hebrew/xmastree.html The Pagan Origin of The Christmas Tree The concept of the Christmas Tree originated around 3000 B.C. in ancient Egypt with King Osiris and Queen Isis.After the untimely death of King Osiris, his wife, Isis, propogated the demonic doctrine of the survival of Osiris as a spirit. She claimed a full grown evergreen tree sprang overnight from a dead stump, symbolising the new life of the Osiris spirit from his death. On each anniversary of Osiris birth, which was the date we now know as December 25th, Isis would leave gifts around this tree. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:22 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Christmas Trees I remember last year we had a big thread about Christmas trees. I came across this while planning my calendar for Parents Day Out and thought it was interesting. Laura The tradition of decorating the Paradeisbaum, or Paradise trees, originated in Europe. Christians would celebrate the holiday on Christmas Eve by acting out important events in Scripture. One of the skits that was performed was the 'The Garden of Eden' scene. Since it was the wintertime in Europe it was not possible to find an apple tree with apples, so an evergreen tree would be substituted. The actors first hung apples on their "Paradise Trees", later adding other adornments such as dried fruits and nuts. The increase in popularity of the Paradeisbaum is attributed to Martin Luther. It is believed that he first added lighted candles to his Paradise Tree after walking home through the woods one winter evening. He was in the midst of composing a sermon and was awestruck by the brilliance of the millions of twinkling stars above the evergreens. So inspired by the beauty of God's creation, he cut down an evergreen and brought it home to his family, then wired lighted candles to the tree to recreate the starlit scene. Paradise trees eventually became known as 'Christ Trees', then Christmas Trees. It is believed that Christmas trees were brought to America by Germans that immigrated to Pennsylvania. The diary of Matthew Zahm of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, records the introduction of the Christmas tree being brought to the New World December 20, 1821. ---End Message---
