Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
On 10/02/2009 12:39, Lucy wrote: > It's saying 'primary operating system' not only operating system. > Also, there's more than one FOSS OS (and even more UIs). > > By getting FOSS into schools you are getting rid of the current > monopoly, you are telling the kids that it's okay to learn about the > systems, that it's okay to share interesting programs with friends or > to take a copy home to finish up some homework. You're enabling them > to reuse old PCs. You're showing them that they can be a part of a > global community and that they have the power and opportunity to > collaborate with others to make things better. > > I think part of the general problem that that a lot of people think that sharing software is wrong as it's been drummed into them for so long. At least the community are slowly getting the message through, even if it is only to a minory of people. I found that the Exwick Community Centre open day was a great place to talk to people about Free Software. The visitors could see the software running, they could see that it's not all scary command lines (although one guy did like the command line as he was an ex-COBOL programmer and was used to the old dumb terminals) and they could take away a disc for free to try and home. They were pre-pressed Ubuntu 8.04 CDs so they looked like they were legitimate an IIRC they said on the disc that they were free to use and pass on. Slowly we were getting the message across that you don't have to pay mega bucks to get software, there is all this quality free software available that not only doesn't cost owt, it is also free to share (and if so, free to tinker with). A few of the visitors were low income families and single parents. One woman I talked to had a PC but didn't have broadband. I got the impression that she'd like to learn how to do things like Word Processing and general internet and office tasks, even if it was just something to do but couldn't afford the high prices of the software (even £100 for Office 2007 isn't that cheap when you are on a low income and don't have a powerful enough PC to run it). She took an Ubuntu CD and my phone number and I also took her number and said that I would ask about running some OpenOffice training courses at the centre. Rob -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
Hey Guys, I have been running with this conversation and what a topic it has become. unless I am mistaken this is a scenerio if it is not broke dont fix it. As much as I am an avid Linux fan I do believe that the both technologies can co-exist. Microsoft has had the added advantage of being at the forefront of IT and the vast number of user it now holds. But lets not be mistaken about the amount of users that are on the rise for linux. But looking at the back bone of the 2 systems. If I was the man in charge I would put forward Microsoft has the main infrastructure due to its support capability and the ability to acquire staff to support the OS. There a lot of issues with linux and this is where it falls down. This puts a heavy administrative over head on the budget. I think they key thing is here is seeing the wood from trees. Yes, linux is good and ubuntu is very user friendly but you will loose everytime if you go and speak to the end users they will not be responsive to the system. There are arguments that we can go into detail about but I think due to the credit crunch hitting IT managers and directors and industries like NHS and education should be considering How can we make the two technologies co-exist? Although this maybe rendering the open source policy but I believe that this is what should be done. Kind Regards, Jai 2009/2/10 Lucy > 2009/2/10 Sean Miller : > > And that's why I think this petition is flawed, because it won't > > succeed whilst it's worded as it is. This thread has the wrong > > name... it's not a case of getting Windows out of schools, it's a case > > of getting a mixture of computer architectures into schools and > > ensuring that education isn't based on any particular platform. > > > > "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the primary > > operating system used in state schools free and open source" > > > > Why?? Why is that not JUST as bad as Windows? > > > > That's why I will not be signing this petition - because it's missing > > the point. It would be wrong to stop children experiencing Windows > > because, like it or not, at the moment that is most likely to be the > > OS that they will encounter when they start work.But that should > > not be the ONLY thing they experience. And, as I've said above, they > > should not be told "to write a document you open Word and click on..." > > but rather "word processors are used to write documents, and come in > > many forms" and then given principles not specifics. > > It's saying 'primary operating system' not only operating system. > Also, there's more than one FOSS OS (and even more UIs). > > By getting FOSS into schools you are getting rid of the current > monopoly, you are telling the kids that it's okay to learn about the > systems, that it's okay to share interesting programs with friends or > to take a copy home to finish up some homework. You're enabling them > to reuse old PCs. You're showing them that they can be a part of a > global community and that they have the power and opportunity to > collaborate with others to make things better. > > That's why I signed the petition anyway. Maybe I missed the point and > it's just about MS-bashing instead. > > -- > ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ > -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
2009/2/10 Sean Miller : > And that's why I think this petition is flawed, because it won't > succeed whilst it's worded as it is. This thread has the wrong > name... it's not a case of getting Windows out of schools, it's a case > of getting a mixture of computer architectures into schools and > ensuring that education isn't based on any particular platform. > > "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the primary > operating system used in state schools free and open source" > > Why?? Why is that not JUST as bad as Windows? > > That's why I will not be signing this petition - because it's missing > the point. It would be wrong to stop children experiencing Windows > because, like it or not, at the moment that is most likely to be the > OS that they will encounter when they start work.But that should > not be the ONLY thing they experience. And, as I've said above, they > should not be told "to write a document you open Word and click on..." > but rather "word processors are used to write documents, and come in > many forms" and then given principles not specifics. It's saying 'primary operating system' not only operating system. Also, there's more than one FOSS OS (and even more UIs). By getting FOSS into schools you are getting rid of the current monopoly, you are telling the kids that it's okay to learn about the systems, that it's okay to share interesting programs with friends or to take a copy home to finish up some homework. You're enabling them to reuse old PCs. You're showing them that they can be a part of a global community and that they have the power and opportunity to collaborate with others to make things better. That's why I signed the petition anyway. Maybe I missed the point and it's just about MS-bashing instead. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
On 10/02/2009 00:18, David King wrote: > I signed the petition as well. > > I am thinking that the schools'/education system's thinking is a bit out > of date. Why teach the children just one OS when there are many choices > now in the real world? Not all companies use the same OS. Some use > Windows XP, some use Windows Vista, and on servers they have Windows > Server. And sometimes even earlier versions of Windows. Plus some use > Mac OS X or earlier Mac OS versions. And some use Linux, including in > many places on servers. So limiting children's education to just one OS > will leave them greatly disadvantaged when they reach the real world. > Especially as whatever system they are taught in their early school > years may well be completely obsolete by the time they become adults. > That's true, when I was at school we had Windows 3.0 and Word 1.0, how things have changed. I get lost on Office 2007 even though I can quite comfortably find my way around Office 2003. At my kids school they have Windows XP and Office 2003 so if my kids were introduced to Office 2007 they wouldn't know where ot start. > If I had children, I would encourage them to experiment with different > operating systems and tell them that they need to learn a variety in > order to be better prepared for the future. Just as it is worthwhile for > children to learn more than one language, although the way languages are > taught is probably really nowhere near good enough. I learnt French and > German at school but cannot fluently use either. In computing, I learnt > the BBC Micro, with its card reader. I wrote programs in BASIC and > transferred those to filling in boxes for each character on special > cards which went into the card reader to feed the program into the > computer. By the time I left school and went to university such systems > were obsolete and I used a PC with DOS. Now DOS is obsolete, and so on. > > My kids PC is running Ubuntu 8.10, as long as they have been using a PC at home they have been using Ubuntu. They use Windows XP at school (and on their mum's PC) and they can get on well with both. At the moment they have been tinkering with Google Earth and Tuxpaint. I have also recently given them access to Firefox (albeit running through DansGuardian and with me sat helping them). Today I started telloing them about Logo, I'm hoping that I can introduce them to it at an early age so they get more interested and then hopefully maybe introduce them to Basic (maybe using Gambas). I doubt they'd be introduced to Logo at Primary School, more likely Secondary School if they're lucky. It seems to me that these days the kids who are only exposed to Windows and proprietory softare are at a disadvantage. It's not like the olden days when you had something like Basic built into your computer so you could start tinkering, at least with FLOSS (on Linux, Mac or Windows) you can get the software for free and start playing. Rob > It is far better to teach the children the fundamentals of computing, > and how to use any computer system regardless of which interface is > used, so that in the future, when it is all different, they will still > be able to use a computer. > > > David King > > > Paul Sutton wrote: > >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> Aparently primnary schools are forced to use MS office so the children >> are ready for what is used in Secondary schools which is I guess a fair >> argument i guess. And i guess secondaries feel obliged to use MS office >> as they see it as "industry standard." >> >> However looking at what happen at the exwick community centre where they >> children/ Young people and adults there seemed to have little problem >> finding their way around ubuntu (which looks a lot different to >> windows), it proves that the children would have no problems going from >> say open office to Ms office in the secondary school, ( I am only going >> from what has been said in the e-mails since) >> >> I am not an expert, but it seems no matter what justification people try >> and use for using Windows, there is a way round it, Kids / young people >> can simply adapt, I am 33 and having used KDE for years, installed >> ubuntu (using gnome) had no problem with it, ok it take a while to find >> what I need, but I have 3 menus, applications, places, adn system, so >> its pretty obvious what each one is for, >> >> When we have more write ups, we should have more observations and >> evidence to back the above up, >> >> Paul >> >> >> David King wrote: >> >> >>> The other way to get windows out of schools is to remove the glass and >>> replace with bricks :-) >>> >>> David King >>> >>> >>> Vinothan Shankar wrote: >>> >>> I've created a petition to the Prime Minister to make the primary OS in schools free and open source - it can be found at http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/nonMSschools. To anyone that points out I should h
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools (UK Marketing!)
sounds a good plan, I can drop em an e-mail and ask nd see if they publish it, if others do the same then perhaps they can indicate some level of interest in the south west. Paul > I think you'd have more luck with MicroMart as they seem to target the > demographic who go to computer fairs (at least they used to). > > Rob > > > -- > ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ > -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 12:18 AM, David King wrote: > It is far better to teach the children the fundamentals of computing, > and how to use any computer system regardless of which interface is > used, so that in the future, when it is all different, they will still > be able to use a computer. I think that's the key they should be teaching the fundamentals of computing, not any particular package or operating system. And that's why I think this petition is flawed, because it won't succeed whilst it's worded as it is. This thread has the wrong name... it's not a case of getting Windows out of schools, it's a case of getting a mixture of computer architectures into schools and ensuring that education isn't based on any particular platform. "We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source" Why?? Why is that not JUST as bad as Windows? That's why I will not be signing this petition - because it's missing the point. It would be wrong to stop children experiencing Windows because, like it or not, at the moment that is most likely to be the OS that they will encounter when they start work.But that should not be the ONLY thing they experience. And, as I've said above, they should not be told "to write a document you open Word and click on..." but rather "word processors are used to write documents, and come in many forms" and then given principles not specifics. My school, when I was doing my 'a' levels, used those funny Amstrad PC things with their 3" disks etc. - that didn't stop me using word processors or spreadsheets on other platforms. Not sure what operating system they ran but it definitely wasn't Windows or CP-M (which the CPC word processor things ran, from memory). Sean -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools (UK Marketing!)
On 09/02/2009 19:53, Paul Sutton wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > > >> I just wish there were computer fairs down here in Devon, there used to >> be one a few years back but nothing like that now, the nearest thing is >> a car boot sale. I wonder actually if we'd be able to give away Ubuntu >> CDs at car boot sales without trading standards thinking we were giving >> away pirate software? (they don'#t seem to do much about the pirate DVD >> sellers at least). >> > > > Yes, my 3 page flyer, well 3 separate flyers stapled together, if you > gave people one of these with the cd; it would show that the cd is fully > legal and you are not breaking the law by giving copies away. > > There HAS to be a way of getting some sort of computer fair back in devon, > > Perhaps we can construct a letter to one of the big computer mags (pcw > for example) and ask for some, or simply contact a few organsisers and > ask em to bring a fair down, > I think you'd have more luck with MicroMart as they seem to target the demographic who go to computer fairs (at least they used to). Rob -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
I signed the petition as well. I am thinking that the schools'/education system's thinking is a bit out of date. Why teach the children just one OS when there are many choices now in the real world? Not all companies use the same OS. Some use Windows XP, some use Windows Vista, and on servers they have Windows Server. And sometimes even earlier versions of Windows. Plus some use Mac OS X or earlier Mac OS versions. And some use Linux, including in many places on servers. So limiting children's education to just one OS will leave them greatly disadvantaged when they reach the real world. Especially as whatever system they are taught in their early school years may well be completely obsolete by the time they become adults. If I had children, I would encourage them to experiment with different operating systems and tell them that they need to learn a variety in order to be better prepared for the future. Just as it is worthwhile for children to learn more than one language, although the way languages are taught is probably really nowhere near good enough. I learnt French and German at school but cannot fluently use either. In computing, I learnt the BBC Micro, with its card reader. I wrote programs in BASIC and transferred those to filling in boxes for each character on special cards which went into the card reader to feed the program into the computer. By the time I left school and went to university such systems were obsolete and I used a PC with DOS. Now DOS is obsolete, and so on. It is far better to teach the children the fundamentals of computing, and how to use any computer system regardless of which interface is used, so that in the future, when it is all different, they will still be able to use a computer. David King Paul Sutton wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Aparently primnary schools are forced to use MS office so the children > are ready for what is used in Secondary schools which is I guess a fair > argument i guess. And i guess secondaries feel obliged to use MS office > as they see it as "industry standard." > > However looking at what happen at the exwick community centre where they > children/ Young people and adults there seemed to have little problem > finding their way around ubuntu (which looks a lot different to > windows), it proves that the children would have no problems going from > say open office to Ms office in the secondary school, ( I am only going > from what has been said in the e-mails since) > > I am not an expert, but it seems no matter what justification people try > and use for using Windows, there is a way round it, Kids / young people > can simply adapt, I am 33 and having used KDE for years, installed > ubuntu (using gnome) had no problem with it, ok it take a while to find > what I need, but I have 3 menus, applications, places, adn system, so > its pretty obvious what each one is for, > > When we have more write ups, we should have more observations and > evidence to back the above up, > > Paul > > > David King wrote: > >> The other way to get windows out of schools is to remove the glass and >> replace with bricks :-) >> >> David King >> >> >> Vinothan Shankar wrote: >> >>> I've created a petition to the Prime Minister to make the primary OS in >>> schools free and open source - it can be found at >>> http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/nonMSschools. To anyone that points >>> out I should have suggested Ubuntu for Education, the first submission >>> did, but was rejected on the grounds that it was "promoting commercial >>> products or services". The petition should probably also have pointed >>> out that schools could keep the same hardware, but petitions there are >>> restricted to 1000 characters including spaces. >>> >>> Please sign. >>> >>> > > > - -- > Paul Sutton > www.zleap.net > Support Open and ISO standard file formats ISO 26300 odf > http://www.odfalliance.org > Next Linux User Group meet : March 7th : 3pm, Shoreline Cafe Paignton > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAkmQEukACgkQaggq1k2FJq1/5wCgkUjrzWDrrYwX7PP2pTFYoUYb > z9MAn3lO7xojGrzIHxyW3qCrwlGKHRVi > =NYF3 > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools (UK Marketing!)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > I just wish there were computer fairs down here in Devon, there used to > be one a few years back but nothing like that now, the nearest thing is > a car boot sale. I wonder actually if we'd be able to give away Ubuntu > CDs at car boot sales without trading standards thinking we were giving > away pirate software? (they don'#t seem to do much about the pirate DVD > sellers at least). Yes, my 3 page flyer, well 3 separate flyers stapled together, if you gave people one of these with the cd; it would show that the cd is fully legal and you are not breaking the law by giving copies away. There HAS to be a way of getting some sort of computer fair back in devon, Perhaps we can construct a letter to one of the big computer mags (pcw for example) and ask for some, or simply contact a few organsisers and ask em to bring a fair down, Paul >> It will take at least another 10 years before that particular lad gets >> close to a position of influence in an organisation, perhaps 15 years. >> *That* is the time scale of change, and much longer if it is not >> driven hard by focussed, determined people. >> > Well hopefully he'll get a good start with FLOSS, he may even be able to > encourage his friends to switch too. The experience I had when I was at > school and college is that there were a few of us who used to really be > into computers in a geeky way (more than playing games) and we'd share > PD and shareware stuff, I guess this still happens so if they're sharing > FLOSS software then that has to be good. >> *Now* is a good time to start! >> > Yep, although I guess we may not make so much of a dent against > Microsoft and Windows 7, we might be able to target some of the possible > upgraders. > > Rob Good point, > > - -- Paul Sutton www.zleap.net Support Open and ISO standard file formats ISO 26300 odf http://www.odfalliance.org Next Linux User Group meet : March 7th : 3pm, Shoreline Cafe Paignton -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmQidUACgkQaggq1k2FJq1w+gCfd2Od0nS3XvEXFzw7/zHSxYiP pysAn1p2VWuSoXWHW2OuUixfXgk9veO3 =S3Yh -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools (UK Marketing!)
alan c wrote: > Marketing! > Marketing is the key skill with a company such as MS. It is also the > weakest point with FOSS. > > Yep, I think part of the problem is the fact that as individuals we probably don't have much money to put into marketing. In my area I've been giving out Ubuntu CDs and also copies of The OpenDisc and I know a fellow LUG member (Paul Sutton) has been doing the same in his area. > Marketing has short term obvious goals and also much longer term, > subtle, goals. The trick that MS have and probably will continue to > pull is a long term very wide game. Even huge resources such as US > national or European systems find difficulty with bringing the > monopoly wagon to heel, once it is successfully rolling along, > seemingly downhill. There has been a very successful heavy momentum > built up, a very heavy wagon, rolling downhill. > I get the feeling for every one person we encourage to move over to FLOSS there are 10 more who just get the latest pirated version of Windows from a friend. I can't help but think Microsoft are turning a blind eye to things like this which I got shot off for a friend who had it installed by a bloke in the pub... http://www.winxpu.info/ > I have believed for a long time and I still believe that the least we > can do in the UK is to have a UK list focussed on UK marketing Ubuntu. > Not a shared list, a specific and focussed list. > > If it turns out that there are not many subscribers then at least the > problem is clear to see! It can be addressed. Very few FOSS > enthusiasts are keen on marketing, and I think a UK specialist list > will get the best from what little resource we have. > I certainly agree and I would be interested in joining such a list. I guess you could say what works in one country may not work in another. > At the local Computer Fair yesterday that I am fortunate to display > at, a lad of about 10 years took a Parted Magic CD, his father was > there in support. The intended action was to resize a Windows > partition or similar, with FOSS, for FOSS. > That's good, no doubt it will have saved them £40 or so on Partition Magic. I just wish there were computer fairs down here in Devon, there used to be one a few years back but nothing like that now, the nearest thing is a car boot sale. I wonder actually if we'd be able to give away Ubuntu CDs at car boot sales without trading standards thinking we were giving away pirate software? (they don'#t seem to do much about the pirate DVD sellers at least). > It will take at least another 10 years before that particular lad gets > close to a position of influence in an organisation, perhaps 15 years. > *That* is the time scale of change, and much longer if it is not > driven hard by focussed, determined people. > Well hopefully he'll get a good start with FLOSS, he may even be able to encourage his friends to switch too. The experience I had when I was at school and college is that there were a few of us who used to really be into computers in a geeky way (more than playing games) and we'd share PD and shareware stuff, I guess this still happens so if they're sharing FLOSS software then that has to be good. > *Now* is a good time to start! > Yep, although I guess we may not make so much of a dent against Microsoft and Windows 7, we might be able to target some of the possible upgraders. Rob -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
2009/2/8 Vinothan Shankar : > I've created a petition to the Prime Minister to make the primary OS in > schools free and open source - it can be found at > http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/nonMSschools. To anyone that points > out I should have suggested Ubuntu for Education, the first submission > did, but was rejected on the grounds that it was "promoting commercial > products or services". The petition should probably also have pointed > out that schools could keep the same hardware, but petitions there are > restricted to 1000 characters including spaces. > This has been discussed heavily elsewhere including on the BBC Backstage mailing list. http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html For those not on it the thread is archived here:- http://www.mail-archive.com/backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk/msg10515.html One particular mail which caught my eye:- http://www.mail-archive.com/backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk/msg10518.html Cheers, Al. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools (UK Marketing!)
Imho, a great place to advertise would be the morning star newspaper: http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk Its socialist/communist, so it would be good targeted advertising (since socialism/communism=no to capitalism eg big companies like Microsoft) The circulations not bad at about 50,000 copies sold per day, compared to the guardians 350,000 Advertising rate are (quote the contact us page) "from £1.42 plus VAT per line or £5.17 plus VAT per column centrimetre." Ie a reasonable sized ad would probably be about 25 quid, towards which i wouldnt mind contributing 2009/2/9 alan c : > Paul Sutton wrote: >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> You could probably go with having MS on the admin network, then Linux or >> fre softare on the academic network, >> >> eventually people will filter through who can and want to use >> alternatives, then chance will come >> >> problem is MS seem to have a huge marketing budget, and are > > Marketing! > Marketing is the key skill with a company such as MS. It is also the > weakest point with FOSS. > > Marketing has short term obvious goals and also much longer term, > subtle, goals. The trick that MS have and probably will continue to > pull is a long term very wide game. Even huge resources such as US > national or European systems find difficulty with bringing the > monopoly wagon to heel, once it is successfully rolling along, > seemingly downhill. There has been a very successful heavy momentum > built up, a very heavy wagon, rolling downhill. > > I have believed for a long time and I still believe that the least we > can do in the UK is to have a UK list focussed on UK marketing Ubuntu. > Not a shared list, a specific and focussed list. > > If it turns out that there are not many subscribers then at least the > problem is clear to see! It can be addressed. Very few FOSS > enthusiasts are keen on marketing, and I think a UK specialist list > will get the best from what little resource we have. > > At the local Computer Fair yesterday that I am fortunate to display > at, a lad of about 10 years took a Parted Magic CD, his father was > there in support. The intended action was to resize a Windows > partition or similar, with FOSS, for FOSS. > > It will take at least another 10 years before that particular lad gets > close to a position of influence in an organisation, perhaps 15 years. > *That* is the time scale of change, and much longer if it is not > driven hard by focussed, determined people. > > *Now* is a good time to start! > -- > alan cocks > Ubuntu user #10391 > Linux user #360648 > > -- > ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ > -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools (UK Marketing!)
Paul Sutton wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > You could probably go with having MS on the admin network, then Linux or > fre softare on the academic network, > > eventually people will filter through who can and want to use > alternatives, then chance will come > > problem is MS seem to have a huge marketing budget, and are Marketing! Marketing is the key skill with a company such as MS. It is also the weakest point with FOSS. Marketing has short term obvious goals and also much longer term, subtle, goals. The trick that MS have and probably will continue to pull is a long term very wide game. Even huge resources such as US national or European systems find difficulty with bringing the monopoly wagon to heel, once it is successfully rolling along, seemingly downhill. There has been a very successful heavy momentum built up, a very heavy wagon, rolling downhill. I have believed for a long time and I still believe that the least we can do in the UK is to have a UK list focussed on UK marketing Ubuntu. Not a shared list, a specific and focussed list. If it turns out that there are not many subscribers then at least the problem is clear to see! It can be addressed. Very few FOSS enthusiasts are keen on marketing, and I think a UK specialist list will get the best from what little resource we have. At the local Computer Fair yesterday that I am fortunate to display at, a lad of about 10 years took a Parted Magic CD, his father was there in support. The intended action was to resize a Windows partition or similar, with FOSS, for FOSS. It will take at least another 10 years before that particular lad gets close to a position of influence in an organisation, perhaps 15 years. *That* is the time scale of change, and much longer if it is not driven hard by focussed, determined people. *Now* is a good time to start! -- alan cocks Ubuntu user #10391 Linux user #360648 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
I did the European Driving License a few years ago and there was no mention of open source alternatives. I didn't know about it untill a friend told me about Linux because soloey because me Microslop PC was broken and had to buy another copy of XP to fix it. This I couldn't afford. Rik Boland 15 Stanley Place, Lancaster, LA1 5PN Mobile 07866439588 We need Justice but we also need Grace and Mercy from God to do this. --- On Mon, 9/2/09, alan c wrote: From: alan c Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools To: "British Ubuntu Talk" Date: Monday, 9 February, 2009, 6:32 PM Harry Rickards wrote: > Someone I know who goes to a CLAIT course was told that an Operating System > meant Windows, no mention of Linux or Mac OSX, and that an application was > simply either an MS Office App or IE, again do mention of OpenOffice or > Firefox. Maybe the instructors don't even know alternatives to MS software > exist? How are they going to get told? -- alan cocks Ubuntu user #10391 Linux user #360648 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
Harry Rickards wrote: > Someone I know who goes to a CLAIT course was told that an Operating System > meant Windows, no mention of Linux or Mac OSX, and that an application was > simply either an MS Office App or IE, again do mention of OpenOffice or > Firefox. Maybe the instructors don't even know alternatives to MS software > exist? How are they going to get told? -- alan cocks Ubuntu user #10391 Linux user #360648 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
That style letter was understandable from Microslop how ever they did forget to say that they also give free lolly pops to all the starving children in the developing countries that they advertise there products Rik Boland 15 Stanley Place, Lancaster, LA1 5PN Mobile 07866439588 We need Justice but we also need Grace and Mercy from God to do this. --- On Mon, 9/2/09, Andrew Oakley wrote: From: Andrew Oakley Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools To: "British Ubuntu Talk" Date: Monday, 9 February, 2009, 6:06 PM LeeGroups wrote: > Andrew Oakley wrote: [MS home/academic/student licences at up to 90% discount] > > If you try to argue against Microsoft on grounds of price, > > you'll fail every time. Home users, schools, universities > > and students don't pay full rate for software. Only ... > I understand what we're saying about up front costs vs. > support costs, BUT, even at £35 for a copy of Office, and ... > That's, say, £8,000 on MS software that could have been spent on > hardware... And it's not like it's one-off cost, with the gradual I think you're missing the point. Schools and universities are, in the UK, reasonably well-funded. Below a certain point, ***price is generally not a consideration AT ALL***, regardless of whether they spend it on hardware or software or consumables. Ten thousand pounds here or there is a couple of sides of A4 grant application paperwork, not a major concern. Microsoft's academic discount simply reduces the cost so that it is "not a barrier" rather than the price being attractive in its own right. To repeat: Below a certain point, ***price is generally not a consideration AT ALL*** in the school/college IT sector. Schools and universities install Microsoft because that's what employers demand to see most often on CVs. The institution considers "can we provide training for the skills that the employers want most often" and if the answer is yes, they try to do it. The school or college makes a business case to their funding body (can you see where my job comes in here yet?). They say something like "N% of local employers are demanding $TECHNICAL_THINGY skills, it will cost us $GBP_IRRELEVANT_AMOUNT". The funding body (eg. LEA) says "Right ho, that's a good business case, here is $GBP_IRRELEVANT_AMOUNT". If the funding body can't afford it, it goes to central government and says "We have M% unemployment in our area. If you paid us $GBP_IRRELEVANT_AMOUNT then we could reduce unemployment by P%" and central government decides whether or not to cough up. It has virtually nothing to do with price and everything to do with employers' skill demands. If local businesses demand OpenOffice from schools and colleges, then it will happen. If geek dads demand OpenOffice... no effect. Andrew Oakley Head of Software Development Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) 95 Promenade, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire GL50 1HZ _ Higher Education Statistics Agency Ltd (HESA) is a company limited by guarantee, registered in England at 95 Promenade Cheltenham GL50 1HZ. Registered No. 2766993. The members are Universities UK and GuildHE. Registered Charity No. 1039709. Certified to ISO 9001 and ISO 27001. HESA Services Ltd (HSL) is a wholly owned subsidiary of HESA, registered in England at the same address. Registered No. 3109219. _ This outgoing email was virus scanned for HESA by MessageLabs. _ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
LeeGroups wrote: > Andrew Oakley wrote: [MS home/academic/student licences at up to 90% discount] > > If you try to argue against Microsoft on grounds of price, > > you'll fail every time. Home users, schools, universities > > and students don't pay full rate for software. Only ... > I understand what we're saying about up front costs vs. > support costs, BUT, even at £35 for a copy of Office, and ... > That's, say, £8,000 on MS software that could have been spent on > hardware... And it's not like it's one-off cost, with the gradual I think you're missing the point. Schools and universities are, in the UK, reasonably well-funded. Below a certain point, ***price is generally not a consideration AT ALL***, regardless of whether they spend it on hardware or software or consumables. Ten thousand pounds here or there is a couple of sides of A4 grant application paperwork, not a major concern. Microsoft's academic discount simply reduces the cost so that it is "not a barrier" rather than the price being attractive in its own right. To repeat: Below a certain point, ***price is generally not a consideration AT ALL*** in the school/college IT sector. Schools and universities install Microsoft because that's what employers demand to see most often on CVs. The institution considers "can we provide training for the skills that the employers want most often" and if the answer is yes, they try to do it. The school or college makes a business case to their funding body (can you see where my job comes in here yet?). They say something like "N% of local employers are demanding $TECHNICAL_THINGY skills, it will cost us $GBP_IRRELEVANT_AMOUNT". The funding body (eg. LEA) says "Right ho, that's a good business case, here is $GBP_IRRELEVANT_AMOUNT". If the funding body can't afford it, it goes to central government and says "We have M% unemployment in our area. If you paid us $GBP_IRRELEVANT_AMOUNT then we could reduce unemployment by P%" and central government decides whether or not to cough up. It has virtually nothing to do with price and everything to do with employers' skill demands. If local businesses demand OpenOffice from schools and colleges, then it will happen. If geek dads demand OpenOffice... no effect. Andrew Oakley Head of Software Development Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) 95 Promenade, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire GL50 1HZ _ Higher Education Statistics Agency Ltd (HESA) is a company limited by guarantee, registered in England at 95 Promenade Cheltenham GL50 1HZ. Registered No. 2766993. The members are Universities UK and GuildHE. Registered Charity No. 1039709. Certified to ISO 9001 and ISO 27001. HESA Services Ltd (HSL) is a wholly owned subsidiary of HESA, registered in England at the same address. Registered No. 3109219. _ This outgoing email was virus scanned for HESA by MessageLabs. _ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
Someone I know who goes to a CLAIT course was told that an Operating System meant Windows, no mention of Linux or Mac OSX, and that an application was simply either an MS Office App or IE, again do mention of OpenOffice or Firefox. Maybe the instructors don't even know alternatives to MS software exist? Harry Rickards On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:31:58 +, alan c wrote: > LeeGroups wrote: >>> Aparently primnary schools are forced to use MS office so the children >>> are ready for what is used in Secondary schools which is I guess a fair >>> argument i guess. And i guess secondaries feel obliged to use MS office >>> as they see it as "industry standard." >> There used to be a saying in the computer industry which was "Nobody >> ever got fired for buying IBM". >> I think it's shifted to Microsoft. Speaking from experience, most school >> "IT department heads" don't know that much about IT. >> They perceive it as a 'safe' option to go with MS, every if it costs a >> fortune, because "everyone else uses it". >> >> It's a classic circular argument... > > From the point of view of some, even careers are at stake > > I talk to my local Adult Education Centre contact, and it is obvious > to me that the person has trained on MS office stuff in detail, is all > set up for it, and delivers free MS 'advertising' by running courses > on MS products from that moment on for ever. > > When I mention Open Office to them I notice that one factor is that > they do not use it personally (at home), nor know anything in detail. > Life is busy, and they would need a strong motive to look at OO. > > There is a momentum surrounding their courses too - If their customers > were not marketed OO clearly and well, then the Learning Centre would > get no customers for non MS courses. Customers expectations, > influenced by the marketing and the retail environment, are waiting to > be changed.. > > Marketing of the Free 'Alternative to Windows' is required at all > levels to deflect the gravy train slightly away from MS, > -- > alan cocks > Ubuntu user #10391 > Linux user #360648 -- () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
>> There used to be a saying in the computer industry which was "Nobody >> ever got fired for buying IBM". >> I think it's shifted to Microsoft. Speaking from experience, >> most school "IT department heads" don't know that much about IT. >> They perceive it as a 'safe' option to go with MS, every if >> it costs a fortune, because "everyone else uses it". >> > > But it doesn't cost a forture. MS academic/home/student licences are > massive discounts. > > For example, Visual Studio 2008 Professional is 75 quid on the academic > discount scheme, compared to 475 quid normal retail. MS Office Standard > 2007 is 35 quid on academic, 270 quid normal retail. The academic > discount goes even further if you buy electronic delivery licences in > bulk from specialist academic software suppliers. > > http://www.lambda-tek.com/componentshop/index.pl?prodID=B133763 > http://www.lambda-tek.com/componentshop/index.pl?prodID=B99223 > > http://www.software4students.co.uk/Microsoft_Office_Standard_2007-detail > s.aspx > http://www.ecostsoftware.com/microsoft/microsoft-office-2007-standard_p3 > 036 > > If you try to argue against Microsoft on grounds of price, you'll fail > every time. Home users, schools, universities and students don't pay > full rate for software. Only businesses pay full rate - and they can > claim it back against tax anyway. > > The cost of licencing is peanuts to the cost of install and > maintennance. The important cost to a primary school is having to hire > IT geeks to come round and install stuff and promise to still be in > business on the end of a phone in 2 years when it goes wrong. > > A bunch of well-meaning geek dads installing OpenOffice one week, but > then being too busy in three months' time to fix an issue with a > document infected with macro malware, is of no use whatsoever to a > primary school. > > In the school sector, you need to distinguish your software by > premium-grade on-site support, compatibility with industry standards and > the applications' ability to provide CV-improving skills. > > Want to fix this problem? Two simple steps: > > 1. Get local businesses to start demanding OpenOffice as a CV skill from > job applicants. > > 2. Get schools to demand OpenOffice support from their IT support > contracts. > > ...in that order. > > Andrew, I understand what we're saying about up front costs vs. support costs, BUT, even at £35 for a copy of Office, and £25 for a CAL, for a school with 100 PC's you've just spent £6,000. That's on top of the £1,000 to £2,000 (estimated) cost of XP/Vista that was buried in the cost of the PC hardware. That's, say, £8,000 on MS software that could have been spent on hardware... And it's not like it's one-off cost, with the gradual migration to newer versions of office, server and desktop software. MS know education is the thin end of the wedge, if schools migrate en mass to Linux/OOo, the next generation of PC user won't be hooked on MS products. They know this but can't be seen to 'give it away for free', hence the 'cheaper' cost. Lee -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
LeeGroups wrote: >> Aparently primnary schools are forced to use MS office so the children >> are ready for what is used in Secondary schools which is I guess a fair >> argument i guess. And i guess secondaries feel obliged to use MS office >> as they see it as "industry standard." > There used to be a saying in the computer industry which was "Nobody > ever got fired for buying IBM". > I think it's shifted to Microsoft. Speaking from experience, most school > "IT department heads" don't know that much about IT. > They perceive it as a 'safe' option to go with MS, every if it costs a > fortune, because "everyone else uses it". > > It's a classic circular argument... From the point of view of some, even careers are at stake I talk to my local Adult Education Centre contact, and it is obvious to me that the person has trained on MS office stuff in detail, is all set up for it, and delivers free MS 'advertising' by running courses on MS products from that moment on for ever. When I mention Open Office to them I notice that one factor is that they do not use it personally (at home), nor know anything in detail. Life is busy, and they would need a strong motive to look at OO. There is a momentum surrounding their courses too - If their customers were not marketed OO clearly and well, then the Learning Centre would get no customers for non MS courses. Customers expectations, influenced by the marketing and the retail environment, are waiting to be changed.. Marketing of the Free 'Alternative to Windows' is required at all levels to deflect the gravy train slightly away from MS, -- alan cocks Ubuntu user #10391 Linux user #360648 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
Philip Stubbs wrote: > I don't think I will sign. Simply, I don't think that schools should > teach how to use MS Office or OpenOffice. What they should teach is > how to use a spreadsheet and a word processor. A selection should then > be made available and the students allowed to get a feel for different > methods. This will encourage them to realise that there is more than > one way to do it. > I agree with this, when I was at school they taught us how to do Wordprocessing, Spreadsheets and Databases on a mixture of different applications depending what computers we used (be it a BBC Micro, RM Nimbus or an Amstrad PC1512). > The bottom line is, I don't like OpenOffice being locked out and would > rather see schools use it alongside other alternatives including MS > Office and even LaTeX. > I can see the point of this, giving the kids a variety of software to use, but on the other hand how much of the school budgets which are spent on Microsoft licences could be put to much better use for instance spending the money on books or sports equipment? Rob -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 16:20:27 +, Rob Beard wrote: > Harry Rickards wrote: >> Even if school's don't solely use Windows, they usually have to use it as >> the main OS, as the AQA exam software only works with Windows, not under >> Wine; and the SIMS software uses MS Word to view files, which cannot be >> changed to OpenOffice even on Windows as it's hardcoded into the XML >> file. >> > Technically I guess you could argue that SIMS are trying to enforce a > monopoly by using MS Word to view files over just using the default > application to open .doc files (be it Word, OpenOffice, WordPerfect, > Works or even the MS Word viewer). > > Not having used SIMS software though I'm assuming Word is just used to > view/edit/print the output from SIMS rather than having any specific > macros built into the documents. > > Rob Yeah, I believe it is just used for viewing/editing/printing the output, although I think Excel may be used to display the graphs within SIMS? I've found the thread I was looking for at tr.im/sims, and it looks as though Internet Explorer as used as well, and Firefox can't be used as the XML tag is a non-standard one. Harry Rickards -- __ () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
Harry Rickards wrote: > Even if school's don't solely use Windows, they usually have to use it as > the main OS, as the AQA exam software only works with Windows, not under > Wine; and the SIMS software uses MS Word to view files, which cannot be > changed to OpenOffice even on Windows as it's hardcoded into the XML file. > Technically I guess you could argue that SIMS are trying to enforce a monopoly by using MS Word to view files over just using the default application to open .doc files (be it Word, OpenOffice, WordPerfect, Works or even the MS Word viewer). Not having used SIMS software though I'm assuming Word is just used to view/edit/print the output from SIMS rather than having any specific macros built into the documents. Rob -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
I haven't tried it myself, but according to http://groups.google.co.uk/group/sf-uk-mias/browse_thread/thread/9944ecbcb49896cf?hl=en&q=sims#b482426374ef3534, http://www.edugeek.net/forums/office-software/29498-open-office-v-ms-office.html, http://www.edugeek.net/forums/mis-systems/4504-sims-net-does-not-fully-support-open-office-post45518.html and another better thread with more details on edugeek I can;t find, it's not possible to simply edit the XML file, or even change the appropriate SIMS entry in the registry. Harry Rickards On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 13:35:26 +, Philip Stubbs wrote: > 2009/2/9 LeeGroups : >> Without wishing to sound like a know-it-all, if the SIMS software uses >> an XML file to control what's used to view files (as per your mail >> below), then XML files can easily be altered... they are straight ASCII >> files which can be edited with Notepad... > > Its OK, you are at no risk of sounding like a Know-it-all if you > suggest Notepad. > Notepad! Are you mad? Vi, Vim, Emacs or even Gedit, but not Notepad, > please. :-) > > The only useful thing I can think of using Notepad for is a small > application to test if Wine is working. > > -- > Philip Stubbs -- __ () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
LeeGroups wrote > There used to be a saying in the computer industry which was "Nobody > ever got fired for buying IBM". > I think it's shifted to Microsoft. Speaking from experience, > most school "IT department heads" don't know that much about IT. > They perceive it as a 'safe' option to go with MS, every if > it costs a fortune, because "everyone else uses it". But it doesn't cost a forture. MS academic/home/student licences are massive discounts. For example, Visual Studio 2008 Professional is 75 quid on the academic discount scheme, compared to 475 quid normal retail. MS Office Standard 2007 is 35 quid on academic, 270 quid normal retail. The academic discount goes even further if you buy electronic delivery licences in bulk from specialist academic software suppliers. http://www.lambda-tek.com/componentshop/index.pl?prodID=B133763 http://www.lambda-tek.com/componentshop/index.pl?prodID=B99223 http://www.software4students.co.uk/Microsoft_Office_Standard_2007-detail s.aspx http://www.ecostsoftware.com/microsoft/microsoft-office-2007-standard_p3 036 If you try to argue against Microsoft on grounds of price, you'll fail every time. Home users, schools, universities and students don't pay full rate for software. Only businesses pay full rate - and they can claim it back against tax anyway. The cost of licencing is peanuts to the cost of install and maintennance. The important cost to a primary school is having to hire IT geeks to come round and install stuff and promise to still be in business on the end of a phone in 2 years when it goes wrong. A bunch of well-meaning geek dads installing OpenOffice one week, but then being too busy in three months' time to fix an issue with a document infected with macro malware, is of no use whatsoever to a primary school. In the school sector, you need to distinguish your software by premium-grade on-site support, compatibility with industry standards and the applications' ability to provide CV-improving skills. Want to fix this problem? Two simple steps: 1. Get local businesses to start demanding OpenOffice as a CV skill from job applicants. 2. Get schools to demand OpenOffice support from their IT support contracts. ...in that order. Andrew Oakley Head of Software Development Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) 95 Promenade, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire GL50 1HZ T 01242 211460 F 01242 211122 W www.hesa.ac.uk _ Higher Education Statistics Agency Ltd (HESA) is a company limited by guarantee, registered in England at 95 Promenade Cheltenham GL50 1HZ. Registered No. 2766993. The members are Universities UK and GuildHE. Registered Charity No. 1039709. Certified to ISO 9001 and ISO 27001. HESA Services Ltd (HSL) is a wholly owned subsidiary of HESA, registered in England at the same address. Registered No. 3109219. _ This outgoing email was virus scanned for HESA by MessageLabs. _ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
Your cause is honorable however for Linux to turn the trend. you must first prove to those schools that Linux is better and that it can do things far better than windows. In the Linux community there has to be a leap in ideas where when the user logs on he/she is presented, ready to use icons on the desktop, like open office and the if the user places their mouse over the top the icon gets larger. In the background the programs are already loaded and when clicked the package opens in less then 2 seconds. When the OS is first loaded its check the hardware and looks for the drivers. it then displays them to the user to confirm these driver are ready for download. These are just some of the ideas that would make Linux more sellable to user to choose what OS their looking for. On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 8:56 PM, Vinothan Shankar < neversaymon...@googlemail.com> wrote: > I've created a petition to the Prime Minister to make the primary OS in > schools free and open source - it can be found at > http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/nonMSschools. To anyone that points > out I should have suggested Ubuntu for Education, the first submission > did, but was rejected on the grounds that it was "promoting commercial > products or services". The petition should probably also have pointed > out that schools could keep the same hardware, but petitions there are > restricted to 1000 characters including spaces. > > Please sign. > > -- > ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ > > -- Robert Flatters, AMBSC -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
2009/2/8 Vinothan Shankar : > I've created a petition to the Prime Minister to make the primary OS in > schools free and open source - it can be found at > http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/nonMSschools. To anyone that points > out I should have suggested Ubuntu for Education, the first submission > did, but was rejected on the grounds that it was "promoting commercial > products or services". The petition should probably also have pointed > out that schools could keep the same hardware, but petitions there are > restricted to 1000 characters including spaces. > > Please sign. I don't think I will sign. Simply, I don't think that schools should teach how to use MS Office or OpenOffice. What they should teach is how to use a spreadsheet and a word processor. A selection should then be made available and the students allowed to get a feel for different methods. This will encourage them to realise that there is more than one way to do it. The bottom line is, I don't like OpenOffice being locked out and would rather see schools use it alongside other alternatives including MS Office and even LaTeX. -- Philip Stubbs -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
2009/2/9 LeeGroups : > Without wishing to sound like a know-it-all, if the SIMS software uses > an XML file to control what's used to view files (as per your mail > below), then XML files can easily be altered... they are straight ASCII > files which can be edited with Notepad... Its OK, you are at no risk of sounding like a Know-it-all if you suggest Notepad. Notepad! Are you mad? Vi, Vim, Emacs or even Gedit, but not Notepad, please. :-) The only useful thing I can think of using Notepad for is a small application to test if Wine is working. -- Philip Stubbs -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 You could probably go with having MS on the admin network, then Linux or fre softare on the academic network, eventually people will filter through who can and want to use alternatives, then chance will come problem is MS seem to have a huge marketing budget, and are able to get stuff like OOXML fast tracked, so against that, we have very little muscle unless we want to play by some other rules (which we don't) its a case of education and educating people about the alternatives, putting up the right arguments, backed by proper refereced resources and keep going. Looking at wikipedia office suites entry, it says ms has something called groove, (something about collaboration, even though the name suggests otherwise (some sort of music app perhaps), anyway ubuntu needs something like this, so people can collaborate on stuff, via the desktop, or does it have it, if so we need to market those features and get them to work better with things like open office. Paul LeeGroups wrote: > That's true, but aren't they both adminstrative functions? > > How many PC's are there in an average school vs. the average number of > adminstrative PC's? > > Lee > > Without wishing to sound like a know-it-all, if the SIMS software uses > an XML file to control what's used to view files (as per your mail > below), then XML files can easily be altered... they are straight ASCII > files which can be edited with Notepad... > >> Even if school's don't solely use Windows, they usually have to use it as >> the main OS, as the AQA exam software only works with Windows, not under >> Wine; and the SIMS software uses MS Word to view files, which cannot be >> changed to OpenOffice even on Windows as it's hardcoded into the XML file. >> >> On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 12:01:31 +, LeeGroups >> wrote: >> Aparently primnary schools are forced to use MS office so the children are ready for what is used in Secondary schools which is I guess a fair argument i guess. And i guess secondaries feel obliged to use MS office as they see it as "industry standard." >>> There used to be a saying in the computer industry which was "Nobody >>> ever got fired for buying IBM". >>> I think it's shifted to Microsoft. Speaking from experience, most school >>> "IT department heads" don't know that much about IT. >>> They perceive it as a 'safe' option to go with MS, every if it costs a >>> fortune, because "everyone else uses it". >>> >>> It's a classic circular argument... >>> >>> Lee >>> >> > - -- Paul Sutton www.zleap.net Support Open and ISO standard file formats ISO 26300 odf http://www.odfalliance.org Next Linux User Group meet : March 7th : 3pm, Shoreline Cafe Paignton -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmQL9sACgkQaggq1k2FJq0VHgCeJHBH9BXQFh+qPDep5/8yb2X6 cJEAniFBTxzE2QwCTaW/BRmnQzC8Lp1M =QpDc -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
That's true, but aren't they both adminstrative functions? How many PC's are there in an average school vs. the average number of adminstrative PC's? Lee Without wishing to sound like a know-it-all, if the SIMS software uses an XML file to control what's used to view files (as per your mail below), then XML files can easily be altered... they are straight ASCII files which can be edited with Notepad... > Even if school's don't solely use Windows, they usually have to use it as > the main OS, as the AQA exam software only works with Windows, not under > Wine; and the SIMS software uses MS Word to view files, which cannot be > changed to OpenOffice even on Windows as it's hardcoded into the XML file. > > On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 12:01:31 +, LeeGroups > wrote: > >>> Aparently primnary schools are forced to use MS office so the children >>> are ready for what is used in Secondary schools which is I guess a fair >>> argument i guess. And i guess secondaries feel obliged to use MS office >>> as they see it as "industry standard." >>> >> There used to be a saying in the computer industry which was "Nobody >> ever got fired for buying IBM". >> I think it's shifted to Microsoft. Speaking from experience, most school >> "IT department heads" don't know that much about IT. >> They perceive it as a 'safe' option to go with MS, every if it costs a >> fortune, because "everyone else uses it". >> >> It's a classic circular argument... >> >> Lee >> > > -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Good point, so perhaps we should lobby the AQA to use open standards. Paul Harry Rickards wrote: > Even if school's don't solely use Windows, they usually have to use it as > the main OS, as the AQA exam software only works with Windows, not under > Wine; and the SIMS software uses MS Word to view files, which cannot be > changed to OpenOffice even on Windows as it's hardcoded into the XML file. > > On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 12:01:31 +, LeeGroups > wrote: >>> Aparently primnary schools are forced to use MS office so the children >>> are ready for what is used in Secondary schools which is I guess a fair >>> argument i guess. And i guess secondaries feel obliged to use MS office >>> as they see it as "industry standard." >> There used to be a saying in the computer industry which was "Nobody >> ever got fired for buying IBM". >> I think it's shifted to Microsoft. Speaking from experience, most school >> "IT department heads" don't know that much about IT. >> They perceive it as a 'safe' option to go with MS, every if it costs a >> fortune, because "everyone else uses it". >> >> It's a classic circular argument... >> >> Lee > - -- Paul Sutton www.zleap.net Support Open and ISO standard file formats ISO 26300 odf http://www.odfalliance.org Next Linux User Group meet : March 7th : 3pm, Shoreline Cafe Paignton -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmQKi0ACgkQaggq1k2FJq2l2ACcDwLKRUYF5vPJL0uHxgzG/b4v JigAnA1YPjztmCXKy1qD5/c+ZIaCp73s =m5xL -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
Even if school's don't solely use Windows, they usually have to use it as the main OS, as the AQA exam software only works with Windows, not under Wine; and the SIMS software uses MS Word to view files, which cannot be changed to OpenOffice even on Windows as it's hardcoded into the XML file. On Mon, 09 Feb 2009 12:01:31 +, LeeGroups wrote: >> Aparently primnary schools are forced to use MS office so the children >> are ready for what is used in Secondary schools which is I guess a fair >> argument i guess. And i guess secondaries feel obliged to use MS office >> as they see it as "industry standard." > There used to be a saying in the computer industry which was "Nobody > ever got fired for buying IBM". > I think it's shifted to Microsoft. Speaking from experience, most school > "IT department heads" don't know that much about IT. > They perceive it as a 'safe' option to go with MS, every if it costs a > fortune, because "everyone else uses it". > > It's a classic circular argument... > > Lee -- __ () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
> Aparently primnary schools are forced to use MS office so the children > are ready for what is used in Secondary schools which is I guess a fair > argument i guess. And i guess secondaries feel obliged to use MS office > as they see it as "industry standard." There used to be a saying in the computer industry which was "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM". I think it's shifted to Microsoft. Speaking from experience, most school "IT department heads" don't know that much about IT. They perceive it as a 'safe' option to go with MS, every if it costs a fortune, because "everyone else uses it". It's a classic circular argument... Lee -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Aparently primnary schools are forced to use MS office so the children are ready for what is used in Secondary schools which is I guess a fair argument i guess. And i guess secondaries feel obliged to use MS office as they see it as "industry standard." However looking at what happen at the exwick community centre where they children/ Young people and adults there seemed to have little problem finding their way around ubuntu (which looks a lot different to windows), it proves that the children would have no problems going from say open office to Ms office in the secondary school, ( I am only going from what has been said in the e-mails since) I am not an expert, but it seems no matter what justification people try and use for using Windows, there is a way round it, Kids / young people can simply adapt, I am 33 and having used KDE for years, installed ubuntu (using gnome) had no problem with it, ok it take a while to find what I need, but I have 3 menus, applications, places, adn system, so its pretty obvious what each one is for, When we have more write ups, we should have more observations and evidence to back the above up, Paul David King wrote: > The other way to get windows out of schools is to remove the glass and > replace with bricks :-) > > David King > > > Vinothan Shankar wrote: >> I've created a petition to the Prime Minister to make the primary OS in >> schools free and open source - it can be found at >> http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/nonMSschools. To anyone that points >> out I should have suggested Ubuntu for Education, the first submission >> did, but was rejected on the grounds that it was "promoting commercial >> products or services". The petition should probably also have pointed >> out that schools could keep the same hardware, but petitions there are >> restricted to 1000 characters including spaces. >> >> Please sign. >> > - -- Paul Sutton www.zleap.net Support Open and ISO standard file formats ISO 26300 odf http://www.odfalliance.org Next Linux User Group meet : March 7th : 3pm, Shoreline Cafe Paignton -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkmQEukACgkQaggq1k2FJq1/5wCgkUjrzWDrrYwX7PP2pTFYoUYb z9MAn3lO7xojGrzIHxyW3qCrwlGKHRVi =NYF3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
Signed -- cheers for setting that up. Doug. 2009/2/9 David King > The other way to get windows out of schools is to remove the glass and > replace with bricks :-) > > David King > > > Vinothan Shankar wrote: > > I've created a petition to the Prime Minister to make the primary OS in > > schools free and open source - it can be found at > > http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/nonMSschools. To anyone that points > > out I should have suggested Ubuntu for Education, the first submission > > did, but was rejected on the grounds that it was "promoting commercial > > products or services". The petition should probably also have pointed > > out that schools could keep the same hardware, but petitions there are > > restricted to 1000 characters including spaces. > > > > Please sign. > > > > -- > ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ > -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Help get Windows out of schools
The other way to get windows out of schools is to remove the glass and replace with bricks :-) David King Vinothan Shankar wrote: > I've created a petition to the Prime Minister to make the primary OS in > schools free and open source - it can be found at > http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/nonMSschools. To anyone that points > out I should have suggested Ubuntu for Education, the first submission > did, but was rejected on the grounds that it was "promoting commercial > products or services". The petition should probably also have pointed > out that schools could keep the same hardware, but petitions there are > restricted to 1000 characters including spaces. > > Please sign. > -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
