Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Michael Chean]

I'm good for now, but let us know when it gets uploaded.

Thanks
Mike

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 2:35 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:

> On 2/24/12 4:05 PM, Michael Chean wrote:
>
>> I just want to point out that for an environment that emphasizes
>> English-like phrases, they sure didn't bother
>> to make there error messages fit that requirement.  Just saying... :)
>>
>
> They're in English in the IDE but you have to look them up otherwise. Info
> on that is in the dictionary in the errorDialog entry, it's very easy. I
> have a little lookup plugin I use that I keep meaning to upload to
> RevOnline (i.e. "User Samples" in the toolbar) but there's a little glitch
> right now that prevents uploading. Eventually it will get there. Drop me a
> note privately if you want it sooner.
>
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
> __**_
> use-livecode mailing list
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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[J. Landman Gay]

On 2/24/12 4:05 PM, Michael Chean wrote:

I just want to point out that for an environment that emphasizes
English-like phrases, they sure didn't bother
to make there error messages fit that requirement.  Just saying... :)


They're in English in the IDE but you have to look them up otherwise. 
Info on that is in the dictionary in the errorDialog entry, it's very 
easy. I have a little lookup plugin I use that I keep meaning to upload 
to RevOnline (i.e. "User Samples" in the toolbar) but there's a little 
glitch right now that prevents uploading. Eventually it will get there. 
Drop me a note privately if you want it sooner.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Michael Chean]

I just want to point out that for an environment that emphasizes
English-like phrases, they sure didn't bother
to make there error messages fit that requirement.  Just saying... :)

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 9:55 AM, Mark Wieder  wrote:

> Bob Sneidar  writes:
>
> >
> > Point taken, but I think you are mistaken on one point. You cannot put
> anything into a property
>
> Yes, a more appropriate (and real-world) example would have been
>
> put theVersion into tVar
> vs
> put the Version into tVar
>
>
> > I have trained my monkey brain to avoid that for the most part.
>
> Ahh. I want to sit at your feet and absorb those lessons.
>
> "...Those are not the spaces you want to insert..."
>
> --
>  Mark Wieder
>
>
>
>
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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Mark Wieder]

Bob Sneidar  writes:

> 
> Point taken, but I think you are mistaken on one point. You cannot put
anything into a property

Yes, a more appropriate (and real-world) example would have been

put theVersion into tVar
vs
put the Version into tVar


> I have trained my monkey brain to avoid that for the most part.

Ahh. I want to sit at your feet and absorb those lessons.

"...Those are not the spaces you want to insert..."

-- 
 Mark Wieder




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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Jim Schaubeck]

Excellent answer...very funny...made my day!

 
  jim schaubeck   714.321.4499



 From: Devin Asay 
To: How to use LiveCode  
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?
 

On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:34 AM, Mark Wieder wrote:

> Jacque-
> 
> Thursday, February 23, 2012, 7:20:40 PM, you wrote:
> 
>>> set foreColor of fld "myField" to blue
> 
> I'll double down on your rant.
> 
> Since when is "fld" easier to read than "field"? You save typing two
> vowels and end up with a thing that's not a word in any language I
> know of. Same thing with "btn", etc. That's a step away from either
> English-like or natural language processing - your brain has to do a
> cognitive dance from the vowelless thing (shades of H.P. Lovecraft) to
> a real word, and then can continue with the rest of the phrase to make
> sense of the statement.
> 

I dnt knw wht yr tlkng abt. Sms prfctly ntrl to me.

:)

Devin

Devin Asay
Humanities Technology and Research Support Center
Brigham Young University




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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Bob Sneidar]

Point taken, but I think you are mistaken on one point. You cannot put anything 
into a property, you can only set a property. "put the foreColor of me into the 
FgColor" will cause the compiler to come to a screeching halt, as will set the 
foreColor to the fgColor, because I haven't supplied the object argument to the 
fgColor. But you are right in saying that it is easy to slip up and insert that 
space. I have trained my monkey brain to avoid that for the most part. 

Bob


On Feb 24, 2012, at 8:30 AM, Mark Wieder wrote:

> Bob-
> 
> Friday, February 24, 2012, 8:23:47 AM, you wrote:
> 
>> I even put it before most variables because "into theFgColor" is
>> more readable to me.
> 
> I was with you up to that point. I find that using the "the" prefix is
> more error-prone that the shorthand form of "t" even though it's less
> immediately recognizable as readable language. With your example there
> probably wouldn't be a problem, but if you had said "theForeColor" you
> would run the risk of slipping up and typing "the ForeColor" somewhere
> in the script. There wouldn't be any compiler error, but your script
> wouldn't do what you expect and you'd have a merry time figuring out
> what was going on there.
> 
> -- 
> -Mark Wieder
> mwie...@ahsoftware.net
> 
> 
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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Pete]

Try looking at the younger generation's text messages some time!

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Devin Asay  wrote:

>
> On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:34 AM, Mark Wieder wrote:
>
> > Jacque-
> >
> > Thursday, February 23, 2012, 7:20:40 PM, you wrote:
> >
> >>> set foreColor of fld "myField" to blue
> >
> > I'll double down on your rant.
> > 
> > Since when is "fld" easier to read than "field"? You save typing two
> > vowels and end up with a thing that's not a word in any language I
> > know of. Same thing with "btn", etc. That's a step away from either
> > English-like or natural language processing - your brain has to do a
> > cognitive dance from the vowelless thing (shades of H.P. Lovecraft) to
> > a real word, and then can continue with the rest of the phrase to make
> > sense of the statement.
> > 
>
> I dnt knw wht yr tlkng abt. Sms prfctly ntrl to me.
>
> :)
>
> Devin
>
> Devin Asay
> Humanities Technology and Research Support Center
> Brigham Young University
>
>
>
>
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-- 
Pete
Molly's Revenge 
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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Bob Sneidar]

Because a statement has to be true or not in order to proceed. This is the very 
point the instructor in the video was making about the ambiguity of natural 
languages and their inability to be properly implemented in a development 
language. Do you mean the field object itself, or do you mean the text in the 
field after you hit a bunch of non printing characters? 

Bob


On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:19 AM, Phil Jimmieson wrote:

> The one that always makes me have to think twice is
> 
>   if the visible of field "X" is true then
> 
> Why not:
> 
>   if field "X" is visible then
> 
> I usually start out by writing the latter and then remember it has to be the 
> former...
> 
> On 24 Feb 2012, at 07:47, Jerry Jensen wrote:
> 
>> I think pseudo-natural language is as goofy as any other.
>> 
>> What you expect when you type into the msg box:
>> put me into it; put it
>> 
>> How about:
>> get me; put it
>> 
>> At least that one is a bit reassuring...
>> 
>> ??
>> 
>> 
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> 
> --
> Phil Jimmieson  p...@liverpool.ac.uk  (UK) 0151 795 4236  (Mobile) 07976 
> 983164
> Computer Science Dept., Liverpool University, Ashton Building, Ashton Street
> Liverpool L69 3BX  http://www.csc.liv.ac.uk/~phil/
> I used to sit on a special medical board... ...but now I use this ointment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Mark Wieder]

Bob-

Friday, February 24, 2012, 8:23:47 AM, you wrote:

> I even put it before most variables because "into theFgColor" is
> more readable to me.

I was with you up to that point. I find that using the "the" prefix is
more error-prone that the shorthand form of "t" even though it's less
immediately recognizable as readable language. With your example there
probably wouldn't be a problem, but if you had said "theForeColor" you
would run the risk of slipping up and typing "the ForeColor" somewhere
in the script. There wouldn't be any compiler error, but your script
wouldn't do what you expect and you'd have a merry time figuring out
what was going on there.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Bob Sneidar]

This takes us back to what I originally said, that writing compact code is at 
odds with the goals of Hypertext based languages. Language-like code has things 
like pronouns, determiners, prepositions etc. It is by nature verbose. If we 
had to write everything including the engine and the event management, write 
our own C or Java code to build fields, buttons, menus, windows etc, using the 
LC language, we would never get started. Too much typing. 

Bob


On Feb 23, 2012, at 11:34 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

> Jacque-
> 
> Thursday, February 23, 2012, 7:20:40 PM, you wrote:
> 
>>> set foreColor of fld "myField" to blue
> 
> I'll double down on your rant.
> 
> Since when is "fld" easier to read than "field"? You save typing two
> vowels and end up with a thing that's not a word in any language I
> know of. Same thing with "btn", etc. That's a step away from either
> English-like or natural language processing - your brain has to do a
> cognitive dance from the vowelless thing (shades of H.P. Lovecraft) to
> a real word, and then can continue with the rest of the phrase to make
> sense of the statement.
> 
> 
> -- 
> -Mark Wieder
> mwie...@ahsoftware.net
> 
> 
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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Bob Sneidar]

Aye but he wanted shorthand. I always use THE where I can, even when referring 
to cursors :-). I even put it before most variables because "into theFgColor" 
is more readable to me. 

Bob


On Feb 23, 2012, at 7:20 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:

> On 2/23/12 6:46 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote:
> 
>> set foreColor of fld "myField" to blue
> 
> I'm hijacking this thread to complain about my pet peeve. The above syntax 
> makes me crazy. Lots and lots and lots (and maybe more) well established 
> developers use it, it works, there's nothing wrong with it, it's fine. But 
> the missing "the" makes me stumble every time I read a line like that.
> 
> I think it bothers a certain engineer too because he once threatened to make 
> the engine refuse to compile scripts if the "the" was missing. Fortunately he 
> didn't follow through.
> 
> It is inconsistent to allow omission of "the" for engine properties but 
> require it for our own. Enforcing consistent use of "the" would help new 
> LiveCoders avoid pitfalls. And as long as we're talking about natural 
> language, "the" belongs in there.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that all that is over with, I'll confess that I simply cannot write "set 
> the cursor to..." because it looks strange to me. I have to write "set cursor 
> to..." But that's the only one. So I suggest the engine enforce all "the"s 
> except for the single exception when referring to cursors. :P
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Bob Sneidar]

God save us from that. I think this underscores why the A in AI is a misnomer. 
The Intelligence behind how any computer behaves will always be a person, 
deciding what things a computer can do in response to input and when. That 
Intelligence is anything but artificial. 

Bob


On Feb 23, 2012, at 6:23 PM, Kay C Lan wrote:

> Then again, I guess that might be the key to true AI, to introduce
> ambiguity into the mix, so when you turn on a computer it might let you
> check your emails or it might sulk because you haven't used it for a while.


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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Devin Asay]

On Feb 24, 2012, at 12:34 AM, Mark Wieder wrote:

> Jacque-
> 
> Thursday, February 23, 2012, 7:20:40 PM, you wrote:
> 
>>> set foreColor of fld "myField" to blue
> 
> I'll double down on your rant.
> 
> Since when is "fld" easier to read than "field"? You save typing two
> vowels and end up with a thing that's not a word in any language I
> know of. Same thing with "btn", etc. That's a step away from either
> English-like or natural language processing - your brain has to do a
> cognitive dance from the vowelless thing (shades of H.P. Lovecraft) to
> a real word, and then can continue with the rest of the phrase to make
> sense of the statement.
> 

I dnt knw wht yr tlkng abt. Sms prfctly ntrl to me.

:)

Devin

Devin Asay
Humanities Technology and Research Support Center
Brigham Young University




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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Keith Clarke]

...indeed - gets me every time - why not 'the visibility of...' as a pseudonym

Non-ambiguous syntax can still be made to seem a tad more naturalistic if the 
correct usage is grammatically correct.
Best,
Keith..

On 24 Feb 2012, at 08:19, Phil Jimmieson wrote:

> The one that always makes me have to think twice is
> 
>   if the visible of field "X" is true then
> 
> Why not:
> 
>   if field "X" is visible then
> 
> I usually start out by writing the latter and then remember it has to be the 
> former...
> 
> On 24 Feb 2012, at 07:47, Jerry Jensen wrote:
> 
>> I think pseudo-natural language is as goofy as any other.
>> 
>> What you expect when you type into the msg box:
>> put me into it; put it
>> 
>> How about:
>> get me; put it
>> 
>> At least that one is a bit reassuring...
>> 
>> ??
>> 
>> 
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>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
>> preferences:
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> 
> --
> Phil Jimmieson  p...@liverpool.ac.uk  (UK) 0151 795 4236  (Mobile) 07976 
> 983164
> Computer Science Dept., Liverpool University, Ashton Building, Ashton Street
> Liverpool L69 3BX  http://www.csc.liv.ac.uk/~phil/
> I used to sit on a special medical board... ...but now I use this ointment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Phil Jimmieson]

The one that always makes me have to think twice is

if the visible of field "X" is true then

Why not:

if field "X" is visible then

I usually start out by writing the latter and then remember it has to be the 
former...

On 24 Feb 2012, at 07:47, Jerry Jensen wrote:

> I think pseudo-natural language is as goofy as any other.
> 
> What you expect when you type into the msg box:
> put me into it; put it
> 
> How about:
> get me; put it
> 
> At least that one is a bit reassuring...
> 
> ??
> 
> 
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--
Phil Jimmieson  p...@liverpool.ac.uk  (UK) 0151 795 4236  (Mobile) 07976 983164
Computer Science Dept., Liverpool University, Ashton Building, Ashton Street
Liverpool L69 3BX  http://www.csc.liv.ac.uk/~phil/
I used to sit on a special medical board... ...but now I use this ointment.





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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Jerry Jensen]

I think pseudo-natural language is as goofy as any other.

What you expect when you type into the msg box:
put me into it; put it

How about:
get me; put it

At least that one is a bit reassuring...

??


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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Mark Wieder]

Jacque-

Thursday, February 23, 2012, 7:20:40 PM, you wrote:

>> set foreColor of fld "myField" to blue

I'll double down on your rant.

Since when is "fld" easier to read than "field"? You save typing two
vowels and end up with a thing that's not a word in any language I
know of. Same thing with "btn", etc. That's a step away from either
English-like or natural language processing - your brain has to do a
cognitive dance from the vowelless thing (shades of H.P. Lovecraft) to
a real word, and then can continue with the rest of the phrase to make
sense of the statement.


-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Vokey, John]

I always enjoyed the ambiguity of the title of one of James Watson's books: 
"Avoid Boring People" as to why "natural" languages should be avoided in 
programming, not because they are inherently bad, but because they require 
setting too large of a context to render most statements clear.  OTH, I find 
the abstemiousness of some who abjure statements such as x = 10 (in BASIC, 
Fortran, et al.) because they are, allegedly, inherently ambiguous to be just 
silly (cf. C, Pascal, R programmers, et al.).  Context *is* everything.
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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Alejandro Tejada]

Hi Bob,


slylabs13 wrote
> 
> Well the goal of Hypertext based programming was and is to make the
> programming language as like a normal dialect as possible, so code would
> be easier to read and write. This by nature causes a certain degree of
> verbosity.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> is not all that tedious, and I find it quicker and easier to code this
> way. Also, many here who have experience in other languages will tell you
> that the amount of code required to do almost anything in LC is far, far
> less than in other environments. Remember, we do not have to write the
> code that creates fields, buttons, menus etc. neither do we have to write
> the engine that sends messages to them and interprets user interaction for
> us. Most of the work has already been done for us! Now THAT is what I call
> Compact Coding!!
> 

Well said, Bob! :-D

Now, we only need that one of the web communication
experts in this platform recreate this python code
and we could compare which is shorter, faster and
legible... :-)

Al

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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[J. Landman Gay]

On 2/23/12 6:46 PM, Bob Sneidar wrote:


set foreColor of fld "myField" to blue


I'm hijacking this thread to complain about my pet peeve. The above 
syntax makes me crazy. Lots and lots and lots (and maybe more) well 
established developers use it, it works, there's nothing wrong with it, 
it's fine. But the missing "the" makes me stumble every time I read a 
line like that.


I think it bothers a certain engineer too because he once threatened to 
make the engine refuse to compile scripts if the "the" was missing. 
Fortunately he didn't follow through.


It is inconsistent to allow omission of "the" for engine properties but 
require it for our own. Enforcing consistent use of "the" would help new 
LiveCoders avoid pitfalls. And as long as we're talking about natural 
language, "the" belongs in there.




Now that all that is over with, I'll confess that I simply cannot write 
"set the cursor to..." because it looks strange to me. I have to write 
"set cursor to..." But that's the only one. So I suggest the engine 
enforce all "the"s except for the single exception when referring to 
cursors. :P


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Kay C Lan]

On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 8:13 AM, Michael Chean  wrote:

> His first argument re: ambiguity doesn't hold water for me.  Anyone who has
> tried to decipher another
> persons code can attest to how ambiguous programming languages can be.
>

But wasn't that the point.

No matter how many compatible computers you run that code on, the answer
will always be the same. No ambiguity.

For humans though, we can read it differently, and will, and some will
mistakenly think it does xyz not abc.

Therefore, computer languages can be 'English like' but not like natural
English. Then again, I guess that might be the key to true AI, to introduce
ambiguity into the mix, so when you turn on a computer it might let you
check your emails or it might sulk because you haven't used it for a while.
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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Bob Sneidar]

Well the goal of Hypertext based programming was and is to make the programming 
language as like a normal dialect as possible, so code would be easier to read 
and write. This by nature causes a certain degree of verbosity. Obviously:

theTruth = iif(true,true,iif(true,true,false)) 

is quite a bit less verbose than:

if true then
  put true into theTruth
else
  if true then
put true into theTruth
  else
put false into theTruth
  end if
end if

But replace those trues and falses with real commands and functions and the 
first case becomes a pig to follow while the second does not have to be so. 
Another way to put it is that the goals of writing compact code is naturally at 
odds with the goals of hypertext based programming. 

there is some shorthand you can employ in LC. Object types can be abbreviated 
for instance. Instead of background you can use bg. Instead of foregroundColor 
you can use foreColor or fillFore. bottomRight becomes botRight and so on. So:

set foreColor of fld "myField" to blue

is not all that tedious, and I find it quicker and easier to code this way. 
Also, many here who have experience in other languages will tell you that the 
amount of code required to do almost anything in LC is far, far less than in 
other environments. Remember, we do not have to write the code that creates 
fields, buttons, menus etc. neither do we have to write the engine that sends 
messages to them and interprets user interaction for us. Most of the work has 
already been done for us! Now THAT is what I call Compact Coding!!

Bob


On Feb 23, 2012, at 4:13 PM, Michael Chean wrote:

> His first argument re: ambiguity doesn't hold water for me.  Anyone who has
> tried to decipher another
> persons code can attest to how ambiguous programming languages can be.
> The second argument though, due to my recent exposure to LiveCode, I find
> true.  LiveCode is verbose.
> As I've mentioned in another thread there should be a shorthand.  I
> mentioned the use of 'with' to
> avoid the repetition of the context of a loop.  There must be other places
> where this might be applied, and perhaps
> it's my inexperience talking that I'm not aware of them.  Further leaving
> off words like 'the' in the script
> cause the line to not compile, with a not very clear error.  This was a
> real eye opener for me, and not a very pleasant one.  Please correct me if
> I'm wrong here btw.
> 
> Mike


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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Michael Chean]

His first argument re: ambiguity doesn't hold water for me.  Anyone who has
tried to decipher another
persons code can attest to how ambiguous programming languages can be.
The second argument though, due to my recent exposure to LiveCode, I find
true.  LiveCode is verbose.
As I've mentioned in another thread there should be a shorthand.  I
mentioned the use of 'with' to
avoid the repetition of the context of a loop.  There must be other places
where this might be applied, and perhaps
it's my inexperience talking that I'm not aware of them.  Further leaving
off words like 'the' in the script
cause the line to not compile, with a not very clear error.  This was a
real eye opener for me, and not a very pleasant one.  Please correct me if
I'm wrong here btw.

Mike

On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 2:44 PM, Dave Cragg wrote:

>
> On 23 Feb 2012, at 22:01, Bob Sneidar wrote:
>
> > I find his arguments ludicrous. Let me see some examples of english like
> programming languages where a command could mean two different things
> without any arguments supplied. What a preposterous thing to say! I can
> only think he came right out of college into whatever teaching position he
> now holds. BTW this is the kind of "my way is better than your way" of
> thinking I alluded to in another post. For example, almost all the people I
> have ever talked to in the past who *hate* Apple computers (their words not
> mine) have never actually used one. This guy has obviously (as Al points
> out) never actually USED an english like development language.
> >
> > Bob
>
> Being a bit harsh, aren't you, Bob? I don't think he was referring to
> "English-like" but rather "natural English". I don't think it's the same
> thing. Livecode can be described as "English-like", but probably not
> "natural English".  I could be wrong, in which case, as they say in these
> parts, send the apologies of me to the target.
>
> end Dave
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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Bob Sneidar]

I guess I jumped the gun. I blame my Viking ancestry. :-)

Bob


On Feb 23, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Dave Cragg wrote:

> I may have misunderstood him too. But I interpreted the second video in the 
> context of a teacher having run through the students' first programming 
> lesson (in this case Python), and then asking generally, "so why do we have 
> to learn a computer language rather than use a language we already know such 
> as English or Mandarin?". And the answer - perhaps badly illustrated -  
> computers need to be given unambiguous instructions. In a Livecode context, 
> we might ask why we have to write "on mouseUp" and not "on mouseClick" (or 
> why not " when the mouse is clicked") 
> 
> So I took his point to be that computer languages are different from human 
> languages. 
> 
> 
> On 23 Feb 2012, at 23:15, Bob Sneidar wrote:
> 
>> I may have misunderstood him then. I am not sure what the distinction 
>> between English-like and natural English programming languages is however. 
>> Give me an example of a natural english programming language if you please. 
>> I have not ever heard of anything except hypertext based languages, because 
>> the consensus was waaay back in the day that you could only go so far to 
>> make a programming language like a spoken one before all kinds of problems 
>> enter in. It has been my understanding that Hypertalk and it's derivatives 
>> is as far as it has gone. It also seemed to me that he was making the case 
>> that languages like the one Livecode uses are inferior to Python and not to 
>> be considered because they are too arbitrary. Again, I may have 
>> misunderstood him. 
> 
> 
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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Mark Wieder]

Bob Sneidar  writes:

> 
> I may have misunderstood him then. I am not sure what the distinction between
English-like and natural
> English programming languages is however.

English-like:

filter tData with "From:*"

natural English:

keep only those lines in tData that start with "From:"

English-like syntax allows us to avoid ambiguities in natural English like

"Is the turkey ready to eat yet?" or
"I left her behind for you"

In the video, the word "biweekly" is the Schrodinger's Cat of natural language
computer processing... until we assign a definition to the term its nature is
ambiguous, and has two mutually-exclusive definitions. Once we decide on a
definition for the term it can be used in an English-like program, whether or
not that definition fits the real-world natural English definition.

-- 
 Mark Wieder




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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Dave Cragg]

I may have misunderstood him too. But I interpreted the second video in the 
context of a teacher having run through the students' first programming lesson 
(in this case Python), and then asking generally, "so why do we have to learn a 
computer language rather than use a language we already know such as English or 
Mandarin?". And the answer - perhaps badly illustrated -  computers need to be 
given unambiguous instructions. In a Livecode context, we might ask why we have 
to write "on mouseUp" and not "on mouseClick" (or why not " when the mouse is 
clicked") 

So I took his point to be that computer languages are different from human 
languages. 


On 23 Feb 2012, at 23:15, Bob Sneidar wrote:

> I may have misunderstood him then. I am not sure what the distinction between 
> English-like and natural English programming languages is however. Give me an 
> example of a natural english programming language if you please. I have not 
> ever heard of anything except hypertext based languages, because the 
> consensus was waaay back in the day that you could only go so far to make a 
> programming language like a spoken one before all kinds of problems enter in. 
> It has been my understanding that Hypertalk and it's derivatives is as far as 
> it has gone. It also seemed to me that he was making the case that languages 
> like the one Livecode uses are inferior to Python and not to be considered 
> because they are too arbitrary. Again, I may have misunderstood him. 


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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Bob Sneidar]

I may have misunderstood him then. I am not sure what the distinction between 
English-like and natural English programming languages is however. Give me an 
example of a natural english programming language if you please. I have not 
ever heard of anything except hypertext based languages, because the consensus 
was waaay back in the day that you could only go so far to make a programming 
language like a spoken one before all kinds of problems enter in. It has been 
my understanding that Hypertalk and it's derivatives is as far as it has gone. 
It also seemed to me that he was making the case that languages like the one 
Livecode uses are inferior to Python and not to be considered because they are 
too arbitrary. Again, I may have misunderstood him. 

Bob


On Feb 23, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Dave Cragg wrote:

> 
> On 23 Feb 2012, at 22:01, Bob Sneidar wrote:
> 
>> I find his arguments ludicrous. Let me see some examples of english like 
>> programming languages where a command could mean two different things 
>> without any arguments supplied. What a preposterous thing to say! I can only 
>> think he came right out of college into whatever teaching position he now 
>> holds. BTW this is the kind of "my way is better than your way" of thinking 
>> I alluded to in another post. For example, almost all the people I have ever 
>> talked to in the past who *hate* Apple computers (their words not mine) have 
>> never actually used one. This guy has obviously (as Al points out) never 
>> actually USED an english like development language. 
>> 
>> Bob
> 
> Being a bit harsh, aren't you, Bob? I don't think he was referring to 
> "English-like" but rather "natural English". I don't think it's the same 
> thing. Livecode can be described as "English-like", but probably not "natural 
> English".  I could be wrong, in which case, as they say in these parts, send 
> the apologies of me to the target.
> 
> end Dave
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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Dave Cragg]

On 23 Feb 2012, at 22:01, Bob Sneidar wrote:

> I find his arguments ludicrous. Let me see some examples of english like 
> programming languages where a command could mean two different things without 
> any arguments supplied. What a preposterous thing to say! I can only think he 
> came right out of college into whatever teaching position he now holds. BTW 
> this is the kind of "my way is better than your way" of thinking I alluded to 
> in another post. For example, almost all the people I have ever talked to in 
> the past who *hate* Apple computers (their words not mine) have never 
> actually used one. This guy has obviously (as Al points out) never actually 
> USED an english like development language. 
> 
> Bob

Being a bit harsh, aren't you, Bob? I don't think he was referring to 
"English-like" but rather "natural English". I don't think it's the same thing. 
Livecode can be described as "English-like", but probably not "natural 
English".  I could be wrong, in which case, as they say in these parts, send 
the apologies of me to the target.

end Dave
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Re: Why him does not use a natural language for programming?

[Bob Sneidar]

I find his arguments ludicrous. Let me see some examples of english like 
programming languages where a command could mean two different things without 
any arguments supplied. What a preposterous thing to say! I can only think he 
came right out of college into whatever teaching position he now holds. BTW 
this is the kind of "my way is better than your way" of thinking I alluded to 
in another post. For example, almost all the people I have ever talked to in 
the past who *hate* Apple computers (their words not mine) have never actually 
used one. This guy has obviously (as Al points out) never actually USED an 
english like development language. 

Bob


On Feb 23, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Alejandro Tejada wrote:

> Look here:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_81jDNLq2g
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lNWFzAJWys
> 
> This is part of the videos of this free course about building webcrawlers:
> http://www.udacity.com/view#Course/cs101/CourseRev/feb2012/Unit/2001/Nugget/1002
> 
> Interesting enough, I believe than the real answer is not that ambiguous.
> He does not know about LiveCode...
> 
> Al
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/Why-him-does-not-use-a-natural-language-for-programming-tp4415191p4415191.html
> Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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