Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] menu layout
On 2015-05-20 00:06, Len Ovens wrote: On to Graphics... (...) I do like separation and agree that having separate menus may not be needed. So, looking at the Audio Production menu we have now. You can see that it is devided into four sections with a divider line between each one. I would like to do the same thing here. I looked at the total number of applications involved and do not think it would be too much to look at all at once. Len, You rock! I think its brilliant :) -- Set Hallstrom -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] menu layout
On Tue, 19 May 2015 15:06:28 -0700 (PDT), Len Ovens wrote: I would also like to rename mixers to something that would include audio utilities that are not used very often. ^ If it's not a sub menu name it Audio utility, if it's a sub menu call it Utility. I don't want a photographer to dismiss Studio because photography is stuck in a little corner as a submenu of graphics. Graphics art, typography and photography belong to each other. Manipulating a photo is graphics art. A sub menu Photography isn't a little corner like a sub menu Other for not that wide spread arts such as http://embroidermodder.org/news0.html would be. For the individual software a user prefers, the user anyway needs to design a menu on her/his own and then it's an advantage to have no sub menus. When I start a session I run a script that checks the installed packages and adds version numbers to the menu entries of some applications, since that for some apps is important to me. By default you can't customize a menu to satisfy every freakish need. The Audio and Video, resp. Multimedia menu is the only menu that really is a mess, when Pro-audio apps are installed, that's why it makes sense to customize it by default, but don't overdo it and stay with upstream for most other menus. Keep in mind that some Linux user use several distros, not all users are devotees of one distro only. Freedsektop.org often is a PITA, but sometimes it provides a useful consistency. 2 Cents from somebody who used Ubuntu Studio and who might use it in the future again. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] menu layout
On 2015-05-20 09:17, Kaj Ailomaa wrote: I'm not sure i understand. First you write: I'd rather first try using submenus then (using a menu at all is a nuisance, if you ask me - using your mouse to navigate is time consuming). So, was that first sentence i quote intended to state: I'd rather _not_ first try using submenus? I've always said that the best way to educate the user is through documentation, both written and in video, not by using the menu as an education tool for how to find your workflow. But, having labels to describe what an application is for is helpful in the end. How will someone know which applications are specifically targeted at photography for example, if all graphics apps are in the same menu? If it is very important to keep photography in an easy to access menu, then we keep it the way we had it originally. Would it be possible to introduce text in the separation? That would both reduce mouse navigation and guide the user -- Set Hallstrom AKA Sakrecoer http://sakrecoer.com -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] menu layout
Sorry Kaj, for the formatting of my previous message :/ And maybe not so good formulated... I don't question you, i got confused 3 I hope that got thru. However, about introducing text in the separation. Perhaps if possible it is a good idea. But then again, ATM when you hover the mouse on an app, you get a description of the apps function. I'm not sure how obvious this is to a beginner. But its a fairly common practice on almost any OS i know I'm playing with the thought of how much of a problem it really is NOT to have text in the separation...? -- Set Hallstrom -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] menu layout
On Wed, May 20, 2015, at 12:06 AM, Len Ovens wrote: After thinking about htis all day while working I have some more ideas. In keeping with what is shown at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/UbuntuStudioMenu I have no problem with renaming sub menus in audio. I still think it is right to keep them as submenus because there are so many audio applications that we include and that users will add to that. One thought I do have is that on an audio workstation it may make more sense to default unknown Audio programs to audio production rather than to media playback with the idea that someone interested in Studio is more likely to add a tool that belongs there than a player. I would also like to rename mixers to something that would include audio utilities that are not used very often. Or maybe we can just put such things in there to keep from cluttering up the main audio menu. (Ideas?) There is a freedesktop category named player, which is intended for playback applications. Many of those are for both audio and video though, but that just means they will end up in two different menus. The subcategory player is for both Audio and Video. On to Graphics... Assuming that the wiki layout means for the sub categories to be sub menus... I dissagree. I feel that someone who uses mostly any one of these sub categories will find it fiddly and more steps to get work done. I have no problem with keeping some of the graphics subcategories as separate menu items. Just as I mentioned in a previous post - the freedesktop categorization doesn't need to be hierarchical. I do like separation and agree that having separate menus may not be needed. So, looking at the Audio Production menu we have now. You can see that it is devided into four sections with a divider line between each one. I would like to do the same thing here. I looked at the total number of applications involved and do not think it would be too much to look at all at once. So: Graphics installer divider 2d graphics apps inlined divider photographic apps inlined (photography is 2D graphics) divider 3D graphics apps inlined divider anything else (scanning is probably only one app or two) I'd rather first try using submenus (using a menu at all is a nuisance, if you ask me - using your mouse to navigate is time consuming). I've always said that the best way to educate the user is through documentation, both written and in video, not by using the menu as an education tool for how to find your workflow. But, having labels to describe what an application is for is helpful in the end. How will someone know which applications are specifically targeted at photography for example, if all graphics apps are in the same menu? If it is very important to keep photography in an easy to access menu, then we keep it the way we had it originally. This means that any one of these applications is easy to access, but they are grouped to be easier to find. I don't want a photographer to dismiss Studio because photography is stuck in a little corner as a submenu of graphics. I want Studio to be a first choice for photographers too. It is the same with the way we have set up the audio menu. Anything that we expect to used every time someone works on audio is top audio menu. Anything in submenus below audio should be things used only once in a while. I have not put publishing in there at this point because I feel that our publishing workflow does not fit. Writing a book is about text not graphics. Printing a CD of audio does not belong in graphics either. In fact we have very few things in publishing at all and most almost fit better in office. The few things we want to add to it (CD/DVD authoring) almost fit better back in Audio and Video. Yes, there may be confusion about what publishing actually means. It is a mix of Office and Graphics, and the actual publishing part is in formatting text and images for publication - usually ebooks, posters and covers, and that type of thing. Though web pages and books may sometimes serve the same purpose, there is a difference in how you create them. One is by using graphical formatting tools, the other by using code for formatting (html, css). But, in the end, the goal is the same. I am almost questioning having a publishing workflow at all, at least for the purpose of writng books (ebooks or paper) or creating webpages (which we do not really support at all right now anyway). The original purpose of the publishing as a workflow (in Studio) was electronic typesetting but it seems that the meaning in most people's mind is really distribution... creating CD/DVDs etc. Yeah, I'm not sure I agree on that burning CDs is a publishing tool. More of a utility. And, I could see both audio, graphics and video all have a subcategory for utilities. But, for audio, I feel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] menu layout
On Wed, May 20, 2015, at 09:40 AM, Set Hallstrom wrote: However, about introducing text in the separation. Perhaps if possible it is a good idea. But then again, ATM when you hover the mouse on an app, you get a description of the apps function. I'm not sure how obvious this is to a beginner. But its a fairly common practice on almost any OS i know I'm playing with the thought of how much of a problem it really is NOT to have text in the separation...? Ah, right. I missed that the separators should have text. This is not a bad idea at all IMO. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] menu layout
On Wed, 20 May 2015 09:17:12 +0200, Kaj Ailomaa wrote: publishing Actually it means to provide tools that e.g. allow to make the file for the printing company. For a tacked book, page 16 and 17 might be one sheet, but then 14 and 19 are one sheet and the backside of the sheet with the pages 16 and 17 are for the pages 15 and 18 etc. this and similar apps are publishing apps. Apps to arrange text and pictures are publishing apps. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-C3c9r7Ao1gY/UhsaZMlEDUI/BGY/iEj4AFwT-h8/s1600/scribus.jpg -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] menu layout
On Wed, May 20, 2015, at 10:05 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Wed, 20 May 2015 09:17:12 +0200, Kaj Ailomaa wrote: publishing Actually it means to provide tools that e.g. allow to make the file for the printing company. For a tacked book, page 16 and 17 might be Publishing today does not need to involve actual printing. The publication is the end product. Traditionally it is regarded as something like a book, newspaper or a poster. But, today it can be anything that you can see on a screen, as long as it is the means for distributing information or art of some sort. So, it could be a web page just as well as an e-book, or sheet music in a pdf file. Publishing tools are tools that create that end product. Scribus and MuseScore are both such tools, even though both can be used for other things as well (MuseScore is sometimes used for composition as well). I do find it difficult to place web design applications in the same field, as those are generally regarded as code development tools. That said, a publication can be in html. The difference is in the way you produce the html code. one sheet, but then 14 and 19 are one sheet and the backside of the sheet with the pages 16 and 17 are for the pages 15 and 18 etc. this and similar apps are publishing apps. Apps to arrange text and pictures are publishing apps. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-C3c9r7Ao1gY/UhsaZMlEDUI/BGY/iEj4AFwT-h8/s1600/scribus.jpg -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] menu layout
On Wed, May 20, 2015, at 09:27 AM, Set Hallstrom wrote: On 2015-05-20 09:17, Kaj Ailomaa wrote: I'm not sure i understand. First you write: I'd rather first try using submenus then (using a menu at all is a nuisance, if you ask me - using your mouse to navigate is time consuming). So, was that first sentence i quote intended to state: I'd rather _not_ first try using submenus? No, I said what I intended, but I was very brief and mixed more than one standpoint into the same sentence, which I'm sure can be confusing. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] menu layout
On Wed, 20 May 2015 09:40:20 +0200, Set Hallstrom wrote: beginner Don't confuse a beginner with an intellectually disabled person. Btw. the pictograms of the apps already give much more information, then written text could give. If you are a beginner, then there will be a learning curve. Functionality is functionality and didactics are didactics, don't mix it. A menu has to be functional. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] menu layout
On Wed, 20 May 2015 10:40:52 +0200, Kaj Ailomaa wrote: Publishing today does not need to involve actual printing. That's correct. I do find it difficult to place web design applications in the same field, as those are generally regarded as code development tools. That said, a publication can be in html. The difference is in the way you produce the html code. Markup languages often are part of publishing tools, the tools anyway aren't apps for program language. Publishing is the bridge between artwork and engineering. Using rubber cement is one technique, using a markup language is another technique. And using the mouse, the application might automatically generate perfect markup language code, but an editor to write markup language for publishing is just a publishing tool. Rubber cement and a scalpel are publishing tools too. I've got a scalpel in my graphic art drawers, but I don't have got a scalpel in my medicine cabinet. The medicine cabinet not necessarily is the best place to store the scalpel. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] menu layout
On 2015-05-20 10:21, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Wed, 20 May 2015 09:40:20 +0200, Set Hallstrom wrote: beginner Don't confuse a beginner with an intellectually disabled person. Btw. the pictograms of the apps already give much more information, then written text could give. If you are a beginner, then there will be a learning curve. Functionality is functionality and didactics are didactics, don't mix it. A menu has to be functional. I hear you Ralf. I am all in for pulling users up rather than leveling the interface down. But in this case, a description in the separator isn't very far from the current way things are displayed by workflows, except it provides an easier mouse navigation. -- Set Hallstrom AKA Sakrecoer http://sakrecoer.com -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] menu layout
On Wed, May 20, 2015, at 12:06 AM, Len Ovens wrote: So: Graphics installer divider 2d graphics apps inlined divider photographic apps inlined (photography is 2D graphics) divider 3D graphics apps inlined divider anything else (scanning is probably only one app or two) (the menu is not only for the apps we currently supply - just a note :) I added a remark on the wiki page about the sub categories not needing to be sub menus. They can just as well be dividers with a description. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] menu layout
On Wed, 20 May 2015, Set Hallstrom wrote: Would it be possible to introduce text in the separation? That would both reduce mouse navigation and guide the user That would be non-standard and therefore not supported in most (any?) DEs. I thought of it once before :) There is however, an inline menu layout option. There is also an inline_limit= option. So a sub menu could be inline if there are only 4 (for example) items in the menu and become a submenu if there are more. The inline submenu can have the menu name at the top of the inlined items. I think I need to try making up some samples. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] menu layout
On Wed, May 20, 2015, at 03:24 PM, Len Ovens wrote: On Wed, 20 May 2015, Set Hallstrom wrote: Would it be possible to introduce text in the separation? That would both reduce mouse navigation and guide the user That would be non-standard and therefore not supported in most (any?) DEs. I thought of it once before :) There is however, an inline menu layout option. There is also an inline_limit= option. So a sub menu could be inline if there are only 4 (for example) items in the menu and become a submenu if there are more. The inline submenu can have the menu name at the top of the inlined items. I think I need to try making up some samples. This would be very cool. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Menu Layout
Hi Len, No problems with the rant. It summed up the issues pretty well for me. I need to set up my US development VM again and play around with different DE's and the menu to understand better (and catch up with you). Last night I took a little look at your work on the menu in Launchpad. On 19 May 2015 at 01:37 Len Ovens l...@ovenwerks.net wrote: [...] Ok, so how does that apply here? Are you saying remove all audio submenus? Don't add more? The categories in the application desktop files do not follow anything worth while. Getting them fixed may be possible for some applications, but often they are not technically wrong. It is why we have had a custom menu from the beginning. To bring some order to where there was none. I would suggest that one of the reasons menus are being abandoned in many DEs, is that the standard is broken/not followed and the standardized menu is a mess. I have filed the same bug report with 4 or 5 different DEs where their menu definition does not follow the standard or meet with the intent of the standard. One of them agreed and the rest decided it was not broken won't fix. So KDE (which was right from the beginning) and xubuntu are correct. lxde, xfce, gnome past and present etc. do not allow the user to be able to reorder the look and feel of their menu as they should be able to. If you want something done right... you have to do it yourself... appears to be where this one sits. Personally, I would prefer to work with the standard as far as possible, even if it means carrying patches in Ubuntu and pushing them upstream to Debian, and further to the projects. But this is the long game, and I feel your pain (having experienced non-responsive/slow/resistive upstreams in other areas). If I am to make any changes. I need specifics, not vague comments with no direction. That is why I proposed using a format like above, A diff kind of format. The reason for putting it here is that others can see it, tell me it is wrong (and where) and what the better way would be. I am quite good at manipulating menus in a way that works with different DEs. Maybe not so good at knowing what the best layout is. [...] I think it is fine to carry on with our menu in the medium term. And maybe you are right, that our menu stub will win out in the end. But I was kind of hoping that working on an ideal structure would map reasonably well to all approaches. I was hoping we would end up with a good place for each default application in our menu, and then patching the desktop file to match it as best as we can within the constraints. WIth Set's work on the video/publishing categories, we should soon be in a place to try and present it all in some sort of table? Cheers, Ross-- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Menu Layout
.. you have to do it yourself... appears to be where this one sits. Personally, I would prefer to work with the standard as far as possible, even if it means carrying patches in Ubuntu and pushing them upstream to Debian, and further to the projects. But this is the long game, and I feel your pain (having experienced non-responsive/slow/resistive upstreams in other areas). This is my opinion, and experience as well. We should first aim at using standards, and when they don't work, we work on improving them upstream. I don't see a problem with using non standard menu categories, as long as the categories we create are things we feel should be universal standards, and that we at least aim at making them standardized upstream. If I am to make any changes. I need specifics, not vague comments with no direction. That is why I proposed using a format like above, A diff kind of format. The reason for putting it here is that others can see it, tell me it is wrong (and where) and what the better way would be. I am quite good at manipulating menus in a way that works with different DEs. Maybe not so good at knowing what the best layout is. [...] I think it is fine to carry on with our menu in the medium term. And maybe you are right, that our menu stub will win out in the end. But I was kind of hoping that working on an ideal structure would map reasonably well to all approaches. I was hoping we would end up with a good place for each default application in our menu, and then patching the desktop file to match it as best as we can within the constraints. WIth Set's work on the video/publishing categories, we should soon be in a place to try and present it all in some sort of table? Let's map out the structure for the menu in a wiki. I'll post a link here later. Once we agree on the structure, we can implement it in the source. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Menu Layout
On Tue, May 19, 2015, at 12:50 PM, Kaj Ailomaa wrote: Oh, and I understand if this seems like a big leap away from things that have been discussed from a certain perspective, but in another, it is just a big leap away from the old menu towards a new menu - based on all that has been said, and also the desire to adhere to standards. A freedesktop extra category does not need to be sub-category in a menu. So, we can always move around stuff later. You can see all the freedesktop categories here: http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html Our work on improving them is done here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FreedesktopCategories Also, this discussion seems to go beyond re-arranging the menu, and towards redefining the whole concept of workflows. Set suggested we go from 5 down to 2 - audio and visual. Following the freedesktop standards, we are now down to 3 instead. Doesn't seem like video can easily be put under graphics, since it is really a fusion of audio/graphics. There's nothing about development in there yet, as also was suggested. Stuff like puredata, supercollider, or web design. Where should this go? -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Menu Layout
Oh, and I understand if this seems like a big leap away from things that have been discussed from a certain perspective, but in another, it is just a big leap away from the old menu towards a new menu - based on all that has been said, and also the desire to adhere to standards. A freedesktop extra category does not need to be sub-category in a menu. So, we can always move around stuff later. You can see all the freedesktop categories here: http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html Our work on improving them is done here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FreedesktopCategories -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Menu Layout
Here's the feature definition page for ubuntustudio-menu https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/UbuntuStudioMenu In the proposal for the 15.10 menu.. REMOVALS: * Audio Tools was removed from the video category, as agreed CHANGES: * I renamed sub-category audio processing to effects, which seemed like a more common name (I think Len already suggested this as well) * I renamed sub-category sound generators to instruments, for the same reason * Photography was moved to be a sub-category to graphics, which is more in line with freedesktop categorization * Publishing was moved to be a sub-category to grahics, for the same reason ADDITIONS: * Audio Utlities was suggested by Len - Not a freedesktop category ( I would also like to see which desktop files will go in there) * 2DGraphics was proposed by Set, and is also a freedesktop category. Added as a sub-category to graphics * 3DGraphics, same story * I also added scanning to graphics, as it is a freedesktop category, and it felt right to have it there All but three categories are standard freedesktop categories. Our menu, however, is not using those to populate the menu, but at least we're on the right track if we want to align with freedesktop categorization. Why I don't want to add categories sequencer, recorder to the main category audio, all though they are freedesktop categories is simply because very few applications are only doing those things. Perhaps if we add a category for DAW, it would also make more sense to use sequencer and recorder for applications that are not DAWs in the same fashion. Video is not regarded as a big category for some reason. There are no sub categories for that, other than perhaps recorder and player, which are the same for both audio and video. Do we need more categories here? Categories are fine, but they also need to fill a practical purpose. If only one desktop file in all of Ubuntu repo ends up in a subcategory, there is probably no reason to have it in our menu - that is what the main categories are for. That said, it's probably better we add more than less, and then judge by the result which can be removed later. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Menu Layout
On Tue, 19 May 2015, Kaj Ailomaa wrote: Here's the feature definition page for ubuntustudio-menu https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/UbuntuStudioMenu Thank you In the proposal for the 15.10 menu.. CHANGES: * I renamed sub-category audio processing to effects, which seemed like a more common name (I think Len already suggested this as well) * I renamed sub-category sound generators to instruments, for the same reason OK * Photography was moved to be a sub-category to graphics, which is more in line with freedesktop categorization While this makes sense. If photography is made a sub menu of graphics then someone working in photography will have to go to a sub menu for almost everything. So putting photography in graphics to me means a merge rather than a sub menu. * Publishing was moved to be a sub-category to grahics, for the same reason Again this makes sense except for the other suggestion of putting CD/DVD authoring tools in with publishing then might make these tools hard to find. ADDITIONS: * Audio Utlities was suggested by Len - Not a freedesktop category ( I would also like to see which desktop files will go in there) It would probably include a lot of what is in mixers now and possibly that is the submenu/categories that need work. A working mixer such as non-mixer or idjc or mixxx do not really need a submenu/category. But ALSA controls for various cards might make more sense. So maybe our mixers sub menu is named wrong. Why I don't want to add categories sequencer, recorder to the main category audio, all though they are freedesktop categories is simply because very few applications are only doing those things. Perhaps if we add a category for DAW, it would also make more sense to use sequencer and recorder for applications that are not DAWs in the same fashion. At least two DAWs are using AudioEditer now. Video is not regarded as a big category for some reason. There are no sub categories for that, other than perhaps recorder and player, which are the same for both audio and video. Do we need more categories here? Categories are fine, but they also need to fill a practical purpose. If only one desktop file in all of Ubuntu repo ends up in a subcategory, there is probably no reason to have it in our menu - that is what the main categories are for. That said, it's probably better we add more than less, and then judge by the result which can be removed later. I agree, we don't need lots of categories, but a split between creation and playback/viewing would be very nice. Also, a solid split between audio and video. The practical purpose in the end is to be able to organize things so that not too many applications end up in one menu. So far Audio seems to be the worst one for too many applications. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Menu Layout
The proposed new submenus https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/UbuntuStudioMenu are a lot clearer than the 15.04 submenus. On 5/19/2015 at 9:08 AM, Set Hallström sakrec...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, First things first: Len, i think you have very good points and it's obviously passion not ranting :) Your goal is honorable, i really hope for the same turn out as you. I must say this discussion is a bit confusing to me, 3 things come out to me: - We want to follow the freedesktop standard, - We all seem to agree freedesktop isn't flexible enough our case... - we have actually been breaking the standard for a long time... Having this written, Kaj: Excellent job on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/UbuntuStudi oMenu It's clean and purposeful. Putting publishing under graphics is a tricky move, but it makes sense in many ways. I wonder if brasero would fit there like that. Brasero is obviously a home-publishing tool. but it's not very much of a graphic application. Perhaps it's ok to have it repeating itself in the various wrokflows? Like Kaj states in the last message before mine, we are redefining the hole workflow concept here, unless we take a stance for having a menu that isn't reflecting the workflow concept. Which i think will create confusion on the long run. I remember being told that we could rework those workflows, but that it would be feasible for later versions like 16.04... Is this really a goal for 15.10? Blueprint deadline is dangerously close to now. What about that indicator solution (i'm sorry, i have forgotten who brought it up on the IRC channel) for integrating the ubustu menu in other DE's? Looking forward to read you all, -- Set Hallström -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Menu Layout
On Tue, 19 May 2015, lukefro...@hushmail.com wrote: Speaking of Debian, the US menus work just fine in upstream Debian Unstable. My main systems have been converted to that due to worries about the Snappy situation. Thus, I can test US packages in upstream Debian Unstable without setting up a new OS partition. It should. I tested it with everything I could find... even a script to convert xdg menus to fvwm menus... The only thing that may not work is getting the nice layout in the root menu where we have our workflows grouped together at the top (there is a bug in most standard menu config files). But other than that it should just work. In fact, I think that putting studio.menu (from /etc/xdg/menus/applications-merged/) in ~/.config/menus/ would work for the user in question (not system wide) just as well. I do feel that I could split studio.menu into more than one file so that just one workflow could be used. That is someone who is just using the Graphics workflow might be just as happy with all audio apps in multimedia for example. Then again it is just a quick thought off the top of my head and perhaps doesn't really make sense. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Menu Layout
On Wed, May 20, 2015, at 12:08 AM, Kaj Ailomaa wrote: On Tue, May 19, 2015, at 03:08 PM, Set Hallström wrote: Hi all, First things first: Len, i think you have very good points and it's obviously passion not ranting :) Your goal is honorable, i really hope for the same turn out as you. I must say this discussion is a bit confusing to me, 3 things come out to me: - We want to follow the freedesktop standard, - We all seem to agree freedesktop isn't flexible enough our case... - we have actually been breaking the standard for a long time... We haven't been breaking the standard very much, actually. And, the two categories that were not standards are aimed at becoming standards, so in this way the menu has actually been quite aligned with freedesktop categories. ..at least as far as the categories go. What we put in the menus is a different thing. Since we do not populate the menu based on what is in the desktop files, there are many errors. Also, many desktop files are not complete. This is the work we should do upstream - to make sure all multimedia desktop files have correct categories, and that we can use those to create our menu. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Menu Layout
On Tue, May 19, 2015, at 03:08 PM, Set Hallström wrote: Hi all, First things first: Len, i think you have very good points and it's obviously passion not ranting :) Your goal is honorable, i really hope for the same turn out as you. I must say this discussion is a bit confusing to me, 3 things come out to me: - We want to follow the freedesktop standard, - We all seem to agree freedesktop isn't flexible enough our case... - we have actually been breaking the standard for a long time... We haven't been breaking the standard very much, actually. And, the two categories that were not standards are aimed at becoming standards, so in this way the menu has actually been quite aligned with freedesktop categories. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Menu Layout
On 05/19/2015 07:20 PM, lukefro...@hushmail.com wrote: The proposed new submenus https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/UbuntuStudioMenu are a lot clearer than the 15.04 submenus. Yes - great work Kai. Regarding your comment earlier in the thread, I think a development item sounds fine for pd, csound, supercollider etc. In the Debian multimedia blends system, they appear in sound synthesis task which always seems a bit strange to me. Web Design could be publishing? Cheers, Ross -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Menu Layout
On Sun, May 17, 2015, at 06:02 PM, Len Ovens wrote: Hmm, conversation on menu layout seems to have stopped. However nothing seems to have been done ;) So, I am restarting it. Currently we have: 8-- Audio Production extra SW installer Mixers (submenu) Sound Generators (submenu) Effects (submenu) Midi Utilities (submenu) utilities (inline) applications Graphics Design Photography Video Production Audio Tools (submenu) Publishing ---8-- We are probably not going to change the Audio menu by much, but for example: 8-- Audio Production extra SW installer Mixers (submenu) Sound Generators (submenu) Effects (submenu) Midi Utilities (submenu) + Measurement (submenu) + meters + frequency graphs + Audio Utilities (submenu) + low use utilities utilities (inline) + high use utilities - low use utilities applications Graphics Design Photography Video Production Audio Tools (submenu) Publishing ---8-- I think the important thing here is to not add categories in the menu that are not either a freedesktop category, or a combination of more than one. Let's not add stuff to our liking on a whim, but make sure we keep to standards as far as possible, so we do not confuse the user with categories that are not found in other places. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Menu Layout
Good Move, Len! :) I think the audio menu is optimal like you depicted it. However, the graphics, photo, video and publishing need a little moving arround. I don't think it's necessary to have submenus like in the audio in these, except maybe for the video where a subdivison into advanced basic editor was suggested in the blueprint discussion. But here's what i think: -_Graphics_ Missing the font manager rest is nice as is -_photo_ Which raw developer should stay? I vote for darktable. Shotwell, is a mess in my experience. Thunar+image viewer makes the jobb better. (does ristretto work nowadays) Importing large libraries to shotwell makes it crash, and it handöes photos much like iPhoto: tends to want to decide how and where fotos will be stored for you. Everything else is perfect as is. -_video_ Brasero and DVD styler should be moved to _publishing_, audio submenu should be removed -_publishing_ Is missing Brasero and DVD styler Why is fontmanager here? Should move to graphics. Everything else is perfect as is. Yours, -- Set Hallstrom -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Menu Layout
On Sun, 17 May 2015, Set Hallstrom wrote: I think the audio menu is optimal like you depicted it. However, the graphics, photo, video and publishing need a little moving arround. I don't think it's necessary to have submenus like in the audio in these, except maybe for the video where a subdivison into advanced basic editor was suggested in the blueprint discussion. But here's what i think: -_Graphics_ Missing the font manager rest is nice as is I can fix that. -_photo_ Which raw developer should stay? I vote for darktable. Shotwell, is a mess in my experience. Thunar+image viewer makes the jobb Shotwell is the default desktop photo viewer. I do not know if it is in our meta or ends up in there by default. I agree it could be removed even if we have to blacklist it to do so. better. (does ristretto work nowadays) Importing large libraries to ristretto is there, as far as I can tell (14.04 on my desktop) but does not show on our menu or with xfce's Application Finder... but if I double click on a *.jpg (for example) it is opened with Image Viewer and the about box says it is ristretto 0.6.3. Our menu file says not to show it in the Graphics Design menu, or Publishing... it is not mentioned else where so I would guess it needs to be put in photography menu (where it is not listed right now). I use it all the time and it starts fast and doesn't seem to crash or cause other problems. I should add it to the photography menu?, accessories menu?, graphics menu? It is not really a photograph viewer so much as a general image viewer. -_video_ Brasero and DVD styler should be moved to _publishing_, audio submenu should be removed I think also that ardour (along with xjadeo) are becoming the goto for adding audio to video rather than audacity. -_publishing_ Is missing Brasero and DVD styler Why is fontmanager here? Should move to graphics. Because I (I put it there, yes) just thought font - used for making text documents. When we first started the publishing workflow we were thinking making books (ebooks for example) or web pages (even though we do not include a web publishing tool). You are thinking in terms of fonts (especially fancy fonts) being used as part of a graphic. Probably correct. As we have stated we haven't really had people who thought in graphics terms till now. So for those who are following this, the changes suggested are: - Remove Shotwell - Show Image Viewer/Ristretto in menu (not sure where, graphics or photography or both) - Move Font managing/creation tools to graphics. - Rethink Pubishing as a workflow and move CD/DVD creation tools there. I would also like to add an audio utillities submenu to Audio Production for japa, jaaa, meters, scopes and a tuner application (which I think we should include). Audio applications that users are likey to add (Rosegarden, Bitwig, non*, tracktion) should be preplaced in the right menu. Also Categories like AudioEditing, which by the way pulls in Ardour binaries DL from the Ardour site and Tracktion without listing them in the studio.menu file. Recorder could be audio or video but we may be able to look for one or the other as well. So why does mhwaveedit show itself in the AudioVideoEditing category? It has no video editing at all. I would love to point people at it as a jack based audio recorder/editor over audacity... but the GUI needs work. Record should be easily visible rather than an option in the play menu :P Audacity does have some non-RT tools that nothing else does though. (even though it's jack interface is painful to use and won't be fixed) -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
