Re: [U2] Social Networks for MV

[Rob Sobers]

> Not sure what GitHub would offer that isn't already there.

- Dicoverability
- The ability to collaborate on and fork codebases
- Easily view diffs, history, etc.
- Issue tracking

You know, the things most successful open source projects look for.

On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Wjhonson  wrote:

> Pick code however is posted to the pickwiki
> Not sure what GitHub would offer that isn't already there.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-
> From: Rob Sobers 
> To: U2 Users List 
> Sent: Sat, Mar 16, 2013 9:44 am
> Subject: Re: [U2] Social Networks for MV
>
>
> Good for you Tony!
>
> For the detractors: realize that this is the way of the world now.
>
> Take a look at the software development ecosystems that are thriving today:
> JavaScript, Ruby, Python, etc.  Their communities leverage social media to
> communicate, organize meetups, solve common problems, and share code.  It
> fuels their growth.
>
> I'm saddened by the lack of U2 posts on Stack Overflow:
> http://stackoverflow.com/tags/u2
>
> And the lack of open source on GitHub:
> https://github.com/search?q=unibasic&ref=commandbar
>
> The longer the U2 ecosystems remains shuttered behind closed doors, the
> faster it will get move towards its death.
>
> As far as social networks for individual businesses -- it's cool if you
> don't want to use them.  I'm happy to take all your leads. :-)
>
> -Rob
>
> On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:17 AM, John Thompson  >wrote:
>
> > I try to dabble in the social network stuff.  My issue is
> > energy/motivation.
> >
> > Whether we like it or not, social networks aren't going anywhere.
> > I would go so far as to say in about 10 years no one is going to check
> > their email anymore.
> > And if you want new folks talking about MV in an online setting, mailing
> > lists definitely aren't going to get you there.
> >
> > Just visit your local church, or some place where kids hangout and
> observe
> > them- and you will see.  Its a brave new world, whether we like it or
> not.
> >
> > Learn how to relate to the culture and pass on what you know- or the
> > knowledge will be lost.
> > Happens all the time in the history books.
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 8:39 AM, Brian Leach 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > All social networks are not the same. I am happy to be on LinkedIn
> which
> > > incidentally has good Rocket and Pick groups, but share the distrust of
> > > Facebook.
> > >
> > > Sent from my iPhone
> > >
> > > On 16 Mar 2013, at 10:31, "Symeon Breen"  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Every company I am involved in has a facebook/linkedin/twitter
> account
> > > and
> > > > we keep them updated regularly - it is essential in modern business
> > > > marketing to do this.
> > > >
> > > > -Original Message-
> > > > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> > > > [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony
> > Gravagno
> > > > Sent: 15 March 2013 22:12
> > > > To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> > > > Subject: [U2] Social Networks for MV
> > > >
> > > > I'm on a mini campaign to make more MV colleagues aware of the
> benefits
> > > of
> > > > using Twitter and other social media. Everyone is welcome to visit my
> > > blog
> > > > on the topic and to comment here or there.
> > > >
> > > > http://Nebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2013/03/socialmv1.html
> > > >
> > > > Tony Gravagno
> > > > Nebula Research and Development
> > > > TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com
> > > > Nebula R&D sells mv.NET and other Pick/MultiValue products
> > > > worldwide, and provides related development services
> > > > http://Nebula-RnD.com/blog
> > > > Visit http://PickWiki.com! Contribute!
> > > > http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno
> > > > http://groups.google.com/group/mvdbms
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > U2-Users mailing list
> > > > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> > > > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
> > > > -
> > > > No virus found in this message.
> > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > > Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5677 - Release Date:
> > 03/15/13
> > > >
> > > > 

Re: [U2] Social Networks for MV

[Rob Sobers]

Good for you Tony!

For the detractors: realize that this is the way of the world now.

Take a look at the software development ecosystems that are thriving today:
JavaScript, Ruby, Python, etc.  Their communities leverage social media to
communicate, organize meetups, solve common problems, and share code.  It
fuels their growth.

I'm saddened by the lack of U2 posts on Stack Overflow:
http://stackoverflow.com/tags/u2

And the lack of open source on GitHub:
https://github.com/search?q=unibasic&ref=commandbar

The longer the U2 ecosystems remains shuttered behind closed doors, the
faster it will get move towards its death.

As far as social networks for individual businesses -- it's cool if you
don't want to use them.  I'm happy to take all your leads. :-)

-Rob

On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 10:17 AM, John Thompson wrote:

> I try to dabble in the social network stuff.  My issue is
> energy/motivation.
>
> Whether we like it or not, social networks aren't going anywhere.
> I would go so far as to say in about 10 years no one is going to check
> their email anymore.
> And if you want new folks talking about MV in an online setting, mailing
> lists definitely aren't going to get you there.
>
> Just visit your local church, or some place where kids hangout and observe
> them- and you will see.  Its a brave new world, whether we like it or not.
>
> Learn how to relate to the culture and pass on what you know- or the
> knowledge will be lost.
> Happens all the time in the history books.
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 8:39 AM, Brian Leach 
> wrote:
>
> > All social networks are not the same. I am happy to be on LinkedIn which
> > incidentally has good Rocket and Pick groups, but share the distrust of
> > Facebook.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On 16 Mar 2013, at 10:31, "Symeon Breen"  wrote:
> >
> > > Every company I am involved in has a facebook/linkedin/twitter account
> > and
> > > we keep them updated regularly - it is essential in modern business
> > > marketing to do this.
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> > > [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony
> Gravagno
> > > Sent: 15 March 2013 22:12
> > > To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> > > Subject: [U2] Social Networks for MV
> > >
> > > I'm on a mini campaign to make more MV colleagues aware of the benefits
> > of
> > > using Twitter and other social media. Everyone is welcome to visit my
> > blog
> > > on the topic and to comment here or there.
> > >
> > > http://Nebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2013/03/socialmv1.html
> > >
> > > Tony Gravagno
> > > Nebula Research and Development
> > > TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com
> > > Nebula R&D sells mv.NET and other Pick/MultiValue products
> > > worldwide, and provides related development services
> > > http://Nebula-RnD.com/blog
> > > Visit http://PickWiki.com! Contribute!
> > > http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno
> > > http://groups.google.com/group/mvdbms
> > >
> > > ___
> > > U2-Users mailing list
> > > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> > > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
> > > -
> > > No virus found in this message.
> > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > > Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5677 - Release Date:
> 03/15/13
> > >
> > > ___
> > > U2-Users mailing list
> > > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> > > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
> > ___
> > U2-Users mailing list
> > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
> >
>
>
>
> --
> John Thompson
> ___
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>
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Re: [U2] Comparing numeric strings

[Rob Sobers]

Thanks all.  I should have mentioned that I already knew about the
alpha-concatenation hack. I was sort of looking for a cleaner approach.  It
looks like SCMP falls down on floating point numbers.  That should probably
be mentioned in the docs, but instead it just fails silently. ;-(

-Rob

On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Rex Gozar  wrote:

> In July I added to PickWiki:
>
>
> http://www.pickwiki.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?UniVerse_Tips_And_Tricks#Forcing_string_comparison_on_numbers
>
> rex
>
> On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Rob Sobers  wrote:
> > Say you have two strings that happen to be numeric:
> >
> > FOO = "401.0101"
> > BAR = "401.0101000"
> >
> > Since UniBasic is untyped, even though I've wrapped each value in quotes
> "",
> > they are treated as numbers.  As a result, FOO EQ BAR evaluates to @TRUE.
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>
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[U2] Comparing numeric strings

[Rob Sobers]

Say you have two strings that happen to be nuneric:

FOO = "401.0101"
BAR = "401.0101000"

Since UniBasic is untyped, even though I've wrapped each value in quotes "",
they are treated as numbers.  As a result, FOO EQ BAR evaluates to @TRUE.

In most dynamically typed languages, there's an intuitive way to coerce the
values at run-time (e.g, foo.to_s, foo.ToString, Str(foo)).  I can't seem to
figure out a good way to do this in UniBasic.  In the manual, there's a
function called SCMP that is supposed to be handy for comparing numeric
strings, but it doesn't appear to work in UniData 7.2.

# First try SCMP
IF SCMP(FOO, BAR) THEN
  CRT "Not Equal"
END ELSE
  CRT "Equal"
END

# Now try EQ
IF FOO EQ BAR THEN
  CRT "Equal"
END ELSE
  CRT "Not Equal"
END

Result:
Equal
Equal

Also, the "tip" in the manual seems to be untrue:

"Numbers specified in quotation marks are string data type. Numbers
specified without quotation marks are numeric data type. The data type in a
variable is determined by the data first loaded into it."

Quotation marks appear to have absolutely no bearing on data type.

-Rob
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Re: [U2] Why Pick U2?

[Rob Sobers]

he "company scale" of time U2 hasn't been with Rocket for that long.
> Take into account ramp up time for a new working environment, complete
> office move, rebranding of all products and documentation when determining
> how sluggish U2 is. Expect more developments to come out quicker. There are
> some exciting changes coming down the pipes that will address some of the
> issues people have raised in this thread.
>
> UniObjects (COM) is an ancient interface. Don't forgot that there is now
> EDA, a SOAP-based web-service provider and a RESTful web-service provider
> (in beta).
>
> Better resources: more is coming. U2DevZone is up, it is now open (no sign
> in required anymore) with articles, video tutorials and podcasts. You can
> take this as a solid indication that the folks here are committed to
> providing material that makes U2 a more attractive option.
>
> Yes, times are interesting in the database world right now. There has not
> been this much attention and diversity for as long as I can remember. I'd
> love to see you (and everyone else) at U2U next year, meet some of
> management & engineering and see what is happening in the U2/MV world and
> maybe even provide some insight into what keeps you interested in the MV
> world and what doesn't. Obviously there is something in there that interests
> your technical mind for you still to be posting on this list. :)
>
> Cheers,
> Dan
>
> PS: Thanks also to all those that sent direct replies to me. If I haven't
> got back to you yet, I will endeavor to do so next week.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:
> u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rob Sobers
> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 4:41 PM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2?
>
> Hey Dan,
>
> Great response! Thanks for chiming in.  Let me address some of your points.
>
> "Cherry-picking individual features from one database to compare them, then
> cherry-picking from completely different database when counter-points are
> raised is not exactly a technically sound (or fair) way to do comparisons."
>
> You're certainly right, but that's not I'm doing.  I believe the only
> direct feature comparison I made was to MongoDB, which falls into the same
> class of database as U2.
>
> Besides, the discussion isn't purely about technical capabilities (though
> they certainly matter and U2 has been sluggish with new feature development)
> as much as it is about the overall value proposition.
>
> I'm not trying to be a troll, or incite the folks that love U2, or call out
> Rocket.  As a long-time U2 user, I'm simply making an honest and blunt
> statement that I  would not pick U2 as my database on a new product, and I'm
> curious to hear if others can argue in favor of U2 given the rise of lower
> cost, popular alternatives in the same niche.
>
> I think it's extremely hard to argue in favor of U2 give its price tag and
> underdeveloped ecosystem.
>
> For *me personally*, when I'm contemplating which technology to use on a
> new project, some of the things that are very important are:
>
> 1.) Mainstream adoption.  If I have a wacky problem with U2, I basically 2
> places to go: Rocket support or this list.  That's it.  You can't overlook
> the beneifts of using mainstream technologies.
>
>
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=rocket+u2%2C+unidata%2C+mongodb&ctab=0&geo=all&date=ytd&sort=2
>
> Again, when I was working with U2 full-time, we were consistently finding
> core bugs in U2 that hampered business, and it would be months on end
> without any progress from IBM.
>
> (If you don't believe me, try using some of the SQL features in the latest
> build of UniData.)
>
> 2) Ecosystem and accessibility.  Are there APIs, language bindings, and
> libraries available, or am I limited?
>
> I brought this up on another thread -- what if I need to parse JSON in
> UniBasic, or I want to generate a PDF document?  There simply aren't a
> wealth of UniBasic libraries available like there are in Java, Ruby, .NET,
> etc.
>
> This can be partially addressed by making U2 more accessible from modern
> languages or at the very least, provide better guidance and resources to
> help the users create their own.  Right now all we have is UniObjects, which
> is kinda crappy.
>
> c) Cost. U2 is expensive for what you get.  That might have been justified
> in the 90s, and 2000s when theren't were viable MV alternatives.  But now
> there are alternatives.  Free ones.
>
> It's easy to say that "U2 has been around for a while, so it must be
> re

Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

[Rob Sobers]

"It's the least worst response to a bad situation - not having
business logic close to the database. It's more to test, develop, deploy and
change control. And to be successful it still needs to call stored
procedures at the back end.And to be successful it still needs to call
stored procedures at the back end."

Really?  I've worked on lots of successful products that didn't use stored
procedures at the back end.

Again, it doesn't matter where the code is *physically*.  What is this
"close to the database" catch phrase *really* mean anyway?  Are you talking
about speed?  I have to image you see some benefit, because IMHO you're
giving up a lot of flexibility by writing your business rules in stored
procedure languages like UniBasic and TSQL.  I'd also argue that having code
live with the database can make the application as a whole far less portable
as you scatter code around.  More moving parts is generally a bad thing.

Yes, you should tier your code and keep your business logic separate from
your presentation layer, but that doesn't mean it literally needs to be in a
stored procedure.  Look at the MVC pattern in Rails or ASP.NET MVC, for
instance.  In those frameworks, all of the business logic lives in model
classes in the main application, not the database.  It works really well --
if it didn't, people would break that mold and start putting code in sprocs.

-Rob

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Brian Leach  wrote:

> I've missed this discussion because I've been busy designing a website and
> app for a client.
>
> This being the real world, the site will eventually - of course - be
> delivered using SQL Server and C#, with the front end using AJAX calls to
> JSON services delivered through WCF. Which will no doubt take an age to
> develop, test, deploy and then reconfigure all over all again.
>
> So before getting to that stage, I've written a fully functioning
> prototype.
> Which is - of course - written in UniVerse and mvScript. Which means I've
> developed it all front to back in a few hours and it's robust and flexible
> enough that I can work through it sitting with the clients tomorrow and
> make
> changes in near real time as they come up with ideas.
>
> Which tells the story, in one, of what I do and don't like about U2.
>
>
> As to some of the other points:
>
> 1. Someone mentioned SQL Server and the GUI word again. Please ... SQL
> Server has no UI. If you're coding a UI for SQL server you use C#. If
> you're
> coding a UI for U2 you can use C#. If you're coding business rules for SQL
> Server you can use SQL Manager. If you're coding business rules for U2 you
> can use BDT or mvDeveloper. It's a red herring.
>
> 2. The other thread has been talking about locking. If there's one reason
> to
> use U2 over all else, it's pessimistic locking. The SQL world is full of
> script kiddies and wizard users who *think* they know SQL and don't have
> the
> first idea about concurrency, locking and merging.
>
> 3. Yes, we now have CLR in SQL server, but how many SQL developers are
> actually using it? The initial push to add it was a horrible cludge and put
> off many of those who might have experimented, and for the rest of the
> community it's too alien. I think we'll see TSQL as the main language for
> back end work for a long, long time - and that doesn't begin to measure up
> to UniBasic. (but read on before you jump on this...)
>
> 4. Having middle tier logic may be the norm but that does not mean it a
> good
> idea. It's the least worst response to a bad situation - not having
> business
> logic close to the database. It's more to test, develop, deploy and change
> control. And to be successful it still needs to call stored procedures at
> the back end.
>
> 5. But if you really want a middle tier, you can still add one and use C#
> and it's 'proper libraries' with U2. If you really, really want.
>
> 6. And either way, not having to stare at query optimizer output is a very
> good reason to like U2.
>
> BUT
>
> That doesn't mean U2 can't be improved by taking on some of the better
> features of the outside world.
>
> The indexing is still very primitive, the SQL support is weak, and it would
> be great to have some other languages built into the database runtime. Even
> java -  - would be better than nothing, and would provide those
> 'missing' OO and library features that people think they want.
>
> Add OpenQM's version of objects into Basic while you're at it and make the
> Basic on the two products more similar. It's just a pain having to use two
> sets of syntax: Rocket could easily create a superset on both.
>
> Nowadays you can at least integrate the query and Basic language by using
> SQLExecute() function calls to @HSTMT - something that was always missing
> from the original Pick model. But it's not obvious and doesn't work from
> phantoms.
>
> For the client side, we need javascript bindings made easy - especially to
> JSON - as that is the most important language for new developers

Re: [U2] JSON

[Rob Sobers]

I can't see a reason for the nested arrays either.  This validates just
fine:

[
{
"IdCode": "178",
"CusName": "U2Logic",
"ContactName": [
"David Aitken",
"Doug Averch",
"Ed Karlo"
]
}
]

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:28 PM, Kevin King  wrote:

> Ah drat, I knew I should have validated before posting.  That's what
> confidence'll get ya.. :)
>
> The first one was valid.  The second is missing a } at the end, and the
> third one should have ended in }}} instead of ]}.
>
> Regarding this:
>
> > [{"IdCode":"178","CusName":"U2Logic","ContactName":[["David
> Aitken"],["Doug
> > Averch"],["Ed Karlo"]]}]
> >
>
> I'm wondering why the names are in nested arrays instead of a single array
> with three names?
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Re: [U2] Rocks

[Rob Sobers]

In fairness, I don't think anyone is trolling.  I think it's healthy to
question the technical merits of the platforms you use and compare them to
alternatives.

A community that shouts "go away trolls! we like it here!" whenever someone
asks an uneasy question is probably one I don't belong in.

I think we are asking fair, on-topic questions about the technology, its
future, and its usefulness compared to other systems that have entered the
market.  No one is belittling anyone else for using U2 or being a UniBasic
developer.  I've used the technology for many years.  I'm just not going to
be content with a platform that stagnates.  When I'm unhappy, I speak up.
:-)

-Rob

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Jeff Schasny  wrote:

> You were given many reasons and dismissed them all with nothing more than a
> shrug.
>
> Apparently, now you believe you've made your point. Good for you.
>
> Amazing as it may sound, on a list full of people who are U2 developers
> you're going to find people who use U2 because we're experts in it, and to
> us it's as easy as pie to develop in this environment. We use it with
> various front end tools to make it pretty like any other database
> environment. We also use a variety of other open source and proprietary
> tools when the situation calls for it.
>
> And now I believe I'll stop feeding the troll and go have some more coffee.
>
>
> Holt, Jake wrote:
>
>> U2 has an easy learning curve ..? What? MV is a completely foreign
>> concept to most people and I'd wager a large number of DBAs.  There is
>> no conceivable way that installing U2, setting up a database, developing
>> an application and presenting it using a technology that's not a
>> dinosaur can be considering easy in comparison to the majority of other
>> databases out there.
>> If you're happy with the current MV market then that's fine, but my
>> original intention in asking the question was to find out if there was
>> really any conceivable reason that NEW users would adopt U2 over another
>> option.  If people are happy to just watch it bleed and die that's fine,
>> but if you want the market to grow you're going to have to address some
>> of the issues already brought up.  Issues that many other databases
>> addressed a decade ago.
>>
>> Like I said initially, I like U2, I just have no conceivable reason to
>> use it outside our ERP system when I have a number of other options
>> available that are, frankly, better.
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: 
>> u2-users-bounces@listserver.**u2ug.org
>> [mailto:u2-users-bounces@**listserver.u2ug.org]
>> On Behalf Of Bill Brutzman
>> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 9:30 AM
>> To: U2 Users List
>> Subject: [U2] Rocks
>>
>> Rob:
>>
>> This is the U2 list.  The developers on this list... like, live, and
>> breathe U2.  U2 is a legacy database for in which, over decades,
>> companies have invested in mega-mountains of code.  I find it galling
>> when newbies so often expect companies to instantly bail on their
>> colossal stake.
>>
>> Is U2 ever going to be cloud-based?  Maybe... maybe not.  Although U2 is
>> the UniVersal choice... for fresh new projects, designers may have good
>> reasons to opt for a rival technologies.  For add-on projects, U2 has an
>> easy learning curve.
>>
>> I hope that this explanation sheds some new light.
>>
>> --Bill
>>
>> -Original Message-
>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 9:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?
>>
>> I have to heartily disagree that U2 has a sophisticated business rules
>> engine.  ...
>>
>> -Rob
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>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> --**--**
> 
> Jeff Schasny - Denver, Co, USA
> jschasny at gmail dot com
> --**--**
> 
>
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Re: [U2] Why Pick U2?

[Rob Sobers]

Hey Dan,

Great response! Thanks for chiming in.  Let me address some of your points.

"Cherry-picking individual features from one database to compare them, then
cherry-picking from completely different database when counter-points are
raised is not exactly a technically sound (or fair) way to do comparisons."

You're certainly right, but that's not I'm doing.  I believe the only direct
feature comparison I made was to MongoDB, which falls into the same class of
database as U2.

Besides, the discussion isn't purely about technical capabilities (though
they certainly matter and U2 has been sluggish with new feature development)
as much as it is about the overall value proposition.

I'm not trying to be a troll, or incite the folks that love U2, or call out
Rocket.  As a long-time U2 user, I'm simply making an honest and blunt
statement that I  would not pick U2 as my database on a new product, and I'm
curious to hear if others can argue in favor of U2 given the rise of lower
cost, popular alternatives in the same niche.

I think it's extremely hard to argue in favor of U2 give its price tag and
underdeveloped ecosystem.

For *me personally*, when I'm contemplating which technology to use on a new
project, some of the things that are very important are:

1.) Mainstream adoption.  If I have a wacky problem with U2, I basically 2
places to go: Rocket support or this list.  That's it.  You can't overlook
the beneifts of using mainstream technologies.

http://www.google.com/trends?q=rocket+u2%2C+unidata%2C+mongodb&ctab=0&geo=all&date=ytd&sort=2

Again, when I was working with U2 full-time, we were consistently finding
core bugs in U2 that hampered business, and it would be months on end
without any progress from IBM.

(If you don't believe me, try using some of the SQL features in the latest
build of UniData.)

2) Ecosystem and accessibility.  Are there APIs, language bindings, and
libraries available, or am I limited?

I brought this up on another thread -- what if I need to parse JSON in
UniBasic, or I want to generate a PDF document?  There simply aren't a
wealth of UniBasic libraries available like there are in Java, Ruby, .NET,
etc.

This can be partially addressed by making U2 more accessible from modern
languages or at the very least, provide better guidance and resources to
help the users create their own.  Right now all we have is UniObjects, which
is kinda crappy.

c) Cost. U2 is expensive for what you get.  That might have been justified
in the 90s, and 2000s when theren't were viable MV alternatives.  But now
there are alternatives.  Free ones.

It's easy to say that "U2 has been around for a while, so it must be
reliable and enterprise grade."  But I can't tell you how many times I've
had to take my UniData system down and run "guide" because of database-level
corruption.  Anecdotal yes, but so are your claims against MongoDB.  I
believe Foursquare still uses it, and I'm going to venture a wild guess that
their load is far greater than any single U2 customer's.

I also don't buy the case for writing your business logic in what is
basically a hamstrung stored procedure language.  This isn't necessary to
get the benefits you're describing.  As long as you properly tier your code
so that your business logic is separate from your presentation layer, it
doesn't matter where the code lives physically.

SQL access in U2 has been a pain point for me in the past, but maybe I was
doing it wrong or things have changed lately.

The idea of using U2 as in in-memory cache is an interesting idea.  I wonder
if anyone has done that in production.

Anyway, thanks for the excellent and thorough response, Dan.  You make some
great points and you're an extremely bright guy and Rocket is very smart for
bringing you aboard.  I look forward to seeing what's coming, but as it is
right now, U2 just isn't an option for me.  You've got your work cut out for
you, though, as the competition is moving fast. :-)

Cheers,

-Rob

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Daniel McGrath <
dmcgr...@rocketsoftware.com> wrote:

>
>
> _
> From: Jackie Burhans
> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 8:55 AM
> To: Daniel McGrath; Dave Peters
> Cc: Vinnie Smith
> Subject: RE: Post
>
>
> Very thorough response. Minor edits below in red. One suggested cut noted
> like this {xxx}
> One question--can you and Dave give some thoughts to conferences you might
> like to attend over the coming year. I'll talk with Susie about funding for
> that.
>
> Jackie Burhans
> Director, U2 Partner Enablement
> Rocket Software
> 4600 S. Ulster Street **Suite 1100 **Denver, CO 80237 * USA
> Tel: +1.720.475.8016 * Fax: +1.617.630.7392
> Email: jburh...@rs.com
> Web: www.rocketsoftware.com/u2
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Daniel McGrath
> Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2011 8:07 AM
> To: Jackie Burhans
> Cc: Vinnie Smith
> Subject: FW: Post
>
> Morning Jackie,
>
> I wrote thi

Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

[Rob Sobers]

Yes, and my point is that in the U2/UniBasic ecosystem, those collections of
subroutines are not readily available anywhere.

What if you want to use a web service that emits JSON?  Is it going to take
you 3 lines of code and 5 minutes to write a JSON parser?  And what about
serialization, compression, PDF generation?  These things are useful and not
trivial to write and maintain.

And what language features have been added to UniBasic lately?  I can't
think of any.  No objects, no regular expressions, no lambdas, etc.

-Rob

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 3:27 AM, Mecki Foerthmann  wrote:

> So what are libraries?
> They are nothing but a collection of subroutines that somebody else has
> written.
> And what do you do if you can't find a function in your library that does
> exactly what you need?
> You write your own, right?
> And by the time you have found the right function in your library you could
> have written the 3 lines of code in Basic that do the same thing already.
> I write Databasic code every day and have done so for over 20 years and
> hardly ever have use for functions, because if I needed them I would have
> written my own library by.
>
> Mecki
>
>
>
>
> On 14/07/2011 02:25, Rob Sobers wrote:
>
>> I have to heartily disagree that U2 has a sophisticated business rules
>> engine.  U2 Basic is such a limited language.  It barely has functions,
>> and
>> you have to home brew almost everything.
>>
>> Microsoft's T-SQL stored procedures are just as horrible to write as U2
>> Basic programs.  As Jeff Atwood put it -- "Stored procedures should be
>> considered database assembly language." [1] Why do you think Microsoft now
>> allows you to call CLR code from stored procedures?  Because it's so much
>> more efficient to work with the data (i.e., enforce the business rules) in
>> a
>> modern language like C# that has *actual libraries* for doing useful
>> things.
>>
>> I agree that business rules shouldn't be on the client -- but who says
>> they
>> have to be in the database?  Look at the ever-so-popular MVC architecture.
>>  The models (i.e., the code that works with the database and enforces all
>> of
>> the business rules) are isolated from the views (i.e., the
>> client/presentation code) entirely.
>>
>> -Rob
>>
>> [1]:
>> http://www.codinghorror.com/**blog/2004/10/who-needs-stored-**
>> procedures-anyways.html<http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2004/10/who-needs-stored-procedures-anyways.html>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 7:29 PM, Kevin King
>>  wrote:
>>
>>  +1 for what David said.  Yes, there's the "limitation" that BASIC is the
>>> only native supported language (not factoring external connectors), but
>>> as
>>> a
>>> language native to the environment, this BASIC is really pretty rich by
>>> comparison to the stored procedure languages of other DBs.
>>> __**_
>>> U2-Users mailing list
>>> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
>>> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users<http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users>
>>>
>>>  __**_
>> U2-Users mailing list
>> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
>> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users<http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users>
>>
> __**_
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> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users<http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users>
>
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Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

[Rob Sobers]

I have to heartily disagree that U2 has a sophisticated business rules
engine.  U2 Basic is such a limited language.  It barely has functions, and
you have to home brew almost everything.

Microsoft's T-SQL stored procedures are just as horrible to write as U2
Basic programs.  As Jeff Atwood put it -- "Stored procedures should be
considered database assembly language." [1] Why do you think Microsoft now
allows you to call CLR code from stored procedures?  Because it's so much
more efficient to work with the data (i.e., enforce the business rules) in a
modern language like C# that has *actual libraries* for doing useful things.

I agree that business rules shouldn't be on the client -- but who says they
have to be in the database?  Look at the ever-so-popular MVC architecture.
 The models (i.e., the code that works with the database and enforces all of
the business rules) are isolated from the views (i.e., the
client/presentation code) entirely.

-Rob

[1]:
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2004/10/who-needs-stored-procedures-anyways.html

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 7:29 PM, Kevin King  wrote:

> +1 for what David said.  Yes, there's the "limitation" that BASIC is the
> only native supported language (not factoring external connectors), but as
> a
> language native to the environment, this BASIC is really pretty rich by
> comparison to the stored procedure languages of other DBs.
> ___
> U2-Users mailing list
> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>
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Re: [U2] Why use U2, was Interesting Article

[Rob Sobers]

Let's see if I can draw a response from you, Symeon :-)...

What exactly makes you a U2 fanboy?  What features in U2 are you happy to
pay for?

-Rob

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Symeon Breen  wrote:

> I am a bit of a mongo DB fanboy myself, I think regarding performance,
> because of its autosharding any large scale application will definitely
> beat
> u2.  Mongo db powers many mainstream enterprise solutions, and high profile
> websites, - bit.ly comes to mind, so it certainly has a pedigree as well.
>
> However i am also a u2 fanboy  for many many reasons.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rob Sobers
> Sent: 13 July 2011 16:52
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Why use U2, was Interesting Article
>
> Wait, why can't you add a new column to a table in MySQL or SQL Server?
>
> Putting aside the RDMS arguments, (*apart from familiarity*) why wouldn't
> you use something like MongoDB or CouchDB, which are accessible from more
> programming environments, over U2?  They offer the same schema flexibility
> and disk space benefits you cite with U2 and so much more.
>
> MongoDB, for instance, has built-in mechanisms for auto-sharding,
> replication, REST API, full-text index, and I can go on and on.  And it's
> FREE! :-)
>
> I can't speak to performance, but I'd love to benchmark MongoDB versus U2.
>  Maybe I will.
>
> I know I sound like a MongoDB fanboy, but I think it's a straight-up U2
> killer.  I challenge anyone to find an area where U2 beats it.
>
> -Rob
>
> On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Jeff Schasny  wrote:
>
> > It scales well. I benchmarked 20K concurrent users for a wholesale
> > distribution application on a single (HP Superdome) server and that was
> 10
> > years ago.
> >
> > The database structure can be painlessly modified which makes it much
> > easier for new applications development. Need a new field, slap it on the
> > end of the table and go on with your day, try that with your favorite
> > relational environment.
> >
> > Not so important today as it once was when disk was more expensive,but it
> > uses significantly less disk space than a relational database storing the
> > equivalent data. This also contributes to needing significantly less
> overall
> > computing power to support X number of users for a given application due
> to
> > more efficient IO, i.e. less disk reads required.
> >
> > You can use SQL, but you don't have to. This, above all, is the MY most
> > significant reason to use U2.
> >
> > Holt, Jake wrote:
> >
> >> I'm not sure being cheaper than Oracle can really be touted as an
> >> advantage, there aren't many things out there that are more expensive
> than
> >> oracle =D.  And all of those things you just mentioned are also true of
> many
> >> FREE databases, so again, why pick U2?
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From:
> u2-users-bounces@listserver.**u2ug.org<
> u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org>
> [mailto:
> >>
> u2-users-bounces@**listserver.u2ug.org<
> u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org>
> ]
> >> On Behalf Of Israel, John R.
> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 9:31 AM
> >> To: 'U2 Users List'
> >> Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting Article
> >>
> >> You may have answered your own question.  Why do YOU like it?
> >>
> >> It is easy to develop, quick to code, fairly robust query language, and
> a
> >> lot cheaper than the BIG databases (Oracle, DB2, etc).
> >>
> >>
> >> John Israel
> >> Senior Programmer/Analyst
> >> Dayton Superior Corporation
> >> 1125 Byers Road
> >> Miamisburg, OH  45342
> >>
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From:
> u2-users-bounces@listserver.**u2ug.org<
> u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org>
> [mailto:
> >>
> u2-users-bounces@**listserver.u2ug.org<
> u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org>
> ]
> >> On Behalf Of Holt, Jake
> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:26 AM
> >> To: U2 Users List
> >> Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting Article
> >>
> >> I have come to like U2 over the past few years but an honest question:
> >>
> >> Why would anyone ever pick U2 beyond familiarity and personal
> preference?
> >>  Can anyone think of any situation that another (and in a lot of cases a
> >> *far* cheaper) databa

Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

[Rob Sobers]

I don't think the flavor of DB is a great indicator of whether you need a
dedicated DBA role.  Scale of deployment is probably a far better indicator.

If we're talking about personnel costs -- have you ever been able to hire a
college freshman for $20 bucks an hour who already has 2 years of U2 under
his belt from building WordPress sites?  The point being that there is much
more qualified MySQL and SQL Server talent available than U2 talent.

Also, DBs like MySQL are battle tested.  You'll rarely find a core bug in
MySQL if you're using a stable version.  Why?  Because hundreds of thousands
of developers are using it and thus finding the bugs (likely) before they
hit you.  When I was working with U2 every day, we consistently found and
were affected by core bugs.  Costly ones, too.

-Rob

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Bill Brutzman wrote:

> Let's focus on costs for a moment.   While of course MySQL is widely
> available... businesses that are seriously using MySQL generally buy
> maintenance for the year.  While I suppose that, pricewise,  MySQL support
> rather reasonable, it is also not "free"... and I suppose is approx. the
> same price as U2 maintenance.
>
> There other support costs to consider.  A lot of shops have say a
> programmer and a DBA.  When these shops find that there are comparable
> companies doing  U2 who have one guy who is both the programmer and the
> DBA... they wonder...  That then is (some of) the supporting reasoning.
>
> --Bill
>
> -Original Message-
>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 1:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?
>
> "When comparing U2 to Oracle or Microsoft SQL, U2 wins.  When comparing U2
> to MySQL, U2 still wins."
>
> That's a pretty blanket statement with no supporting reasoning.
>
> ___
> U2-Users mailing list
> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>
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Re: [U2] Why Pick U2 ?

[Rob Sobers]

"When comparing U2 to Oracle or Microsoft SQL, U2 wins.  When comparing U2
to MySQL, U2 still wins."

That's a pretty blanket statement with no supporting reasoning.

-Rob

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 12:34 PM, Bill Brutzman wrote:

> In the old days (when men were men) there were computer scientists and
> engineers who would analyze technologies and make design decisions...
> sometimes choosing one technology over another.  In those days, computers
> were a lot slower.  MulitValue always had tremendous speed advantages and
> was chosen by experts who were designing things like MRP (Material
> Requirements Planning) systems that had to handle a lot of complex data or
> say do complex calculations.
>
> These days, a lot of talented computer scientists and engineers realize
> that MultiValue still has a lot to offer.  Design decisions for MultiValue
> now seems to have more to do with total costs.  When comparing U2 to Oracle
> or Microsoft SQL, U2 wins.  When comparing U2 to MySQL, U2 still wins.
> Microsoft's Azure SQL is something of a new animal with a new costing model.
>  Will U2 win?
>
> --Bill
>
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:
> u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Holt, Jake
> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:44 AM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting Article
>
> I'm not sure being cheaper than Oracle can really be touted as an
> advantage, there aren't many things out there that are more expensive than
> oracle =D.  And all of those things you just mentioned are also true of many
> FREE databases, so again, why pick U2?
>
> ___
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> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>
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Re: [U2] Why use U2, was Interesting Article

[Rob Sobers]

Wait, why can't you add a new column to a table in MySQL or SQL Server?

Putting aside the RDMS arguments, (*apart from familiarity*) why wouldn't
you use something like MongoDB or CouchDB, which are accessible from more
programming environments, over U2?  They offer the same schema flexibility
and disk space benefits you cite with U2 and so much more.

MongoDB, for instance, has built-in mechanisms for auto-sharding,
replication, REST API, full-text index, and I can go on and on.  And it's
FREE! :-)

I can't speak to performance, but I'd love to benchmark MongoDB versus U2.
 Maybe I will.

I know I sound like a MongoDB fanboy, but I think it's a straight-up U2
killer.  I challenge anyone to find an area where U2 beats it.

-Rob

On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Jeff Schasny  wrote:

> It scales well. I benchmarked 20K concurrent users for a wholesale
> distribution application on a single (HP Superdome) server and that was 10
> years ago.
>
> The database structure can be painlessly modified which makes it much
> easier for new applications development. Need a new field, slap it on the
> end of the table and go on with your day, try that with your favorite
> relational environment.
>
> Not so important today as it once was when disk was more expensive,but it
> uses significantly less disk space than a relational database storing the
> equivalent data. This also contributes to needing significantly less overall
> computing power to support X number of users for a given application due to
> more efficient IO, i.e. less disk reads required.
>
> You can use SQL, but you don't have to. This, above all, is the MY most
> significant reason to use U2.
>
> Holt, Jake wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure being cheaper than Oracle can really be touted as an
>> advantage, there aren't many things out there that are more expensive than
>> oracle =D.  And all of those things you just mentioned are also true of many
>> FREE databases, so again, why pick U2?
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: 
>> u2-users-bounces@listserver.**u2ug.org[mailto:
>> u2-users-bounces@**listserver.u2ug.org]
>> On Behalf Of Israel, John R.
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 9:31 AM
>> To: 'U2 Users List'
>> Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting Article
>>
>> You may have answered your own question.  Why do YOU like it?
>>
>> It is easy to develop, quick to code, fairly robust query language, and a
>> lot cheaper than the BIG databases (Oracle, DB2, etc).
>>
>>
>> John Israel
>> Senior Programmer/Analyst
>> Dayton Superior Corporation
>> 1125 Byers Road
>> Miamisburg, OH  45342
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: 
>> u2-users-bounces@listserver.**u2ug.org[mailto:
>> u2-users-bounces@**listserver.u2ug.org]
>> On Behalf Of Holt, Jake
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2011 10:26 AM
>> To: U2 Users List
>> Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting Article
>>
>> I have come to like U2 over the past few years but an honest question:
>>
>> Why would anyone ever pick U2 beyond familiarity and personal preference?
>>  Can anyone think of any situation that another (and in a lot of cases a
>> *far* cheaper) database isn't a better fit?
>>
>> Maybe if U2 had it's own niche like MySQL has with web hosting, there
>> would be a market Rocket could focus on ?
>> __**_
>> U2-Users mailing list
>> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
>> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>>
>> __**_
>> U2-Users mailing list
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>> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>> __**_
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>> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
>> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> --**--**
> 
> Jeff Schasny - Denver, Co, USA
> jschasny at gmail dot com
> --**--**
> 
> __**_
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>
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Re: [U2] Interesting article

[Rob Sobers]

I don't know if I buy the arguments against open source for what we're
talking about.  We're not talking about a college kid's weekend project on
Github.

MySQL has Oracle behind it and its the most popular database in the world.
 Something tells me its not going away.  MongoDB has enterprise support from
it's corporate entity, 10gen, which is venture backed.

Why wouldn't you be able to security patch an open source project?  That's
the beauty of it -- you can always fork it and patch it, even if the
maintainer does't accept your patch.  I've been in situations with U2
specifically where I couldn't get them to plug a security hole in a timely
fashion and there was absolutely no way I could mitigate the problem.

I'll give you a half-a-point on the hackability point :-).  But how do you
think most of the major banks get away with running Linux and Apache on
their servers?

-Rob

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 10:21 PM, David Jordan  wrote:

> Hi Rob
> Open source has its advantages, but there is the reverse side.  I need to
> know that it has ongoing support if I commit a package on it, I have seen
> too many people get into trouble when an open source application is no
> longer supported.  Organisations have not been able to apply security
> patches because their free application cannot support the security patch.
> There is also the question of security, is open source easier to hack, is it
> easier to put in back doors.  My clients want to know what happens if I get
> hit by the proverbial bus, I need to justify continuity to them and the open
> source environment does not provide that continuity.   I am not going to be
> able to put an application into the London Stock exchange based on open
> source, they could not justify to their board, risk managers and regulators.
>
> The cost of supporting open source is sometimes greater than paid for
> applications.  The question to ensure, does U2 provide a value add to my
> development.
>
> Regards
>
> David Jordan
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:
> u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rob Sobers
> Sent: Wednesday, 13 July 2011 11:41 AM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article
>
> David,
>
> You're correct that U2 users need to be vocal about what they want, but
> Rocket has to be proactive, too.  Surely they have a few analysts on staff
> that can read Techmeme or attend a few conferences and see for themselves
> where developers are headed.  It's probably not wise to only listen to
> *current
> *U2 users anyway.
>
> I started to make a list in my head of what I'd ask Rocket for, but then I
> stopped because everything I'd ask for I can get* *elsewhere...for
> free...right now.
>
> If I were starting a brand new project today, I'd be hard pressed to find a
> single reason to pick a U2 database over a free, open-source alternative
> like MongoDB, PostgreSQL, or MySQL which have drivers for almost every
> language, heaps of documentation and troubleshooting resources online, fast
> release cycles, and great (free) developer tools.
>
> Can anyone else think of one?
>
> -Rob
>
>
> The biggest thing for me is accessibility from other languages, because the
>
> On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 7:02 PM, David Jordan  wrote:
>
> > Rob your comments are not wrong.  However U2 management want to go
> > where they think the market is.  As users we don't tell them anything
> > and then complain that they are not mind readers and are not heading in
> the direction
> > we want to go.   As a user group, we give users a voice to be able to set
> > direction.  Of course there are a million one views about the future, but
> we
> > can build a business case based on the wishes of the majority.   I have
> sat
> > down with Rocket and explained how Microsoft Azure could provide a
> > market opportunity and how U2 could work in this environment and I am
> > working with them to look at its feasibility.  Others are looking at
> > REST and a range of other APIs.  Rocket is not so much ignoring us
> > rather we as users are not talking to Rocket constructively.
> >
> > What is important is to turn this discussion into something constructive.
> >  If Rocket asked you what you want, what would you say.
> >
> > David Jordan
> > VP U2UG
> > ___
> > U2-Users mailing list
> > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
> >
> ___
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Re: [U2] Interesting article

[Rob Sobers]

David,

You're correct that U2 users need to be vocal about what they want, but
Rocket has to be proactive, too.  Surely they have a few analysts on staff
that can read Techmeme or attend a few conferences and see for themselves
where developers are headed.  It's probably not wise to only listen to *current
*U2 users anyway.

I started to make a list in my head of what I'd ask Rocket for, but then I
stopped because everything I'd ask for I can get* *elsewhere...for
free...right now.

If I were starting a brand new project today, I'd be hard pressed to find a
single reason to pick a U2 database over a free, open-source alternative
like MongoDB, PostgreSQL, or MySQL which have drivers for almost every
language, heaps of documentation and troubleshooting resources online, fast
release cycles, and great (free) developer tools.

Can anyone else think of one?

-Rob


The biggest thing for me is accessibility from other languages, because the

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 7:02 PM, David Jordan  wrote:

> Rob your comments are not wrong.  However U2 management want to go where
> they think the market is.  As users we don't tell them anything and then
> complain that they are not mind readers and are not heading in the direction
> we want to go.   As a user group, we give users a voice to be able to set
> direction.  Of course there are a million one views about the future, but we
> can build a business case based on the wishes of the majority.   I have sat
> down with Rocket and explained how Microsoft Azure could provide a market
> opportunity and how U2 could work in this environment and I am working with
> them to look at its feasibility.  Others are looking at REST and a range of
> other APIs.  Rocket is not so much ignoring us rather we as users are not
> talking to Rocket constructively.
>
> What is important is to turn this discussion into something constructive.
>  If Rocket asked you what you want, what would you say.
>
> David Jordan
> VP U2UG
> ___
> U2-Users mailing list
> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>
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Re: [U2] Interesting article

[Rob Sobers]

There's a lot of generalizations being made in that article.

In my experience with MySQL, it's just not as good as other production-grade
SQL alternatives like Microsoft SQL Server, PostgreSQL, or Oracle.  I'd
classify this a MySQL + big data problem before I'd call it a SQL-as-a-whole
+ big data problem.

It could also be that Facebook's architecture sucks, or they have built up a
lot of technical debt in the process of scaling so fast and hiring an army
of engineers.

I mean, StackOverlow serves 800 HTTP request **per second* */ 95 million
page views per month with *2 (yes two) *SQL Server machines.

Also, saying that relational databases are a thing of the past pretty
ridiculous.  Most of the problems we're trying to solve fit the relational
model very well.  I think you'll find that most people are using NoSQL
databases for caches, queuing, etc.

I don't get the corollary to MV databases, because I think that'd be the
last tool I'd pick for scaling a site like Facebook, but have to agree with
the point that if the MV vendors want to ride on the NoSQL wave there has to
be better APIs.  I looked into creating a Ruby adapter for UniData.  After
about an hour I wanted to kill myself.

And even if the APIs get better, why would anyone pick something like U2,
which is expensive, closed source, and has a tiny ecosystem versus any of
the dozens of free, open source, popular alternatives?  I can't think of
anything that U2 would bring to the table over MongoDB, Redis, et. al.

I apologize for sounding so negative -- I'm actually rooting for MV
databases.  I just believe that the MV vendors are still focusing on serving
the customers who are locked in and ignoring what's happening everywhere
else.

-Rob

On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 4:45 PM, Daniel McGrath  wrote:

> "Mongo DB is Web Scale"
>
> Warning: Contains occasional course language.
>
> http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6995033/mongo-db-is-web-scale
>
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:
> u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen
> Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 2:24 PM
> To: 'U2 Users List'
> Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article
>
> Distributed autosharding cloud based environment - i can recommend Mongo DB
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno
> Sent: 12 July 2011 20:47
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: Re: [U2] Interesting article
>
> > From: Bill Haskett
> > I wonder if this implies that those who U2 are all database "gurus"?
> > :-)
>
> I get the humor but...
> I need to create a distributed cloud-based MV environment, obviously
> smaller than Facebook but using the same concept of "shards" for distributed
> storage and computing.  So far most of the Pick people I talk to have no
> idea what I'm talking about let alone how to implement it with MV.  We're
> not gurus if we don't speak the same language as the rest of the world.
>
> As to "old SQL", there is a revolution going on out there and I'm wondering
> if other MV people have seen this:  Look at the data storage for Android,
> Google App Engine, AmazonDB, etc.  All of these platforms and others are
> using name/value pairs with some relational functionality, but they're not
> using SQL.  Once again we're missing a whole new generation of data hungry
> applications.
>
> While there are still new methods of data storage and retrieval being
> created all the time, the MV market needs to define a consistent web service
> / REST API for data access and rule execution, accessible from any client.
>  (That's easy, I have done this many times for various projects and for most
> MV platforms.)
> >From there, professionals in this community can position as
> experts to provide applications, DBMS support services, rules in BASIC,
> hosting, and mentoring for a new generation of people who might like to use
> BASIC for rules rather than Java, Ruby, Go, or whatever else they're just
> starting to learn.
>
> Yeah... as if...
>
> Tony Gravagno
> Nebula Research and Development
> TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com
> remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog
> Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute!
> http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno
>
>
>
> > From:Symeon Breen
>
> > Some on here will be interested in this. I esp like Gigaom's
> quote
> >
> > "old SQL (as he calls it) is good for nothing" and needs to be "sent
> > to the home for retired software."
> > After all, he explained, SQL was created decades ago before the web,
> > mobile devices and sensors forever changed how and how often databases
> > are accessed.
> >
> >
>  arns-database-guru-33864>
>
>
> ___
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> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
> -
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Re: [U2] Git and U2

[Rob Sobers]

Good point, Dan.

Dropbox is such a good service, too.  It's a shame that a) they let it
happen (unit tests, man!) and b.) they handled it so poorly PR-wise.  On the
bright side, it's not nearly as bad as Citibank or Sony.

-Rob


On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 3:43 PM, Dan McGrath  wrote:

> Rob, might not be the best idea to say secure cloud-based and Dropbox in
> the
> same email as a comparison after what happened to dropbox recently ;)
> ___
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> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>
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Re: [U2] Git and U2

[Rob Sobers]

Same here.  I do all my work on the command line, too.  While Kiln has a
nice web UI for browsing code, searching code, organizing repos, and viewing
diffs, you can simply use it as a secure cloud-based host for your code.
 Think Dropbox for your code.

It's nice to be able to be on any remote server with internet access and
Mercurial installed and "hg clone" my dotfiles or utiliity scripts from
Kiln.

-Rob

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 11:05 PM,  wrote:

> Thx. I usually just enjoy the command line interface hg. Not even that
> comfortable in Tortoise. I do so much work on remote servers, I dont want to
> depend on a graphical tool.
>
> __**_
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> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>
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Re: [U2] Git and U2

[Rob Sobers]

Steve,

I'm also an avid Mercurial user.

You can pass a single filename or directory to hg revert:

  hg revert -r163 foo.txt

Will only revert foo.txt to its state at revision 163 and leave all of the
other files in that changeset alone.

In addition to Google Code and Source Forge, Fog Creek Software has a
product called Kiln, which does public and private Mercurial hosting.  It's
free for up to 2 users and comes with an integrated bug tracker (FogBugz).

-Rob

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 8:09 AM, Steve Romanow  wrote:

> On 3/3/2011 7:09 PM, Doug wrote:
>
>> I think the idea of Distributed Version Control System (DVSC) has some
>> merit
>> for certain applications.  Google Code supports Subversion, and Mercurial
>> and maybe others in its DVSC system.  Several of our customers make us
>> jump
>> through hoops to get at their source code.  So you are now thinking about
>> storing source code on Google servers that replicate all over the world.
>> The problems that I can envision are overwhelming my head here in
>> Colorado,
>> maybe it's the altitude.  I better go outside and take a breather...
>>
>> I'm back and I have a few questions:
>> 1) What editor are you using?
>> 2) How are you going to wrap the editor calls to capture the source code,
>> the procs, the paragraphs, the voc changes, and the dictionaries changes
>> to
>> Google.
>> 3) Are using real-time or batch updates?
>> 4) How to you know your updates were applied?
>>
>
> What I do for my company is:
>
> I have 3 main repos, one for TEST, PROD, and PROGS (vendor branch)
>
> each of TEST and PROD include USER-FORMS, USER-PROGS, and bin.
>
> hgignore lets me filter out all the object code so it is not stored in the
> repo.
>
> These repos are cloned to my local workstation and my laptop.  I mainly use
> those for research and basically a "worst-case-scenario" backup.
>
> Editing:
> My editing and vcs usage is separate.  I do not commit every change
> immediately, I mean some testing needs to occur and I am usually
> multitasking so things move forward in fits and starts.
>
> Commits:
> At the moment, I am the only person that commits in my org.  I use "hg st"
> to see what has changed in the past 24, and then I use the -user arg on "hg
> ci" to give attribution to the dev that did the work.  I am basically acting
> as librarian and responsible party for my company.
>
> Reversions and Restores:
> Since my repo has ~5k items in it, and I am using a "shared working
> directory", "hg revert" can never, never be done.  If you rever a repo to
> say changeset 163, ALL modules that were changed since them will be
> reverted.  What I do is research which changeset I want, and I "hg cat" it
> to the current dir.  Than I commit that version.  Nothing has ever been lost
> with this method.
>
> Branches:
> Very little use for this at the moment.  I usually make a copy of a routine
> appending issue number and when testing is complete, rename it back to the
> original name (using hg copy and hg rename of course, this keeps history of
> the copies).
>
> Right now I have No Good Answer for dictionary items and SB+ objects.  I
> did receive some info last year of a list subscriber that has a system I
> think would work for me but I have not been able to implement it yet.
>
> Public vs Private:
> Google Code, Sourceforge, etc are for discrete modules that you intend to
> allow ppl to clone and hack on.  That is how that economy works, you get
> patches for improvements from friends and strangers.  You can choose whether
> to accept or decline the patches.  There are a couple of projects where I am
> not a main dev or even affiliated, but I have benefited from their
> generosity, and I have provided testing, patches, and documentation.
>
> David has signaled by putting it on GC that it will have some form of
> public access.  That is up to him what he does with his code.
>
> __**_
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> http://listserver.u2ug.org/**mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>
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Re: [U2] Does anyone have an MV BASIC cheatsheet?

[Rob Sobers]

Here's a cheat sheet for the UniBasic debugger:

http://u2tech.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/unibasic-debugger-cheat-sheet-v1-0-0.pdf

-Rob

On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 6:59 PM, Theo Aivazian wrote:

> I bet Jonathan Sisk, Has one!!!
>
> Theo
>
> On Mar 23, 2011, at 7:18 PM, Glen Batchelor wrote:
>
> >
> > Does EPick v1.0.4.EPICK0 equal an MV cheatsheet. ;)
> >
> > Yes, I still have an ancient copy on the D3 system here.
> >  No, I don't use it for real research.
> >
> > It is fun to read and I just don't have the nerve to purge it.
> >
> > 
> > Glen Batchelor
> > IT Director/CIO/CTO
> > All-Spec Industries
> > phone: (910) 332-0424
> >   fax: (910) 763-5664
> > E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com
> >   Web: http://www.all-spec.com
> >  Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com
> > 
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-
> >> boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Dawn Wolthuis
> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 1:17 PM
> >> To: U2 Users List
> >> Subject: [U2] Does anyone have an MV BASIC cheatsheet?
> >>
> >> I have cheatsheets for JavaScript, HTML, and CSS for training student
> >> interns but do not have one for MV BASIC. It's a long shot, but just
> >> in case anyone has one, I'd love to see and use it. Thanks.  --dawn
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dawn M. Wolthuis
> >>
> >> Take and give some delight today
> >> ___
> >> U2-Users mailing list
> >> U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> >> http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
> >
> > ___
> > U2-Users mailing list
> > U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
> > http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [U2] JSON Parsing

[Rob Sobers]

Hi Doug,

So you do the conversion from JSON to U2 Dynamic Array *before* you hit the
database layer (i.e., not in UniBasic)?  How do you handle JSON strings that
have more depth than sub-values can accommodate?

-Rob

On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 10:34 AM, Doug  wrote:

> We call the product XLr8 and it runs on Apache Tomcat.  XLr8 can run your
> favorite language PHP.  Or XLr8 can run JSP, HTML, or JavaScript.  Our
> technology is licensed and not open sourced, so you will have to purchase a
> license.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Kevin King
> Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 4:10 PM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] JSON Parsing
>
> Yes, on the BASIC side.  You use CHANGE in BASIC to convert a
> multidimensional JSON object to a dynamic array?  Okay, you have my
> attention... do tell please.
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Re: [U2] Uniobjects on windows

[Rob Sobers]

Hey Doug,

It's disheartening to hear that the personal addition prohibits UniObjects
connections.  Does Rocket really think we're going to avoid paying them by
running production applications on the personal addition?  What does this
restriction accomplish besides preventing folks from conducting an accurate
evaluation of the product, which could eventually lead to a purchase?

Even M$FT offers a really nice free version in SQL Server Express.  MySQL,
as we all know, is 100% free.  And then there's all those free, open-source
NoSQL solutions as well.  Rocket has to wake up if they ever want U2 to gain
any traction.



-Rob

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 6:15 PM, doug chanco  wrote:

> I think I found the answer, it doesn't look like I can use uniobjects with
> the personal edition of universe as teh documentation mentions configuring
> RPC and gives an example but following it there is no option to configure
> RPC in uniadmin.
>
> I wanted to use it as a proof of concept but it I guess I will either have
> to get a version with a couple of licenses or try something else 
>
> anyway thanks everyone
>
> dougc
>
>
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Re: [U2] Sparse array population in Pick

[Rob Sobers]

Doug,

I love JSON and use it all the time, mainly in JavaScript and Python, but
how do you propose persisting it to a U2 database?  Or are you proposing
that one would persist data in the native attribute, value, sub-value format
and then de-serialize into JSON for the purpose of transporting?

-Rob

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Doug  wrote:

> Read up about JSON (JavaScript Object Notation).  At least JSON is
> compatible with Java, JavaScript, PHP, Python, and Ruby to name a few, see
> http://json.org.  Your field names can be dictionaries or meta names.
> Most other languages besides Unidata or Universe are not happy with dots in
> the named fields so you need to replace them with some other character like
> a underline. You will have to write a parser in UniBasic but you can do in
> about 30 lines of code.  This syntax supports multi-values or even
> sub-values.  Here are some simple examples:
>
> Here is a single valued record:
>  [{"IdCode":"A","Desc":"Active","ReportColor":"#CC","No_AR":""}]
>
> Here is a multivalued record:
>
> [{"IdCode":"178*MAINT","CustomerNo":"178,"G1EffectiveDate":[["10/01/2007"],[
> "12/31/2010"]],"G1BillRate":[["0.00"],["1.00"]]}]"
>
> JavaScript Reference would be for the first line if it was loaded as an
> object called oData as:
>
> Single array reference:
> oData[0].IdCode would be "178*MAINT"
>
> Multiple array reference:
> oData[0].G1EffectiveDate[1][0] would be "12/31/2010"
>
> We use this format in our U2WebLink middleware running under UniObjects for
> Java for the Web.   The data is much more compact than XML and very
> readable.  Most of the languages have the ability to parse this in a single
> function.  In JavaScript it takes around 7 to 10 milliseconds to parse a
> pretty big JSON string into a JSON array.
>
> Regards,
> Doug
> www.u2logic.com/tools.html
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rob Sobers
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 4:05 PM
> To: U2 Users List
> Subject: Re: [U2] Sparse array population in Pick
>
> What's the motivation for stuffing an XML-like data structure into a U2
> database?  Is this just a thought experiment?
>
> -Rob
>
> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 5:35 PM, David A. Green
> wrote:
>
> > If you can restrict the tag names to valid dictionary names you could
> > do something like:
> >
> > TAGS DICT:
> > 1052_MAKE
> > 1052_MODEL
> > 1052_AGE
> >
> > TAGS DATA:
> > 001 Chrysler
> > 002 LeBaron
> > 003 7 years and 3 days
> >
> > David A. Green
> > (480) 813-1725
> > DAG Consulting
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> > [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of
> > fft2...@aol.com
> > Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 3:10 PM
> > To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> > Subject: [U2] Sparse array population in Pick
> >
> > Years ago I had written a system, far predating XML, where the
> > element-tags were unpredictable.  Essentially the user was allowed to
> > create any tags they wished, and any number of tags they wished, attached
> to another item.
> >
> > Each tag had an associated value.  So far example
> >   Zip Code = 95062
> >
> > You could not however predict what tags a person would use, they were
> > all free-form and user-supplied, but you still had to store the tag
> > with their associated value.
> >
> > At the time I developed two ideas for how to do this in a Pick item
> >
> > TAGS1052
> > 001 Make = Chrysler
> > 002 Model = LeBaron
> > 003 Age = 7 years and 3 days
> >
> > TAGS1052
> > 001 Make]Model]Age
> > 002 Chrysler
> > 003 LeBaron
> > 004 7 years and 3 days
> >
> > The first model is clear.  Anyone with no programming background at
> > all, can easily understand it, and also easily edit it.  It suffers
> > from requiring more elaborate programming than the second model, as
> > you have to parse every
> >
> > element.
> >
> > The second model is not quite as clear.  You determine the attibute
> > position of the "value" by locate the tag in attribute 1 and then
> > adding 1 to it.
> > That gives you the attribute number where the value lives.
> > Alternately you could simply pre-fill attribute 1 with an initial null

Re: [U2] Sparse array population in Pick

[Rob Sobers]

What's the motivation for stuffing an XML-like data structure into a U2
database?  Is this just a thought experiment?

-Rob

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 5:35 PM, David A. Green wrote:

> If you can restrict the tag names to valid dictionary names you could do
> something like:
>
> TAGS DICT:
> 1052_MAKE
> 1052_MODEL
> 1052_AGE
>
> TAGS DATA:
> 001 Chrysler
> 002 LeBaron
> 003 7 years and 3 days
>
> David A. Green
> (480) 813-1725
> DAG Consulting
>
> -Original Message-
> From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 3:10 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: [U2] Sparse array population in Pick
>
> Years ago I had written a system, far predating XML, where the element-tags
> were unpredictable.  Essentially the user was allowed to create any tags
> they wished, and any number of tags they wished, attached to another item.
>
> Each tag had an associated value.  So far example
>   Zip Code = 95062
>
> You could not however predict what tags a person would use, they were all
> free-form and user-supplied, but you still had to store the tag with their
> associated value.
>
> At the time I developed two ideas for how to do this in a Pick item
>
> TAGS1052
> 001 Make = Chrysler
> 002 Model = LeBaron
> 003 Age = 7 years and 3 days
>
> TAGS1052
> 001 Make]Model]Age
> 002 Chrysler
> 003 LeBaron
> 004 7 years and 3 days
>
> The first model is clear.  Anyone with no programming background at all,
> can easily understand it, and also easily edit it.  It suffers from
> requiring
> more elaborate programming than the second model, as you have to parse
> every
>
> element.
>
> The second model is not quite as clear.  You determine the attibute
> position of the "value" by locate the tag in attribute 1 and then adding 1
> to it.
> That gives you the attribute number where the value lives.  Alternately you
> could simply pre-fill attribute 1 with an initial null to push everything
> forward 1 place, then you wouldn't have to add 1 after your locate.
>
> Comments?  Critiques?  Nasty cat-calls and grimaces?
>
> Will Johnson
>
>
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Re: [U2] Uppercasing in SELECT

[Rob Sobers]

I'm a little late to the party, but this topic has been discussed on Stack
Overflow too:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1639403/how-to-do-a-unidata-case-insensitive-search-with-uniquery

<http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1639403/how-to-do-a-unidata-case-insensitive-search-with-uniquery>Never
knew that you could eval a function in a UniQuery statement.

Rob Sobers

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 8:34 AM,  wrote:

> >>Based on the info there we find that you can create an A/S dict
> >>item with MCT in both the a7 conversion AND the a8 correlative,
> >>and you will get exactly what you want - the ability for any
> >>query casing to match any data casing.
>
> Great that will make it unnecessary to uppercase the query argument in the
> PHP code.  Thanks.
>
> Charles Shaffer
> Senior Analyst
> NTN-Bower Corporation
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Re: [U2] Mac Connection to UniVerse

[Rob Sobers]

Hey Don,

I believe Dynamic Connect, wIntegrate, and the other client tools that
Rocket makes are Windows only.  Can you just use Mac's built in terminal to
telnet or ssh to your UniVerse server?  What type of terminal emulation does
your server expect?

Here are some resources that might help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terminal_emulators#Mac_OS

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terminal_emulators#Mac_OS>
http://www.macwise.com/

Regards,

<http://superuser.com/questions/105009/most-efficient-terminal-emulator-for-unidata-universe-or-other-mv-based-systems>Rob
Sobers
http://accidentalhacker.com

On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 8:36 PM, Don P. Nagai wrote:

> Has anyone installed Dynamic Connect on a Mac to connect to a UniVerse
> server via telnet?
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> Don
>
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