Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Alberto Salvia Novella:
> What do you see when you look at ?

C de-Avillez:

I am pretty sure I know the definitions for importance values but,
anyway, thank you for pointing them to me.


What I mean is if you feel that users could tell which the appropriate 
importance is by reading .



C de-Avillez:
> Our experience on Ubuntu, and my personal experience when doing
> support work professionally, still shows me that end-users should not
> have access to importance, as implemented in LP.

It could be, but it would be nice testing with an interface whose 
descriptions are concise for anyone.



C de-Avillez:
> So, even if we are to allow end-users (the original posters) to email
> BugControl stating a bug is critical -- but*NOT*  changing importance
> directly -- I have serious doubts about how effective it will be.

It depends on how much false positives there will be.


Alberto Salvia Novella:
> We can try, perhaps by setting a new ML for that. But
> definitely NOT by having the OP email BugControl.

I think we will be able to decide this better after having some metrics, 
as it isn't the same moderating 1 mail a month or 25.



C de-Avillez:
> We can then verify how much overhead it will be.

Better to test first with a personal email, so we can omit setting up 
all that infrastructure with the risk of jumping it later on.



C de-Avillez:
> At least for the beginning, I do not expect many emails, but that
> might change as this new channel gets to be known.

We can take metrics till, for example, some weeks after Ubuntu 14.10 has 
been released; when users usually report the greatest quantity of bugs.



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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[C de-Avillez]

On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 9:14 PM, Alberto Salvia Novella
 wrote:
> C de-Avillez:
>>
>> I will try to stress the above a bit more: users in general will always
>> assume their bug is high/critical (it is, by definition, affecting their
>> work!).
>>
>> We did have it, sort of, on for a while -- and we found that importance
>> would have to be controlled. We used to spend a nice amount of time
>> correcting importance. Samewise with moving to triaged, or fix released,
>> or wontfix.
>
>
> What do you see when you look at ?

I am pretty sure I know the definitions for importance values but,
anyway, thank you for pointing them to me.

This, on the other hand, does not explain or justify giving end-users
access to setting importance (or even understanding how to set it).
Our experience on Ubuntu, and my personal experience when doing
support work professionally, still shows me that end-users should not
have access to importance, as implemented in LP. So, even if we are to
allow end-users (the original posters) to email BugControl stating a
bug is critical -- but *NOT* changing importance directly -- I have
serious doubts about how effective it will be.

This would be different if LP supported user-view of importance and
impact *separate* from bug importance as seen by the technical
resource -- developer or triager. But it does not.

Going on. We can try, perhaps by setting a new ML for that. But
definitely NOT by having the OP email BugControl. We can then verify
how much overhead it will be. At least for the beginning, I do not
expect many emails, but that might change as this new channel gets to
be known.

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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

C de-Avillez:

I will try to stress the above a bit more: users in general will always
assume their bug is high/critical (it is, by definition, affecting their
work!).

We did have it, sort of, on for a while -- and we found that importance
would have to be controlled. We used to spend a nice amount of time
correcting importance. Samewise with moving to triaged, or fix released,
or wontfix.


What do you see when you look at ?



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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[C de-Avillez]

On 20/11/14 09:00, Brian Murray wrote:
> I think this is a false assumption, in that the people setting the bug's
> importance to critical know the definition of critical and are able to
> independently judge the bug's importance. Some Launchpad user reporting
> or experiencing the bug report is much more likely to think their bug
> report is critical. Subsequently, I think your numbers are quite low and
> optimistic.

I will try to stress the above a bit more: users in general will always
assume their bug is high/critical (it is, by definition, affecting their
work!).

We did have it, sort of, on for a while -- and we found that importance
would have to be controlled. We used to spend a nice amount of time
correcting importance. Samewise with moving to triaged, or fix released,
or wontfix.

> 
> Another consideration is that the Ubuntu Bug Control mailing list is
> moderated so any emails sent to it will need to be approved by an
> administrator. I'd like it if a different system were used.

Agreed 100%.

Cheers,

..C..




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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Brendan Perrine:

I don't think pinging Brian Murray or other bug squad admins would be

> good if it ends up someone thinks ubiquity is broken when it was a bad

burn or dd of an iso or bad md5sum.This is what the iso testing

> tracker is for.

Better to shade these details after having metrics on hand.



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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[Brendan Perrine]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2014 19:47:00 +0100
Alberto Salvia Novella  wrote:

> Brian Murray:
> > I think this is a false assumption, in that the people setting the bug's
> > importance to critical know the definition of critical and are able to
> > independently judge the bug's importance. Some Launchpad user reporting
> > or experiencing the bug report is much more likely to think their bug
> > report is critical. Subsequently, I think your numbers are quite low and
> > optimistic.
> >
> > Another consideration is that the Ubuntu Bug Control mailing list is
> > moderated so any emails sent to it will need to be approved by an
> > administrator. I'd like it if a different system were used.
> 
> Perhaps we could direct those warnings to me for a while, collect 
> metrics, and decide on those.
> 
> 
> 
I don't think pinging Brian Murray or other bug squad admins would be good if 
it ends up someone thinks ubiquity is broken when it was a bad burn or dd of an 
iso or bad md5sum.This is what the iso testing tracker is for. 



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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Brian Murray:

I think this is a false assumption, in that the people setting the bug's
importance to critical know the definition of critical and are able to
independently judge the bug's importance. Some Launchpad user reporting
or experiencing the bug report is much more likely to think their bug
report is critical. Subsequently, I think your numbers are quite low and
optimistic.

Another consideration is that the Ubuntu Bug Control mailing list is
moderated so any emails sent to it will need to be approved by an
administrator. I'd like it if a different system were used.


Perhaps we could direct those warnings to me for a while, collect 
metrics, and decide on those.




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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[Brian Murray]

On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 05:11:52PM +0100, Alberto Salvia Novella wrote:
> Thomas Ward:
> >How would a user know what a critical bug is?
> 
> Instead of asking to report critical bugs, you can ask "if the bug
> causes data corruption or renders the system temporally or
> permanently unusable, please warn about it to the Bug Control team".
> 
> 
> Thomas Ward:
> > why would they need to email bug control?
> 
> So the team can set importance early, instead these bugs remain
> unnoticed in a pool of reports.
> 
> 
> Thomas Ward:
> > And where in the documentation would you put this?
> 
> On .
> 
> 
> Thomas Ward:
> > Further, while bugs may be 'critical' and need attention, does
> > everyone on bug control really need to be notified of every critical
> > bug?
> 
> There are only 47 known critical bugs for all the supported
> releases, and only 14 affecting Utopic.
> 
> Probably the Bug Control team would be receiving less than 10 emails
> for every circle of 6 months.

I think this is a false assumption, in that the people setting the bug's
importance to critical know the definition of critical and are able to
independently judge the bug's importance. Some Launchpad user reporting
or experiencing the bug report is much more likely to think their bug
report is critical. Subsequently, I think your numbers are quite low and
optimistic.

Another consideration is that the Ubuntu Bug Control mailing list is
moderated so any emails sent to it will need to be approved by an
administrator. I'd like it if a different system were used.

--
Brian Murray
Ubuntu Bug Master


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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Alberto Salvia Novella:

Perhaps asking users in documentation to mail the Ubuntu Bug Control
team when they find a critical bug would be a good idea.


Added as 
.




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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Thomas Ward:
> The only way this can work is if people familiar with the package /
> issue actively are alerted about the criticality issue.  In those
> cases, though, they're likely already watching the bugs in the
> specific packages.  So how does this expedite processing of the bugs?

By making Launchpad to short those first when visiting a project bug 
section, even for a package maintainer or somebody willing to report 
bugs upstream while triaging.



Thomas Ward:
> As well, we're going to have a lot of users who aren't familiar with
> the importance criterion, emailing in and saying "Oh, this is
> critical", because they don't read the importance requirements, and
> we're probably going to get higher amounts of incorrectly-reported
> items in the bug control inbox.

So better to change saying it is critical for telling it renders the 
system temporally or permanently unusable.



Thomas Ward:
> Just because we set the importance does not mean it gets fixed faster.

Because critical flaws are discovered sooner, it also allows to work on 
them sooner. To stop watering weeds for watering trees.




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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[Thomas Ward]

On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 12:44 PM, Alberto Salvia Novella
 wrote:
>
> Brendan Perrine:
>> If this gets to all users how can we make sure there are not people
>> that think this bug affects me therefore it is critical which could
>> make lots of mistakes. Or a user that is like I want this fixed badly
>> therefore it is critical.
>
> In the last term the Bug Control team is who sets the importance, not the
> reported.

The only way this can work is if people familiar with the package /
issue actively are
alerted about the criticality issue.  In those cases, though, they're
likely already watching
the bugs in the specific packages.  So how does this expedite
processing of the bugs?

As well, we're going to have a lot of users who aren't familiar with
the importance criterion,
emailing in and saying "Oh, this is critical", because they don't read
the importance
requirements, and we're probably going to get higher amounts of
incorrectly-reported
items in the bug control inbox.

>
>
> Brendan Perrine:
>> How would this be any different than a bug that ends up in red on the
>> bug tracker that makes an install fail.
>
> Nothing, as the bug would be tracked in Launchpad equally.

If this makes it no different than any other bug, how does notifying
Bug Control about
potentially critical bugs make any real difference?  Just because we
set the importance
does not mean it gets fixed faster.

>
> Brendan Perrine:
>> A bug tag on launchpad like iso-testing-critical for bugs that caused
>> a failed testcase could be something to make triaging easier and
>> would encourage people to use the tracker and would work on top of
>> the already existing infrastructre.
>
> Why putting "critical" to a tag when there's already a field for priorities?
> How can adding a new tag to the list of 123 we have encourage people to use
> the tracker?

This.  There's no need for a 'critical' tag.  If we had a 'critical'
tag we'd need the additional
tags for every other importance and that's not necessarily needed.


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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Thomas Ward:

We need to be really careful with how we define 'data corruption'.
There are cases, such as in the nginx package, where data is
overwritten by the package because it ships defaults.  If the
configuration files, and/or included default file directories, get
overwritten, this can cause 'data corruption via overwriting', but
that's not a Critical bug, that's a case where the user used the
default location controlled by the package manager, not necessarily a
bug in the package itself.


If the warned bug is not a critical one, the team can simply set it with 
another priority.


And I think the "data corruption" meaning is easily understood taking 
into account the communicative context, or overwriting configuration is 
not data corruption.



Brendan Perrine:
> If this gets to all users how can we make sure there are not people
> that think this bug affects me therefore it is critical which could
> make lots of mistakes. Or a user that is like I want this fixed badly
> therefore it is critical.

In the last term the Bug Control team is who sets the importance, not 
the reported.



Brendan Perrine:
> How would this be any different than a bug that ends up in red on the
> bug tracker that makes an install fail.

Nothing, as the bug would be tracked in Launchpad equally.


Brendan Perrine:
> A bug tag on launchpad like iso-testing-critical for bugs that caused
> a failed testcase could be something to make triaging easier and
> would encourage people to use the tracker and would work on top of
> the already existing infrastructre.

Why putting "critical" to a tag when there's already a field for priorities?

How can adding a new tag to the list of 123 we have encourage people to 
use the tracker?




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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[Thomas Ward]

I think we need to really tread carefully here...

On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Nio Wiklund  wrote:
> Den 2014-11-10 17:11, Alberto Salvia Novella skrev:
>> Thomas Ward:
>>> How would a user know what a critical bug is?
>>
>> Instead of asking to report critical bugs, you can ask "if the bug
>> causes data corruption or renders the system temporally or permanently
>> unusable, please warn about it to the Bug Control team".
>
> I think this is a good idea, definitely worth trying :-)

We need to be really careful with how we define 'data corruption'.
There are cases, such as in the nginx package, where data is
overwritten by the package because it ships defaults.  If the
configuration files, and/or included default file directories, get
overwritten, this can cause 'data corruption via overwriting', but
that's not a Critical bug, that's a case where the user used the
default location controlled by the package manager, not necessarily a
bug in the package itself.

If we define 'data corruption' to be, say, a partition-wide
corruption, that's different than a few configs being deleted or
corrupted but. being repairable or replaceable.  Therefore, we need to
explicitly define 'data corruption' in context of how we want
something to be determined as 'critical'.

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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[Nio Wiklund]

Den 2014-11-10 17:11, Alberto Salvia Novella skrev:
> Thomas Ward:
>> How would a user know what a critical bug is?
> 
> Instead of asking to report critical bugs, you can ask "if the bug
> causes data corruption or renders the system temporally or permanently
> unusable, please warn about it to the Bug Control team".

I think this is a good idea, definitely worth trying :-)

> Thomas Ward:
>> why would they need to email bug control?
> 
> So the team can set importance early, instead these bugs remain
> unnoticed in a pool of reports.
>

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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[Brendan Perrine]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2014 09:15:53 -0500
cprofitt  wrote:

> It is an interesting idea if I am interpreting things correctly.
> 
> What I think is being said is:
> 
>   * If someone writing documentation finds a bug they report it to
> bug control
> 
> The idea sounds like it could be a positive one, but I too question how
> they would know a bug is critical. Certainly, having bug-control alerted
> could be helpful.
> 
> It does raise another question though.
> 
> What would make this any different than a normal bug report?
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
> On Mon, 2014-11-10 at 00:59 -0500, Thomas Ward wrote:
> > I... don't see your logic here.
> > 
> > When I read your statement I have a thousand questions show up in my
> > head:  How would a user know what a critical bug is?  Better question,
> > why would they need to email bug control?  And where in the
> > documentation would you put this?
> > 
> > Further, while bugs may be 'critical' and need attention, does everyone
> > on bug control really need to be notified of every critical bug?
> > 
> > 
> > I'm curious what your reasoning for asking this question is.  Mind
> > explaining how you came up with this suggestion/idea?
> 
> 
> 
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How would this be any different than a bug that ends up in red on the bug 
tracker that makes an install fail. I am not sure about things in packages on 
in the installer though that is a harder question to answer. Notifying bug 
control of things like that may be nice but I don't know of any systems already 
in place. If this gets to all users how can we make sure there are not people 
that think this bug affects me therefore it is critical which could make lots 
of mistakes. Or a user that is like I want this fixed badly therefore it is 
critical. I think we need to not only know when users correctly identify 
critical bugs but what happens with mistakes and what makes ubuntu have better 
quailty overall. 

A bug tag on launchpad like iso-testing-critical for bugs that caused a failed 
testcase could be something to make triaging easier and would encourage people 
to use the tracker and would work on top of the already existing infrastructre. 
Or maybe iso-testing-fail could be another name for the tag. 

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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[Alberto Salvia Novella]

Thomas Ward:

How would a user know what a critical bug is?


Instead of asking to report critical bugs, you can ask "if the bug 
causes data corruption or renders the system temporally or permanently 
unusable, please warn about it to the Bug Control team".



Thomas Ward:
> why would they need to email bug control?

So the team can set importance early, instead these bugs remain 
unnoticed in a pool of reports.



Thomas Ward:
> And where in the documentation would you put this?

On .


Thomas Ward:
> Further, while bugs may be 'critical' and need attention, does
> everyone on bug control really need to be notified of every critical
> bug?

There are only 47 known critical bugs for all the supported releases, 
and only 14 affecting Utopic.


Probably the Bug Control team would be receiving less than 10 emails for 
every circle of 6 months.



Thomas Ward:
> Mind explaining how you came up with this suggestion/idea?

Because I noticed many critical bugs only get marked as such after a 
long time has passed.



Charles Profit:
> What would make this any different than a normal bug report?

Nearly no critical bug would go unnoticed into releases, and broken 
systems would be unusable for the shortest period of time.




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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[cprofitt]

It is an interesting idea if I am interpreting things correctly.

What I think is being said is:

  * If someone writing documentation finds a bug they report it to
bug control

The idea sounds like it could be a positive one, but I too question how
they would know a bug is critical. Certainly, having bug-control alerted
could be helpful.

It does raise another question though.

What would make this any different than a normal bug report?

Charles


On Mon, 2014-11-10 at 00:59 -0500, Thomas Ward wrote:
> I... don't see your logic here.
> 
> When I read your statement I have a thousand questions show up in my
> head:  How would a user know what a critical bug is?  Better question,
> why would they need to email bug control?  And where in the
> documentation would you put this?
> 
> Further, while bugs may be 'critical' and need attention, does everyone
> on bug control really need to be notified of every critical bug?
> 
> 
> I'm curious what your reasoning for asking this question is.  Mind
> explaining how you came up with this suggestion/idea?



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Re: What if users warned about critical bugs?

[Thomas Ward]

I... don't see your logic here.

When I read your statement I have a thousand questions show up in my head:  How 
would a user know what a critical bug is?  Better question, why would they need 
to email bug control?  And where in the documentation would you put this?

Further, while bugs may be 'critical' and need attention, does everyone on bug 
control really need to be notified of every critical bug?


I'm curious what your reasoning for asking this question is.  Mind explaining 
how you came up with this suggestion/idea?


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*Sent from my iPhone.  Please excuse any typos, as they are likely to happen by 
accident.*

> On Nov 9, 2014, at 20:27, Alberto Salvia Novella  
> wrote:
> 
> Perhaps asking users in documentation to mail the Ubuntu Bug Control team 
> when they find a critical bug would be a good idea. What do you think?
> 
> 
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