AW: AW: What happens when enabling Hi-DPI scaling?

[Tiemo Hollmann TB]

Thanks for the detailed explanations!
Tiemo


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] Im Auftrag
von Mark Waddingham
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. Oktober 2015 20:23
An: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Betreff: Re: AW: What happens when enabling Hi-DPI scaling?

On 2015-10-27 14:56, Tiemo Hollmann TB wrote:
> Thanks Mark for jumping in!
> If I understood you correct, things even get crisper and not blurred 
> with Hi-DPI enabled on a Hi-DPI monitor and keep as they are on a 
> standard monitor. So my conclusion would be to enable it always by 
> standard (since it is anyway standard on OS X)

Yes - this is the ideal situation :)

> What could be a reason not to enable Hi-DPI scaling on Windows or with 
> other words, why is it an option?

Ah - well - the APIs we currently use on Windows are a bit of a dinosaur in
terms text rendering. We still use 'GDI' which has the unfortunate problem
that text does not linearly scale.

What this means is that the size of a piece of text rendered with GDI at
scale factor 1.0 is not necessarily the same as the same text rendered at
scale factor 2.0. This is down to the TrueType hinting and other methods it
employs which you cannot actually turn off (this hinting can be quite
aggressive - its goal was to ensure text rendered at low screen resolutions
was still highly readable without anti-aliasing - and tends to alter the
horizontal width to varying degrees for different fonts).

We've not actually managed to find a way to solve this problem 'well' 
yet - particularly as we still have to support XP (given its market share is
still quite considerable!).

So, you do need to check your app in Hi-DPI mode on windows (by adjusting
the text scale factor in settings, as previously mentioned) and make sure it
still looks the way you need it to.

You *can* try and set the 'useIdealLayout' property of the stack if there
are visual problems - this will make the text render in the appropriately
'linearly scalable' way. However, it does have a performance and visual
difference impact - the text will be slightly fuzzier, and will take a
little longer to render.

Hope this helps!

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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AW: What happens when enabling Hi-DPI scaling?

[Tiemo Hollmann TB]

Sometimes when I don't get any answers on a post, I wonder if the reason
was, that the issue is so exotic, that nobody else has experienced it and
can't help, or that the issue is just so basic, that it is too self-evident
to answer.
I try to ask a more simple question
Do you enable "Hi-DPI scaling" in the standalone settings for windows since
6.7.7 by standard or never? (I can't test the difference myself, not having
a Hi-DPI monitor)
Thanks
Tiemo



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] Im Auftrag
von Tiemo Hollmann TB
Gesendet: Montag, 26. Oktober 2015 10:52
An: LiveCode User Liste senden <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Betreff: What happens when enabling Hi-DPI scaling?

Hello,

since LC 6.7.6 or 6.7.7 you can enable Hi-DPI scaling in the standalone
builder settings for windows.

I don't have a Hi-DPI monitor and didn't found anything in the forum about
it, so I am unsure what happens with my stack if I would enable this
setting? What exactly happens when it says "if enabled, the stack will be
scaled to fit"? A Hi-Res monitor has a higher pixel density, but my program
windows and objects have fixed sizes in pixel. My understanding is, if I
don't enable this setting, my stacks will be displayed smaller on a Hi-DPI
monitor? Correct? And enabling this setting, are they scaled to the "same
appearance", as on a standard monitor? Or what happens? If yes, probably
images get blurred, when being scaled, so you shouldn't enable this option
when you use images, correct?

Why is the Hi-DPI support for Windows a chooseable option and for OS X it is
standard since 6.7.6 (6.7.7)? Do images don't get blurred, when the stack is
resized on OS X? Why can't I disable this option on OS X?

How do you handle this option? Do you always enable it?

Thanks for your experiences

Tiemo

 

 

 

 

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Re: What happens when enabling Hi-DPI scaling?

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2015-10-26 10:52, Tiemo Hollmann TB wrote:
I don't have a Hi-DPI monitor and didn't found anything in the forum 
about

it, so I am unsure what happens with my stack if I would enable this
setting? What exactly happens when it says "if enabled, the stack will 
be
scaled to fit"? A Hi-Res monitor has a higher pixel density, but my 
program
windows and objects have fixed sizes in pixel. My understanding is, if 
I
don't enable this setting, my stacks will be displayed smaller on a 
Hi-DPI
monitor? Correct? And enabling this setting, are they scaled to the 
"same
appearance", as on a standard monitor? Or what happens? If yes, 
probably
images get blurred, when being scaled, so you shouldn't enable this 
option

when you use images, correct?


Hi-DPI scaling makes it so that if the systems 'pixel scale' (the 
mapping from virtual pixels to physical pixels) is not 1-1, the engine 
will appropriately render things to use the 'extra fidelity'.


A stack which is 400x400 in LiveCode, will still appear to be 400x400 on 
a Retina display, say, except that it will actually be rendering at 
800x800 - making things crisper.


Depending on the version of Windows you are targetting, you can 
experiment with HiDPI by adjusting the 'text scaling' option in the 
system preferences.


Why is the Hi-DPI support for Windows a chooseable option and for OS X 
it is
standard since 6.7.6 (6.7.7)? Do images don't get blurred, when the 
stack is

resized on OS X? Why can't I disable this option on OS X?


Windows does not allow the runtime configuration of Hi-DPI 'pixel 
scaling' - it has to be specified as part of the Applications 'manifest' 
which is integrated at standalone build time.


Mac, however, does allow toggleing configuration of Hi-DPI 'pixel 
scaling' at runtime - see the 'usePixelScaling' option.


By default, the Mac engine will use as many pixels as it can - so if you 
have a retina display, you will get pixel scaling (but you can turn it 
off - set the usePixelScaling to false).


On Windows, by default pixel scaling is turned off, but you can choose 
to use it for your app by turning it on in the standalone builder.


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: AW: What happens when enabling Hi-DPI scaling?

[Scott Rossi]

Hold on  -- "useIdealLayout" is a real property?  When l think of all the
years I wasted fiddling with the design of projects...

on clientRequest
   create stack
   put it into theStack
   set the useIdealLayout of theStack to true
   save theStack
   deliver theStack
   send "vacation" to me in 5 seconds
end clientRequest


Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, UX/UI Design




On 10/27/15, 12:22 PM, "use-livecode on behalf of Mark Waddingham"

wrote:

>You *can* try and set the 'useIdealLayout' property of the stack if
>there are visual problems



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Re: AW: What happens when enabling Hi-DPI scaling?

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2015-10-27 20:50, Scott Rossi wrote:
Hold on  -- "useIdealLayout" is a real property?  When l think of all 
the

years I wasted fiddling with the design of projects...

on clientRequest
   create stack
   put it into theStack
   set the useIdealLayout of theStack to true
   save theStack
   deliver theStack
   send "vacation" to me in 5 seconds
end clientRequest


Haha - unfortunately it is nowhere near as impressive as that!

It causes text (on Windows) to be rendered as a path internally, and 
then painted to the target - this means that it doesn't suffer the 
'changing metrics' problem. It is actually what 'formatForPrinting' now 
sits on (on Windows) - meaning you can actually show a nice accurate 
print preview of layout of a stack without the drawbacks of that mode 
which used to exist (many versions ago).


Of course, I think I just noticed it never made it into the 
dictionary...


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: AW: What happens when enabling Hi-DPI scaling?

[Mark Waddingham]

On 2015-10-27 14:56, Tiemo Hollmann TB wrote:

Thanks Mark for jumping in!
If I understood you correct, things even get crisper and not blurred 
with

Hi-DPI enabled on a Hi-DPI monitor and keep as they are on a standard
monitor. So my conclusion would be to enable it always by standard 
(since it

is anyway standard on OS X)


Yes - this is the ideal situation :)

What could be a reason not to enable Hi-DPI scaling on Windows or with 
other

words, why is it an option?


Ah - well - the APIs we currently use on Windows are a bit of a dinosaur 
in terms text rendering. We still use 'GDI' which has the unfortunate 
problem that text does not linearly scale.


What this means is that the size of a piece of text rendered with GDI at 
scale factor 1.0 is not necessarily the same as the same text rendered 
at scale factor 2.0. This is down to the TrueType hinting and other 
methods it employs which you cannot actually turn off (this hinting can 
be quite aggressive - its goal was to ensure text rendered at low screen 
resolutions was still highly readable without anti-aliasing - and tends 
to alter the horizontal width to varying degrees for different fonts).


We've not actually managed to find a way to solve this problem 'well' 
yet - particularly as we still have to support XP (given its market 
share is still quite considerable!).


So, you do need to check your app in Hi-DPI mode on windows (by 
adjusting the text scale factor in settings, as previously mentioned) 
and make sure it still looks the way you need it to.


You *can* try and set the 'useIdealLayout' property of the stack if 
there are visual problems - this will make the text render in the 
appropriately 'linearly scalable' way. However, it does have a 
performance and visual difference impact - the text will be slightly 
fuzzier, and will take a little longer to render.


Hope this helps!

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: AW: What happens when enabling Hi-DPI scaling?

[J. Landman Gay]

On 10/27/2015 2:58 PM, Mark Waddingham wrote:


It causes text (on Windows) to be rendered as a path internally, and
then painted to the target - this means that it doesn't suffer the
'changing metrics' problem. It is actually what 'formatForPrinting' now
sits on (on Windows) - meaning you can actually show a nice accurate
print preview of layout of a stack without the drawbacks of that mode
which used to exist (many versions ago).

Of course, I think I just noticed it never made it into the dictionary...


I didn't even have to think, I looked it up and it wasn't there. :)

But since you're (presumably) about to add the term, is there a better 
word for it? Something indicating "text" somehow? Anyone looking for a 
property like that would probably do a search for "text".


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: What happens when enabling Hi-DPI scaling?

[Lyn Teyla]

Tiemo Hollmann TB wrote:

> Do you enable "Hi-DPI scaling" in the standalone settings for windows since
> 6.7.7 by standard or never? (I can't test the difference myself, not having
> a Hi-DPI monitor)


There's currently a bug relating to the Windows Hi-DPI status in the standalone 
settings window.

It *is* enabled by default, but often incorrectly shows up as being disabled in 
the settings window.

A temporary fix was provided by Panos at:

http://quality.runrev.com/show_bug.cgi?id=15694

Lyn




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AW: What happens when enabling Hi-DPI scaling?

[Tiemo Hollmann TB]

Thanks Mark for jumping in!
If I understood you correct, things even get crisper and not blurred with
Hi-DPI enabled on a Hi-DPI monitor and keep as they are on a standard
monitor. So my conclusion would be to enable it always by standard (since it
is anyway standard on OS X)
What could be a reason not to enable Hi-DPI scaling on Windows or with other
words, why is it an option?
Thanks
Tiemo


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] Im Auftrag
von Mark Waddingham
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. Oktober 2015 14:10
An: How to use LiveCode <use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>
Betreff: Re: What happens when enabling Hi-DPI scaling?

On 2015-10-26 10:52, Tiemo Hollmann TB wrote:
> I don't have a Hi-DPI monitor and didn't found anything in the forum 
> about it, so I am unsure what happens with my stack if I would enable 
> this setting? What exactly happens when it says "if enabled, the stack 
> will be scaled to fit"? A Hi-Res monitor has a higher pixel density, 
> but my program windows and objects have fixed sizes in pixel. My 
> understanding is, if I don't enable this setting, my stacks will be 
> displayed smaller on a Hi-DPI monitor? Correct? And enabling this 
> setting, are they scaled to the "same appearance", as on a standard 
> monitor? Or what happens? If yes, probably images get blurred, when 
> being scaled, so you shouldn't enable this option when you use images, 
> correct?

Hi-DPI scaling makes it so that if the systems 'pixel scale' (the mapping
from virtual pixels to physical pixels) is not 1-1, the engine will
appropriately render things to use the 'extra fidelity'.

A stack which is 400x400 in LiveCode, will still appear to be 400x400 on a
Retina display, say, except that it will actually be rendering at
800x800 - making things crisper.

Depending on the version of Windows you are targetting, you can experiment
with HiDPI by adjusting the 'text scaling' option in the system preferences.

> Why is the Hi-DPI support for Windows a chooseable option and for OS X 
> it is standard since 6.7.6 (6.7.7)? Do images don't get blurred, when 
> the stack is resized on OS X? Why can't I disable this option on OS X?

Windows does not allow the runtime configuration of Hi-DPI 'pixel scaling' -
it has to be specified as part of the Applications 'manifest' 
which is integrated at standalone build time.

Mac, however, does allow toggleing configuration of Hi-DPI 'pixel scaling'
at runtime - see the 'usePixelScaling' option.

By default, the Mac engine will use as many pixels as it can - so if you
have a retina display, you will get pixel scaling (but you can turn it off -
set the usePixelScaling to false).

On Windows, by default pixel scaling is turned off, but you can choose to
use it for your app by turning it on in the standalone builder.

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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What happens when enabling Hi-DPI scaling?

[Tiemo Hollmann TB]

Hello,

since LC 6.7.6 or 6.7.7 you can enable Hi-DPI scaling in the standalone
builder settings for windows.

I don't have a Hi-DPI monitor and didn't found anything in the forum about
it, so I am unsure what happens with my stack if I would enable this
setting? What exactly happens when it says "if enabled, the stack will be
scaled to fit"? A Hi-Res monitor has a higher pixel density, but my program
windows and objects have fixed sizes in pixel. My understanding is, if I
don't enable this setting, my stacks will be displayed smaller on a Hi-DPI
monitor? Correct? And enabling this setting, are they scaled to the "same
appearance", as on a standard monitor? Or what happens? If yes, probably
images get blurred, when being scaled, so you shouldn't enable this option
when you use images, correct?

Why is the Hi-DPI support for Windows a chooseable option and for OS X it is
standard since 6.7.6 (6.7.7)? Do images don't get blurred, when the stack is
resized on OS X? Why can't I disable this option on OS X?

How do you handle this option? Do you always enable it?

Thanks for your experiences

Tiemo

 

 

 

 

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