Re: [VINUX-DEVELOPMENT] Orca caps-lock fix

[Bill Cox]

Thanks for generating this patch, Attila.  It looks good to me.

Bill

2011/11/10 Hammer Attila :
> Hy Bill,
>
> I tryed your last attached patch with my Oneiric system, The patch works
> wonderful with Orca master version. Thank you this patch.
> I attaching now a git diff command generated patch.
> Beginner users easyest appliing this patch, if already downloaded for
> example with Orca master version from git repository without need going in
> src/orca directory and run patch -p0 command. This situation need doing
> following:
> 1. Please go to top of the Orca main source directory.
> 2. Run simple following command:
> patch -p1  If the patch is right applied, you will be see the patch is applied with
> src/orca/orca.py file.
> 3. Do ./autogen.sh, make, make install commands, and restart Orca. After
> this nothing need doing, the Orca caps lock related issue is resolved.
> I not tested this patch with orca-xdesktop branch, because my Lucid system
> this issue is not happening.
> If you not need doing any work this issue related your patch, please attach
> your patch with following bugreport:
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=658122
> Hopefuly this way fix is acceptable with upstream level, and short time will
> be Joanie or other Orca developer committing this fix.
>
> Attila
>

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Re: [VINUX-DEVELOPMENT] Orca caps-lock fix

[Bill Cox]

I've attached an alternate patch to Orca to fix the caps lock problem
that does not require any change to any other package.  It's a bit of
a hack.  It calls xkbcomp to get the entire keyboard state, makes the
change we need, and calls xkbcomp again to write the modified keyboard
map.

On the positive side, it should in theory just work for everyone, and
there's no need to delay the fix while we wait on an upstream patch.
My recommendation is to go ahead and apply (and Orca-fy) the patch to
orca.py while we wait for upstream to add the new caps mode, and for
the various distros that work with orca to ship with the new mode.
Then we can ship the simpler patch that just enables the new caps lock
mode.

I'll get the upstream patch started ASAP, after a meeting I'm about to
attend.  However, it will probably be a while before Orca can count on
having the new caps mode.  In the meantime, this hack should work
well.

Bill

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Don Marang  wrote:
> Great work!  It appears that the right people are prepared to implement this
> change for orca and Ubuntu.
>
> Do I read this right that a change is also required from another package,
> setxkbmap?  Has the developers of this package been notified?  I have no
> visibility into their development.  Are they receptive or will we need to
> nag to get this change implemented?
>
>
> Don Marang
>
> On 11/8/2011 5:33 PM, Bill Cox wrote:
>
> The old xmodmap program seems to be beginning to break down.  It's
> considered obsolete and has been replaced with setxkbmap.  Orca uses
> xmodmap to disable the caps lock key, but in newer versions of
> xmodmap, that also causes it to no longer work as a modifier key.  I
> believe this is why we're seeing the caps lock key Unbuntu Oneiric
> toggling whenever pressed.
>
> On my system, I got it working with a patch to Orca to use setxkbmap,
> and by editing some configuration files in the xkeyboard-config
> package to add a new caps lock configuration, which I called "orca".
> Done this way, this option shows up in the Keyboard settings dialog
> along with the other settings for the caps lock key, which is kind of
> cool.  I have Orca enable the orca mode with:
>
> setxkbmap -option caps:orca
>
> and disable it with:
>
> setxkbmap -option
>
> I've attached diff files created with diff -Naur.  The orca.py patch
> is fairly simple.  The down side is that it requires the new orca mode
> in the xkb configuration, so these patches have to be in sync.
>
> Bill
>
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>
--- orca.py.saved	2011-11-08 17:11:33.584217326 -0500
+++ orca.py	2011-11-09 15:03:18.153468609 -0500
@@ -29,6 +29,8 @@
 
 import getopt
 import os
+import subprocess
+import re
 import signal
 import sys
 import time
@@ -1415,6 +1417,45 @@
 settings.silenceSpeech = True
 return True
 
+def _setXmodmap(xkbmap):
+"""Set the keyboard map using xkbcomp."""
+p = subprocess.Popen(['xkbcomp', '-w0', '-', os.environ['DISPLAY']],
+stdin=subprocess.PIPE, stdout=None, stderr=None)
+p.communicate(xkbmap)
+
+def _setCapsLockAsOrcaModifier(enable):
+"""Enable or disable use of the caps lock key as an Orca modifier key."""
+interpretCapsLineProg = re.compile(
+r'^\s*interpret\s+Caps[_+]Lock[_+]AnyOfOrNone\s*\(all\)\s*{\s*$', re.I)
+capsModLineProg = re.compile(
+r'^\s*action\s*=\s*SetMods\s*\(\s*modifiers\s*=\s*Lock\s*,\s*clearLocks\s*\)\s*;\s*$', re.I)
+normalCapsLineProg = re.compile(
+r'^\s*action\s*=\s*LockMods\s*\(\s*modifiers\s*=\s*Lock\s*\)\s*;\s*$', re.I)
+normalCapsLine = 'action= LockMods(modifiers=Lock);'
+capsModLine ='action= SetMods(modifiers=Lock,clearLocks);'
+global _originalXmodmap
+lines = _originalXmodmap.split('\n')
+foundCapsInterpretSection = False
+for i in range(len(lines)):
+line = lines[i]
+if not foundCapsInterpretSection:
+if interpretCapsLineProg.match(line):
+foundCapsInterpretSection = True
+else:
+if enable:
+if normalCapsLineProg.match(line):
+lines[i] = capsModLine
+_setX

Oneiric accessibility: install, Unity, and Unity 2D

[Bill Cox]

I'm in the process of installing Ubuntu Oneiric 11.10.  Here's my
first impressions.  The install needs a bit of work, but  when Orca is
enabled on boot using the magic key sequence, it seems basically
usable.  I had a crash related to Orca I think, though I was poking
around the desktop with my mouse during the install.

Orca still has issues with Unity, though I didn't explore much of it.
The same bug that I saw in Maverick where the caps lock key toggles on
every Orca command is still there.  By itself, I suspect Unity could
be fully accessible by the 12.04 release.  There's a big decision for
Vinux: whether to try and use Gnome 3 in the future, or Unity.  I have
a slight preference for Unity, but I have a small screen and need
large fonts and/or magnification, so Unity's netbook optimized layout
is particularly good for me.  I also suspect we could work easily with
the Ubuntu team to enhance accessibility.

A non-starter for me is that Unity doesn't work with Compiz, and I
require it's inverse video and magnification capabilities.  So, I've
switched to Ubuntu 2D, which I believe was built using QT.  Compiz
works great, but Orca doesn't see the Unity desktop.  So, I'm not sure
what to recommend the Vinux community.  Options on the table, I think,
are Gnome shell 3.0, Unity 2D and the default Unity.  I hear Gnome
shell 3.0 is also incompatible with Compiz.  Anyone have any opinions
on the right way to build Vinux 4.0?

Bill

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Is Java accessibility broken?

[Bill Cox]

I see that people seem to be using Java to play media in Ubuntu, but
with at-spi running in Ubuntu 10.10 x64, I can't get a simple Java
example off the web to run.  The example I'm trying is attached.

I compile it with 'javac SoundTest.java', and run it with 'java
SoundTest'.  The error dump follows:

src> java SoundTest
Apr 18, 2011 10:37:40 AM com.sun.corba.se.impl.ior.IORImpl getProfile
WARNING: "IOP00511201: (INV_OBJREF) IOR must have at least one IIOP profile"
org.omg.CORBA.INV_OBJREF:   vmcid: SUN  minor code: 1201  completed: No
at 
com.sun.corba.se.impl.logging.IORSystemException.iorMustHaveIiopProfile(IORSystemException.java:473)
at 
com.sun.corba.se.impl.logging.IORSystemException.iorMustHaveIiopProfile(IORSystemException.java:495)
at com.sun.corba.se.impl.ior.IORImpl.getProfile(IORImpl.java:334)
at 
com.sun.corba.se.impl.encoding.CDRInputStream_1_0.read_Object(CDRInputStream_1_0.java:787)
at 
com.sun.corba.se.impl.encoding.CDRInputStream_1_0.read_Object(CDRInputStream_1_0.java:761)
at 
com.sun.corba.se.impl.encoding.CDRInputStream.read_Object(CDRInputStream.java:231)
at 
com.sun.corba.se.impl.resolver.INSURLOperationImpl.getIORFromString(INSURLOperationImpl.java:120)
at 
com.sun.corba.se.impl.resolver.INSURLOperationImpl.operate(INSURLOperationImpl.java:130)
at com.sun.corba.se.impl.orb.ORBImpl.string_to_object(ORBImpl.java:836)
at 
org.GNOME.Accessibility.AccessUtil.getRegistryObject(AccessUtil.java:143)
at 
org.GNOME.Accessibility.JavaBridge.registerApplication(JavaBridge.java:1154)
at org.GNOME.Accessibility.JavaBridge.(JavaBridge.java:405)
at sun.reflect.NativeConstructorAccessorImpl.newInstance0(Native Method)
at 
sun.reflect.NativeConstructorAccessorImpl.newInstance(NativeConstructorAccessorImpl.java:57)
at 
sun.reflect.DelegatingConstructorAccessorImpl.newInstance(DelegatingConstructorAccessorImpl.java:45)
at java.lang.reflect.Constructor.newInstance(Constructor.java:532)
at java.lang.Class.newInstance0(Class.java:372)
at java.lang.Class.newInstance(Class.java:325)
at java.awt.Toolkit.loadAssistiveTechnologies(Toolkit.java:786)
at java.awt.Toolkit.getDefaultToolkit(Toolkit.java:875)
at java.awt.Window.getToolkit(Window.java:1170)
at java.awt.Window.init(Window.java:400)
at java.awt.Window.(Window.java:438)
at java.awt.Frame.(Frame.java:419)
at java.awt.Frame.(Frame.java:384)
at javax.swing.JFrame.(JFrame.java:174)
at SoundTest.main(SoundTest.java:19)
java.io.FileNotFoundException: x.wav (No such file or directory)

I see that it's dying in the Java accessibility bridge.  Does any of
this work in Ubuntu today?  Should I file a bug report?

Thanks,
Bill
import java.awt.event.KeyListener;
import java.io.File;
import java.io.IOException;

import javax.sound.sampled.AudioInputStream;
import javax.sound.sampled.AudioSystem;
import javax.sound.sampled.Clip;
import javax.sound.sampled.LineUnavailableException;
import javax.sound.sampled.UnsupportedAudioFileException;
import javax.swing.JFrame;


public class SoundTest {

	/**
	 * @param args
	 */
	public static void main(String[] args) {
JFrame frame = new JFrame();
frame.setSize(300,300);
frame.setDefaultCloseOperation(JFrame.EXIT_ON_CLOSE);
frame.setVisible(true);

try {
AudioInputStream audio = AudioSystem.getAudioInputStream(new File("x.wav"));
Clip clip = AudioSystem.getClip();
clip.open(audio);
clip.start();
}

catch(UnsupportedAudioFileException uae) {
System.out.println(uae);
}
catch(IOException ioe) {
System.out.println(ioe);
}
catch(LineUnavailableException lua) {
System.out.println(lua);
}
}
}
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Re: Testing A11y

[Bill Cox]

Hi Penelope.

There's also a11y user testing, which is not very good in any major
distro.  It's not their fault - only expert users of a11y software can
do in depth user testing.  I'm not capable of doing solid Orca testing
myself, and rely on blind Vinux users to do it for me.  I think
everyone in Vinux land agrees that we want to help with in-depth a11y
user testing of package updates in Ubuntu, so long as it's possible to
do safely, without causing speech to go away.

Nimer Jaber has volunteered to coordinate testing in Vinux.  First, he
wants to organize Vinux users to document which applications are
screen-reader friendly, and document how to work around their
limitations.  Long term, I would like to see accessibility ratings and
documentation incorporated into the software installers, so users
could quickly find accessible applications.

However, I think Nimer also wants to coordinate user testing of new
packages as updates become available from Ubuntu.  Doing this safely
is a bit complicated, so I'm going to post a longer, more technical
email to the vinux-dev list about it.

Bill

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 7:14 PM, Penelope Stowe  wrote:
> Rather than continue to take over Bill's thread, I figured I'd start a new 
> one.
>
> I'm interested in what works for Gnome and distros other than Ubuntu
> for testing a11y.
>
> We're really trying to figure out how to make it work, especially with
> all the new changes coming in, but many of us can't break our systems
> for a11y-related reasons (and don't have an extra machine) and we've
> had trouble getting people without impairments to do testing because
> they're worried they don't really understand what they're doing. I
> figure we can't be the only distro where this issue comes up and I'm
> curious how other distros and a11y groups deal with it.
>
> Thanks!
> Penelope
> ___
> gnome-accessibility-list mailing list
> gnome-accessibility-l...@gnome.org
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list
>

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Re: Upgrading pkexec to run X11 Orca-accessible applications as root.

[Bill Cox]

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 6:43 PM, Luke Yelavich
 wrote:
> From what I remember reading in a bug on GNOME bugzilla, gksu lacks a 
> mainloop which is a contributor to the issues that we have with accessibility.
>
> There is also gksu-polkit, which at a glance, does the same thing, using 
> policykit, and is already in Ubuntu universe, and likely Debian as well. My 
> vote is that we should try gksu-polkit and see whether things are better or 
> worse, using it as a gksu replacement.
>
> Luke

Hi, Luke.  I tried out gksu-polkit.  First, it doesn't ask for a
password using a GTK dialog box, and instead seems to want it on the
command line, making it more similar to sudo.  Maybe that's because I
ran it from a gnome-terminal, but there's no .  It's also somewhat
unstable.  For example, using it to run 'ls' crashes with this
message:

bill> gksu-polkit ls

GLib-ERROR **: /build/buildd/glib2.0-2.24.1/glib/gmem.c:176: failed to
allocate 140737488355328 bytes
aborting...
Aborted

In another test, gksu-polkit hung, taking up 100% CPU cycles.  If this
code links to libgksu, my vote would be to abandon it.  The pkexec
code is only 819 lines of code, and was simple for me to understand
and trivial to modify with, IMO, fairly low risk of introducing a
major security hole.  It also has a very cool dialog box.  Reading the
policykit code leaves me with a reasonably comfortable sense of
security, while reading the gksu code makes me want to set my computer
on fire.  Anyway, that's just my not-very-informed opinion based on
some time in both programs using gdb.

In any case, I can significantly upgrade our hack in Vinux by
switching to my slightly modified pkexec.  Would that be worth
testing?

Thanks,
Bill

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Upgrading pkexec to run X11 Orca-accessible applications as root.

[Bill Cox]

I've patched pkexec which is like gksu, but uses Policy Kit for
authentication.  The patch is very simple - all I had to do is
uncomment some code the author already had in there to enable X11
applications.  It seems that the author decided that running X11
applications as root is just too much of a security hole to justify,
so he commented out the code.  As a result, Ubuntu has to rely on gksu
to run programs like Synaptic from the System/Administration menu.

gksu has problems.  It's no longer a simple sudo wrapper, and has
evolved into a multi-threaded monster of such complexity that good C
debuggers (I count myself as one) can't easily fix major problems.
gksu has a many-year outstanding bug where it hangs Gnome if
at-spi-registryd is running.  I've spent hours trying to find the bug,
as have others.  If gksu is so complex that we can't debug it, how can
we trust it?  This is very likely a security risk vs just using
pkexec.  If we already have sudo and pkexec, why do we need gksu?  Why
maintain and trust all three?

I believe the answer to why we still have gksu is that we needed a way
to run Synaptic and other X11 programs as root from Gnome menus, and
from some Python programs.  What we've done in Vinux is to replace
/usr/bin/gksu with a simple bash script that uses a zenity wrapper
around sudo.  This works around the bug where gksu locks up gnome, but
it's literally an ugly hack - the zenity dialog box looks pathetic.
Good thing the blind don't mind!  What I would like to suggest is that
Ubuntu consider moving away from gksu, and to pkexec instead, with the
simple patch to support X11 applications.  I see no reason this path
would not allow us to eventually retire gksu.  In Vinux, we could
replace /usr/bin/gksu with a wrapper to call pkexec.  My guess is that
Ubuntu would more likely start replacing calls to gksu in the menus,
Ubiquity, and other places, with calls to pkexec, and leave the gksu
package alone.

What do you think?  Is enhancing policykit to support X11 and moving
away from gksu the right direction?  I think many Orca users would
love to dump gksu.  I've attached my patch, which is compatible with
the source package use of quilt.

Thanks,
Bill
Index: policykit-1-0.96/src/programs/pkexec.c
===
--- policykit-1-0.96.orig/src/programs/pkexec.c	2010-09-12 15:28:11.451549577 -0400
+++ policykit-1-0.96/src/programs/pkexec.c	2010-09-12 15:28:21.349307917 -0400
@@ -337,6 +337,15 @@
   goto out;
 }
 }
+  else if (g_strcmp0 (key, "DESKTOP_STARTUP_ID") == 0 || g_strcmp0 (key, "XAUTHORITY") == 0 ||
+  g_strcmp0 (key, "DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS") == 0 || g_strcmp0 (key, "ORBIT_SOCKETDIR") == 0)
+{
+  if (g_strcmp0 (key, "DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS") != 0 && access (value, F_OK) != 0)
+{
+  g_printerr ("Environment variable %s points to inaccessible file %s\n", key, value);
+	  goto out;
+}
+}
   else if (strstr (value, "/") != NULL ||
strstr (value, "%") != NULL ||
strstr (value, "..") != NULL)
@@ -398,13 +407,17 @@
  *
  * and surrounding comments for a lot of discussion about this.
  */
-#if 0
+/* For Vinux, we've added this stuff back in.  The reason not to, refered to above,
+   is that cases where this works and doesn't aren't documented or even well known.
+   Therefore the policykit author decided to disable this feature, leaving us to require gksu
+   instead, which is broken in other ways, like not working at all when at-spi-registryd is
+   running. As pkexec seems better than pksu, enabling these variables is prefered to shipping
+   Ubuntu with gksu called in several places.  */
 "DESKTOP_STARTUP_ID",
 "DISPLAY",
 "XAUTHORITY",
 "DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS",
 "ORBIT_SOCKETDIR",
-#endif
 NULL
   };
   GPtrArray *saved_env;
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Re: Status of Speech Dispatcher package

[Bill Cox]

I packaged the 0.7 release of speech-dispatcher for Vinux, but it
broke compatibility with speechd-up, which is no longer maintained.
Most Vinux testers who use the testing repository rely on either
speechd-up or ospeakup, so I was forced to remove the new
speech-dispatcher package, as testers were all losing speech in their
consoles.

Alternatively, I could get speechd-up working with the latest
speech-dispatcher, but as ospeakup is maintained, and in much better
shape than the last release of speechd-up, I didn't see the point.

Bill

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Re: Orca/linux accessibility teaching material

[Bill Cox]

Hi, Eleanor.  If you are going to install the newest version of Ubuntu
on these machines, you get a pretty decent setup if you enable an
"accessible" install.  You press space at the first screen to get to a
text menu, F5 to open accessibility options, and 3 to select the Orca
screen reader.  It actually does a bunch of other stuff, too, and
makes the machine boot talking.  Default accessiblity in Ubuntu Lucid
is actually pretty good.  I'll also put in a plug for Vinux 3.0, which
is basically Ubuntu Lucid with some tweaks to make it work a bit
better with Orca, and with a console screen reader.

Bill

On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 11:57 AM, Eleanor Smyth  wrote:
> Hello!
>
> Camara (www.camara.ie) refurbishes old computers, sends them out to Africa
> and sets up learning centres. At the moment we are trying to make our Linux
> computers more accesible for students that are living with disabilities.
> After much debate, we decided to stick with the accessibity features already
> on Linux.
>
> The computers, already in Africa have various versions of Ubuntu, this means
> that Ocra functions to various degrees in the schools. We discovered that
> the speech on older versions of ocra was very fast and difficult to
> understand  So, we want to update ocra by sending out a C.D with the latest
> version of orca to the schools in Africa and update orca when refurbishing
> the computers going out.
>
> With that done, we need to train our teachers on how to update orca (for the
> computers already sent out) and write up a manual on how to use ocra within
> the classroom. This is where we'll have to call upon some help. Setting up
> the accessibity features is difficult for someone who has very basic
> computer skills.
>
> Are there any good tutorials (audio and visual) out there that we could use?
> Any additional info that we should be aware of?  All comments/material will
> be much appreciated.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Eleanor
>
>
>
> --
> Eleanor Smyth
> Disability Officer Camara
> E-mail: mainstream...@camara.ie
>
> Camara Education
> The Digital Hub, 10-13 Thomas Street, Dublin 8.
> T: 0861217893
> www.camara.ie
>
>
>
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Speakup wont compile in Ubuntu Maverick

[Bill Cox]

I was able to fix two bugs, but the third has me confused still.
First, /usr/bin/module-assistant needs to be modified to look in
/usr/src/linux-headers-/include/generated, rather than
include/linux to find utsrelease.h.  Second, three speakup files need
to include linux/slab.h to have access to kmalloc.  These files are
i18n.c, kobjects.c, and selection.c.  This let's speakup compile.
However, speakup.ko doesn't work because the Maverick kernel does not
provide the k_handle function.

Does anyone know how to enable the k_handle function in the Linux kernel?

Bill

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Call for C++ coders make Orca work better with Firefox

[Bill Cox]

If there are C++ coders on this list who hate the problems when using
Orca with Firefox, please consider joining my Firefox debugging team.
We have many bugs to track down, and by myself, it will take many
months.  Together, I bet we could fix Firefox in weeks.

Feel free to reply to this post, or to me personally.

Thanks,
Bill

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Re: [orca-list] OpenTTS 0.1 released.

[Bill Cox]

I'll throw out my preferred solution, though as I often state, my
opinion on this matter doesn't count.  Hynek, as the original author
and maintainer, you have as much or more to contribute than anyone
else.  Why not join the OpenTTS team?  The system they've set up seems
to be working very well, and progress has accelerated greatly.  It
would be even better with you on the team, and it would eliminate
duplication of effort.

Just my $0.01

Bill

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Anyone know how to activate iaccessible2 interface to Qt apps?

[Bill Cox]

I saw a demo of a calculator showing it's accessible objects through
dbus from 2007.  I also see that the code to present iaccessible2
objects is in the Qt source code.  Anyone know how to turn it on?

Thanks,
Bill

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Re: [OFF-TOPIC] Re: ideological speed bumps

[Bill Cox]

I'm also following this thread.  I had to program by voice for three
years in the '90s, first with Dragon Dictate, and then with Naturally
Speaking.  I eventually wrote 1,600 voice macros mostly to control
emacs to help me do my job.

When I started with Dragon Dictate, I was excited about the rapid
progress for the disabled.  Dragon Systems was doing wonderful things
for us.  Then, Dragon Systems shipped a tool for voice-dictation aimed
at regular users.  Progress stopped, almost dead right then, and never
picked up again.

I want to add voice recognition solutions to Vinux, which is built on
Ubuntu Lucid.  However, Naturally Speaking remains the best voice
recognition engine, and there's little reason to believe the recent
owners, Nuance, will port it.  Nuance also bought Eloquence, the best
TTS engine for the blind, IMO, since it can be well understood at very
high speeds.  Eloquence use to run on Linux, but there is no evidence
that Nuance will release any new version for our platform.

Modern open-source research and advancement is somewhat promising.
Espeak seems to get better each year, though it's far behind Eloquence
for high speed.  Then there's svox pico around the corner from Google,
which may help bring open-source natural voices along.  On the
recognition side, there's some advancement, but I have yet to see any
good FOSS demo on Linux.

One dumb thought I had this morning: Could we just call the original
developers and ask for their help as consultants on FOSS ASR and TTS?
They must be long gone from their companies, and I imagine that their
non-competes have expired.  What really counts is the know-how.  If
they could consult on algorithm specification and development, without
giving up any trade-secrets, they wouldn't have to write one line of
code.  I'd be we'd find FOSS devs willing to code it up.

Bill

On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 9:51 AM, Pia  wrote:
> I just wanted to ask that you guys not take this topic off list.  It was
> one of the most seriously useful conversations that has been on here for a
> long time, because it looks at the future of a barely functional state of
> things which is really what we all should be concerned about.  So, I have
> been reading the thread closely.  I just have not added much yet, because
> I would just be repeating much of what has already be said at this point.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Pia
>
>
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Fix to ibmtts.c for Ubuntu Lucid x64

[Bill Cox]

I've figured out how to make voxin work on Ubuntu Lucid x64.  I don't
understand why the fix works, but here it is:  Just delete the "DBG"
statement from the module_audio_init function in src/modules/ibmtts.c
in the speech-dispatcher package.  Recompile speech-dispatcher on a 32
bit machine, with voxin already installed, and it will create a new
sd_ibmtts file that works in Lucid x64.  Copy that to your 64-bit
machine at /usr/lib/speech-dispatcher-modules/sd_ibmtts.  I've
attached the diff file, which is a one line delete.

I don't understand why this make sd_ibmtts work on Lucid x64.  I did
read that ctime is not thread safe, and that may have something to do
with it.  It may also be interacting with an odd optimization bug.
More likely, something else is trashing a bit of memory.  To cause the
bug to occur, you only need three lines from the DBG macro at the top
of module_audio_init:

  if (Debug){
time_t t = time(NULL);
ctime(&t));
  }

Bill
--- ibmtts.c.orig	2010-05-10 05:43:10.242891398 -0400
+++ ibmtts.c	2010-05-10 06:11:53.702991156 -0400
@@ -528,7 +528,6 @@
 
 int
 module_audio_init(char **status_info){
-  DBG("Opening audio");
   return module_audio_init_spd(status_info);
 }
 
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Accessibility improved in Synaptic

[Bill Cox]

I've patched gtk+ to allow programmers to easily add descriptions to
images.  This is probably useful in many places, but I decided to
start with Synaptic.  Users can now hear the status of a package read
to them, not just "icon".  Remember to right-click on package items
with Orca+8 to get the package menu.

I've filed a bug at bugzilla.gnome.org on this, and submitted a patch:

https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=617629

Without this patch or something like it, it is not possible for
programmers to add accessible descriptions to icons in a tree view,
which is also used for lists of items with check boxes.  Should I file
a bug at launchpad.net also?  Vinux users can test the new synaptic
version if they add the Vinux/Ubuntu Lucid Testing PPA.

Bill

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Re: upgrading to lucid

[Bill Cox]

I always ran

$ sudo apt-get dist-upgrade

But I've had trouble most times with this.  More often than not, I
have not been able to boot my machine into Gnome after a dist-upgrade
from a full release back.  However, I hack my system pretty heavily,
so my experience is probably not the norm.  If you're running a recent
Lucid Beta or release candidate, it will probably work.  Be sure to do
a full backup before the upgrade, and be prepared to do a full
reinstall if things don't work out.

Bill

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 7:46 AM,   wrote:
> greetings,
> I did some more research on how to update ubuntu distributions from the
> command line.  The two options appear to be:
>
> (1) sudo update-manager
>
> (2) sudo do-release-upgrade -m desktop
>
> method 1 would just launch the graphical application from the command line
> (gnome-terminal) and in general is the recommended distribution upgrade
> method from the ubuntu wiki.  I can't find much doccumentation on
> do-release-upgrade, are there any drastic differences btween what these two
> programs do?
>
> Does anyone have any advice on which is the better (faster? more
> accessible?) method for updateing my Ubuntu system to lucid?
>
> Thanks:-)
>
>
> 
> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
> Get started.
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Re: Speech Dispatcher 0.7 Beta -- Please help with testing

[Bill Cox]

I like the socket approach, but I guess your concern may be why Luke
was thinking of using dbus.  Still, a denial of service that requires
users already be logged into the machine is a far smaller security
hole.  Right now, a clever hacker could most likely find a way to
cause one of the less well maintained speech-dispatcher subsystems to
execute arbitrary code, remotely though a wide-open TCP port.  I think
a switch to file sockets is a sensible short-term fix.  One of my
favorite tricks to play on blind guys I'm supporting in Vinux is to
start talking to them through the speech-dispatcher TCP port.  If you
ever let me into a machine on your network, don't be surprised when
your machines running Orca start saying the strangest things!

Bill

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 7:07 PM, Samuel Thibault
 wrote:
> trev.saund...@gmail.com, le Tue 27 Apr 2010 14:30:39 -0400, a écrit :
>> THere is a rather large local security problem with your use of unix 
>> sockets.  It is very easy for a local hostile user to cause a denial of 
>> service, because you put the unix sockets in a world readable place with 
>> *very* predictable names.  They are so predictable because a the only thing 
>> that the attacker has to gues is the UID of the user, and because UID's for 
>> standard users start at 1000, and are assigned in order, the attacker would 
>> only have to create say 100 files, wich with a simple shell script is 
>> trivial.
>
> That's actually not really new, compared to the previous TCP/IP
> approach.
>
> The place (or port number) has to be well-known for applications to be
> able to connect to it anyway, so any security layer needs to be added
> after connection.
>
> Samuel
>
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Firefox daily build broken

[Bill Cox]

Firefox 3.6 is not very accessible.  I may have to down-grade to
Firefox 3.5 for the Vinux 3.0 release based on Lucid, but I'd rather
have all our users testing the newer firefox code.  I've compiled and
installed code directly from Mozilla's mercurial repository for 3.7
(Minefield), and it works well.  I'm writing this e-mail at gmail.com
with this browser.  However, last night's build from the Mozilla Team
PPA locks up whenever I go to gmail.com.  I've also think that the
problem is due to the patches applied by Ubuntu, though when I build
from the Mozilla source, I did a debug build, so they are different.

Where would the right place be to send an e-mail or file a bug against
Ubuntu's Mozilla team's daily build of Firefox 3.7?

Thanks,
Bill

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Re: Announcing the OpenTTS project, a fork of speech-dispatcher

[Bill Cox]

Hi, Tomas.  Everyone is are very pleased with Brailcom's work on
speech-dispatcher, but as Brailcom's contract ran out, Brailcom
necessarily moved on to new projects.  Now, I for one support Brailcom
getting more contracts to do more work, and if that happens, we may
want to look at merging OpenTTS back into speech-dispatcher.  Even
better might be if Brailcom could get a contract to move forward with
it's next-generation replacement for speech-dispatcher.  It is clear
that the volunteers have enough bandwidth to move speech-dispatcher
forward, yet not enough to complete the new project to replace it.
Luke has very generously offering to move OpenTTS forward in his free
time, and as a pragmatic solution, it makes sense to let him.Since
the fork, development has accelerated several-fold, which I think we
all agree is a good thing, but it's still nowhere near what it would
be if a couple of full time developers could be assigned to the
project.  In short, whoever has the ability to put in the hard work to
move forward most effectively should lead.  So, please consider this a
"friendly" fork, focused on the good of the community.  If Brailcom
needs some voices of support for new contracts, I think you can count
on us, as everyone here seems to be a fan of Brailcom and the
excellent work they've done.  In fact, if there is any specific action
you could recommend that I can take to help Brailcom close new
business, please let me know.

Best regards,
Bill

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 3:10 AM, Tomas Cerha  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> just my few personal thoughts...
>
> While I respect anyone's freedom to take on the work that we started and 
> continue in a
> direction he believes is the best, I am not quite convinced that making a 
> fork is
> necessary and helpful.
>
> The announcement started by a question "Why Fork Speech Dispatcher and Related
> Projects?", but I can't find anything that would answer the question for me 
> even if I
> pretty much agree with all what was written below.  It is true, that GPL 
> grants the
> freedom to do it, that the importance of Speech Dispatcher grew over the time 
> and that
> the non-profit organization Brailcom didn't find resources to finance the 
> development in
> the last two years.  But I fail to find a convincing reason in these facts.
>
> Brailcom has always officially supported the work done by Luke Yelavich and 
> others.  We
> linked Luke's git from the official Speech Dispatcher web page and we were 
> trying to
> promote this work where possible.  We also put at least some minimal effort 
> into
> reviewing how the development continues and plan to make an official release 
> (yes,
> without being able to promise the exact date) and we constantly put 
> significant effort
> in attempts to find resources for continuation of the work and we believe we 
> will
> succeed (though, as we announced, we can not promise anything, as it does not 
> depend on
> our decision).
>
> I am just afraid, that having two projects with two names and different 
> directions will
> not be really practical.  What particularly is the key problem in the current 
> model
> where the actual development takes place in Luke's git repo?  I don't say it 
> is ideal,
> but maybe there is less to do to make it better, then making a fork and 
> renaming...
>
> Best regards,
>
> Tomas Cerha
>
> ___
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> spee...@lists.freebsoft.org
> http://lists.freebsoft.org/mailman/listinfo/speechd
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Re: April 13, 2010 Meeting Logs (forgot links)

[Bill Cox]

I was asked to post my current gksu script to this thread, so here it is.

There are two scripts, one to deal with some gksu options, which are
translated into sudo options, and another to open the dialog box and
ask for the password.  Both of these should probably be rewritten as
Python wrappers, and the dialog box that pops up should be enhanced to
look like the gksu dialog.

I find that with this change, I don't have issues with
at-spi-registryd anymore.  Most importantly, it enables the ubiquity
installer to run reliably with Orca.

I've created a Debian package for it, which is available through the
Vinux/Lucid PPA.  I have it directly overwrite /usr/bin/gksu, which is
a hack.  The down-side is that if you uninstall the package, you're
left with no gksu executable at all.

Bill


gksu
Description: Binary data


askpass
Description: Binary data
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Re: April 13, 2010 Meeting Logs (forgot links)

[Bill Cox]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 4:28 PM, Francesco Fumanti
 wrote:
> As far as I understand, the ideal solution at least from the point of view
> of a mouse only user, would probably be to enhance the applications that
> need root privileges to directly use policykit to get root privileges when
> they needed it. (instead of running as root all the time through gksu)
>
> At some point, I hoped to be able to replace gksu with gksu-polkit (as a
> workaround by replacing gksu with gksu-polkit in the desktop file of the
> Synaptic Package Manager, Gparted,...); but unfortunately, gksu-polkit is
> not working properly in Ubuntu. What do you think about gksu-polkit?

Initially, I just replaced calls to gksu with calls to a simple sudo
wrapper script, which I called runsu.  However, there are multiple
tools in the system that call gksu directly, and I found I got better
results by replacing gksu with the wrapper script around sudo.  For
example, Ubiquity, the Ubuntu installer, crashes about half the time
for blind users, because /usr/bin/ubiquity calls gksu to launch the
real application, or at least it did in Beta 1.

I agree that policy kit in theory is a superior solution, if it works
with Orca, but for all the legacy apps that don't yet use it, I prefer
a sudo wrapper to gksu.  The other choice is to just fix gksu, but I
don't understand why we've got such a complex tool that in the end
should just be calling sudo.

If there is any realistic interest in a Python wrapper around sudo to
replace gksu, I'll bump up it's priority on my to-do list.

Bill

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Re: April 13, 2010 Meeting Logs

[Bill Cox]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 3:33 PM, Francesco Fumanti
 wrote:
> Due to incompatibility of at-spi with gksu, I wonder whether it would make 
> sense to create a goal for lucid+1 to eliminate gksu from the distribution. 
> This would at least remove part of the bugs caused by at-spi until at-spi2 
> takes over. For example, when starting the Synaptic Package Manager from the 
> Administration menu while an application is actively using at-spi, the 
> desktop becomes unresponsive. Some weeks ago, I started a thread about it on 
> the devel discussion list:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2010-March/010770.html

In general, I think it is difficult to properly maintain both gksu and
sudo independently.  It's hard enough to keep sudo working with Orca,
and gksu has not worked with Orca since I've been involved.  My
preference, not just for accessibility, but also for security, is to
just have sudo, and make gksu a simple GDK wrapper for sudo.  For
Vinux, I wrote a simple wrapper script using zenity to replace gksu,
and it seems to be working well.  However, it's not good enough for
distributions for sighted users.  I was thinking of trying to write a
better sudo wrapper in Python, so we could support all of the gksu
options.  I also looked into the gksu source code, but I have to admit
getting frustrated at the complexity, and ending up thinking gksu
should have stayed as a simple wrapper.

Bill

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Re: Just joined, how can I help?

[Bill Cox]

Hi, Lesley.  There's tons of work to do if you want to dive in and get
your hands dirty, especially down in the code.  Let me know if you're
able to fix bugs in C, C++, or Python, as that's where a lot of issues
are.  There's also a need for writers to make tutorials and such.

I do my contributions over in the Vinux distro, which lately is being
built on Ubuntu Lucid.  My thought is that we can patch and user-test
code over there, and when we have something that works reliably, we
can try and get Ubuntu to pick it up.

Regards,
Bill

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Re: April 13, 2010 Meeting Logs

[Bill Cox]

Thanks for the log.  I agree 100% with Luke's goals for the next
release.  If it will help, we can do some early user-testing in Vinux
alpha/beta releases based on the next Ubuntu release.

I'll throw in two more wishes for the next release.  First, can we
bind starting Orca to Control+Alt+o, and have it work both at the gdm
screen and while logged in?  That way, blind users would be able to
start Orca on a public Ubuntu machine.  Second, would it be possible
for Control+Alt+o to bring up Orca on the first screen of the Live CD
installer, where we ask the user for his language preference?  Now
that this is a Gnome dialog, it may be possible.  I'm willing to try
and get this working if it's just a manpower issue.

I think with Lucid Ubuntu has matched the best of the major Linux
distros in terms of a11y, but with the changes proposed by Luke, it
will have a clear lead.  Kudos to Luke and the rest of the a11y team
for an outstanding job on Lucid!

Bill

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 7:07 AM, Penelope Stowe  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> For all of you who missed the meeting, the full logs are now up on
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingLogs/20100413
>
> I'll get minutes and other notes out later today.
>
>
> Penelope
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Re: [orca-list] Announcing the OpenTTS project, a fork of speech-dispatcher

[Bill Cox]

Luke is project lead, though I believe a couple of others may also
have authority to commit changes.  However, Luke has to date worked to
form consensus on the opentts-dev mailing list before making
significant changes.  Progress in the last several weeks has been
truly outstanding, and I for one am happy that opentts is in good
hands, and that I probably wont have to go digging into this code
anymore :-)

Bill

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 1:09 AM, A  wrote:
> Who's project lead or is there a committee? Sorry but it is not
> obvious from the announcement who's having the final word on
> decisions.
>
> Thanks.
>
> On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 4:07 AM, Luke Yelavich  wrote:
>> I am writing to announce a fork of speech-dispatcher, the open source 
>> text-to-speech framework, initially developed by Brailcom as a part of the 
>> freebsoft project, http://www.freebsoft.org. The fork also includes other 
>> important components of the speech stack, including speechd-up, the 
>> connector between speakup and speech-dispatcher, and the speech-dispatcher 
>> java bindings. As you may have guessed from the subject, the fork is now 
>> called OpenTTS. OpenTTS refers to both the speech server, API and 
>> documentation, as well as the umbrella project as a whole. The other 
>> projects mentioned above have also been given new names, speechd-up is now 
>> known as OSpeakup, and speechd-java is now known as OpenTTS-java.
>>
>> Why Fork Speech Dispatcher and Related Projects?
>>
>> One of the fundamental freedoms granted by the GPL is the freedom to publish 
>> one's modifications to the source code of a software product.  Sometimes, 
>> such publication takes the form of a fork, in which the modified product is 
>> developed separately from the original. In this case, we've chosen to make 
>> forks of software initially produced by the Brailcom group. We'll describe 
>> our reasons for doing that below.
>>
>> The Brailcom group had a great idea.  They wanted to provide a system or 
>> user-level service to control synthetic speech.  That was Speech Dispatcher. 
>> They created libraries to ease the task of communicating with that service, 
>> so that it would be possible for programmers to speech-enable their 
>> applications , simply by calling output functions provided by one of these 
>> libraries.  For several years, Brailcom actively maintained and promoted 
>> Speech Dispatcher and the software associated with it. They innovated, and 
>> the community at large was slow to adopt.
>>
>> Over time, projects within the accessibility community began to embrace 
>> Speech Dispatcher.  It is now the preferred speech synthesis backend of the 
>> Orca screenreader. The Speakup screenreader can control many software-based 
>> text-to-speech engines with the help of Speech Dispatcher and a small 
>> connector program. One advantage of that strategy is that Orca and Speakup 
>> can cooperatively use the same text-to-speech engine.  The key point is that 
>> many projects have adopted Speech Dispatcher, to a greater or lesser extent.
>>
>> As time passed, the tables turned. The most recent official release of 
>> Speech Dispatcher was made in the summer of 2008.  The developers began 
>> taking less and less of a role in the project.  The source code moved from a 
>> CVS repository to git in 2009.  During much of that year, active development 
>> took place in a repository hosted by Luke Yelavich.  Mr. Yelavich even 
>> produced several unofficial "release candidate" versions of Speech 
>> Dispatcher. Unfortunately, the official release process is stalled. In an 
>> effort to clarify the current status of the software, members of the 
>> community contacted Brailcom. Replies to these requests for information were 
>> somewhat non-committal.  In effect, Brailcom stated that they were 
>> interested in developing Speech Dispatcher, but they had no current plans.
>>
>> That, in short, is why we forked.  Members of the open-source accessibility 
>> community need and want an actively-developed speech framework. The OpenTTS 
>> project hopes to fulfill that need by carrying forward the vision set forth 
>> by Brailcom.
>>
>> The OpenTTS.org website is now live, although there is not much there at the 
>> moment. The site will be expanded in the near future to add areas for 
>> documentation, and feature specification tracking, to help developers better 
>> outline and indicate what the next release of OpenTTS will contain. You will 
>> also find a link to our mailing lists, where you can discuss OpenTTS 
>> development.
>>
>> We welcome all contributors from the community who wish to help us further 
>> develope the OpenTTS framework, and encourage any interested contributors to 
>> join the opentts-dev mailing list. To get more information on this list, or 
>> other lists relating to OpenTTS, please go to http://lists.opentts.org. We 
>> also especially welcome any Brailcom staff who wish to contribute to the 
>> project.
>>
>> I plan to a

Re: Accessible mail clients

[Bill Cox]

I think I've read more positive comments about Thunderbird than anything else.

Bill

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:47 PM, David Sexton  wrote:
> I am really getting fedup with evolution, which other mail clients are
> accessible with orca?
>
> David
>
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Re: I think I fixed Firefox

[Bill Cox]

Thanks, Luke.  I will file a bug in launchpad.  Unfortunately, while
my patch fixes the worst structural navigation problems, there are
still major issues.  The Bookmarks dialog becomes inaccessible, and
there are some other more minor navigation goobers.  I think I'll need
to dive into the code in more depth.

Bill

On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 8:37 PM, Luke Yelavich  wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 03, 2010 at 07:11:35AM EST, Bill Cox wrote:
>> I've tracked down the structural navigation issue with Firefox and
>> Orca, and submitted a patch to the Mozilla guys.  I would like to go
>> ahead and patch firefox and make it available through the Vinux PPA,
>> so Vinux users can start testing it.  Hopefully there aren't any more
>> bugs in Orca navigation, and hopefully I haven't created any new ones!
>>  I'm keeping my fingers crossed.  If it works out ok, I'd love to see
>> Ubuntu Lucid's firefox get fixed as well.  The bug report is at:
>
> If you would like to see this addressed in Ubuntu, please file a bug against 
> the firefox package in Launchpad.
>
> Luke
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Re: Accessibility Meeting

[Bill Cox]

So long as we'er putting ideas out there, I would like to bring up the
possibility of using Vinux as a testing ground for accessibility.  One of my
goals in working with Vinux is to feed new technologies into ubuntu once
debugged and proven.  Bill

On Apr 5, 2010 12:38 PM, "Laura Czajkowski"  wrote:

On 05/04/10 17:24, Penelope Stowe wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 2:34 AM, Glen Darbyhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/czajkowski
http://www.lczajkowski.com
Skype: lauraczajkowski





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Firefox patch, testing and further work

[Bill Cox]

I've uploaded a version of Firefox to the Vinux/Ubuntu Lucid PPA.
Anyone testing Vinux 3.0 Beta should run 'sudo apt-get update; sudo
apt-get upgrade'.  This should install the patched version of firefox
for testing with Orca.

Unfortunately, there are still some navigation issues with Orca.  I
find it works a bit better with "Grab focus on objects" disabled in
the Firefox settings.  If someone more familiar with Orca could look
into the problems on the Python end, I'll support them on the Firefox
C++ end.  One example of a navigation goober is using Control+Tab to
switch to another tab.  Orca remains on the previous tab, and
navigation keys just read old tab.  Users more familiar with Orca than
me could probably find more issues.

Thanks,
Bill

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I think I fixed Firefox

[Bill Cox]

I've tracked down the structural navigation issue with Firefox and
Orca, and submitted a patch to the Mozilla guys.  I would like to go
ahead and patch firefox and make it available through the Vinux PPA,
so Vinux users can start testing it.  Hopefully there aren't any more
bugs in Orca navigation, and hopefully I haven't created any new ones!
 I'm keeping my fingers crossed.  If it works out ok, I'd love to see
Ubuntu Lucid's firefox get fixed as well.  The bug report is at:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/process_bug.cgi

Bill

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Re: [orca-list] lucid and login

[Bill Cox]

Yes, you can get around the gksu problem.  In a terminal, run:

sudo /usr/lib/ubiquity/bin/ubiquity

Don't run the script in /usr/bin/ubiquity.  That's the script that
calls gksu.  In Vinux, we patch this script to use sudo.

Bill

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Dave Hunt  wrote:
> Hi Bill!
>
> Can one work around the gksu problem by starting ubiquity in a terminal, with 
> 'sudo'?
>
>
> On Apr 1, 2010, at 2:39 PM, Bill Cox wrote:
>
>> You need to enable orca at the boot screen using this special magic sequence:
>> So, in summary:
>>
>> space every 3-4 seconds for 30 seconds, then F5, 3, and enter twice.
>>
>> If you do this, Orca should come up talking.  However, there's still
>> some bugs in gksu, which is used by ubiquity.  If you install this on
>> your hard drive, installation may stop talking half way through.  If
>> this happens, reboot and try again from the beginning.
>>
>> Bill
>
> ___
> Orca-list mailing list
> orca-l...@gnome.org
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
> The manual is at 
> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
> The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> Netiquette Guidelines are at 
> http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/NetiquetteGuidelines
> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org
> Find out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
>

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Re: accessible login

[Bill Cox]

I prefer to set this option as a global default value.  That, when
users update their system and gdm is upgraded, they still have a
talking login.  The command I use is:

gconftool-2 --direct --config-source
xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.defaults -s -t bool
/desktop/gnome/applications/at/screen_reader_enabled true

That should fix the problem long-term.

Bill

2010/3/29 José Vilmar Estácio de Souza :
> Hi,
> On 03/29/2010 08:44 AM, Hammer Attila wrote:
>> Hy Jose,
>>
>> What result shows following command in gnome-terminal with your system?
>> sudo -u gdm gconftool-2 -g /desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility
>> /desktop/gnome/applications/at/screen_reader_enabled
>> This command need write with one line.
>>
> The result returned is false.
>
>> If any get back result is false, need you do following command:
>> sudo -u gdm gconftool-2 -s -t bool
>> /desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility true
>> /desktop/gnome/applications/at/screen_reader_enabled true
>> This command need write with one line in gnome-terminal.
>> After this command, try restart your system.
>> Works after this step this feature with you? My machine accessible login
>> is working perfect now.
>> I'll try later, as soon I arrive at home.
>>
> Thanks.
>
>
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Fix to ubiquity

[Bill Cox]

When installing with screen reader enabled, ubiquity stops talking
about half the time, which is very frustrating for blind users.  I've
been able to get it to work reliably, with only two edits.

First in /usr/bin/ubiquity, change the call from gksu to sudo:

toexec = ['gksudo', '--preserve-env']
if desktop:
toexec.extend(['--desktop', desktop])
toexec.append('--')

Should be just:

toexec = ['sudo', '-E']

The second thing is more minor.  If you select a large font, and
install in a VirtualBox machine, with an 800x600 display, then ubquity
hangs when the partitioner screen starts.  This is caused by a
one-line bug in /usr/lib/ubiquity/ubiquity/frontend/gtk_ui.py.  Just
comment out line 554, the last line of win_size_req:

widget.resize(w, h)

should be:

#widget.resize(w, h)

Bill

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Re: Speakup doesn't speak when I log into a text console

[Bill Cox]

This is most likely an issue with pulseaudio.  I run pulseaudio in
system-wide mode, which tends to get rid of such problems.

Bill

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 2:42 AM, John Robinson  wrote:
> Hi everyone.  I've recently upgraded to the latest version of Lucid but
> am having some problems with Speakup used with Espeakup.  Speakup speaks
> fine while I'm logging into a text console, but stops speaking
> altogether as soon as I have logged in.  It speaks fine as soon as I log
> out again.  This happens irrespective of which console I try to log
> into.  I've never seen this behaviour before and would very much
> appreciate any suggestions as to how to fix this problem.
>
> Many thanks in advance for any help.
>
> John Robinson
>
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Re: problems with the lucid live cd

[Bill Cox]

The new boot sequence on the Lucid Live CD is very cool, if you're not
blind.  Instead of bringing up console based text to ask your language
whether you want to install or just try Ubuntu, it boots directly into
a gnome session where it asks the same questions in a nice graphical
form with a pretty background image.  However, accessibility options
have not yet been ported from the initial console screen to the new
graphical form.  Instead, for a few seconds during boot, a graphic is
displayed on the screen that indicates you need to press a key to
access accessibility options.  If you press a key while this graphic
is displayed, it takes you to the old boot menu, where you can do the
old sequence to get Orca talking.

Bill

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 5:58 AM, E.J. Zufelt  wrote:
> On 2010-03-11, at 5:53 AM, Bill Cox wrote:
>
>> The magic key sequence to bring up Orca in a Live CD boot of Lucid is
>> now: "Press space every 3-4 seconds, several times, then enter, then
>> F5, then 3, then enter twice".  That seems a bit extreme to me.
>> Couldn't we simplify that?
>
> * Do you know what the purpose of the space bar at the beginning of this 
> sequence is?  Just curious more than anything else.  And, thank you for 
> sending this message out to the list.
>
> Thanks,
> Everett
>
>

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Re: problems with the lucid live cd

[Bill Cox]

The magic key sequence to bring up Orca in a Live CD boot of Lucid is
now: "Press space every 3-4 seconds, several times, then enter, then
F5, then 3, then enter twice".  That seems a bit extreme to me.
Couldn't we simplify that?  For example, "wait for the beep, then
press F5" would be a lot nicer.  The new Ubuntu Live CDs boot into a
Gnome screen to ask the language and give the user boot options
(install or try ubuntu).  It seems to me that would be a good place to
play a boot sound and to enable function keys as accessibility
shortcuts.  For example, pressing F5 could directly start Orca.

Just my $0.02.

Bill

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:50 AM, Halim Sahin  wrote:
> hi,
> Hmm yes the beepers are controlled by the hda codec after the driver is
> loaded during boot.
> But the speaker works in an early boot process before loading the sound
> drivers as well.
> There are only few machines without a real speaker but most have!
>
> @Luke: Is there a way to add the beep in luccid?
> Afaik grub 2 supports it (read in other ml).
> BR.
> Halim
>
>
>
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Re: problems with the lucid live cd

[Bill Cox]

There seems to be new timing involved in getting accessibility working
in the latest ISO.  It takes several seconds to boot to the first
screen, but you only have a few seconds once you reach it to press any
key.  There is an image at the bottom that says in effect "Keyboard =
accessibility".

Try pressing the space bar every 3 or 4 seconds for about 30 seconds
on power up, and then press F5, 3, and enter, as usual.

Bill

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Guy Schlosser  wrote:
> I can confirm this as a problem. I downloaded the live CD yesterday, and
> had the exact same problem as described. I was also told about fuzzy
> video, but that could've been with the video card on the computer I was
> working with, so not concerned about that one as of yet.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Guy
>
>
> On 03/08/2010 07:08 PM, Mike Coulombe wrote:
>> Hi, I downloaded the live cd today and found that aparently axcessibility 
>> isn't being enabled.
>>     I pressed enter once, then f5 and 3. Then enter twice. After the system 
>> boots, orca doesn't start. I can start it, and it does go through the setup 
>> with speech. But when I log in again, Orca doesn't work.
>> Mike.
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: Lucid update broke accessibility

[Bill Cox]

So, I did another apt-get update, and apt-get upgrade, and rebooted,
and now speech is working again!  Robert, can you give this a gry?

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Samuel Thibault
 wrote:
> Bill Cox, le Thu 04 Mar 2010 10:03:27 -0500, a écrit :
>> Anyone have any ideas what's going on?  Shall I file a
>> bug report on bugs.launchpad.net?
>
> Unless somebody speaks within a day, report a bug. Better report bugs
> several times and they will be merged, than risk not reporting the bug
> at all.
>
> Samuel
>

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Re: Lucid update broke accessibility

[Bill Cox]

I'm seeing this behavior in Vinux 3.0 alpha 3, based on the latest
Lucid alpha.  I upgraded this morning and the login window stopped
speaking.  To fix it, run the attached script.

I'm also not hearing any menus being read in Orca, and the application
switcher is also not talking.  This is true for both metacity and
compiz.

I think this just jumped to the highest priority accessibility bug
spot in Lucid!  Anyone have any ideas what's going on?  Shall I file a
bug report on bugs.launchpad.net?

Bill

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Robert Murray  wrote:
> Hi
>
> I just upgraded my Lucid system, and it is no longer accessible with orca.  
> Is this a known bug? if not, where should I start to try and find out what is 
> going on?
>
> The accessible login has stopped working. I don't get any speech from orca at 
> the gdm login screen.
>
> Once logged in, the gnome panels, menus, run dialog and desktop are 
> inaccessible.  Orca does not say inaccessible, there is just no speech.  The 
> orca window and gnome-terminal work fine though.
>
> Everything was working quite well until yesterday.
>
> Best regards
>
> Robbie
>
>
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GDM keeps losing Orca speech

[Bill Cox]

I installed Lucid 3 days ago, with Orca enabled (option F5, and item 3
in the first install window).  Orca comes up reading the gdm login
window just fine.  However, yesterday, I did an "sudo apt-get update;
sudo apt-get upgrade", and gdm lost it's configuration and stopped
talking.  I found the magic commands to get it working again in Luke's
30accessibility scripts in casper.  They are:

sudo -u gdm gconftool-2 -s -t bool /desktop/gnome/interface/accessibility true
sudo -u gdm gconftool-2 -s -t bool
/desktop/gnome/applications/at/visual/startup true
sudo -u gdm gconftool-2 -s -t string
/desktop/gnome/applications/at/visual/exec orca
sudo -u gdm gconftool-2 -s -t bool
/desktop/gnome/applications/at/screen_reader_enabled true

Gdm was somewhat broken 3 days ago, so I wasn't too worried that it's
config was lost when I upgraded.  However, today I upgraded again, and
gdm stopped talking again, and I had to re-execute the commands above
to fix it.  Is this a long-term problem that blind users will keep
running into?

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Re: Sound issues 10.04

[Bill Cox]

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 7:47 PM, Luke Yelavich  wrote:
> You could consider piping the audio to a file and playing it in the native 
> linux environment, but what would be better is if opensapi could use 
> speech-dispatcher's audio output routines. I am not sure what language 
> opensapi is written in, but if its c, then you just need to link against 
> libspdaudio somehow, however header files for doing so are not provided in 
> the speech-dispatcher packages, only the source. This is something I intend 
> to address.

Actually, I am hoping to write a speech-dispatcher back-end module for
opensapi.  That hopefully would allow the opensapi voices to show up
in Orca.  However, I probably can't get to this for a few months.

Bill

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Switching to stable yelp

[Bill Cox]

The gnome maintainers do not recommend switching to the unstable yelp branch
and instead recommend the stable version which is still accessible.  They
will only switch when webkit becomes accessible.  I'll update the bug report
but its been marked low priority.

Bill
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Re: Web Browsing

[Bill Cox]

For Ubuntu, it's best to use the Orca screen reader with Firefox to
see if your web page is accessible, since that's how most users do it.
 You can start it from the command line with 'orca'.  However, there
are some current bugs in Orca related to changes in Firefox 3.6, which
are being worked on actively.

Bill

On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Phill Whiteside  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> a couple of questions ..
>
> 1) Is Fire Vox now un-supported (I cannot find anything for 3.6 and 3.7 is
> in release candidate testing) ?
>
> 1a) If no longer supported, is there a Web Reader available that I can use
> to check to see if my understanding of the various 'standards' actually
> works ?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Phill.
>
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Rant about accessibility testing

[Bill Cox]

Two key pieces of accessibility software in Gnome used to be
accessible, but are no longer in Lucid - Yelp and the Ubuntu Software
Center.  Ubuntu does a terrific job in general insuring packages are
functional and not buggy before allowing them into the distro.  There
must be some check-list for accepting packages at Ubuntu.  Why is
accessibility not on this list?  Isn't this simply a matter of adding
one extra item to the list of tasks for a package to be accepted?

Ubuntu is in a unique position to improve lives for the disabled.
Simply by raising their standards, Ubuntu can raise the standards
throughout the FOSS community.  I am amazed that Ubuntu has not taken
this simple step.  Is there any good reason?

Bill

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Re: How to make Yelp accessible?

[Bill Cox]

Hi, Attila.  I'll do as you suggest, and have a gecko based version of
Yelp for Vinux, until webkit becomes accessible.

Bill

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Hammer Attila  wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> Bill, I tryed your ydea, because yesterday I read your purposes with
> Vinux mailing list.
>
> If actual Yelp version is not accessible before final release, my
> openion need do a separate package with containing oldest 2.28.0 Yelp
> version, with using Gecko.
> I replace Lucid webkit Yelp version without any problem. I downloaded
> Yelp source code with my wife Karmic system, and rebuilded the Yelp
> package with my Lucid system without any errors.
> Yelp is wonderful working with Orca again when I install new package.
>
> But, I think the developers is does'nt do this (for example creating a
> yelp-gecko package with Karmic Yelp source code), but Vinux is handle
> this problem with a PPA version wonderful.
>
> Not an elegant method, but working.
> Luke, what your openion?
>
> Attila
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Speakup is now in Debian kernel package

[Bill Cox]

Which is nice!  Today, anyone in Ubuntu using speakup has to type 'm-a
a-i -f speakup-source' whenver the kernel is upgraded.  I understand
it's too late to get it into Lucid, but I'll put in a vote for getting
it in whenever possible!

Bill

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How to make Yelp accessible?

[Bill Cox]

Yelp in Ubuntu Lucid is currently not accessible by Orca.  Is there
any plan to get this working for the final Lucid release?  If not,
what would you recomend for Vinux/Lucid?  I could down-grade yelp to
an older accessible version, or try to help get the new version
working with Orca.  The downgrade is easy, but I'm unfamiliar with the
yelp code, so upgrading it would be hard for me.

Bill

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Making Ubuntu Software Center accessible

[Bill Cox]

Since Karmic, Ubuntu has not had a decent accessible software
installer.  Since Ubuntu has gone with a new "Ubuntu Software Center",
it may make sense to work on making that accessible.  Is this already
in the works?  Is that the right place to put effort, or should we
have blind users install the old gnome-app-installer?

Bill

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Re: Donations to Ubuntu accessibility

[Bill Cox]

Hi, Storm.  Personally, I think you should save your money for beer, and
continue contributing as you have - with your time.

What we really need is at least another full time person at Canonical
working full-time on accessibility, and of course, I vote for Willie.  Short
of that, perhaps we can do a better job organizing the community to focus on
work that needs to get done.  My own feeling is that we should work in an
accessibility sand-box, which feeds into Ubuntu and the other distros.  I
think we can do that with Vinux based on Ubuntu.

Bill

On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Storm Dragon wrote:

>  Hi,
> Is there a site, or some way to donate to Ubuntu in such a way that the
> donated funds will go towards accessibility specifically? I would like to be
> able to donate to projects like Orca and speech-dispatcher, but as far as I
> know, right now that would meen donating to Oracle. This, I will never do,
> not even if hell does freeze over. So, the next best thing would be to
> donate to the distro specifically, but I would like to know that my
> donations are supporting the programs that make the distro accessible to me.
> thanks
> Storm
>
> --
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> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:http://www.stormdragon.us/
> What color dragon are 
> you?http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/new/alustriel07/what-color-dragon-would-you-be/
>
>
>
>
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Draft Willie for Ubuntu Accessibility

[Bill Cox]

I don't need to introduce Willie on this forum.  If you don't know him
and some of his work, you're not involved.  Willie is looking for a
new job as the result of the Oracle/Sun merger.  I've said before that
Ubuntu could own the accessibility space with one more full time guy.
If that guy is Willie, he'll prove me right.

I don't know the situation at Canonical, but getting Willie roped in
would be super-huge.  RedHat would do great with Willie as well, but
I'd rather see his skills go to Ubuntu first, and let Fedora get his
work downstream from Ubuntu.

Anyone interested in forming a Draft Willie campaign?

Bill

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Re: retrieving synthesized auio data?

[Bill Cox]

Hi, Luke.  Count me in for a supporting role on speech-dispatcher.  I
was also thinking of enhancing speech-dispatcher to create audio
files.  There's some discussion on the Vinux list about creating an
audio book creation app, and sometime over the next year, I'd like to
see it happen.

Personally, I'm not a fan of using dbus for inter-process
communication.  I prefer file sockets generally, but I'm old-school.
Actually, assuming we don't mind losing the TCP capability in
speech-dispatcher, I don't see why speech-dispatcher can't become a
shared library, with no daemon running.  Do you know a good reason?

Bill

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Luke Yelavich
 wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 04, 2010 at 12:04:00PM PST, Luke Yelavich wrote:
>> I intend to write up some roadmap/specification documentation as to what I 
>> would like to work on with speech-dispatcher next. I think first, we get a 
>> 0.6.8 release out the door, then start thinking what needs major work, to 
>> ensure speech-dispatcher is still usable both as a system service for those 
>> who want it, and for the ever changing multi-user desktop environment. One 
>> such idea I have, is to consider dbus as a client/server communication 
>> transport layer. This could even go so far as to solve the issue of using 
>> system level clients like BrlTTY with a system level speech-dispatcher, 
>> which would then communicate with a user level speech-dispatcher for example.
>
> One final thing. Canonical will not be funding future developments of 
> speech-dispatcher. Any work I do on Speech-dispatcher from here on out, will 
> be done mostly in my own time. I may fix bugs here or there with my Canonical 
> hat on, but the rest will be me personally contributing to the project.
>
> I really want to see speech-dispatcher succeed, and become the standard 
> speech API on linux, and perhaps other POSIX OSs like BSD etc. In order to do 
> this, we need to clearly document the changes we want to make going forward, 
> so we can keep on track to achieving that goal. Once again, if Brailcom are 
> unable to give speech-dispatcher the time it deserves, I am willing to lead 
> the project development, manage releases, and code quality as much as I can 
> in my own time, with Brailcom's blessing of course.
>
> So stay tuned for futher development plans.
>
> Luke
>
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Re: Lucid and speech dispatcher

[Bill Cox]

I guess first I need to understand why you want it in system-wide
mode.  Having it ru as user has benefits.  In particular, you can bind
a command like "sh -c 'killall speech-dispatcher; orca --replace'" to
a key like Shift+Ctrl+O, to restart both speech-dispatcher and Orca
when needed.  In theory two different blind users could have different
speech-dispatcher configurations, but I never heard of two blind users
sharing a machine.

I run speech-dispatcher both in system-wide mode, and in user mode.  I
turn on speech-dispatcher in system-wide mode so that I can run
speechd-up and get speakup working with speech-dispatcher.  I prefer
this mode for it's stability.  Speech-dispatcher still crashes now and
then (about every other day for me), in user-space, so it's nice to
have a speakup specific version running that is rock-solid.  For some
reason, the speakup copy of speech-dispatcher just doesn't seem to
crash, but I use Orca far more than speakup.

To get two copies of speech-dispatcher running and playing nicely
together, you need to run PulseAudio in system-wide mode.  In the
future, hopefully, this will be fixed, but for now, I recommend all
users who need speakup run it this way.  Here's how I run PulseAudio
in system-wide mode in Karmic and Lucid:

Edit /etc/defaults/pulseaudio, and change:

PULSEAUDIO_SYSTEM_START=0

to

PULSEAUDIO_SYSTEM_START=1

Then, edit /etc/pulse/client.conf, and add the line

autospawn = no

After the line that says '#autospawn = yes'.  Then, delete the file
/etc/xdg/autostart/pulseaudio.desktop.  Finally, you have to disable
group-based authentication to use the sound system.  This is not
ideal, but it works, and I don't know any way to get the installer to
automatically add users to the pulse-access group.  Edit
/etc/pulse/system.pa.  Find the line that reads:

load-module module-native-protocol-unix

and change it to read:

load-module module-native-protocol-unix auth-anonymous=1

Bill

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:49 AM, mk360  wrote:
>    Hi,
>
>    First of all, really many thanks to luke for the work on spd and ubuntu
> lucid, finally its working good, probably at the level of spd with alsa.
>
>    Now a question... can I configure spd to start in system mode? usually I
> set yes on /etc/default/speech-dispatcher, but under karmic I had many
> problems with this losing all sound, so I prefer to ask, becouse my lucid is
> working really good...
>
>    Regards, and again, congratulations.
>    mk.
>
>
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Re: Compiz keybinds conflicts

[Bill Cox]

Hi, Arky.  Someone just pointed out this problem in my Vinux/Ubuntu
Lucid ISO.  I turned off "Static Application Switcher", and turned on
"Application Switcher", and reassigned Tab to
next_panel, and Tab to prev_panel.

The results are awesome.  I've been using the Compiz magnifier for
over a year, and I've never been able to access the panels accept with
the mouse.  Getting next_panel and prev_panel working in Compiz is
huge.  This is the last major accessibility issue I know of with
Compiz.

I think Lucid would be a good platform to switch to the normal
application switcher, and fixing this key binding should be done as
well.

Thanks,
BIll

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 10:17 AM, Arky  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Compiz keybindings often conflit with gnome defaults. Perhaps we can provide 
> a patch to resolve this in lucid. Any ideas?
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lucid/CompizDefaults
>
>
> Cheers
>
> --arky
>
> Rakesh 'arky' Ambati| IT Consultant| http://www.braillewithoutborders.org | 
> Blog: http://playingwithsid.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>      The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. 
> http://in.yahoo.com/
>
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Anyone know how to increase the console font size

[Bill Cox]

In Ubuntu Lucid Alpha, the fonts on the console are really tiny.  In
Karmic, they were nice and large.  Does anyone know how to modify the
console font size?

Thanks,
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Accessible install and Vinux?

[Bill Cox]

I think Lucid is on track to be a fabulous distro for accessibility.
I'm working on a Vinux ISO based on Ubuntu Lucid, and I'm pretty
excited about it.

However, even better than having a separate ISO would be having a
Vinux-like install option.  Is there any chance that the we Vinux guys
could work with the Luke and the Ubuntu accessibility guys on adding a
bunch of cool accessibility stuff automatically when an accessible
install is selected?  In particular, a more accessible desktop
environment (different /etc/skel), and speakup support would be a huge
improvement for an accessible install, IMO.

I'd much rather work on an accessible install for Ubuntu than a
separate Vinux/Ubuntu ISO.  Any chance this could happen?

Thanks,
Bill

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speech-dispatcher now requires ~root/.speech-dispatcher when run as service

[Bill Cox]

Hi.  The speech-dispatcher I updated in Karmic today no longer works
out-of-the box with /etc/init.d/speech-dispatcher.  Even with the -C
flag to specify a directory, it insists that ~root/.speech-dispatcher
exists.  A symbolic link from that to /etc/speech-dispatcher also
fails, since speechd.conf is not in a conf sub-directory.

Is this a bug in speech-dispatcher, or should I just configure the
system service in ~root/.speech-dispatcher rather than /etc?

Thanks,
Bill

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Re: Orca fails to run in latest Lucid update

[Bill Cox]

D'oh!  This is just what Willie told me to do before:

$ gconftool-2 --set /desktop/gnome/interface/at-spi-corba --type bool true

If you execute this, then at-spi-registryd can run, and Orca starts.

Bill

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Bill Cox  wrote:
> Anyone else seeing this?  After an apt-get upgrade, Orca no longer
> works.  Here's what gets reported:
>
> vi...@vinux-laptop:~$ orca
>
> (orca:1830): atk-bridge-WARNING **: AT_SPI_REGISTRY was not started at
> session startup.
>
> (orca:1830): atk-bridge-WARNING **: IOR not set.
>
> (orca:1830): atk-bridge-WARNING **: Could not locate registry
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>  File "", line 1, in 
>  File "/usr/lib/pymodules/python2.6/orca/orca.py", line 1747, in main
>    init(pyatspi.Registry)
>  File "/usr/lib/pymodules/python2.6/orca/orca.py", line 1266, in init
>    registry.registerEventListener(_onChildrenChanged,
>  File "/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/pyatspi/registry.py", line
> 331, in __getattribute__
>    raise RuntimeError('Could not find or activate registry')
> RuntimeError: Could not find or activate registry
>
>
> I can track this down, but if you have already figured it out, or have
> pointers for me, I'd like to hear from you.
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>

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Orca fails to run in latest Lucid update

[Bill Cox]

Anyone else seeing this?  After an apt-get upgrade, Orca no longer
works.  Here's what gets reported:

vi...@vinux-laptop:~$ orca

(orca:1830): atk-bridge-WARNING **: AT_SPI_REGISTRY was not started at
session startup.

(orca:1830): atk-bridge-WARNING **: IOR not set.

(orca:1830): atk-bridge-WARNING **: Could not locate registry
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "", line 1, in 
  File "/usr/lib/pymodules/python2.6/orca/orca.py", line 1747, in main
init(pyatspi.Registry)
  File "/usr/lib/pymodules/python2.6/orca/orca.py", line 1266, in init
registry.registerEventListener(_onChildrenChanged,
  File "/usr/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/pyatspi/registry.py", line
331, in __getattribute__
raise RuntimeError('Could not find or activate registry')
RuntimeError: Could not find or activate registry


I can track this down, but if you have already figured it out, or have
pointers for me, I'd like to hear from you.

Thanks,
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Re: [orca-list] [ANNOUNCE] libao (new audio driver for speechd including working pulseaudio support).

[Bill Cox]

Oops... It was pointed out that I got the credits wrong in the header.
 I've regenerated the second patch to correct it.

Bill

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Bill Cox  wrote:
> Hi, Luke.  Adding the ability to set PulseAudio parameters in
> speechd.conf was harder than I thought it would be, but it's done.
> Attached are two patches.  The first is the patch file to get the
> basic pulseaudio driver that you've tested.  The second is the work I
> had to do to get the PulseAudio buffering parameters exposed to the
> user through speechd.conf.  Just add these to your debian/patches
> directory and the 00list file.
>
> I wasn't sure where to e-mail these... sorry for the spam!
>
> Bill
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Bill Cox  wrote:
>> Hi, Luke.  That's great!  For some reason, I keep expecting the Magic
>> Code Fairies to clean up code before it gets included anywhere.
>> Earlier in this thread, Rui Batista said he was going to do some
>> cleanup - making PulseAudio buffer parameters configurable again.  So,
>> naturally I didn't bother.  If you can wait a few hours, I'll do that
>> change, and post an improved patch here.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 12:31 AM, Luke Yelavich
>>  wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 07, 2010 at 03:25:47PM EST, Luke Yelavich wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Jan 07, 2010 at 03:19:32PM EST, Bill Cox wrote:
>>>> > Hi, Luke.  The new pulse drivers work well for me on both Karmic and
>>>> > Lucid, and I haven't heard of users with poor performance so far, but
>>>> > it could be machine specific.  The strange thing is you're reporting
>>>> > libao works well, and all I did was cut and paste the pulseaudio calls
>>>> > libao makes into the libao driver, so I would expect similar
>>>> > performance, other than for the buffering settings I make in the
>>>> > pulse-simple interface.
>>>>
>>>> *slaps head. I didn't apply the patch I created with the new pulse file. 
>>>> I'll test again and get back to you,
>>>
>>> Ok, now that I actually have it aplying and built, the difference is *VERY* 
>>> noticable. Currently using espeak with pulse, but will try with portaudio 
>>> again since bits of short text, especially if arrowing very fast, are a 
>>> little bit clicky.
>>>
>>> Long term, there is the power consumption issue that Lennart raised, since 
>>> we are using the simple API, but we need to work that out as best we can, 
>>> and go from there, but I think this will be going into Ubuntu very shortly, 
>>> once I have done a few more tests.
>>>
>>> Great work!
>>>
>>> Luke
>>>
>>
>


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Re: [orca-list] [ANNOUNCE] libao (new audio driver for speechd including working pulseaudio support).

[Bill Cox]

Hi, Luke.  Adding the ability to set PulseAudio parameters in
speechd.conf was harder than I thought it would be, but it's done.
Attached are two patches.  The first is the patch file to get the
basic pulseaudio driver that you've tested.  The second is the work I
had to do to get the PulseAudio buffering parameters exposed to the
user through speechd.conf.  Just add these to your debian/patches
directory and the 00list file.

I wasn't sure where to e-mail these... sorry for the spam!

Bill

On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Bill Cox  wrote:
> Hi, Luke.  That's great!  For some reason, I keep expecting the Magic
> Code Fairies to clean up code before it gets included anywhere.
> Earlier in this thread, Rui Batista said he was going to do some
> cleanup - making PulseAudio buffer parameters configurable again.  So,
> naturally I didn't bother.  If you can wait a few hours, I'll do that
> change, and post an improved patch here.
>
> Bill
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 12:31 AM, Luke Yelavich
>  wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 07, 2010 at 03:25:47PM EST, Luke Yelavich wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 07, 2010 at 03:19:32PM EST, Bill Cox wrote:
>>> > Hi, Luke.  The new pulse drivers work well for me on both Karmic and
>>> > Lucid, and I haven't heard of users with poor performance so far, but
>>> > it could be machine specific.  The strange thing is you're reporting
>>> > libao works well, and all I did was cut and paste the pulseaudio calls
>>> > libao makes into the libao driver, so I would expect similar
>>> > performance, other than for the buffering settings I make in the
>>> > pulse-simple interface.
>>>
>>> *slaps head. I didn't apply the patch I created with the new pulse file. 
>>> I'll test again and get back to you,
>>
>> Ok, now that I actually have it aplying and built, the difference is *VERY* 
>> noticable. Currently using espeak with pulse, but will try with portaudio 
>> again since bits of short text, especially if arrowing very fast, are a 
>> little bit clicky.
>>
>> Long term, there is the power consumption issue that Lennart raised, since 
>> we are using the simple API, but we need to work that out as best we can, 
>> and go from there, but I think this will be going into Ubuntu very shortly, 
>> once I have done a few more tests.
>>
>> Great work!
>>
>> Luke
>>
>


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Anyone know how Fedora 12 launches root apps?

[Bill Cox]

I've read that Fedora 12 applications that need root privileges are
all accessible to Orca.  Does anyone know how Fedora does this?
Ubuntu uses gksu, and all programs launched in Ubuntu with gksu are
not accessible to Orca.

Thanks,
Bill

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Help needed for system-wide pulseaudio for blind users

[Bill Cox]

I also posted this on the pulseaudio list, but there may be more help
to be found here...

I'm trying to build a Vinux (blind-user Linux distro) release based on
Ubuntu/Lucid.  There's too much code to rewrite to have everything
working the "right" way with pulseaudio by May, so I want to release
Vinux/Ubuntu Lucid with the system-wide hack.

I've enabled PA to start in system wide mode by editing
/etc/defaults/pulseaudio, and enabling it there.  I've added gdm,
root, speech-dispatcher, and my user name to the pulse-access group.
Pulseaudio starts, and speech-dispatcher and speechd-up work with it
just fine at boot.  Since this is a distro for the blind, I boot into
a console, not gdm.  The login prompt is read nicely, as is text when
I log in.  However, if I try to play a .wav file, there is no sound.
None of the apps with PA back-ends will play sound for me.  When I
type 'startx', Gome comes up, but the sound preference dialog tells me
there's no sound card.  I suspect that rights to use it have been
granted to the speech-dispatcher user, and I'm not able to access it.

If there is anyone who can help me get such a settup working, I'd
really appreciate it!

Thanks,
Bill

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Can pulseaudio be made to work with consoles and Orca at the same time?

[Bill Cox]

I'm trying to get a basic Karmic system working with the two critical
applications for the blind: Orca and speakup.  Pulseaudio is being a
huge PITA.  Whether I use espeakup or speechd-up, pulseaudio is
launched as another user as soon as the speakup module starts during
boot.  However, when the user logs into gnome, another instance of
pulseaudio is created.  The first one locks the sound card, and the
second is mute.  Orca wont talk.  If I kill the first one, Orca comes
up talking, but then my Ctrl+Alt+F[1-6] consoles stop talking.

Any basically usable Linux system for the blind needs Orca and speakup
working together.  Pulseaudio, SFAIK, only allows one instance to use
the sound card at a time.  Pulseaudio also requires each user to have
his own copy.  Speakup runs before any user logs in, and therefore
must run as it's own user.

Therefore... pulseaudio can't work on any truely accessible Linux box?
 Is this basically true?  If this can be fixed, which peice of code
needs fixing (I'm willing to fix it)?  Should we try and make multiple
instances of pulseaudio play nice together so they can share the sound
card?

Bill

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Best way to change default user configurations?

[Bill Cox]

I've got a couple packages now on the Vinux/Ubuntu Karmic ppa on
launchpad.net.  They provide an updated pulseaudio driver for
speech-dispatcher, and some 32-bit binaries for voxin compatibility on
64-bit systems.  I'd like to make a couple virtual-packages, called
vinux-metacity and vinux-compiz, that would automatically set up
default keybindings, menu settings, and several other things that make
Ubuntu more like Vinux, which is more a much more user-friendly setup
for the blind and visually impaired than the default settings.

The easy way for me to do this is to create a package that installs a
ton of files in /etc/skel.  Alternatively, I could modify the various
packages involved so that their default settings are compatible with
Vinux.

What is the "right" way to do this, and what is the expediant way,
given that I don't have much time to work on this?

Thanks,
Bill

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Accessibility bugs in Lucid have been tracked down

[Bill Cox]

I'm very happy to say that I don't know of any major bugs in Lucid at
the moment related to accessibility that haven't been tracked down.
Of course, there are still some there... I cheat and use the mouse all
the time, I haven't checked Braille, or done an install by voice.
Also, some of the bugs have known fixes, but haven't been included
yet, like the patch to speakup-source and a minor environment variable
related bug in using sudo to launch accessible gnome apps like
synaptic.  However, performance issues have been fixed, as have
several goobers that kept the system from working properly.  The
biggest problem on my laptop at the moment is the stupid proprietary
ATI drivers don't work (again).

I'm very excited about Lucid at this point.  I think it's going to be
the best Ubuntu release ever for accessibility.  If anyone runs into
significant accessibility bugs, let me know.  I'll see if I can find
some time to help track them down.

Bill

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Re: a question about the live cd

[Bill Cox]

I'd venture a guess that you still would want the accessibility
install in order to enable Orca during installation, and to enable it
by default when booting Ubuntu.  I would guess that pulseaudio will be
enabled in Lucid either way.

With a Vinux/Lucid install, speech would be enabled regardless, with
pulseaudio, but ideally you'd get options for whether or not to boot
into Gnome, or go with raw speakup in a command line interface.  In an
ideal world, Ubuntu would incorporate many of the accessibility
improvements found in Vinux when you select the accessibility install,
and Vinux/Ubuntu as a seperate ISO would go away (Vinux would still be
needed for other distros).  That would include critical accessibility
programs like speakup, the Vinux key bindings, Stormdragon's cool Orca
utils, emacspeak in the DVD version, etc.  Ideally, the background
would be black, fonts would be 18-ish points, and we'd even have an
audio-book creator app that talks to bookshare.org.

Sounds pretty pie-in-the-sky-ish to me, but is there any chance us
Vinux guys could get seriously involved with what happens in an Ubuntu
accessibility install?  I'm confident there'd be a lot of interest
from the blind/VI community, and there are a bunch of us who are big
geeks, with a personal stake in the game.

Bill

On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 8:03 PM, mike  wrote:
> Hi, if these new patches are included in the live CD will we still need the 
> blind install? Or will pulse be enabled and we will boot the CD normally?
> Mike.
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Fix to get speakup working in Lucid

[Bill Cox]

I've patched a minor bug that causes speakup not to install properly
on Ubuntu Lucid alpha.  I've filed a bug report with the needed patch.
 Does it help to also post here, to let Luke know about it?  If not, I
wont do so in the future.  The bug is:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/speakup/+bug/498288

If we can get this fix included soon, guys like Mike can get involved
and help us make Ubuntu Lucid the most accessible release ever.

By the way, thanks Luke, for the libao patch!  Lucid does seem on
track for being a great accessible distro out-of-the-box.

Thanks,
Bill

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Re: [pulseaudio-discuss] Latest source for pulseaudio works great!

[Bill Cox]

Sorry, Dan, and others I hastily spammed... pulseaudio compiles and
installs just fine on my system, but doesn't run!  It exits with this
message:

E: module.c: Failed to open module "module-dbus-protocol": file not found

Without pulseaudio, alsa takes over and of course we get back to the
good Orca performance I'm use to.  I'll switch back to the version in
Ubuntu and see if I can find anything there.  Let me know if I can
help you track down the delay issue.

Thanks,
Bill

On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:28 AM, Daniel Chen  wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:21 AM, Bill Cox  wrote:
>> I downloaded from git the latest pulseaudio repository and recompiled
>> on Ubntu Lucid.  The speech performance is excellent!  There are
>> several goobers that we already had when disabling pulseaudio: the
>> volume control disappears, the volume starts muted after boot, and I'm
>> sure the other usual stuff.
>
> Tracking origin/master is not the same as the latest stable -- 0.9.21,
> which is in Lucid -- but I'm highly keen to narrow down what the
> source of performance differences is.  How are you compiling?  Which
> build-dependencies do you have installed?
>
>> Based on this, I'm strongly recommending that Ubuntu update to the
>> latest pulseaudio for Lucid!  The current 1/2 second delay makes
>> Ubuntu terrible for anyone who needs a screen reader (Orca).  Updating
>> packages should fix this!
>
> As explained above, Ubuntu already carries the latest stable, and the
> differences to origin/master HEAD aren't significant (other than dbus,
> eq).
>
> -Dan
> ___
> pulseaudio-discuss mailing list
> pulseaudio-disc...@mail.0pointer.de
> https://tango.0pointer.de/mailman/listinfo/pulseaudio-discuss
>

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Latest source for pulseaudio works great!

[Bill Cox]

I downloaded from git the latest pulseaudio repository and recompiled
on Ubntu Lucid.  The speech performance is excellent!  There are
several goobers that we already had when disabling pulseaudio: the
volume control disappears, the volume starts muted after boot, and I'm
sure the other usual stuff.

Based on this, I'm strongly recommending that Ubuntu update to the
latest pulseaudio for Lucid!  The current 1/2 second delay makes
Ubuntu terrible for anyone who needs a screen reader (Orca).  Updating
packages should fix this!

Bill

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Unacceptable delay in pulseaudio continues in Lucid

[Bill Cox]

When pulseaudio is enabled, all sound is delayed on the order of 1/2
seconds, which makes Orca a nightmare to use for blind users.  It's
completely unacceptable for a main machine.  When pulseaudio is
disabled, speech performance is great.  I filed a bug about this in
November:

http://www.mail-archive.com/ubuntu-b...@lists.ubuntu.com/msg1823018.html

However, there's no progress on this issue so far.  My question is:

Are we going to be able to fix the unacceptable delay in pulseaudio
before Lucid releases in April, or should blind/VI users instead focus
on finding workarounds for all the bugs that now exist when pulseaudio
is disabled?  I know the "right" answer is to fix pulseaudio.  What
I'm looking for is the practical solution that will actually exist in
April.  If anyone knows how to begin tracking down the pulseaudio
delay problem, let me know and I'll take a look.  For now, I have no
idea.

Thanks,
Bill

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Re: orca out of the box

[Bill Cox]

Hi, Arki, and thanks for working on the bugs.  I think there are a few
of us who would like to help get Orca working well in Lucid.  I've
installed alpha1, and have run into the pyatspi bug you know about.
Any help getting Orca working well is appreciated.  I'm comfortable
debugging C code, but I don't understand the whole D-bus/atspi/COBRA
stuff at all, or even if that's where the bug lies.

Another issue with continues to be pulseaudio.  Disabling it with the
.pulse_a11y_nostart hack leads to far superior audio performance.  Do
you think we have time to fix the pulseaudio problems for Lucid, or
should we focus on making the accessibility install with pulseaudio
disabled less buggy and more usable?  I'd like to help track down bugs
in Lucid related to accessibility from now until the April release.

Thanks,
Bill

On Fri, Dec 11, 2009 at 2:19 AM, Isaac Porat  wrote:
> Hello Arki and all
>
>  Your reply implies that all is well, in fact those who tried speech with
> Karmic knows that it is for all practical purposes unusable.  It is my
> impression that even geeks can't get it to work reliably PulseAudio is too
> deeply embedded into the system and it seems that those looking after audio
> in Canonical never considered the impact of this on the blind community.
> There is a bold statement about accessibility on Ubuntu's website but it
> seems to have no roots in reality at least with Karmic.
>
> Jaunty had at least a clean way to remove PulseAudio and in fact it is the
> first distro I can use as a blind person productively - thanks to all
> concerned.  Karmic is completely the other way - unusable.
>
> Yes I am aware of the various tweaks with limited effect and completely
> unworkable for the typical blind Windows or Mac user looking for an
> alternative.
>  http://live.gnome.org/Orca/UbuntuKarmic
> When Karmic was released I thought this problem  was a glitch, an oversight
> which will be sorted out; there are no visible sighnes of this yet, at least
> nothing that the blind community is aware of.
>
> Regards
> Isaac
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: ubuntu-accessibility-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com
> [mailto:ubuntu-accessibility-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Arky
> Sent: 11 December 2009 05:30
> To: Josh; ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com
> Subject: Re: orca out of the box
>
> Hi Josh,
>
> Ubuntu LiveCD has an accessibility mode that enables blind users to use Orca
> screen reader and magnifier.
>
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility/#Starting%20Orca%20on%20the%
> 20Live%20CD
>
> Cheers
>
> --arky
>
>
> Rakesh 'arky' Ambati| IT Consultant| http://www.braillewithoutborders.org |
> Blog: http://playingwithsid.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>        From: Josh 
>        To: ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com
>        Sent: Fri, 11 December, 2009 6:40:12 AM
>        Subject: orca out of the box
>
>
>        Hi,
>
>        I think in the next release when ubuntu live cd/dvd starts up it
> should detect the sound card then say: if you're blind do this to start the
> live cd with orca and dothat to start the installer with orca. make it more
> like the mac with voiceover kind of.
>
>        Josh
>
>        My email address is: jkenn...@gmail.com . www.satogo.com Get klango
> at www.klango.net it's free! Get NVDA www.nvda-project.org it's free! Grab
> Ubuntu at www.ubuntu.com it's free! and www.twitter.com/jkenn337
> follow-me-on-twitter.
>
>
> 
>
> The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage
>  .
>
>
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> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
>

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Re: To turn Karmic, or remain Jaunty?

[Bill Cox]

Short answer: Wait for Ubuntu 10.4 LTE.  Unless you're just too curious.

Having gotten Jaunty working for you means you're good at hacking the
system a bit.  I think Karmic is similar in effort as Jaunty, but
everyone's experience seems to vary a lot.  The thing is, I don't see
any major draw for Karmic over Jaunty for blind/VI users who already
have a stable system working well with Orca.

Ubuntu 10.4 (release April next year), will be a long-term-support
edition, which means the focus is on stability.  A ton of stuff that's
broken in Karmic, like resume from suspend, video driver problems,
etc, will be fixed in the next release.

That said, I just couldn't help myself, and I went ahead and upgraded
my Jaunty x64 laptop.  My effort to just "dist-upgrade" failed pretty
badly, but my system was pretty heavily modified already.  The clean
install worked, except for the noted problems with pulseaudio (a big
PITA, frankly).  If you're like me, you'll go through a similar
process, simply because we're so damed curious about what's in the
latest and greatest distro.  I like it.  The Software Center is
interesting, with fascinating potential.  I'm waiting for Canonical to
allow paid-applications on it, which would send a real jolt through
the linux world, one we need IMO.  Some minor goobers in Jaunty are
cleaned up.  Shutdown speed is amazing, and boot isn't bad.  VPN in
Network Manager is currently broken for me, but use to work, and I use
gnome-alsa-mixer since the volume control is broken (since you have to
remove pulseaudio).  Now and then the system crashes when I restart X,
like when I log out.  The speech performance isn't bad with alsa and
speech-dispatcher.  I use voxin for the voice, so I don't know if
espeak is still causing speech-dispatcher crashes.  It works well with
voxin.

Bill

On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 12:24 AM, Dave Hunt  wrote:
> Given all the trouble with sound in Karmic, especially as regards Orca
> and speech, is there anything to recommend upgrading from a stable
> Jaunty system?  Are there enough other improvements to justify all the
> effort needed in order to overcome the sound issues?  If I decide that
> an upgrade is worth the trouble, what think you of my doing an in-place
> upgrade, rather than a clean re-install?
>
>
> Thanks for your thought,
>
>
> Dave  H.
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: karmic problem is somewhat fixed

[Bill Cox]

Hi, Labrador.

I've enjoyed reading your posts.  Anyway, as an old (I'm 45) software
developer myself, I wish anything I shipped where half as stable as
Ubuntu.  It's damed hard to build the QA suite, and testing's a bitch.
 I'm sure the developer in charge of this decision thought:

A) Switching to PulseAudio wouldn't break important functionality like Orca
B) Any bugs that cause problems could be quickly handled.

Unfortunately, we developers are often wrong, as in this case.  Luke
has already posted that it's high priority for him to track down the
performance problems between speech-dispatcher and PulseAudio.  At
this point, we should just hope that Luke succeeds and that in the
future Canonical tests Orca performance before making major sound
system changes.

Anyway, this is hardly the only problem in Karmic, and hardly the only
remaining issue in Linux.  My wife came to me today, because she
couldn't figure out how to install Adobe Air on Ubuntu.  She had
downloaded some installer ending in '.bin', and was double-clicking
it, saying, "It wont start!  It wont start!"  Linux is not yet for the
masses, though I hope Ubuntu eventually gets there.  In the meantime,
it's the most awesome system for programmers and hackers ever
conceived, and has it's use in business, too.

Bill

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Re: Ubuntu Karmic 9.10 Koala positive feetback related toaccessibility and speech responsiveness

[Bill Cox]

Hi, Storm.  Once again, you totally rock!  I did in fact forget to change
pulse to alsa in speechd.conf (D'oh!).  I'll edit the Orca/Karmic wiki page
and add this step.  Now key echo is working well, and I'm having currently
no problems in Karmic with Orca using voxin with speech-dispatcher/alsa.
I'm basically a happy camper at the moment.

I'm still having trouble getting the volume control to show up in the gnome
panel.  I delete .pulse and .pulse-cookie, but some process keeps recreating
them!  Do you also know the solution to this?

Thanks, Bill.

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Storm Dragon wrote:

>  Hi,
> I was having the same problems with pulseaudio. The pauses every few wordes
> were quite interesting. Removing pulse solved sound problems for more than
> just orca though. I am still using speech-dispatcher with no problems. Did
> you remember to run spd-conf and set it to use alsa instead of pulse?  I am
> using 64 bit Karmik.
>
> --
> Thoughts of a Dragon:http://www.stormdragon.us/
> What color dragon are 
> you?http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/new/alustriel07/what-color-dragon-would-you-be/
>
>
>
>   On Mon, 2009-11-02 at 08:57 -0500, Bill Cox wrote:
>
> I'm very glad to hear about positive experiences so far with Karmic.
> I installed the x64 version yesterday on my laptop (Dell Inspiron
> 9400).  Orca did work out-of-the-box, which is nice.  If blind users
> absolutely must do a few things on linux, Karmic can do the job.
> However, I found there to be a delay due to pulseaudio of about 1/2
> second, making key and word echo useless.  The delay is so bad, I
> don't see how I could use Karmic with Orca full-time.  I installed
> voxin as well (far nicer than espeak, IMO), and had two additional
> problems, besides the delay.  When using speech-dispatcher, speech
> would pause every few seconds for about half a second, which is
> seriously annoying.  When using Gnome Speech Services, instead of
> pausing, it simply stops speaking, so it is very tedious to listen to
> an entire document.  I suspect both problems are related to the delay
> in pulseaudio.
>
> With the virtual machine install, I was able to get Orca working well
> by uninstalling pulseaudio, as described here:
>
> http://live.gnome.org/Orca/UbuntuKarmic
>
> However, when installed on my laptop, removing pulseaudio caused
> speech-dispatcher to hang, with 100% CPU utilization.  So, for now, I
> have no suitable Karmic-based Orca solution.  Are other people seeing
> the delay problem?  Is it only with the x64 version?  Are you using
> Karmic/Orca as your main machine, or just playing around a bit?
>
> Thanks,
> Bill
>
>
>
> --
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Re: Ubuntu Karmic 9.10 Koala positive feetback related toaccessibility and speech responsiveness

[Bill Cox]

I'm very glad to hear about positive experiences so far with Karmic.
I installed the x64 version yesterday on my laptop (Dell Inspiron
9400).  Orca did work out-of-the-box, which is nice.  If blind users
absolutely must do a few things on linux, Karmic can do the job.
However, I found there to be a delay due to pulseaudio of about 1/2
second, making key and word echo useless.  The delay is so bad, I
don't see how I could use Karmic with Orca full-time.  I installed
voxin as well (far nicer than espeak, IMO), and had two additional
problems, besides the delay.  When using speech-dispatcher, speech
would pause every few seconds for about half a second, which is
seriously annoying.  When using Gnome Speech Services, instead of
pausing, it simply stops speaking, so it is very tedious to listen to
an entire document.  I suspect both problems are related to the delay
in pulseaudio.

With the virtual machine install, I was able to get Orca working well
by uninstalling pulseaudio, as described here:

http://live.gnome.org/Orca/UbuntuKarmic

However, when installed on my laptop, removing pulseaudio caused
speech-dispatcher to hang, with 100% CPU utilization.  So, for now, I
have no suitable Karmic-based Orca solution.  Are other people seeing
the delay problem?  Is it only with the x64 version?  Are you using
Karmic/Orca as your main machine, or just playing around a bit?

Thanks,
Bill

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Getting Orca working with Karmic

[Bill Cox]

Has anyone gotten Orca working well in Karmic Beta?  If so, what
changes did you have to make?

One thing that seems to have helped was to remove pulseaudio.
However, before that, you need to install alsa-oss, or you wont have a
sound system at all.  This seems to have made Orca able to clear out
the speech-dispatcher queue of sound you don't want to hear.  It's
still pretty unstable.  I haven't been able to use it in any
productive way for more than a couple minutes at a time before
something crashes.

Bill

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Re: karmic and voxin

[Bill Cox]

I'm trying to get voxin working in karmic beta x64 under VirtualBox.
I can get the 'say' program working without error.  However, I've
failed so far to get it working with either speech-dispatcher or Gnome
Speech services.  To install, I used the voxin-update-0.24 program.  I
had to modify voxin-installer.sh to include 9.10 in a case statement,
but then the install runs.  However, Orca does not show ibmtts as an
option when using SD, and it doesn't show IBM ViaVoice when using
Gnome Speech Services.  What steps did you use to install Voxin?

Also, I didn't have any luck removing pulseaudio.  All it did was fry my sound.

Thanks,
Bill

On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 7:34 PM, jose vilmar estacio de souza
 wrote:
> I tried to run on my 64 bits installation without success.
> My machine froze completely.
>
> On 09/27/2009 08:22 PM, Luke Yelavich wrote:
>> On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 01:53:32AM EST, jose vilmar estacio de souza wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone running voxin in karmic?
>>>
>> I tried running it last week for some testing, and it worked without issue 
>> on i386.
>>
>> Luke
>>
>>
>
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Re: How's Karmic these days?

[Bill Cox]

I did a raw install of Ubuntu Karmic x64 Beta in VirutualBox, and
here's the current status for such an installation.  Note that I did a
visual install, not an accessible install:

The install has a nice slide show.  One of the slides claimed Ubuntu
was "one of the most accessible operating systems."  I thought that
was interesting.

There were some goobers, but overall, the OS rocks for sighted users,
even in Beta.  It is easy to see why Ubuntu remains the popular Linux
OS.  Karmic is going to be a well received release.

Orca ran out-of-the-box.  However, speech got queued in Speech
Dispatcher, and hitting escape or any other key did nothing to stop
it.  Even killing Orca did not stop it.  You have to listen to every
word Orca thinks is available to be read.  This makes Orca completely
unusable.  I installed Gnome Speech Services, and switched to that,
but it crashes the virtual machine.

So basically, Karmic Beta is awesome for sighted users, but does not
work out-of-the-box for blind/VI users.  I'm going to try removing
Pulse Audio.  I'll let you know if I find any combo that works well
with Orca.

Bill

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Re: How's Karmic these days?

[Bill Cox]

Hi, Luke.

Thanks for working on accessibility.  I feel really rotten about
complaining about the bugs without putting in effort into debugging.
However, my boss is all over me at the moment to get another project
back on schedule.  I'm sure you know what that's like.

However, over the next year, I promise to find some time to nail a bug
or two, like the crash in speech dispatcher.  In the meantime, we
should probably set expectations for users, and let them know it will
be a while before Orca is working in a stable manner in the latest
Ubuntu.  It's an unfortunate situation, but blind users are simply not
able to chip in and fix things when accessibility is broken, so it
will be up to the very few of us interested in accessibility who still
have decent vision to pull it off.

Best regards,
Bill

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Luke Yelavich  wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 08:46:26AM EST, Bill Cox wrote:
>> Sorry guys, I know there's some of you out there who actually work on
>> Ubuntu accessibility, but the current state sucks.  I certainly hope
>> Ubuntu decides at some point to make accessibility a priority.
>
> I can understand why, as a user, you feel that way. Unfortunately I am the 
> only one so far as I know of, actively working on improving Ubuntu's 
> accessibility, and while I do as much as I can to make things work as well as 
> they can, I have other matters that I need to attend to, due to working for 
> Canonical and being responsible for other parts of the desktop as well, so I 
> can only do so much in the time I allocate for accessibility work.
>
> Unfortunately the speech-dispatcher crasher is at the moment, somewhat beyond 
> my current skills to debug, although learning valgrind will likely help me 
> get better with sed debugging, and hopefully get rid of the speech-dispatcher 
> crash.
>
> So if you really want Ubuntu's accessibility to get better, I urge you to 
> consider helping out in whatever way you can, even if its only filing and 
> triaging bugs, thats something. The more bugs that are in a triaged state, 
> the less work I have to do, and the more bugs I can attempt to fix.
>
> I hope you all understand, and will do what you can to help.
>
> Regards
> Luke
>
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Re: How's Karmic these days?

[Bill Cox]

Well, yes, there are work-arounds for the volume.  However, though I
realise it's not Ubuntu's fault, having to restart speech dispatcher
every few minutes makes the whole release a PITA for Orca users.
Let's face it... Ubuntu kind of fell off the wagon for accessibility.
Blind users are currently forced to use older Debian based releases,
even though there is a strong desire to use Ubuntu.  Vinux is the
current best option, which is no longer based on Ubuntu.

Sorry guys, I know there's some of you out there who actually work on
Ubuntu accessibility, but the current state sucks.  I certainly hope
Ubuntu decides at some point to make accessibility a priority.

Bill

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Arky  wrote:
>
> --- On Wed, 21/10/09, Jon  wrote:
>
>> WARNING, if you dont have volume buttons on your
>> keyboard/laptop
>> then its probably not worth your time.
>> The issue seems to be that pulse audio volume is set to 0
>> when it starts, and if you dont have keys for changing the
>> volume,
>> or a sighted person to change it for you then you wont be
>> able to hear orca.
>
>
> Hi,
>
> Perhaps you should not fear this so much. You can use 
> gnome-keybinding-properties and set Volume down / up to key binding for 
> example Alt+F11 and Alt+F12 and you would find its possible to increase and 
> decrease the volume.
>
> I have just tried this on a Karmic machine and assure it works.
>
> Cheers
>
> --arky
> Rakesh 'arky' Ambati| IT Consultant| http://www.braillewithoutborders.org | 
> Blog: http://playingwithsid.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
>      Connect more, do more and share more with Yahoo! India Mail. Learn more. 
> http://in.overview.mail.yahoo.com/
>
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Lobbying for Orca?

[Bill Cox]

There is a scary article on Slashdot.org this morning about
speculation that Oracle will end support for OpenSolaris:

http://developers.slashdot.org/story/09/07/13/1847254/Mass-Speculation-Suggests-Oracle-May-Kill-OpenSolaris?art_pos=16

If there is any truth to this, is there anything we Orca users can do
to lobby Oracle for continuing support for Orca, whether based on
OpenSolaris, or Oracle's brand of Linux?  The kind of think I'm
thinking of might be finding employees we know at Oracle through our
linkedin network, and trying to insure Orca has high visibility
withing Oracle.

Bill

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Re: Voxin voices work great, espeak not so much in Ubuntu 9.04

[Bill Cox]

I think the equivalence of Eloquence in linux is voxin, which you can
buy for < $10 at http://voxin.oralux.net.  It's basically IBM
Viavoice.  Getting it to work with speakup takes a bit of work.  I
followed these instructions:

http://cvs.freebsoft.org/doc/speechd-up/speechd-up_1.html

On my system (Ubuntu 9.04 x64 using pulseaudio), I had to run
speech-dispatcher and then speechd-up after loging in, but then
everything works very well.  Seeing how much easier it is to just use
espeakup (instructions are at http://stormdragon.us/?p=44), maybe I
should just get off my high horse and learn to like the espeak voice.

Bill

On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Peter Torpey wrote:
>
>
> From: Bill Cox 
> Subject: Voxin voices work great, espeak not so much in Ubuntu 9.04
>        [PT] I found that the Viavox synthesizer did not work well with
> gnome-speech and pulse audio.  The problem I had was when a large amount of
> output was printed to the terminal in gnome-terminal, I could not get Voxin
> to shut up.  Sometimes it would continue for several minutes despite any key
> press.
>
> After talking to the folks at Oralux, I finally removed pulseaudio,
> connected all of my sounds through alsa, and ran Voxin with
> speech-dispatcher.  Now I can immediately stop the speaking of Voxin
> whenever I want without any problem.
>
> Thus, I wouldn't recommend using Voxin with gnome-speech, but rather would
> use speech-dispatcher.  But, speech-dispatcher may interfere with
> pulseaudio, so I removed that.
>
> --Petex64
> To: ubuntu ,
>        vinux-developm...@googlegroups.com
> Message-ID:
>        <499d69a00907081019t544c12b5q9d0e7f58e5011...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I'm running the latest code for atk, at-spi, orca, and compiz.  I also
> have upgraded from the proposed repository.  I have found that the old
> IBM Viavoice speech engine works great with pulseaudio and Gnome
> Speech Services, when using the IBM Viavoice GNOME Speech Driver.
> However, the espeak driver still gets cut off and choppy, and is
> basically unusable.
>
> I would recommend to anyone out there who prefers Viavoice over espeak
> to just install it, and don't bother removing pulseaudio or installing
> speech-dispatcher to get espeak working.
>
>
>
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Untested vinux/ubuntu 9.04 x64 ISO available

[Bill Cox]

I have put a "developer" version of "vinux" on my home server which in
theory is similar to vinux 1.5, but based on Ubuntu 9.04 x64.  It
requires a DVD or USB key to install, since it's about 1.2G.  I've
labeled it 'alpha1', but that's generous, since I've never tried
installing it!  I don't have another machine capable of it right now.

If anyone has a machine and time to test it, I would appreciate it.
Your machine should have >= 1gig RAM, be 64-bit capable, and it should
have a fairly recent ATI or Nvidia graphics card capable of supporting
Compiz.  If you succeed in installing it, I recommend installing the
voxin Viavoice package, as described in the document on the desktop.

This version installs the most recent source code for atk, at-spi, and
orca, in your home directory.  It also pulls packages from Ubuntu's
'proposed' repository, and it has many developer tools pre-installed.

The ISO is at:

http://www.billrocks.org/vinux_ubuntu9.04_amd64_alpha1.iso

Your download speed will be pretty pathetic, since I only have about
40KB/sec upload.  If I can get the first major bugs fixed, I'll respin
the ISO, and find a nicer home for it.

Thanks,
Bill

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Voxin voices work great, espeak not so much in Ubuntu 9.04 x64

[Bill Cox]

I'm running the latest code for atk, at-spi, orca, and compiz.  I also
have upgraded from the proposed repository.  I have found that the old
IBM Viavoice speech engine works great with pulseaudio and Gnome
Speech Services, when using the IBM Viavoice GNOME Speech Driver.
However, the espeak driver still gets cut off and choppy, and is
basically unusable.

I would recommend to anyone out there who prefers Viavoice over espeak
to just install it, and don't bother removing pulseaudio or installing
speech-dispatcher to get espeak working.

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Re: ubuntu 9.04 accessibility

[Bill Cox]

I also have managed to get a fairly stable version of Ubuntu 9.04 x64,
but I followed a different route.  I didn't have to un-install or stop
using any major package, including pulseaudio, compiz, and Gnome
Speech Services.  I don't need speech-dispatcher.  Basically, I
updated to the bleeding-edge version of several packages, as described
at

http://live.gnome.org/Orca/UbuntuJaunty#preview

However, I do not recommend blind/VI users follow this bleeding-edge
approach.  Your approach has less risk.  It's nice to see, though,
that better accessibility is coming down the pipe.

Bill

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Guy Schlosser wrote:
> I got a very stable ubuntu 9.04 system by following directions at the
> following URL.  This bipasses pulseaudio and uses alsa for
> everything.  If anyone has any questions, let me know.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Guy
> http://idyllictux.wordpress.com/2009/04/21/ubuntu-904-jaunty-keeping-the-beast-pulseaudio-at-bay/
>
>
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Re: Installing latest at-spi

[Bill Cox]

I have similar warnings when building on Ubuntu 9.04 x64.  However, I
don't get the last line:

Makefile.am:13: GCONF_SCHEMAS_INSTALL does not appear in AM_CONDITIONAL

I Googled GCONF_SCHEMAS_INSTALL, and found this:

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/tracker-list/2006-October/msg00120.html

My guess is the x32 source is a bit more recent than the x64, so
you're seeing this bug while I don't.  It sounds like you should try
commenting out the lines in Makefile.am, starting at 13.  It should
look like:

if GCONF_SCHEMAS_INSTALL
#install-data-local:
#if test -z "$(DESTDIR)" ; then \
#for p in $(schemas_DATA) ; do \

#GCONF_CONFIG_SOURCE=$(GCONF_SCHEMA_CONFIG_SOURCE) $(GCONFTOOL)
--makefile-install-rule $(top_builddir)/data/$$p ; \
#done \
#fi
#else
install-data-local:
#endif

Hopefully that will work.

Bill


On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 10:51 AM, Storm Dragon wrote:
> Hi,
> I have tried to install the latest versions of atk and at-spi.  Atk
> installed correctly, but I get errors when trying to install at-spi.  Here's
> what I did, from the instructions on the Orca wiki:
> http://live.gnome.org/Orca/DownloadInstall
> ./autogen.sh --prefix=/usr --libexecdir=/usr/lib/at-spi
> Returns several errors/warnings.  Here's the output from that command.  This
> is on Ubuntu Jaunty 64 bit:
> checking for autoconf >= 2.53...
>   testing autoconf2.50... not found.
>   testing autoconf... found 2.63
> checking for automake >= 1.9...
>   testing automake-1.10... found 1.10.2
> checking for libtool >= 1.5...
>   testing libtoolize... found 2.2.6
> checking for glib-gettext >= 2.2.0...
>   testing glib-gettextize... found 2.20.1
> checking for intltool >= 0.30...
>   testing intltoolize... found 0.40.6
> checking for pkg-config >= 0.14.0...
>   testing pkg-config... found 0.22
> checking for gtk-doc >= 1.0...
>   testing gtkdocize... found 1.11
> Checking for required M4 macros...
> Checking for forbidden M4 macros...
> Processing ./configure.in
> Running libtoolize...
> libtoolize: putting auxiliary files in `.'.
> libtoolize: copying file `./ltmain.sh'
> libtoolize: Consider adding `AC_CONFIG_MACRO_DIR([m4])' to configure.in
> libtoolize: rerunning libtoolize, to keep the correct libtool macros in
> libtoolize: Consider adding `-I m4' to ACLOCAL_AMFLAGS in Makefile.am.
> Running glib-gettextize... Ignore non-fatal messages.
> Copying file mkinstalldirs
> Copying file po/Makefile.in.in
>
> Please add the files
>   codeset.m4 gettext.m4 glibc21.m4 iconv.m4 isc-posix.m4 lcmessage.m4
>   progtest.m4
> from the /aclocal directory to your autoconf macro directory
> or directly to your aclocal.m4 file.
> You will also need config.guess and config.sub, which you can get from
> ftp://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/config/.
>
> Running intltoolize...
> Running gtkdocize...
> Running aclocal-1.10...
> configure.in:50: warning: macro `AM_GCONF_SOURCE_2' not found in librar
> Running autoconf...
> Running autoheader...
> autoheader: WARNING: Using auxiliary files such as `acconfig.h', `confi
> autoheader: WARNING: and `config.h.top', to define templates for `confi
> autoheader: WARNING: is deprecated and discouraged.
> autoheader:
> autoheader: WARNING: Using the third argument of `AC_DEFINE' and
> autoheader: WARNING: `AC_DEFINE_UNQUOTED' allows one to define a templa
> autoheader: WARNING: `acconfig.h':
> autoheader:
> autoheader: WARNING:   AC_DEFINE([NEED_FUNC_MAIN], 1,
> autoheader: [Define if a function `main' is needed.])
> autoheader:
> autoheader: WARNING: More sophisticated templates can also be produced,
> autoheader: WARNING: documentation.
> Running automake-1.10...
> atk-bridge/Makefile.am:23: libbonobo-2: non-POSIX variable name
> atk-bridge/Makefile.am:23: liboaf-2: non-POSIX variable name
> atk-bridge/Makefile.am:23: libORBit-2: non-POSIX variable name
> atk-bridge/Makefile.am:23: libat-spi: non-POSIX variable name
> docs/reference/idl/Makefile.am:18:  docs/reference/idl/Makefile.am:26:  Makefile.am:13: GCONF_SCHEMAS_INSTALL does not appear in AM_CONDITIONAL
>
> Check out the Storm Dragon blog:
> http://www.stormdragon.us/
>
> --
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> Ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility
>
>

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Compiling Compiz from source

[Bill Cox]

Sorry for this newbie package question.

I am trying to track down some Comiz issues on Ubuntu 9.04 x64 in
communicating with Orca.  I think I've installed the latest Compiz, as
I've added this to my sources.list:

## Proposed
deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ jaunty-proposed main restricted
universe multiverse
deb-src http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ jaunty-proposed main
restricted universe multiverse

## Compiz
deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/compiz/ubuntu jaunty main
deb-src http://ppa.launchpad.net/compiz/ubuntu jaunty main

I've build Compiz from source using:

sudo apt-get build-dep compiz
apt-get source -b compiz

This creates a compiz-0.8.2 directory, and builds Compiz with no
errors, but lots of warnings.  I find it built the executable I'm
trying to debug in:

compiz-0.8.2/obj-x86_64-linux-gnu/gtk/window-decorator/gtk-window-decorator

However, it's only 5,900 bytes, while /usr/bin/gtk-window-decorator is
over 90KB.  When I run it, it functions properly as a window decorator
for Compiz, except that the static switcher then does not work with
Orca's hack to work with the switcher.

I do not understand why my new gtk-window-decorator is different than
the one installed.  What should I do to get the most current version
for debugging?

Thanks,
Bill

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Success with Ubuntu 9.04 x64

[Bill Cox]

I've installed various 64-bit Linux systems over the last week, and
I'm now back to Ubuntu 9.04 x64.

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Re: Future of accessibility under Ubuntu

[Bill Cox]

I have to eat a little crow now.  I installed Ubuntu 8.10 x64, and had
most of the same stability problems I found in Ubuntu 9.04 x64.  So,
the problems I've seen are probably somewhat related to the x64
distros, and going back in time to older distros will probably just
make things worse, as 64-bit distros have been improving rapidly.
While I an still see OK, I'm going to try and use recent versions of
x64 Debian and Ubuntu, and I'll try and help track down the bugs.

Bill

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Bill Cox wrote:
> I hope my criticism in this e-mail is taken as intended - constructive
> criticism, rather than pointless ranting.  I would like to raise a
> red-flag at Canonical with this post.  Ubuntu 9.04 is a disaster for the
> visually impaired.  Vinux, previously based on Ubuntu, has been forced
> to switch future development to Debian branches.  Until now, Ubuntu has
> had a great reputation for supporting accessibility relative to other
> distros, but 9.04 has trashed that.
>
> If Canonical cares about support for the visually impaired, then it may
> be time to mount a significant effort to put out this fire.  On every
> blog I'm reading, the visually impaired are recommending that users
> switch away from Ubuntu.  I am currently running Orca and Ubuntu 9.04,
> and I have to offer that same advice.  It's more than just removing
> pulseaudio.  I've hacked problems for a week straight, and Orca is still
> not functioning properly.  There are at least a dozen major problems,
> and not all of them have work-arounds yet.  Clearly there was zero
> testing of Orca for 9.04.
>
> At a minimum, if Ubuntu plans on having some releases that are
> accessible (like 8.10), and others that aren't (like 9.04), then
> removing Orca from the unaccessible versions, and posting clear guidance
> for the visually impaired would be a good step.  If Ubuntu wants to own
> the accessibility space for the visually impaired, it's Ubuntu's for the
> taking.  Putting one skilled developer on the issue full time to work
> with vinux (previously Vibuntu), should do it.  Otherwise, I suspect
> that Vinux will wind up owning this space based on Debian.  There's some
> sense to this, as any good work done in Debian eventually gets inherited
> by Ubuntu and several other great distros.  However, making Linux easy
> to use is Ubuntu's primary focus, so it makes sense to base Vinux on
> Ubuntu.  Given the state of 9.04, I intend to help the Vinux guys build
> on Debian, but I will sorely miss Ubuntu.
>
> I hope this is taken as a call to action.  I don't mean to offend
> anyone.
>
> Bill
>
>

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Re: Cygwin / Dragon / SAPI / Linux

[Bill Cox]

The thought of getting Naturally speaking working with Linux is very
exciting, and I may be able to put in some hours on the Linux side.
>From what I've read, it's possible to get NS Professional working with
the built-in text editor, but you can't get text to focus on any Linux
app.  Getting that working would be huge.

As for cygwin, I don't know how I would have remained a programmer in
the late 90's without cygwin, Dragon Dictate, and emacs.  Back then, I
created 1,600 custom Emacs macros to do specific tasks by voice
control.  It worked well, but was very specific to my job function,
and not easily transferable.  There are others who prefer the lighter
MinGW (Minimalist Gnu Windows), and that seems to also work well.

Bill

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 10:50 AM, Eric S. Johansson wrote:
> Thomas Lloyd wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Not sure if you have tried Cygwin but that does allow you to open both a
>> full gnome desktop and individual applications within windows and in
>> theory should allow you to control the system remotely over ssh via
>> Dragon.
>>
>> You can run the system full screen and you would not know that you were
>> even using a windows system.
>>
>> If you would like further information let me know as i have worked quite
>> extensively on such setups.
>
> gack.  have I ever told you just how badly cygwin and I get along? The past
> three times I installed it, if those my XP environment so badly I had to
> reinstall... everything  I guess another option would be to use the Ubuntu
> Windows Linux merge.
>
> I think I'm reluctant to use these to because Windows always degrades for me. 
> I
> might be able to keep her from degrading if I don't run any applications on
> Windows except the bare minimum but, it always degrades.
>
> I liked the purity of running limits as my host. It always feels like home and
> like its the system I should be using at a deep and fundamental emotional 
> level.
> I cannot emphasize enough how much it feels like my computer spiritual
> philosophical home.
>
> but, as I often say, functionality trumps politics so I should drag out a 250 
> GB
> laptop drive and start hacking away. Two guiding questions. I want to keep all
> of my data on a separate filesystem/partition. If I'm not using Windows
> applications for anything, is it possible to do this? can I run Thunderbird
> under cygwin?  can I have a separate partition running ext4 or nilfs? I 
> suspect
> these two are true with ubuntu windows merge
>
> Can I run a virtual machine in addition to cygwin/uwm?
> Kennedy was all on Windows 7 because of lost a Windows XP disc with sata 
> drivers
> as well as my video drivers and my WebCam drivers etc. etc. (God, I thought
> linux aged poorly with regards to drivers. You have no idea how good it is in
> comparison to Windows)
> .>
>> As a side note i have been integrating the Microsoft SAPI interface into
>> Linux and have been mainly concentrating on text to speech but there is
>> the speech to text interface that I have tested but not yet done any
>> work on. I see that Dragon also has the potential to have such an
>> interface developed in the same fashion that I have created for SAPI. I
>> have quite a large amount of experience and as along as we can get the
>> bare minimum components of Dragon running under Wine your away.
>>
>> I could do with a sneak peak at the details on the Dragon scripting
>> interface to see if it supports COM automation under windows. If so it
>> will be more straight forward for me.
>
> don't bother listing interface. (I think) take a look at natlink and 
> dragonfly.
>  natlink is a low-level exporting of some Dragon interfaces into Python.
> Dragonfly places a higher Lowell wrapper around these interfaces and makes it
> easier to work with the terms of grammar and action code. For what it's worth,
> people using these easy interfaces to speech recognition are almost 
> universally
> Python driven in part because you can write Python code using speech 
> recognition
> with relatively small modifications to your environment. It's not very 
> efficient
> but, it is possible
>
> http://code.google.com/p/dragonfly/  will get you started in the right 
> direction
> with all components
>
>>
>> I have a little bit of experience of the SAPI speech recognition system
>> and never rated it really, that is why i have left it alone till now.
>> Anyone who has experience of it can let me know otherwise.
>
> We can help you find people with experience. Whether they will talk to me is
> quite another story. :-) but we will do a weekend.
>
>>
>> I would love someone with experience of the Vista SDK to come on board
>> and help me suck out the SAPI 5.3 components to see if we can get them
>> running under wine. Any volunteers?
>
> This is going to be a problem. Microsoft just cut back on their speech
> recognition group if rumor  a thing). We might feel the find some of the 
> people
> on the street and they might be a let help so, again we'll take a look.
>
> --

Re: Future of accessibility under Ubuntu

[Bill Cox]

On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 15:13 -0400, Eric S. Johansson wrote:
> Bill Cox wrote:
> 
> > If Canonical cares about support for the visually impaired, then it may
> > be time to mount a significant effort to put out this fire.  On every
> > blog I'm reading, the visually impaired are recommending that users
> > switch away from Ubuntu.  I am currently running Orca and Ubuntu 9.04,
> > and I have to offer that same advice.  It's more than just removing
> > pulseaudio.  I've hacked problems for a week straight, and Orca is still
> > not functioning properly.  There are at least a dozen major problems,
> > and not all of them have work-arounds yet.  Clearly there was zero
> > testing of Orca for 9.04.
> 
> I hope you do not consider me root for pointing out the accessibility doesn't
> stop with the blind. As much as you may be dependent on text-to-speech, I am
> extremely dependent on speech to text (i.e. speech recognition). Naturally
> speaking kind of works under wine and it really needs some dedicated
> effort/money/something to get it to the point where we can dictate into any of
> the next application. I have some ideas on how to bridge that gap but first we
> need a stable NaturallySpeaking.

I agree completely.  In fact, for three years, from 1996 to 1999, I had
to use Dragon Dictate and Naturally Speaking to control Emacs in order
to keep my job as a programmer.  Porting Naturally Speaking would be my
#1 enhancement request if I could get it.  I'm not much of a Wine
hacker, though.

>  current open source speech recognition systems are a waste of time and money.
> They are the wrong tool for the application, says the man with 15 years
> experience using speech recognition.

As a man with three years experience, and being familiar with Sphinx and
such, I have to agree, though some of the open-source efforts are
commendable.

Bill


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Future of accessibility under Ubuntu

[Bill Cox]

I hope my criticism in this e-mail is taken as intended - constructive
criticism, rather than pointless ranting.  I would like to raise a
red-flag at Canonical with this post.  Ubuntu 9.04 is a disaster for the
visually impaired.  Vinux, previously based on Ubuntu, has been forced
to switch future development to Debian branches.  Until now, Ubuntu has
had a great reputation for supporting accessibility relative to other
distros, but 9.04 has trashed that.

If Canonical cares about support for the visually impaired, then it may
be time to mount a significant effort to put out this fire.  On every
blog I'm reading, the visually impaired are recommending that users
switch away from Ubuntu.  I am currently running Orca and Ubuntu 9.04,
and I have to offer that same advice.  It's more than just removing
pulseaudio.  I've hacked problems for a week straight, and Orca is still
not functioning properly.  There are at least a dozen major problems,
and not all of them have work-arounds yet.  Clearly there was zero
testing of Orca for 9.04.

At a minimum, if Ubuntu plans on having some releases that are
accessible (like 8.10), and others that aren't (like 9.04), then
removing Orca from the unaccessible versions, and posting clear guidance
for the visually impaired would be a good step.  If Ubuntu wants to own
the accessibility space for the visually impaired, it's Ubuntu's for the
taking.  Putting one skilled developer on the issue full time to work
with vinux (previously Vibuntu), should do it.  Otherwise, I suspect
that Vinux will wind up owning this space based on Debian.  There's some
sense to this, as any good work done in Debian eventually gets inherited
by Ubuntu and several other great distros.  However, making Linux easy
to use is Ubuntu's primary focus, so it makes sense to base Vinux on
Ubuntu.  Given the state of 9.04, I intend to help the Vinux guys build
on Debian, but I will sorely miss Ubuntu.

I hope this is taken as a call to action.  I don't mean to offend
anyone.

Bill


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