Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
On 13/04/10 15:24, Michael wrote: If you look at this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AustralianTeam/MailingLists the Google Group is the 1st one in the list, yet no one knows much about it. Why is this and if it isn't an important part of Ubuntu-AU communication why is it the first one in the list? Please don't give me alphabetical order either because Gmane is before Google in alphabetical order. FWIW, i edited that page to make it a little clearer that the others are unofficial alternatives, and to alphabetise the list. <>-- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 16:25 +0930, mike james wrote: > Im confused, but also fairly ignorant of the current structure. Hence > I have a few questions about this debate. > > > What are the primary functions of this group as it currently stands? To promote Ubuntu, essentially. We don't have a language barrier to contend to as such. > What do other Ubuntu groups do that we dont? I'm going to take it that you mean "other LoCo groups" here. As mentioned before, some deal with bridging the language gap. We don't need to find help on English pages and translate them to compatriots who can't. Of course, localised assistance regarding local ISPs, mirrors, language packs (primarily things like garbage vs trash, etc). Release parties to celebrate the new releases of Ubuntu. Finding someone who you may be able to meet face-to-face if they're willing to help that way. Basically, camaraderie. Some groups attend local fairs/expos; This requires a band of people in the vincinity to take up the initiative to seek out the resources for this kind of thing. We do actually do this to a degree. Paul Schulz and friends in Adelaide does it at various events there. The Sydney folk have done various Sydney events. Those of us who meet up for conferences often do meet-and-greet or info booth (if appropriate) kinds of things at said conferences. A group of friends could easily set up at the local computer fair/swapmeet and hand out CDs. It just takes a bit of creative organising. These are the primary actions of LoCo groups in general. > What do we want to do, that we currently cant do? The same thing we want to do every night, Pinky. Take over the world! Seriously though, we can do anything we want to, it just takes someone who have the time and locality to do it. There's ways to overcome minor financial hurdles, it just takes asking the right people. Announce your idea on the mailing list and once there's a plan email the mailing list again and then contact us (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AustralianTeam/ContactUs) to get it on the site. There's no permission-seeking required. It's really that easy. > On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Michael wrote: > You didn't notice the sentence immediately preceding it? They > are in > the same paragraph. > > As for "hugenormous mega mail" well I noticed a few issues in > this > group even before I started posting. That was my way of > letting > everyone know that to the outside world this group looks quite > dysfunctional. > > On Apr 13, 3:56 pm, Melissa Draper > wrote: > > I had not even noticed that part of that hugenormous mega > mail until > > today when you said you'd asked about the porn before and > Jared and I > > scoured the list for the previous mentions you alluded to. > > > > Sorry for not making that clear below. > > > -- > > Melissa Draper > > > > w:http://meldraweb.com&http://geekosophical.net > > p: +61 4 0472 2736 > > > > -- > > ubuntu-au mailing list > > > > ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.comhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au > > -- > > > ubuntu-au mailing list > ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au > > > -- Melissa Draper w: http://meldraweb.com & http://geekosophical.net p: +61 4 0472 2736 -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Im confused, but also fairly ignorant of the current structure. Hence I have a few questions about this debate. What are the primary functions of this group as it currently stands? What do other Ubuntu groups do that we dont? What do we want to do, that we currently cant do? On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Michael wrote: > You didn't notice the sentence immediately preceding it? They are in > the same paragraph. > > As for "hugenormous mega mail" well I noticed a few issues in this > group even before I started posting. That was my way of letting > everyone know that to the outside world this group looks quite > dysfunctional. > > On Apr 13, 3:56 pm, Melissa Draper wrote: > > I had not even noticed that part of that hugenormous mega mail until > > today when you said you'd asked about the porn before and Jared and I > > scoured the list for the previous mentions you alluded to. > > > > Sorry for not making that clear below. > > -- > > Melissa Draper > > > > w:http://meldraweb.com&http://geekosophical.net > > p: +61 4 0472 2736 > > > > -- > > ubuntu-au mailing list > > ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.comhttps:// > lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au > > -- > ubuntu-au mailing list > ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au > -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
You didn't notice the sentence immediately preceding it? They are in the same paragraph. As for "hugenormous mega mail" well I noticed a few issues in this group even before I started posting. That was my way of letting everyone know that to the outside world this group looks quite dysfunctional. On Apr 13, 3:56 pm, Melissa Draper wrote: > I had not even noticed that part of that hugenormous mega mail until > today when you said you'd asked about the porn before and Jared and I > scoured the list for the previous mentions you alluded to. > > Sorry for not making that clear below. > -- > Melissa Draper > > w:http://meldraweb.com&http://geekosophical.net > p: +61 4 0472 2736 > > -- > ubuntu-au mailing list > ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.comhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 22:44 -0700, Michael wrote: > So you never thought to ask me what I was referring to? Jared did. > > I hope no one thinks I am going after anyone, I am just trying to > point out a few flaws with how things are atm. I had not even noticed that part of that hugenormous mega mail until today when you said you'd asked about the porn before and Jared and I scoured the list for the previous mentions you alluded to. Sorry for not making that clear below. > On Apr 13, 3:36 pm, Melissa Draper wrote: > > On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 22:00 -0700, Michael wrote: > > > Robert, take a look at this thread. I don't know if your indicating > > > you aren't reading this list often, if you are selective in your > > > readings, or if you just don't remember reading it. It doesn't really > > > matter what the situation with your not knowing about it what does > > > matter is it has taken numerous mentions to get any response on the > > > issue, and thanks to Jared for taking a look at it. > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/ubuntu-au/browse_thread/thread/312fcba... > > > > The part where you say "Has anyone had a look at the membership list > > lately and seen how many references to porn there are in it?" or > > elsewhere? > > > > Yes, I saw that. I looked at our launchpad group and the wiki member > > list and found nothing of the sort. > > > > The google group has /never/ been represented as "the membership list" > > of the team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 13, 2:40 pm, Robert Collins wrote: > > > > On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 13:23 +1000, Andrew Gaydon wrote: > > > > > Why does it take a debate like this to 'Raise' this issue? > > > > > > > This is not the first time that Michael has raised it! > > > > > > Its the first time I've seen it mentioned. > > > > > > All official Ubuntu mailing lists are maintained [system settings] by > > > > Canonical IS staff and administered [moderation, membership tasks, > > > > per-list settings] by folk in the relevant community [in our case, > > > > ubuntu-au folk]. > > > > > > Removing messages in the list history can only be done by the IS staff > > > > -https://lists.ubuntu.com/liststhe contact address there. > > > > > > > So many questions go unanswered on this mailing list. > > > > > > That usually means noone has an answer. > > > > > > -Rob > > > > > > signature.asc > > > > < 1KViewDownload > > > > > > -- > > > > ubuntu-au mailing list > > > > ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.comhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au > > > > -- > > Melissa Draper > > > > w:http://meldraweb.com&http://geekosophical.net > > p: +61 4 0472 2736 > > > > -- > > ubuntu-au mailing list > > ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.comhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au > -- Melissa Draper w: http://meldraweb.com & http://geekosophical.net p: +61 4 0472 2736 -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
With reference to the above answer to Melissa let me just post exactly what I said before. 2. The membership list for Ubuntu-AU google group REALLY (not shouting just making sure its understood how serious this issue is) needs cleaning up. Has anyone had a look at the membership list lately and seen how many references to porn there are in it? Please note the mention of Ubuntu-AU google group. > > Yes, I saw that. I looked at our launchpad group and the wiki member > > list and found nothing of the sort. > > > The google group has /never/ been represented as "the membership list" > > of the team. > > -- > > Melissa Draper > > > w:http://meldraweb.com&http://geekosophical.net > > p: +61 4 0472 2736 > > > -- > > ubuntu-au mailing list > > ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.comhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au > > -- > ubuntu-au mailing list > ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.comhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
So you never thought to ask me what I was referring to? Jared did. I hope no one thinks I am going after anyone, I am just trying to point out a few flaws with how things are atm. On Apr 13, 3:36 pm, Melissa Draper wrote: > On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 22:00 -0700, Michael wrote: > > Robert, take a look at this thread. I don't know if your indicating > > you aren't reading this list often, if you are selective in your > > readings, or if you just don't remember reading it. It doesn't really > > matter what the situation with your not knowing about it what does > > matter is it has taken numerous mentions to get any response on the > > issue, and thanks to Jared for taking a look at it. > > >http://groups.google.com/group/ubuntu-au/browse_thread/thread/312fcba... > > The part where you say "Has anyone had a look at the membership list > lately and seen how many references to porn there are in it?" or > elsewhere? > > Yes, I saw that. I looked at our launchpad group and the wiki member > list and found nothing of the sort. > > The google group has /never/ been represented as "the membership list" > of the team. > > > > > > > > > On Apr 13, 2:40 pm, Robert Collins wrote: > > > On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 13:23 +1000, Andrew Gaydon wrote: > > > > Why does it take a debate like this to 'Raise' this issue? > > > > > This is not the first time that Michael has raised it! > > > > Its the first time I've seen it mentioned. > > > > All official Ubuntu mailing lists are maintained [system settings] by > > > Canonical IS staff and administered [moderation, membership tasks, > > > per-list settings] by folk in the relevant community [in our case, > > > ubuntu-au folk]. > > > > Removing messages in the list history can only be done by the IS staff > > > -https://lists.ubuntu.com/liststhe contact address there. > > > > > So many questions go unanswered on this mailing list. > > > > That usually means noone has an answer. > > > > -Rob > > > > signature.asc > > > < 1KViewDownload > > > > -- > > > ubuntu-au mailing list > > > ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.comhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au > > -- > Melissa Draper > > w:http://meldraweb.com&http://geekosophical.net > p: +61 4 0472 2736 > > -- > ubuntu-au mailing list > ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.comhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
They are still on the website and that is how I joined up. I understand official/unofficial and internal/external but the reality is they are all portals to Ubuntu-AU and someone should have a reasonable knowledge of what is contained on them. People keep saying get in and do what you can well I keep offering to help clean the Google aspect up, more than once btw, until someone allows me to do it I can't. Thank goodness Jared is working on it. On Apr 13, 3:31 pm, Melissa Draper wrote: > On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 22:24 -0700, Michael wrote: > > If you look at this pagehttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/AustralianTeam/MailingLists > > the Google Group is the 1st one in the list, yet no one knows much > > about it. Why is this and if it isn't an important part of Ubuntu-AU > > communication why is it the first one in the list? Please don't give > > me alphabetical order either because Gmane is before Google in > > alphabetical order. > > Those are /all/ external unofficial ways to access the list. > > -- > Melissa Draper > > w:http://meldraweb.com&http://geekosophical.net > p: +61 4 0472 2736 > > -- > ubuntu-au mailing list > ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.comhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
> > lets say that tragically (fictional only please!) Melissa falls of the face of the earth, who would know how to continue in the Loco contact role? Why do you need to ask us that? you can answer it for yourself! See what I did there? That, ladies and gentleman, is how (as stands currently) you interact with the community in a "contact" role. On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 11:59 AM, Scott Evans wrote: > Lets take this from another view point... > > lets say that tragically (fictional only please!) Melissa falls of the > face of the earth, who would know how to continue in the Loco contact > role? > > This is a major flaw in most organisations, they don't contend for the > future. We are not immortal, and people come and go... > > -- > Scott Evans > > -- > ubuntu-au mailing list > ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au > > -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 22:00 -0700, Michael wrote: > Robert, take a look at this thread. I don't know if your indicating > you aren't reading this list often, if you are selective in your > readings, or if you just don't remember reading it. It doesn't really > matter what the situation with your not knowing about it what does > matter is it has taken numerous mentions to get any response on the > issue, and thanks to Jared for taking a look at it. > > http://groups.google.com/group/ubuntu-au/browse_thread/thread/312fcbaa191a5718 The part where you say "Has anyone had a look at the membership list lately and seen how many references to porn there are in it?" or elsewhere? Yes, I saw that. I looked at our launchpad group and the wiki member list and found nothing of the sort. The google group has /never/ been represented as "the membership list" of the team. > > On Apr 13, 2:40 pm, Robert Collins wrote: > > On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 13:23 +1000, Andrew Gaydon wrote: > > > Why does it take a debate like this to 'Raise' this issue? > > > > > This is not the first time that Michael has raised it! > > > > Its the first time I've seen it mentioned. > > > > All official Ubuntu mailing lists are maintained [system settings] by > > Canonical IS staff and administered [moderation, membership tasks, > > per-list settings] by folk in the relevant community [in our case, > > ubuntu-au folk]. > > > > Removing messages in the list history can only be done by the IS staff > > -https://lists.ubuntu.com/lists the contact address there. > > > > > So many questions go unanswered on this mailing list. > > > > That usually means noone has an answer. > > > > -Rob > > > > signature.asc > > < 1KViewDownload > > > > -- > > ubuntu-au mailing list > > ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.comhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au > -- Melissa Draper w: http://meldraweb.com & http://geekosophical.net p: +61 4 0472 2736 -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 22:24 -0700, Michael wrote: > If you look at this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AustralianTeam/MailingLists > the Google Group is the 1st one in the list, yet no one knows much > about it. Why is this and if it isn't an important part of Ubuntu-AU > communication why is it the first one in the list? Please don't give > me alphabetical order either because Gmane is before Google in > alphabetical order. > Those are /all/ external unofficial ways to access the list. -- Melissa Draper w: http://meldraweb.com & http://geekosophical.net p: +61 4 0472 2736 -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
If you look at this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AustralianTeam/MailingLists the Google Group is the 1st one in the list, yet no one knows much about it. Why is this and if it isn't an important part of Ubuntu-AU communication why is it the first one in the list? Please don't give me alphabetical order either because Gmane is before Google in alphabetical order. -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Well this is unfortunate isn't it, it shows that the "Leadership" doesn't know about everything that is happening here and this one of the public fronts to Ubuntu-AU. Why does it take so many mentions to get something to happen? Even if the people who should know don't know about it, someone should probably have made inquiries way before this, or is it just that people don't take stuff mentioned by "regular" members seriously? On Apr 13, 2:52 pm, Melissa Draper wrote: > On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 14:40 +1000, Robert Collins wrote: > > On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 13:23 +1000, Andrew Gaydon wrote: > > > Why does it take a debate like this to 'Raise' this issue? > > > > This is not the first time that Michael has raised it! > > > Its the first time I've seen it mentioned. > > > All official Ubuntu mailing lists are maintained [system settings] by > > Canonical IS staff and administered [moderation, membership tasks, > > per-list settings] by folk in the relevant community [in our case, > > ubuntu-au folk]. > > > Removing messages in the list history can only be done by the IS staff - > >https://lists.ubuntu.com/lists the contact address there. > > Jared has done some looking in to this. We believe that what Michael is > referring to is actually in the unofficial Google group that the real > mailing list has been linked in to for peoples convenience, and linked > to from the site because it is a resource even if unofficial. > > It seems there are a fair number of postings made to there that never > make it to the main list, but I'm not sure why that is -- I don't use > Google groups and haven't used (or admin'd one) in like 5 years or so. > > I'm trying to track down who actually "owns" that group so we can remove > the offending spambots. > > > > So many questions go unanswered on this mailing list. > > > That usually means noone has an answer. > > > -Rob > > -- > Melissa Draper > > w:http://meldraweb.com&http://geekosophical.net > > -- > ubuntu-au mailing list > ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.comhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Robert, take a look at this thread. I don't know if your indicating you aren't reading this list often, if you are selective in your readings, or if you just don't remember reading it. It doesn't really matter what the situation with your not knowing about it what does matter is it has taken numerous mentions to get any response on the issue, and thanks to Jared for taking a look at it. http://groups.google.com/group/ubuntu-au/browse_thread/thread/312fcbaa191a5718 On Apr 13, 2:40 pm, Robert Collins wrote: > On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 13:23 +1000, Andrew Gaydon wrote: > > Why does it take a debate like this to 'Raise' this issue? > > > This is not the first time that Michael has raised it! > > Its the first time I've seen it mentioned. > > All official Ubuntu mailing lists are maintained [system settings] by > Canonical IS staff and administered [moderation, membership tasks, > per-list settings] by folk in the relevant community [in our case, > ubuntu-au folk]. > > Removing messages in the list history can only be done by the IS staff > -https://lists.ubuntu.com/lists the contact address there. > > > So many questions go unanswered on this mailing list. > > That usually means noone has an answer. > > -Rob > > signature.asc > < 1KViewDownload > > -- > ubuntu-au mailing list > ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.comhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 14:40 +1000, Robert Collins wrote: > On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 13:23 +1000, Andrew Gaydon wrote: > > Why does it take a debate like this to 'Raise' this issue? > > > > This is not the first time that Michael has raised it! > > Its the first time I've seen it mentioned. > > All official Ubuntu mailing lists are maintained [system settings] by > Canonical IS staff and administered [moderation, membership tasks, > per-list settings] by folk in the relevant community [in our case, > ubuntu-au folk]. > > Removing messages in the list history can only be done by the IS staff - > https://lists.ubuntu.com/ lists the contact address there. Jared has done some looking in to this. We believe that what Michael is referring to is actually in the unofficial Google group that the real mailing list has been linked in to for peoples convenience, and linked to from the site because it is a resource even if unofficial. It seems there are a fair number of postings made to there that never make it to the main list, but I'm not sure why that is -- I don't use Google groups and haven't used (or admin'd one) in like 5 years or so. I'm trying to track down who actually "owns" that group so we can remove the offending spambots. > > So many questions go unanswered on this mailing list. > > That usually means noone has an answer. > > -Rob -- Melissa Draper w: http://meldraweb.com & http://geekosophical.net -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 13:23 +1000, Andrew Gaydon wrote: > Why does it take a debate like this to 'Raise' this issue? > > This is not the first time that Michael has raised it! Its the first time I've seen it mentioned. All official Ubuntu mailing lists are maintained [system settings] by Canonical IS staff and administered [moderation, membership tasks, per-list settings] by folk in the relevant community [in our case, ubuntu-au folk]. Removing messages in the list history can only be done by the IS staff - https://lists.ubuntu.com/ lists the contact address there. > So many questions go unanswered on this mailing list. That usually means noone has an answer. -Rob signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Why does it take a debate like this to 'Raise' this issue? This is not the first time that Michael has raised it! So many questions go unanswered on this mailing list. This is why people are so uninterested in making a contribution. There is no responsibility or accountability !! Why can't people see what is wrong with this picture. On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Jared Norris wrote: > Michael, > > I'm sorry to diverge a little here but I was wondering if you would be able > to email me these references to porn on the mailing list that has been > mentioned a couple of times now. As a mailing list admin I see my fair share > of spam from the list but the whole idea of the mailing list admin team (of > which I am only one of several) is to prevent this type of thing getting > through to the list. Other than the messages we cull from the list I am not > aware of anything else of dubious nature going to the list. If you can > please send it off list so we don't re-spam it again I will endeavour to > have it looked into and I will report back any findings made to you and the > list. > > Regards, > > Jared Norris > > > > On 13 April 2010 11:39, Michael wrote: > >> On Apr 13, 10:42 am, Peter Schwenke wrote: >> > I am of a similar opinion to Daniel with regard to bureaucracy. >> > However, I have been biting my tongue. >> > >> > The current set up is not stopping anybody from doing anything. >> >> Isn't it? Then why can't I get a straight answer to why does this >> mailing list have references to porn in it and how can I get rid of >> them? >> >> >> > IMO the effort spent on drawing up leadership plans and roadmaps could >> > be spent on testing and (for the more technical folk) fixing bugs >> > (providing patches). >> >> The issue here is the re-approval asks for a Roadmap, so it does need >> to be discussed. >> >> > If a package you are using has issues, investigate why and report it. >> > For example, you might see it has been fixed upstream. >> > >> > If you have some software you see that needs packaging for Ubuntu, >> > package it up. >> >> Totally beside the point with regards to this discussion. We are not >> talking about the entire Ubuntu community, instead we are talking >> about Ubuntu-AU. Mixing them up does nothing except for clouding the >> issue being discussed. >> >> > If you would like to do something in the wider community, send a message >> > to the list and see if you get help (and maybe advice) and do it. >> >> Like get the references to porn of the Mailing list membership list? >> >> > If you have the ability to answer questions on forums, put some effort >> > in to that. >> >> I already do and thats because this community is dysfunctional. >> >> > Then, after doing something, if you want a title or "belong", become an >> > Ubuntu member or something. >> >> In that process already but why can't people like me also want to help >> Ubuntu-AU expand. Why can't we have an open and honest discussion >> about our local scene instead of having the global scene thrown in to >> confuse the issue. >> >> > By doing the above some people will show leadership in organising >> something. >> >> Do you know how many people in this mailing list are seen to be active >> in the regular forum? Let me say that it looks like there aren't many >> of us there often. >> >> > IMO, having elections and boards and titles etc does not make any of >> > the above happen. If you have 9 people, some of their circumstances >> > will change, they'll no longer be available to contribute. I'm sure >> > many people here have been involved (or know others)in various clubs. >> > The same story Then you get the politics and vested interests and >> > perceived vested interests... and ... >> >> I really think you miss the point. This is a discussion about >> transparency and the real lack of it. If you don't want the system to >> change that is fine lets have a vote and see what the entire Ubuntu-AU >> community think and lets then honour that choice regardless of what it >> is. >> >> -- >> ubuntu-au mailing list >> ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au >> > > > -- > ubuntu-au mailing list > ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au > > -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Hi Jared, Thanks for your opinion. I agree with what you have said about Melissa, But she is only one person and at no time have I advocated that she be replaced. There are many things in your post that make sense and you probably can guess that I disagree with you on some. Can I ask you a question? Why do you think people have titles ? Why does Melissa have the title of "Team-contact" ? 'Leadership is not about telling others what to do' All that I am advocating is that the structure for a 'Team of leaders' be created and that they be visible. A process needs to be put into place to encourage 'people' to come forward. Nothing really changes in any other aspect of how ubuntu-au operates. Individuals can still come-up with 'projects', ask for help etc. You talk about 'BE the change' and this is what I have done in Brisbane. I organised the first release party. I did this with no 'prompting' or help from anybody. Possibly because I have experience in organising such things. "Others however may need help and encouragement." Who do they turn to ? The IRC: You may get a response (if somebody happens to be on at the same time) The Mailing list: You may get a response. Team Contact: You may get a response, this is one person who is expected to do everything & be everything. I hope that you get my point. With regards to my references about the other teams. Yes these other teams are created from larger populations, but once again this is not the point. The point is, these teams have a 'leadership-structure' with 'Titles'. A team can be organised in many ways. Everybody is not trying to be "Boss", I'm certainly not advocating that. I'm trying to "BE the change" and bring about discussion. These "Projects", how are they progressing ? Do people need help ? Nobody knows! Once again, thanks for your opinion, everybody is entitled to one. Regards, Andrew G. On Apr 13, 10:41 am, Jared Norris wrote: > Good morning/afternoon/evening Andrew and the rest of the Ubuntu-AU mailing > list. > > I have been watching these ongoing topics with interest and I personally > believe that the two viewpoints are both trying to accomplish positive > outcomes for the Ubuntu-AU team. But I also don't think the two different > philosophies are mutually exclusive by any means. I have taken some time to > try and organise my thoughts in a logical pattern and so I will work on > replying to statements Andrew has made to try and show my viewpoint (and > yes, I have read all the links you included in your email). I have put > Andrew's email in italics to try and make it easier to tell what is the > original email and what is my response. > > *On 12 April 2010 12:43, AndrewG wrote: > > > > > LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP > > > Prologue: 25th March, Melissa Draper (our team contact) was sent an > > email outlining some of the following in detail. I am still awaiting > > a reply (maybe she is on holidays), thus my reason for a public post > > to the Ubuntu-au community. (I wish that she had replied so we could > > have made a joint post) > > > LEADERSHIP: From the correspondence that I have had with Melissa, she > > informs me that > > "The contact is not the dog's body nor is it the mastermind." > > Further, "I'm responsible for allocating privileges as allowed to us > > by Canonical. I'm the team /contact/. I'm the person who interfaces > > between Canonical and the team members." > > > So my conclusion is that the 'Team Contact' is NOT the team leader > > (contrary to popular belief), but a 'Conduit' between Canonical, the > > Community Council and the Ubuntu-au community. (and also that the Team > > leader should convey the sentiment of the ubuntu-au community) > > > Thus, Ubuntu-au is a collection of people with no leadership, a group > > of individuals trying to further the goals set down in the wiki page > > 'The Australian team focuses on distributing, advertising and > > demonstrating Ubuntu within Australia' > >* > > To my knowledge all this is correct, Melissa is the team contact. I > personally do not know of anyone active in the Ubuntu-AU that could come > close to knowing enough about how Canonical works to replace what Melissa > contributes to us all. I'm not against other people learning about these > sorts of things but I am pretty sure it would require a fair bit of effort > for a person to become familiar with all that is required and wouldn't be > learnt overnight. Melissa, I tip my hat to you, thank you for your efforts > and I hope other people are willing to put their hand up to help you out. > > *> > > > I also asked Melissa the following > > "What is your vision ?" > > Her reply > > "My vision is for a team that is constructive and contains people who > > think up initiatives or support others rather than waiting for > > orders." > > My reply > > "How do we encourage & support constructive people? > > Some people need to be given guidance, in my experience there are > > three types of people. > > 1. Lea
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Michael, I'm sorry to diverge a little here but I was wondering if you would be able to email me these references to porn on the mailing list that has been mentioned a couple of times now. As a mailing list admin I see my fair share of spam from the list but the whole idea of the mailing list admin team (of which I am only one of several) is to prevent this type of thing getting through to the list. Other than the messages we cull from the list I am not aware of anything else of dubious nature going to the list. If you can please send it off list so we don't re-spam it again I will endeavour to have it looked into and I will report back any findings made to you and the list. Regards, Jared Norris On 13 April 2010 11:39, Michael wrote: > On Apr 13, 10:42 am, Peter Schwenke wrote: > > I am of a similar opinion to Daniel with regard to bureaucracy. > > However, I have been biting my tongue. > > > > The current set up is not stopping anybody from doing anything. > > Isn't it? Then why can't I get a straight answer to why does this > mailing list have references to porn in it and how can I get rid of > them? > > > > IMO the effort spent on drawing up leadership plans and roadmaps could > > be spent on testing and (for the more technical folk) fixing bugs > > (providing patches). > > The issue here is the re-approval asks for a Roadmap, so it does need > to be discussed. > > > If a package you are using has issues, investigate why and report it. > > For example, you might see it has been fixed upstream. > > > > If you have some software you see that needs packaging for Ubuntu, > > package it up. > > Totally beside the point with regards to this discussion. We are not > talking about the entire Ubuntu community, instead we are talking > about Ubuntu-AU. Mixing them up does nothing except for clouding the > issue being discussed. > > > If you would like to do something in the wider community, send a message > > to the list and see if you get help (and maybe advice) and do it. > > Like get the references to porn of the Mailing list membership list? > > > If you have the ability to answer questions on forums, put some effort > > in to that. > > I already do and thats because this community is dysfunctional. > > > Then, after doing something, if you want a title or "belong", become an > > Ubuntu member or something. > > In that process already but why can't people like me also want to help > Ubuntu-AU expand. Why can't we have an open and honest discussion > about our local scene instead of having the global scene thrown in to > confuse the issue. > > > By doing the above some people will show leadership in organising > something. > > Do you know how many people in this mailing list are seen to be active > in the regular forum? Let me say that it looks like there aren't many > of us there often. > > > IMO, having elections and boards and titles etc does not make any of > > the above happen. If you have 9 people, some of their circumstances > > will change, they'll no longer be available to contribute. I'm sure > > many people here have been involved (or know others)in various clubs. > > The same story Then you get the politics and vested interests and > > perceived vested interests... and ... > > I really think you miss the point. This is a discussion about > transparency and the real lack of it. If you don't want the system to > change that is fine lets have a vote and see what the entire Ubuntu-AU > community think and lets then honour that choice regardless of what it > is. > > -- > ubuntu-au mailing list > ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au > -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Lets take this from another view point... lets say that tragically (fictional only please!) Melissa falls of the face of the earth, who would know how to continue in the Loco contact role? This is a major flaw in most organisations, they don't contend for the future. We are not immortal, and people come and go... -- Scott Evans signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
On Apr 13, 10:41 am, Jared Norris wrote: > To my knowledge all this is correct, Melissa is the team contact. I > personally do not know of anyone active in the Ubuntu-AU that could come > close to knowing enough about how Canonical works to replace what Melissa > contributes to us all. I'm not against other people learning about these > sorts of things but I am pretty sure it would require a fair bit of effort > for a person to become familiar with all that is required and wouldn't be > learnt overnight. Melissa, I tip my hat to you, thank you for your efforts > and I hope other people are willing to put their hand up to help you out. Jared, lets me just start with saying I also think Melissa has done a great job, my very first post in this list acknowledged that. However there does not seem to be an opportunity to even ask a normal question let alone ask, or heaven forbid suggest, someone else learns to do what Melissa is currently doing. Leaving politics out of this. The current system stifles initiative of regular members. We don't know who to ask what and we don't get answers anyway. If, and thats a big if, there was an open and transparent system then it would be much easier in my way of thinking to know who to ask what. I for one don't need, nor do I want, anyone to tell me what to do and when to do it, but I do need to know what the structure of this community is so I can decide where my talents are best placed. Unfortunately nothing here is apparently obvious so we have in this current system 2 alternatives, 1. we ask a question publicly and hope the person who knows the answer, who ever that may be, sees the question and answers it, or 2. we just go on our merry way and hope whatever we do is ok with everyone else. Michael (k3lt01). -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
On Apr 13, 10:42 am, Peter Schwenke wrote: > I am of a similar opinion to Daniel with regard to bureaucracy. > However, I have been biting my tongue. > > The current set up is not stopping anybody from doing anything. Isn't it? Then why can't I get a straight answer to why does this mailing list have references to porn in it and how can I get rid of them? > IMO the effort spent on drawing up leadership plans and roadmaps could > be spent on testing and (for the more technical folk) fixing bugs > (providing patches). The issue here is the re-approval asks for a Roadmap, so it does need to be discussed. > If a package you are using has issues, investigate why and report it. > For example, you might see it has been fixed upstream. > > If you have some software you see that needs packaging for Ubuntu, > package it up. Totally beside the point with regards to this discussion. We are not talking about the entire Ubuntu community, instead we are talking about Ubuntu-AU. Mixing them up does nothing except for clouding the issue being discussed. > If you would like to do something in the wider community, send a message > to the list and see if you get help (and maybe advice) and do it. Like get the references to porn of the Mailing list membership list? > If you have the ability to answer questions on forums, put some effort > in to that. I already do and thats because this community is dysfunctional. > Then, after doing something, if you want a title or "belong", become an > Ubuntu member or something. In that process already but why can't people like me also want to help Ubuntu-AU expand. Why can't we have an open and honest discussion about our local scene instead of having the global scene thrown in to confuse the issue. > By doing the above some people will show leadership in organising something. Do you know how many people in this mailing list are seen to be active in the regular forum? Let me say that it looks like there aren't many of us there often. > IMO, having elections and boards and titles etc does not make any of > the above happen. If you have 9 people, some of their circumstances > will change, they'll no longer be available to contribute. I'm sure > many people here have been involved (or know others)in various clubs. > The same story Then you get the politics and vested interests and > perceived vested interests... and ... I really think you miss the point. This is a discussion about transparency and the real lack of it. If you don't want the system to change that is fine lets have a vote and see what the entire Ubuntu-AU community think and lets then honour that choice regardless of what it is. -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Daniel Sobey wrote: > ...snip... > We do need to change, but just adding 3 layers of bureaucracy will not > help, perhaps in 5 or 10 years when our community has grown it will be > needed but not now. > > So the question is if the current system is not working, or not working > as well as it should why is the proposal is to replace 1 person with > potentially 9 people. > > There is some space for more people to step up into leadership but i'm > not sure if anyone has come forward and offered themselves up. Perhaps > part of the problem is that no one has come up with ideas and everyone > is looking to Melissa for everything. Her approach is to let everyone do > what they want and leave them up to themselves. > > I think there is a place for leadership but there is little point in > adding another layer. If you think you have something to contribute go > ahead and contribute, we need all the help we can get. You do not need > to be approved before doing anything just make your suggestion and the > community will help as much as we can. > > The question we should be asking is what needs to be done and what isn't > being done with the current system and how adding this will help. > I am of a similar opinion to Daniel with regard to bureaucracy. However, I have been biting my tongue. The current set up is not stopping anybody from doing anything. IMO the effort spent on drawing up leadership plans and roadmaps could be spent on testing and (for the more technical folk) fixing bugs (providing patches). If a package you are using has issues, investigate why and report it. For example, you might see it has been fixed upstream. If you have some software you see that needs packaging for Ubuntu, package it up. When there is an event approaching (e.g. Software Freedom Day, Linux Conf open day), those interested in organising something can send a message to the mailing list. Those who have the interest and time at that period of their lives can join in and help with that event. If you would like to do something in the wider community, send a message to the list and see if you get help (and maybe advice) and do it. If you have the ability to answer questions on forums, put some effort in to that. Then, after doing something, if you want a title or "belong", become an Ubuntu member or something. By doing the above some people will show leadership in organising something. IMO, having elections and boards and titles etc does not make any of the above happen. If you have 9 people, some of their circumstances will change, they'll no longer be available to contribute. I'm sure many people here have been involved (or know others)in various clubs. The same story Then you get the politics and vested interests and perceived vested interests... and ... -- Regards ...Peter -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Good morning/afternoon/evening Andrew and the rest of the Ubuntu-AU mailing list. I have been watching these ongoing topics with interest and I personally believe that the two viewpoints are both trying to accomplish positive outcomes for the Ubuntu-AU team. But I also don't think the two different philosophies are mutually exclusive by any means. I have taken some time to try and organise my thoughts in a logical pattern and so I will work on replying to statements Andrew has made to try and show my viewpoint (and yes, I have read all the links you included in your email). I have put Andrew's email in italics to try and make it easier to tell what is the original email and what is my response. *On 12 April 2010 12:43, AndrewG wrote: > LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP > > Prologue: 25th March, Melissa Draper (our team contact) was sent an > email outlining some of the following in detail. I am still awaiting > a reply (maybe she is on holidays), thus my reason for a public post > to the Ubuntu-au community. (I wish that she had replied so we could > have made a joint post) > > > LEADERSHIP: From the correspondence that I have had with Melissa, she > informs me that > "The contact is not the dog's body nor is it the mastermind." > Further, "I'm responsible for allocating privileges as allowed to us > by Canonical. I'm the team /contact/. I'm the person who interfaces > between Canonical and the team members." > > So my conclusion is that the 'Team Contact' is NOT the team leader > (contrary to popular belief), but a 'Conduit' between Canonical, the > Community Council and the Ubuntu-au community. (and also that the Team > leader should convey the sentiment of the ubuntu-au community) > > Thus, Ubuntu-au is a collection of people with no leadership, a group > of individuals trying to further the goals set down in the wiki page > 'The Australian team focuses on distributing, advertising and > demonstrating Ubuntu within Australia' >* To my knowledge all this is correct, Melissa is the team contact. I personally do not know of anyone active in the Ubuntu-AU that could come close to knowing enough about how Canonical works to replace what Melissa contributes to us all. I'm not against other people learning about these sorts of things but I am pretty sure it would require a fair bit of effort for a person to become familiar with all that is required and wouldn't be learnt overnight. Melissa, I tip my hat to you, thank you for your efforts and I hope other people are willing to put their hand up to help you out. *> > I also asked Melissa the following > "What is your vision ?" > Her reply > "My vision is for a team that is constructive and contains people who > think up initiatives or support others rather than waiting for > orders." > My reply > "How do we encourage & support constructive people? > Some people need to be given guidance, in my experience there are > three types of people. > 1. Leaders: Those that inspire others to do great things > 2. Followers: Those that need inspiration to do great things. > 3. Others: They just don't give a damn about doing great things." > * I would have to agree with you both on this one. I agree with Melissa's statement as you have quoted it and I also agree that with your statement about leadership. I do think you are trying to suggest that the leaders need to have a specific title though and I don't I agree with that. As per your link to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamLeader “There are two meanings of the term *leader*. One is *tell others what to do*, the other is *others follow you because you set a good example*. The first concept does not work well in any volunteer organization, and Ubuntu Local Teams are no exception. “ Therefore I don't believe you are both necessarily at odds with one another on this point. * > > On March 8,9 & 11, there was some very robust threads on this mailing > list about Ubuntu-au Governance, Re-approval and the Website. > Now I'm not sure that these discussions achieved much as it has been > over one month and it seams that these issues remain unresolved. > > I think I can see why this is the case. > > 1. There seams to be a reluctance to change the status-quo. > 2. There is a fear about 'loss of control'. > 3. There is no clear process to bring about change to the Ubuntu-au > community. > 4. There is no 'leadership' to enable change to be achieved. > > In summary: 'Nobody is responsible for everything' or 'Everybody is > responsible for Everything' or 'Nobody is responsible for Nothing' > > "Change is the law of life and those who look only to the past or > present are certain to miss the future." > —John F. Kennedy > * I believe that this particular topic was discussed in the meeting that was held after the aforementioned email thread. My memory of the meeting is that it would not be constructive to approach the leadership/contact issue until after the re approval to provide stability for the re approval process. Therefo
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Dear Friend, I think that you miss the point. I will explain. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Daniel Sobey wrote: > Hi list, > > It's a great idea on paper but i do not see it working with a community > our size. > Currently we have 24 people in #ubuntu-au-chat and 38 in #ubuntu-au, we > have around 300 people on the mailing list. > Why are people not active ? if we have 300 people on the mailing list How many people are currently signed-on to the ubuntu-au website that are not on the mailing list or on the official team list ?Why do they not subscribe or become official ? > At release parties we do get 20-30 people to meet up in but I don't see > that anywhere near big enough to support anything like lug style > meetings. Australia is also quite big with people in the capitol cities > and not a lot else. Perhaps Sydney or Melbourne might have the numbers > but if only 2 places have the council what is the point? > With Brisbane that makes Team-contact + web-master + 3 representatives that makes 5 people. The 'Point', is not how many people are on the ACC, but that an ACC exists so that 'people' can get-together in sufficient numbers to form a 'local LoCo' and take a seat on the ACC. > We do need to change, but just adding 3 layers of bureaucracy will not > help, perhaps in 5 or 10 years when our community has grown it will be > needed but not now. > You are right, perhaps in 5 to 10 years we will need 3 layers. (it is a blue-print for the future) The model doesn't call for this until the numbers are sufficient. And a 'state-council' is only created if there are more than 5 reps on the ACC (in the same state). > So the question is if the current system is not working, or not working > as well as it should why is the proposal is to replace 1 person with > potentially 9 people. > Providing a structure for people to come forward to share the leadership. > There is some space for more people to step up into leadership but i'm > not sure if anyone has come forward and offered themselves up. Perhaps > part of the problem is that no one has come up with ideas and everyone > is looking to Melissa for everything. Her approach is to let everyone do > what they want and leave them up to themselves. > There are many 'leaders' in this group, but there is no encouragement for them to stand-up. There is no 'leadership role' for them to take. "i'm (you) are not sure if anyone has come forward and offered themselves up" - That is because there is no transparent process for leaders to come forward. > I think there is a place for leadership but there is little point in > adding another layer. If you think you have something to contribute go > ahead and contribute, we need all the help we can get. You do not need > to be approved before doing anything just make your suggestion and the > community will help as much as we can. > There is no 'extra layer', there are 'extra people' in leadership roles. Individuals can still do anything that they like. 'One person can achieve a little, many people can achieve a lot' > The question we should be asking is what needs to be done and what isn't > being done with the current system and how adding this will help. > "An open and transparent 'Leadership' as there is currently none. An ACC will provide 'Advisory, Support, Leadership & Co-ordination, a Local contact" > Regards, > Daniel > > Regards, Andrew G. -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Hi Daniel. The way I see it is that there is no opportunity to expand anything, leadership or otherwise, because the current system is autocratic. Questions have been asked in public, and from what I can now gather in private, about regular members doing different things. Unfortunately these questions get stonewalled. I personally have no problem with any individual per see but I do have an issue with a so called open community not allowing the community to vote on its own structure. What this community needs is an opportunity to choose its own destiny and this needs to be a voluntary choice, i.e. the current leadership team need to allow it to happen. If the community decides to allow the status quo to continue then everyone must accept that choice, if the community wants to change the current system then the current leadership team must accept that choice. It is also important to understand that this proposal is a trial so it will be up for review in 18 (?) months or so. If it doesn't work so be it, at last something has been tried. Michael (k3lt01) On Apr 12, 10:07 pm, Daniel Sobey wrote: > Hi list, > > There is some space for more people to step up into leadership but i'm > not sure if anyone has come forward and offered themselves up. Perhaps > part of the problem is that no one has come up with ideas and everyone > is looking to Melissa for everything. Her approach is to let everyone do > what they want and leave them up to themselves. > > I think there is a place for leadership but there is little point in > adding another layer. If you think you have something to contribute go > ahead and contribute, we need all the help we can get. You do not need > to be approved before doing anything just make your suggestion and the > community will help as much as we can. > > The question we should be asking is what needs to be done and what isn't > being done with the current system and how adding this will help. > > Regards, > Daniel > > -- > ubuntu-au mailing list > ubuntu...@lists.ubuntu.comhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Hi list, It's a great idea on paper but i do not see it working with a community our size. Currently we have 24 people in #ubuntu-au-chat and 38 in #ubuntu-au, we have around 300 people on the mailing list. At release parties we do get 20-30 people to meet up in but I don't see that anywhere near big enough to support anything like lug style meetings. Australia is also quite big with people in the capitol cities and not a lot else. Perhaps Sydney or Melbourne might have the numbers but if only 2 places have the council what is the point? We do need to change, but just adding 3 layers of bureaucracy will not help, perhaps in 5 or 10 years when our community has grown it will be needed but not now. So the question is if the current system is not working, or not working as well as it should why is the proposal is to replace 1 person with potentially 9 people. There is some space for more people to step up into leadership but i'm not sure if anyone has come forward and offered themselves up. Perhaps part of the problem is that no one has come up with ideas and everyone is looking to Melissa for everything. Her approach is to let everyone do what they want and leave them up to themselves. I think there is a place for leadership but there is little point in adding another layer. If you think you have something to contribute go ahead and contribute, we need all the help we can get. You do not need to be approved before doing anything just make your suggestion and the community will help as much as we can. The question we should be asking is what needs to be done and what isn't being done with the current system and how adding this will help. Regards, Daniel -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Philosophically I agree with AndrewG not sure how the low numbers in some locations might be a limitation but it certainly is a carrot to grow numbers. It IMO is what is required at this time to grow Ubuntu AU Cary -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Sorry for the double post... the first attempt was cut off :( -- Scott Evans signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
On Mon, 2010-04-12 at 20:58 +1000, Scott Evans wrote: > My Random Ramblings... > > On Sun, 2010-04-11 at 19:43 -0700, AndrewG wrote: > > > LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP > > > > Prologue: 25th March, Melissa Draper (our team contact) was sent an > > email outlining some of the following in detail. I am still awaiting > > a reply (maybe she is on holidays), thus my reason for a public post > > to the Ubuntu-au community. (I wish that she had replied so we could > > have made a joint post) > > > > Ok firstly this is a discussion not a session to prove popularity or > to attack "anyone" at a personal level, Remember we are all friends > here not enemies! (leave any egos at the door please) > > > > > LEADERSHIP: From the correspondence that I have had with Melissa, she > > informs me that > > "The contact is not the dog's body nor is it the mastermind." > > Further, "I'm responsible for allocating privileges as allowed to us > > by Canonical. I'm the team /contact/. I'm the person who interfaces > > between Canonical and the team members." > > > > So my conclusion is that the 'Team Contact' is NOT the team leader > > (contrary to popular belief), but a 'Conduit' between Canonical, the > > Community Council and the Ubuntu-au community. (and also that the Team > > leader should convey the sentiment of the ubuntu-au community) > > > > Ok so my interpretation of the ubuntu LoCo leader was some what > different... > > > Thus, Ubuntu-au is a collection of people with no leadership, a group > > of individuals trying to further the goals set down in the wiki page > > 'The Australian team focuses on distributing, advertising and > > demonstrating Ubuntu within Australia' > > > > Sadly I feel that the current "structure" doesn't actually do much for > promoting ubuntu as a whole... > > > I also asked Melissa the following > > "What is your vision ?" > > Her reply > > "My vision is for a team that is constructive and contains people who > > think up initiatives or support others rather than waiting for > > orders." > > Err... Ok but lately I feel that some have put forward suggestions and > have been met with great resistance to "change" > > > My reply > > "How do we encourage & support constructive people? > > Some people need to be given guidance, in my experience there are > > three types of people. > > 1. Leaders: Those that inspire others to do great things > > 2. Followers: Those that need inspiration to do great things. > > 3. Others: They just don't give a damn about doing great things." > > > > Agree totally with the above ... now just decide what roll you are > comfortable with and don't be threatened by those that choose option > 1 > > > > > On March 8,9 & 11, there was some very robust threads on this mailing > > list about Ubuntu-au Governance, Re-approval and the Website. > > Now I'm not sure that these discussions achieved much as it has been > > over one month and it seams that these issues remain unresolved. > > > > I think I can see why this is the case. > > > > 1. There seams to be a reluctance to change the status-quo. > > 2. There is a fear about 'loss of control'. > > 3. There is no clear process to bring about change to the Ubuntu-au > > community. > > 4. There is no 'leadership' to enable change to be achieved. > > > > Sadly this seems to be the norm with discussion. It all starts out > well intended but then due to the "resistance" mentioned earlier it is > near impossible to achieve. > > > In summary: 'Nobody is responsible for everything' or 'Everybody is > > responsible for Everything' or 'Nobody is responsible for Nothing' > > > > "Change is the law of life and those who look only to the past or > > present are certain to miss the future." > > —John F. Kennedy > > Umm... didn't he get a bullet in the head for having some rather > radical idea's ? (I'm trying to make light of a bad situation > there!) > > > > > BIG PICTURE: > > Currently there is a discussion with the Community Council > > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/392986 > > It talks about 'LoCo's are not "Lo" Enough' (Mark Shuttleworth has > > even made comment) > > and the concept of: > > ReCo = Regional Community (for States and Provinces) > > CoCo = Country Community (for Countries) > > LoCo = Local Community (for Towns and Cities) > > > > I'm not sure that we have the numbers to break the LoCo down into > smaller sub units, but as an Idea it sure does carry merit. As we are > aware that the current arrangement (from when the LoCo was approved) > is really centralised as a Sydney community with smaller interest from > other states, Now that there is an interest beyond the original > concept devised by the original founders of the AU LoCo, was there > ever any further thought back then (2006) that it would grow beyond > what the LoCo was at that time (I can't answer this because I wasn't > an active member of the ubuntu-au community then) and to allow future > broadening
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
My Random Ramblings... On Sun, 2010-04-11 at 19:43 -0700, AndrewG wrote: > LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP > > Prologue: 25th March, Melissa Draper (our team contact) was sent an > email outlining some of the following in detail. I am still awaiting > a reply (maybe she is on holidays), thus my reason for a public post > to the Ubuntu-au community. (I wish that she had replied so we could > have made a joint post) > Ok firstly this is a discussion not a session to prove popularity or to attack "anyone" at a personal level, Remember we are all friends here not enemies! (leave any egos at the door please) > > LEADERSHIP: From the correspondence that I have had with Melissa, she > informs me that > "The contact is not the dog's body nor is it the mastermind." > Further, "I'm responsible for allocating privileges as allowed to us > by Canonical. I'm the team /contact/. I'm the person who interfaces > between Canonical and the team members." > > So my conclusion is that the 'Team Contact' is NOT the team leader > (contrary to popular belief), but a 'Conduit' between Canonical, the > Community Council and the Ubuntu-au community. (and also that the Team > leader should convey the sentiment of the ubuntu-au community) > Ok so my interpretation of the ubuntu LoCo leader was some what different... > Thus, Ubuntu-au is a collection of people with no leadership, a group > of individuals trying to further the goals set down in the wiki page > 'The Australian team focuses on distributing, advertising and > demonstrating Ubuntu within Australia' > Sadly I feel that the current "structure" doesn't actually do much for promoting ubuntu as a whole... > I also asked Melissa the following > "What is your vision ?" > Her reply > "My vision is for a team that is constructive and contains people who > think up initiatives or support others rather than waiting for > orders." Err... Ok but lately I feel that some have put forward suggestions and have been met with great resistance to "change" > My reply > "How do we encourage & support constructive people? > Some people need to be given guidance, in my experience there are > three types of people. > 1. Leaders: Those that inspire others to do great things > 2. Followers: Those that need inspiration to do great things. > 3. Others: They just don't give a damn about doing great things." > Agree totally with the above ... now just decide what roll you are comfortable with and don't be threatened by those that choose option 1 > > On March 8,9 & 11, there was some very robust threads on this mailing > list about Ubuntu-au Governance, Re-approval and the Website. > Now I'm not sure that these discussions achieved much as it has been > over one month and it seams that these issues remain unresolved. > > I think I can see why this is the case. > > 1. There seams to be a reluctance to change the status-quo. > 2. There is a fear about 'loss of control'. > 3. There is no clear process to bring about change to the Ubuntu-au > community. > 4. There is no 'leadership' to enable change to be achieved. > Sadly this seems to be the norm with discussion. It all starts out well intended but then due to the "resistance" mentioned earlier it is near impossible to achieve. > In summary: 'Nobody is responsible for everything' or 'Everybody is > responsible for Everything' or 'Nobody is responsible for Nothing' > > "Change is the law of life and those who look only to the past or > present are certain to miss the future." > —John F. Kennedy Umm... didn't he get a bullet in the head for having some rather radical idea's ? (I'm trying to make light of a bad situation there!) > > BIG PICTURE: > Currently there is a discussion with the Community Council > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/392986 > It talks about 'LoCo's are not "Lo" Enough' (Mark Shuttleworth has > even made comment) > and the concept of: > ReCo = Regional Community (for States and Provinces) > CoCo = Country Community (for Countries) > LoCo = Local Community (for Towns and Cities) > I'm not sure that we have the numbers to break the LoCo down into smaller sub units, but as an Idea it sure does carry merit. As we are aware that the current arrangement (from when the LoCo was approved) is really centralised as a Sydney community with smaller interest from other states, Now that there is an interest beyond the original concept devised by the original founders of the AU LoCo, was there ever any further thought back then (2006) that it would grow beyond what the LoCo was at that time (I can't answer this because I wasn't an active member of the ubuntu-au community then) and to allow future broadening to "all" areas within the greater AU population? The way it feel to me is "no" but I could be wrong in saying this, but that is how I have felt when engaging in discussion. > The Ubuntu-au community is clearly a 'CoCo' not a 'LoCo' as we are > seperated by large distances, in cities and regions.
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Hi Andrew P. 1. Thanks. 2. There is no 'Pres' of the ACC. I will not be nominating myself. 3. Representative positions on the ACC will only become available if the numbers of 'Local loco' warrant it. 'State and Territory councils' do not exist unless there are sufficient 'Local loco' to fill them. The 'beauty' of the model is that in allows for growth. 4. & 5. Yes lets have a 'popularity' contest and trial it. Thanks for your comments, thanks for your vote. Andrew G. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 8:28 PM, Andrew Powter wrote: > 1. As an observer to this saga, I would back the sentiments viz. AndrewG's > write up = quality. > 2. I do wonder though if AndrewG is going to nom himself for Pres. of the > ACC? > 3. I wonder also if au has enough *nix users and a big enough subset of > them running *buntu to staff an ACC, State and territory CC's and LoCo's? > 4. On paper, this looks very nice, and in principle I agree that a new > model needs to be rolled out for ubuntu-au, but practically I have > reservations about its implementation. > 5. Having said that, I think we should have a popularity con...- er, > referendum with other proposed ideas for the restructuring of ubuntu-au and > THEN have the winner go for the trial period. Second place can collect $50. > > $0.02, > Andrew Powter > aka "nDR01d" > > On 12 April 2010 12:43, AndrewG wrote: > >> LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP >> >> Prologue: 25th March, Melissa Draper (our team contact) was sent an >> email outlining some of the following in detail. I am still awaiting >> a reply (maybe she is on holidays), thus my reason for a public post >> to the Ubuntu-au community. (I wish that she had replied so we could >> have made a joint post) >> >> >> LEADERSHIP: From the correspondence that I have had with Melissa, she >> informs me that >> "The contact is not the dog's body nor is it the mastermind." >> Further, "I'm responsible for allocating privileges as allowed to us >> by Canonical. I'm the team /contact/. I'm the person who interfaces >> between Canonical and the team members." >> >> So my conclusion is that the 'Team Contact' is NOT the team leader >> (contrary to popular belief), but a 'Conduit' between Canonical, the >> Community Council and the Ubuntu-au community. (and also that the Team >> leader should convey the sentiment of the ubuntu-au community) >> >> Thus, Ubuntu-au is a collection of people with no leadership, a group >> of individuals trying to further the goals set down in the wiki page >> 'The Australian team focuses on distributing, advertising and >> demonstrating Ubuntu within Australia' >> >> >> I also asked Melissa the following >> "What is your vision ?" >> Her reply >> "My vision is for a team that is constructive and contains people who >> think up initiatives or support others rather than waiting for >> orders." >> My reply >> "How do we encourage & support constructive people? >> Some people need to be given guidance, in my experience there are >> three types of people. >> 1. Leaders: Those that inspire others to do great things >> 2. Followers: Those that need inspiration to do great things. >> 3. Others: They just don't give a damn about doing great things." >> >> >> On March 8,9 & 11, there was some very robust threads on this mailing >> list about Ubuntu-au Governance, Re-approval and the Website. >> Now I'm not sure that these discussions achieved much as it has been >> over one month and it seams that these issues remain unresolved. >> >> I think I can see why this is the case. >> >> 1. There seams to be a reluctance to change the status-quo. >> 2. There is a fear about 'loss of control'. >> 3. There is no clear process to bring about change to the Ubuntu-au >> community. >> 4. There is no 'leadership' to enable change to be achieved. >> >> In summary: 'Nobody is responsible for everything' or 'Everybody is >> responsible for Everything' or 'Nobody is responsible for Nothing' >> >> "Change is the law of life and those who look only to the past or >> present are certain to miss the future." >> —John F. Kennedy >> >> >> BIG PICTURE: >> Currently there is a discussion with the Community Council >> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/392986 >> It talks about 'LoCo's are not "Lo" Enough' (Mark Shuttleworth has >> even made comment) >> and the concept of: >> ReCo = Regional Community (for States and Provinces) >> CoCo = Country Community (for Countries) >> LoCo = Local Community (for Towns and Cities) >> >> The Ubuntu-au community is clearly a 'CoCo' not a 'LoCo' as we are >> seperated by large distances, in cities and regions. >> >> If we accept the premise that the ubuntu-au community is made up of >> smaller 'LoCo' around the country. >> I.E. Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth, Hobart >> >> >> *** >> PROPOSAL: I would propose that an "Australian Community Council"(ACC) >> be creat
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
1. As an observer to this saga, I would back the sentiments viz. AndrewG's write up = quality. 2. I do wonder though if AndrewG is going to nom himself for Pres. of the ACC? 3. I wonder also if au has enough *nix users and a big enough subset of them running *buntu to staff an ACC, State and territory CC's and LoCo's? 4. On paper, this looks very nice, and in principle I agree that a new model needs to be rolled out for ubuntu-au, but practically I have reservations about its implementation. 5. Having said that, I think we should have a popularity con...- er, referendum with other proposed ideas for the restructuring of ubuntu-au and THEN have the winner go for the trial period. Second place can collect $50. $0.02, Andrew Powter aka "nDR01d" On 12 April 2010 12:43, AndrewG wrote: > LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP > > Prologue: 25th March, Melissa Draper (our team contact) was sent an > email outlining some of the following in detail. I am still awaiting > a reply (maybe she is on holidays), thus my reason for a public post > to the Ubuntu-au community. (I wish that she had replied so we could > have made a joint post) > > > LEADERSHIP: From the correspondence that I have had with Melissa, she > informs me that > "The contact is not the dog's body nor is it the mastermind." > Further, "I'm responsible for allocating privileges as allowed to us > by Canonical. I'm the team /contact/. I'm the person who interfaces > between Canonical and the team members." > > So my conclusion is that the 'Team Contact' is NOT the team leader > (contrary to popular belief), but a 'Conduit' between Canonical, the > Community Council and the Ubuntu-au community. (and also that the Team > leader should convey the sentiment of the ubuntu-au community) > > Thus, Ubuntu-au is a collection of people with no leadership, a group > of individuals trying to further the goals set down in the wiki page > 'The Australian team focuses on distributing, advertising and > demonstrating Ubuntu within Australia' > > > I also asked Melissa the following > "What is your vision ?" > Her reply > "My vision is for a team that is constructive and contains people who > think up initiatives or support others rather than waiting for > orders." > My reply > "How do we encourage & support constructive people? > Some people need to be given guidance, in my experience there are > three types of people. > 1. Leaders: Those that inspire others to do great things > 2. Followers: Those that need inspiration to do great things. > 3. Others: They just don't give a damn about doing great things." > > > On March 8,9 & 11, there was some very robust threads on this mailing > list about Ubuntu-au Governance, Re-approval and the Website. > Now I'm not sure that these discussions achieved much as it has been > over one month and it seams that these issues remain unresolved. > > I think I can see why this is the case. > > 1. There seams to be a reluctance to change the status-quo. > 2. There is a fear about 'loss of control'. > 3. There is no clear process to bring about change to the Ubuntu-au > community. > 4. There is no 'leadership' to enable change to be achieved. > > In summary: 'Nobody is responsible for everything' or 'Everybody is > responsible for Everything' or 'Nobody is responsible for Nothing' > > "Change is the law of life and those who look only to the past or > present are certain to miss the future." > —John F. Kennedy > > > BIG PICTURE: > Currently there is a discussion with the Community Council > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/392986 > It talks about 'LoCo's are not "Lo" Enough' (Mark Shuttleworth has > even made comment) > and the concept of: > ReCo = Regional Community (for States and Provinces) > CoCo = Country Community (for Countries) > LoCo = Local Community (for Towns and Cities) > > The Ubuntu-au community is clearly a 'CoCo' not a 'LoCo' as we are > seperated by large distances, in cities and regions. > > If we accept the premise that the ubuntu-au community is made up of > smaller 'LoCo' around the country. > I.E. Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth, Hobart > > > *** > PROPOSAL: I would propose that an "Australian Community Council"(ACC) > be created. (A Trial for 18 months) > Its members would be 1. Team-Contact 2. Web-master 3. 'LoCo' > representative(s) (7+-2 people total) > > *** > (See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-au/council/structure for a summary > of models) > (See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-au/council/structure-detailed for > a detailed model of the ACC) > (These models have been created in collaboration, and are open to > further modification) > > The role of the ACC, is really one of "Advisory, Support & > Consultation", as the "Team contact" will still retain the role & > privileges
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Carey & Michael, I will reply to both of you. As per wiki, there is NO such thing as a 'State based LoCo', there is a 'State Community Council' if there is sufficient 'Local LoCo' representatives to form one. A 'State representative' is then appointed/elected to the ACC. The role of the ACC is that of 'Support & Consultation', individuals from regions can 'consult' with members on the ACC on how to set-up a 'Local LoCo'. When they have sufficient numbers to form their own 'Loco' they can have a seat on the ACC. Individuals can still contribute though 'general meetings' and make submissions to the ACC. Andrew. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 1:10 AM, Cary Bielenberg wrote: > Michael, > Your question about regional areas is a curly one, In Qld we have a > few regional areas Toowoomba, Rockhampton & Townsville that might have > enough users to setup a LoCo, I guess we should focus on state based loCo's > in the 1st instance so as not to disadvantage remote users. > > my 2c > > Cary > > Michael wrote .. > > Hi Andrew, and everyone else who wishes to take part in this > > discussion. > > > > I see you have put alot of thought into this and I applaud your > > initiative in bringing this matter to the forefront again. > > > > I don't have many comments to make at this time but the ones I do have > > to make will probably ruffle a few feathers, if they do my apology is > > thus tendered in advance. > > > > I personally like the idea of an ACC although the smaller Councils may > > be a bit difficult to setup initially. There needs to be a > > consideration of minimum numbers required for a smaller council and > > this is because places like Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane will have > > the opportunity to create a LoCo each simply because they have the > > numbers. Where does this place people like myself who live in a rural > > centre? Apart from on person who I personally know but haven't seen > > for about 6 years there is no other Ubuntu users on the Ubuntu-AU > > membership list in my region let alone in my town. So will we have a > > Sydney LoCo and a "Rest of NSW" LoCo? or will we just have a NSW LoCo? > > > > I truly believe this LoCo has no transparency. There was a comment > > made during the meeting about having an election. The comment was > > basically that elections are a popularity contest and do not really > > mean the person who gets elected is the best for the job. While this > > is true to a certain extent a transparent election process is much > > better than the current "meritocratic" process. Why is this? Well 1 > > person currently says who can do what, now unfortunately this is > > getting into the realms of micro-management simply because a very > > tight leash is being held on this small community. If this community > > is going to expand people are going to have to be allowed to do things > > without gaining the approval of an "autocratic ruler". I know with the > > current system I will never get anywhere with this community, even > > though I would like to, simply because I have a fundamental difference > > of opinion to others and because of this I don't have any chance of > > being seen as having a "level head". The current situation therefor > > can be seen as being as bad, if not worse, than a transparent election > > process simply because those who want to be able to do things have to > > be "popular" with a certain self appointed group. > > > > I may have more to say later but I think it would be best if I stopped > > where I have and see what others have to say. > > > > Cheers. > > Michael (k3lt01) > > > > -- > > ubuntu-au mailing list > > ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com > > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au > > > > -- > ubuntu-au mailing list > ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au > > -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Wow, that post is probably the most productive thing I've ever seen come out of this team. You're right about the whole "People don't need their hands held" attitude. I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen the same leadership (err, person) use that same responsibility shift for years now. This might sounds boring but after your post I've nothing to add, line for line I agree. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 12:43 PM, AndrewG wrote: > LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP > > Prologue: 25th March, Melissa Draper (our team contact) was sent an > email outlining some of the following in detail. I am still awaiting > a reply (maybe she is on holidays), thus my reason for a public post > to the Ubuntu-au community. (I wish that she had replied so we could > have made a joint post) > > > LEADERSHIP: From the correspondence that I have had with Melissa, she > informs me that > "The contact is not the dog's body nor is it the mastermind." > Further, "I'm responsible for allocating privileges as allowed to us > by Canonical. I'm the team /contact/. I'm the person who interfaces > between Canonical and the team members." > > So my conclusion is that the 'Team Contact' is NOT the team leader > (contrary to popular belief), but a 'Conduit' between Canonical, the > Community Council and the Ubuntu-au community. (and also that the Team > leader should convey the sentiment of the ubuntu-au community) > > Thus, Ubuntu-au is a collection of people with no leadership, a group > of individuals trying to further the goals set down in the wiki page > 'The Australian team focuses on distributing, advertising and > demonstrating Ubuntu within Australia' > > > I also asked Melissa the following > "What is your vision ?" > Her reply > "My vision is for a team that is constructive and contains people who > think up initiatives or support others rather than waiting for > orders." > My reply > "How do we encourage & support constructive people? > Some people need to be given guidance, in my experience there are > three types of people. > 1. Leaders: Those that inspire others to do great things > 2. Followers: Those that need inspiration to do great things. > 3. Others: They just don't give a damn about doing great things." > > > On March 8,9 & 11, there was some very robust threads on this mailing > list about Ubuntu-au Governance, Re-approval and the Website. > Now I'm not sure that these discussions achieved much as it has been > over one month and it seams that these issues remain unresolved. > > I think I can see why this is the case. > > 1. There seams to be a reluctance to change the status-quo. > 2. There is a fear about 'loss of control'. > 3. There is no clear process to bring about change to the Ubuntu-au > community. > 4. There is no 'leadership' to enable change to be achieved. > > In summary: 'Nobody is responsible for everything' or 'Everybody is > responsible for Everything' or 'Nobody is responsible for Nothing' > > "Change is the law of life and those who look only to the past or > present are certain to miss the future." > —John F. Kennedy > > > BIG PICTURE: > Currently there is a discussion with the Community Council > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/392986 > It talks about 'LoCo's are not "Lo" Enough' (Mark Shuttleworth has > even made comment) > and the concept of: > ReCo = Regional Community (for States and Provinces) > CoCo = Country Community (for Countries) > LoCo = Local Community (for Towns and Cities) > > The Ubuntu-au community is clearly a 'CoCo' not a 'LoCo' as we are > seperated by large distances, in cities and regions. > > If we accept the premise that the ubuntu-au community is made up of > smaller 'LoCo' around the country. > I.E. Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Perth, Hobart > > > *** > PROPOSAL: I would propose that an "Australian Community Council"(ACC) > be created. (A Trial for 18 months) > Its members would be 1. Team-Contact 2. Web-master 3. 'LoCo' > representative(s) (7+-2 people total) > > *** > (See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-au/council/structure for a summary > of models) > (See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-au/council/structure-detailed for > a detailed model of the ACC) > (These models have been created in collaboration, and are open to > further modification) > > The role of the ACC, is really one of "Advisory, Support & > Consultation", as the "Team contact" will still retain the role & > privileges. > > ADVANTAGES > 1. It gives the community some ownership in the process of running > the Ubuntu-au. > 2. It will bring forward 'leaders', which could be potential > successors for the 'Team contact' > 3. Spreading the load of leadership. (with 9 potential persons) > 4. An open transparent process. > 5. Authority to drive discussion and imp
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Michael, Your question about regional areas is a curly one, In Qld we have a few regional areas Toowoomba, Rockhampton & Townsville that might have enough users to setup a LoCo, I guess we should focus on state based loCo's in the 1st instance so as not to disadvantage remote users. my 2c Cary Michael wrote .. > Hi Andrew, and everyone else who wishes to take part in this > discussion. > > I see you have put alot of thought into this and I applaud your > initiative in bringing this matter to the forefront again. > > I don't have many comments to make at this time but the ones I do have > to make will probably ruffle a few feathers, if they do my apology is > thus tendered in advance. > > I personally like the idea of an ACC although the smaller Councils may > be a bit difficult to setup initially. There needs to be a > consideration of minimum numbers required for a smaller council and > this is because places like Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane will have > the opportunity to create a LoCo each simply because they have the > numbers. Where does this place people like myself who live in a rural > centre? Apart from on person who I personally know but haven't seen > for about 6 years there is no other Ubuntu users on the Ubuntu-AU > membership list in my region let alone in my town. So will we have a > Sydney LoCo and a "Rest of NSW" LoCo? or will we just have a NSW LoCo? > > I truly believe this LoCo has no transparency. There was a comment > made during the meeting about having an election. The comment was > basically that elections are a popularity contest and do not really > mean the person who gets elected is the best for the job. While this > is true to a certain extent a transparent election process is much > better than the current "meritocratic" process. Why is this? Well 1 > person currently says who can do what, now unfortunately this is > getting into the realms of micro-management simply because a very > tight leash is being held on this small community. If this community > is going to expand people are going to have to be allowed to do things > without gaining the approval of an "autocratic ruler". I know with the > current system I will never get anywhere with this community, even > though I would like to, simply because I have a fundamental difference > of opinion to others and because of this I don't have any chance of > being seen as having a "level head". The current situation therefor > can be seen as being as bad, if not worse, than a transparent election > process simply because those who want to be able to do things have to > be "popular" with a certain self appointed group. > > I may have more to say later but I think it would be best if I stopped > where I have and see what others have to say. > > Cheers. > Michael (k3lt01) > > -- > ubuntu-au mailing list > ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au > -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
Hi Andrew, and everyone else who wishes to take part in this discussion. I see you have put alot of thought into this and I applaud your initiative in bringing this matter to the forefront again. I don't have many comments to make at this time but the ones I do have to make will probably ruffle a few feathers, if they do my apology is thus tendered in advance. I personally like the idea of an ACC although the smaller Councils may be a bit difficult to setup initially. There needs to be a consideration of minimum numbers required for a smaller council and this is because places like Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane will have the opportunity to create a LoCo each simply because they have the numbers. Where does this place people like myself who live in a rural centre? Apart from on person who I personally know but haven't seen for about 6 years there is no other Ubuntu users on the Ubuntu-AU membership list in my region let alone in my town. So will we have a Sydney LoCo and a "Rest of NSW" LoCo? or will we just have a NSW LoCo? I truly believe this LoCo has no transparency. There was a comment made during the meeting about having an election. The comment was basically that elections are a popularity contest and do not really mean the person who gets elected is the best for the job. While this is true to a certain extent a transparent election process is much better than the current "meritocratic" process. Why is this? Well 1 person currently says who can do what, now unfortunately this is getting into the realms of micro-management simply because a very tight leash is being held on this small community. If this community is going to expand people are going to have to be allowed to do things without gaining the approval of an "autocratic ruler". I know with the current system I will never get anywhere with this community, even though I would like to, simply because I have a fundamental difference of opinion to others and because of this I don't have any chance of being seen as having a "level head". The current situation therefor can be seen as being as bad, if not worse, than a transparent election process simply because those who want to be able to do things have to be "popular" with a certain self appointed group. I may have more to say later but I think it would be best if I stopped where I have and see what others have to say. Cheers. Michael (k3lt01) -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
Re: LEADERSHIP and a ROADMAP
A very well presented post.. I will contribute to this one I have read all of the links ... -- Scott Evans signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- ubuntu-au mailing list ubuntu-au@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-au
