Re: Devuan
On Mon, 01 Dec 2014 17:28:38 + ubuntu-devel-discuss-requ...@lists.ubuntu.com wrote: > There > is no requirement in Debian to use systemd as the init system. I may be out of date as I have lost interest in Debian but believe the concerning difference of devuan is that Debian has made it clear that there is no *requirement* of Debian to support init freedom. If the project IS successful then the reason (lack of upstream support) for Ubuntu to switch is null and void and my guess would be that the work done toward systemd since and the need to support upstart for >4 years should perhaps logically atleast bring about a re-consideration. Here's hoping for functional yet simple and user empowering systems. Some see that as polkit and systemd but I absolutely do not. Quite... no, Almost interesting really. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > El 02/12/14 a las 08:12, Tom H escibió: >> >> Why would Ubuntu give its users a choice of init now when it hasn't in the >> past? > > Why use Unity when we always use Gnome? > Why use LibreOffice when we always use OpenOffice? > Why use Mir when we always use Xorg and all the rest will use Wayland? > Again, I have no opinion about it, but something has not been done so far is > not argument that can not be done in the future As someone else has pointed out earlier in this thread, because having a choice of inits generates a lot of development and QA work. That's most probably why there are few distributions that offer such a choice. You're also not complaining about a lack of kernel choice and yet, AFAIK, only Debian and Gentoo offer a non-Linux kernel. You also don't have a choice of libc in any distribution except, again AFAIK, in Gentoo - there's, for example, a musl libc variant. So why this focus on init choice? What would we gain? What I'm looking for in an init is that it boots a system and starts services, as well as allow me to customize these two functions and troubleshoot them. So I would've been happy had Ubuntu chosen to stick with upstart (or even adopt launchd!) and I'm happy that it's chosen to move to systemd. Unless you're working on developing an init or on the startup of a particular service, you don't spend your time rebooting a system or starting/stopping/restarting/reloading a daemon. It's not like choosing to use Unity over Gnome, Chrome over Firefox, postfix over exim, or vi over emacs; if all's well, you don't interact, as a sysadmin or a user, with init. Furthermore, is there anything that sysvinit or upstart can do that systemd can't? Not that I know of. The entire "debate" is overly and unnecessarily emotional! You've chosen to fork Debian because you dislike systemd. Why not? We're all free to do just about anything. But joining this mailing list in order to proselytize for your fork without even having a functional iso to point to and then criticizing Ubuntu for choosing not to have an init choice is rude. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On 12/02/2014 04:24 AM, Martin Pitt wrote: > Stephen P. Villano [2014-12-02 5:11 -0500]: >> Personally, I prefer SElinux to polkit > > You know that these two have pretty much nothing in common, right? > Perhaps you meant "SELinux over AppArmor"? > > Indeed that's another example where Debian offers a choice but Ubuntu > doesn't -- we examine the alternatives, pick one, and support nothing > else. (cf. combinatorial explosion and efficient maintenance and > support). > Well, this is somewhat over stated for SELinux. AppArmor is the Canonical-supported MAC on Ubuntu, but SELinux is community supported in Ubuntu. The kernel has support and we have syncs for the tools from Debian. The policy needs work, but everything is there for people to use SELinux if they want to. -- Jamie Strandboge http://www.ubuntu.com/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On 02.12.2014 11:11, Stephen P. Villano wrote: > Personally, I prefer SElinux to polkit, but such isn't part of the Dont they play in entirely different areas ? I just started to care about polkit, when began doing weird things and causing network-manager to break (more precise: the gnome frontend suddenly wasn't authorized anymore). So I digged a bit deeper, wondering why the usual group memberships didn't work anymore (had to rewrite several polkit configs to make it work again). At that point it was clear to me that it's a pretty useless invention, just caused by the fact that some folks, for dubious reasons, prefer doing everything via RPC on an broadcast channel (dbus) and then have the problem of selective access control - things which old-fashnioned Unix guys like me always did via direct links and filesystem permissions. One of my side projects now is getting rid of polkit/dbus at all, replace it by a clean plan9-alike approach, of course using factotum for authentication. > I used to run SuSE until Novell screwed it up. They've been screwing up even before Novell. 4.4.1 was the best release they ever had - after that it just went worse and worse. All the good people had been running away (I just happen to know some of them personally, and know some of their reasons) - the novell merge was more a logical consequence of that path :p cu -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consulting +49-151-27565287 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
smtp blacklisting [WAS: Re: Devuan]
Some time ago, I observed even major ISPs being blacklisted in some spamfilter appliance network (just forgot its name ;-o), where I'm *pretty* sure that they're not spamming (I know these guys personally, and they're quite professional, compared to other companies of this size) - and there was no way of finding out why they have been blacklisted. Oh, did you say "marketing server" ? Well, if you're sending much newsletters etc, that could be the reason - some operators are a bit too overcautious and block anybody who's traffic exceeds some (pretty low) threshold - these also usually hit hi traffic maillists like LKML. cu -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consulting +49-151-27565287 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On 02.12.2014 11:24, Martin Pitt wrote: Hi folks, > Indeed that's another example where Debian offers a choice but Ubuntu > doesn't -- we examine the alternatives, pick one, and support nothing > else. (cf. combinatorial explosion and efficient maintenance and > support). by the way: could anybody please enlighten me why you folks are rolling an own distro at all ? I'd guess it has something to do with LTS ... right ? But wouldn't it be more efficient to just pick stable Debian releases and do the LTS there ? Am I missing some vital aspect ? > (Technical problems, not "I don't like it" :-) ). Well, the "I dont like it" aspect shouldn't be underestimated. I regularily observed migration projects failing, not for technical reasons, but users simply not liking the new systems (sometimes even pretty trivial things like menus looking different). This also relates to usability, which is _very_ subjective. cu -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consulting +49-151-27565287 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
Heya, On 2 December 2014 at 11:57, Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > El 02/12/14 a las 08:12, Tom H escibió: >> >> Why would Ubuntu give its users a choice of init now when it hasn't in the >> past? >> >> -- > > Why use Unity when we always use Gnome? > Why use LibreOffice when we always use OpenOffice? > Why use Mir when we always use Xorg and all the rest will use Wayland? > Again, I have no opinion about it, but something has not been done so far is > not argument that can not be done in the future > You missed the point of the question. Each flavour released by Ubuntu Project serves a concrete purpose and has one good default only. That is the one thing that is core to the Ubuntu Project and has been the case always. Each ubuntu flavour only ships one DE, one productivity suite, and one graphical stack. Some of this things and choices are different for each flavour. However most flavours use the same kernel config. All ubuntu flavours use the same glibc and toolchain. As those are things inherited from Ubuntu Core which is common across all. And at the moment the cores init system is upstart. There is plans and work to migrate to systemd. Once that is done, and all flavours are validated / ported as well, only one init will remain. This is exactly the same way how Core has transitioned to new baseline in the past in the Ubuntu project. And for each of those things Ubuntu project selects the best option for it, and doesn't ship multiples (e.g. we never supported eglibc & glibc at the same time, we did change the default from one project to another over the past years as the conditions changed). -- Regards, Dimitri. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On 2 December 2014 at 10:11, Stephen P. Villano wrote: > > On 12/2/14 2:59 AM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: >> On 02.12.2014 08:27, Martin Pitt wrote: >>> Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult [2014-12-02 7:55 +0100]: >>>> By the way: is it then be mandatory ? >>> Yes, it will be. As Scott and others have already pointed out, Ubuntu >>> never offered a choice of init systems, and doesn't plan on doing so. >> Okay, thanks for the clear statement. >> >> So we don't have to bother w/ Ubuntu anymore at all (besides migrating >> away), we can concentrate on Devuan. (eg. getting rid of polkit etc). >> The only blocker right now is Zimbra, which is currently not packaged >> for Debian yet - but as we'll move to OpenZimbra anyways once it's >> stable, we won't have any need for Ubuntu anymore. >> >> >> cu >> -- > Such is the nature of life in the world, especially in the world of > software and operating systems. > Personally, I prefer SElinux to polkit, but such isn't part of the SElinux and SMACK are enabled in Ubuntu Kernels, and core packages are compiled with SElinux features enabled thus one can use SElinux policies on ubuntu base. Ditto with smack. Thus in certain ways ubuntu is more flexible and accommodating. Especially when it comes to cruitial hardware support & technologies. The rest of email is has just as bogus claims. Regards, Dimitri. > baseline of Debian and hence, not part of Ubuntu. I just had to take > other measures to ensure security. > Ubuntu follows Debian rather faithfully in the baseline OS. That is the > policy, it leaves a lot less to clean up after and gives a clear > understanding of the "lineage" and sourceline of the OS itself. Ubuntu > branches off in several areas, but they're well defined areas and well > documented by the Ubuntu team. > Personally, I use RedHat for certain uses in the enterprise network I > operate in. I also use Fedora and CentOS in that same environment, > depending upon the client environmental preferences. > At home, my OS of choice is a bit more eclectic. I used to run SuSE > until Novell screwed it up. Since, I've got a rather varied environment > in both my lab environment at home and my production environment at > home. I run a full enterprise network at home. > For my home entertainment system, I use Mythbuntu, as it's clean running > "out of the box" and harden my security with a clear comprehension of > Ubuntu and Debian practices. > Other systems are hardened according to US DoD standards or rather > loose, depending upon which VLAN they "live" on and their purpose and > sensitivity to the function of my home enterprise. > As for my qualifications, I worked my way up from cable monkey to > desktop support, help desk, LAN/WAN operations and senior level > AD/SA/LAN/WAN operations before I moved into Information Assurance. In > that latter field, I've not had a network I was responsible for be > compromised and that counts being in the middle of the 2008 cyberattack > against the US DoD in my area of responsibility. Every other network was > compromised, mine was not. I don't take chances in security. > > So, stay with the distro or go your own way, it's a somewhat free world. > Free as in beer is not free, but personal choices are free in most areas. > > Good night/morning, this discussion has so engaged me and emotionally > aroused me, I'll now go to bed. > Oh wait, it didn't. > I outgrew "If you're not going to play *my* way, I'm taking my marbles > and go home" when I left kindergarten, which was long enough ago that I > do clearly recall watching John F. Kennedy shot live on television. > But, I am serious about going to bed. Both out of lack of adrenaline and > it's past bedtime by a few minutes. > > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Regards, Dimitri. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
El 02/12/14 a las 08:12, Tom H escibió: Why would Ubuntu give its users a choice of init now when it hasn't in the past? -- Why use Unity when we always use Gnome? Why use LibreOffice when we always use OpenOffice? Why use Mir when we always use Xorg and all the rest will use Wayland? Again, I have no opinion about it, but something has not been done so far is not argument that can not be done in the future -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 1:55 AM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: > On 01.12.2014 19:15, Tom H wrote: >> >> Especially after deciding a few months ago to switch to systemd! > > By the way: is it then be mandatory ? Why would Ubuntu give its users a choice of init now when it hasn't in the past? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On 12/2/14 5:24 AM, Martin Pitt wrote: > Stephen P. Villano [2014-12-02 5:11 -0500]: >> Personally, I prefer SElinux to polkit > You know that these two have pretty much nothing in common, right? > Perhaps you meant "SELinux over AppArmor"? > > Indeed that's another example where Debian offers a choice but Ubuntu > doesn't -- we examine the alternatives, pick one, and support nothing > else. (cf. combinatorial explosion and efficient maintenance and > support). > > So indeed, if for some reason you can't use the choice that Ubuntu > made, then going directly to Debian is probably a better choice. Even > better of course would be to point out actual problems in Ubuntu's > choice so that we can improve it. (Technical problems, not "I don't > like it" :-) ). > > Thanks, > > Martin > > Yeah, a comparison. I guess I should've made that comparison clarified far better. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On 12/2/14 5:26 AM, Mehboob Nazim wrote: > dear all, > > > i have a marketing server for office use and based linux.Now i need to > change the smtp ip address for a time being because last ip has been > blacklisted.. > > > kindly share me idea.. > > > Erm, first, find out *why* your server was blacklisted. Based upon personal experience, the reason is easily present. Look at blacklisted servers (google it). Look at your *network* traffic and see what is actually going out. I fsck'ed up once on a proxy server I used to use "regular" internet in a nation that massively filtered traffic. I also left far too many IP's open and one spammer got in. The provider cut service and upon inquiry, explained the issue. I immediately remediated my gaffe. Such remained online until I returned home to the US and no longer require said service. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
dear all, i have a marketing server for office use and based linux.Now i need to change the smtp ip address for a time being because last ip has been blacklisted.. kindly share me idea.. On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Stephen P. Villano < stephen.p.vill...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 12/2/14 2:59 AM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: > > On 02.12.2014 08:27, Martin Pitt wrote: > >> Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult [2014-12-02 7:55 +0100]: > >>> By the way: is it then be mandatory ? > >> Yes, it will be. As Scott and others have already pointed out, Ubuntu > >> never offered a choice of init systems, and doesn't plan on doing so. > > Okay, thanks for the clear statement. > > > > So we don't have to bother w/ Ubuntu anymore at all (besides migrating > > away), we can concentrate on Devuan. (eg. getting rid of polkit etc). > > The only blocker right now is Zimbra, which is currently not packaged > > for Debian yet - but as we'll move to OpenZimbra anyways once it's > > stable, we won't have any need for Ubuntu anymore. > > > > > > cu > > -- > Such is the nature of life in the world, especially in the world of > software and operating systems. > Personally, I prefer SElinux to polkit, but such isn't part of the > baseline of Debian and hence, not part of Ubuntu. I just had to take > other measures to ensure security. > Ubuntu follows Debian rather faithfully in the baseline OS. That is the > policy, it leaves a lot less to clean up after and gives a clear > understanding of the "lineage" and sourceline of the OS itself. Ubuntu > branches off in several areas, but they're well defined areas and well > documented by the Ubuntu team. > Personally, I use RedHat for certain uses in the enterprise network I > operate in. I also use Fedora and CentOS in that same environment, > depending upon the client environmental preferences. > At home, my OS of choice is a bit more eclectic. I used to run SuSE > until Novell screwed it up. Since, I've got a rather varied environment > in both my lab environment at home and my production environment at > home. I run a full enterprise network at home. > For my home entertainment system, I use Mythbuntu, as it's clean running > "out of the box" and harden my security with a clear comprehension of > Ubuntu and Debian practices. > Other systems are hardened according to US DoD standards or rather > loose, depending upon which VLAN they "live" on and their purpose and > sensitivity to the function of my home enterprise. > As for my qualifications, I worked my way up from cable monkey to > desktop support, help desk, LAN/WAN operations and senior level > AD/SA/LAN/WAN operations before I moved into Information Assurance. In > that latter field, I've not had a network I was responsible for be > compromised and that counts being in the middle of the 2008 cyberattack > against the US DoD in my area of responsibility. Every other network was > compromised, mine was not. I don't take chances in security. > > So, stay with the distro or go your own way, it's a somewhat free world. > Free as in beer is not free, but personal choices are free in most areas. > > Good night/morning, this discussion has so engaged me and emotionally > aroused me, I'll now go to bed. > Oh wait, it didn't. > I outgrew "If you're not going to play *my* way, I'm taking my marbles > and go home" when I left kindergarten, which was long enough ago that I > do clearly recall watching John F. Kennedy shot live on television. > But, I am serious about going to bed. Both out of lack of adrenaline and > it's past bedtime by a few minutes. > > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > -- Aslamoalikum: regard; Mehboob Nazim Shehzad *Cell # 03320593372* *www.mehboobnazim.com <http://www.sites.google.com/site/mehboobnazim>* *Skype Id: mehboobfraz* [image: Description: Description: Description: http://www.urdupoint.com/daily/ayat/2009-02/962_aqwaal.gif] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
Stephen P. Villano [2014-12-02 5:11 -0500]: > Personally, I prefer SElinux to polkit You know that these two have pretty much nothing in common, right? Perhaps you meant "SELinux over AppArmor"? Indeed that's another example where Debian offers a choice but Ubuntu doesn't -- we examine the alternatives, pick one, and support nothing else. (cf. combinatorial explosion and efficient maintenance and support). So indeed, if for some reason you can't use the choice that Ubuntu made, then going directly to Debian is probably a better choice. Even better of course would be to point out actual problems in Ubuntu's choice so that we can improve it. (Technical problems, not "I don't like it" :-) ). Thanks, Martin -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On 12/2/14 2:59 AM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: > On 02.12.2014 08:27, Martin Pitt wrote: >> Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult [2014-12-02 7:55 +0100]: >>> By the way: is it then be mandatory ? >> Yes, it will be. As Scott and others have already pointed out, Ubuntu >> never offered a choice of init systems, and doesn't plan on doing so. > Okay, thanks for the clear statement. > > So we don't have to bother w/ Ubuntu anymore at all (besides migrating > away), we can concentrate on Devuan. (eg. getting rid of polkit etc). > The only blocker right now is Zimbra, which is currently not packaged > for Debian yet - but as we'll move to OpenZimbra anyways once it's > stable, we won't have any need for Ubuntu anymore. > > > cu > -- Such is the nature of life in the world, especially in the world of software and operating systems. Personally, I prefer SElinux to polkit, but such isn't part of the baseline of Debian and hence, not part of Ubuntu. I just had to take other measures to ensure security. Ubuntu follows Debian rather faithfully in the baseline OS. That is the policy, it leaves a lot less to clean up after and gives a clear understanding of the "lineage" and sourceline of the OS itself. Ubuntu branches off in several areas, but they're well defined areas and well documented by the Ubuntu team. Personally, I use RedHat for certain uses in the enterprise network I operate in. I also use Fedora and CentOS in that same environment, depending upon the client environmental preferences. At home, my OS of choice is a bit more eclectic. I used to run SuSE until Novell screwed it up. Since, I've got a rather varied environment in both my lab environment at home and my production environment at home. I run a full enterprise network at home. For my home entertainment system, I use Mythbuntu, as it's clean running "out of the box" and harden my security with a clear comprehension of Ubuntu and Debian practices. Other systems are hardened according to US DoD standards or rather loose, depending upon which VLAN they "live" on and their purpose and sensitivity to the function of my home enterprise. As for my qualifications, I worked my way up from cable monkey to desktop support, help desk, LAN/WAN operations and senior level AD/SA/LAN/WAN operations before I moved into Information Assurance. In that latter field, I've not had a network I was responsible for be compromised and that counts being in the middle of the 2008 cyberattack against the US DoD in my area of responsibility. Every other network was compromised, mine was not. I don't take chances in security. So, stay with the distro or go your own way, it's a somewhat free world. Free as in beer is not free, but personal choices are free in most areas. Good night/morning, this discussion has so engaged me and emotionally aroused me, I'll now go to bed. Oh wait, it didn't. I outgrew "If you're not going to play *my* way, I'm taking my marbles and go home" when I left kindergarten, which was long enough ago that I do clearly recall watching John F. Kennedy shot live on television. But, I am serious about going to bed. Both out of lack of adrenaline and it's past bedtime by a few minutes. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On 02.12.2014 08:27, Martin Pitt wrote: > Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult [2014-12-02 7:55 +0100]: >> By the way: is it then be mandatory ? > > Yes, it will be. As Scott and others have already pointed out, Ubuntu > never offered a choice of init systems, and doesn't plan on doing so. Okay, thanks for the clear statement. So we don't have to bother w/ Ubuntu anymore at all (besides migrating away), we can concentrate on Devuan. (eg. getting rid of polkit etc). The only blocker right now is Zimbra, which is currently not packaged for Debian yet - but as we'll move to OpenZimbra anyways once it's stable, we won't have any need for Ubuntu anymore. cu -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consulting +49-151-27565287 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult [2014-12-02 7:55 +0100]: > By the way: is it then be mandatory ? Yes, it will be. As Scott and others have already pointed out, Ubuntu never offered a choice of init systems, and doesn't plan on doing so. This just introduces complexity, combinatorial testing explosion, etc. that we don't want and don't offer for any other part of the plumbing stack. Martin -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On 01.12.2014 19:15, Tom H wrote: > Especially after deciding a few months ago to switch to systemd! By the way: is it then be mandatory ? Because, for me, that would mean leaving Ubuntu, definitively. I'm currently exploring ways for getting rid of polkit, and also trimming down in other places (eg. get rid of cups stuff). In case of Ubuntu will force me to use systemd, I wont invest any resources here (also never again rollout Ubuntu for my customers), instead fully concentrate on Devuan. cu -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consulting +49-151-27565287 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
It's fairly impossible, at this point in time, to have a discuss about Devuan without it also being a discussion about systemd, that is the raison d'etat for it's existence. If they can get it off the ground and produce a stable, sustainable distribution, then that might change. Michael Hall mhall...@gmail.com On 12/01/2014 02:31 PM, Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > El 01/12/14 a las 15:45, Michael Hall escibió: >> Please do keep an eye on Devuan's development, and participate in it if >> you are interested in the direction they are taking. But I think we can >> all agree that it is *far* too early to start thinking about rebase-ing >> off of it. > I only seek to comment that it would be interesting to pay attention to > the project. I do not know why it ended in a discussion about systemd or > its alternatives. or why it created so many negative reactions. > It is not the first time that Ubuntu takes a fork (libreoffice, libav) > and I think that negative reactions as exaggerated discourage > participation of users > > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
It's in its initial phases; we're capable of many options; we've forked many things in the past. It's not about a holy war between versions, it's not about a dislike of a topic, it's simply something that can either be discussed or ignored. One can either contribute their opinion or leave it be, let it pile up among the other emails discussing things that either perk one's interest and passion in Ubuntu, or distract from one's area in a sea of email. -- 3D56BAF174656A19 +1307.438.9583 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On Monday, December 01, 2014 04:31:55 PM Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > El 01/12/14 a las 15:45, Michael Hall escibió: > > Please do keep an eye on Devuan's development, and participate in it if > > you are interested in the direction they are taking. But I think we can > > all agree that it is*far* too early to start thinking about rebase-ing > > off of it. > > I only seek to comment that it would be interesting to pay attention to > the project. I do not know why it ended in a discussion about systemd or > its alternatives. or why it created so many negative reactions. > It is not the first time that Ubuntu takes a fork (libreoffice, libav) > and I think that negative reactions as exaggerated discourage > participation of users The only reason Devuan exists is some people "don't like" for a large value of "don't like" systemd, so if you bring it up, systemd is automatically in the picture. Personally, as someone who participates in both Ubuntu and Debian development, I'm entirely sick of the topic. While I don't want to discourage user participation generally, I don't think this is a productive line of conversation. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
El 01/12/14 a las 15:45, Michael Hall escibió: Please do keep an eye on Devuan's development, and participate in it if you are interested in the direction they are taking. But I think we can all agree that it is*far* too early to start thinking about rebase-ing off of it. I only seek to comment that it would be interesting to pay attention to the project. I do not know why it ended in a discussion about systemd or its alternatives. or why it created so many negative reactions. It is not the first time that Ubuntu takes a fork (libreoffice, libav) and I think that negative reactions as exaggerated discourage participation of users -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On 12/01/2014 09:22 AM, Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > I just learned of the launch of Devuan > https://devuan.org/ > A fork of Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and > promises to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community > towards the derived distros > Will have to see how the project evolves, but if they do not be a bad > idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it > Please do keep an eye on Devuan's development, and participate in it if you are interested in the direction they are taking. But I think we can all agree that it is *far* too early to start thinking about rebase-ing off of it. Michael Hall mhall...@ubuntu.com -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
Please note that telling somebody you think their post is off-topic is not the same as telling them it can not be discussed. The topic has in fact continued to be discussed despite Scott's opinion. If you don't agree with him, just say so and continue the discussion, there is no need to make this personal. Michael Hall mhall...@ubuntu.com On 12/01/2014 12:11 PM, Alexander Hanff wrote: > Who died and made you god of what people can and cannot discuss on this > list. Diego spotted an interesting new development which he brought to the > attention of the list with the suggestion that it might potentially be > useful to Ubuntu in the future - that is completely relevant and completely > acceptable content to post - you have zero right to come down on him and > accuse him of being off-topic just because you don't like the idea, so > please, get off your high horse. > > -Original Message- > From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com > [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Scott > Kitterman > Sent: 01 December 2014 18:03 > To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Subject: Re: Devuan > > As I explained, it's not relevant. I get you think it is. I disagree. The > mail (since you care to debate it) is also based on a false premise. There > is no requirement in Debian to use systemd as the init system. It is the > default. It's trivial to retain sysvinit and possible to use upstart. > > None of which is relevant to Ubuntu which has never offered init system > choice and moved off of sysvinit last decade. > > Scott K > > On Monday, December 01, 2014 05:58:37 PM Alexander Hanff wrote: >> I don't think your response was called for Scott - whether you agree >> or not with the suggestion doesn't make it any less relevant. To say >> it is off-topic is ridiculous, it is absolutely relevant to Ubuntu >> development and was something Diego wanted to point out as a potential >> option for Ubuntu in the future. >> >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com >> [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of >> Scott Kitterman >> Sent: 01 December 2014 17:42 >> To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com >> Subject: Re: Devuan >> >> On Monday, December 01, 2014 11:22:22 AM Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: >>> I just learned of the launch of Devuan https://devuan.org/ A fork of >>> Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and promises >>> to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community towards the >>> derived distros Will have to see how the project evolves, but if >>> they do not be a bad idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it >> >> That's rather unrelated to Ubuntu development. Ubuntu has taken it's >> own decisions on init systems for some time (it wasn't in this decade >> that Ubuntu last had a release that used sysvinit). >> >> Please stay on topic. >> >> Scott K >> >> -- >> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list >> Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com >> Modify settings or unsubscribe at: >> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss > > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > > I just learned of the launch of Devuan > https://devuan.org/ > A fork of Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and > promises to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community towards > the derived distros > Will have to see how the project evolves, but if they do not be a bad idea > that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it Why would Ubuntu want to go back to the init that it abandoned eight years ago?! Especially after deciding a few months ago to switch to systemd! -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
I'm not a list admin, so it's only my opinion. I don't have any power stop anyone from saying anything. People can discuss whatever they want that's related to Ubuntu development (thus the name of the list). Personally, I think discussion of other potential Debian derivatives doesn't qualify. Other people may feel differently. What you might consider is that many Ubuntu developers don't bother to subscribe to this list since the signal to noise ratio is low. If you lower it, then more will unsubscribe. This is supposed to be a list where developers and non-developers can interact and discuss Ubuntu development, but in the past developers have just unsubscribed when it got to unpleasant. We really, really don't need the Debian systemd flames leaking into Ubuntu. Posting about it here is, in my opinion, only going to have a negative result. Most (if not all) of the Ubuntu developers who work on the core platform (including init) are also involved in Debian, so it's not like we aren't well aware of it. Scott K On Monday, December 01, 2014 18:11:20 Alexander Hanff wrote: > Who died and made you god of what people can and cannot discuss on this > list. Diego spotted an interesting new development which he brought to the > attention of the list with the suggestion that it might potentially be > useful to Ubuntu in the future - that is completely relevant and completely > acceptable content to post - you have zero right to come down on him and > accuse him of being off-topic just because you don't like the idea, so > please, get off your high horse. > > -Original Message- > From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com > [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Scott > Kitterman > Sent: 01 December 2014 18:03 > To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Subject: Re: Devuan > > As I explained, it's not relevant. I get you think it is. I disagree. The > mail (since you care to debate it) is also based on a false premise. There > is no requirement in Debian to use systemd as the init system. It is the > default. It's trivial to retain sysvinit and possible to use upstart. > > None of which is relevant to Ubuntu which has never offered init system > choice and moved off of sysvinit last decade. > > Scott K > > On Monday, December 01, 2014 05:58:37 PM Alexander Hanff wrote: > > I don't think your response was called for Scott - whether you agree > > or not with the suggestion doesn't make it any less relevant. To say > > it is off-topic is ridiculous, it is absolutely relevant to Ubuntu > > development and was something Diego wanted to point out as a potential > > option for Ubuntu in the future. > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com > > [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of > > Scott Kitterman > > Sent: 01 December 2014 17:42 > > To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > > Subject: Re: Devuan > > > > On Monday, December 01, 2014 11:22:22 AM Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > > > I just learned of the launch of Devuan https://devuan.org/ A fork of > > > Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and promises > > > to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community towards the > > > derived distros Will have to see how the project evolves, but if > > > they do not be a bad idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it > > > > That's rather unrelated to Ubuntu development. Ubuntu has taken it's > > own decisions on init systems for some time (it wasn't in this decade > > that Ubuntu last had a release that used sysvinit). > > > > Please stay on topic. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On Monday, December 01, 2014 14:17:57 Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > El 01/12/14 a las 14:11, Alexander Hanff escibió: > > Who died and made you god of what people can and cannot discuss on this > > list. Diego spotted an interesting new development which he brought to > > the > > attention of the list with the suggestion that it might potentially be > > useful to Ubuntu in the future - that is completely relevant and > > completely > > acceptable content to post - you have zero right to come down on him and > > accuse him of being off-topic just because you don't like the idea, so > > please, get off your high horse. > > A distro is much more than a bit of code. Devuan uses systemD it as an > excuse to create a more open, less bureaucratic and more friendly to the > derivative distrio community. > Anyway Debian recently modified its decision not to mandate systemd > after protests within the community Nonsense. It was never mandatory. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
El 01/12/14 a las 14:11, Alexander Hanff escibió: Who died and made you god of what people can and cannot discuss on this list. Diego spotted an interesting new development which he brought to the attention of the list with the suggestion that it might potentially be useful to Ubuntu in the future - that is completely relevant and completely acceptable content to post - you have zero right to come down on him and accuse him of being off-topic just because you don't like the idea, so please, get off your high horse. A distro is much more than a bit of code. Devuan uses systemD it as an excuse to create a more open, less bureaucratic and more friendly to the derivative distrio community. Anyway Debian recently modified its decision not to mandate systemd after protests within the community -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Devuan
Who died and made you god of what people can and cannot discuss on this list. Diego spotted an interesting new development which he brought to the attention of the list with the suggestion that it might potentially be useful to Ubuntu in the future - that is completely relevant and completely acceptable content to post - you have zero right to come down on him and accuse him of being off-topic just because you don't like the idea, so please, get off your high horse. -Original Message- From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Scott Kitterman Sent: 01 December 2014 18:03 To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Devuan As I explained, it's not relevant. I get you think it is. I disagree. The mail (since you care to debate it) is also based on a false premise. There is no requirement in Debian to use systemd as the init system. It is the default. It's trivial to retain sysvinit and possible to use upstart. None of which is relevant to Ubuntu which has never offered init system choice and moved off of sysvinit last decade. Scott K On Monday, December 01, 2014 05:58:37 PM Alexander Hanff wrote: > I don't think your response was called for Scott - whether you agree > or not with the suggestion doesn't make it any less relevant. To say > it is off-topic is ridiculous, it is absolutely relevant to Ubuntu > development and was something Diego wanted to point out as a potential > option for Ubuntu in the future. > > > > -Original Message- > From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com > [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of > Scott Kitterman > Sent: 01 December 2014 17:42 > To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Subject: Re: Devuan > > On Monday, December 01, 2014 11:22:22 AM Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > > I just learned of the launch of Devuan https://devuan.org/ A fork of > > Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and promises > > to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community towards the > > derived distros Will have to see how the project evolves, but if > > they do not be a bad idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it > > That's rather unrelated to Ubuntu development. Ubuntu has taken it's > own decisions on init systems for some time (it wasn't in this decade > that Ubuntu last had a release that used sysvinit). > > Please stay on topic. > > Scott K > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
As I explained, it's not relevant. I get you think it is. I disagree. The mail (since you care to debate it) is also based on a false premise. There is no requirement in Debian to use systemd as the init system. It is the default. It's trivial to retain sysvinit and possible to use upstart. None of which is relevant to Ubuntu which has never offered init system choice and moved off of sysvinit last decade. Scott K On Monday, December 01, 2014 05:58:37 PM Alexander Hanff wrote: > I don't think your response was called for Scott - whether you agree or not > with the suggestion doesn't make it any less relevant. To say it is > off-topic is ridiculous, it is absolutely relevant to Ubuntu development and > was something Diego wanted to point out as a potential option for Ubuntu in > the future. > > > > -Original Message- > From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com > [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Scott > Kitterman > Sent: 01 December 2014 17:42 > To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Subject: Re: Devuan > > On Monday, December 01, 2014 11:22:22 AM Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > > I just learned of the launch of Devuan https://devuan.org/ A fork of > > Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and promises > > to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community towards the > > derived distros Will have to see how the project evolves, but if they > > do not be a bad idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it > > That's rather unrelated to Ubuntu development. Ubuntu has taken it's own > decisions on init systems for some time (it wasn't in this decade that > Ubuntu last had a release that used sysvinit). > > Please stay on topic. > > Scott K > > -- > Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list > Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
RE: Devuan
I don't think your response was called for Scott - whether you agree or not with the suggestion doesn't make it any less relevant. To say it is off-topic is ridiculous, it is absolutely relevant to Ubuntu development and was something Diego wanted to point out as a potential option for Ubuntu in the future. -Original Message- From: ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com [mailto:ubuntu-devel-discuss-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com] On Behalf Of Scott Kitterman Sent: 01 December 2014 17:42 To: ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: Devuan On Monday, December 01, 2014 11:22:22 AM Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > I just learned of the launch of Devuan https://devuan.org/ A fork of > Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and promises > to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community towards the > derived distros Will have to see how the project evolves, but if they > do not be a bad idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it That's rather unrelated to Ubuntu development. Ubuntu has taken it's own decisions on init systems for some time (it wasn't in this decade that Ubuntu last had a release that used sysvinit). Please stay on topic. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Devuan
On Monday, December 01, 2014 11:22:22 AM Diego Germán Gonzalez wrote: > I just learned of the launch of Devuan > https://devuan.org/ > A fork of Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and > promises to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community > towards the derived distros > Will have to see how the project evolves, but if they do not be a bad > idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it That's rather unrelated to Ubuntu development. Ubuntu has taken it's own decisions on init systems for some time (it wasn't in this decade that Ubuntu last had a release that used sysvinit). Please stay on topic. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Devuan
I just learned of the launch of Devuan https://devuan.org/ A fork of Debian which eliminates the requirement to use systemd, and promises to build a less bureaucratic and more friendly community towards the derived distros Will have to see how the project evolves, but if they do not be a bad idea that Ubuntu will begin to rely on it -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
