[Bug 1] Re: Bug #1: Microsoft has a majority market share

[»John«]

>
> It takes a while to dig into a project and although I have invested a few
> time for 2 or 3 projects to fix a few bugs, I cannot dig into every project
> where I find bugs. I have to rely on others fixing it

The point isn't that you should try to fix everything yourself, but that
always have much more than just a single place to go, that is pretty much
guaranteed to screw you.

I have written code that I knew will never be seen by others and other code
> I have written with the others in mind. Already the others in mind made my
> code cleaner and better documented.
>
And your diligence makes you extremely respectable at least in my book, but
unfortunately not everyone is like that. For example the good old M$ with
their Hyper-V 
drivers
:

> As a result of being beaten through staging process, their Hyper-V drivers
> are now significantly cleaner and tighter to the point of 60% reduction in
> the overall lines of code, significant performance and stability
> improvements were made, and a solid architectural basis created.

That tells you two things:

   1. *they're not ashamed to publicly produce crap*
   2. *they never improve it on their own, even if it is in their own best
   interest*

That gives you a taste of their nature (and a reason why I don't trust the
word they say), but there are way too many completely valid reasons to
suspect that the reality is much worse than that. For example these quotes:

This one officially confirms what I already said - they just don't care
about their customers as long as it's profitable:

> There are no significant bugs in our released software that any
> significant number of users want fixed. … I'm saying we don't do a new
> version to fix bugs. We don't. Not enough people would buy it. You can take
> a hundred people using Microsoft Word. Call them up and say "Would you buy
> a new version because of bugs?" You won't get a single person to say they'd
> buy a new version because of bugs. We'd never be able to sell a release on
> that basis.

Bill Gates, Focus Magazine No. 43 (23 October
1995)

This one officially confirms, that they deliberately lock users to their
software and sabotage competition, because it's highly profitable:

> One thing we have got to change in our strategy - allowing Office
> documents to be rendered very well by other peoples browsers is one of the
> most destructive things we could do to the company. We have to stop putting
> any effort into this and make sure that Office documents very well depends
> on PROPRIETARY IE capabilities.

Bill Gates' 1998 a memo to the Office product
group

Feel free to substitute "correctly rendering Office documents" for
"reliably reproducing their interfaces" and see where this is going.
This, my friends, is why proprietary software sucks and why we have these
problems. Not that we didn't contribute more than enough ourselves, but the
root cause is the ruthlessness of (not only) today's businesses.

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  Microsoft has a majority market share

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Am 10.11.2011 17:36 schrieb "houstonbofh" <1...@bugs.launchpad.net>:
> Short version, while there are some changes, most things are standard.
> There is a reason for this.

I do not consider the taskbar position so important as gas and break in a
car. Compare it to old-style gear and automatic - a big change to car usage
and people managed it.

On iphone or Android there is no taskbar at all and guess: Nobody is seeing
that as a core issue.

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Fabien Basmaison]

I fully second that.

Build to make Ubuntu more robust before adding features.

Le 02/11/2010 05:01, Martin Wildam a écrit :

> So please, please, focus more on bug fixing than on introducing new 
> user ui, which already is really good!
>
Fabien Basmaison 

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Because of the latest problems with network-manager I tried wicd - and
bum - next bug report. Currently I think I could spend the whole day
with bug reporting... - that is sad...
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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 22:49, Tom <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> I am getting most of my people to stick with 10.04 (LTS).  I will be trying 
> out
> a few newer releases but only on a spare partition especially at first.

I am also on 10.04 - although 9.10 would have been the better LTS.

Please, please focus on the quality and only then on further
improvements of usability. Ubuntu already is very usable. Please focus
on removing the bugs.
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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

I am getting most of my people to stick with 10.04 (LTS).  I will be trying out 
a few newer releases but only on a spare partition especially at first.

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Artem Karimov]

I agree. I tried running the Unity on Maverick on the 2004 laptop with
P4 and Radeon 9600 video. That was a disaster! Even the ppa purge
could not make the system gui bootable again. Had to make a transition
to Arch Linux.

On 2 November 2010 00:01, Martin Wildam <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> Read in the news that there is planned to use unity in future Ubuntu
> versions as main desktop.
>
> I did not tried myself but heard and read of _many_ people that this
> is still really buggy.
>
> I do personally fully understand, that Ubuntu needs to keep up with
> innovation and there is the desire to deliver a very easy to use OS -
> even for the newcomer.
>
> But:
>
> 1. I find the Gnome desktop already very clean and easy to use - even
> for the newcomer (I switched >60 year old people without the need of
> any more support after 2 weeks - this is basically the time a person
> needs to destroy a Windows installation by virus or any other stuff
> installed - at least my experience).
>
> 2. Today turned on Maverick and after login found 3 new bugs. And
> there are still some older ones I am still waiting for a fix - for
> Lucid and for Maverick also - annoying bugs.
>
> So the point is: After 9.04 and 9.10 (those really worked in an
> awesome stable way) my experiences with 10.04 and 10.10 are getting
> worse. So please, please, focus more on bug fixing than on introducing
> new user ui, which already is really good!

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Read in the news that there is planned to use unity in future Ubuntu
versions as main desktop.

I did not tried myself but heard and read of _many_ people that this
is still really buggy.

I do personally fully understand, that Ubuntu needs to keep up with
innovation and there is the desire to deliver a very easy to use OS -
even for the newcomer.

But:

1. I find the Gnome desktop already very clean and easy to use - even
for the newcomer (I switched >60 year old people without the need of
any more support after 2 weeks - this is basically the time a person
needs to destroy a Windows installation by virus or any other stuff
installed - at least my experience).

2. Today turned on Maverick and after login found 3 new bugs. And
there are still some older ones I am still waiting for a fix - for
Lucid and for Maverick also - annoying bugs.

So the point is: After 9.04 and 9.10 (those really worked in an
awesome stable way) my experiences with 10.04 and 10.10 are getting
worse. So please, please, focus more on bug fixing than on introducing
new user ui, which already is really good!
-- 
Martin Wildam

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RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 01:50, Faldegast <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> >> Nobody thinks of paying a yearly license for having tubes in the wall
> >> - no - people pay the plumber when they need him/her for putting
> >> additional tubes or doing repair work. I think, it should be the same
> >> for software. The advantage of software is that it can be easier
> >> duplicated and easier offered than the tubes.
> > Actually they do. Its called insurance. You pay a monthly fee and if your 
> > tubes need to be repaired you are not hit with a overwhelming cost.
> 
> You are right - and I mixed up a few different models. My tube example
> was comparing to a Windows license and not to a model where you get
> the software and pay extra and optional for support - as Red Hat
> offers for example.
Yeah, red hat is a very good example. To bad that their desktop version does 
not have the qualities of the server version. Or actually have the qualities of 
the server version which is not so desirable for a client... If it was as good 
as Ubuntu I would pay for that to.

What i was suggesting was actually a combined business model. We sell ubuntu 
packaged like RH does, and we throw in a little extra like a few of the 
commercial apps available in software center. Currently all we have there is a 
DVD player which is a bit dull. I would like to see the few existing games in 
there to, like Majesty and some more. (yeah, i am a strategy game nerd. :) )
 
> > Perhaps this should be integrated with Ubuntu brainstorm, and other sites 
> > where such pledges get more exposure?
> > There are also cofundos.org, and possibly other sites?
> 
> I would find it good to combine/link Launchpad with brainstorm and
> integrate something like pledgebank or cofundos - Whether it is a bug
> or a new feature request, I don't see so much difference in how it
> should be handled. Even for bugs sometimes it turns out that a
> complete different solution is better than a quick-and-dirty fix.
> 
> 
> > I am talking about a commercial version with support, marketing and 
> > distribution. And more important, an OEM program.
> 
> Oh, I understand - I thought that such also already exists. ASFAIK
> everyone can buy support from Canonical. I personally find those extra
> commercial versions which maybe include additional patches or maybe
> not is not very attractive. I like to have one thing and pay for the
> appropriate support when I have a problem that could need the
> implementation of a particular fix.
> 
> 
> > Actually i think Microsoft expect Students to buy a computer with an OEM
> > license and then get the student version, and actually pay more then
> > they have to
> 
> That was exactly what I meant. They try to create a dependency.
> 
> 
> >> DonationCoder (http://www.donationcoder.com/) also have several
> >> approaches for funding software development, from micro-donations up
> >> to custom-made software request handling through forums. I think, to
> >> build an "Ubuntu" for people seeking for programs to be written or
> >> bugs to be fixed, combined with a simple way of donation/payment,
> >> would be a big gain for Ubuntu. - Especially for companies with need
> >> to optimize their overall performance (and the computer is often an
> >> important tool for efficient administration in a company).
> > Actually i think that is great. But most users don't take time for this. 
> > They would rather buy a box and expect the source of that box to fund such 
> > development.
> 
> Yes, agree - not the home users - but you were refering to companies
> with commercial versions and support. The companies are important to
> address. IMHO in the home user field Ubuntu cannot be stopped any more
> in the long run - especially if Ubuntu continues to develop so well as
> it did in the last one or two years.
> 
> Of course - as also has been mentioned - it is important to attract
> developers to address Linux also. Most Windows developers I know are
> completely ignorant of everything else but Windows although they get
> beaten by their master (this year use winforms, the next year - oh no
> - switch to wpf please). One reason might be that software development
> is under pressure anyway already (so many software vendors - and
> basically no money needed for a startup or single person to get
> started). Addressing multiple environments increases complexity
> signiicantly. And packaging then also must be done separately for each
> platform.
> 
> And what options are for a platform agnostic way? Java, Python and
> Mono - and several very little other players. I do not consider C(++)
> here because it needs recompile on all supported platforms which then
> must be maintained at developer side (compiling from source is not an
> option for getting widely adopted). From those 3 only Java is very
> well established and many try to ban it to server side only although
> IMHO the option with the least required effort to make it work on all
> platforms.

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[zakzor]

You're absolutely right, Tom.
And don't forget our beloved X window system.
Long before MS as released its poor and system resource eater Aero, the linux 
community was ''playing'' with the great Compiz and its cube.
And there are some people who still think that Linux has not a graphical 
environment.


Go Linux,
zakzor

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

It is not just that Ubuntu has developed a lot over the last 2 or 3
years.

Users expectations and hardware have developed into areas either already 
covered 
by linux kernels or easily implemented as Unix was developed to be a 
multi-everything system.  The introduction of dual/quad-core cpus caught 
MicroSquish off-balance.  They were eventually able to get 64bit versions of 
their OS using it but the rest of their 64bit systems weren't really ready for 
widespread use (is anything they use ever ready?  I mean before they have 
dropped support for it).  By the time MicroSquish were ready for multi-cores 
linux already had it in even lowly 1 'man' 32bit distros.  MicroSquish still 
can't cope with multiple hard-drives in anything but a very broken way.  Mmm, 
shortcut links (that often break) to certain folders, tasty. Multi-user 
'security' in Windows is still badly implemented, even for single users it is a 
joke but one that people put a huge amount of effort into without actually 
solving the inherent flaws in the system.  Are Windows 32biut versions able to 
handle threading well in multi-core machines?  Do their 64bit versions work for 
everything else yet?

People still have low expectations and low levels of understanding about their 
systems, at least outside of linux-world.  People just don't care about poorly 
produced reports or other documents.  It is what they are used to now.   Shops 
are happy to sell extra hard-drives without making it easy to access them.  
Blame the user and shame them into not daring to ask questions.

Also the forks/off-shoots that have gone on to develop further (such as the 
various Spanish Governments ones) have fed back into Ubuntu main as have nifty 
developments first seen in a plethora of totally unrelated distros.

Linux kernel developments have benefitted Ubuntu hugely too of course.

Yes, Ubuntu has moved on hugely in the past couple of years but this is not 
always purely down to Ubuntu's work.  OpenSource is really fantastic like that 
:)

Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 01:50, Faldegast <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
>> Nobody thinks of paying a yearly license for having tubes in the wall
>> - no - people pay the plumber when they need him/her for putting
>> additional tubes or doing repair work. I think, it should be the same
>> for software. The advantage of software is that it can be easier
>> duplicated and easier offered than the tubes.
> Actually they do. Its called insurance. You pay a monthly fee and if your 
> tubes need to be repaired you are not hit with a overwhelming cost.

You are right - and I mixed up a few different models. My tube example
was comparing to a Windows license and not to a model where you get
the software and pay extra and optional for support - as Red Hat
offers for example.


> Perhaps this should be integrated with Ubuntu brainstorm, and other sites 
> where such pledges get more exposure?
> There are also cofundos.org, and possibly other sites?

I would find it good to combine/link Launchpad with brainstorm and
integrate something like pledgebank or cofundos - Whether it is a bug
or a new feature request, I don't see so much difference in how it
should be handled. Even for bugs sometimes it turns out that a
complete different solution is better than a quick-and-dirty fix.


> I am talking about a commercial version with support, marketing and 
> distribution. And more important, an OEM program.

Oh, I understand - I thought that such also already exists. ASFAIK
everyone can buy support from Canonical. I personally find those extra
commercial versions which maybe include additional patches or maybe
not is not very attractive. I like to have one thing and pay for the
appropriate support when I have a problem that could need the
implementation of a particular fix.


> Actually i think Microsoft expect Students to buy a computer with an OEM
> license and then get the student version, and actually pay more then
> they have to

That was exactly what I meant. They try to create a dependency.


>> DonationCoder (http://www.donationcoder.com/) also have several
>> approaches for funding software development, from micro-donations up
>> to custom-made software request handling through forums. I think, to
>> build an "Ubuntu" for people seeking for programs to be written or
>> bugs to be fixed, combined with a simple way of donation/payment,
>> would be a big gain for Ubuntu. - Especially for companies with need
>> to optimize their overall performance (and the computer is often an
>> important tool for efficient administration in a company).
> Actually i think that is great. But most users don't take time for this. They 
> would rather buy a box and expect the source of that box to fund such 
> development.

Yes, agree - not the home users - but you were refering to companies
with commercial versions and support. The companies are important to
address. IMHO in the home user field Ubuntu cannot be stopped any more
in the long run - especially if Ubuntu continues to develop so well as
it did in the last one or two years.

Of course - as also has been mentioned - it is important to attract
developers to address Linux also. Most Windows developers I know are
completely ignorant of everything else but Windows although they get
beaten by their master (this year use winforms, the next year - oh no
- switch to wpf please). One reason might be that software development
is under pressure anyway already (so many software vendors - and
basically no money needed for a startup or single person to get
started). Addressing multiple environments increases complexity
signiicantly. And packaging then also must be done separately for each
platform.

And what options are for a platform agnostic way? Java, Python and
Mono - and several very little other players. I do not consider C(++)
here because it needs recompile on all supported platforms which then
must be maintained at developer side (compiling from source is not an
option for getting widely adopted). From those 3 only Java is very
well established and many try to ban it to server side only although
IMHO the option with the least required effort to make it work on all
platforms. Python would also be a good choice but the runtime not
widely spread so far (I don't know any Windows workstations at
customers where the Python runtime is installed). So for the
developers or software vendors it is not an easy thing to develop for
multiple platforms - maybe a reason why so many new softwares come as
web application and desktop applications still focus on the Windows
platform. What does Canonical recommend for companies planning a
migration to Ubuntu on the desktop within the next - let's say - 5
years? What should companies do if they need some software development
now?

OK, this maybe again not seems very relevant to Bug #1, but IMHO there
are many factors playing together. Home users buy there hardware often
at different shops where companies do and I guess Bug #1 would like to
address bot

RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

> On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 23:21, Faldegast <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> > In 2007 the market for a software store was very immature. Now everyone
> > got one. There is Appstore, Android Market, Chrome Web Store, and
> > Microsofts specs for Windows 8 suggests they are planning one.
> 
> I think it is necessary to have a software store - for one reason:
> Just to make it easy to buy the commercial software one wants to use -
> and then of course the installation must be easy (which on Ubuntu in
> general already is). If it is hard for people to find, buy and install
> the software they want to use (and maybe don't know the name of the
> tool upfront), they might blame the OS for it.
I think thats one reason. Attracting the developers that currently does not 
target Ubuntu/Linux is another.

 
> That said, regarding making money with/for/from Ubuntu (I read in the
> news about the money perspective) I thought of the core advantage of
> Open Source Software: Pay for effort - for work.
> 
> Nobody thinks of paying a yearly license for having tubes in the wall
> - no - people pay the plumber when they need him/her for putting
> additional tubes or doing repair work. I think, it should be the same
> for software. The advantage of software is that it can be easier
> duplicated and easier offered than the tubes.
Actually they do. Its called insurance. You pay a monthly fee and if your tubes 
need to be repaired you are not hit with a overwhelming cost.
And thats quite similar to software support agreements. You pay a yearly fee 
and when you run into problems, you have someone that will fix it. There is a 
huge difference between FOSS business models and closed source business models. 
If i don't want commercial support, i can download and use the software. If i 
want commersial support I can buy RHEL subscriptions, as an example. The 
software however, is still free.

> In addition to a software store I think what should be introduced in
> the same easy way is something like pledgebank
> (http://www.pledgebank.com/) - a platform that allows to easily put
> money together for implementing feature x or asking for fixing the bug
> y. Let's say 20 companies are asking for the same thing that maybe
> costs - lets say - 1 dollar to implement/fix, it would cost 500
> per company. And this payed for one developer working for
> approximately a month (assuming a country with high taxes).
Perhaps this should be integrated with Ubuntu brainstorm, and other sites where 
such pledges get more exposure?
There are also cofundos.org, and possibly other sites?

> Asking money for using Ubuntu in general (if it is only 10 Dollar, I
> read about such ideas a few days ago) is not a good idea IMHO. In
> Hungary for example Microsoft is asking a similar amount for student
> version of Windows+MSOffice (yes it is like drug-dealing in front of
> the schools...).

We already have such an offer for students. Its available for download at 
www.ubuntu.org. :)
I am talking about a commercial version with support, marketing and 
distribution. And more important, an OEM program. 

Actually i think Microsoft expect Students to buy a computer with an OEM
license and then get the student version, and actually pay more then
they have to and thats even more evil...

> DonationCoder (http://www.donationcoder.com/) also have several
> approaches for funding software development, from micro-donations up
> to custom-made software request handling through forums. I think, to
> build an "Ubuntu" for people seeking for programs to be written or
> bugs to be fixed, combined with a simple way of donation/payment,
> would be a big gain for Ubuntu. - Especially for companies with need
> to optimize their overall performance (and the computer is often an
> important tool for efficient administration in a company).
Actually i think that is great. But most users don't take time for this. They 
would rather buy a box and expect the source of that box to fund such 
development.

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Sat, Oct 23, 2010 at 23:21, Faldegast <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> In 2007 the market for a software store was very immature. Now everyone
> got one. There is Appstore, Android Market, Chrome Web Store, and
> Microsofts specs for Windows 8 suggests they are planning one.

I think it is necessary to have a software store - for one reason:
Just to make it easy to buy the commercial software one wants to use -
and then of course the installation must be easy (which on Ubuntu in
general already is). If it is hard for people to find, buy and install
the software they want to use (and maybe don't know the name of the
tool upfront), they might blame the OS for it.

That said, regarding making money with/for/from Ubuntu (I read in the
news about the money perspective) I thought of the core advantage of
Open Source Software: Pay for effort - for work.

Nobody thinks of paying a yearly license for having tubes in the wall
- no - people pay the plumber when they need him/her for putting
additional tubes or doing repair work. I think, it should be the same
for software. The advantage of software is that it can be easier
duplicated and easier offered than the tubes.

In addition to a software store I think what should be introduced in
the same easy way is something like pledgebank
(http://www.pledgebank.com/) - a platform that allows to easily put
money together for implementing feature x or asking for fixing the bug
y. Let's say 20 companies are asking for the same thing that maybe
costs - lets say - 1 dollar to implement/fix, it would cost 500
per company. And this payed for one developer working for
approximately a month (assuming a country with high taxes).

Asking money for using Ubuntu in general (if it is only 10 Dollar, I
read about such ideas a few days ago) is not a good idea IMHO. In
Hungary for example Microsoft is asking a similar amount for student
version of Windows+MSOffice (yes it is like drug-dealing in front of
the schools...).

DonationCoder (http://www.donationcoder.com/) also have several
approaches for funding software development, from micro-donations up
to custom-made software request handling through forums. I think, to
build an "Ubuntu" for people seeking for programs to be written or
bugs to be fixed, combined with a simple way of donation/payment,
would be a big gain for Ubuntu. - Especially for companies with need
to optimize their overall performance (and the computer is often an
important tool for efficient administration in a company).

-- 
Martin Wildam

http://www.google.com/profiles/mwildam

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RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

Ok. Now I found it. :)

I don't think the USC need to be replaced. I will read more about it and
perhaps write a blueprint with whatever ideas i get.

> @Faldegast
> 
> The Ubuntu Software Centre (USC) is the way software gets distributed to
> Ubuntu users. It can accommodate FLOSS, proprietary, and more. New in
> 10.10 there is a section in USC for commercial apps (that cost money)
> too. The one thing that all software in USC has in common though is that
> it is known to work with Ubuntu and can be installed with a single
> click. (USC is not a place to collect and distribute random software
> from unknown sources though.)
> 
> So, are you advocating something bigger than USC? A replacement for it?
> A more diverse collection of software? Some new features? If so, the
> best way to proceed would be to write a Blueprint and engage in a
> discussion with the USC development team. There is a good background
> document here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Randall Ross (rrnwexec)]

@Faldegast

The Ubuntu Software Centre (USC) is the way software gets distributed to
Ubuntu users. It can accommodate FLOSS, proprietary, and more. New in
10.10 there is a section in USC for commercial apps (that cost money)
too. The one thing that all software in USC has in common though is that
it is known to work with Ubuntu and can be installed with a single
click. (USC is not a place to collect and distribute random software
from unknown sources though.)

So, are you advocating something bigger than USC? A replacement for it?
A more diverse collection of software? Some new features? If so, the
best way to proceed would be to write a Blueprint and engage in a
discussion with the USC development team. There is a good background
document here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter


On 10-10-23 02:21 PM, Faldegast wrote:
> I think that the official name for CNR is something else now.
>
> In 2007 the market for a software store was very immature. Now everyone
> got one. There is Appstore, Android Market, Chrome Web Store, and
> Microsofts specs for Windows 8 suggests they are planning one.
>
> Yeah, there is people that is not interested in using commercial
> applications. Then just dont, just because we add something like cnr
> doesnt mean you have to use it.
>
> I don't find mixing the FOSS stuff with commercial apps a bad idea.
> However i would vote for a way to disable it. Technically they should be
> in their own repo(s), and therefore easy to enable/disable. Just like we
> handle non-FOSS like flash player right now.
>
> This is not for the hardcore Linux users. I probably would buy some
> games but nothing else, and many others would not buy anything at all.
> This is for avarage joe that wants his familiar applications easily
> available.
>

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RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

I think that the official name for CNR is something else now.

In 2007 the market for a software store was very immature. Now everyone
got one. There is Appstore, Android Market, Chrome Web Store, and
Microsofts specs for Windows 8 suggests they are planning one.

Yeah, there is people that is not interested in using commercial
applications. Then just dont, just because we add something like cnr
doesnt mean you have to use it.

I don't find mixing the FOSS stuff with commercial apps a bad idea.
However i would vote for a way to disable it. Technically they should be
in their own repo(s), and therefore easy to enable/disable. Just like we
handle non-FOSS like flash player right now.

This is not for the hardcore Linux users. I probably would buy some
games but nothing else, and many others would not buy anything at all.
This is for avarage joe that wants his familiar applications easily
available.

> On 10/23/2010 07:00 AM, Faldegast wrote:
> > Take a look at Xandros and their success. CNR seam to work quite well,
> > just to bad that their OS is...
> 
> In 2006, there was an announcement of CNR for Ubuntu.  It was actually 
> in Hardy.  It never went anywhere.  See 
> http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2007/02/10/a-dnr-for-linspires-cnr/ for an 
> example of the response.  I do agree that the software "store" could use 
> more prominence, but mixing it up with the FOSS stuff is a bad idea to me.
> 
> Also, cnr.com appears to be down right now...  Amusing timing. :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[houstonbofh]

On 10/23/2010 07:00 AM, Faldegast wrote:
> Take a look at Xandros and their success. CNR seam to work quite well,
> just to bad that their OS is...

In 2006, there was an announcement of CNR for Ubuntu.  It was actually 
in Hardy.  It never went anywhere.  See 
http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2007/02/10/a-dnr-for-linspires-cnr/ for an 
example of the response.  I do agree that the software "store" could use 
more prominence, but mixing it up with the FOSS stuff is a bad idea to me.

Also, cnr.com appears to be down right now...  Amusing timing. :)

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RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

1) "Linux (commonly pronounced /ˈlɪnəks/ LIN-əks in American English,[4][5] 
also pronounced /ˈlɪnʊks/ LIN-ooks[6] in Europe and Canada) refers to the 
family of Unix-like computer operating systems using the Linux kernel."
Thats the common use of the word "Linux" and its quite obvious that i did not 
talk about the kernel.

2) Thats actually what most people are doing in order to spread Ubuntu,
and I agree that it is a good method to spread Ubuntu in a place where
Windows cant go. This is not something i suggested, but stated my
approval of. There was someone else that posted that they was doing this
for people that cannot afford new computers.

3) Yes. And we do not really have a problem on the server side.

4) The creation of a store for both Ubuntu and non-Ubuntu would not be
nightmarish using PackageKit. A store? Can you buy applications in USC?
How do I add a commercial application to that store?

My favourite would actually be something like Java Store. However it
would only be good for the few Java applications out there.

Take a look at Xandros and their success. CNR seam to work quite well,
just to bad that their OS is...

Also supporting other OS:es is not a hard requirement.

> @faldegast:
> 1) Why would we market a kernel?
> 2) Running Ubuntu on scrap/old is not putting our best foot forward, and
> creates support issues.
> 3) For the server side, we have Ubuntu Server.
> 4) Ubuntu Software Centre is just that: a store for Ubuntu-compatible
> software. The extension of USC to non-Ubuntu platforms would be
> nightmarish in complexity.

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RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

No, not really. They did have a "pro" version yes, but they don't have a 
distribution network.

What i am suggesting is the business model that Microsoft has. Copy that
and we will take market share from them.

> @faldegast. You are suggesting an approach that led to mandriva 's
> downfall.
> On Oct 22, 2010 10:26 AM, "Faldegast" <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> >
> > What i suggest for Ubuntu is the following:
> >
> > 1. A Ubuntu/Linux/Elf software store. It should be designed so that it
> > can ship applications for many OS:es, not just Ubuntu.
> >
> > 2. A Ubuntu Pro commercial offering. Including boxed Ubuntu, a manual,
> > and support. Also some commercial stuff like DVD player.
> >
> > Ubuntu currently has Fluendo Windows Media and MP3 Playback Pack, Fluendo
> Complete Playback Pack and PowerDVD Linux in its online shop. These should
> either be provided trough a software store, or included in "Ubuntu Pro".
> > I would also see more commercial Linux applications there. For example i
> know there is a Ubuntu version of Majesty. I know for sure that i would buy
> that.
> >
> > 3. Both of above need a reseller plan. OEMs that preinstall a software
> > store or Ubuntu Pro have to make money out of it. And Ubuntu pro should
> > not be cheap.
> >
> > A software store and a commercial Linux with a distribution network is
> > what we need. I am certain that this is exactly what we need. For
> > servers we have RHEL but for clients the only thing available is
> > Mandriva, but they effort to build a distribution network is to weak.
> > They focus on an online store, and I believe thats their weakness.
> > Operating Systems is OEM products and they are usually sold with
> > computers, so we must target the OEM builders.
> >
> > While i have talked a lot about technology on this issue, technology is
> > not a #1 bug issue. We have technology, what we need to fix bug #1 is
> > marketing.
> >
> > There is no reason why Linux should have less usage share then OS X.
> > Linux can run on much more hardware that OS X supports, and it have a
> > great community.
> >
> > On another front, i think the idea of recycling old computers with
> > Ubuntu and give them to those that cannot afford a brand new PC is
> > excellent. I have done this a lot with lubuntu on really old computers.
> > I also have a ThinLinc server that can be used to run applications that
> > old computers are to weak to run. Its not fast enough for youtube,
> > however they can play mpeg2. Perhaps an application like minitube can
> > use a proxy server for transcoding to mpeg2 before a clip reach the old
> > box?

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Eisenhardt]

Get lost. We will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if you are worthy  
of our attention.

On 23.10.2010, at 07:30, Setve Gentilly wrote:

> You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
> that..
>
> I am a senior technician for windows systems with many  
> certifications, and
> they warned me about your type
>
> Maybe Windows is the best system...
>
> I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
> attention.
>
> Gentilli.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:41 PM, »John« <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi guys.
>> I don't mean to be rude; I just want the message to be perfectly  
>> clear
>> because we've been through this shit for like million times already  
>> and
>> I'm simply getting sick and tired of hearing the same stupid whining
>> over and over again. Bad hardware support is always caused by stupid
>> hardware manufacturers and not the operating system in question,  
>> because
>> someone needs to write the damn drivers! If you leave that up to  
>> them,
>> they pretty much always end up spitting out some half broken piece of
>> binary crap, not to mention they probably won't even bother if the
>> particular operating system isn't used by what they believe to be  
>> enough
>> of their potential customers. I guess you can see why we have a  
>> problem
>> with that and every single operating system is gonna be plagued by  
>> the
>> exact same problem until it reaches critical mass. In fact, all they
>> need to do in order for their stuff to be fully and reliably  
>> supported
>> on free operating systems is to publicly release the programming
>> documentation (because writing properly working drivers without it
>> within reasonable time frame is impossible), but many of them are  
>> simply
>> too stupid to understand that. Until that changes, we're simply  
>> screwed,
>> because we're stuck with either crap that can (and will) stop working
>> any time or with nothing at all and there's absolutely not a damn  
>> thing
>> you can do about that by yet another pointless GNU/Linux (BSD,  
>> Solaris,
>> whatever) rant! So, unless you have some constructive criticism or  
>> other
>> valuable ideas, please go post your whining somewhere else!
>>
>> --
>> Microsoft has a majority market share
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
>> You received this bug notification because you are a direct  
>> subscriber
>> of the bug.
>>
>> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
>> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
>> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
>> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
>> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
>> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
>> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
>> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
>> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
>> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
>> Status in Tv-Player: New
>> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
>> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
>> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
>> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
>> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
>> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>>
>> Bug description:
>> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC  
>> marketplace.
>> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>>
>> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
>> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population  
>> and
>> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full  
>> potential,
>> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>>
>> Steps to repeat:
>>
>> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>>
>> What happens:
>> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
>> pre-installed.
>> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>>
>> What should happen:
>> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software  
>> like
>> Ubuntu.
>> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing  
>> features and
>> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
>> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time  
>> passes.
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>>
>>
>
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> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[zakzor]

"...they warned me about your type..."???
  One of the certifications is the "brainwash" one.

@Gentilli: Try to judge people by yourself and not by labels and what 
other say.

zakzor

> You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
> that..
>
> I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
> they warned me about your type
>
> Maybe Windows is the best system...
>
> I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
> attention.
>
> Gentilli.

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Eisenhardt]

Get lost. We will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if you are worthy  
of our attention.

On 23.10.2010, at 07:31, Setve Gentilly wrote:

> You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
> that..
>
> I am a senior technician for windows systems with many  
> certifications, and
> they warned me about your type
>
> Maybe Windows is the best system...
>
> I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
> attention.
>
> Gentilli.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:05 PM, houstonbofh <1...@bugs.launchpad.net>  
> wrote:
>
>> On 10/20/2010 04:41 PM, »John« wrote:
>>> ... not to mention they probably won't even bother if the
>>> particular operating system isn't used by what they believe to be  
>>> enough
>>> of their potential customers. I guess you can see why we have a  
>>> problem
>>> with that and every single operating system is gonna be plagued by  
>>> the
>>> exact same problem until it reaches critical mass.
>>
>> This happens with Windows as well.  Why write a new driver just  
>> because
>> the new version of Windows doesn't work with it?  With bad drivers,  
>> you
>> will get bit, whatever OS you run.  I have a lovely PaperPort scanner
>> that I keep around as just such an object lesson.  It only has  
>> Windows
>> 95 drivers unless you BUY a new one for more than the cost of a  
>> scanner.
>> This is not a Linux bug, but for some reason, Linux gets the blame,
>> and Windows and the hardware manufactures get a pass.
>>
>> --
>> Microsoft has a majority market share
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
>> You received this bug notification because you are a direct  
>> subscriber
>> of the bug.
>>
>> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
>> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
>> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
>> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
>> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
>> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
>> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
>> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
>> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
>> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
>> Status in Tv-Player: New
>> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
>> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
>> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
>> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
>> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
>> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>>
>> Bug description:
>> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC  
>> marketplace.
>> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>>
>> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
>> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population  
>> and
>> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full  
>> potential,
>> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>>
>> Steps to repeat:
>>
>> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>>
>> What happens:
>> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
>> pre-installed.
>> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>>
>> What should happen:
>> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software  
>> like
>> Ubuntu.
>> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing  
>> features and
>> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
>> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time  
>> passes.
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>>
>>
>
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> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Eisenhardt]

Get lost. We will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if you are worthy  
of our attention.

On 23.10.2010, at 07:33, Setve Gentilly wrote:

> You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
> that..
>
> I am a senior technician for windows systems with many  
> certifications, and
> they warned me about your type
>
> Maybe Windows is the best system...
>
> I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
> attention.
>
> Gentilli.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:10 PM, Randall Ross (rrnwexec) <
> rand...@executiv.es> wrote:
>
>> The concept of a computer being a "bicycle for the mind" might be
>> helpful here, and might be worth revisiting.
>>
>> If we (society) are "training" our students purely to be "users"
>> (consumers) of software then we will see the exact effect that you
>> describe (in the domain of OS'es and computing, at least). (Bug #1  
>> has
>> in effect created a whole generation of consumers who view  
>> computers as
>> a way to get to entertainment).
>>
>> We should instead be aiming to teach people to be creators and
>> contributors, so their information access tools remain robust and  
>> enable
>> any one to get to any and all information they need to educate
>> themselves.  Ubuntu is taking that challenge head-on. However, we're
>> still not able to channel all the energy that is lost to distractions
>> such as Facebook, YouTube, Farmville, WoW, and similar things that  
>> also
>> tend to "dumb down" (or at least divert). That will require a lot  
>> more
>> code...
>>
>> On 10-10-20 02:48 PM, »John« wrote:
>>> One more thing:
>>> I'm incredibly sorry to say so, but I forgot to mention that "that
>>> reason" is probably more and more people being stupid and getting  
>>> more
>>> and more stupid as the time passes - that's a sad fact that probably
>>> just about every teacher out there can confirm (I recently joined  
>>> the
>>> club and pretty much the whole class - almost all of them senior  
>>> teacher
>>> professionals - seems to be thinking the same); no offence to anyone
>>> here intended.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Microsoft has a majority market share
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
>> You received this bug notification because you are a direct  
>> subscriber
>> of the bug.
>>
>> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
>> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
>> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
>> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
>> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
>> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
>> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
>> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
>> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
>> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
>> Status in Tv-Player: New
>> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
>> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
>> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
>> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
>> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
>> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>>
>> Bug description:
>> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC  
>> marketplace.
>> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>>
>> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
>> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population  
>> and
>> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full  
>> potential,
>> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>>
>> Steps to repeat:
>>
>> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>>
>> What happens:
>> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
>> pre-installed.
>> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>>
>> What should happen:
>> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software  
>> like
>> Ubuntu.
>> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing  
>> features and
>> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
>> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time  
>> passes.
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Eisenhardt]

Get lost. We will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if you are worthy  
of our attention.

On 23.10.2010, at 07:32, Setve Gentilly wrote:

> You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
> that..
>
> I am a senior technician for windows systems with many  
> certifications, and
> they warned me about your type
>
> Maybe Windows is the best system...
>
> I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
> attention.
>
> Gentilli.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:48 PM, »John« <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
>
>>> This is not a Linux bug, but for some reason, Linux gets the blame,
>> and Windows and the hardware manufactures get a pass.
>>
>> One more thing:
>> I'm incredibly sorry to say so, but I forgot to mention that "that
>> reason" is probably more and more people being stupid and getting  
>> more
>> and more stupid as the time passes - that's a sad fact that probably
>> just about every teacher out there can confirm (I recently joined the
>> club and pretty much the whole class - almost all of them senior  
>> teacher
>> professionals - seems to be thinking the same); no offence to anyone
>> here intended.
>>
>> --
>> Microsoft has a majority market share
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
>> You received this bug notification because you are a direct  
>> subscriber
>> of the bug.
>>
>> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
>> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
>> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
>> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
>> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
>> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
>> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
>> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
>> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
>> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
>> Status in Tv-Player: New
>> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
>> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
>> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
>> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
>> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
>> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>>
>> Bug description:
>> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC  
>> marketplace.
>> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>>
>> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
>> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population  
>> and
>> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full  
>> potential,
>> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>>
>> Steps to repeat:
>>
>> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>>
>> What happens:
>> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
>> pre-installed.
>> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>>
>> What should happen:
>> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software  
>> like
>> Ubuntu.
>> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing  
>> features and
>> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
>> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time  
>> passes.
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.

-- 
Microsoft has a majority market share
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is a direct subscriber.

-- 
ubuntu-bugs mailing list
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https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Eisenhardt]

Get lost. We will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if you are worthy  
of our attention.

On 23.10.2010, at 07:32, Setve Gentilly wrote:

> You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
> that..
>
> I am a senior technician for windows systems with many  
> certifications, and
> they warned me about your type
>
> Maybe Windows is the best system...
>
> I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
> attention.
>
> Gentilli.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:21 PM, »John« <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
>
>>> With bad drivers, you will get bit, whatever OS you run.
>>> This is not a Linux bug, but for some reason, Linux gets the  
>>> blame, and
>> Windows and the hardware manufactures get a pass.
>>
>> My point exactly.
>>
>> --
>> Microsoft has a majority market share
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
>> You received this bug notification because you are a direct  
>> subscriber
>> of the bug.
>>
>> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
>> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
>> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
>> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
>> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
>> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
>> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
>> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
>> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
>> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
>> Status in Tv-Player: New
>> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
>> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
>> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
>> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
>> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
>> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>>
>> Bug description:
>> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC  
>> marketplace.
>> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>>
>> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
>> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population  
>> and
>> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full  
>> potential,
>> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>>
>> Steps to repeat:
>>
>> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>>
>> What happens:
>> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
>> pre-installed.
>> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>>
>> What should happen:
>> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software  
>> like
>> Ubuntu.
>> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing  
>> features and
>> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
>> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time  
>> passes.
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.

-- 
Microsoft has a majority market share
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is a direct subscriber.

-- 
ubuntu-bugs mailing list
ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Eisenhardt]

Get lost. We will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if you are worthy  
of our attention.

On 23.10.2010, at 07:27, Setve Gentilly wrote:

> You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
> that..
>
> I am a senior technician for windows systems with many  
> certifications, and
> they warned me about your type
>
> Maybe Windows is the best system...
>
> I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
> attention.
>
> Gentilli.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Randall Ross (rrnwexec) <
> rand...@executiv.es> wrote:
>
>> Quite true.
>>
>> If you've ever watched a new user work with Ubuntu, you'll likely  
>> have
>> noticed that they have a much easier time than "experienced" computer
>> users. No bad habits to unlearn, and they tend to involve themselves
>> less with "tinkering" on unsupported (and uncertified) hardware.
>>
>>
>>> You want Ubuntu to be as easy for a beginner to install with no
>>> experience as Windows is for an expert with years of experience.   
>>> That
>>> is the bug...  Unreasonable expectations.  And the thought that
>>> "Windows" is "Computer" and if you know "Windows" you know  
>>> "computers."
>>>  Not so helpfull with Mac, Linux, HP-UX, Aix, Solaris, AS400, VMS,  
>>> or a
>>> number of accounting specific systems.  Now if you give the same  
>>> test to
>>> your grandmother, I bet Linux is easier.
>>>
>>> And this is the reason I responded.  People keep looking at the  
>>> wrong
>>> bug.  The bug is that we did not tell you this BEFORE you  
>>> started.  Now
>>> it is too late...
>>
>> --
>> Microsoft has a majority market share
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
>> You received this bug notification because you are a direct  
>> subscriber
>> of the bug.
>>
>> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
>> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
>> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
>> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
>> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
>> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
>> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
>> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
>> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
>> Status in Tv-Player: New
>> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
>> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
>> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
>> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
>> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
>> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>>
>> Bug description:
>> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC  
>> marketplace.
>> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>>
>> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
>> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population  
>> and
>> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full  
>> potential,
>> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>>
>> Steps to repeat:
>>
>> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>>
>> What happens:
>> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
>> pre-installed.
>> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>>
>> What should happen:
>> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software  
>> like
>> Ubuntu.
>> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing  
>> features and
>> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
>> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time  
>> passes.
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.

-- 
Microsoft has a majority market share
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is a direct subscriber.

-- 
ubuntu-bugs mailing list
ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Eisenhardt]

Get lost. We will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if you are worthy  
of our attention.

On 23.10.2010, at 07:26, Setve Gentilly wrote:

> You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
> that..
>
> I am a senior technician for windows systems with many  
> certifications, and
> they warned me about your type
>
> Maybe Windows is the best system...
>
> I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
> attention.
>
> Gentilli.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:14 PM, houstonbofh <1...@bugs.launchpad.net>  
> wrote:
>
>> On 10/20/2010 02:21 PM, Setve Gentilly wrote:
>>
>>> When I get a new system (which I get regularly) after it is  
>>> assembled it
>>> take me 1 to 1.5 hours to install Windows, the drivers and the  
>>> necessary
>>> software to get it to function at 100% efficiency.  I don't have  
>>> the time
>> to
>>> fart around and mess with Operating systems and drivers that don't  
>>> even
>> run
>>> on a double click from the mouse, nor do I have the time to learn  
>>> a new
>>> programing language (although I do know a few), no thank you.
>>
>> I have expertise in both Windows and Linux.  Windows takes longer.
>> Mainly it is the massive amount of reboots between updates and  
>> drivers.
>> Also, the install is far to interactive, not set it and forget it.   
>> As
>> an aside, the only programming language I know is Perl, and I haven't
>> really used in in years.
>>
>>> Let me give you an example, I installed Ubuntu 10.10RC on an AMD  
>>> machine
>>> with an Asus board and an XFX HD 5770.  When it came time to  
>>> install the
>> ATI
>>> drivers from ATI, I ran the package and it said nothing to me so I
>> rebooted
>>> and guess what, it was not installed. So I then proceeded to  
>>> install the
>>> third party drivers that Ubuntu suggested.  Well, what a great  
>>> performing
>>> card It gave 50GFLOPS instead of the 1400GFLOPS Windows  
>>> gives me.
>>> I don't have time to fart around for days or weeks to get the  
>>> machine
>>> working 100%.
>>
>> You installed a beta, and it was not perfect?  Really?  And those  
>> Vista
>> betas were so smooth...  And you had ATI driver problems?  That is
>> surely an Ubuntu issue.
>> http://www.google.com/search?q=ati+driver+problems  Or maybe not.   
>> And
>> why did you go the the ATI website first?  Oh, yes...  You picked up
>> that habit from Windows.  In Ubuntu, you go to the repos first.  And
>> yes, the ATI Linux drivers are worse than the Windows drivers for  
>> many
>> ATI cards.  One reason I like nVidia. (On both platforms)
>>
>>> When Ubuntu is as easy to install as Windows, then I will have  
>>> another
>> look
>>> at it.
>>
>> You want Ubuntu to be as easy for a beginner to install with no
>> experience as Windows is for an expert with years of experience.   
>> That
>> is the bug...  Unreasonable expectations.  And the thought that
>> "Windows" is "Computer" and if you know "Windows" you know  
>> "computers."
>> Not so helpfull with Mac, Linux, HP-UX, Aix, Solaris, AS400, VMS,  
>> or a
>> number of accounting specific systems.  Now if you give the same  
>> test to
>> your grandmother, I bet Linux is easier.
>>
>> And this is the reason I responded.  People keep looking at the wrong
>> bug.  The bug is that we did not tell you this BEFORE you started.   
>> Now
>> it is too late...
>>
>> --
>> Microsoft has a majority market share
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
>> You received this bug notification because you are a direct  
>> subscriber
>> of the bug.
>>
>> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
>> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
>> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
>> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
>> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
>> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
>> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
>> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
>> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
>> Status in Tv-Player: New
>> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
>> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
>> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
>> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
>> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
>> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>>
>> Bug description:
>> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC  
>> marketplace.
>> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>>
>> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
>> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population  
>> and
>> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full  
>> potential,
>> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>>
>> Steps to repeat:
>>
>> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>>
>> What happens:
>> 2. 

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Delan Azabani]

Please don't spam your comment multiple times to be heard (you won't
be). Also, it is quite rude to refer to us as 'your type'; if you don't
think Ubuntu is 'worthy of your attention' then please stop and leave.

-- 
Microsoft has a majority market share
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is a direct subscriber.

-- 
ubuntu-bugs mailing list
ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Randall Ross (rrnwexec) <
rand...@executiv.es> wrote:

> @mzc
> I agree.
>
> @faldegast:
> 1) Why would we market a kernel?
> 2) Running Ubuntu on scrap/old is not putting our best foot forward, and
> creates support issues.
> 3) For the server side, we have Ubuntu Server.
> 4) Ubuntu Software Centre is just that: a store for Ubuntu-compatible
> software. The extension of USC to non-Ubuntu platforms would be
> nightmarish in complexity.
>
>
> On 10-10-22 10:37 AM, mzc wrote:
> > @faldegast. You are suggesting an approach that led to mandriva 's
> > downfall.
> > On Oct 22, 2010 10:26 AM, "Faldegast" <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> >> What i suggest for Ubuntu is the following:
> >>
> >> 1. A Ubuntu/Linux/Elf software store. It should be designed so that it
> >> can ship applications for many OS:es, not just Ubuntu.
> >>
> >> 2. A Ubuntu Pro commercial offering. Including boxed Ubuntu, a manual,
> >> and support. Also some commercial stuff like DVD player.
> >>
> >> Ubuntu currently has Fluendo Windows Media and MP3 Playback Pack,
> Fluendo
> > Complete Playback Pack and PowerDVD Linux in its online shop. These
> should
> > either be provided trough a software store, or included in "Ubuntu Pro".
> >> I would also see more commercial Linux applications there. For example i
> > know there is a Ubuntu version of Majesty. I know for sure that i would
> buy
> > that.
> >> 3. Both of above need a reseller plan. OEMs that preinstall a software
> >> store or Ubuntu Pro have to make money out of it. And Ubuntu pro should
> >> not be cheap.
> >>
> >> A software store and a commercial Linux with a distribution network is
> >> what we need. I am certain that this is exactly what we need. For
> >> servers we have RHEL but for clients the only thing available is
> >> Mandriva, but they effort to build a distribution network is to weak.
> >> They focus on an online store, and I believe thats their weakness.
> >> Operating Systems is OEM products and they are usually sold with
> >> computers, so we must target the OEM builders.
> >>
> >> While i have talked a lot about technology on this issue, technology is
> >> not a #1 bug issue. We have technology, what we need to fix bug #1 is
> >> marketing.
> >>
> >> There is no reason why Linux should have less usage share then OS X.
> >> Linux can run on much more hardware that OS X supports, and it have a
> >> great community.
> >>
> >> On another front, i think the idea of recycling old computers with
> >> Ubuntu and give them to those that cannot afford a brand new PC is
> >> excellent. I have done this a lot with lubuntu on really old computers.
> >> I also have a ThinLinc server that can be used to run applications that
> >> old computers are to weak to run. Its not fast enough for youtube,
> >> however they can play mpeg2. Perhaps an application like minitube can
> >> use a proxy server for transcoding to mpeg2 before a clip reach the old
> >> box?
> >>
> >>
> >>> Martin,
> >>>
> >>> True. Again i agree with that and i think we are in agreement again. So
> > the
> >>> various points people have made are valid except where we talk about
> > noobs
> >>> installing.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Surely a shop that installs to perhaps tens of machines has time to
> play
> > around
> >>> with even just 1 and has probably noticed all the quirkiness of
> > installing
> >>> Windows onto a wide range of very different machines and might realise
> > that
> >>> lack of knowledge might be the main barrier to a smoother install of
> > Ubuntu (or
> >>> other distro). Perhaps it is those people that we should target rather
> > than
> >>> normal users or people that do the odd one or two. Continuing to
> approach
> > both
> >>> is probably still best.
> >>>
> >>> Regards from
> >>> Tom :)
> >> --
> >> Microsoft has a majority market share
> >> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> >> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> >> of the bug.
> >>
> >> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> >> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> >> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> >> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> >> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> >> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> >> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> >> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
> >> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> >> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> >> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> >> Status in Tv-Player: New
> >> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> >> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> >> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Inval

Re: RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 1:37 PM, mzc <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> @faldegast. You are suggesting an approach that led to mandriva 's
> downfall.
> On Oct 22, 2010 10:26 AM, "Faldegast" <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> >
> > What i suggest for Ubuntu is the following:
> >
> > 1. A Ubuntu/Linux/Elf software store. It should be designed so that it
> > can ship applications for many OS:es, not just Ubuntu.
> >
> > 2. A Ubuntu Pro commercial offering. Including boxed Ubuntu, a manual,
> > and support. Also some commercial stuff like DVD player.
> >
> > Ubuntu currently has Fluendo Windows Media and MP3 Playback Pack, Fluendo
> Complete Playback Pack and PowerDVD Linux in its online shop. These should
> either be provided trough a software store, or included in "Ubuntu Pro".
> > I would also see more commercial Linux applications there. For example i
> know there is a Ubuntu version of Majesty. I know for sure that i would buy
> that.
> >
> > 3. Both of above need a reseller plan. OEMs that preinstall a software
> > store or Ubuntu Pro have to make money out of it. And Ubuntu pro should
> > not be cheap.
> >
> > A software store and a commercial Linux with a distribution network is
> > what we need. I am certain that this is exactly what we need. For
> > servers we have RHEL but for clients the only thing available is
> > Mandriva, but they effort to build a distribution network is to weak.
> > They focus on an online store, and I believe thats their weakness.
> > Operating Systems is OEM products and they are usually sold with
> > computers, so we must target the OEM builders.
> >
> > While i have talked a lot about technology on this issue, technology is
> > not a #1 bug issue. We have technology, what we need to fix bug #1 is
> > marketing.
> >
> > There is no reason why Linux should have less usage share then OS X.
> > Linux can run on much more hardware that OS X supports, and it have a
> > great community.
> >
> > On another front, i think the idea of recycling old computers with
> > Ubuntu and give them to those that cannot afford a brand new PC is
> > excellent. I have done this a lot with lubuntu on really old computers.
> > I also have a ThinLinc server that can be used to run applications that
> > old computers are to weak to run. Its not fast enough for youtube,
> > however they can play mpeg2. Perhaps an application like minitube can
> > use a proxy server for transcoding to mpeg2 before a clip reach the old
> > box?
> >
> >
> >> Martin,
> >>
> >> True. Again i agree with that and i think we are in agreement again. So
> the
> >> various points people have made are valid except where we talk about
> noobs
> >> installing.
> >>
> >>
> >> Surely a shop that installs to perhaps tens of machines has time to play
> around
> >> with even just 1 and has probably noticed all the quirkiness of
> installing
> >> Windows onto a wide range of very different machines and might realise
> that
> >> lack of knowledge might be the main barrier to a smoother install of
> Ubuntu (or
> >> other distro). Perhaps it is those people that we should target rather
> than
> >> normal users or people that do the odd one or two. Continuing to
> approach
> both
> >> is probably still best.
> >>
> >> Regards from
> >> Tom :)
> >
> > --
> > Microsoft has a majority market share
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> > You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> > of the bug.
> >
> > Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> > Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> > Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> > Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> > Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> > Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> > Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> > Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
> > Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> > Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> > Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> > Status in Tv-Player: New
> > Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> > Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> > Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> > Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> > Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> > Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> > Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> > Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> > Status in Tilix Linux: New
> >
> > Bug description:
> > Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> > This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
> >
> > Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting acc

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 1:15 PM, Faldegast <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

>
> What i suggest for Ubuntu is the following:
>
> 1. A Ubuntu/Linux/Elf software store. It should be designed so that it
> can ship applications for many OS:es, not just Ubuntu.
>
> 2. A Ubuntu Pro commercial offering. Including boxed Ubuntu, a manual,
> and support. Also some commercial stuff like DVD player.
>
> Ubuntu currently has Fluendo Windows Media and MP3 Playback Pack, Fluendo
> Complete Playback Pack and PowerDVD Linux in its online shop. These should
> either be provided trough a software store, or included in "Ubuntu Pro".
> I would also see more commercial Linux applications there. For example i
> know there is a Ubuntu version of Majesty. I know for sure that i would buy
> that.
>
> 3. Both of above need a reseller plan. OEMs that preinstall a software
> store or Ubuntu Pro have to make money out of it. And Ubuntu pro should
> not be cheap.
>
> A software store and a commercial Linux with a distribution network is
> what we need. I am certain that this is exactly what we need. For
> servers we have RHEL but for clients the only thing available is
> Mandriva, but they effort to build a distribution network is to weak.
> They focus on an online store, and I believe thats their weakness.
> Operating Systems is OEM products and they are usually sold with
> computers, so we must target the OEM builders.
>
> While i have talked a lot about technology on this issue, technology is
> not a #1 bug issue. We have technology, what we need to fix bug #1 is
> marketing.
>
> There is no reason why Linux should have less usage share then OS X.
> Linux can run on much more hardware that OS X supports, and it have a
> great community.
>
> On another front, i think the idea of recycling old computers with
> Ubuntu and give them to those that cannot afford a brand new PC is
> excellent. I have done this a lot with lubuntu on really old computers.
> I also have a ThinLinc server that can be used to run applications that
> old computers are to weak to run. Its not fast enough for youtube,
> however they can play mpeg2. Perhaps an application like minitube can
> use a proxy server for transcoding to mpeg2 before a clip reach the old
> box?
>
>
> > Martin,
> >
> > True.  Again i agree with that and i think we are in agreement again.  So
> the
> > various points people have made are valid except where we talk about
> noobs
> > installing.
> >
> >
> > Surely a shop that installs to  perhaps tens of machines has time to play
> around
> > with even just 1 and has probably noticed all the quirkiness of
> installing
> > Windows  onto a wide range of very different machines and might realise
> that
> > lack of knowledge might be the main barrier to a smoother install of
> Ubuntu (or
> > other distro).  Perhaps it is those people that we should target rather
> than
> > normal users or people that do the odd one or two.  Continuing to
> approach both
> > is probably still best.
> >
> > Regards from
> > Tom :)
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have n

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Martin Wildam <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 14:07, Tom <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> > This bug report is not about how difficult or easy OSes are to install.
>  It is
> > about how difficult it is to buy a machine with a decent OS
> pre-installed.
>
> Yes, thanks for reminding. But wouldn't it be more likely that more
> systems come with Ubuntu preinstalled, if it is more easy to install
> it? At least for the small PC shop around the corner it should be.
>
> Bigger shops for sure have everything automated. But how do they do
> when a new model appears? At least for the first of a new product line
> they must do it manually, isn't it?
>
> --
> Martin Wildam
>
> http://www.google.com/profiles/mwildam
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
> pre-installed.
> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>
> What should happen:
> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like
> Ubuntu.
> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and
> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>
>

-- 
Microsoft has a majority market share
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is a direct subscriber.

-- 
ubuntu-bugs mailing list
ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:14 PM, houstonbofh <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> On 10/20/2010 02:21 PM, Setve Gentilly wrote:
>
> > When I get a new system (which I get regularly) after it is assembled it
> > take me 1 to 1.5 hours to install Windows, the drivers and the necessary
> > software to get it to function at 100% efficiency.  I don't have the time
> to
> > fart around and mess with Operating systems and drivers that don't even
> run
> > on a double click from the mouse, nor do I have the time to learn a new
> > programing language (although I do know a few), no thank you.
>
> I have expertise in both Windows and Linux.  Windows takes longer.
> Mainly it is the massive amount of reboots between updates and drivers.
>  Also, the install is far to interactive, not set it and forget it.  As
> an aside, the only programming language I know is Perl, and I haven't
> really used in in years.
>
> > Let me give you an example, I installed Ubuntu 10.10RC on an AMD machine
> > with an Asus board and an XFX HD 5770.  When it came time to install the
> ATI
> > drivers from ATI, I ran the package and it said nothing to me so I
> rebooted
> > and guess what, it was not installed. So I then proceeded to install the
> > third party drivers that Ubuntu suggested.  Well, what a great performing
> > card It gave 50GFLOPS instead of the 1400GFLOPS Windows gives me.
> > I don't have time to fart around for days or weeks to get the machine
> > working 100%.
>
> You installed a beta, and it was not perfect?  Really?  And those Vista
> betas were so smooth...  And you had ATI driver problems?  That is
> surely an Ubuntu issue.
> http://www.google.com/search?q=ati+driver+problems  Or maybe not.  And
> why did you go the the ATI website first?  Oh, yes...  You picked up
> that habit from Windows.  In Ubuntu, you go to the repos first.  And
> yes, the ATI Linux drivers are worse than the Windows drivers for many
> ATI cards.  One reason I like nVidia. (On both platforms)
>
> > When Ubuntu is as easy to install as Windows, then I will have another
> look
> > at it.
>
> You want Ubuntu to be as easy for a beginner to install with no
> experience as Windows is for an expert with years of experience.  That
> is the bug...  Unreasonable expectations.  And the thought that
> "Windows" is "Computer" and if you know "Windows" you know "computers."
>  Not so helpfull with Mac, Linux, HP-UX, Aix, Solaris, AS400, VMS, or a
> number of accounting specific systems.  Now if you give the same test to
> your grandmother, I bet Linux is easier.
>
> And this is the reason I responded.  People keep looking at the wrong
> bug.  The bug is that we did not tell you this BEFORE you started.  Now
> it is too late...
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
> pre-installed.
> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>
> What should happen:
> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like
> Ubuntu.
> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and
> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
> 3. The 

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:07 AM, Tom <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> This bug report is not about how difficult or easy OSes are to install.  It
> is
> about how difficult it is to buy a machine with a decent OS pre-installed.
>
> @ Martin
>
> I think we are agreeing but have semantic differences.  Imo an install is
> not
> complete until the system is tweaked and made usable for the use the user
> requires.  A basic install of Windows is not ready to use imo.  A basic
> install
> of Ubuntu is also not fully ready (imo) but has stuff ready to use that
> Windows
> doesn't and usually takes less to get it ready.
>
> To get Windows to the same level as Ubuntu you have to install many
> programs
> such as Office (i would use OpenOffice in Windows, not MicroSquish Office,
> and
> Firefox not IE for safety and security).  'Obviously' for
> OpenOffice/LibreOffice
> i would do
>
> Tools - Options - Load/Save
> to set all the defaults to the unsafe ".doc" and ".xls" ones that people
> prefer
> in the Windows-world.
>
> Then both Windows & Ubuntu need multimedia players (Vlc for both, also
> MPlayer
> for Ubuntu and hopefully Zoom Player for Windows), Gimp (for both) and
> whichever
> other packages the user would appear to need from whatever they have been
> talking about, mostly Ubuntu already covers those but Windows doesn't.
>  Ubuntu
> makes a lot of that easy by following the Community Documentation Medibuntu
> page
> but there are countless blogs, magazines and stuff either in the fake-world
> or
> online that cover the multimedia issues.
>
> Both Windows and Ubuntu need drivers for any oddly awkward hardware.  For
> Ubuntu
> these are mostly online but it may take some hunting to find them.  For
> Windows
> you might need to find that crusty old Cd that came with the device.
>  Inevitably
> some stuff wont work with Windows because "it is too old and you should buy
> a
> new device and stop being such a cheapskate".  With Ubuntu some newer stuff
> wont
> work but might do fairly soon especially if you post a bug-report about it.
>  Ati
> & NVidia have communities doing a lot of work right now and updates happen
> quite
> frequently.  Even the companies themselves are making efforts to provide
> more
> support (for fear of losing customers now linux usage is reaching above
> 4%).
> Other companies will follow their lead.
>
> Both Windows and Ubuntu will need to be updated and this is one area that
> Ubuntu
> really scores highly because it does everything, all the codecs, libraries,
> drivers, programs, packages, everything all in one go & you can walk away
> and
> leave it to get on with it with no further interaction.  Windows will
> usually
> require several reboots and requires the update process to be repeated many
> times before it is 'completely' updated.  Also Windows tends to  make a
> fuss
> about stuff requiring user-input.  Also Windows doesn't update any of the
> drivers or programs, not even free ones such as Adobe flash-player or pdf
> reader.  So an ubuntu system is fully patched and ready whereas a Windows
> one
> seldom reaches that stage.
>
> Both systems often need tweaking to set which applications are preferred
> for
> certain tasks (right-click on a file-type and set what it opens with)
> although
> with Windows you seldom get a choice and just have to be careful about
> which
> programs you install last as each one grabs control.  With Ubuntu you can
> finesse it at almost any point.
>
> However, none of this is what this bug-report is about.  All of this
> depends on
> the skill (in the particular OS they are attempting to install) of the
> person
> doing the install and how easy they find it to access useful help if they
> run
> into problems.  Again, that is not what this bug-report is about.
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source packag

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 6:49 AM, Martin Wildam <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:04, Tom <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> > I find that after a decent install most people don't even notice that
> they are
> > using a different OS.  Firefox is there and the menus easy to navigate.
> > Documents open with a double-click.
>
> I don't fully agree - e.g. Movie player is not playing a lot of
> videos. Need to use VLC for those - so VLC must be installed and for
> different files open with must be changed to use VLC instead of movie
> player by default. I tend to instruct people to first double-click and
> when it does not work use right mouse button and open with VLC. This
> is easier than trying to find a sample for each possible format and
> change default open. Similar applies for sound formats.
>
> And there are IMHO some other first-to-dos, be it tools to install
> (like gsmartcontrol, Thunderbird, ...) and some options to change. -
> But I don't want to complain about this because I have plenty more
> first-to-dos under Win* and on Ubuntu I start the Synaptic, go once
> through the list, ticking everything I want and then save the list to
> an external file and never need to do it again manually.
>
>
> > As G stated it is the install process that is the most difficult part.
>
> No, really, the installation is straight-forward. As with 10.10 it
> either already starts preparing the harddrive while I do the last
> inputs, is awesome - as well as WLAN already available and downloading
> the updates already on the go. And with net access it already knows
> the country I am in (regarding time settings). So there is nothing
> more I wish to have.
>
>
> > We try to make that easy and many people have lists of what to do after a
> basic install
> > in blogs and websites or in magazines.
>
> One idea: You could grab the most used sets of pre-installations and
> pre-sets and offer that as additional option at installation, e.g.
> similar as Fedora does, asking the user for typical use "Home user,
> Developer, Designer/Photographer, ..." - that probably would make it
> easier for a lot of people and for Canonical it would be just running
> a few additional apt-get install lines and maybe some default
> configuration files. I personally already have some files containing
> those, so for me no problem as it.
>
> --
> Martin Wildam
>
> http://www.google.com/profiles/mwildam
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
> pre-installed.
> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>
> What should happen:
> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like
> Ubuntu.
> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and
> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>
>

-- 
Microsoft has a majority market share
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 5:04 AM, Tom <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> I find that after a decent install most people don't even notice that they
> are
> using a different OS.  Firefox is there and the menus easy to navigate.
> Documents open with a double-click.
>
> As G stated it is the install process that is the most difficult part.  We
> try
> to make that easy and many people have lists of what to do after a basic
> install
> in blogs and websites or in magazines.  Forums are quite accessible and
> documentation aimed at noobs is quite prolific but still all the difficult
> part
> of the migration process is right at the start of using linux.  This is the
> specific point of this bug#1 because a 'pre-installed' linux is very easy
> to
> use.
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
> pre-installed.
> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>
> What should happen:
> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like
> Ubuntu.
> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and
> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>
>

-- 
Microsoft has a majority market share
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is a direct subscriber.

-- 
ubuntu-bugs mailing list
ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 4:47 AM, Martin Wildam <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 20:37, Randall Ross (rrnwexec)
>  wrote:
> > Did you bother to check which systems are certified first?
> > http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification/
> >
> > Think of your experiences in the Windows world. You likely have used
> > hardware that is stickered "Windows Ready", "Works with Windows" etc.
> >
> > The Ubuntu world is no different, and Ubuntu does NOT work on
> > everything. Please reset expectations accordingly.
>
> Although Ubuntu runs on a lot of hardware that is not listed there and
> no certification has been done, people should simply prefer the
> hardware that is certified or at least known to work.
>
> Simply becauce: Manufacturer's first aim is to work with Windows
> because that is the majority of people and this simply is what gets
> preinstalled in the vast majority of cases when shipping the thingy.
>
> Some manufacturers have looked beond the the rim of the plate and see
> that the world around M$ is wide and large and take this into
> consideration, like Dell or Lenovo for example.
>
> If people buying stuff do not explicitely prefer the more compatible
> hardware manufacturers also will not change their habits.
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 20:59, Tom <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> > So 30mins to install Ubuntu against 1hr30 to install Windows.
> >
> > Did the Windows system then need upgrades or additional software?  After
> the
> > first round of updates and reboot  were all the drivers, codecs and new
> programs
> > all up-to-date and fully patched?
>
> Yesterday I tried to install an MS Office plugin from M$. Result: Half
> an hour of applying necessary updates including upgrading to IE8 (and
> I have no plain idea why IE8 needed in that case)... - and the machine
> had applied all updates before...
>
>
> > Installing a system you know well (Windows), with the standard
> preparation you
> > do before an install to that particular set of hardware does not really
> compare
> > against installing a system you have no experience with and have not
> prepared
> > for in advance.
>
> Yeah, people used Windows many, many years and then they expect to do
> the transition in a day. Although I think that Ubuntu can be learned
> quite quickly (just to think of the plenty of forums and documentation
> available - or the very helpful community), my experience is that a
> standard low experienced home user needs approx 2 weeks to get
> familiar enough to be productive - but this is an awesome short time!
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 21:14, houstonbofh <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> > I have expertise in both Windows and Linux.  Windows takes longer.
> > Mainly it is the massive amount of reboots between updates and drivers.
> >  Also, the install is far to interactive, not set it and forget it.
>
> If you look at the installation of Windows 2008 R2 Server for example,
> installation of Windows is really not very interactive - it neither
> asks for a host name! - It generates an automatic one that you can
> change later. So even less interaction than for an Ubuntu
> installation.
>
> That said, afterwards plenty of clicks needed to get only in the near
> of being productive - not to tell that Windows OS after installation
> is naked as a jaybird! Even the text editor that comes with it is ...
> - well the only word I have for it is "impertinence".
>
>
> > As
> > an aside, the only programming language I know is Perl, and I haven't
> > really used in in years.
>
> When I started with Linux all programming languages I knew were
> Windows-only. So really, there is no need to know a programming
> language for using Linux. That I felt strange using an OS I can't
> program is natural after having always been capable of programming the
> PCs I was working on before. - Well, I have fixed that bug in the
> meantime. ;-)
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 21:14, houstonbofh <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> > You want Ubuntu to be as easy for a beginner to install with no
> > experience as Windows is for an expert with years of experience.  That
> > is the bug...  Unreasonable expectations.  And the thought that
> > "Windows" is "Computer" and if you know "Windows" you know "computers."
> >  Not so helpfull with Mac, Linux, HP-UX, Aix, Solaris, AS400, VMS, or a
> > number of accounting specific systems.  Now if you give the same test to
> > your grandmother, I bet Linux is easier.
>
> Full ACK!
>
> But: I agree that anyway it must get better, because there are plenty
> of people who care a sh* about the OS - their focus is completely
> different and they don't want to 

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:32 PM, »John« <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> > If we (society) are "training" our students purely to be "users"
> (consumers) of software then we will see the exact effect that you
> describe (in the domain of OS'es and computing, at least). (Bug #1 has
> in effect created a whole generation of consumers who view computers as
> a way to get to entertainment).
>
> In other words "we get what we deserve/ask for". Maybe we should really
> change the status to "won't fix" after all, for obvious reasons; but I
> guess it's better to stay positive and go on with "in progress", waiting
> for a radical global change of mind (hopefully somewhere in the near
> future) or we're screwed anyway.
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
> pre-installed.
> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>
> What should happen:
> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like
> Ubuntu.
> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and
> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>
>

-- 
Microsoft has a majority market share
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is a direct subscriber.

-- 
ubuntu-bugs mailing list
ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:10 PM, Randall Ross (rrnwexec) <
rand...@executiv.es> wrote:

> The concept of a computer being a "bicycle for the mind" might be
> helpful here, and might be worth revisiting.
>
> If we (society) are "training" our students purely to be "users"
> (consumers) of software then we will see the exact effect that you
> describe (in the domain of OS'es and computing, at least). (Bug #1 has
> in effect created a whole generation of consumers who view computers as
> a way to get to entertainment).
>
> We should instead be aiming to teach people to be creators and
> contributors, so their information access tools remain robust and enable
> any one to get to any and all information they need to educate
> themselves.  Ubuntu is taking that challenge head-on. However, we're
> still not able to channel all the energy that is lost to distractions
> such as Facebook, YouTube, Farmville, WoW, and similar things that also
> tend to "dumb down" (or at least divert). That will require a lot more
> code...
>
> On 10-10-20 02:48 PM, »John« wrote:
> > One more thing:
> > I'm incredibly sorry to say so, but I forgot to mention that "that
> > reason" is probably more and more people being stupid and getting more
> > and more stupid as the time passes - that's a sad fact that probably
> > just about every teacher out there can confirm (I recently joined the
> > club and pretty much the whole class - almost all of them senior teacher
> > professionals - seems to be thinking the same); no offence to anyone
> > here intended.
> >
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
> pre-installed.
> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>
> What should happen:
> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like
> Ubuntu.
> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and
> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>
>

-- 
Microsoft has a majority market share
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is a direct subscriber.

-- 
ubuntu-bugs mailing list
ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:48 PM, »John« <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> > This is not a Linux bug, but for some reason, Linux gets the blame,
> and Windows and the hardware manufactures get a pass.
>
> One more thing:
> I'm incredibly sorry to say so, but I forgot to mention that "that
> reason" is probably more and more people being stupid and getting more
> and more stupid as the time passes - that's a sad fact that probably
> just about every teacher out there can confirm (I recently joined the
> club and pretty much the whole class - almost all of them senior teacher
> professionals - seems to be thinking the same); no offence to anyone
> here intended.
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
> pre-installed.
> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>
> What should happen:
> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like
> Ubuntu.
> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and
> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>
>

-- 
Microsoft has a majority market share
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is a direct subscriber.

-- 
ubuntu-bugs mailing list
ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:21 PM, »John« <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> > With bad drivers, you will get bit, whatever OS you run.
> > This is not a Linux bug, but for some reason, Linux gets the blame, and
> Windows and the hardware manufactures get a pass.
>
> My point exactly.
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
> pre-installed.
> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>
> What should happen:
> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like
> Ubuntu.
> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and
> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>
>

-- 
Microsoft has a majority market share
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is a direct subscriber.

-- 
ubuntu-bugs mailing list
ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 5:05 PM, houstonbofh <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> On 10/20/2010 04:41 PM, »John« wrote:
> > ... not to mention they probably won't even bother if the
> > particular operating system isn't used by what they believe to be enough
> > of their potential customers. I guess you can see why we have a problem
> > with that and every single operating system is gonna be plagued by the
> > exact same problem until it reaches critical mass.
>
> This happens with Windows as well.  Why write a new driver just because
> the new version of Windows doesn't work with it?  With bad drivers, you
> will get bit, whatever OS you run.  I have a lovely PaperPort scanner
> that I keep around as just such an object lesson.  It only has Windows
> 95 drivers unless you BUY a new one for more than the cost of a scanner.
>  This is not a Linux bug, but for some reason, Linux gets the blame,
> and Windows and the hardware manufactures get a pass.
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
> pre-installed.
> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>
> What should happen:
> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like
> Ubuntu.
> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and
> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>
>

-- 
Microsoft has a majority market share
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is a direct subscriber.

-- 
ubuntu-bugs mailing list
ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 4:41 PM, »John« <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> Hi guys.
> I don't mean to be rude; I just want the message to be perfectly clear
> because we've been through this shit for like million times already and
> I'm simply getting sick and tired of hearing the same stupid whining
> over and over again. Bad hardware support is always caused by stupid
> hardware manufacturers and not the operating system in question, because
> someone needs to write the damn drivers! If you leave that up to them,
> they pretty much always end up spitting out some half broken piece of
> binary crap, not to mention they probably won't even bother if the
> particular operating system isn't used by what they believe to be enough
> of their potential customers. I guess you can see why we have a problem
> with that and every single operating system is gonna be plagued by the
> exact same problem until it reaches critical mass. In fact, all they
> need to do in order for their stuff to be fully and reliably supported
> on free operating systems is to publicly release the programming
> documentation (because writing properly working drivers without it
> within reasonable time frame is impossible), but many of them are simply
> too stupid to understand that. Until that changes, we're simply screwed,
> because we're stuck with either crap that can (and will) stop working
> any time or with nothing at all and there's absolutely not a damn thing
> you can do about that by yet another pointless GNU/Linux (BSD, Solaris,
> whatever) rant! So, unless you have some constructive criticism or other
> valuable ideas, please go post your whining somewhere else!
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
> pre-installed.
> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>
> What should happen:
> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like
> Ubuntu.
> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and
> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>
>

-- 
Microsoft has a majority market share
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is a direct subscriber.

-- 
ubuntu-bugs mailing list
ubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugs

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Randall Ross (rrnwexec) <
rand...@executiv.es> wrote:

> Quite true.
>
> If you've ever watched a new user work with Ubuntu, you'll likely have
> noticed that they have a much easier time than "experienced" computer
> users. No bad habits to unlearn, and they tend to involve themselves
> less with "tinkering" on unsupported (and uncertified) hardware.
>
>
> > You want Ubuntu to be as easy for a beginner to install with no
> > experience as Windows is for an expert with years of experience.  That
> > is the bug...  Unreasonable expectations.  And the thought that
> > "Windows" is "Computer" and if you know "Windows" you know "computers."
> >   Not so helpfull with Mac, Linux, HP-UX, Aix, Solaris, AS400, VMS, or a
> > number of accounting specific systems.  Now if you give the same test to
> > your grandmother, I bet Linux is easier.
> >
> > And this is the reason I responded.  People keep looking at the wrong
> > bug.  The bug is that we did not tell you this BEFORE you started.  Now
> > it is too late...
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
> pre-installed.
> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>
> What should happen:
> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like
> Ubuntu.
> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and
> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>
>

-- 
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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Setve Gentilly]

You know Windows works on more systems than Ubuntu, did you know
that..

I am a senior technician for windows systems with many certifications, and
they warned me about your type

Maybe Windows is the best system...

I will wait another 2 or 3 years to see if Ubuntu is worthy of my
attention.

Gentilli.



On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 3:14 PM, houstonbofh <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> On 10/20/2010 02:21 PM, Setve Gentilly wrote:
>
> > When I get a new system (which I get regularly) after it is assembled it
> > take me 1 to 1.5 hours to install Windows, the drivers and the necessary
> > software to get it to function at 100% efficiency.  I don't have the time
> to
> > fart around and mess with Operating systems and drivers that don't even
> run
> > on a double click from the mouse, nor do I have the time to learn a new
> > programing language (although I do know a few), no thank you.
>
> I have expertise in both Windows and Linux.  Windows takes longer.
> Mainly it is the massive amount of reboots between updates and drivers.
>  Also, the install is far to interactive, not set it and forget it.  As
> an aside, the only programming language I know is Perl, and I haven't
> really used in in years.
>
> > Let me give you an example, I installed Ubuntu 10.10RC on an AMD machine
> > with an Asus board and an XFX HD 5770.  When it came time to install the
> ATI
> > drivers from ATI, I ran the package and it said nothing to me so I
> rebooted
> > and guess what, it was not installed. So I then proceeded to install the
> > third party drivers that Ubuntu suggested.  Well, what a great performing
> > card It gave 50GFLOPS instead of the 1400GFLOPS Windows gives me.
> > I don't have time to fart around for days or weeks to get the machine
> > working 100%.
>
> You installed a beta, and it was not perfect?  Really?  And those Vista
> betas were so smooth...  And you had ATI driver problems?  That is
> surely an Ubuntu issue.
> http://www.google.com/search?q=ati+driver+problems  Or maybe not.  And
> why did you go the the ATI website first?  Oh, yes...  You picked up
> that habit from Windows.  In Ubuntu, you go to the repos first.  And
> yes, the ATI Linux drivers are worse than the Windows drivers for many
> ATI cards.  One reason I like nVidia. (On both platforms)
>
> > When Ubuntu is as easy to install as Windows, then I will have another
> look
> > at it.
>
> You want Ubuntu to be as easy for a beginner to install with no
> experience as Windows is for an expert with years of experience.  That
> is the bug...  Unreasonable expectations.  And the thought that
> "Windows" is "Computer" and if you know "Windows" you know "computers."
>  Not so helpfull with Mac, Linux, HP-UX, Aix, Solaris, AS400, VMS, or a
> number of accounting specific systems.  Now if you give the same test to
> your grandmother, I bet Linux is easier.
>
> And this is the reason I responded.  People keep looking at the wrong
> bug.  The bug is that we did not tell you this BEFORE you started.  Now
> it is too late...
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
> pre-installed.
> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>
> What should happen:
> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like
> Ubuntu.
> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and
> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
> 3. The 

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Randall Ross (rrnwexec)]

@mzc
I agree.

@faldegast:
1) Why would we market a kernel?
2) Running Ubuntu on scrap/old is not putting our best foot forward, and
creates support issues.
3) For the server side, we have Ubuntu Server.
4) Ubuntu Software Centre is just that: a store for Ubuntu-compatible
software. The extension of USC to non-Ubuntu platforms would be
nightmarish in complexity.


On 10-10-22 10:37 AM, mzc wrote:
> @faldegast. You are suggesting an approach that led to mandriva 's
> downfall.
> On Oct 22, 2010 10:26 AM, "Faldegast" <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
>> What i suggest for Ubuntu is the following:
>>
>> 1. A Ubuntu/Linux/Elf software store. It should be designed so that it
>> can ship applications for many OS:es, not just Ubuntu.
>>
>> 2. A Ubuntu Pro commercial offering. Including boxed Ubuntu, a manual,
>> and support. Also some commercial stuff like DVD player.
>>
>> Ubuntu currently has Fluendo Windows Media and MP3 Playback Pack, Fluendo
> Complete Playback Pack and PowerDVD Linux in its online shop. These should
> either be provided trough a software store, or included in "Ubuntu Pro".
>> I would also see more commercial Linux applications there. For example i
> know there is a Ubuntu version of Majesty. I know for sure that i would buy
> that.
>> 3. Both of above need a reseller plan. OEMs that preinstall a software
>> store or Ubuntu Pro have to make money out of it. And Ubuntu pro should
>> not be cheap.
>>
>> A software store and a commercial Linux with a distribution network is
>> what we need. I am certain that this is exactly what we need. For
>> servers we have RHEL but for clients the only thing available is
>> Mandriva, but they effort to build a distribution network is to weak.
>> They focus on an online store, and I believe thats their weakness.
>> Operating Systems is OEM products and they are usually sold with
>> computers, so we must target the OEM builders.
>>
>> While i have talked a lot about technology on this issue, technology is
>> not a #1 bug issue. We have technology, what we need to fix bug #1 is
>> marketing.
>>
>> There is no reason why Linux should have less usage share then OS X.
>> Linux can run on much more hardware that OS X supports, and it have a
>> great community.
>>
>> On another front, i think the idea of recycling old computers with
>> Ubuntu and give them to those that cannot afford a brand new PC is
>> excellent. I have done this a lot with lubuntu on really old computers.
>> I also have a ThinLinc server that can be used to run applications that
>> old computers are to weak to run. Its not fast enough for youtube,
>> however they can play mpeg2. Perhaps an application like minitube can
>> use a proxy server for transcoding to mpeg2 before a clip reach the old
>> box?
>>
>>
>>> Martin,
>>>
>>> True. Again i agree with that and i think we are in agreement again. So
> the
>>> various points people have made are valid except where we talk about
> noobs
>>> installing.
>>>
>>>
>>> Surely a shop that installs to perhaps tens of machines has time to play
> around
>>> with even just 1 and has probably noticed all the quirkiness of
> installing
>>> Windows onto a wide range of very different machines and might realise
> that
>>> lack of knowledge might be the main barrier to a smoother install of
> Ubuntu (or
>>> other distro). Perhaps it is those people that we should target rather
> than
>>> normal users or people that do the odd one or two. Continuing to approach
> both
>>> is probably still best.
>>>
>>> Regards from
>>> Tom :)
>> --
>> Microsoft has a majority market share
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
>> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
>> of the bug.
>>
>> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
>> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
>> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
>> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
>> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
>> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
>> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
>> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
>> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
>> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
>> Status in Tv-Player: New
>> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
>> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
>> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
>> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
>> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
>> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
>> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
>> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>>
>> Bug description:
>> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
>> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>>
>> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
> limiting the ability of software developers to re

Re: RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[mzc]

@faldegast. You are suggesting an approach that led to mandriva 's
downfall.
On Oct 22, 2010 10:26 AM, "Faldegast" <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
>
> What i suggest for Ubuntu is the following:
>
> 1. A Ubuntu/Linux/Elf software store. It should be designed so that it
> can ship applications for many OS:es, not just Ubuntu.
>
> 2. A Ubuntu Pro commercial offering. Including boxed Ubuntu, a manual,
> and support. Also some commercial stuff like DVD player.
>
> Ubuntu currently has Fluendo Windows Media and MP3 Playback Pack, Fluendo
Complete Playback Pack and PowerDVD Linux in its online shop. These should
either be provided trough a software store, or included in "Ubuntu Pro".
> I would also see more commercial Linux applications there. For example i
know there is a Ubuntu version of Majesty. I know for sure that i would buy
that.
>
> 3. Both of above need a reseller plan. OEMs that preinstall a software
> store or Ubuntu Pro have to make money out of it. And Ubuntu pro should
> not be cheap.
>
> A software store and a commercial Linux with a distribution network is
> what we need. I am certain that this is exactly what we need. For
> servers we have RHEL but for clients the only thing available is
> Mandriva, but they effort to build a distribution network is to weak.
> They focus on an online store, and I believe thats their weakness.
> Operating Systems is OEM products and they are usually sold with
> computers, so we must target the OEM builders.
>
> While i have talked a lot about technology on this issue, technology is
> not a #1 bug issue. We have technology, what we need to fix bug #1 is
> marketing.
>
> There is no reason why Linux should have less usage share then OS X.
> Linux can run on much more hardware that OS X supports, and it have a
> great community.
>
> On another front, i think the idea of recycling old computers with
> Ubuntu and give them to those that cannot afford a brand new PC is
> excellent. I have done this a lot with lubuntu on really old computers.
> I also have a ThinLinc server that can be used to run applications that
> old computers are to weak to run. Its not fast enough for youtube,
> however they can play mpeg2. Perhaps an application like minitube can
> use a proxy server for transcoding to mpeg2 before a clip reach the old
> box?
>
>
>> Martin,
>>
>> True. Again i agree with that and i think we are in agreement again. So
the
>> various points people have made are valid except where we talk about
noobs
>> installing.
>>
>>
>> Surely a shop that installs to perhaps tens of machines has time to play
around
>> with even just 1 and has probably noticed all the quirkiness of
installing
>> Windows onto a wide range of very different machines and might realise
that
>> lack of knowledge might be the main barrier to a smoother install of
Ubuntu (or
>> other distro). Perhaps it is those people that we should target rather
than
>> normal users or people that do the odd one or two. Continuing to approach
both
>> is probably still best.
>>
>> Regards from
>> Tom :)
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Confirmed
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in GNOME Screensaver: Won't Fix
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The Metacity Window Manager: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
pre-installed.
> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>
> What should happen:
> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like
Ubuntu.
> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and
benefits would be apparent an

RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

What i suggest for Ubuntu is the following:

1. A Ubuntu/Linux/Elf software store. It should be designed so that it
can ship applications for many OS:es, not just Ubuntu.

2. A Ubuntu Pro commercial offering. Including boxed Ubuntu, a manual,
and support. Also some commercial stuff like DVD player.

Ubuntu currently has Fluendo Windows Media and MP3 Playback Pack, Fluendo 
Complete Playback Pack and PowerDVD Linux in its online shop. These should 
either be provided trough a software store, or included in "Ubuntu Pro".
I would also see more commercial Linux applications there. For example i know 
there is a Ubuntu version of Majesty. I know for sure that i would buy that.

3. Both of above need a reseller plan. OEMs that preinstall a software
store or Ubuntu Pro have to make money out of it. And Ubuntu pro should
not be cheap.

A software store and a commercial Linux with a distribution network is
what we need. I am certain that this is exactly what we need. For
servers we have RHEL but for clients the only thing available is
Mandriva, but they effort to build a distribution network is to weak.
They focus on an online store, and I believe thats their weakness.
Operating Systems is OEM products and they are usually sold with
computers, so we must target the OEM builders.

While i have talked a lot about technology on this issue, technology is
not a #1 bug issue. We have technology, what we need to fix bug #1 is
marketing.

There is no reason why Linux should have less usage share then OS X.
Linux can run on much more hardware that OS X supports, and it have a
great community.

On another front, i think the idea of recycling old computers with
Ubuntu and give them to those that cannot afford a brand new PC is
excellent. I have done this a lot with lubuntu on really old computers.
I also have a ThinLinc server that can be used to run applications that
old computers are to weak to run. Its not fast enough for youtube,
however they can play mpeg2. Perhaps an application like minitube can
use a proxy server for transcoding to mpeg2 before a clip reach the old
box?


> Martin,
> 
> True.  Again i agree with that and i think we are in agreement again.  So the 
> various points people have made are valid except where we talk about noobs 
> installing.  
> 
> 
> Surely a shop that installs to  perhaps tens of machines has time to play 
> around 
> with even just 1 and has probably noticed all the quirkiness of installing 
> Windows  onto a wide range of very different machines and might realise that 
> lack of knowledge might be the main barrier to a smoother install of Ubuntu 
> (or 
> other distro).  Perhaps it is those people that we should target rather than 
> normal users or people that do the odd one or two.  Continuing to approach 
> both 
> is probably still best.
> 
> Regards from
> Tom :)

-- 
Microsoft has a majority market share
https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
You received this bug notification because you are a member of Ubuntu
Bugs, which is a direct subscriber.

-- 
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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Martin,

True.  Again i agree with that and i think we are in agreement again.  So the 
various points people have made are valid except where we talk about noobs 
installing.  


Surely a shop that installs to  perhaps tens of machines has time to play 
around 
with even just 1 and has probably noticed all the quirkiness of installing 
Windows  onto a wide range of very different machines and might realise that 
lack of knowledge might be the main barrier to a smoother install of Ubuntu (or 
other distro).  Perhaps it is those people that we should target rather than 
normal users or people that do the odd one or two.  Continuing to approach both 
is probably still best.

Regards from
Tom :)

-- 
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 14:07, Tom <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> This bug report is not about how difficult or easy OSes are to install.  It is
> about how difficult it is to buy a machine with a decent OS pre-installed.

Yes, thanks for reminding. But wouldn't it be more likely that more
systems come with Ubuntu preinstalled, if it is more easy to install
it? At least for the small PC shop around the corner it should be.

Bigger shops for sure have everything automated. But how do they do
when a new model appears? At least for the first of a new product line
they must do it manually, isn't it?

-- 
Martin Wildam

http://www.google.com/profiles/mwildam

-- 
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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

This bug report is not about how difficult or easy OSes are to install.  It is 
about how difficult it is to buy a machine with a decent OS pre-installed.

@ Martin

I think we are agreeing but have semantic differences.  Imo an install is not 
complete until the system is tweaked and made usable for the use the user 
requires.  A basic install of Windows is not ready to use imo.  A basic install 
of Ubuntu is also not fully ready (imo) but has stuff ready to use that Windows 
doesn't and usually takes less to get it ready.

To get Windows to the same level as Ubuntu you have to install many programs 
such as Office (i would use OpenOffice in Windows, not MicroSquish Office, and 
Firefox not IE for safety and security).  'Obviously' for 
OpenOffice/LibreOffice 
i would do 

Tools - Options - Load/Save
to set all the defaults to the unsafe ".doc" and ".xls" ones that people prefer 
in the Windows-world.

Then both Windows & Ubuntu need multimedia players (Vlc for both, also MPlayer 
for Ubuntu and hopefully Zoom Player for Windows), Gimp (for both) and 
whichever 
other packages the user would appear to need from whatever they have been 
talking about, mostly Ubuntu already covers those but Windows doesn't.  Ubuntu 
makes a lot of that easy by following the Community Documentation Medibuntu 
page 
but there are countless blogs, magazines and stuff either in the fake-world or 
online that cover the multimedia issues.

Both Windows and Ubuntu need drivers for any oddly awkward hardware.  For 
Ubuntu 
these are mostly online but it may take some hunting to find them.  For Windows 
you might need to find that crusty old Cd that came with the device.  
Inevitably 
some stuff wont work with Windows because "it is too old and you should buy a 
new device and stop being such a cheapskate".  With Ubuntu some newer stuff 
wont 
work but might do fairly soon especially if you post a bug-report about it.  
Ati 
& NVidia have communities doing a lot of work right now and updates happen 
quite 
frequently.  Even the companies themselves are making efforts to provide more 
support (for fear of losing customers now linux usage is reaching above 4%).  
Other companies will follow their lead.

Both Windows and Ubuntu will need to be updated and this is one area that 
Ubuntu 
really scores highly because it does everything, all the codecs, libraries, 
drivers, programs, packages, everything all in one go & you can walk away and 
leave it to get on with it with no further interaction.  Windows will usually 
require several reboots and requires the update process to be repeated many 
times before it is 'completely' updated.  Also Windows tends to  make a fuss 
about stuff requiring user-input.  Also Windows doesn't update any of the 
drivers or programs, not even free ones such as Adobe flash-player or pdf 
reader.  So an ubuntu system is fully patched and ready whereas a Windows one 
seldom reaches that stage.

Both systems often need tweaking to set which applications are preferred for 
certain tasks (right-click on a file-type and set what it opens with) although 
with Windows you seldom get a choice and just have to be careful about which 
programs you install last as each one grabs control.  With Ubuntu you can 
finesse it at almost any point.

However, none of this is what this bug-report is about.  All of this depends on 
the skill (in the particular OS they are attempting to install) of the person 
doing the install and how easy they find it to access useful help if they run 
into problems.  Again, that is not what this bug-report is about.
Regards from
Tom :)

-- 
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https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:04, Tom <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> I find that after a decent install most people don't even notice that they are
> using a different OS.  Firefox is there and the menus easy to navigate.
> Documents open with a double-click.

I don't fully agree - e.g. Movie player is not playing a lot of
videos. Need to use VLC for those - so VLC must be installed and for
different files open with must be changed to use VLC instead of movie
player by default. I tend to instruct people to first double-click and
when it does not work use right mouse button and open with VLC. This
is easier than trying to find a sample for each possible format and
change default open. Similar applies for sound formats.

And there are IMHO some other first-to-dos, be it tools to install
(like gsmartcontrol, Thunderbird, ...) and some options to change. -
But I don't want to complain about this because I have plenty more
first-to-dos under Win* and on Ubuntu I start the Synaptic, go once
through the list, ticking everything I want and then save the list to
an external file and never need to do it again manually.


> As G stated it is the install process that is the most difficult part.

No, really, the installation is straight-forward. As with 10.10 it
either already starts preparing the harddrive while I do the last
inputs, is awesome - as well as WLAN already available and downloading
the updates already on the go. And with net access it already knows
the country I am in (regarding time settings). So there is nothing
more I wish to have.


> We try to make that easy and many people have lists of what to do after a 
> basic install
> in blogs and websites or in magazines.

One idea: You could grab the most used sets of pre-installations and
pre-sets and offer that as additional option at installation, e.g.
similar as Fedora does, asking the user for typical use "Home user,
Developer, Designer/Photographer, ..." - that probably would make it
easier for a lot of people and for Canonical it would be just running
a few additional apt-get install lines and maybe some default
configuration files. I personally already have some files containing
those, so for me no problem as it.

-- 
Martin Wildam

http://www.google.com/profiles/mwildam

-- 
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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

I find that after a decent install most people don't even notice that they are 
using a different OS.  Firefox is there and the menus easy to navigate.  
Documents open with a double-click.

As G stated it is the install process that is the most difficult part.  We try 
to make that easy and many people have lists of what to do after a basic 
install 
in blogs and websites or in magazines.  Forums are quite accessible and 
documentation aimed at noobs is quite prolific but still all the difficult part 
of the migration process is right at the start of using linux.  This is the 
specific point of this bug#1 because a 'pre-installed' linux is very easy to 
use.

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 20:37, Randall Ross (rrnwexec)
 wrote:
> Did you bother to check which systems are certified first?
> http://webapps.ubuntu.com/certification/
>
> Think of your experiences in the Windows world. You likely have used
> hardware that is stickered "Windows Ready", "Works with Windows" etc.
>
> The Ubuntu world is no different, and Ubuntu does NOT work on
> everything. Please reset expectations accordingly.

Although Ubuntu runs on a lot of hardware that is not listed there and
no certification has been done, people should simply prefer the
hardware that is certified or at least known to work.

Simply becauce: Manufacturer's first aim is to work with Windows
because that is the majority of people and this simply is what gets
preinstalled in the vast majority of cases when shipping the thingy.

Some manufacturers have looked beond the the rim of the plate and see
that the world around M$ is wide and large and take this into
consideration, like Dell or Lenovo for example.

If people buying stuff do not explicitely prefer the more compatible
hardware manufacturers also will not change their habits.


On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 20:59, Tom <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> So 30mins to install Ubuntu against 1hr30 to install Windows.
>
> Did the Windows system then need upgrades or additional software?  After the
> first round of updates and reboot  were all the drivers, codecs and new 
> programs
> all up-to-date and fully patched?

Yesterday I tried to install an MS Office plugin from M$. Result: Half
an hour of applying necessary updates including upgrading to IE8 (and
I have no plain idea why IE8 needed in that case)... - and the machine
had applied all updates before...


> Installing a system you know well (Windows), with the standard preparation you
> do before an install to that particular set of hardware does not really 
> compare
> against installing a system you have no experience with and have not prepared
> for in advance.

Yeah, people used Windows many, many years and then they expect to do
the transition in a day. Although I think that Ubuntu can be learned
quite quickly (just to think of the plenty of forums and documentation
available - or the very helpful community), my experience is that a
standard low experienced home user needs approx 2 weeks to get
familiar enough to be productive - but this is an awesome short time!


On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 21:14, houstonbofh <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> I have expertise in both Windows and Linux.  Windows takes longer.
> Mainly it is the massive amount of reboots between updates and drivers.
>  Also, the install is far to interactive, not set it and forget it.

If you look at the installation of Windows 2008 R2 Server for example,
installation of Windows is really not very interactive - it neither
asks for a host name! - It generates an automatic one that you can
change later. So even less interaction than for an Ubuntu
installation.

That said, afterwards plenty of clicks needed to get only in the near
of being productive - not to tell that Windows OS after installation
is naked as a jaybird! Even the text editor that comes with it is ...
- well the only word I have for it is "impertinence".


> As
> an aside, the only programming language I know is Perl, and I haven't
> really used in in years.

When I started with Linux all programming languages I knew were
Windows-only. So really, there is no need to know a programming
language for using Linux. That I felt strange using an OS I can't
program is natural after having always been capable of programming the
PCs I was working on before. - Well, I have fixed that bug in the
meantime. ;-)


On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 21:14, houstonbofh <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> You want Ubuntu to be as easy for a beginner to install with no
> experience as Windows is for an expert with years of experience.  That
> is the bug...  Unreasonable expectations.  And the thought that
> "Windows" is "Computer" and if you know "Windows" you know "computers."
>  Not so helpfull with Mac, Linux, HP-UX, Aix, Solaris, AS400, VMS, or a
> number of accounting specific systems.  Now if you give the same test to
> your grandmother, I bet Linux is easier.

Full ACK!

But: I agree that anyway it must get better, because there are plenty
of people who care a sh* about the OS - their focus is completely
different and they don't want to bother.

But, that said, those people must be illuminated that: Even if they
want to just pull coffee from the coffee machine or if they "just"
want to drive a car, some knowledge of the thing you are using is
needed to use it (efficiently). In general for every thing (be it
technical or non-technical) there are some basics (knowledge,
experience, training) needed to use something - and more knowledge,
experience and training is needed to use something really efficient -
or - to help yourself in case of a problem. - This applies for
computers as well as for cars, giving presentatio

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Randall Ross (rrnwexec)]

The concept of a computer being a "bicycle for the mind" might be
helpful here, and might be worth revisiting.

If we (society) are "training" our students purely to be "users"
(consumers) of software then we will see the exact effect that you
describe (in the domain of OS'es and computing, at least). (Bug #1 has
in effect created a whole generation of consumers who view computers as
a way to get to entertainment).

We should instead be aiming to teach people to be creators and
contributors, so their information access tools remain robust and enable
any one to get to any and all information they need to educate
themselves.  Ubuntu is taking that challenge head-on. However, we're
still not able to channel all the energy that is lost to distractions
such as Facebook, YouTube, Farmville, WoW, and similar things that also
tend to "dumb down" (or at least divert). That will require a lot more
code...

On 10-10-20 02:48 PM, »John« wrote:
> One more thing:
> I'm incredibly sorry to say so, but I forgot to mention that "that
> reason" is probably more and more people being stupid and getting more
> and more stupid as the time passes - that's a sad fact that probably
> just about every teacher out there can confirm (I recently joined the
> club and pretty much the whole class - almost all of them senior teacher
> professionals - seems to be thinking the same); no offence to anyone
> here intended.
>

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[»John«]

> This is not a Linux bug, but for some reason, Linux gets the blame,
and Windows and the hardware manufactures get a pass.

One more thing:
I'm incredibly sorry to say so, but I forgot to mention that "that
reason" is probably more and more people being stupid and getting more
and more stupid as the time passes - that's a sad fact that probably
just about every teacher out there can confirm (I recently joined the
club and pretty much the whole class - almost all of them senior teacher
professionals - seems to be thinking the same); no offence to anyone
here intended.

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Randall Ross (rrnwexec)]

Quite true.

If you've ever watched a new user work with Ubuntu, you'll likely have
noticed that they have a much easier time than "experienced" computer
users. No bad habits to unlearn, and they tend to involve themselves
less with "tinkering" on unsupported (and uncertified) hardware.


> You want Ubuntu to be as easy for a beginner to install with no 
> experience as Windows is for an expert with years of experience.  That 
> is the bug...  Unreasonable expectations.  And the thought that 
> "Windows" is "Computer" and if you know "Windows" you know "computers." 
>   Not so helpfull with Mac, Linux, HP-UX, Aix, Solaris, AS400, VMS, or a 
> number of accounting specific systems.  Now if you give the same test to 
> your grandmother, I bet Linux is easier.
>
> And this is the reason I responded.  People keep looking at the wrong 
> bug.  The bug is that we did not tell you this BEFORE you started.  Now 
> it is too late...

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Sat, Jul 24, 2010 at 10:50, lelamal <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> http://pollycoke.org/pollycokers/paolo/socialbox/6121
> Today I found this link in this nice Italian Website. It contains a link that
> sort of fits this exchange nicely. Follow it, and the links within the article
> at PC Pro.

Dell was in the news of making publicity for Ubuntu and from what I
have read (mixed with a little interpretation), I would say, that
Microsoft threatened them to increase Windows license prices for them.
That would make the Dells preloaded with Windows more expensive. So I
guess this is why they stopped.

However, I will let you know - I am going to buy a Dell within the
next month (and I have two Dell Notebooks + a server at a friend
bought within the last 1,5 years and none of them ever seen Windows.

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[lelamal]

http://pollycoke.org/pollycokers/paolo/socialbox/6121

Today I found this link in this nice Italian Website. It contains a link that 
sort of fits this exchange nicely. Follow it, and the links within the article 
at PC Pro.

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Randall Ross (rrnwexec)]

@Tom

We are in a hurry! Do we want our children or their children to have to
ship their money to the Monopoly forever?

I sure don't.

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Randall Ross (rrnwexec)]

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Lets not forget that although the information is bad and misleading it is at 
least getting the name out there into the mainstream from the Dell website.

A journey of a thousand miles is not completed by the first step and who says 
we 
are in a hurry anyway?
Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[haydoni]

What seems very strange about Dell's website is the (US/EU) inconsistency of
their message.

>From dell.co.ok/ubuntu. As you've discussed, it's very poor: Clicking on
"shop for ubuntu laptops" - doesn't link to any, the comparison webpage is
utter rubbish, and Ubuntu isn't even a selectable option for OS (a choice of
5 versions of Windows) when shopping on the dell.co.uk website...

>From dell.com/ubuntu, it's pretty good: 10 things to know about Ubuntu, the
link to buy Ubuntu laptops even works! I can select open-source OS in the
list of OSs. And you've probably seen the advert now:
http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/07/best-advert-for-ubuntu-you-probably.html

On 23 July 2010 14:15, »John« <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:

> > >
> http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/windows_or_ubuntu
> > > Choose Windows "If you are new to computers" - a bad joke. Especially
> when new to computers and not having to deal with old required Windows
> stuff, it is easier to use Ubuntu.
> > Yeah. It is exactly those users that should start with ubuntu, before
> they get used with Windows.
>
> Took the words right out of my mouth.
>
>
> > > That said, there are still people sending .doc and .xls files and the
> like around. This is a virus that has to be stopped also...
> > This is a bigger problem then Windows market share. Microsoft Office is
> one of those things that keeps corporations from switching. Personally I
> only toss PDF files around. We have to work harder to get people to stop
> using proprietary formats.
>
> Damn right. Did you know that despite of what most of us probably think,
> the M$ flagship product is actually their Office suite? That's one of
> the "killer apps" that usually keeps corporate Windown$ users from
> switching (the others being CAD and DTP as far as I remember).
> I can confirm this using the experience with my cousin - she was so
> stuck in her M$ Office ways that the FUD from having to learn something
> like OpenOffice alone was more than enough to keep her from even
> considering using Ubuntu. Stupid Windown$ was hammering her WLAN card
> for no reason like every month or so and she had to keep asking me or
> her brother to make it work over and over again, but she still wouldn't
> let us help her switch. The funny thing is that the other day my
> granddad (hardcore ICT beginner but at the same time a happy user of my
> ancient K5 desktop running Xubuntu) needed her help with some document
> he just wrote. She came over, got the job done without any major
> problems and pretty much got the hang of things in the process. In the
> end she told him "You know what? It's really easy to use… but don't tell
> John what I just said!". So afraid of my "I told you so…"
> So (bundling restrictions aside), offering a good drop-in replacement
> for M$ Office will really hammer them!
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Invalid
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
> restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
> limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
> globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
> pre-installed.
> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>
> What should happen:
> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like
> Ubuntu.
> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and
> benefits would be apparent and known by all.
> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe
>

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You r

RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

> > Dual-boots allow the person to change over to linux at their own pace so 
> > that
> > they resent the new system less.
> 
> It might be that people do need Windows later for particular tasks
> although they already prefer Linux. In any case, a VirtualBox running
> the Windows is quite always the better solution. It is better for
> exchanging data back and forth and offers to use both in parallel.
> 
> The only case where I would say choosing the dual-boot option is best
> is for a gamer because in the VirtualBox the games might not get
> enough resources (don't know - just a guess).
> 
> One advantage of the dual-boot is that you don't need to reinstall
> Windows on the virtual machine - but you could also try to backup the
> original installation with CloneZilla and restore it in the virtual
> machine (however I experienced cases where this did not work due to
> poor flexibility to hardware change).
I totally agree here. Virtualization is best and the exception is when you need 
direct access to hardware, such as when the experimental support for OpenGL and 
DirectX cant handle your application.  
 
> > Also their word-of-mouth stories will reduce other people's anxiety about 
> > the
> > big switch from Windows to Linux.  If people are given the impression that
> > slash&burn is the only route in then they might be wary about trying it,
> 
> I would say a very potential situation for switching to Linux is
> having XP on an old machine and now need (or want) to buy a new
> machine. You could keep the old machine (if it is still working) and
> put Linux on the new one. This is not very different from getting
> Windows 7 which is also not any familiar to those users.
Yes. Actually i finally switched on the desktop last year when my old XP 
computer died. I have been using Linux on servers since the 90's, but Windows 
on the desktop because of the apps that dont run in Linux.

> > especially as the slash&burn fiction is part of the FUD that is spread to
> > prevent Linux usage. Undermining FUD seems fairly crucial to getting people 
> > more
> > relaxed about trying Linux.
> 
> I don't really agree - for many users it is normal to slash & burn the
> Windows installation once a year after virus infection.
 This is mostly due to incorrect usage of Windows. However stuff like 
installing a service pack makes XP slower then slipstreaming them and 
reinstalling. Don't ask me why.
  
_
Håll skräpposten borta med nya Hotmail. Klicka här!
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RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

> Can we refrain from using the phrase "Linux usage", and from using the
> words "Linux" and Ubuntu interchangeably? Are people really expected to
> use a kernel directly?
> 
> My experience is that dropping the "L" word opens up our favourite
> operating system to a much wider audience. More thoughts here:
> http://randall.executiv.es/node/15

So how do we refer to Ubuntu, Fedora, Mandriva and CentOS in one word? I
do not use Linux and Ubuntu interchangeably, i use it as a short for
"Linux Distribution". Or possibly "GNU/Linux".


  
_
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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Most Windows users i have stumbled across have no idea about (re)installing an 
operating system, whether Windows or gnu&Linux or something else. There are 
complexities and choices they are very unlikely to be aware of but may be 
dismayed that "the right way" was guessed by telepathy.  Perhaps your client 
group is a lot more geeky than the average Windows user.

A desperately slow and flaky machine that constantly falls over and perhaps 
even 
gets infected seems to be the norm for Windows machines and often has slightly 
terrified owners that don't want any change because they will lose all their 
stuff. If your client group is a little more enlightened then congrats.

Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[mzc]

@Randall:  I agree that Ubuntu should be made distinct.  Users should always
remember that "linux" is just the backbone to make Ubuntu or any gnu
distributions to work with hardware.   It just like saying calling Apple
computers  as  running on "darwin" instead of running on macOS.

On Jul 7, 2010 9:06 AM, "Martin Wildam" <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 09:30, Tom <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
>> Dual-boots allow the person to change over to linux at their own pace so
that
>> they resent the new system less.
>
> It might be that people do need Windows later for particular tasks
> although they already prefer Linux. In any case, a VirtualBox running
> the Windows is quite always the better solution. It is better for
> exchanging data back and forth and offers to use both in parallel.
>
> The only case where I would say choosing the dual-boot option is best
> is for a gamer because in the VirtualBox the games might not get
> enough resources (don't know - just a guess).
>
> One advantage of the dual-boot is that you don't need to reinstall
> Windows on the virtual machine - but you could also try to backup the
> original installation with CloneZilla and restore it in the virtual
> machine (however I experienced cases where this did not work due to
> poor flexibility to hardware change).
>
>
>> Also their word-of-mouth stories will reduce other people's anxiety about
the
>> big switch from Windows to Linux.  If people are given the impression
that
>> slash&burn is the only route in then they might be wary about trying it,
>
> I would say a very potential situation for switching to Linux is
> having XP on an old machine and now need (or want) to buy a new
> machine. You could keep the old machine (if it is still working) and
> put Linux on the new one. This is not very different from getting
> Windows 7 which is also not any familiar to those users.
>
>
>> especially as the slash&burn fiction is part of the FUD that is spread to
>> prevent Linux usage. Undermining FUD seems fairly crucial to getting
people more
>> relaxed about trying Linux.
>
> I don't really agree - for many users it is normal to slash & burn the
> Windows installation once a year after virus infection.
>
> --
> Martin Wildam
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>
> Status in Club Distro: Invalid
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
> Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
> Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
> Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
> Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
> Status in openSUSE: In Progress
> Status in Tilix Linux: New
>
> Bug description:
> Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
> This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.
>
> Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry,
restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and
limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential,
globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
>
> Steps to repeat:
>
> 1. Visit a local PC store.
>
> What happens:
> 2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software
pre-installed.
> 3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.
>
> What should happen:
> 1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like
Ubuntu.
> 2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and
benefits would be apparent and known by all.
> 3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this bug, go to:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/clubdistro/+bug/1/+subscribe

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 09:30, Tom <1...@bugs.launchpad.net> wrote:
> Dual-boots allow the person to change over to linux at their own pace so that
> they resent the new system less.

It might be that people do need Windows later for particular tasks
although they already prefer Linux. In any case, a VirtualBox running
the Windows is quite always the better solution. It is better for
exchanging data back and forth and offers to use both in parallel.

The only case where I would say choosing the dual-boot option is best
is for a gamer because in the VirtualBox the games might not get
enough resources (don't know - just a guess).

One advantage of the dual-boot is that you don't need to reinstall
Windows on the virtual machine - but you could also try to backup the
original installation with CloneZilla and restore it in the virtual
machine (however I experienced cases where this did not work due to
poor flexibility to hardware change).


> Also their word-of-mouth stories will reduce other people's anxiety about the
> big switch from Windows to Linux.  If people are given the impression that
> slash&burn is the only route in then they might be wary about trying it,

I would say a very potential situation for switching to Linux is
having XP on an old machine and now need (or want) to buy a new
machine. You could keep the old machine (if it is still working) and
put Linux on the new one. This is not very different from getting
Windows 7 which is also not any familiar to those users.


> especially as the slash&burn fiction is part of the FUD that is spread to
> prevent Linux usage. Undermining FUD seems fairly crucial to getting people 
> more
> relaxed about trying Linux.

I don't really agree - for many users it is normal to slash & burn the
Windows installation once a year after virus infection.

-- 
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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Randall Ross (rrnwexec)]

Can we refrain from using the phrase "Linux usage", and from using the
words "Linux" and Ubuntu interchangeably? Are people really expected to
use a kernel directly?

My experience is that dropping the "L" word opens up our favourite
operating system to a much wider audience. More thoughts here:
http://randall.executiv.es/node/15

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Randall Ross (rrnwexec)]

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi

Dual-boots allow the person to change over to linux at their own pace so that 
they resent the new system less.  It makes it easier for them to return to 
Windows for odd tasks they have not yet learnt how to do in Linux.  Some games 
and things work better in Windows although some tweaking with Wine can 
sometimes 
get stuff working in Linux.  Also the average user is not going to find it easy 
to "get a clean factory image restored".

A dual-boot puts the end-user in control and hugely reduces their dependence on 
you.  


Also their word-of-mouth stories will reduce other people's anxiety about the 
big switch from Windows to Linux.  If people are given the impression that 
slash&burn is the only route in then they might be wary about trying it, 
especially as the slash&burn fiction is part of the FUD that is spread to 
prevent Linux usage. Undermining FUD seems fairly crucial to getting people 
more 
relaxed about trying Linux.

Regards from
Tom :) 





From: Martin Wildam 
To: tomdavie...@yahoo.co.uk
Sent: Tue, 6 July, 2010 18:36:18
Subject: Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 13:58, Tom  wrote:
> Please can we try to set-up Dual-boot's rather than slash & burn.

Why should I waste so much disk space?


> If people need to return machines it is difficult sometimes but dual-boot
> gets around the issues

If a machine is returned it should then get a clean factory image
restored, I would say.
Oh, I forgot that Windows and his unique machine IDs and that stuff
But honestly: If a vendor gets a machine back because the Linux is not
running smoothly, I don't have any compassion with the vendor, sorry.
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Status in Club Distro: Invalid
Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
Status in The Linux OS Project: In Progress
Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: In Progress
Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
Status in Tv-Player: New
Status in Ubuntu: In Progress
Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu: Invalid
Status in The Jaunty Jackalope: Invalid
Status in “ubuntu-express” source package in Jaunty: Invalid
Status in Baltix GNU/Linux: Invalid
Status in “linux” package in Debian: In Progress
Status in Fluxbuntu: The Lightweight, Productive, Agile OS: Confirmed
Status in openSUSE: In Progress
Status in Tilix Linux: New

Bug description:
Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace.
This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.

Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry, restricting 
access to IT to a small part of the world's population and limiting the ability 
of software developers to reach their full potential, globally. This bug is 
widely evident in the PC industry.

Steps to repeat:

1. Visit a local PC store.

What happens:
2. Observe that a majority of PCs for sale have non-free software pre-installed.
3. Observe very few PCs with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed.

What should happen:
1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like Ubuntu.
2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and 
benefits would be apparent and known by all.
3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.


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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 21:34, Faldegast  wrote:
> For the last few years my policy have been that i only support Linux,
> i dont answer any Windows questions even if i know them. I simply
> reply "I dont use Windows". As a result the amount of time i have to spend
> supporting friends and family have decreased dramatically.
> Most of them switched to Fedora or Ubuntu. I probably dont have to tell you
> how much easier it is support these operating systems.

Similar experience for me. First less amount of supporting - but now a
queue is building because people got the knowledge that I am doing
Linux (support) and they come to me with interest to switch. That
said, I do have a few issues that cause me a lot of work in Ubuntu
either...
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RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 22:08:17 +
> From: jns@gmail.com
> To: faldeg...@hotmail.com
> Subject: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share
> 
> Hi there.
> 
> 
> > I dont see how you get from portable binary drivers to binary blobs.
> 
> If you factor in my understanding of the word "blob" (which for me
> equals "binary (only) drivers", not "free drivers in their pre-compiled
> form"), then you just answered yourself.

I still dont see how that becomes an issue in this case. I am not
talking about binary only drivers. However even with binary only drivers
it would be far better if they worked with more then one operating
system. Personally i never use binary only drivers. I maintain many
machines using repositories for upgrades, so using something that is not
shipped by the distribution is not an option. Stuff like Adobe Flash is
ok, if it fails it breaks nothing else. If the ATI drivers fail the
screen goes black...

> > With my suggestion you would be able to for example use the GPL
> drivers from Linux on FreeBSD or Solaris without recompiling them. If we
> also would be able to agree on standard for packages and repositories
> you would also be able to just install the drivers from a common
> repository.
> 
> And that's what I agreed would be really cool about this universal
> driver interface (among other things).

It is the main thing that i think will make the selection of OS:es about 
something else then hardware compatibility.
 
> Anyway, I've been thinking about this a little more and here's the
> result:
> Got a flash drive, external hard drive, memory card reader, PostScript
> printer or a decent webcam embedded to your laptop (just a few examples
> from the top of my head)? They all work like a charm right out of the
> box (and they probably did long before you first decided to try some
> random free OS), right? That's because all these devices adhere to open
> standards defining how particular sort of hardware has to behave from
> the software perspective - both input and output is well defined. They
> must understand certain commands and be able to at least explain their
> output to the driver if it's mandatory format isn't already defined
> within the standard itself. That way every device in the same hardware
> class becomes just a different hardware implementation of the same
> concept with SIMPLE GENERIC DRIVERS (one driver to rule them all) and
> YOU GET A FLAWLESS OUT OF THE BOX SUPPORT FOR YOUR DEVICE. I think that
> what we really need is to put more pressure on hardware manufacturers to
> make them move in that direction which combined with your idea would
> blast all the hardware support M$ likes to brag about so much into
> oblivion.
For printers then we have the standard CUPS, for which drivers work in a 
platform-independent way. This is userspace drivers which printer drivers has 
traditionally been in *nix. When the printers use PS and can stick with the 
generic CUPS PS driver it is extra beautiful.
Flash drives and external hard drives are specified in the USB specification. 
This kind of generic interfaces is how everything should work. However even if 
the USB drive can be used with a generic driver, the USB port itself is not 
generic. There is only a few vendors of USB IP designs but still we need more 
then one USB driver.
I do not really agree that this is flawless. In many cases the binary blobs 
have moved to the hardware device, where we do not have any ability to patch it 
should it contain bugs. PostScript printers is a good example. Some printers 
have firmware that are quite buggy making them really hard to use. Had their 
software been thinner and the main work done in the main system we would have 
an easier job patching it. Sometimes these problems are adressed with firmware 
updates, that potentially can render the device useless.

But there are still ways to fix this with generic drivers, and that is
to create standards for how simple devices can be made. Here the ATA and
SATA standard are a good example. It is based on many subset of
commands. For each subsets all commands are mandatory, but suppliers can
choose what subsets to implement. Apply this for printers and we cover
even the cheap printers that does not have the processing power to run
postscript.

Putting pressure on hardware manufacturers is a good idea. There should
be an OSS compliance list where we could find companies that support
open drivers. And that is compliance, not compatibility. I dont care
much for hardware suppliers that does not contribute, even if there
often are good OSS drivers i feel more comfortable buying something with
"Linux" printed on the box...

As nerds we have a responsibility here. Its to us people turn when they have 
computer problems. For the last few years my policy have been that i only 
support Linux, i dont answer any Windows questions even if i know them. I 
simply reply "I dont use Windows". As a result the amount of time i have to 
spend suppor

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 13:58, Tom  wrote:
> Please can we try to set-up Dual-boot's rather than slash & burn.

Why should I waste so much disk space?


> If people need to return machines it is difficult sometimes but dual-boot
> gets around the issues

If a machine is returned it should then get a clean factory image
restored, I would say.
Oh, I forgot that Windows and his unique machine IDs and that stuff
But honestly: If a vendor gets a machine back because the Linux is not
running smoothly, I don't have any compassion with the vendor, sorry.
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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Please can we try to set-up Dual-boot's rather than slash & burn. If
people need to return machines it is difficult sometimes but dual-boot
gets around the issues

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 18:39, »John«  wrote:
> I agree that having a standardised driver framework would probably not
> be a bad thing, but there's another catch - DRIVERS FOR FREE OPERATING
> SYSTEMS WOULD STILL NEED TO BE FREE!

Yes, indeed.


>> The optimal solution would be if compiled kernel modules could be loaded by 
>> any kernel that implements the standard, making them as portable as elf 
>> executables.
> Absolutely no. There's a bunch of damn good reasons why the majority of
> the free software developers strongly oppose blobs

Although I can also the advantage of such a "binary kernel plugin" for
the hardware vendors (no need for giving out the source code of their
drivers which might be part of the huge effort they did when creating
the product), I prefer the law of freedom because of the possible
threats. If the code is open source, it can be investigated and
checked - at least by those who care most about the OS sources.


> The most optimal solution would be if hardware manufacturers finally realised 
> how to properly cooperate with free software community and either started 
> writing BSD/GPL/MIT/whatever code themselves and submitting it for inclusion 
> in the next release of the component they wish to support or at least 
> providing complete NDA-free documentation and paying some of that component's 
> developers to write that code for them (because documentation availability 
> alone unfortunately doesn't guarantee someone's really gonna bother).

Yes, they should.

As far as I noticed, Microsoft did not bother in most cases of the
hardware drivers. Manufacturers of hardware always needed to do that
on their own. For Linux there is a whole community that would like to
help building the driver together with the manufacturer but:
Supporting Linux anyway needs to deal with an additional OS even if
they get helped. For many this is just a matter of cost and so they
don't care about Linux.

What everybody can do: Just don't buy hardware that is not Linux
compatible - even if you are not planning yet to run Linux on it. It
might happen sooner as you think.

Example: I had 2 cases where people were buying new laptops with
Windows 7 on it and apart from being overwhelmed with the changes in 7
(they used XP before) they missed their very old MS Office 97
Professional (they still used that because they never needed more. But
the MSO 97 does not run smoothly any more (and BTW already does a lot
of wrong stuff on installation by mixing up folders). They didn't
consider buying a new MS Office license in their budget. Finally I
wiped their machines (another 2 Windows machines in the Microsoft
statistic that are ghosts) and put Ubuntu on it. However, I struggled
a little with the shitty Hardware - because they did not care about it
(assuming everything is fine as Windows 7 runs preinstalled - even if
on my net the Windows 7 - maybe only on that hardware - wasn't either
able to connect to my WPA2 only WLAN). So they planned to use Windows
- for about 2 weeks or so. They should have considered hardware
compatibility...
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RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

> I'm sorry, but you fail to see the bigger picture.
> 
> 
> > One thing that is needed is open standard. Writing an operating system 
> > should not be about writing drivers for hundreds of devices. Standards 
> > should exists for drivers. Like OSKit or I/O Kit. Hince there should not 
> > have to be Linux drivers, FreeBSD drivers or Windows drivers, just Standard 
> > Drivers.
> 
> I agree that having a standardised driver framework would probably not
> be a bad thing, but there's another catch - DRIVERS FOR FREE OPERATING
> SYSTEMS WOULD STILL NEED TO BE FREE!

That's a whole other issue, but yes.

> > The optimal solution would be if compiled kernel modules could be loaded by 
> > any kernel that implements the standard, making them as portable as elf 
> > executables.
> 
> Absolutely no. There's a bunch of damn good reasons why the majority of
> the free software developers strongly oppose blobs (see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_blob and
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_hardware_and_FOSS#Problems_with_binary_drivers)
>  - for example even if you don't care about freedom (which is, by the way, 
> what gives you the ability to either fix the problematic module yourself or 
> get someone competent to fix it) at all, using blobs means all the security 
> and robustness of a vanilla kernel goes instantly out of the window (just try 
> fglrx), which means you can simply stick with Windowns and literally save 
> yourself all the trouble. Blobs don't belong in free systems, period. Keep in 
> mind that if you're not having any problems with them doesn't mean you never 
> will and no one else does and that blob having a bug tracker doesn't mean 
> someone actually cares about you. The most optimal solution would be if 
> hardware manufacturers finally realised how to properly cooperate with free 
> software community and either started writing BSD/GPL/MIT/whatever code 
> themselves and submitting it for inclusion in the next release of the 
> component they wish to support or at least providing complete NDA-free 
> documentation and paying some of that component's developers to write that 
> code for them (because documentation availability alone unfortunately doesn't 
> guarantee someone's really gonna bother).
> 
> Read these articles to get a better idea:
> 
>   * http://airlied.livejournal.com/73115.html
>   * http://airlied.livejournal.com/73337.html
I dont see how you get from portable binary drivers to binary blobs. With some 
hacks binary blobs can be made portable without binary portability, the fglrx 
drivers is proof of that. Of course its only portable to platforms their 
limited framework support, but still its being done. But that's still a whole 
different problem.

With my suggestion you would be able to for example use the GPL drivers
from Linux on FreeBSD or Solaris without recompiling them. If we also
would be able to agree on standard for packages and repositories you
would also be able to just install the drivers from a common repository.
Currently i have machines running forks of the same OSS drivers on Linux
and FreeBSD. Sometimes forks can be healthy but not in this case, the
only reason for the forks is kernel compatibility.


  
_
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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

For Linux Native Development question I started a topic at the forums
- for everybody who is interested to follow that:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1482882

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 14:49, Faldegast  wrote:
> There are many good developers for Linux and its true that they don't always 
> need a nice RAD IDE
> environment. However my point is that without new amateur developers the pool 
> of good developers will > not grow.

Agree - you convinced me. Gaining developers for Linux is an important point.
More developers means more and better quality software. And the
appropriate tools help a lot.

But I find this point not more important than the others - like
marketing and so on.
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RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

> Before this degrades to a developer litigation - regarding the development:
> 1. I think there are really enough options for developing under Linux.

I think the problem is that there are to many options.

> 2. I don't see Visual Studio being sooo good. I used Visual Studio for
> more than 10 years and I felt way better after I switched to NetBeans
> and Java development.

NetBeans is very good for Java developmen, and Java have most of the
things i am talking about. The problem is native Linux development.
While NetBeans are really good for making Java apps, there are no equal
tool to make C/C++ apps. Lazarus is nice Delphi clone for Pascal
programming, but it lacks a good database library. Java has its JDBC
which is excellent.

> 3. It would be good if even every full idiot could use the
> libraries/APIs and the IDE. That would include a lot of crap being
> developed by a lot of people who do not really know about development,
> but for a better developer it would be either easy and the learning
> curve less steep which is important also for the new young developers
> entering the computer world.

Also do not forget that good developers usually was "idiots" when they
started. Many good developers started out by making crappy apps in
Visual Basic. Without VB they may not have started coding in the first
place.

> 4. A developer who has many years of experience with Windows and none
> with Linux surely has more difficulties developing for Linux - but
> more likely because of the lack of knowledge about the underlying OS.
> I don't think that the development/developers do hinder from current
> point of view to do the switch to Linux/Ubuntu - and the developers on
> the Linux side are very good IMHO.

There are many good developers for Linux and its true that they don't always 
need a nice RAD IDE environment. However my point is that without new amateur 
developers the pool of good developers will not grow.
  
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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

Before this degrades to a developer litigation - regarding the development:
1. I think there are really enough options for developing under Linux.
2. I don't see Visual Studio being sooo good. I used Visual Studio for
more than 10 years and I felt way better after I switched to NetBeans
and Java development.
3. It would be good if even every full idiot could use the
libraries/APIs and the IDE. That would include a lot of crap being
developed by a lot of people who do not really know about development,
but for a better developer it would be either easy and the learning
curve less steep which is important also for the new young developers
entering the computer world.
4. A developer who has many years of experience with Windows and none
with Linux surely has more difficulties developing for Linux - but
more likely because of the lack of knowledge about the underlying OS.
I don't think that the development/developers do hinder from current
point of view to do the switch to Linux/Ubuntu - and the developers on
the Linux side are very good IMHO.


Regarding the main issue (Bug #1):
a) Developers matter - no doubt - but developing for Linux is possible
right now and there are good tools. But by focusing on Linux
development, don't forget that for the next years platform independent
development is more important during the transition phase.
b) Maybe getting the percentage of Ubuntu/Linux desktops out there in
real use up to 50 % is a goal that is easier achieved than getting the
vendors to sell machines with Linux preinstalled. I do have currently
two brand new laptops with Windows 7 preinstalled (by the vendor). One
of them is already an Ubuntu machine, second following. There are so
many flavors and installing Linux nowadays is not that difficult that
not anybody can do it on his own. So why bother what OS was
preinstalled - even if it would have been a Linux distribution,
wouldn't I anyway re-install it for new - if it would be just to have
it partitioned the way I prefer it? - Of course, if it is cheaper
without OS, I buy my hardware without OS (well - I did - others first
don't think of the Ubuntu alternative).
c) Marketing could be improved, but it is definitely not everything.
Word of mouth is slower than marketing, but much a more stable
success! - And guess what: The most issues I have with new
installations of Ubuntu is because of hardware with non-open source
proprietary drivers. Not to blame Canonical or Linux community for
this, the shame is on the Vendors or the hardware pieces! And this is
a part of the community: To spread the word of what is good and
working hardware. Whenever someone asks me what computer to buy, I
always recommend a hardware that has very good chances to work
smoothly with Ubuntu - even if the person is not going to install
Ubuntu on it. I always say them: "Just for the case you will not be
satisfied in a year or so with your Windows 7 any more - you should
have the option to install Linux".
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RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

> > > So how do i use libmysql to connect to my postres database again? None of 
> > > those are database libraries. They are database-specific client 
> > > libraries. The only C database lib i know that is actively developed i 
> > > libzdb (http://www.tildeslash.com/libzdb/documentation.html).
> > 
> > You don't. As you've said, libmysql is a client library for MySQL server
> > and libpq is it's PostgreSQL equivalent. I guess you're talking about
> > some wrapper library which serves as another abstraction layer built on
> > top of various database libraries, but I believe using this kind of
> > stuff is a very bad idea, because it only introduces more bugs and it's
> > definitely less efficient than using selected database directly, but if
> > you really need this then there's libdbi, libyada, UNIXODBC and others
> > so this shouldn't be a problem.
 
I forgot to comment on this in my previous reply. Using an abstraction layer 
does not decrease efficiency, as they are very thin. Abstraction layers that is 
does impose a performance problem does not live long, unless they add A LOT of 
functionality. libdbi has been unmaintained for quite a while, but was the 
closest thing to MSDAC that we had with wrappers for PHP and many other 
languages. I was a bit unclear here. When i said we need a native database 
library i did not mean one limited to native C/C++ apps. I meant one that is 
written in such a language but established as a standard to other languages.

While such an abstraction layer may introduce bugs they may also
neutralize bugs. For example they can work around problems in the
specific client libraries, and they can also have their own
implementation of common functionality that is shared between databases.
This means code deduplication and therefore decreased chance of bugs.

The most important feature of an abstraction layer is that changing
database is a lot easier and you usually only have to change some
incompatible SQL code. Use an SQL builder and that problem is gone to.
When creating an application that supports many database engines this
means a lot less bugs. And usually applications need to support more
then one database so that makes the "more bugs" argument void for major
applications. Actually dbmail changed to libzdb for this specific
reason.

In Windows client libraries is usually implemented as MSDAC or ODBC
components. This kind of standardization also decreases the probability
of bug. Here is also one of the main reasons to have a OO extention to 
libraries (like COM). Creating bindings for a OO library in PHP, Python, Pearl, 
Java etc usually means writing a lot of code in their respective languages. In 
windows all these languages just use MSDAC trough OLE, there is no native 
support for MSDAC in them, it just work as there are a standard for how to call 
ANY such component. This also removes a lot of duplicate code and loads of 
potential bugs.

  
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RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

> Good morning, sir.
> 
> 
> > What? Can you be more specific in how you come to this ramblings out of 
> > what i wrote? How would having a standard rather then (at least) two 
> > incompatible solutions create such a mess?
> 
> It wouldn't, but all sorts of idiots abusing it would. I guess we can
> all agree that good open standards are good thing for everyone except
> bastards using proprietary crap to create vendor lock-ins so that they
> could keep their stranglehold on ICT industry. I just don't like the
> whole embedding idea very much because "when you create something that
> even an idiot can use, only idiots will use it". That's how I got to the
> point where I started rambling about undesirable effects of these
> technologies.
Stil, these technologies are currently around in Linux. All i suggest is that 
we standardize it. It should actually be a part of my original suggestion to 
merge Gnome and KDE, as this require them to use each others components. Of 
course there is also the issue of remote objects. There are replacements for 
DCOM in Linux, however there are no standard here either. For this i think i 
prefer the binary webservice model, it is standardised and fast. However it 
still is only available in a few languages. There is a good Java 
implementation, but we also need a good C implementation.

I don't care if idiots use development tools and use them incorrectly.
If its not quality software its going to fade away, if it even gets used
in the first place. Also i don't care if there are a few proprietary for
reporting, diagrams as such. Good luck selling components that does
stuff already available as free components. The only reasons components
for stuff like TCP/IP is commercially available in Windows is because
developers of free software never took on that platform, after all why
bother when writing good components for OSS platforms is more important.

Would it really be so bad if Gecko, OpenOffice and VLC was available as
custom controls that could easily be added to an application, in a
standardized way? Like Trident, MS Office and Media Player can be added
in a VS application?

> > So how do i use libmysql to connect to my postres database again? None of 
> > those are database libraries. They are database-specific client libraries. 
> > The only C database lib i know that is actively developed i libzdb 
> > (http://www.tildeslash.com/libzdb/documentation.html).
> 
> You don't. As you've said, libmysql is a client library for MySQL server
> and libpq is it's PostgreSQL equivalent. I guess you're talking about
> some wrapper library which serves as another abstraction layer built on
> top of various database libraries, but I believe using this kind of
> stuff is a very bad idea, because it only introduces more bugs and it's
> definitely less efficient than using selected database directly, but if
> you really need this then there's libdbi, libyada, UNIXODBC and others
> so this shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> 
> > In what way is it different? Most things i suggest are already in the 
> > programming model. The OLE/ActiveX-component type of component model for OO 
> > programming does exist. It exists in the form of beans, kpart and bonobo. 
> > The only difference with creating a standard is that kde objects would be 
> > usable in gnome and gnome objects in kde. 
> 
> Again - cooperating to create a solid common open standard is good
> because it removes a good deal of otherwise duplicated efforts (which is
> very common across free software landscape). It's just that for example
> Bonobo has been deprecated since GNOME 2.4 so it's not just me, but even
> those brilliant guys programming the whole desktop environment thing
> don't think it's such a good idea, you know…

Bonobo is deprecated and partially replaced by DCOP. However it is still being 
used for some graphical components. There are discussions on how to expand on 
DCOP or other technologies to remove Bonobo completely. Its mainly its CORBA 
dependency that is being questioned, not its high-level function.
 
> As far as IDEs go, I've personally tried at least Eclipse and NetBeans
> and they're definitely on the right track. Anyway - although I agree
> that the lack of native applications for various purposes is one of the
> main reasons why GNU/Linux has a significant disadvantage to Winblow$ in
> terms of it's adoption by end users, I don't think this is the right
> place to discuss software development topics and as far as attracting
> more so called "software developers" who don't give a rat's ass about
> free software, I think we're better off without them.

Both Eclipse and NetBeans has its bright sides. NetBeans has some good
RAD GUI editing tools and Eclipse has a very good UML tool. If they was
merged they would be more then a match for VC C#. However C/C++ is still
an issue.

I do not agree that we would be better off without developers that makes
commercial software. I think we need the whole spectra of deve

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Randall Ross (rrnwexec)]

The key to solving this bug lies in the title of the bug.

Ubuntu needs marketing. Market it! The rest will follow ;)

Cheers,
Randall.


On 10-05-06 05:25 PM, Faldegast wrote:
>   
>>> In general i think that we really need task forces in plural.
>>>   
>> Agreed, but some we already have some (like kernel hackers, X.org guys,
>> people who build desktop environments, ...).
>> 
> I know that a few project have very organized task forces. However
> neither of those you mention shows much of that.
>
>   
>>> There are a lot of overlapping projects. One example is that KDE and Gnome 
>>> should merge, at least when it comes to key technologies.
>>>   
>> That would certainly help to reduce the desperate shortage of manpower.
>> 
>
>   
>>> 1. We need a standardized method for embedding objects. Like Java Beans and 
>>> OLE/ActiveX in Windows. I mean how do you view a office document in a VS 
>>> application, or create a PDF report? You find an ActiveX that can do it. 
>>> KDE has KParts and Gnome has something similar, but we really need a 
>>> standard for this. Or in other words we need a standard for Custom 
>>> Controls. In OLE/ActiveX an object can be inproc (dynamically or statically 
>>> linked) or out of proc (external server process that starts on demand). 
>>> Also the app is totally oblivious to w 
>>>
>>> 2. We need a visual editor that can create new Custom Controls, or design 
>>> containers like forms/windows.
>>>
>>> The Lazarus FreePascal IDE is an interesting project.
>>>   
>> So instead of learning how to properly use existing libraries and then
>> writing nice and clean code yourself you prefer to have some kind of
>> gizmo spit out some crap for you and you actually call that programming?
>> Thank god that most people writing free software don't take the same
>> approach, because I'm convinced that's just a way of making things
>> rapidly deteriorate. Don't get me wrong - I know these are very powerful
>> tools in the hands of a true professional, but they're also helping to
>> make things suck so much more when some lazy and incompetent fuck is
>> just abusing them to roll his piece of crap ASAP so that he could start
>> making easy money out of it and doesn't even have a clue of how to use
>> them properly. Unfortunately I've seen way too much crap that was
>> "programmed" exactly this way to prove my point.
>> 
> What? Can you be more specific in how you come to this ramblings out of
> what i wrote? How would having a standard rather then (at least) two
> incompatible solutions create such a mess?
>
>   
>>> Another thing that we need is a good native database library. We have
>>>   
>> JDBC and ADO.NET. Perhaps one of them could be ported to C/C++? We also
>> have PHP Data Objects that is quite nice and probably implemented in C,
>> perhaps the C code could be used to make a "C Data Objects"?
>>
>> There are quite a few - libmysql, libpq, libsqlite... many of them with
>> bindings to whatever language you like. Just pick the best fit for your
>> desired application.
>> 
> So how do i use libmysql to connect to my postres database again? None of 
> those are database libraries. They are database-specific client libraries. 
> The only C database lib i know that is actively developed i libzdb 
> (http://www.tildeslash.com/libzdb/documentation.html).
>
>   
>> I think the bottom line is that the programming model is completely
>> different and those who just want to make their job easy and cobble
>> something up without actually knowing anything about coding are gonna
>> have a very hard time getting used to it.
>> 
> In what way is it different? Most things i suggest are already in the 
> programming model. The OLE/ActiveX-component type of component model for OO 
> programming does exist. It exists in the form of beans, kpart and bonobo. The 
> only difference with creating a standard is that kde objects would be usable 
> in gnome and gnome objects in kde. 
> 
> _
> Hotmail i mobilen på 5 sekunder!
> http://new.windowslivemobile.msn.com/SE-SE/windows-live-hotmail/default.aspx
>
>

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[draoi99]

Please use the Ubuntu forums for general chat about Ubuntu. This is 
supposed to be a bug report.

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[houstonbofh]

Faldegast wrote:
> Why don't do it the RHEL/CentOS way with LTS releases where user application 
> lake browsers etc gets updated but system stuff only get bug-fixes.
> To be conservative with kernel updates is good but why be that conservative 
> with Firefox and OpenOffice? Im not saying we should throw the edgiest 
> version in to the LTS, first let it prove itself in the edgy version of 
> ubuntu.
> So a middle way between the current LTS scheme and the current edgy version 
> could bridge the gap that users feel exist between them.

You can do that.  You can upgrade whatever you want.  You can have an 
LTS with bleeding edge Firefox and Open Office.  Just not supported by 
Ubuntu.

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RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

Why don't do it the RHEL/CentOS way with LTS releases where user application 
lake browsers etc gets updated but system stuff only get bug-fixes.
To be conservative with kernel updates is good but why be that conservative 
with Firefox and OpenOffice? Im not saying we should throw the edgiest version 
in to the LTS, first let it prove itself in the edgy version of ubuntu.
So a middle way between the current LTS scheme and the current edgy version 
could bridge the gap that users feel exist between them.

> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:49:24 +
> From: jns@gmail.com
> To: faldeg...@hotmail.com
> Subject: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share
> 
> > STOP releasing a new version every six months!!!
> 
> These are there for a reason - they ship with updates of the key system
> components such as kernel, X server and desktop environment and I think
> they're there for those who can't use older releases because of some
> problem with these (such as incorrectly functioning hardware). Canonical
> doesn't risk updating this stuff in already released versions of Ubuntu
> because there's a good chance it might cause more harm than good and
> since having to wait 2 years for a version of Ubuntu which works for you
> is probably not an option for many potential customers, here goes the 6
> month refresh period.
> 
> 
> > Since 2001, windoze has released (for user desktops) only XP, Vista
> and now 7. As a result XP (for all its faults) is now quite stable.
> 
> Well, as far as both my personal and professional experience goes, the
> key word in the last sentence is "QUITE".
> 
> 
> > Stop adding new bells and whistles and concentrate on fixing ALL the
> issues that are outstanding.
> 
> That would certainly be nice, but most of these actually get fixed
> upstream and the fixes don't make it in point (that means maintenance)
> releases, which is yet another reason for the way things are.
> 
> 
> > How about making the next release a 'service pack' for lucid. Don't 
> > introduce any core changes or waste effort doing a new look-and-feel?
> 
> I can see your point, but I don't see how creating new look-and-feel for
> every release is responsible for not fixing some outstanding software
> issues because doing artwork requires a whole lot different skill set
> than programming so I really doubt these tasks are performed by the same
> people.
> 
> 
> > If I am to make the switch to ubuntu on my main machines (and I'd like to 
> > for many reasons) I need something that is more stable, is still having the 
> > 'low priority' bugs fixed and is providing regular updates for the main 
> > applications (like firefox and open office) for the next four or five years 
> > and that, when it is replaced, will be replaced by something that has had a 
> > much longer testing and bug fixing phase...
> > 
> > Perhaps I've missed a trick and should have gone back to the last LTS 
> > (8.04.4)? If I had would the application updates have finally made it 
> > through (e.g. firefox 3.5)?
> > 
> > The LTS issue is far from clear. The latest LTS is not the one offered on 
> > the main page and it is not (obviously) pointed out the one that is offered 
> > will only be supported until next year.
> 
> LTS releases are supported for 3 years on the desktop (5 on servers) and
> there's a new LTS every 2 years, so If you want a stable system, I
> recommend you to keep upgrading from one LTS to another at the end of
> it's life. That way you're gonna start with something that has been used
> and debugged for a year (year and a half including the development
> process) so at least all the issues you're likely to run into as a
> regular should already be sorted out.
> 
> 
> > Having done a quick search, I still don't know if old versions get
> application updates
> 
> No, they don't. They only keep pulling in point releases from the branch
> that shipped with the release to minimize the risk of introducing any
> major issues so you're gonna get Firefox 3.5.?, not 3.?.? unless you
> install it from some unofficial source like GetDeb or someone's Personal
> Package Archive. Downloading upstream binaries should work too, but I
> refuse to mess with that because once you get used to repositories and
> automatic package management it just seems too much work (and the risk
> of introducing clutter into otherwise perfectly clean system).
> 
> -- 
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
> 
> Status in Club Distro: Invalid
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Status in JAK LINUX: Invalid
> Status in The OpenOffice.org Suite: Invalid
> Status in Tabuntu: Invalid
> Status in A simple player to online TV streaming: Invalid
> Status in Tv-Player: New
> Status in Ubuntu: Incomplete
> Status in “ubuntu-express” package in Ubuntu:

RE: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Faldegast]

The OSS community should create projects like that. It could be funded by 
providing certification of PHP developers etc...

> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 14:07:12 +
> From: joelbryan.juli...@gmail.com
> To: faldeg...@hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share
> 
> I totally agree with you... 3 years ago I was assigned with a project
> to create a Linux distribution to be used as a migration effort by the
> university I was studying to move to open source, promote open source
> and to teach open source languages like PHP, Python and Ruby to
> students. The plan as it is written on my contract is for the
> distribution to be deployed to over 200+ campuses across the country,
> also in the contract says they will be funding TV advertisement to
> promote open source to students so that the university will be a
> household name for a school that teaches open source.
> 
> When Microsoft found out about the open source initiative this major
> school is planning, they soon set a meeting with the head officials
> and instantly the open source deal was off... The working product is
> already enjoying the deployment, but everything has changed.
> 
> I don't know what happened in the meeting, but after just a week, new
> computers have been coming with Microsoft OS, Office, and Visual
> Studio pre-installed... All the old computers have been installed with
> Linux is reformatted to Xp. I was real close on getting a shot of
> changing the course of local tech eduction, but then Microsoft ruined
> everything... All the hardwork and countless hours I spend on the
> Linux project gone down the drain, thanks to Microsoft.
> 
> 
> On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 7:11 PM, »John«  wrote:
> >> Building something out of spiteful resentment at seeing the success of
> > another is bad.
> >
> > I've heard this shit before and everyone who believes this is completely
> > missing the point. As a matter of fact, M$ was successful only because
> > they were lucky and what I hate about them is not their success, but the
> > way they keep themselves on top - I'm pretty sure everyone with as much
> > as a single trace of sense of fair play will come up with the exact same
> > conclusion if he does some digging and reads about all the bribery and
> > extortion this fscked up corporation never hesitates to use if it's in
> > their best interest. For example, let's take a closer look at their
> > licensing policy - if you wanna get your hands on a bunch of cheap OEM
> > kits, you gotta either bundle Winblow$ with the whole model line or
> > you're simply outta luck. Of course it's also hardware vendors' fault
> > that they agree to this in order to save some quick buck, but that
> > doesn't change the fact that it's M$ who does this on purpose to
> > artificially slow down the adoption of all competing software,
> > restricting end consumers' choice in the process (which is something
> > they don't give a fsck about). In the end the whole thing results in
> > "chicken and egg problem" with both hardware and software support for
> > every system other than Winblow$. Another clear example was the process
> > of "standardizing" OOXML - isn't it funny that a lot of committee
> > members who eventually reconsidered come from developing countries and
> > changed their minds after receiving generous donations from M$ or
> > something like that? Isn't it funny that M$ is always there to "help"
> > everyone who's seriously considering to move away from Winblow$ like
> > India or China? Am I the only one seeing a causal link here? Hardly. How
> > about bribing Russia not to go ahead with oficially daclaring them as a
> > monopoly? Does that ring any bells? The point is, that all this
> > completely brings down fundamental principles of competitive market, so
> > M$ can feel free to do whatever they want without suffering any
> > consequences. So go ahead and protect the corrupt tyrant from the wrath
> > they so richly deserve!
> >
> > --
> > Microsoft has a majority market share
> > https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> > You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> > of the bug.
> >
> 
> -- 
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
> 
> Status in Club Distro: Invalid
> Status in Computer Science Ubuntu: Invalid
> Status in EasyPeasy Overview: Invalid
> Status in Ichthux - Linux for Christians: Invalid
> Statu

Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Joel Bryan Juliano]

I totally agree with you... 3 years ago I was assigned with a project
to create a Linux distribution to be used as a migration effort by the
university I was studying to move to open source, promote open source
and to teach open source languages like PHP, Python and Ruby to
students. The plan as it is written on my contract is for the
distribution to be deployed to over 200+ campuses across the country,
also in the contract says they will be funding TV advertisement to
promote open source to students so that the university will be a
household name for a school that teaches open source.

When Microsoft found out about the open source initiative this major
school is planning, they soon set a meeting with the head officials
and instantly the open source deal was off... The working product is
already enjoying the deployment, but everything has changed.

I don't know what happened in the meeting, but after just a week, new
computers have been coming with Microsoft OS, Office, and Visual
Studio pre-installed... All the old computers have been installed with
Linux is reformatted to Xp. I was real close on getting a shot of
changing the course of local tech eduction, but then Microsoft ruined
everything... All the hardwork and countless hours I spend on the
Linux project gone down the drain, thanks to Microsoft.


On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 7:11 PM, »John«  wrote:
>> Building something out of spiteful resentment at seeing the success of
> another is bad.
>
> I've heard this shit before and everyone who believes this is completely
> missing the point. As a matter of fact, M$ was successful only because
> they were lucky and what I hate about them is not their success, but the
> way they keep themselves on top - I'm pretty sure everyone with as much
> as a single trace of sense of fair play will come up with the exact same
> conclusion if he does some digging and reads about all the bribery and
> extortion this fscked up corporation never hesitates to use if it's in
> their best interest. For example, let's take a closer look at their
> licensing policy - if you wanna get your hands on a bunch of cheap OEM
> kits, you gotta either bundle Winblow$ with the whole model line or
> you're simply outta luck. Of course it's also hardware vendors' fault
> that they agree to this in order to save some quick buck, but that
> doesn't change the fact that it's M$ who does this on purpose to
> artificially slow down the adoption of all competing software,
> restricting end consumers' choice in the process (which is something
> they don't give a fsck about). In the end the whole thing results in
> "chicken and egg problem" with both hardware and software support for
> every system other than Winblow$. Another clear example was the process
> of "standardizing" OOXML - isn't it funny that a lot of committee
> members who eventually reconsidered come from developing countries and
> changed their minds after receiving generous donations from M$ or
> something like that? Isn't it funny that M$ is always there to "help"
> everyone who's seriously considering to move away from Winblow$ like
> India or China? Am I the only one seeing a causal link here? Hardly. How
> about bribing Russia not to go ahead with oficially daclaring them as a
> monopoly? Does that ring any bells? The point is, that all this
> completely brings down fundamental principles of competitive market, so
> M$ can feel free to do whatever they want without suffering any
> consequences. So go ahead and protect the corrupt tyrant from the wrath
> they so richly deserve!
>
> --
> Microsoft has a majority market share
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1
> You received this bug notification because you are a direct subscriber
> of the bug.
>

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Ghandi said "An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind"

MicroSquish often gets taken to court for things like anti-competitive
trading practices. Even where it doesn't lose it is usually pretty
clearly "sailing close to the wind" and there are hints of it engaging
in dubious practices. Mostly MicroSquish just loses cases.

I read somewhere that MicroSquish have been taken to court & lost more
cases than certain organised crime syndicates.

That doesn't mean we have to engage in dubious practices ourselves &
reading through this entire thread i think there's only 1 suggestion for
behaving badly and that was fairly clearly a joke to make a point.

As teh excellent even tho slightly dated link
http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
states, we don't need market share. 

Getting a larger, fairer share would be nice & would be of some benefit
but it's not something we NEED. MicroSquish does need it and is acting
as though they are backed into a corner just because they are not 100%
dominant on desktops & can't break into server markets effectively.

So, i think a lot of us are feeling pity towards MicroSquish people and
trying to give them good escape routes. There are a lot of good &
talented people still locked into the Windows mind-set. Try reading "The
Emporer's new Clothes". We can help hand-hold people & gently lead them
into linux-land.

Regards to all for helping make this possible!
Regards from
Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Tom]

Hi :)

If the store has a website then perhaps you could list it here. I am
sure a few people would be interested in supporting it even if it's only
by a few page hits

BitTorrent is excellent and the default package in Ubuntu is pretty
good. I have seen others that give more detail about multiple
download/seeding. Just download the ".torrent" & drag&drop it onto an
open "Transmission" (or whichever) and let it do its thing. I thought it
was only polite to let it seed out to other people at least 3 times but
i tend to focus on new releases or cult status items such as Wolvix

Regards all from Tom :)

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[draoi99]

John,
What store is this and where is it? Sounds fantastic that they are 
showing consumers the Third and Option.


On 15/04/10 12:58, »John« wrote:
> Sorry for another post, but I completely forgot about the good news I've
> got (you better brace yourself because it's quite big and it's probably
> gonna make your whole day): the biggest and most popular computer store
> in the whole district is now running Ubuntu with all the Firefox and
> Compiz Fusion goodness on the machines where customers can browse their
> e-shop and print invoices, so everyone who wishes to speed things up by
> avoiding waiting in line for the dealers to do the same thing for him
> can now see Ubuntu in action. I only wished they started showcasing some
> DELL notebooks running Ubuntu, because these "self-service terminals"
> are more like single purpose computer kiosks dedicated for the
> aforementioned tasks rather than full blown free desktop systems.
>
>

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[Martin Wildam]

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 13:22, »John«  wrote:
> generally speaking, most people
> aren't very cooperative if it feels like you're trying to force
> something upon them

Indeed.
BTW: In some psychology related talk I heard a good while ago: You can
only pick up people frome where they are. - As long as someone is
perfectly happy with Windows (or is just not aware of his unnecessary
suffering) you are somewhat lost.
And: If I talked somebody into using Linux and then a single problem
arises (even if possibly easily fixed) it's my fault (at least from
the othr's point of view).

Let's face the facts: There are some things that can't be achieved
with the same efficiency yet on the Linux desktop. But on the other
hand a lot of things can be achieved better and more efficient on
Linux. If one is suffering from the problems on Windows he/she will
accept a few flaws in Linux much easier - and fact is that there are
some - nothing is perfect.

And finally: I learned that there are people you can never understand.
There are people buying a complete new machine after system crashed
and they can't find their Windows-CD any more and others getting a new
machine because the old one got too slow (thinking it is the hardware
that got slower as getting older - just like an old man can't run like
a younger any more) - although maybe a defrag and deleting some
temp-files/history would have been sufficient (as Windows doesn't
delete most of them automatically). Yes, true stories.
-- 
Martin Wildam

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Re: [Bug 1] Microsoft has a majority market share

[towsonu2003]

Manoj Nair wrote:
> Lets face it, There are two major reasons for why microsoft dominates
> the desktop PC market.

Should we be adding one more reason for this bug's existance? Namely,
Linux companies (Novell) willing to do business (that specifically
promotes the patent fud) with Microsoft?

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