RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in Windows 98
Well, the standard thing to do is to degrade gracefully. You app should
run as well as it can on Win98,and run better on Win2k or WinXP. If you
encounter some UTF-16 supplementary characters, handle it with an error
message or something else, such as showing a glyph for "undisplayable
character". It's what we do. You can only force it so far.
So, the error is really "We were not able to display the Linear B text
since you are on Win98", and don't display it until you have to. That
way you can pretty much be sure no one will see the error. :-)
Cheers,
Chris
Sent with OfficeXP on WindowsXP
-Original Message-
From: Martin Kochanski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: March 14, 2002 00:47
To: Chris Pratley; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in Windows 98
At 21:47 13/03/02 -0800, Chris Pratley wrote:
>If you're trying to offer users something not supported on old systems,
>you are going to have to get users to understand versions - there's no
>way around it - via manual, error message, whatever.
Yes, but the crucial thing is that when the "something" is as
unimportant to most ordinary people as Unicode support, then we can't
deprive them of our product *as a whole* simply because they don't want
to go through an expensive upheaval. "Sorry, you can't use Cardbox on
your Windows installation without upgrading Windows, because it wouldn't
be able to handle Linear B properly" is not a terribly useful thing to
say to a monoglot English-speaker.
>If there is another
>solution that does handle what you are trying to do for them, then they
>are right to go buy that. It just so happens that that other solution
>might be called "latest version of Windows". :-)
Strictly speaking, I don't actually know *what* I am trying to do for
them. I may be trying to give them {insert glowing description of
software here}, in which case they don't need to buy anything from you.
Or I may be trying to give them {insert glowing description of software
here} with support for complex Unicode scripts and supplementary plane
characters, in which case it is indeed reasonable to tell them to buy
the latest Windows (or just install the latest Office or IE, if it's
only the scripts).
Which is all to say that one day the DLLs you mention *will* be "part of
Windows" (in about 2005, I reckon), because one day Windows XP will be
the oldest version of Windows that one can reasonably expect anyone to
have. Until then, we'll need to do the best we can -- which is directly
linking to anything that Win98 provides "out of the box" and dynamically
linking to the rest, so that if the facility is there then we can use
it. This, although a little tedious to program, makes a nice invisible
solution: the majority will work quite happily whether or not they have
the latest software from MS, and they will automatically get all the
Latin, Greek, and Cyrillic scripts anyway. Anyone needing something more
advanced than that will be *aware* that they have an advanced
requirement and may well have upgraded to cope with it already.
Thanks for the hint about the registry key. Anyone know any free font
that has some SMP characters in it? It really doesn't matter what they
are, because if our program works with one SMP character, it'll work
with them all.
Re: Hungarian Runic (was: Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98)
On Thu, Mar 14, 2002 at 04:30:59PM +, Michael Everson wrote: > At 07:59 -0800 2002-03-14, Doug Ewell wrote: > > > > Since > >> that time, three institutions in Norway and Finland helped fund a > >> small project team to sort out characters needed to complete support > >> for the Uralic Phonetic Alphabet (see > > > http://www.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2419.pdf.) > > > >That document is password-protected. > > It's not supposed to be! Well, it is OK now. > > >When I found it on your web site a few days ago and Acrobat asked me for > >the password, I assumed it was protected intentionally, as a new WG2 > >policy. But the fact that you included a link to it in your message > >suggests that it was accidental. WG2 does not have a specific policy on such matters, we only follow the general rules from ISO/IEC JTC 1 > Keld, please replace the current version with this one. It is in all > respects identical to the old one except that a password isn't needed > to open it. OK, done. Anyway I did not announce it to WG2 yet. Keld
Hungarian Runic (was: Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98)
Michael Everson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Since > that time, three institutions in Norway and Finland helped fund a > small project team to sort out characters needed to complete support > for the Uralic Phonetic Alphabet (see > http://www.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2419.pdf.) That document is password-protected. When I found it on your web site a few days ago and Acrobat asked me for the password, I assumed it was protected intentionally, as a new WG2 policy. But the fact that you included a link to it in your message suggests that it was accidental. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California
Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
At 12:38 -0600 2002-03-13, David Starner wrote: >I've have a question, as much for Michael Everson as anyone else. How do >you rescue a script that has a proposal but hasn't had any action in 5 >years? One of my friends was asking about Hungarian Runic, and all I >could suggest was getting the Hungarian standards body to take up the >cause. You provide the resources for to the experts and standardizers to do the work to get it done sooner rather than later. Otherwise it's a spare-time thing, and spare time was a lot more available prior to the present economic slump. I think it's very interesting that there is suddenly a tremendous upsurge in interest in a number of scripts. With regard to Hungarian Runic, we were at a bit of an impasse with some experts in Hungary about ligated forms, just about the time the use of ZWJ was beginning to be considered for that purpose. Since that time, three institutions in Norway and Finland helped fund a small project team to sort out characters needed to complete support for the Uralic Phonetic Alphabet (see http://www.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2419.pdf.) It may be the case that Finno-Ugric institutions may also take an interest in hastening the encoding of Hungarian Runic and Old Permic. -- Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com
RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in Windows 98
At 21:47 13/03/02 -0800, Chris Pratley wrote:
>If you're trying to offer users something not supported on old systems,
>you are going to have to get users to understand versions - there's no
>way around it - via manual, error message, whatever.
Yes, but the crucial thing is that when the "something" is as unimportant to most
ordinary people as Unicode support, then we can't deprive them of our product *as a
whole* simply because they don't want to go through an expensive upheaval. "Sorry, you
can't use Cardbox on your Windows installation without upgrading Windows, because it
wouldn't be able to handle Linear B properly" is not a terribly useful thing to say to
a monoglot English-speaker.
>If there is another
>solution that does handle what you are trying to do for them, then they
>are right to go buy that. It just so happens that that other solution
>might be called "latest version of Windows". :-)
Strictly speaking, I don't actually know *what* I am trying to do for them. I may be
trying to give them {insert glowing description of software here}, in which case they
don't need to buy anything from you. Or I may be trying to give them {insert glowing
description of software here} with support for complex Unicode scripts and
supplementary plane characters, in which case it is indeed reasonable to tell them to
buy the latest Windows (or just install the latest Office or IE, if it's only the
scripts).
Which is all to say that one day the DLLs you mention *will* be "part of Windows" (in
about 2005, I reckon), because one day Windows XP will be the oldest version of
Windows that one can reasonably expect anyone to have. Until then, we'll need to do
the best we can -- which is directly linking to anything that Win98 provides "out of
the box" and dynamically linking to the rest, so that if the facility is there then we
can use it. This, although a little tedious to program, makes a nice invisible
solution: the majority will work quite happily whether or not they have the latest
software from MS, and they will automatically get all the Latin, Greek, and Cyrillic
scripts anyway. Anyone needing something more advanced than that will be *aware* that
they have an advanced requirement and may well have upgraded to cope with it already.
Thanks for the hint about the registry key. Anyone know any free font that has some
SMP characters in it? It really doesn't matter what they are, because if our program
works with one SMP character, it'll work with them all.
RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in Windows 98
The other aspect of the real world is that there are old dogs and there are new tricks, and you can't always get the former to do the latter no matter how much you wish they could. If you're trying to offer users something not supported on old systems, you are going to have to get users to understand versions - there's no way around it - via manual, error message, whatever. If there is another solution that does handle what you are trying to do for them, then they are right to go buy that. It just so happens that that other solution might be called "latest version of Windows". :-) FWIW, mshtml.dll v.6 is part of WindowsXP - it is the html rendering service used by the shell, IE and other apps and applets. IE6 also installs it. some versions of mshtml.dll v.5.x also support supplementary characters. Riched20.dll v.4 is available with OfficeXP, and also ships on the WindowsXp install image I believe. Display of UTF-16 supplementary characters is supported by the system renderer only in Windows2000 and WindowsXp, and requires setting a reg key as detailed in other posts. Chris Sent with OfficeXP on WindowsXP -Original Message- From: Martin Kochanski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: March 12, 2002 00:04 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in Windows 98 At 17:34 11/03/02 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >On 03/11/2002 12:58:16 AM "Chris Pratley" wrote: > >>While it is true that in terms of absolute numbers most apps do not yet >>support UTF-16, it is worth noting that OfficeXP and anything based on >>mshtml.dll ver.6 (e.g. IE 6) or Riched20.dll v.4 (e.g. Wordpad in WinXP) >>do handle surrogate characters from UTF-16 correctly. So in terms of >>usage, surrogate support is covered pretty well as adoption of these >>newer versions increases. > >But I believe there is another problem: I'm pretty sure that the TrueType >rasterisation part of Win9x/Me does not support the newer cmap formats >that are required to display glyphs for non-BMP characters. So, the apps >may understand the characters, but unless they are reading the cmap tables >on their own and drawing text as glyph strings, you won't see the glyphs >on Win9x/Me. > >I expect Chris was assuming Win2K/XP, since it is very definitely a better >platform for script support. This issue of support for newer cmap formats >is but one reason why. The trouble is that in the real world no-one uses Win2K/XP. No-one uses Win9x/Me either. They just use Windows. Ask a user any more than that, and he'll look blank; insist on an answer, and he'll go off and buy something else. So we need to be able to run equally well on both platforms without having to ask. That said, anyone who uses non-BMP characters will already know that they all look the same on his system (even if he doesn't know explicitly that it's 9x/Me), so *in this particular case* we should be able to get away with it. Of course, we can't assume mshtml.dll ver.6 or Riched20.dll v.4 or even Uniscribe, since none of these are part of Windows either...
Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
On Sun, Mar 10, 2002 at 09:47:50PM -0800, Doug Ewell wrote: > You do realize, of course, that any sort of work done with Old Persian > Cuneiform based on N1639 should be limited to laboratory > experimentation. Not only is this script not in Unicode, it's been > relegated to the "under investigation" list, a pool of quicksand from > which few scripts have ever been rescued. I've have a question, as much for Michael Everson as anyone else. How do you rescue a script that has a proposal but hasn't had any action in 5 years? One of my friends was asking about Hungarian Runic, and all I could suggest was getting the Hungarian standards body to take up the cause. -- David Starner - [EMAIL PROTECTED] "It's not a habit; it's cool; I feel alive. If you don't have it you're on the other side." - K's Choice (probably refering to the Internet)
Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
If anyone wants to experiment with Old Persian implementation they should use private use characters. Doing anything else creates bad habits. -- Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com
RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in Windows 98
At 17:34 11/03/02 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >On 03/11/2002 12:58:16 AM "Chris Pratley" wrote: > >>While it is true that in terms of absolute numbers most apps do not yet >>support UTF-16, it is worth noting that OfficeXP and anything based on >>mshtml.dll ver.6 (e.g. IE 6) or Riched20.dll v.4 (e.g. Wordpad in WinXP) >>do handle surrogate characters from UTF-16 correctly. So in terms of >>usage, surrogate support is covered pretty well as adoption of these >>newer versions increases. > >But I believe there is another problem: I'm pretty sure that the TrueType >rasterisation part of Win9x/Me does not support the newer cmap formats >that are required to display glyphs for non-BMP characters. So, the apps >may understand the characters, but unless they are reading the cmap tables >on their own and drawing text as glyph strings, you won't see the glyphs >on Win9x/Me. > >I expect Chris was assuming Win2K/XP, since it is very definitely a better >platform for script support. This issue of support for newer cmap formats >is but one reason why. The trouble is that in the real world no-one uses Win2K/XP. No-one uses Win9x/Me either. They just use Windows. Ask a user any more than that, and he'll look blank; insist on an answer, and he'll go off and buy something else. So we need to be able to run equally well on both platforms without having to ask. That said, anyone who uses non-BMP characters will already know that they all look the same on his system (even if he doesn't know explicitly that it's 9x/Me), so *in this particular case* we should be able to get away with it. Of course, we can't assume mshtml.dll ver.6 or Riched20.dll v.4 or even Uniscribe, since none of these are part of Windows either...
RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
On 03/11/2002 12:58:16 AM "Chris Pratley" wrote: >While it is true that in terms of absolute numbers most apps do not yet >support UTF-16, it is worth noting that OfficeXP and anything based on >mshtml.dll ver.6 (e.g. IE 6) or Riched20.dll v.4 (e.g. Wordpad in WinXP) >do handle surrogate characters from UTF-16 correctly. So in terms of >usage, surrogate support is covered pretty well as adoption of these >newer versions increases. But I believe there is another problem: I'm pretty sure that the TrueType rasterisation part of Win9x/Me does not support the newer cmap formats that are required to display glyphs for non-BMP characters. So, the apps may understand the characters, but unless they are reading the cmap tables on their own and drawing text as glyph strings, you won't see the glyphs on Win9x/Me. I expect Chris was assuming Win2K/XP, since it is very definitely a better platform for script support. This issue of support for newer cmap formats is but one reason why. - Peter --- Peter Constable Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA Tel: +1 972 708 7485 E-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
On 03/09/2002 04:57:23 PM Marc Durdin wrote: >Peter, I don't think that you can use plane 1-16 characters at all in Windows >9x/Me, because the renderer does not support them. I'm not sure if Word works >around this, but my (often unreliable) memory tells me it doesn't. Well, last week, it was *my* memory that was out to lunch. Indeed, Win9x/Me does not supporte rendering of supplementary plane characters. What you'd see, then, is a pair of boxes (or other .notdef glyph). In terms of what can be entered reliably into a doc, what I had was correct, though it's of limited use if the user can't actually see the glyphs. - Peter --- Peter Constable Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA Tel: +1 972 708 7485 E-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
On 03/09/2002 11:20:43 AM "Vladimir Ivanov" wrote: >If I build an Avestan font according to Michael Everson's specifications >(Avestan characters should be in BMP, see >http://www.evertype.com/standards/iso10646/pdf/avestan.pdf) How do you propose to encode the characters? That documentation does not specify that, nor could it since actual codepoints are not chosen by authors of proposals but by the standards bodies. Did you have in mind private-use characters? > and a Keyman >keyboard layout, would I be able to type Avestan texts in: >Word 2002, Publisher 2002, Access 2002 under Windows 2000/XP? Assuming some answer to the previous question, yes, you can *type* them. You'll be lucky to get any more support for them than that. >Is it necessary to add some special characters to Keyman keyboard to tell >Uniscribe that Avestan is a >right-to-left script? I suppose you could insert U+202E at the beginning of a run and U+202C at the end. Whether it does what you want could only be determined by experimentation. >Or should this be done through the VOLT (Avestan font >needs some right-to-left kerning)? Generally, how can an application know >that a certain range of BMP belongs to a right-to-left script? It has to rely somehow on Unicode character properties. In theory, these could be obtained from a variety of sources, including a font (Graphite does provide the ability to specify directionality of private-use characters, for example), but in practice most software implementations of the bidi algorithm don't work that way. Some may have particular ranges hard-wired into code; others may lookup in compiled tables. >Should we wait for Keyman 6 to type Old Persian in the same applications >because this script is in Plane 1? Before typing *anything* using Plane 1 codepoints, you should wait until it has been incorporated in The Unicode Standard and ISO 10646. If you jump the gun and implement something that has been proposed but not yet standardised, you create a very real risk of ending up with invalidly-encoded data since the codepoints can and often do change between a proposal and the approved standard -- even the actual inventory of characters often undergoes change. - Peter --- Peter Constable Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA Tel: +1 972 708 7485 E-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
I'd love to make sure that Cardbox is one of those virtuous applications. Can anyone suggest a font that can be installed on Win98 and actually displays some surrogate characters? At 22:58 10/03/02 -0800, Chris Pratley wrote: >While it is true that in terms of absolute numbers most apps do not yet >support UTF-16, it is worth noting that OfficeXP and anything based on >mshtml.dll ver.6 (e.g. IE 6) or Riched20.dll v.4 (e.g. Wordpad in WinXP) >do handle surrogate characters from UTF-16 correctly. So in terms of >usage, surrogate support is covered pretty well as adoption of these >newer versions increases. > >Chris
Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
At 21:47 -0800 2002-03-10, Doug Ewell wrote: >You do realize, of course, that any sort of work done with Old Persian >Cuneiform based on N1639 should be limited to laboratory >experimentation. Not only is this script not in Unicode, it's been >relegated to the "under investigation" list, a pool of quicksand from >which few scripts have ever been rescued. That isn't true. They get rescued. It just takes time and resource to do it. >The fact that there's a block in the Roadmap for Old Persian Cuneiform >starting at U+103A0 is no guarantee of anything. Please don't >distribute keyboards or anything else using this proposed encoding, at >least not until it comes *much* closer to acceptance. I agree completely! -- Michael Everson *** Everson Typography *** http://www.evertype.com
RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
Marc Durdin wrote: 1. As Windows uses UTF-16 in most situations, most applications treat non-BMP characters as two separate characters for editing purposes, While it is true that in terms of absolute numbers most apps do not yet support UTF-16, it is worth noting that OfficeXP and anything based on mshtml.dll ver.6 (e.g. IE 6) or Riched20.dll v.4 (e.g. Wordpad in WinXP) do handle surrogate characters from UTF-16 correctly. So in terms of usage, surrogate support is covered pretty well as adoption of these newer versions increases. Chris -Original Message- From: Marc Durdin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 2:55 PM To: Vladimir Ivanov; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Chris Pratley; Michael Everson; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98 At 08:20 PM 9/03/2002 +0300, Vladimir Ivanov wrote: >Should we wait for Keyman 6 to type Old Persian in the same applications >because this script is in Plane 1? > Peter's summary of Keyman 5's plane 1-16 support is not quite correct. Keyman 5 does support planes 1-16 in most circumstances (it uses UTF-32 in its keyboard description), except with WM_UNICHAR (which is not relevant under Windows 2000/XP). There are also some caveats to remember: 1. As Windows uses UTF-16 in most situations, most applications treat non-BMP characters as two separate characters for editing purposes, although the renderer in Win2k and XP can display it as the correct character. This means that two backspaces are needed, for instance, to delete the whole character. Keyman 5 uses 2 backspaces when it needs to delete characters (such as when doing character combining), as when it was released, I was not aware of any major application that handled editing surrogate pairs correctly. Keyman 6 will handle this better with Text Services Framework support. 2. The renderer for Win2k does not display surrogate pairs as a single character unless you change a registry setting. See http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/intl/un icode_192r.asp for further details. 3. Some of Keyman 5's more advanced functionality does support non-BMP characters correctly, including index() and any(). Keyman 6 does fix this. (I expect this is what Peter was thinking of.) Regards, Marc Durdin Tavultesoft
Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
Vladimir Ivanov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Stefan Persson wrote: > >> Where in the UCS do you find the Old Persian characters? > > I'm referring to Michael Everson's "Proposal to encode Old Persian Cuneiform > in Plane 1 of ISO/IEC 10646-2" You do realize, of course, that any sort of work done with Old Persian Cuneiform based on N1639 should be limited to laboratory experimentation. Not only is this script not in Unicode, it's been relegated to the "under investigation" list, a pool of quicksand from which few scripts have ever been rescued. The fact that there's a block in the Roadmap for Old Persian Cuneiform starting at U+103A0 is no guarantee of anything. Please don't distribute keyboards or anything else using this proposed encoding, at least not until it comes *much* closer to acceptance. -Doug Ewell Fullerton, California
RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
I am using Kayman, and it has solved my problem.
Thank you Peter and Chris.
--- Chris Pratley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I should point out that Word2002 does not actually
> support WM_UNICHAR
> (actually no OfficeXP app does). Only RichEdit 4.0
> (riched20.dll) does.
> RichEdit is used in many places in the system and in
> Office and various
> applets such as WordPad, and likely Messenger, so
> that can be handy but
> it is not universal.
>
> However, the recommended method for communicating in
> Unicode to apps
> including Office is to
> a) use an NT-based OS such as NT4/Win2000/WindowsXP.
> Everything just
> works.
> b) or use the Text Services Framework, which is
> shipped in WindowsXP and
> also in OfficeXp. This is what, I believe Keyman
> actually uses now to
> get Unicode in Word2002 on Win98/Me - or the
> specific Word (object model
> based) method Peter mentions below.
>
> Keep in mind that most OfficeXP installations are
> now running on either
> Win2k or WinXP, and this trend is accelerating. The
> large majority of
> customers upgrade their OS or their entire machine
> at the time they
> acquire major new software.
>
> By the time we ship the next release of Office, the
> % of people who a)
> want to get a new version of Office and who b)
> insist on remaining with
> their old Win9x/ME OS will be very small indeed (not
> zero, I
> understand). Generally speaking, the Office team
> tries to make sure you
> can do everything on older OSes that we offer on the
> newer ones, but
> there is a limit to how much back-porting and
> investment in workarounds
> for older OS limitations we will make . We'd rather
> invest in more
> powerful features for the newer OSes that most
> people are using. So it
> is unlikely we will be improving our multilingual
> support on Win9x/Me -
> instead we'll extend it even further on the newer
> OSes.
>
> Chris
>
>
> Sent with OfficeXP on WindowsXP
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: March 8, 2002 08:29
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in
> WIndows 98
>
> On 03/08/2002 04:39:49 AM Marco Cimarosti wrote:
>
> >Lateef Sagar wrote:
> >> How can I create such a keyboard layout that can
> be
> >> used with Office XP (in Windows 98).
> >
> >http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman/
> >
> >It also works on Win 98.
>
> There are some issues to keep in mind in relation to
> Win9x/Me. I won't
> explain all the gory details (I probably have
> sometime earlier on this
> list), but in a nutshell, for most of the life of
> Win9x/Me, the
> characters
> that could be entered from a keyboard were limited
> to only those in some
>
> Windows codepage, and a given layout couldn't mix
> characters from
> different codepages. Late in 2000, MS added a new
> mechanism that
> involved
> using the system message WM_UNICHAR rather than
> WM_CHAR. This invention
> was quite slick since it could be used without
> breaking existing
> software
> and without requiring any patches to Windows itself.
> With old apps, it
> would just get ignored (not perfect, but not bad).
> All it would take to
> use it is (a) an input method that will generate it,
> and (b) apps that
> will recognise it.
>
> Tavultesoft Keyman will attempt to communicate with
> an app using
> WM_UNICHAR. If the app doesn't recognise that
> message, then Keyman will
> gracefully resort to plan B -- if the developer of
> the particular input
> method included rules for "ANSI" mode as well as
> Unicode, then Keyman
> will
> fall back to ANSI mode; otherwise, it deactivates
> that input method (the
>
> IM can be reactivated when focus is switched to
> another app).
>
> There are not many apps at this point that support
> WM_UNICHAR, but Word
> 2002 is one of them. The other apps in the Office
> suite do not, however,
>
> with the minor exception that the RichEdit control
> does support it, so
> it
> is supported wherever those other apps use the
> RichEdit control (e.g.
> the
> text boxes in search/replace dialogs). (I've been
> told that Keyman can
> be
> used to give full Unicode input support on Win 98
> with Internet
> Messenger;
> I'm guessing it must be using RichEdit.)
>
> If you are using Word 2000, you can obtain an add-in
> ("WordLink") from
> Tavultesoft that will add support for WM_UNICHAR.
>
> One last point: Keyman 5 did not provide support for
> supplementary plane
>
> characters. This will be added in Keyman 6, which
> will be available this
>
> spring.
>
=
Lateef Sagar Shaikh
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ICQ: 21341287
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Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
At 09:55 AM 11/03/2002 +1100, Marc Durdin wrote: > >3. Some of Keyman 5's more advanced functionality does support non-BMP characters >correctly, including index() and any(). Keyman 6 does fix this. (I expect this is >what Peter was thinking of.) Let's try that again: 3. Some of Keyman 5's more advanced functionality does NOT support non-BMP characters correctly, including index() and any(). Keyman 6 does fix this. (I expect this is what Peter was thinking of.) Marc
Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
Stefan Persson wrote: > Where in the UCS do you find the Old Persian characters? I'm referring to Michael Everson's "Proposal to encode Old Persian Cuneiform in Plane 1 of ISO/IEC 10646-2" > Anyways, if you can't use the code point for a Plane 1 character, simply use > the code points for the surrogate pair. Thank you for the advice. I'll try to experiment with it, though it will take some time. Vladimir Ivanov
Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
At 08:20 PM 9/03/2002 +0300, Vladimir Ivanov wrote: >Should we wait for Keyman 6 to type Old Persian in the same applications >because this script is in Plane 1? > Peter's summary of Keyman 5's plane 1-16 support is not quite correct. Keyman 5 does support planes 1-16 in most circumstances (it uses UTF-32 in its keyboard description), except with WM_UNICHAR (which is not relevant under Windows 2000/XP). There are also some caveats to remember: 1. As Windows uses UTF-16 in most situations, most applications treat non-BMP characters as two separate characters for editing purposes, although the renderer in Win2k and XP can display it as the correct character. This means that two backspaces are needed, for instance, to delete the whole character. Keyman 5 uses 2 backspaces when it needs to delete characters (such as when doing character combining), as when it was released, I was not aware of any major application that handled editing surrogate pairs correctly. Keyman 6 will handle this better with Text Services Framework support. 2. The renderer for Win2k does not display surrogate pairs as a single character unless you change a registry setting. See http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/intl/unicode_192r.asp for further details. 3. Some of Keyman 5's more advanced functionality does support non-BMP characters correctly, including index() and any(). Keyman 6 does fix this. (I expect this is what Peter was thinking of.) Regards, Marc Durdin Tavultesoft
Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
Tom Gewecke wrote: > One way to possibly type Old Persian (not yet in Unicode but incorporated > into at least one font in the Plane 15 PUA) is with the vitual keyboard at > > http://home.att.net/~jameskass/screenkeyindex.htm > > It may require Opera 6 and Win2k or XP to work right, I'm not sure. Worth > a try perhaps. Thank very much for the link. I will try it.
Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
- Original Message - From: "Vladimir Ivanov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Chris Pratley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Michael Everson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: den 9 mars 2002 18:20 Subject: Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98 > Should we wait for Keyman 6 to type Old Persian in the same applications > because this script is in Plane 1? Where in the UCS do you find the Old Persian characters? Anyways, if you can't use the code point for a Plane 1 character, simply use the code points for the surrogate pair. Stefan _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
Peter Constable wrote: > I'll revise my summary in relation to MS apps and Win9x/Me > > Unicode characters that can be input using > Keyman 5Keyman 6 (when released) > -- -- > Word 2000limited by limited by > Windows codepages Windows codepages > > Word 2000 w/ WordLinkall of BMP all (planes 0 - 16) > > other Office 2000 apps limited by limited by > Windows codepages Windows codepages > > Word 2002limited by all (planes 0 - 16) > Windows codepages > > Word 2002 w/ WordLinkall of BMP all (planes 0 - 16) > > Publisher 2002 all of BMP all (planes 0 - 16) > > other Office XP apps limited by limited by > Windows codepages Windows codepages May I ask you to give some more explicit explanations concerning the following scripts? If I build an Avestan font according to Michael Everson's specifications (Avestan characters should be in BMP, see http://www.evertype.com/standards/iso10646/pdf/avestan.pdf) and a Keyman keyboard layout, would I be able to type Avestan texts in: Word 2002, Publisher 2002, Access 2002 under Windows 2000/XP? Is it necessary to add some special characters to Keyman keyboard to tell Uniscribe that Avestan is a right-to-left script? Or should this be done through the VOLT (Avestan font needs some right-to-left kerning)? Generally, how can an application know that a certain range of BMP belongs to a right-to-left script? (BTW it seems to me that in Table XXX page 1 of the Avestan proposal Column xx4 should be shifted 1 cell downward to meet the description on page 2). Should we wait for Keyman 6 to type Old Persian in the same applications because this script is in Plane 1? Thank you in advance, Vladimir Ivanov
RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
At 02:26 PM 8/03/2002 -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Unicode characters that can be input using > Keyman 5Keyman 6 (when released) > >Word 2000 w/ WordLinkall of BMP all (planes 0 - 16) Peter, I don't think that you can use plane 1-16 characters at all in Windows 9x/Me, because the renderer does not support them. I'm not sure if Word works around this, but my (often unreliable) memory tells me it doesn't. Marc Durdin Tavultesoft
RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
On 03/08/2002 01:11:37 PM "Chris Pratley" wrote: >I should point out that Word2002 does not actually support WM_UNICHAR >(actually no OfficeXP app does). My mistake (how could I forget -- I was disappointed when it didn't quite make it). Word 2002 still needs WordLink, but Publisher 2002 does support WM_UNICHAR. >However, the recommended method for communicating in Unicode to apps >including Office is to >a) use an NT-based OS such as NT4/Win2000/WindowsXP. Everything just >works. I quite agree. There are many users who will be on Win98 for a while though (at least, many that I need to support). >b) or use the Text Services Framework, which is shipped in WindowsXP and >also in OfficeXp. This is what, I believe Keyman actually uses now to >get Unicode in Word2002 on Win98/Me - or the specific Word (object model >based) method Peter mentions below. Not yet. It will in Keyman 6. I'll revise my summary in relation to MS apps and Win9x/Me Unicode characters that can be input using Keyman 5Keyman 6 (when released) Word 2000limited by limited by Windows codepages Windows codepages Word 2000 w/ WordLinkall of BMP all (planes 0 - 16) other Office 2000 apps limited by limited by Windows codepages Windows codepages Word 2002limited by all (planes 0 - 16) Windows codepages Word 2002 w/ WordLinkall of BMP all (planes 0 - 16) Publisher 2002 all of BMP all (planes 0 - 16) other Office XP apps limited by limited by Windows codepages Windows codepages - Peter --- Peter Constable Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International 7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA Tel: +1 972 708 7485 E-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
I should point out that Word2002 does not actually support WM_UNICHAR
(actually no OfficeXP app does). Only RichEdit 4.0 (riched20.dll) does.
RichEdit is used in many places in the system and in Office and various
applets such as WordPad, and likely Messenger, so that can be handy but
it is not universal.
However, the recommended method for communicating in Unicode to apps
including Office is to
a) use an NT-based OS such as NT4/Win2000/WindowsXP. Everything just
works.
b) or use the Text Services Framework, which is shipped in WindowsXP and
also in OfficeXp. This is what, I believe Keyman actually uses now to
get Unicode in Word2002 on Win98/Me - or the specific Word (object model
based) method Peter mentions below.
Keep in mind that most OfficeXP installations are now running on either
Win2k or WinXP, and this trend is accelerating. The large majority of
customers upgrade their OS or their entire machine at the time they
acquire major new software.
By the time we ship the next release of Office, the % of people who a)
want to get a new version of Office and who b) insist on remaining with
their old Win9x/ME OS will be very small indeed (not zero, I
understand). Generally speaking, the Office team tries to make sure you
can do everything on older OSes that we offer on the newer ones, but
there is a limit to how much back-porting and investment in workarounds
for older OS limitations we will make . We'd rather invest in more
powerful features for the newer OSes that most people are using. So it
is unlikely we will be improving our multilingual support on Win9x/Me -
instead we'll extend it even further on the newer OSes.
Chris
Sent with OfficeXP on WindowsXP
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: March 8, 2002 08:29
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
On 03/08/2002 04:39:49 AM Marco Cimarosti wrote:
>Lateef Sagar wrote:
>> How can I create such a keyboard layout that can be
>> used with Office XP (in Windows 98).
>
>http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman/
>
>It also works on Win 98.
There are some issues to keep in mind in relation to Win9x/Me. I won't
explain all the gory details (I probably have sometime earlier on this
list), but in a nutshell, for most of the life of Win9x/Me, the
characters
that could be entered from a keyboard were limited to only those in some
Windows codepage, and a given layout couldn't mix characters from
different codepages. Late in 2000, MS added a new mechanism that
involved
using the system message WM_UNICHAR rather than WM_CHAR. This invention
was quite slick since it could be used without breaking existing
software
and without requiring any patches to Windows itself. With old apps, it
would just get ignored (not perfect, but not bad). All it would take to
use it is (a) an input method that will generate it, and (b) apps that
will recognise it.
Tavultesoft Keyman will attempt to communicate with an app using
WM_UNICHAR. If the app doesn't recognise that message, then Keyman will
gracefully resort to plan B -- if the developer of the particular input
method included rules for "ANSI" mode as well as Unicode, then Keyman
will
fall back to ANSI mode; otherwise, it deactivates that input method (the
IM can be reactivated when focus is switched to another app).
There are not many apps at this point that support WM_UNICHAR, but Word
2002 is one of them. The other apps in the Office suite do not, however,
with the minor exception that the RichEdit control does support it, so
it
is supported wherever those other apps use the RichEdit control (e.g.
the
text boxes in search/replace dialogs). (I've been told that Keyman can
be
used to give full Unicode input support on Win 98 with Internet
Messenger;
I'm guessing it must be using RichEdit.)
If you are using Word 2000, you can obtain an add-in ("WordLink") from
Tavultesoft that will add support for WM_UNICHAR.
One last point: Keyman 5 did not provide support for supplementary plane
characters. This will be added in Keyman 6, which will be available this
spring.
So, if you are on Win9x/Me and want to use Unicode characters that are
*not* supported by a Windows codeage, it can be done with certain
limitations. Here's a summary:
Unicode characters that can be input using
Keyman 5Keyman 6 (when
released)
Word 2000limited by limited by
Windows codepages Windows codepages
Word 2000 w/ WordLinkall of BMP all (planes 0 - 16)
other Office 2000 apps limited by limited by
Windows codepages Windows codepages
Word 2002all of BMP
RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
On 03/08/2002 04:39:49 AM Marco Cimarosti wrote:
>Lateef Sagar wrote:
>> How can I create such a keyboard layout that can be
>> used with Office XP (in Windows 98).
>
>http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman/
>
>It also works on Win 98.
There are some issues to keep in mind in relation to Win9x/Me. I won't
explain all the gory details (I probably have sometime earlier on this
list), but in a nutshell, for most of the life of Win9x/Me, the characters
that could be entered from a keyboard were limited to only those in some
Windows codepage, and a given layout couldn't mix characters from
different codepages. Late in 2000, MS added a new mechanism that involved
using the system message WM_UNICHAR rather than WM_CHAR. This invention
was quite slick since it could be used without breaking existing software
and without requiring any patches to Windows itself. With old apps, it
would just get ignored (not perfect, but not bad). All it would take to
use it is (a) an input method that will generate it, and (b) apps that
will recognise it.
Tavultesoft Keyman will attempt to communicate with an app using
WM_UNICHAR. If the app doesn't recognise that message, then Keyman will
gracefully resort to plan B -- if the developer of the particular input
method included rules for "ANSI" mode as well as Unicode, then Keyman will
fall back to ANSI mode; otherwise, it deactivates that input method (the
IM can be reactivated when focus is switched to another app).
There are not many apps at this point that support WM_UNICHAR, but Word
2002 is one of them. The other apps in the Office suite do not, however,
with the minor exception that the RichEdit control does support it, so it
is supported wherever those other apps use the RichEdit control (e.g. the
text boxes in search/replace dialogs). (I've been told that Keyman can be
used to give full Unicode input support on Win 98 with Internet Messenger;
I'm guessing it must be using RichEdit.)
If you are using Word 2000, you can obtain an add-in ("WordLink") from
Tavultesoft that will add support for WM_UNICHAR.
One last point: Keyman 5 did not provide support for supplementary plane
characters. This will be added in Keyman 6, which will be available this
spring.
So, if you are on Win9x/Me and want to use Unicode characters that are
*not* supported by a Windows codeage, it can be done with certain
limitations. Here's a summary:
Unicode characters that can be input using
Keyman 5Keyman 6 (when released)
Word 2000limited by limited by
Windows codepages Windows codepages
Word 2000 w/ WordLinkall of BMP all (planes 0 - 16)
other Office 2000 apps limited by limited by
Windows codepages Windows codepages
Word 2002all of BMP all (planes 0 - 16)
other Office XP apps limited by limited by
Windows codepages Windows codepages
I'm hoping that when Office dotNet appears that support for WM_UNICHAR
will have been added to other apps in the Office suite. (Chris Pratley,
can you comment on that?)
- Peter
---
Peter Constable
Non-Roman Script Initiative, SIL International
7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd., Dallas, TX 75236, USA
Tel: +1 972 708 7485
E-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
At 07:37 +0100 2002.03.08, Lateef Sagar wrote: >MS Office XP installs many keyboard layouts (like >Arabic etc) in Windows 98. For Windows NT/2000/XP >there is a shareware software "Keyboard Layout Manager >32 bit", but I haven't found out any software yet that >allows making a non-ASCII keyboard layout for Windows >98. >How can I create such a keyboard layout that can be >used with Office XP (in Windows 98). Do you mean the "Keyboard Layout Manager" at http://www.klm.freeservers.com/index.html ? This program allows you to create and modify Microsoft keyboard layout files. It works with Windows 95, Windows 95-OSR/2, Windows 98 and Windows ME operating systems. Also, it works with Windows NT 4.0, Windows XP, and Windows 2000 operating systems. >How can I create such a keyboard layout that can be used >with Office XP (in Windows 98). Office XP in Windows 98 ?? --
RE: Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
Lateef Sagar wrote: > How can I create such a keyboard layout that can be > used with Office XP (in Windows 98). http://www.tavultesoft.com/keyman/ It also works on Win 98. _ Marco
Keyboard Layouts for Office XP in WIndows 98
Dear List, MS Office XP installs many keyboard layouts (like Arabic etc) in Windows 98. For Windows NT/2000/XP there is a shareware software "Keyboard Layout Manager 32 bit", but I haven't found out any software yet that allows making a non-ASCII keyboard layout for Windows 98. How can I create such a keyboard layout that can be used with Office XP (in Windows 98). = Lateef Sagar Shaikh [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 21341287 __ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/
