Re: standalone application problem

[Sarah Reichelt]

On 7/7/06, Michael Robinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I am having a problem with Revolution 2.7.2 that I never had with
previous versions!
After building a standalone application and opening it, the main
stack seems to  works OK, it is when you create a new file ( cloning
of a sub-stack ) the new file is created but does not work just
right, almost like it does not know who it is or where is located.

1) It will not open a drawer that is in a preopenstack handler until
it is closed and reopened 1 time, but it will open the drawer from
the menu the first time.

2) It will create a new document when the file is created, but will
not import information from another file until it is opened & closed
2 times.


Hi Mike,

I noticed you ask this a few days ago, but as I had no answers to
give, I didn't respond. As you are now tearing your hair out, I'll
suggest a few things to check.

When you clone your sub-stack, does it appear OK?
When you save it, does the save work? (check 'the result' after a save.)
After saving, check "the filename" of your new stack.
Is it saving in the default folder or are you specifying the complete path?
When you try to open it again, do you specify the complete path?
Remember that when you clone a stack, it is a mainStack and does not
inherit the scripts from your original mainStack. You can allow for
this, either by setting it's mainStack, or by "start using" your
original mainStack so it is available to all stacks, whether they are
it's own sub-stacks or not.
Is the preOpenStack message passed when you clone a stack? Maybe you
need to send it a few ticks after the cloning.
After cloning, try delaying subsequent things using send in time and
see if that helps.

As you can see, I don't really have any great ideas, but these
thoughts may get you started towards a diagnosis.

Cheers,
Sarah
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Re: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Rishi Viner]

On Friday 07 July 2006 04:47, Viktoras Didziulis wrote:
> I personally have Ubuntu linux (Debian family) installed on my laptop PC
> and PC as the second OS. 

Talking about different families of Linux is probably more relevant. The 
differences often come down to the package manager, mainly. 
Red Hat - RPM
Debian - APT
Gentoo - Portage
etc

Most of the other distros come in to the category of someone wanting to take 
one of those frameworks and make a new distro from it by tailoring it for a 
particular use, eg server, desktop, home theater, nubie, guru, live CD, 
commercial, free only or just "I can do it better". They don't start from 
scratch but use another distro in the family and branch off from it. 


> Regarding the criterions I would suggest taking compliance with LSB 3.1
> standard as the main criteria because that's what all the standard is
> for... All serious Linuxes should implement this standard.

Good choice and more productive to back the standard than a particular distro. 
You would probably get more mileage from just stating the requirements for 
Rev, than by stating compliance with a given distro. The distros change 
regularly, if you state compliance with SuSE you had better maintain that 
even though SuSE will have new versions out many times per year with 
significant differences. E.g. audio should soon be jumping from Alsa to Jack, 
probably across many distros. 

My 2c.

-- 
Rishi Viner
--
Australia
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Re: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Rishi Viner]

On Friday 07 July 2006 05:11, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> While I don't normally have much respect for RB marketing resources,
> SUSE makes a lot of sense.
>
> This set of videos shows a seriousness about usability not often found
> in other distros:
> 
>
> Sure, half of that is just OS X knockoffs, but if you're going to steal
> ideas they might as well steal good ones. :)
>
> Favoring Novell also returns a favor to the Rev community:  Novell has
> published a series of articles about using Rev on SUSE:
> 
> 
> 
>

I'd agree that SuSE is one of the better commercial options. If you are 
installing office wide and need something well supported, this is a great 
option. Novell really do seem to be going in the right direction here. 

I have 4 people in my office working productively on SuSE desktops, and all 
coming from low computer literacy backgrounds. SuSE is one of the first 
distros to get to the stage where I would let people loose on it and expect 
to get productive work "just done". 

> Who knows?  If enough of us pool our resources maybe we can push SUSE
> enough to kill off most of the others, ultimately benefiting everyone

Disagree with that. Choice is what makes Linux strong. What you should hope 
for is greater standards compliance across all the Linux families and desktop 
types... 

-- 
Rishi Viner
--
Australia

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Re: Dreamhost?

[Ruslan Zasukhin]

On 7/7/06 3:25 AM, "Dan Shafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi Jared,
Hi Dan,

> Dreamhost is cheap, reliable, well supported, and flexible. It doesn't
> incorporate Valentina but I'm sure you could deploy Valentina on its
> servers.

> On 7/6/06, Jared Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>> Is there a reason Dreamhost is popular? I've been looking for an easy
>> way to buy some hosting and use a Valentina database, but I don't see
>> too many hosting providers having that built-in other than MacServe...

I think this will require OS X or Windows dedicated server.

You can see that host providers mainly use mySQL.

Even Postgre is far far away from mySQL...
mainly because of historical reasons I think.

-- 
Best regards,

Ruslan Zasukhin
VP Engineering and New Technology
Paradigma Software, Inc

Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

[I feel the need: the need for speed]


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Re: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Sarah Reichelt]

On 7/7/06, Rishi Viner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Friday 07 July 2006 06:38, chris bohnert wrote:
> You'll get my gentoo box when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

Here here! And hello fellow Gentoo user!

Bob Warren:
"1. The distro runs or installs automatically (i.e. can be done by a
layman) and configures all normal hardware, even on old machines,
including Windows network printers, floppy diskette drives, etc."

On the face of it, Gentoo fails your point 1 dismally! Gentoo is anything but
a nice automated install. BUT in terms of hardware support, Gentoo will find
a way, where many other distros have failed time and again. I ended up first
installing Gentoo primarily due to other distros not being able to handle my
hardware. I learnt a lot along the way and think Gentoo is the best distro at
forcing you to actually learn how linux works.

The point is, diversity is the strength of Linux. There will always pop into
existence a distro that does what a certain group of users needs (no matter
how small). The best thing is there is always choice. Something the Mac/Win
models have always lacked.



Anyone who wants a laugh might like a look at the "Crazy Ubuntu Rumors Site" :-)


Cheers,
Sarah

P.S. Don't follow the link if you are offended by swearing.
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standalone application problem

[Michael Robinson]

I am having a problem with Revolution 2.7.2 that I never had with  
previous versions!
After building a standalone application and opening it, the main  
stack seems to  works OK, it is when you create a new file ( cloning  
of a sub-stack ) the new file is created but does not work just  
right, almost like it does not know who it is or where is located.


1) It will not open a drawer that is in a preopenstack handler until  
it is closed and reopened 1 time, but it will open the drawer from  
the menu the first time.


2) It will create a new document when the file is created, but will  
not import information from another file until it is opened & closed  
2 times.


This is driving me crazy!

PowerBook G4 15"
System Version: Mac OS X 10.4.7 (8J135)

I would appreciate some help

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Rishi Viner]

On Friday 07 July 2006 06:38, chris bohnert wrote:
> You'll get my gentoo box when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

Here here! And hello fellow Gentoo user!

Bob Warren:
"1. The distro runs or installs automatically (i.e. can be done by a 
layman) and configures all normal hardware, even on old machines, 
including Windows network printers, floppy diskette drives, etc."

On the face of it, Gentoo fails your point 1 dismally! Gentoo is anything but 
a nice automated install. BUT in terms of hardware support, Gentoo will find 
a way, where many other distros have failed time and again. I ended up first 
installing Gentoo primarily due to other distros not being able to handle my 
hardware. I learnt a lot along the way and think Gentoo is the best distro at 
forcing you to actually learn how linux works. 

The point is, diversity is the strength of Linux. There will always pop into 
existence a distro that does what a certain group of users needs (no matter 
how small). The best thing is there is always choice. Something the Mac/Win 
models have always lacked. 


-- 
Rishi Viner
--
Australia

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Re: Dependence on programming experts

[Dan Shafer]

Greg.

I'll take that discussion offlist. IT's definitely OT for this group.

Dan


On 7/6/06, GregSmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Dan:

I'd be open to any suggestions regarding which prototyping tool to use and
who you would recommend for collaboration.  I'd still like to speak more
with you about Squeak.

Thanks,

Greg Smith
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Dependence-on-programming-experts-tf1903486.html#a5210229
Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com.

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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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Re: Dreamhost?

[Stephen Barncard]

Mark - I host all things web at Dreamhost. They're great.

I haven't had time to experiment with Rev there yet, but I'm sure 
they'd work with you better than most ISPs. Not to mention they have 
great bandwidth (fast), storage (huge!!) and support. Their control 
panel is versatile and easy to use.

The cheapest plan is 9/mo  but subscribing for a year is a little cheaper.

If you need more, their 'code monster' plan is awesome.

sqb



Stephen Barncard turned me on to Dreamhost over a year ago and I am a
delighted client.

I seem to recall getting Rev CGI working there at one point but as I recall
I had some problem doing so. Stephen may be able to be more specific.

But for hosting, these guys are great.

On 7/6/06, Mark Wieder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


All-

I'm interested in getting away from JaguarPC's crappy hosting and
considering Dreamhost because I know there's some experience here on
the list with it, I like the fact that it's got RoR already installed,
and I like the features matrix. Any comments pro or con Dreamhost,
especially as a rev cgi host?

--
-Mark Wieder


--
stephen barncard
s a n  f r a n c i s c o
- - -  - - - - - - - - -
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RE: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Lynn Fredricks]

>   You may want to take a look at the Myst like game "Aida"  
> written in Revolution 
> 
> I don't know how much programming author had to do,  but he 
> claims that it took him about a week to get started 
> developing this game in Revolution and the web link above has 
> a  "case study" and game making Tutorial that may give you 
> some insights.

Something Id like to point out also is that the Adventure Creator template
in RevMedia was created after looking at both Myst and Alida. One item that
didn't make it in the first release was a dialog management system -
something that's currently a topic of discussion on the RevMedia forum.

Best regards,


Lynn Fredricks
Worldwide Business Operations
Runtime Revolution, Ltd


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Re: Dependence on programming experts

[GregSmith]

Dan:

I'd be open to any suggestions regarding which prototyping tool to use and
who you would recommend for collaboration.  I'd still like to speak more
with you about Squeak.

Thanks,

Greg Smith
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Dependence-on-programming-experts-tf1903486.html#a5210229
Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com.

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RE: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Lynn Fredricks]

Hi Bob,

> I'm not sure what you are asking either. If you are referring 
> to what I said at the beginning of the thread, I would 
> certainly not want Rev to test on only one version of Linux. 
> However, what I did suggest was special attention to a 
> restricted set of Linuxes (for various technical reasons), at 
> least at the moment.

I don't think its really feasible to shoot broadly at all Linuxes -
certainly a short list get the lion's share of attention and SuSE and RedHat
wouldn't be too far off the mark for special attention.


> As for the sentence about Rev missing the boat, what I meant 
> was that just as Rev failed to scoop up great numbers of VB6 
> orphans (of which I am one), it seems that they are also 
> failing to satisfy their users requiring an embedded browser 
> (in stark contrast to Realbasic). Note too that this question 
> has a direct relationship with recent discussions on the 
> UR-List regarding the use of the Internet, multimedia 
> delivery, embedding Rev stacks in browsers, etc. The only 
> difference is that the provision of an altBrowser-type 
> embedded browser is much more fundamental.
> 
> Regarding Realbasic's support of SUSE, I am not yet in a 
> position to give an opinion on whether it is a good or a bad 
> thing. What I do know regarding their embedded browser 
> (called "HTMLview") is that not only is it guaranteed to work 
> on SUSE, it also works great on my (unsupported) Ubuntu. 
> That's 100% better than I can do with Rev at the moment.

The lack of a browser control in Rev is...a lack :-) We feel it.

Since Altuit has been there to fill that need, its had a lower priority. I
don't know what exactly needs to be fixed for Altbrowser to do its thing on
Linux but Im sure when Linux gets the attention it needs, Chipp wont be shy
about reminding us :-)

Best regards,


Lynn Fredricks
Worldwide Business Operations
Runtime Revolution, Ltd


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Re: Dreamhost?

[Andre Garzia]

Mark,

I use JaguarPC everyday and with Rev, what is your problem there,  
maybe I can help...


Cheers
andre

On Jul 6, 2006, at 4:46 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:


All-

I'm interested in getting away from JaguarPC's crappy hosting and
considering Dreamhost because I know there's some experience here on
the list with it, I like the fact that it's got RoR already installed,
and I like the features matrix. Any comments pro or con Dreamhost,
especially as a rev cgi host?

--
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Re: Dreamhost?

[Dan Shafer]

Dreamhost is cheap, reliable, well supported, and flexible. It doesn't
incorporate Valentina but I'm sure you could deploy Valentina on its
servers.

On 7/6/06, Jared Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Is there a reason Dreamhost is popular? I've been looking for an easy
way to buy some hosting and use a Valentina database, but I don't see
too many hosting providers having that built-in other than MacServe...

On 7/6/06, Dan Shafer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Stephen Barncard turned me on to Dreamhost over a year ago and I am a
> delighted client.
>
> I seem to recall getting Rev CGI working there at one point but as I
recall
> I had some problem doing so. Stephen may be able to be more specific.
>
> But for hosting, these guys are great.
>
> On 7/6/06, Mark Wieder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > All-
> >
> > I'm interested in getting away from JaguarPC's crappy hosting and
> > considering Dreamhost because I know there's some experience here on
> > the list with it, I like the fact that it's got RoR already installed,
> > and I like the features matrix. Any comments pro or con Dreamhost,
> > especially as a rev cgi host?
> >
> > --
> > -Mark Wieder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > ___
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>
>
>
> --
> ~~
> Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
> http://www.shafermedia.com
> Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
> >From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html
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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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Re: Dependence on programming experts

[Dan Shafer]

Greg..

This is the best idea I personally can come up with after reading this whole
thread twice.

You should find a tool that lets you design and prototype your ideas. Then
hire someone (or find a technical partner who will share the revenue with
you) to do the actual coding. Your concepts are very high-level and
(frankly) pretty darned exciting. But my sense from reading between the
lines here is that you'll enjoy the design and architecture process a hell
of a lot more than  you'll enjoy programming regardless of the tool or
language you choose.

FWIW
--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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Re: Dependence on programming experts

[Dan Shafer]

Without putting too fine a point on things or getting into YARLW (Yet
Another Religious Language War), Transcript is object-LIKE, just as
HyperCard was. It may some day become fully object oriented but OO is only
useful in the context of a much larger development universe than what most
of us use it for anyway.

On 7/6/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Regarding Revolution and   object-oriented programming, it seems to me
that
Revolution, which I have been actively using for the past two years, does
do
that since one can save useful scripts (sometimes long, complex ones) from
one
application and apply in another without having to start from scratch.
Indeed, I have been saving a number of scripts that participants in this
panel have
suggested over the past two years and found them helpful in a number of
different projects.   It is sort of like having a collection of clip art
objects
that one can combine to create different works of art.
Steve Goldberg
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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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Re: Of Lists and Dependence

[J. Landman Gay]

Scott Rossi wrote:

Execute the following in your Revolution message box:

  go url "http://www.i-view.net/tactile/noiz.rev";


LOL!! Hint taken. :)

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[GregSmith]

Dan:

I'd like to continue our Smalltalk/Squeak discussion, but not necessarily on
this thread or on this forum.  I still have a few questions regarding some
small but specific functionality.  Would this be acceptable to you?

Thanks for your encouragement and direction,

Greg Smith
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Dependence-on-Programming-Experts-tf1893108.html#a5209680
Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com.

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Re: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Bob Warren]

Viktoras Didziulis wrote:
>
I personally have Ubuntu linux (Debian family) installed on my laptop PC 
and PC as the second OS. Really happy with this. Earlier have tried 
Fedora Core, but this one used to have some annoyances with laptops and 
multimedia. Then switched to Scientific Linux, multimedia was OK, still 
the main annoyance was corrupted RPM and updating system due to the bug 
in Red Hat family Linuxes. They likely got fixed this now, but as I have 
already switched to Ubuntu - not going back to Red Hat  ;-) .


Regarding the criterions I would suggest taking compliance with LSB 3.1
standard as the main criteria because that's what all the standard is for...
All serious Linuxes should implement this standard.

Linuxes that are closiest to the imlementation of the LSB 3.1 are: 
Xandros, Red Hat, Novel, Ubuntu. Also Debian Common Core (DCC) Alliance 
- this means all Linuxes based on the stable Debian 3.1 (Sarge) are 
aiming at LSB 3.1.

The DCC includes Knoppix, LinEx, Linspire, etc...

--
Thanks for this great info Viktoras! Of course the adoption of such 
standards is very important, and we might presume that eventually 
various Linuxes will adhere to them. However, "ordinary" (non-geeky) 
users such as myself are more worried about whether they can use PPT, 
DOC, AVI, MP3, MPG,...and (dare I mention it?) MIDI files as they 
might have done using Windows, with easily-installable utility programs 
for displaying/editing them, and without hassle regarding broken 
packages, missing codecs, etc. I am not sure to what degree these things 
are provided for in the LSB 3.1 standard, but what I do know is that so 
far I have not managed to play such files in the great majority of the 
Linuxes I have tried. What I suggested at the beginning of this thread 
is that perhaps Rev could consider this aspect seriously before giving 
its "seal of approval". In the last analysis, it's not much good if a 
given Linux distro theoretically supports a standard, but in the reality 
of its practice it either does not adhere to the standard, or regardless 
of the standard, produces a lousy Linux in this respect. In other words, 
a distro needs to prove itself to be good in real terms before Rev is 
prepared to recommend that its users should write programs for it. But 
perhaps I am asking a lot... Certainly, Rev getting luvvy-duvvy with 
one or more of the Linux producers (as I recommended a long time ago) 
would on the face of it be beneficial to both parties, and if Rev and 
Ubuntu got married to some degree, or even had a passing love-affair, I 
would, like you, be a happy man.


Regards,
Bob



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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Dan Shafer]

Rodney.

I'm not interested in starting a language war. And I'm a huge fan of both
smalltalk and Rev, as I imagine almost everyone here knows by now.

But your opinion about Smalltalk is so wrong based on *my* experience that I
can't let it stand. Let's just say our experiences differ. I've built much
larger systems in Smalltalk than I've bulit in Rev. By far. I just want Greg
to know that there's more than one viewpoint on the subject.

On 7/6/06, Rodney Somerstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The main problem, in my view, is that Smalltalk environments are
pretty much unlike anything else you will encounter on your computer.
Yes, you can learn programming concepts. But, you will then likely
end up learning another language afterward to produce usable
software. Unfortunate, but that is the current state of the art. As
Smalltalk has been around for a long time, that is unlikely to change
anytime in the near future.



--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[GregSmith]

Bj?rnke:

Thanks for the encouraging and informative words.  You understand that we
are just trying to get to the bottom of things, I know.

Greg Smith
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Dependence-on-Programming-Experts-tf1893108.html#a5209591
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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Tariel Gogoberidze]

Greg,

Concerning your first would be project, it probably would take more 
than one tool to accomplish such task.


 You may want to take a look at the Myst like game "Aida"  written in 
Revolution 


I don't know how much programming author had to do,  but he claims that 
it took him about a week to get started developing this game in 
Revolution and the web link above has a  "case study" and game making  
Tutorial that may give you some insights.


As for SmallTalk, after you scratch the surface you will probably 
discover that some programming / coding skills would be required there 
as well and I don't think that programing in SmallTalk is  less 
challenging than it is in Revolution


best regards
Tariel

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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Thomas McGrath III]

Dear Greg,

You are wrong! The materials do exist and you have been given the  
info to get them. If you want to learn alone then go get the  
resources that have been mentioned and drop this thread.



Tom

On Jul 6, 2006, at 12:07 PM, GregSmith wrote:



I'll just repeat what I initially stated:

I think multimedia authoring software should be intuitive enough,  
and well
documented enough to allow a fairly non-technical user to do  
amazing things

without constantly needing to ask assistance from local forum gurus.

The foundational educational material for learning Revolution from the
standpoint of a total non-programmer seems to be missing.  That's  
the gist

of my own personal dilemma.

I do appreciate most of your replies, but having to go through this  
kind of
verbal ordeal in order to learn a thing is precisely the reason I  
don't want
to use a forum as a learning tool or depend upon the reactions of  
the local
gurus.  I want to learn alone.  The resources which would allow me  
to do
this from the ground up, using Transcript and Revolution, as a  
single tool,

do not exist.

Thank you,

Greg Smith
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Dependence-on- 
Programming-Experts-tf1893108.html#a5202649

Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com.

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Thomas J. McGrath III
SCS
1000 Killarney Dr.
Pittsburgh, PA 15234
412-885-8541



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Of Lists and Dependence

[Scott Rossi]

Execute the following in your Revolution message box:

  go url "http://www.i-view.net/tactile/noiz.rev";

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
-
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.tactilemedia.com


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Re: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Mark Wieder]

Bob-

Thursday, July 6, 2006, 11:07:18 AM, you wrote:

> The Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval" doesn't exist. I'd like to suggest
> it, but perhaps under the more practical heading of "Currently approved
> Linux distros" for use with the Runtime Revolution programming system.

The "Officially" supported linux distros are Mandriva, RedHat, SuSE,
and Linspire. All of these are mentioned during the installation
process. And on the runrev web site.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Garrett Hylltun]

Mark Wieder wrote:

Bob-

Thursday, July 6, 2006, 11:07:18 AM, you wrote:


great list of live CDs at
http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php 
which can be downloaded and burned.


!!! Thanks for the link. I've got a few of those archived, but I had
no idea this list existed...


Which outnumbers the other, linux software or linux distros?  ;-)

There are of course only a few that do stand above the rest, but the 
massive amounts of home brew distros really do dilute the market and 
confuse potential users.


The other factor which works against linux is the amount of Window 
Managers available.  Gnome and KDE being the most common.  But KDE uses 
QT which has license issues which really leaves Gnome as the WM with the 
most potential at being the standard WM for linux.


-Garrett
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Re: fstab

[Bob Warren]

Mark Wieder wrote:
>> How about looking at the /etc/fstab file and checking for the presence
>> of a /dev/fd0 entry?

Bob Warren wrote:
>> That works fine on Ubuntu, but for other distros the fstab is either in
>> a different place or it doesn't even seem to exist!

Mark Wieder wrote:
>
I'm sure you've done more testing of this than I have, so excuse my
incredulity here, but fstab is one of the cornerstones of *nix. Can
you point me to some where it doesn't exist? Solaris is the only
exception I know of, where the file is called vfstab.


You are quite right to insist. I sometimes suffer from blindness and old 
age. If you are right and I am wrong, that would indeed be a good thing! 
I'll look into it again and let you know what I find/don't find.


Regards,
Bob

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Dependence on programming experts

[Stgoldberg]

Regarding Revolution and   object-oriented programming, it seems to me that 
Revolution, which I have been actively using for the past two years, does do 
that since one can save useful scripts (sometimes long, complex ones) from one 
application and apply in another without having to start from scratch.   
Indeed, I have been saving a number of scripts that participants in this panel 
have 
suggested over the past two years and found them helpful in a number of 
different projects.   It is sort of like having a collection of clip art   
objects 
that one can combine to create different works of art.
Steve Goldberg
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RE: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Bob Warren]

Bob Warren wrote:

>I wonder whether their embedded browser (like altBrowser) now
>> works without tweaking in my Ubuntu Linux?
>>
>> I DO hope that Rev are not going to miss the boat AGAIN!!

Lynn Fredricks wrote:
>
Hi Bob,

Im not sure what you are asking here. Do you want Runtime to only test 
with one version of Linux? That is the only thing guaranteed by REAL's 
support SUSE in the press release.


---
Hi Lynn,

I'm not sure what you are asking either. If you are referring to what I 
said at the beginning of the thread, I would certainly not want Rev to 
test on only one version of Linux. However, what I did suggest was 
special attention to a restricted set of Linuxes (for various technical 
reasons), at least at the moment.


What I was referring to in the sentences you quoted was the complete 
unavailability of altBrowser for Linux. Half a yonk ago (that word 
again), I asked Rev to fix this, since I needed it desperately. I was 
told that special changes to Rev were required so that Altuit could 
produce it, but that such changes would be made in the not-too-distant 
future. However, it turns out that the situation of altBrowser for Linux 
is not too different to the "Coming soon" of #2.7: it all depends on 
what you mean by "soon"! As an ordinary Studio user, I have no ET for 
the appearance of 2.7, and I certainly have no idea whether when it does 
eventually appear it will include the changes required for altBrowser, 
whether the necessary specialFolderPath functions will be implemented, 
etc. In other words, Rev has kept me (us) completely in the dark. I am 
not happy as a result.


As for the sentence about Rev missing the boat, what I meant was that 
just as Rev failed to scoop up great numbers of VB6 orphans (of which I 
am one), it seems that they are also failing to satisfy their users 
requiring an embedded browser (in stark contrast to Realbasic). Note too 
that this question has a direct relationship with recent discussions on 
the UR-List regarding the use of the Internet, multimedia delivery, 
embedding Rev stacks in browsers, etc. The only difference is that the 
provision of an altBrowser-type embedded browser is much more fundamental.


Regarding Realbasic's support of SUSE, I am not yet in a position to 
give an opinion on whether it is a good or a bad thing. What I do know 
regarding their embedded browser (called "HTMLview") is that not only is 
it guaranteed to work on SUSE, it also works great on my (unsupported) 
Ubuntu. That's 100% better than I can do with Rev at the moment.


If on the other hand you could give us SOME kind of good news regarding 
this browser issue in Linux, I would be very grateful. Being kept in the 
dark like this causes a lot of suffering.


Regards,
Bob



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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Björnke von Gierke]

On Jul 06 2006, at 23:42, GregSmith wrote:


Be "pissed" if that truly makes you feel better.  I meant no personal
offense.  Remember, nobody forces anybody to read a post that wastes 
their

time.


Actually most mails on this mailinglist have to be read, otherwise you 
can't now whether there's valuable information in them, one of the 
reasons why i don't participate in most of the (to me) useless 
discussions here.
On the other hand some threads can be skipped, or certain persons mails 
too.


As for the programming for visual kinda people, I never met a person 
that was incapable of learning programming, if said person accepts that 
a lone wolf is not part of the society today.


You specified some programs, which can be done in runrev, if one 
respects the limits that it has. Some ideas of you are only possible in 
a lower level language, today most prefer C and its offsprings for 
that, but I'm pretty sure you don't want to use one of those.


So my hint would be: start doing it! at first you'll be frustrated, but 
after a week or so of stumbling around you'll get something done that 
makes you proud, and then you will have learned the basics to make your 
(programmable) dreams come true.


--

official ChatRev page:
http://chatrev.bjoernke.com

Chat with other RunRev developers:
go stack URL "http://homepage.mac.com/bvg/chatrev1.3.rev";


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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[GregSmith]

Garrett:

Sorry to make you so angry, and yes, I think you did just go off the deep
end.  And, I'm sure my communication skills are partly to blame.

I have spent more than a little time trying to learn to program in the past. 
In the 90's I was hired by a local university to write a program with
HyperCard that taught children base 10.  It was funny and simple, because
that was all I could manage, and I did get paid for my labor.

All of these years since, I have struggled with my own learning
"disabilities", which, I think are rather common, especially for visually
oriented artist types.  The current programming model just doesn't seem to
fit any better for us than does a square peg in a round hole.  We always are
looking for ways to make things visually.  Natural programming types are
always looking to do things "verbally".

All I have really been trying to ascertain here is whether Revolution will
help me to design software systems like I can envision them.  Yes, I have
done a lot of complaining about programming methods, terminology, lack of
foundational material for the programmatically impaired, etc.  Somehow that
gets interpreted to mean, (for people like yourself), I want everyone and
everything to do it for me, or that I don't want to learn; which is exactly
the opposite of what I am trying to express.  

I simply want a tool that I can educate myself with, needing nobody's
constant assistance.  Creative and learning independence.  I get frustrated
when, everywhere I look, with a detailed eye, at various programming
environments, there do not exist learning resources that start from the very
beginning and approach the subject visually, instead of verbally; with lots
of acronyms and buzzwords thrown in to make it even more difficult for the
new learner to understand.

Be "pissed" if that truly makes you feel better.  I meant no personal
offense.  Remember, nobody forces anybody to read a post that wastes their
time.

Greg Smith


-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Dependence-on-Programming-Experts-tf1893108.html#a5208057
Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com.

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Re: Re: Dreamhost?

[Jared Smith]

Is there a reason Dreamhost is popular? I've been looking for an easy
way to buy some hosting and use a Valentina database, but I don't see
too many hosting providers having that built-in other than MacServe...

On 7/6/06, Dan Shafer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Stephen Barncard turned me on to Dreamhost over a year ago and I am a
delighted client.

I seem to recall getting Rev CGI working there at one point but as I recall
I had some problem doing so. Stephen may be able to be more specific.

But for hosting, these guys are great.

On 7/6/06, Mark Wieder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> All-
>
> I'm interested in getting away from JaguarPC's crappy hosting and
> considering Dreamhost because I know there's some experience here on
> the list with it, I like the fact that it's got RoR already installed,
> and I like the features matrix. Any comments pro or con Dreamhost,
> especially as a rev cgi host?
>
> --
> -Mark Wieder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
>From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html
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Re: how the internet works : the official explanation

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Sorry Andre ,
Having initially noticed your caveat about super intelligence, I decided not to 
write about the pigeons but the next day I'd forgotten that and I wrote it.

Anyway I think people who do not understand pigeon behaviour and might take 
your ideas too seriously should be glad of your explanation.

Your answer just shows that you are much funnier than I realized!
Hope we don't get a tutorial from Dan explaining how to programme pigeons!

Barry Barber

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Re: udp: determine local port?

[Alex Tweedly]

John Craig wrote:


Is it possible for rev to determine the local port used to send udp data?

I don't know of a way to do this directly - certainly nothing I can see 
in the docs, and haven't seen it done.


There is a pretty nasty (but generally effective) way to do it . see 
below. But before you get to that, I have to ask *why* you want to know 
this. I can think of  lots of possible reasons - but most of them aren't 
good reasons. Generally, you don't need to know which local port has 
been used - the handler specified in the "open" statement receives a 
message when any reply arrives, without needing to know the port number.


There are good reasons to want it, but all the ones I can think of are 
pretty esoteric (e.g. to punch a hole through a firewall). So I am 
curious why you want this, in case we can suggest a better way.



Icky work-around.

All major OSes (afaik) allocate local ports serially, so you can pretty 
much determine what was allocated by

- accept udp packets on some loopback interface (e.g. 127.0.0.1:9876)
- open a "connection" to this interface, send a packet to the 
connection, close the connection

- give message processing a chance to happen
- open the socket you *really* wanted
- open a "connection" to this interface, send a packet to the 
connection, close the connection

- give message processing a chance to happen again
Each time the loopback receives a packet, it can look at the incoming 
socket info (which contains the return port number)
These *should* differ by two (assuming the OS allocated serially, and 
nothing else got in the way).

   If they differ by something other than 2 - try again  !?!

Here's some code I tried out just to check if that does actually work, 
and it does seem to ...




--> all handlers

on mouseUp
-- use a 192.168.1.1 address (i.e. NOT same machine) to avoid 
error of no-one accepting on this port
put "opened" && getUDPLOcalSocket("191.168.1.1:4567", myCallBack) 
& cr after msg

-- put "before write " && the opensockets & cr after msg
-- write "one" && cr to socket "127.0.0.1:4567"
-- put "after write " && the opensockets & cr after msg
end mouseUp

on myCallBack
-- will only be called if there is, e.g., an echo server on the 
"real" socket

-- and if the above three lines are uncommented ...
put "real call back handler -" & cr & paramCount() & cr 
after msg

repeat with i = 1 to paramCount()
put i && ":" && param(i) & cr after msg
end repeat
put "end real call back handler -" & cr  after msg
end myCallback

local lIncomingSocketList
local lLoopBackSocket = "127.0.0.1:9876"
function getUDPLocalSocket pSocket, pCallBack
-- first zero the accumulator
put empty into lIncomingSocketList
-- and close the socket (if it's alreadyh open, would re-use same 
local port number

close socket pSocket
-- set up the loopback, write to and close
accept datagram connections on port "9876" with message loopBack
open  datagram socket lLoopBackSocket with message loopBack
write " " to socket lLoopBackSocket
close socket lLoopBackSocket
-- MUST give that a chance to happen !
wait 5 millisecs with messages

open datagram socket pSocket with message pCallBack

-- repeat the loopback open/write/close/allow messages

open  datagram socket lLoopBackSocket with message loopBack
write " " to socket lLoopBackSocket
close socket lLoopBackSocket
wait 5 millisecs with messages
-- and now can return the list - should have two port numbers 2 apart
return lIncomingSocketList
end getUDPLocalSocket

on loopBack pSock
put pSock & comma after lIncomingSocketList
put "lopback" && pSock &cr  after msg
end loopBack

on socketError p
put "error" && p after msg
end socketError





--
Alex Tweedly   http://www.tweedly.net



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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[GregSmith]

Rodney:

Thank you for taking the time to clarify these things for me.  I'm beginning
to understand Revolution . . . but, now that Dan has got me looking at
Squeak . . .  and I've spent the last 8 hours doing so, I'm absolutely
fascinated from the point of view of starting from absolute scratch, which I
would like to do.  A clean slate, a blank canvas a fresh mind.  

I've looked at and played with EToys, watched Alan Kay demonstrate and
explain the concepts behind Squeak and learning, in general; and now can see
why Dan sent me over there.  My set of dream applications really do fit into
the immediate capabilities of this environment.  And, (here is the
clincher), it has a learning system for kids, (that's me), that assumes next
to nothing regarding its users.  I'm not ashamed to learn as though I were a
child, as fresh as a dew-picked strawberry, undefiled by the ravages of time
and age.

To tell you the truth, I think Alan Kay is right when he says that the real
computer revolution hasn't even begun.  I also think he is right, from the
standpoint of efficiency, and the direct creation of all new assets, (which
I would intend to do), that the current operating system paradigm needs to
be abandoned in favor of an all new, truly object oriented one.  It just
makes sense to me.

I hope Dan has some more to add to his recommendation to help clarify these
issues even more.

Thanks again,

Greg Smith


-- 
View this message in context: 
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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Dan Shafer]

Greg..

Honest, well-informed people will differ on this point.

My reason for suggesting Squeak (and EToys) as a starting point was that
there is already a lot of sample code, working classes, demos, and even some
apps that at least head in the direction you seem to be wanting to head.

Everything Rodney says about the *language* is probably true; it's
definitely more complex than Transcript and getting your head wrapped around
object orientation can be a real adventure. But there are already a
well-designed (if somewhat clunky-looking) visual programming environment, a
robust and well-designed 3D world, an entire emerging OS (Croquet) built
around those tools, and a LOT of books and other materials available with
which to learn and master the skills. Also, I (perhaps peculiarly) find
Smalltalk as easy to read as Transcript if not easier. The syntax is quite
verbose but that is a big advantage to me.

When Rodney says, "it is REALLY unintuitive to anyone who
hasn't drunk the Smalltalk Cool Aid. Just figuring out what mouse
clicks do takes some work. Smalltalk is essentially an operating
system," I can agree with a good percentage of what he says. But, just for
example, there are close to 500 full-blown frameworks and apps available
free through SqueakMap. There are starting points and components for a
staggering array of things including servers and all kinds of other cool
stuff.

All of that reflects the maturity of a programming language and environment
that is now 30+ years old and still going strong.

BTW, Rodney is right when he says that creating *standard* user interfaces
that adopt native look and feel is still an issue in Smalltalk. That's
changing soon with the deployment of wxSqueak using wxWidgets, but for now
it's an issue. However, I had the impression from your description of what
you want to do that you're more interested in direct-manipulation interfaces
than non-standard ones and for that stuff, Squeak soars.

On 7/6/06, GregSmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Dan & Rodney:

O.K., now, just as I was salivating over the potential usefulness and joy
of
using Squeak, Rodney comes along and throws water all over me.  Which is
it?
Who is right?  I haven't yet had time to look at the actual Squeak
language,
but I did see that incredibly direct and simple "kids" example of using
Squeak over at SqueakLand, or is it SmallTalkLand?  EToys.  And then there
is the integration of all the functionality that the Alice environment
offered, brought over into SqueakLand, or whatever it is called.  Is it
all
too good to be really true?

My initial impressions of this environment were that it teaches new users,
even kids, to apprehend, to comprehend the concepts involved in
programming,
so that, after those things are grasped, then the cryptic programming
terminology can be introduced which, if those are introduced first,
confuses
the heck out of anyone wanting to learn to program.  Even if a programming
language is English-like, what is needed beyond and prior to learning
lines
of "code" is really understanding sequences of events and why they need to
be in the order that they need to be in to get the machine to respond
properly.  Right?

Greg Smith
--
View this message in context:
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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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Re: Dreamhost?

[Dan Shafer]

Stephen Barncard turned me on to Dreamhost over a year ago and I am a
delighted client.

I seem to recall getting Rev CGI working there at one point but as I recall
I had some problem doing so. Stephen may be able to be more specific.

But for hosting, these guys are great.

On 7/6/06, Mark Wieder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


All-

I'm interested in getting away from JaguarPC's crappy hosting and
considering Dreamhost because I know there's some experience here on
the list with it, I like the fact that it's got RoR already installed,
and I like the features matrix. Any comments pro or con Dreamhost,
especially as a rev cgi host?

--
-Mark Wieder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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RE: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Lynn Fredricks]

> I wonder whether their embedded browser (like altBrowser) now 
> works without tweaking in my Ubuntu Linux?
> 
> I DO hope that Rev are not going to miss the boat AGAIN!!

Hi Bob,

Im not sure what you are asking here. Do you want Runtime to only test with
one version of Linux? That is the only thing guaranteed by REAL's support
SUSE in the press release.

Best regards,


Lynn Fredricks
Worldwide Business Operations
Runtime Revolution, Ltd


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Re: Possible New Book Titles

[Dan Shafer]

Thanks for all the input. After considering everyone's viewpoints, looking
at my own interests, talking with some of the veteran RevHeads and checking
in with the Mother Ship, I've decided my next eBooklet will be on standalone
creation.

I'll post an outline of the specific topics as soon as I can get a handle on
how big the beast is.

--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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Re: Possible New Book Titles

[Dan Shafer]

I'm guessing that my book on standalone creation will also have to cover the
issues of cross-platform deployment you mention. I won't, however, try to
cover things like raster vs. vector graphics, communicating with externals
(though including them in the build process is obviously important), and OS
functions. That may be a separate volume.

But I need to examine carefully how much I can cover in a $5 ebooklet. It
may take more than one to do this topic justice.



On 7/6/06, Viktoras Didziulis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hi Dan,

I would suggest adding a couple of sections on handling raster and vector
graphics in Revolution which would be helpful too.
Also all the basics and details on communicating with externals, libraries
and OS functions and devices would be good to have in same book :-)

Best regards
Viktoras

On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 23:33:06 -0700, "Dan Shafer"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> OK, I'm trying to figure out the best next subject on which to
> produce a
> SmartEBook eBooklet. The following topics remain on my list and are
> candidates based on the relatively small likelihood that
> fundamental changes
> in Rev will obsolete them in the next year. I'd be interested in
> votes,
> feedback, other suggestions, etc.
>
> * Script-based commands
>
> Edit script, editscript, wait, do, scriptlimits, text/font related
> properties, insert script, remove script, start using
>
> * The Message Box
>
> Examination of all panes, properties, uses of the Message Box
>
> * Debugging strategies and techniques
>
> * Parameters, Variables and Values in Transcript
>
> * Building and Deploying Standalones
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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Garrett Hylltun]

GregSmith wrote:

I'll just repeat what I initially stated:

I think multimedia authoring software should be intuitive enough, and well
documented enough to allow a fairly non-technical user to do amazing things
without constantly needing to ask assistance from local forum gurus.

The foundational educational material for learning Revolution from the
standpoint of a total non-programmer seems to be missing.  That's the gist
of my own personal dilemma.

I do appreciate most of your replies, but having to go through this kind of
verbal ordeal in order to learn a thing is precisely the reason I don't want
to use a forum as a learning tool or depend upon the reactions of the local
gurus.  I want to learn alone.  The resources which would allow me to do
this from the ground up, using Transcript and Revolution, as a single tool,
do not exist.


You had the answers to your questions within a few of the users replies, 
but you persisted and of course, got more replies.  No person here 
verbally abused you at all.


Simple media presentation tools are what you want them to be, and Rev is 
not a simple media presentation tool, it's the bridge between that and 
full programming tool.


A simple media presentation tool as you want will not accomplish what 
you want.  If you want to do what you want to do, then you're going to 
have to get over your misconceptions and get dirty with learning a 
programming language.


These things will never be so simple that anyone can use them, it's just 
impossible.  Even though the car you spoke of only had 300 parts, that 
doesn't mean that the average Joe is capable of replicating it or 
working on it, unless they got dirty and learned how to do it.  And I 
can bet you there was no tutorials or forums to help out.


Nothing will ever be intuitive enough for every single person to do 
amazing things.  The only way amazing things will happen is if you take 
the time to learn something and then use your knowledge to create that 
something amazing.


If you are not able to begin learning to use Rev with what is already 
available for tutorials and such, then programming and or creating media 
presentation type projects is just not going to be your cup of tea at 
all.  There is no magical spell that will allow anyone to learn without 
digging in and getting dirty.


When you were a child, was riding a bicycle so intuitive that you did 
not need to learn how to ride it?  When you began to use a computer, was 
it so intuitive that you did not have to ask for help?  When you began 
to learn to read and write, was it so intuitive that you didn't have to 
go to school to learn how read and write?


There's a price to pay for everything in life and if you're not willing 
to pay that price then you're just not going to get what you want at 
all.  There's no amount of conjecture or debates that will change that.


If you do find what you are looking for, I can assure you that you will 
never create anything amazing with it.


Maybe you should look around the VPL development tools, or maybe try 
Flash or shockwave or something like that.  Maybe those will be more 
intuitive.


I think I can understand why the other forums were abrupt with you or 
just ignored you.  You weren't willing to really learn at all, instead, 
you probably complained about how impossible it is to learn and it 
should be more intuitive so that a three-leg cross-eyed weener dog with 
brain damage could just start using it with no learning curve at all.


Honestly, you've really kind of pissed me off on this completely.  There 
should be no reason at all that you can't learn to use Rev!  I have a 
hard time just living life itself because of my disabilities, but yet, I 
was able to learn to use Rev!  And I bet you that I could put any one of 
my three teens at the computer with Rev and they'd learn and understand 
it within a few months, and not one of them knows jack about programming!


My suggestions is go find something else to do and stay away from 
programming completely, don't even think about scripting, coding, batch, 
automation, nothing related to any of it.  Take up coloring books!  Oh 
Wait!, that might not be intuitive enough and you'd want the pictures to 
color themselves!


Ok, I'm obviously off the deep end now, so take care and good luck on 
whatever you decided to do.


-Garrett

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Re: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[chris bohnert]

What can we as developers, users, and advocates do to hasten the demise
of most Linux distros?



Seriously...should we pick off just the ones you disagree with or should we
take a stick to distro vendors at random?

You'll get my gentoo box when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

--
cb
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Re: hilitedLine

[Jared Smith]

Did you mean Preston? I wasn't the one who asked the question.

On 7/6/06, Mark Schonewille <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Hi Jared,

Chris' solution won't work on Mac OS X. I don't know about other
platforms. The following works for me:

on preopenCard
   set the hilitedlines of fld 1 to 0
   set the traversalon of fld 1 to false
end preopenCard

on openCard
   set the traversalon of fld 1 to true
end openCard


Best,

Mark


--

Economy-x-Talk
Consultancy and Software Engineering
http://economy-x-talk.com
http://www.salery.biz

Download ErrorLib at http://economy-x-talk.com/developers.html and
get full control of error handling in Revolution.



Op 6-jul-2006, om 18:27 heeft Jared Smith het volgende geschreven:

> I think it would suffice to set the focus somewhere else when the card
> opens...do you need it to be focused?


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fstab

[Mark Wieder]

Bob-

Wednesday, July 5, 2006, 7:17:47 PM, you wrote:

> How about looking at the /etc/fstab file and checking for the presence
> of a /dev/fd0 entry?

> 
> That works fine on Ubuntu, but for other distros the fstab is either in
> a different place or it doesn't even seem to exist!

I'm sure you've done more testing of this than I have, so excuse my
incredulity here, but fstab is one of the cornerstones of *nix. Can
you point me to some where it doesn't exist? Solaris is the only
exception I know of, where the file is called vfstab.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Mark Wieder]

Bob-

Thursday, July 6, 2006, 11:07:18 AM, you wrote:

> great list of live CDs at
> http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php 
> which can be downloaded and burned.

!!! Thanks for the link. I've got a few of those archived, but I had
no idea this list existed...

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Dreamhost?

[Mark Wieder]

All-

I'm interested in getting away from JaguarPC's crappy hosting and
considering Dreamhost because I know there's some experience here on
the list with it, I like the fact that it's got RoR already installed,
and I like the features matrix. Any comments pro or con Dreamhost,
especially as a rev cgi host?

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Modifying Keyboard Shortcuts in Script Editor

[Ray Horsley]

Anybody have a quick-and-easy way to modify keyboard shortcuts in the 
menubar which comes up when Rev's Script Editor is opened in the 
debugging mode?


Thanks,


Ray Horsley
Developer, LinkIt! Software

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Re: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Bob Warren]

Bob Warren wrote:
>
I wonder whether their [Realbasic's] embedded browser (like altBrowser) 
now works without tweaking in my Ubuntu Linux?


---
Works perfectly without tweaking!

I don't think I am being too provocative by suggesting that this 
represents a very loud wakeup call to Rev, do you?


Bob

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Re: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Richard Gaskin]

Bob Warren wrote:

There are hundreds of Linux distros out there, all at different stages 
of development, and with slightly different characteristics - 
particularly in the details of the file system. In my view, such a 
situation is perfectly natural and normal, and it is just a question of 
time before commonly-agreed standards and greater uniformity arise.

...
 From a programming point of view, the current situation is very 
intimidating, not only for Runtime Revolution, but also for anyone 
hoping to program in Rev for Linux generally rather than for a 
particular distro.


Not just for Rev folks, but really anyone interested in trying out Linux 
but discovers that they first need several days' worth of education to 
sort out *which* Linux they should go for.


This plethora of distros is the single most destructive force the Linux 
community faces today.  Not even Microsoft's misinformation campaign 
does as much damage to Linux adoption as the Linux community itself.


In spite of the good intentions of these distro vendors, they really 
need to cut it out and pool their resources behind one or two of the 
leading ones, letting the rest either fade away or become more clearly 
identifiable as highly specialized variants not targeted at general 
consumers.


I like the optimism you express at the end of that first paragaph above, 
but having been made somewhat more cynical by watching each new distro 
vendor pop up month after month with some misguided idea that theirs is 
somehow necessary and more precious than any other, I have to wonder: 
What can we as developers, users, and advocates do to hasten the demise 
of most Linux distros?


Should we petition these vendors to stop polluting Linux mindspace with 
unnecessary variation?


Is the Linux community mature enough yet to recognize the damage being 
done by this fragmentation, or are they still stuck in yesteryear's "If 
you don't understand Linux you don't deserve to use Linux"?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Bob Warren]

Just after starting this thread, I received the following news. I am 
mentioning it because it seems to correspond exactly to my idea of 
selecting a single distro (or small range of distros) for Rev's "seal of 
approval" in order to be more practical:




 AUSTIN, Texas, USA (July 6, 2006) — REAL Software, Inc., provider of 
REALbasic, cross-platform that really works, announced today that 
REALbasic 2006 Release 3 for Linux is available now. In addition to the 
over 100 features and fixes that have been added, REALbasic 2006 Release 
3 for Linux has been specifically tested and optimized for use with SUSE 
Linux Enterprise Desktop from Novell.


"SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop is the best Linux desktop on the market," 
stated Geoff Perlman, president and CEO of REAL Software. "Rather than 
waiting for Vista we think many IT managers and CIOs will now make the 
move to Linux because it's more secure, less expensive, and much more 
open than Windows. And for those businesses who are still locked into 
Windows by their legacy Visual Basic applications, REAL Software will 
help move those applications to SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop. We look 
forward to helping Novell convert a lot of Windows shops to Linux."



I wonder whether their embedded browser (like altBrowser) now works 
without tweaking in my Ubuntu Linux?


I DO hope that Rev are not going to miss the boat AGAIN!!


Bob

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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Peter T. Evensen]

I just had to jump in.  Greg, have you looked at the User's Guide?  It is 
pretty good.   I haven't seen anyone mention that.


At 01:30 PM 7/6/2006, you wrote:

Greg Smith wrote:

You really haven't thoroughly read what I have written.  I have stated that
I am not opposed to learning to program, but, rather, opposed to having to
learn the skills with inadequate foundational learning material.


I did overlook this in your original posts. I agree that Revolution is 
lacking in the documentation department. It has a lot of documentation for 
people who are familiar with the environment, but not for those just 
getting started. Rev really needs a good tutorial that goes beyond just 
the basics that it covers now.


Peter T. Evensen
http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com
314-629-5248 or 888-682-4588 



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Re: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Martin Baxter]

Richard Gaskin wrote:
Given all of these factors, I would whole-heartedly support a move by 
RunRev to target SUSE as the Linux for the most polished deployment 
(appearances, specialFolderPath, and other things we could use).


If RunRev jumps on this idea I would definitely do a "SUSE-First" 
initiative for my own Linux releases.


Who knows?  If enough of us pool our resources maybe we can push SUSE 
enough to kill off most of the others, ultimately benefiting everyone




I don't mind if they do.

Didn't Revolution once have a Mandrake (now Mandriva) logo on its 
website? Presumably that was some kind of seal of approval. I wonder 
where that went?


Martin Baxter
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Re: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Richard Gaskin]

Bob Warren wrote:


Just after starting this thread, I received the following news. I am 
mentioning it because it seems to correspond exactly to my idea of 
selecting a single distro (or small range of distros) for Rev's "seal of 
approval" in order to be more practical:




  AUSTIN, Texas, USA (July 6, 2006) — REAL Software, Inc., provider of 
REALbasic, cross-platform that really works, announced today that 
REALbasic 2006 Release 3 for Linux is available now. In addition to the 
over 100 features and fixes that have been added, REALbasic 2006 Release 
3 for Linux has been specifically tested and optimized for use with SUSE 
Linux Enterprise Desktop from Novell.


While I don't normally have much respect for RB marketing resources, 
SUSE makes a lot of sense.


This set of videos shows a seriousness about usability not often found 
in other distros:



Sure, half of that is just OS X knockoffs, but if you're going to steal 
ideas they might as well steal good ones. :)


Favoring Novell also returns a favor to the Rev community:  Novell has 
published a series of articles about using Rev on SUSE:






Given all of these factors, I would whole-heartedly support a move by 
RunRev to target SUSE as the Linux for the most polished deployment 
(appearances, specialFolderPath, and other things we could use).


If RunRev jumps on this idea I would definitely do a "SUSE-First" 
initiative for my own Linux releases.


Who knows?  If enough of us pool our resources maybe we can push SUSE 
enough to kill off most of the others, ultimately benefiting everyone


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Viktoras Didziulis]

Hi Bob, 
 
I personally have Ubuntu linux (Debian family) installed on my laptop PC and
PC as the second OS. Really happy with this. Earlier have tried Fedora Core,
but this one used to have some annoyances with laptops and multimedia. Then
switched to Scientific Linux, multimedia was OK, still the main annoyance
was corrupted RPM and updating system due to the bug in Red Hat family
Linuxes. They likely got fixed this now, but as I have already switched to
Ubuntu - not going back to Red Hat ;-). 
 
Regarding the criterions I would suggest taking compliance with LSB 3.1
standard as the main criteria because that's what all the standard is for...
All serious Linuxes should implement this standard. 
 
Linuxes that are closiest to the imlementation of the LSB 3.1 are: Xandros,
Red Hat, Novel, Ubuntu. Also Debian Common Core (DCC) Alliance - this means
all Linuxes based on the stable Debian 3.1 (Sarge) are aiming at LSB 3.1.
The DCC includes Knoppix, LinEx, Linspire, etc... 
 
Viktoras 
 
---Original Message--- 
 
From: Bob Warren 
Date: 07/06/06 21:07:36 
To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com 
Subject: Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval" 
 
The Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval" doesn't exist. I'd like to suggest 
it, but perhaps under the more practical heading of "Currently approved 
Linux distros" for use with the Runtime Revolution programming system. 
 
There are hundreds of Linux distros out there, all at different stages 
of development, and with slightly different characteristics - 
particularly in the details of the file system. In my view, such a 
situation is perfectly natural and normal, and it is just a question of 
time before commonly-agreed standards and greater uniformity arise. We 
all remember what cars looked like a few years ago. You could, for 
example, tell an American car a mile off, and nobody could ever mistake 
it for an English Minicar, a German Beetle, or one of those French cars 
that looked like a baby's inverted pram. Nowadays, because of a natural 
process of optimization and other factors, it is very difficult at first 
glance to identify whether a car is American, Japanese, European, or 
whatever. 
 
>From a programming point of view, the current situation is very 
intimidating, not only for Runtime Revolution, but also for anyone 
hoping to program in Rev for Linux generally rather than for a 
particular distro. However, the first great hurdle has been overcome by 
Rev: the IDE runs successfully on just about any distro you can find, 
whether installed on the HD, or running on a ramdisk using a Live CD. 
Heck, it runs beautifully even on Puppy Linux! However, what we need to 
evaluate as Rev programmers is whether any particular distro is worth 
supporting at all in its current state, and whether the peculiar 
characteristics of its file system are worth catering for in terms of 
time and energy devoted to our programming efforts. 
 
A great way of evaluating a considerable number of the distros out there 
is to adopt the hobby of collecting live CDs. You just pop them in your 
drive, boot up your machine, and Bob's your uncle. Of course, if you 
have some kind of Linux already installed on your HD then this is a 
help, since a lot of Linuxes running in RAM make use of the HD's swap 
partition if one is available, but this is normally not essential, and I 
have never tried a live CD and had any kind of subsequent trouble with 
my Windows as a result of accidental interference with the HD. For 
anyone interested in trying out Linux together with Rev, there is a 
great list of live CDs at http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php 
which can be downloaded and burned. 
 
So what criteria should be used for selecting "Rev approved" Linux 
distros? I suggest the following stringent list: 
 
1. The distro runs or installs automatically (i.e. can be done by a 
layman) and configures all normal hardware, even on old machines, 
including Windows network printers, floppy diskette drives, etc. 
 
2. The distro plays all normal files (AVI, MP3, BMP, PDF, DOC, - i.e. 
common Linux AND Windows files) automatically "out of the box". By this, 
when the file is clicked or double clicked, it is already associated 
with an appropriate utility to play or show it, and the program doesn't 
break or lack codecs, etc. 
 
3. The Rev IDE (and consequently Rev standalones!) runs OK and looks good. 
 
Applying the above at this very moment, out of the 300 or so distros 
available, no more than a few are left. (I don't know the number 
exactly, because I haven't tried out anything like all the distros. 
Perhaps you can help with this evaluation.) And there are some 
surprises. I have always been a great fan of Ubuntu, and apart from its 
wonderful social philosophy, I think it shows the greatest potential of 
all the Linuxes, but at the moment it fails dismally over criterion #2. 
Red Hat Linux, one of the original most famous distros, supported 
indirectly by Rev in that they give special attention 

Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Rodney Somerstein]

Thank you for your many replies to my questions.  I'll try to take your word
regarding your programming language recommendation, but I really don't yet
understand why you or Rodney feel this way.  Object orientation has always
made complete sense to me  -  the encapsulation of very small functions and
their assembly into larger components.  Traditional programming describes a
sequence of events, detail by detail instead of an assemblage of simple
parts.  This seems counter-intuitive to me.  As I understand it, Transcript
is not object oriented.  It may have syntax that resembles English, but the
construction of systems is what I am aiming at and it seems natural to
define a system in terms of itty bitty parts that combine together to make
bigger and more complex things.  Think of the Model T car.  Pretty useful,
but really not all that complex considering it is made up of merely 300
fairly simple parts.  Looked at a part at a time, creating a Model T seems
quite within practical limits.



Greg,

I agree that it would be nice if Revolution was truly object 
oriented. Right now, it is "kind of" object oriented. It uses many 
concepts from OOP (object oriented programming), but doesn't go all 
the way to including ideas such as inheritance.


So, you can take all of those itty bitty parts and combine them 
together the way that you think. What you can't do is easily define a 
new kind of part and have it inherit all of the capabilities of some 
other part. So, if you need a new widget that does things slightly 
differently than some other widget, you can use some of your previous 
work, but you essentially end up having to rewrite your new widget 
from the beginning. In a true OOP you could simply start with the 
original widget and make the few changes that you needed.


Due to its English-like syntax, Revolution, the language (previously 
called Transcript) is easier for many people to work with than the 
other more foreign seeming languages. Given the fact that you can 
graphically define the pieces that you are putting together and then 
fill in the details (scripts), it is an easy way to get started. Were 
you to go to another language, such as say, Python, you might get a 
fully object oriented language, but you would then have to start at 
an even lower foundational level. In most languages, you have to 
learn to do everything with just text first. Then you start learning 
to use graphics. Here, you can use either text or graphics pretty 
interchangeably. That is a big part of what makes Rev easy to use. 
Combine that with the fact that you can simply add new parts as you 
go along and test immediately and you have a really dynamic 
environment to work in.


-Rodney
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Re: Can't enter anything with the keyboard

[Bill]

It only happens right after I print. So I will try to find what the print
dialogue is opening to cause this (a hidden modal print dialogue). It also
only started after I started using a new HP printer.


On 7/6/06 12:59 AM, "Scott Morrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Bill,
> A variation on Jacqueline's post, is a situation that puzzled me in
> version 2.5 - though I think was "fixed" in version 2.6.  Under OSX,
> if a dialog was called as a sheet AND an open window was hidden off-
> screen then the sheet could appear on the off screen window...
> sometimes causing an effect similar to the one you are describing.
> 
> -Scott Morrow
> 
> Elementary Software
> (Now with 20% less chalk dust !)
> web http://elementarysoftware.com/
> email   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> -
> 
> On Jul 5, 2006, at 4:47 PM, Bill wrote:
> 
>> I have a new bug or error which makes it so I can't type in any field
>> including the property inspector or the message box after I print a
>> card to
>> my HP laserjet 1320.
>> 
>> In order to get out of the locked effect I either have to close and
>> restart
>> runrev or sometimes close just one of the stacks I'm working on.
>> 
>> Has anyone seen this? When you try to enter text anywhere even
>> control m to
>> bring up the message box (you can use the mouse and the menus) it
>> will beep.
>> 
>> There is no error window or palettes open.
>> 
>> 
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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Rodney Somerstein]

Greg Smith wrote:

You really haven't thoroughly read what I have written.  I have stated that
I am not opposed to learning to program, but, rather, opposed to having to
learn the skills with inadequate foundational learning material.


I did overlook this in your original posts. I agree that Revolution 
is lacking in the documentation department. It has a lot of 
documentation for people who are familiar with the environment, but 
not for those just getting started. Rev really needs a good tutorial 
that goes beyond just the basics that it covers now.



I'm not asking for a tool that does everything for me.  I'm asking for a
computer language that lets me translate my organized thoughts and
imagination into useful bits that, when assembled together, form working
components of a total working system.  And, it would be helpful if, along
with such a language, came an insightful translation of the equivalent of
words, phrases, sentences, paragraphs and finally, whole stories  -
especially if the language claims to be English-like.  If English is the
analogy, then the analogy needs to be explained, piece by piece, concept by
concept.  Maybe this is what does not exist.


Again, this kind of material is lacking for Revolution. To a large 
extent, it is missing for pretty much every programming language in 
existence. Revolution may actually come closer than most languages 
and environments to doing what you want. It is missing the in-depth 
tutorial material. What Rev might need is an equivalent of the "... 
For Dummies" series of books. (I hate the title, but the series has 
some good books.) It needs something that starts from the ground up, 
assuming no prior programming knowledge, that holds a new users hand 
in learning all of the basic features of the language and environment.


What currently exists in Rev can be somewhat overwhelming for the new 
user. This is easy to forget for people who have struggled through it 
already and are now using the software productively. A lot of those 
folks were aided by having used HyperCard or some other xTalk 
environment in the past. Rev, like any other programming language, 
does have some concepts that don't have direct analogs in a spoken 
language. You need a way to tell the computer what to do in detail. 
It simply can't understand what you want without that detail, the way 
people can when you speak to them. The real problem in that 
translation between human speech and programming is that the two are 
not equivalent. When you tell a person to do something, they 
understand what you mean. A computer has to be told not only what to 
do, but how to do it - step by detailed step.


I am not an expert on Rev myself. I've been hanging out here for a 
few years, playing with the software and reading messages on the 
mailing list. Since I just play around, I keep debating whether or 
not I want to keep renewing my license each year. I find the software 
and the mailing lists to be fun, creative environments and keep 
renewing so far. In another couple of months I have to make that 
decision again. I'm not sure whether I'll go with it or not this 
time. But, Rev is, even given all the work it takes to get going, 
still one of easiest, most productive programming environments you 
are likely to encounter. If Runtime Revolution keep working to 
improve the user experience, it might eventually get closer to what 
you want. I still think it is probably the closest that you will find.


-Rodney
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Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval"

[Bob Warren]

The Rev for Linux "Seal of Approval" doesn't exist. I'd like to suggest 
it, but perhaps under the more practical heading of "Currently approved 
Linux distros" for use with the Runtime Revolution programming system.


There are hundreds of Linux distros out there, all at different stages 
of development, and with slightly different characteristics - 
particularly in the details of the file system. In my view, such a 
situation is perfectly natural and normal, and it is just a question of 
time before commonly-agreed standards and greater uniformity arise. We 
all remember what cars looked like a few years ago. You could, for 
example, tell an American car a mile off, and nobody could ever mistake 
it for an English Minicar, a German Beetle, or one of those French cars 
that looked like a baby's inverted pram. Nowadays, because of a natural 
process of optimization and other factors, it is very difficult at first 
glance to identify whether a car is American, Japanese, European, or 
whatever.


From a programming point of view, the current situation is very 
intimidating, not only for Runtime Revolution, but also for anyone 
hoping to program in Rev for Linux generally rather than for a 
particular distro. However, the first great hurdle has been overcome by 
Rev: the IDE runs successfully on just about any distro you can find, 
whether installed on the HD, or running on a ramdisk using a Live CD. 
Heck, it runs beautifully even on Puppy Linux! However, what we need to 
evaluate as Rev programmers is whether any particular distro is worth 
supporting at all in its current state, and whether the peculiar 
characteristics of its file system are worth catering for in terms of 
time and energy devoted to our programming efforts.


A great way of evaluating a considerable number of the distros out there 
is to adopt the hobby of collecting live CDs. You just pop them in your 
drive, boot up your machine, and Bob's your uncle. Of course, if you 
have some kind of Linux already installed on your HD then this is a 
help, since a lot of Linuxes running in RAM make use of the HD's swap 
partition if one is available, but this is normally not essential, and I 
have never tried a live CD and had any kind of subsequent trouble with 
my Windows as a result of accidental interference with the HD. For 
anyone interested in trying out Linux together with Rev, there is a 
great list of live CDs at http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php 
which can be downloaded and burned.


So what criteria should be used for selecting "Rev approved" Linux 
distros? I suggest the following stringent list:


1. The distro runs or installs automatically (i.e. can be done by a 
layman) and configures all normal hardware, even on old machines, 
including Windows network printers, floppy diskette drives, etc.


2. The distro plays all normal files (AVI, MP3, BMP, PDF, DOC, - i.e. 
common Linux AND Windows files) automatically "out of the box". By this, 
when the file is clicked or double clicked, it is already associated 
with an appropriate utility to play or show it, and the program doesn't 
break or lack codecs, etc.


3. The Rev IDE (and consequently Rev standalones!) runs OK and looks good.

Applying the above at this very moment, out of the 300 or so distros 
available, no more than a few are left. (I don't know the number 
exactly, because I haven't tried out anything like all the distros. 
Perhaps you can help with this evaluation.) And there are some 
surprises. I have always been a great fan of Ubuntu, and apart from its 
wonderful social philosophy, I think it shows the greatest potential of 
all the Linuxes, but at the moment it fails dismally over criterion #2. 
Red Hat Linux, one of the original most famous distros, supported 
indirectly by Rev in that they give special attention to "RPM" 
packaging, is such a big flop over criteria #1 and #2 that you might not 
even get as far as evaluating #3. Their new Fedora Linux - which looks 
like a copy of Ubuntu, except that it uses their own RPM packaging - is 
not much better, at least not on my old Pentium II with a very simple 
hardware configuration. In my limited experience, the only distros which 
roughly fulfill criteria #1-3 above are:


a) Puppy Linux (!!)
b) Linspire
c) Kurumin (Brazilian Linux, an improved Knoppix)

The case of MEPIS is rather tragic. It fulfills criteria #1-3 very well, 
but unlike the other Linuxes, Rev looks really crappy in it. The Rev 
font set (which appears to be independent of the system fonts chosen for 
the OS) is all small and spidery.


Of course, other Linux users/experimenters are likely to disagree with 
my own subjective selection, and naturally the exact files for testing 
under criterion #2 is a thing which needs to be agreed upon. At this 
very moment I would have the tendency to suggest the following in 
relation to Rev's "seal of approval":


I. Since Ubuntu is one of the most stable and popular distros out there, 
and it has a magnif

Re: hilitedLine

[FlexibleLearning]

 
> How do I cancel the hilight in a list box so that when the card  opens no 
line is selected? 
 
Set the hilitedLines of fld "MyListFld" to 0
 
/H

 
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Re: MS-SQL Database problem

[Mark Wieder]

Ton-

Monday, July 3, 2006, 9:37:30 AM, you wrote:

> Hi, fellow Revolutionaires...

> I have a strange problem:

> I'm using RR 2.7.2 Enterprise on OS X 10.4.7

> I'm connecting to a SQL Server through an ODBC connection, no problem
> so far.
> When I retrieve data from the SQL Server, all fields come over just
> fine, except DateTime fields...

> There are 2 of these fields, each containing a value like "28-06-2006
> 00:00"

> When I use  the code below to get the data, the value I get for the
> date is truncated and changed to "2006-06-"...

DateTime formats on SQLServer are IMO a bit weird, and I've run into
conversion problems with them before, too. Not just in rev. I believe
SQLServer by default uses MDY encoding, which might explain why it's
stopping when it gets to trying to convert the 28th month. You can
issue a DATEFORMAT command to SQLServer on a per-connection basis to
change this, no matter what format the dates are stored in:

SET DATEFORMAT DMY

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Reset Locals?

[Scott Rossi]

Recently, Peter T. Evensen wrote:

> I think what Trevor said is if you modify you script to be:
> 
> local myCheck = ""
> on mouseUp
>if myCheck = "" then
>  put 5 into myCheck
>else put 2 into myCheck
>answer myCheck
> end mouseUp
> 
> (Note the assignment to myCheck in the local declaration)  Then you will
> get the desired result (as you did in 2.6.x)

Thanks Peter -- the above does indeed work for me.  And after re-reading the
What'sNew docs, they do state that locals must now be explicitly set to some
value, as opposed to simply declared.

Thanks to the folks who chimed in as well regarding the access of a script's
local values. :-)

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
-
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.tactilemedia.com


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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Devin Asay]

On Jul 6, 2006, at 10:07 AM, GregSmith wrote:



I'll just repeat what I initially stated:

I think multimedia authoring software should be intuitive enough,  
and well
documented enough to allow a fairly non-technical user to do  
amazing things

without constantly needing to ask assistance from local forum gurus.

The foundational educational material for learning Revolution from the
standpoint of a total non-programmer seems to be missing.  That's  
the gist

of my own personal dilemma.


Greg, have a look at my site at http://revolution.byu.edu. These are  
the tutorial materials that we use here at BYU to teach Revolution to  
non-techie humanities majors. Click the "Revolution Tutorials by  
Topic" link. If you follow the links roughly in the order they are  
presented on that page you will get a step-by-step introduction to  
Revolution.


HTH

Devin

Devin Asay
Humanities Technology and Research Support Center
Brigham Young University

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Re: hilitedLine

[Mark Schonewille]

Hi Jared,

Chris' solution won't work on Mac OS X. I don't know about other  
platforms. The following works for me:


on preopenCard
  set the hilitedlines of fld 1 to 0
  set the traversalon of fld 1 to false
end preopenCard

on openCard
  set the traversalon of fld 1 to true
end openCard


Best,

Mark


--

Economy-x-Talk
Consultancy and Software Engineering
http://economy-x-talk.com
http://www.salery.biz

Download ErrorLib at http://economy-x-talk.com/developers.html and  
get full control of error handling in Revolution.




Op 6-jul-2006, om 18:27 heeft Jared Smith het volgende geschreven:


I think it would suffice to set the focus somewhere else when the card
opens...do you need it to be focused?



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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Viktoras Didziulis]

Hi all! 
 
That's a blog-like post on several related threads in this discussion. I
hope it still makes some sense :-) 
 
Indeed, why can't we accept the fact, that there are no modern and outdated
programming tools, but there are different tools for different tasks, and as
well as everywhere - fashions, leaders and marginals. In real life one
requires Assembly to code a device, driver, or implement timely feedback in
life support system, nuclear reactor control system or drive a spacecraft.
Although some folks out there claim that Assembly (and whatever else comes
to their mind) is dead. However no single tool is ever enough for any
serious development. Like when you need to clean a room you would rather use
a vacuum cleaner, not a toothbrush. Or how do you like vacuum-cleaning your
tooth ;-) 
 
Therefore many interpreted languages and tools like
Transcript/Metacard/Revolution, have been initially created as gluing
languages to minimize programming efforts and make a better use of resources
written in any of the compiled high performance languages. So now the
programmer can write just a tiny portion of code in low level, an then
switch to higher for the rest of it. 
 
In my [1 cent worth if at all] opinion the strongest sides of the Revolution
RAD in comparison with tools like Perl, Python, Tcl/Tk, Ruby or Visual Basic
is not it's natural syntax, but multi-platform compatibility plus GUI
oriented approach. So we can start writing eye-candy apps easily what
increases motivation as results are visible at once. Regarding the syntax of
the Transcript I would think one can get used to any syntax if he needs the
job to get done. Once you learn it by doing, master it, syntax does not
matter anymore. For example Perl is the language I was used to, so in this
regard my work with transcript is slower until I get used to the new tool.
But at least I can create nice-looking GUIs in a matter of minutes :-).
There also are other people out there that are used to Assembly so much that
they created entire operating system with it (Menuet OS project). So what's
outdated ?.. 
 
Though you really really need to learn by doing - laymen's approach just
does not work at all. It only then becomes intuitive like many other things
like riding a bicycle, swimming, learning a foreign language or rapid typing
techniques. Innitially all these activities may seem counter-intuitive and
very unnatural. While in fact there is no such thing as
counter-intuitiveness but maybe just a lack of motivation... 
 
Well, learning takes time. To master something new - the first foreign
language, the first programming language, starting own business for the
first time, as Japanese proverb says "one needs to sit 3 years on the rock
to get it warm". Then it may take as long as 10 years or infinity until one
starts creating masterpieces :-). But if one is already experienced in the
field by speaking a language or creating programs, then it takes just a
fraction of time to apply same principles over different "syntax". 
 
Revolution studio is really one of the best programing environments I have
used taking into account that it is also multiplatform because it 
1) operates on multiple OSes and is easy to code 
2) allows easy creation of GUIs 
3) can deploy multiplatform standalones within a single file 
 
But, as everything, it also has its weak sides: 
1) lack of a printed manual covering at least basics in all aspects of
Revolution and Transcript. Dan's book is really helpful to start with
(thanks Dan !), but then it ends in the middle of the story :-(. I would
rather expect manuals coming in 2 books - one, starter kit, in the style of 
teach yourself in 24 hours" SAMS publishing series on programing and the
other very detailed reference like Oreily series of programming. This would
also attract many customers as coverage of these publishing houses is global
indeed - many books of theirs get translated into Russian and other major
languages. Currently many people do not know about Revolution just because
they haven't seen SAMS or Oreily book on it in their libraries. 
2) delayed support for Linux... 
3) some things like table field still need to be improved to act by default
(without external modules) as users would expect it from their experience in
spreadsheet programs. Like when you hit enter, cursor moves to the field
below, not a new line. Or when you press backspace it starts deleting
contents of all the cells to the left - this should be limited to a single
cell. 
4) limited speed - normal for interpreted languages, but this has to be
compensated by convenient and flexible "gluing" features which I think are
quite good in Rev. 
 
And finally what if Rev studio could become a RAD not just for Transcript,
but also for Perl, Python, Ruby, Tcl? I guess it would gain much larger
market share - just like Active State tools on steroids. This should not be
impossibly complex as GUIs for these languages are all based on Tk widgets
(Perl/Tk, Python/Tk, R

Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Andre Garzia]

Greg,

If you click on "Documentation"

And select "Getting Started"

you'll see: Quick Start, Sample Projects, Using Objects, Sample  
Scripts, Using Scripts and In Depth.


All those links include photos, text and video aimed to teach you.

Besides that, you have Dan Shafer Book which is a very good resource  
for learning.


You also have all the internet sites made by us to help xTalkers out  
there.


Revolution Media comes with templates that you can inspect.

RevOnline has dozens of users submiting projects easy to follow that  
will help anyone.


The Rev Forum is full of topics and people do answer.

This list is been in use since forever and people here help each  
other. No one is an island.


You have books, documentation, shots, sites, fora, lists, even chat  
in case you wanted to talk with us


What more do you want

Revolution is not Multimedia Authoring Software like Flash!  
Revolution is a computer language that can also be used for  
multimedia, and for a lot of other things too. I for one, use it for  
networking apps. Others here use it for Information management and  
some for multimedia... Revolution is a complete computer language.


You said that Rev should enable "fairly non-technical user to do  
amazing things", I am pretty young here but I've seen many come as  
newbies and in very short time produce amazing stacks. Everytime I  
see that, it makes me smile...


I think you're bluring the line between very complex softwares like  
Flash and Rev.


Please check:

About Rev http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runtime_Revolution

About Flash http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash





On Jul 6, 2006, at 1:07 PM, GregSmith wrote:



I'll just repeat what I initially stated:

I think multimedia authoring software should be intuitive enough,  
and well
documented enough to allow a fairly non-technical user to do  
amazing things

without constantly needing to ask assistance from local forum gurus.

The foundational educational material for learning Revolution from the
standpoint of a total non-programmer seems to be missing.  That's  
the gist

of my own personal dilemma.

I do appreciate most of your replies, but having to go through this  
kind of
verbal ordeal in order to learn a thing is precisely the reason I  
don't want
to use a forum as a learning tool or depend upon the reactions of  
the local
gurus.  I want to learn alone.  The resources which would allow me  
to do
this from the ground up, using Transcript and Revolution, as a  
single tool,

do not exist.

Thank you,

Greg Smith
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Dependence-on- 
Programming-Experts-tf1893108.html#a5202649

Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com.

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Re: hilitedLine

[Chris Sheffield]

Preston,

Don't know if you've found the answer yet or not, but it's actually  
quite easy.


set the hilitedLine of fld "myField" to empty

I would recommend placing this in your preOpenCard handler.


Have fun,
Chris


On Jul 6, 2006, at 7:28 AM, Preston Shea wrote:

How do I cancel the hilight in a list box so that when the card  
opens no line is selected? Thanks.

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--
Chris Sheffield
Read Naturally
The Fluency Company
http://www.readnaturally.com
--


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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Richard Gaskin]

GregSmith wrote:


I think multimedia authoring software should be intuitive enough, and well
documented enough to allow a fairly non-technical user to do amazing things
without constantly needing to ask assistance from local forum gurus.


If you keep looking you might find the multimedia authoring software 
you're looking for.  But if you're looking for a programming environment 
you'll get tired of running into the walls of such point-and-click tools 
pretty quickly.



I want to learn alone.


FWIW, I've not known anyone one who's learned any programming language 
without some contact with others.  I'm sure it could be done, but less 
easily.


Given the inherent imperfections of this planet you will at least 
encounter anomalies, and others who've dealt with them before can share 
solutions for those quickly.


And there are at least a million other reasons why sharing knowledge in 
a community is worthwhile.


The second thing I do when I'm learning a new language (after reviewing 
the token set) is signing on to the language's main mailing list.


While much of the task of programming may be solitary, I believe most of 
the learning of programming is inherently a social activity. 
Programming is such a big, flexible world, I've seen no book that could 
come close to what a good community can do for one's learning, and there 
seems something magical about programming that generally attracts 
personalities who are prone to sharing.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: hilitedLine

[Jared Smith]

I think it would suffice to set the focus somewhere else when the card
opens...do you need it to be focused?

On 7/6/06, Preston Shea <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

How do I cancel the hilight in a list box so that when the card opens no line 
is selected? Thanks.
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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Rodney Somerstein]

Dan & Rodney:

O.K., now, just as I was salivating over the potential usefulness and joy of
using Squeak, Rodney comes along and throws water all over me.  Which is it?
Who is right?  I haven't yet had time to look at the actual Squeak language,
but I did see that incredibly direct and simple "kids" example of using
Squeak over at SqueakLand, or is it SmallTalkLand?  EToys.  And then there
is the integration of all the functionality that the Alice environment
offered, brought over into SqueakLand, or whatever it is called.  Is it all
too good to be really true?

My initial impressions of this environment were that it teaches new users,
even kids, to apprehend, to comprehend the concepts involved in programming,
so that, after those things are grasped, then the cryptic programming
terminology can be introduced which, if those are introduced first, confuses
the heck out of anyone wanting to learn to program.  Even if a programming
language is English-like, what is needed beyond and prior to learning lines
of "code" is really understanding sequences of events and why they need to
be in the order that they need to be in to get the machine to respond
properly.  Right?



Greg,

Smalltalk and the Squeak implementation in particular are good first 
programming languages. However, Smalltalk tends to be very 
specialized and it is hard to produce an application that you can 
give to other people to install. If you just want to learn and have 
something you can play with, then Squeak isn't a bad choice. As Dan 
stated, though, it is hard to produce applications that you can then 
deploy elsewhere.


The main problem, in my view, is that Smalltalk environments are 
pretty much unlike anything else you will encounter on your computer. 
Yes, you can learn programming concepts. But, you will then likely 
end up learning another language afterward to produce usable 
software. Unfortunate, but that is the current state of the art. As 
Smalltalk has been around for a long time, that is unlikely to change 
anytime in the near future.


Programming itself is actually pretty easy. You just have to take 
small steps. Understand that you won't sit down and in one night 
understand how to do everything. If you work through tutorials in 
your chosen environment, you will learn basic concepts in pretty much 
any language you choose. After awhile, you will be able to combine 
those concepts to create very involved applications. Programming is 
only hard if you look at it as a whole. The pieces are generally 
easy. The terminology, which you rightly complained about, comes 
along with that learning.


-Rodney
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Re: Reset Locals?

[Rob Cozens]

Hi Scott,


I'm still curious though... I seem to remember seeing this on the list many
many moons ago: is there a way to access the local variables of a script
from outside the script?  Something like:

  get the myCoolVar of script of btn 2

Was I dreaming or is this possible?


It's quite simple: just add a getLocal function and a setLocat 
command to the script where the local is declared:


local myCoolVar

function getMy CoolVar
return myCoolVar
end getMyCoolVar

on setMyCoolVar newValue
put newValue into myCoolVar
end setMyCoolVar

From elsewhere in the stack: send "setMyCoolVar"&&newValue to controlWithScript
--

Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company

"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."

from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[GregSmith]

I'll just repeat what I initially stated:

I think multimedia authoring software should be intuitive enough, and well
documented enough to allow a fairly non-technical user to do amazing things
without constantly needing to ask assistance from local forum gurus.

The foundational educational material for learning Revolution from the
standpoint of a total non-programmer seems to be missing.  That's the gist
of my own personal dilemma.

I do appreciate most of your replies, but having to go through this kind of
verbal ordeal in order to learn a thing is precisely the reason I don't want
to use a forum as a learning tool or depend upon the reactions of the local
gurus.  I want to learn alone.  The resources which would allow me to do
this from the ground up, using Transcript and Revolution, as a single tool,
do not exist.

Thank you,

Greg Smith
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Dependence-on-Programming-Experts-tf1893108.html#a5202649
Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com.

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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Andre Garzia]

Greg,

before we all get moded


Greg, I said this three times, I was one of the first to ever answer  
to this thread and nobody seems to take notice...


Think simply, Flash, photoshop and the like are end user tools.  
Revolution is a programming language, so programming skills are  
desired or acquired along the way.


I've coded in dozens of languages, I could be called a language junky  
is this thing is ever existant. Revolution is by far the most easy of  
the languages out there.


I too coded in Squeak but Rev still easier. The object oriented  
paradigm looks marvelous in theory but so one besides smalltalk ever  
managed to implement it in a good maner. And objects don't appear out  
of nowhere, you still need to code them.


There's a very good book by Dan Shafer, you can buy it on eBook  
format, that will teach you what revolution is all about.


Rev is a programming language, there's no way you'll ever do  
something without programming.


The desire to learn should be greater than the desire to change. One  
cannot change something without learning it first.


Please don't talk about  groans and grunts. You're using a computer  
not talking to a human, it's not grunts and groans, it's just a way  
that the computer will be able to understand and yet not too hard.  
Also your complaints about the "dumb down" parlance, thats common  
computer jargon, it's not aimed at you, thats just what everyone  
calls when it needs to strip out complex features.


I don't understand why you're with a computer programming language in  
a computer programming list, full of supporters, every single one  
trying to help you and yet, you complain and don't even try the  
solutions posted.


andre

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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[J. Landman Gay]

Greg,

My sincere apologies for an unfortunately worded post. I should have 
phrased it better so that you didn't take my remarks personally. By 
"dumbed down" I meant that to accomplish what you are asking, 
Revolution's feature set would have to be drastically reduced -- i.e., 
"dumber". Revolution does provide quite a few libraries when it ships 
that actually attempt to consolidate hundreds of lines of scripting into 
a few single commands. There are pre-written libraries for internet 
access, for databases, for geometry management, and so forth. They 
aren't point-and-click though, you still have to use scripting to work 
with them. A point and click interface could be built with Revolution, 
actually. But it would provide only a small subset of what is available 
in the engine natively.


If you continue to read this list, I think you'll find that I have a 
reputation as one of the least offensive people here. I've been at this 
a long time, so if I've slipped up and unintentionally insulted you, I 
am very sorry. Revolution users are by no means dumb. I was refering to 
the software, not the users.


Having followed this thread now for a few days, my personal opinion is 
that Revolution isn't really what you are looking for. It is a 
programming environment, and there isn't really any way to get around 
that. It is the easiest and most accessible environment I know of, but 
it does require a learning curve. It doesn't sound like this is what you 
are looking for.



GregSmith wrote:

Jacqueline:

I think you are using completely the wrong terminology to describe what I
want a program like Revolution to do for me.  You use the entirely insulting
phrase "dumbed down" with regard to making Revolution more friendly to a
user like myself.  Better polish up those social skills of yours.  If
Revolution is so "dumb" already, that it cannot become accessable and
immediately useful to a person such as myself, then it is Revolution that
needs to be "smartened up", making it more accessable and useful, not
"dumbed down" as you so tactlessly have put it.  


Why must an intelligent person be made to twist his organized and fruitful
thinking into something less than that?  Why also, must such a person be
forced to address a machine with terms and phrases and sequences that are
alien and unnatural, not catering to the needs of that user, but rather
forcing the user to lower himself to communicate in the primal grunts and
groans that the machine is used to responding to?

Greg Smith



--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Reset Locals?

[Randy Hengst]

Scott

The script works as you expect on OSX 10.4.2 with Studio 2.7.2.

New stack, new button your script = 5 the first time and then 2.

Copy the button and click the copy, 5 the first time and then 2.

BTW, the answer box doesn't appear to be delayed in showing itself  
either.


take care,
randy hengst
--

On Jul 6, 2006, at 2:06 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:



Message: 14
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 21:42:14 -0700
From: Scott Rossi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Reset Locals?
To: How to use Revolution 
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="US-ASCII"

Recently, Trevor DeVore wrote:



script locals are only preserved across script compilation if you
set the preserveVariables to true
Otherwise 2.7 behaves as previous engines.


Thanks, but this doesn't seem to be the case here (OSX 10.3.9, Rev  
2.7.2).


New stack/button script:

local myCheck
on mouseUp
  if myCheck = "" then
put 5 into myCheck
  else put 2 into myCheck
  answer myCheck
end mouseUp

After the first "check", the value of myCheck is consistently 2,  
even when

the script is edited.  Rev says the preserveVariables is false.

In previous versions (for me), any time the script is edited, the  
local is

reset.  I just checked with 2.6.1 and this is the case.

The only two reasons I can think of why this might be are 1) it's  
an OSX
10.3.9 thing (as opposed to 10.4), or it's something the Rev guys  
are fixing

for 2.7.3. ???

(Also, why is the answer dialog so slow to appear in Rev 2.7?  2.6  
is way

faster.)

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design


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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Randy Hengst]

Hi Greg,

A Rev newbie response for you.

I played with HyperCard a bit in the mid 90s -- bought several books  
on scripting in HyperTalk and was able after taking apart the scripts  
of others build some useable educational games for elementary school  
kids. By the way, Cosmic Osmo was (is) a HyperCard stack(s).


I then moved to HyperStudio because of its cross-platform abilities.  
Its scripting language (HyperLogo) is based, as you might guess, on  
Logo. So, it felt awkward to use since it isn't the same language as  
HyperTalk, but the basic ideas are similar. I bought books and went  
through the HyperStudio/HyperLogo tutorials. I've developed about 40  
projects for elementary aged kids. There also was a very active  
HyperLogo list serve that was helpful for getting quick answers to  
questions.


I've now been playing with Rev on and off (as time has allowed) for  
about a year. The transition from Logo to Transcript has been a bit  
award, but again, the basics are the same as I used before.


The catch for you is to get the basics. You're right -- in one sense  
-- about the tutorial issue. There isn't one handy place to go -- one  
book to read. However, Dan's book has been mentioned and others have  
offered places to look. Take advantage of the video tutorials on the  
Rev website, go through the scripting conferences that are also  
available on the site. Ask questions on the this list and review the  
archives. There is a language you need to learn. And, if you're  
anything like me, there will be a bit of feeling like you've been  
dropped down in a foreign land where you must learn the language by  
hearing it and using it.


But, for all this to make sense and for you to get an idea of what  
the "basics" are for your needs, you need a project. You need an  
audience.  How about doing something that got me started? Make  
something for kids to play with -- I used my kids, but there are  
plenty around. Or, how about picking your favorite card (spot) in  
Myst and trying to make it work? -- like how to get over to the clock  
tower. Or, drag out your copy of Cosmic Osmo and try to duplicate  
some of its functionality? You'll need to hide and show things, play  
sounds, define hot spots.  I bet mouseEnter, mouseLeave, and play  
audioClip will be handy. You could likely recreate one of those  
scenes without defining one variable. But, as you're making the  
scene, you might think -- how do I know what order the user clicked  
on the hot spot? Or, maybe you'll want to make sure the user clicks  
spot xxx before spot zzz. Then, you'll have a reason to store  
something in a container (variable) to retrieve at another point.


Rev is much more powerful than HyperStudio -- and, hence, will take  
more time to master. But, I don't expect to ever learn it all in Rev.  
In fact, I won't learn anything else in Rev -- until some project I  
dream up needs it.  Heck, after 7 years of using HyperLogo I didn't  
know it all there either. But, each project I created helped me learn  
some new bit of scripting that I hadn't needed before or helped me  
refine by scripting technique to make things faster or less cumbersome.


So enjoy the intellectual and creative opportunities Rev offers and  
start scripting.


Well, enough of my ramblings...

take care,
randy hengst
-
On Jul 6, 2006, at 2:06 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:



Message: 3
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 18:57:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: GregSmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Dependence on Programming Experts
To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ANSI_X3.4-1968


Bj?rnke:

I didn't specifiy precisely what it is I want to achieve in my last  
post

because it was already long enough.  I actually have several different
projects in mind that I would, before I die, like to try to  
accomplish, but
don't know if they are realistic for one guy, working alone.  I  
know I can
do the graphics and the basic interactivity, but these projects go  
deeper

than that:

1.  The adventure game "kit" to end them all.  I don't play many  
games, and
the only ones I found to be engaging were the ancient ones like  
King's Quest

and Myst.  King's Quest, because it was cheerful, pleasant, encouraged
thinking and had some mystery  -  and, best of all, it was full of  
fantasy -
and bloodless, for the most part.  Myst, because it took you to  
large empty

places and let you look around, all over the place, solve moderately
difficult puzzles, read a story and . . .look all over the  
place . . .
and hear strange sounds and music.  Pretty mindless, but it kept  
you going

and was a good sequel to Cosmic Osmo, which I also liked a lot.


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Re: how the internet works : the official explanation

[Andre Garzia]

Hey Barry,

I said that my pigeons were SUPER CLEVER I know about homing  
pigeons, but, my pigeons have a disfunctional personality and think  
they have more then one home... you just go like:


OWNER: "now, you're steve, and you home is in cupertino"
PIGEON: "Gurl! Gurl!"
OWNER: "repeat my name is steve, my home is in cupertino"
PIGEON: "Gurl! Gurl!"
OWNER: "my name, is, steve..."
PIGEON: "Gurlpertinoo"
OWNER: "Off you go boy!"

After the piegon arrives...

OWNER: "Okay, good boy, take a pigeon cookie (or whatever pigeon eats)"
PIGEON: "Gurlpertino"
OWNER: "Now, you're Larry and your home is in california..."
PIGEON: "Gurlpertinooo"
OWNER: "Larry, in california..."
PIGEON: "GOORGLE"

an so on

man I really should not write emails before coffee.

andre

On Jul 6, 2006, at 7:22 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

The pigeon - airplane metaphore was certainly well contrived by  
Andre but care should be taken in copying it literally (n.b. Peter  
and Dan).


Pigeons CANNOT make round trips or even deliver outgoing messages!
 If you want one to carry a message you must first take the bird to  
the starting point (probably by plane), attach the message and then  
send it home (hence the name 'homing pigeon').
 That is: only the owner of the pigeon can receive a message  
carried by it and if they try to send OUT a message the bird will

just fly in circles with it around their own house!

Internet-wise this would be like taking a blank message by hand, or  
snailmail, to a friend and waiting for them fill it in and send it  
back by email!


As for the Senators discorse I can only add the Italian Parliament  
Member's declaration that "internet should be taught in schools",  
whatever that means, anyway most teachers would probably have to  
learn from the students!


"Every Government should carry a Health Warning"

OK, I'm rambling again.
Thanks for all the kind answers to my first 'ramblings'
Barry



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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Stephen Barncard]

Greg, look at some APL or C source code. Then you might understand 
why we use Transcript. It doesn't get better than this.


I don't see any "grunts or groans" in it. I see an English-like 
language that most of us can 'get' after a couple of weeks 
experimenting. The stuff we don't know yet we can look up.


A program is nothing more than a list of things to do. Period. That 
list requires statements. What would you propose this list be 
comprise of? Pictures?


If you can't see that, and that 'technical stuff' is bothering you 
then perhaps Revolution and programming in general is not for you.


sqb



Jacqueline:

The real question that needs to be answered is, why now, with the tools of
today, like Squeak or Croquet, would I want to resort to "coding" using the
grunts and groans of yesteryear?  I'm sorry for those many years you and
others have toiled away trying to master those alien techniques "required"
to make a machine do relatively simple things.  I don't have a lot of years
left to start from the point people like you started at many years ago.  We
should have come farther by now and should not be satisfied with anything
other than those tools which save us the most time and energy.  I made no
insult to any person by suggesting that standard "programming" is the
equivalent of communication using a series of grunts and groans.  The fact
that inventors of "modern" computer languages do not see beyond those
methods which have already spent the lives of millions of deskbound slaves
really constitutes the major technological insult.  It is the required use
of languages like these that force users like us to become "dumbed down".
Need we submit to this kind of humiliation?

Greg Smith


--
stephen barncard
s a n  f r a n c i s c o
- - -  - - - - - - - - -
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udp: determine local port?

[John Craig]

Is it possible for rev to determine the local port used to send udp data?

Thanks,

JC

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Re: Reset Locals?

[Peter T. Evensen]

I think what Trevor said is if you modify you script to be:

local myCheck = ""
on mouseUp
  if myCheck = "" then
put 5 into myCheck
  else put 2 into myCheck
  answer myCheck
end mouseUp

(Note the assignment to myCheck in the local declaration)  Then you will 
get the desired result (as you did in 2.6.x)


At 11:42 PM 7/5/2006, you wrote:

Recently, Trevor DeVore wrote:

> script locals are only preserved across script compilation if you
>
> set the preserveVariables to true
>
> Otherwise 2.7 behaves as previous engines.

Thanks, but this doesn't seem to be the case here (OSX 10.3.9, Rev 2.7.2).

New stack/button script:

local myCheck
on mouseUp
  if myCheck = "" then
put 5 into myCheck
  else put 2 into myCheck
  answer myCheck
end mouseUp

After the first "check", the value of myCheck is consistently 2, even when
the script is edited.  Rev says the preserveVariables is false.

In previous versions (for me), any time the script is edited, the local is
reset.  I just checked with 2.6.1 and this is the case.

The only two reasons I can think of why this might be are 1) it's an OSX
10.3.9 thing (as opposed to 10.4), or it's something the Rev guys are fixing
for 2.7.3. ???

(Also, why is the answer dialog so slow to appear in Rev 2.7?  2.6 is way
faster.)

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
-
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.tactilemedia.com


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Peter T. Evensen
http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com
314-629-5248 or 888-682-4588 



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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Stephen Barncard]

Dude - you are SO wrong about Jacque -- she's the most tactful and 
the most helpful of all of us here. There was NOTHING in her response 
that wasn't both gentle and professional, and was not personal. And 
your logic makes no sense to me.


You want it easy? Then just learn some programming terms and stop 
asking for massive changes in the language that aren't going to 
happen. Many references here are universal among languages and there 
isn't any other way (EXCEPT A DUMB WAY) to make it like you think you 
want.



 I've never heard anyone complain about the TERMS before.. If you 
brand yourself as an intelligent person, then please stop complaining 
about this. You can't have it both ways.


Perhaps YOU should get a check on your email skills, re-read all the 
responses and stop being a victim. She won't tell you, but I will. 
And hire somebody to make your programs for you  - with your attitude 
you'll never get it done.




Jacqueline:

I think you are using completely the wrong terminology to describe what I
want a program like Revolution to do for me.  You use the entirely insulting
phrase "dumbed down" with regard to making Revolution more friendly to a
user like myself.  Better polish up those social skills of yours.  If
Revolution is so "dumb" already, that it cannot become accessable and
immediately useful to a person such as myself, then it is Revolution that
needs to be "smartened up", making it more accessable and useful, not
"dumbed down" as you so tactlessly have put it. 


Why must an intelligent person be made to twist his organized and fruitful
thinking into something less than that?  Why also, must such a person be
forced to address a machine with terms and phrases and sequences that are
alien and unnatural, not catering to the needs of that user, but rather
forcing the user to lower himself to communicate in the primal grunts and
groans that the machine is used to responding to?

Greg Smith


--
stephen barncard
s a n  f r a n c i s c o
- - -  - - - - - - - - -
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Re: beta testers for unicode needed

[Mark Schonewille]

Sounds promising, will test after the weekend. Thanks for your efforts.

Best,

Mark

--

Economy-x-Talk
Consultancy and Software Engineering
http://economy-x-talk.com
http://www.salery.biz

Download ErrorLib at http://economy-x-talk.com/developers.html and  
get full control of error handling in Revolution.




Op 6-jul-2006, om 13:02 heeft Thierry Arbellot het volgende geschreven:


Hello all,

As you may know, Revolution is not able to open a file if the path  
or the filename contains unicode characters.
Then, I've developed an external to work around this problem and  
use it in the last version of my shareware Toki TC.

I successfully tested it with Korean characters.

To complete the test, can someone on the list try with other  
languages, that are not western languages, and let me know the  
result ?


What you need:
- a Mac with OS X 10.2 or higher (should work in Mac Intel but not  
tested yet)
- download Toki TC from this link http://perso.orange.fr/hal/ 
tokitc1.3b1.zip

- a movie with unicode characters in the path and/or the filename
- start Toki TC and open the movie
Toki TC should be able to open the movie, play it and display its  
filename in the window title.


What doesn't work (yet):
- display the name in the "open recent file" menu
- drag and drop the file in the player

I plan to make a Windows version, and then share the externals with  
the community.


Thank you,
Thierry



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Re: FTP process doesn't complete

[Dave Cragg]

On 6 Jul 2006, at 12:59, stevex64 wrote:



Hi all,

I'm making a simple ftp client for a customer. They click a button  
to select
a file and it automatically starts the upload. Server, username,  
password
are all built in to the app so the user doesn't have to know  
anything but to

click the button and find the file.

This works fine on my laptop running WinXP, but it doesn't work  
right on 2
desktop pc's running the same OS. I have a text field that displays  
n bytes
of nnn bytes uploaded, just the default upload status message. When  
the file

is fully uploaded, that text is supposed to change to "file upload
successful". On the two pc's where it doesn't work, it gets to nnn  
bytes of
nnn bytes uploaded and then goes no further. It doesn't say the  
upload was

successful, and when I finally kill the process, the file has not been
uploaded to the ftp server.

Any ideas? Thanks for any help!


First, what version of libUrl are you using? Some changes were added  
in 1.1.5 which overcame some problems similar to what you describe.  
You can get the latest version here (1.1.6):


  http://www.lacscentre.co.uk/liburl/releases.html

If that doesn't help, try following Martin's suggestions.

Cheers
Dave
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hilitedLine

[Preston Shea]

How do I cancel the hilight in a list box so that when the card opens no line 
is selected? Thanks.
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beta testers for unicode needed

[Thierry Arbellot]

Hello all,

As you may know, Revolution is not able to open a file if the path or 
the filename contains unicode characters.
Then, I've developed an external to work around this problem and use it 
in the last version of my shareware Toki TC.

I successfully tested it with Korean characters.

To complete the test, can someone on the list try with other languages, 
that are not western languages, and let me know the result ?


What you need:
- a Mac with OS X 10.2 or higher (should work in Mac Intel but not 
tested yet)
- download Toki TC from this link 
http://perso.orange.fr/hal/tokitc1.3b1.zip

- a movie with unicode characters in the path and/or the filename
- start Toki TC and open the movie
Toki TC should be able to open the movie, play it and display its 
filename in the window title.


What doesn't work (yet):
- display the name in the "open recent file" menu
- drag and drop the file in the player

I plan to make a Windows version, and then share the externals with the 
community.


Thank you,
Thierry

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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Francis Nugent Dixon]

Hi from Paris,

I carefully followed the discussion, and for some
strange reason, the words of an old song floated
through my brain . It is a conversation between a
clown and a magician (no insult intended to
anybody who contributed to this thread)

Extract from Tarot Suite - Mike Batt - 1979

.
We both are right, said the sorcerer
And both of us are wrong
For though we walk this road
We don't know where it leads
We only know it's long
You have something to learn from me
And I can learn from you
You with your jokes and simple plans
And me with my tricks and sleight of hand
Together we could get through

Imbecile, we are dancing down a darkened road,
Though the stars are out, not one of us knows the way.
Imbeciles up ahead of us and millions more behind
And we're laughing and smiling,
That's why I say - we're all of us Imbeciles !

Sorry to throw the proverbial spanner .

-Francis


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Re: FTP process doesn't complete

[Martin Baxter]

stevex64 wrote:

Hi all,

I'm making a simple ftp client for a customer. They click a button to select
a file and it automatically starts the upload. Server, username, password
are all built in to the app so the user doesn't have to know anything but to
click the button and find the file.

This works fine on my laptop running WinXP, but it doesn't work right on 2
desktop pc's running the same OS. I have a text field that displays n bytes
of nnn bytes uploaded, just the default upload status message. When the file
is fully uploaded, that text is supposed to change to "file upload
successful". On the two pc's where it doesn't work, it gets to nnn bytes of
nnn bytes uploaded and then goes no further. It doesn't say the upload was
successful, and when I finally kill the process, the file has not been
uploaded to the ftp server.

Any ideas? Thanks for any help!

Steve Ralston


Hi Steve

1) Maybe there's a firewall interfering?

2) Might be a timeout problem. try pre-setting the socketTimeoutInterval 
to a higher value to see if it makes a difference. Default is 1, but 
I have found it often needs to be 2 on XP for some reason.


3) Otherwise, if possible, you should debug in situ using a log field to 
see what's going on.
(I've taken to building a log field facility into my apps that do this, 
as a sort of advanced feature the user can access under direction from 
me. Useful when these situations happen)


Martin Baxter
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FTP process doesn't complete

[stevex64]

Hi all,

I'm making a simple ftp client for a customer. They click a button to select
a file and it automatically starts the upload. Server, username, password
are all built in to the app so the user doesn't have to know anything but to
click the button and find the file.

This works fine on my laptop running WinXP, but it doesn't work right on 2
desktop pc's running the same OS. I have a text field that displays n bytes
of nnn bytes uploaded, just the default upload status message. When the file
is fully uploaded, that text is supposed to change to "file upload
successful". On the two pc's where it doesn't work, it gets to nnn bytes of
nnn bytes uploaded and then goes no further. It doesn't say the upload was
successful, and when I finally kill the process, the file has not been
uploaded to the ftp server.

Any ideas? Thanks for any help!

Steve Ralston
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/FTP-process-doesn%27t-complete-tf1900236.html#a5198275
Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com.
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Re: Reset Locals?

[Trevor DeVore]

On Jul 5, 2006, at 9:42 PM, Scott Rossi wrote:
Thanks, but this doesn't seem to be the case here (OSX 10.3.9, Rev  
2.7.2).


New stack/button script:

local myCheck
on mouseUp
  if myCheck = "" then
put 5 into myCheck
  else put 2 into myCheck
  answer myCheck
end mouseUp

After the first "check", the value of myCheck is consistently 2,  
even when

the script is edited.  Rev says the preserveVariables is false.

In previous versions (for me), any time the script is edited, the  
local is

reset.  I just checked with 2.6.1 and this is the case.

The only two reasons I can think of why this might be are 1) it's  
an OSX
10.3.9 thing (as opposed to 10.4), or it's something the Rev guys  
are fixing

for 2.7.3. ???


Hmm, I pasted your script into a button (2.7.2, OS X.4) and here is  
what I get with preserveVariables = false (default when launching Rev) -


First click: answer dialog with 5
Second click: answer dialog with 2

I then added some spaces to script and recompiled.  I get the same  
behavior as above indicating that myCheck was reset.


I then set the preserveVariables to true.  The answer dialog now  
displays "2" even after I recompile the script.


Odd that it doesn't work under 10.3.9.

--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Learning Systems - www.bluemangolearning.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: how the internet works : the official explanation

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

The pigeon - airplane metaphore was certainly well contrived by Andre but care 
should be taken in copying it literally (n.b. Peter and Dan).

Pigeons CANNOT make round trips or even deliver outgoing messages!
 If you want one to carry a message you must first take the bird to the 
starting point (probably by plane), attach the message and then send it home 
(hence the name 'homing pigeon').
 That is: only the owner of the pigeon can receive a message carried by it and 
if they try to send OUT a message the bird will
just fly in circles with it around their own house!

Internet-wise this would be like taking a blank message by hand, or snailmail, 
to a friend and waiting for them fill it in and send it back by email!

As for the Senators discorse I can only add the Italian Parliament Member's 
declaration that "internet should be taught in schools", whatever that means, 
anyway most teachers would probably have to learn from the students!

"Every Government should carry a Health Warning"

OK, I'm rambling again.
Thanks for all the kind answers to my first 'ramblings'
Barry



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Re: Possible New Book Titles

[Viktoras Didziulis]

 Hi Dan,
 
I would suggest adding a couple of sections on handling raster and vector
graphics in Revolution which would be helpful too.
Also all the basics and details on communicating with externals, libraries
and OS functions and devices would be good to have in same book :-)
 
Best regards
Viktoras
 
On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 23:33:06 -0700, "Dan Shafer" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> OK, I'm trying to figure out the best next subject on which to 
> produce a 
> SmartEBook eBooklet. The following topics remain on my list and are 
> candidates based on the relatively small likelihood that 
> fundamental changes 
> in Rev will obsolete them in the next year. I'd be interested in 
> votes, 
> feedback, other suggestions, etc. 
> 
> * Script-based commands 
> 
> Edit script, editscript, wait, do, scriptlimits, text/font related 
> properties, insert script, remove script, start using 
> 
> * The Message Box 
> 
> Examination of all panes, properties, uses of the Message Box 
> 
> * Debugging strategies and techniques 
> 
> * Parameters, Variables and Values in Transcript 
> 
> * Building and Deploying Standalones 
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Re: Possible New Book Titles

[Graham Samuel]

On Mon, 3 Jul 2006 23:33:06 -0700, "Dan Shafer"  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
OK, I'm trying to figure out the best next subject on which to  
produce a

SmartEBook eBooklet. The following topics remain on my list and are
candidates based on the relatively small likelihood that  
fundamental changes
in Rev will obsolete them in the next year. I'd be interested in  
votes,

feedback, other suggestions, etc.

* Script-based commands

Edit script, editscript, wait, do, scriptlimits, text/font related
properties, insert script, remove script, start using

* The Message Box

Examination of all panes, properties, uses of the Message Box

* Debugging strategies and techniques

* Parameters, Variables and Values in Transcript

* Building and Deploying Standalones


Hi Dan

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply - I agree with others that  
debugging is a very interesting topic. I've written a lot of Rev code  
but I have never got beyond the simplest debugging tools, because I  
never seem to have time to experiment with what's on offer,  
particularly in the 'Development' menu of the RunRev IDE. An eBooklet  
would help get round this, and I'd certainly buy it.


I'm also keen on the Standalones idea, particularly if it addresses  
the issue of platform-specific quirks and difficulties - at least for  
Mac and PC (sorry, Richmond).


This also leads me to suggest an eBooklet dedicated to cross-platform  
issues such as fonts (and font sizes), menus, OS pitfalls and the  
like: the aim would be to guide people trying to produce a single  
code base for a multi-platform app, and would cover stuff like why  
and where to put conditional code which queries which OS the prog is  
running in, etc.


HTH

Graham
(just off to buy your booklet on Printing)


Graham Samuel / The Living Fossil Co. / UK and France

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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[jbv]

Greg,

I'm glad you didn't find me rude...
When posting to a list, I'm always a bit scared to be misunderstood,
because :
- english isn't my native language and I'm always in a hurry
- I sometimes express some "abrasive" opinions that ppl from other
cultures may find a bit rude or shocking...

Anyway, as for becoming a programer, I hope you don't mind if I
share some experience. A few times I've been teaching the basics of
HC and its sequels (OMO, Rev...) to some friends with basic programing`
skills (at least they knew what a variable, a loop, an if-then-else structure
were)... I told them about the stack structure (cards, backgrounds, btns
& flds, scripts & handlers...) and the message passing hierarchy... It didn't 
take
more than A COUPLE OF HOURS... After that they were on their own.
Of course, they had to browse the docs to know the exact syntax and use
of each available function, property, etc. But they had a basic framework
in mind that allowed them to improve by themselves...
I'm sure anyone can follow the same path...

And as for the word "code", we all use it because we all consider it as one
of the most exciting and promisingword (the other one being "sex")...
In the information age in which we live, "code" contains the promises of
so many exciting things to discover, from computer science to genetics to
astrophysics (some scientists say that the universe could be a giant computer
program)... Very complex things can be generated from a few lines of code :
fractals, cellular automata, ADN...
So I suggest that you change your point of view regarding that word...
It might actually help you become a programer...

Best,
JB

> jbv:
>
> I didn't find your reply rude at all.  Curt, maybe, but definitely not rude.
>
> I don't reject the idea of needing to "program" to make things really,
> specifically useful.  Just, please don't call it that.  Also, if Revolution
> ever hopes to become the buddy of the non-technically oriented, everyone
> here needs to drop the use of the word "code".  It has terrible and
> terrifying implications.  Scares 'em right away.
>

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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Jim Ault]

Ahhh, I too like the concepts of object orientation.  Flash Actionscript
moves pretty far along this path.  Their advantage is that they have created
their own universe and all the objects are defined to work there.

Databases are also good candidates for object oriented approaches, but when
products come out that do this (Helix, Serious), they fail to deliver the
intricate power needed and fall by the wayside.

Compiling a program to work with a computer operating system is much
different, let alone more than one platform.  It is difficult to think that
you could take a trip from Seattle to Miami any time of the year in a Model
T.  The kit of 300 parts would not include disc brakes or climate control,
nor would it produce a car that could travel at 50-60 mph for hours.

Rev is more like a workshop with wonderful tools, some very powerful, some
primitive.  With this workshop you can build an amazing array of 'cars' or
buses or trailers or cabinets or furniture or refrigerators or fences or
even more power tools to build other tools and products.

Thus tools to build parts to build cars, but also tools to build tools to
build even more powerful tools to build planes and rockets.

One real world example is a web page designer who knows the craft, but
trying  using one of the hosting sites' template 'easy-to-build' tools.
Quite frustrating to have such limited options to satisfy the needs and
desires of a client.

I also know that I would not spend the hours trying to do what Scott Rossi
does with his cool stacks, and Richard Gaskin with his, and Chipp & Chris
with their products, and Sarah, Jacqueline, Ken, etc, etc.  Such complete
knowledge and experience is possible with Rev, but the years it would take
to get there!

So which areas would you build in as object oriented?

Jim Ault
Las Vegas

On 7/6/06 1:34 AM, "GregSmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> Chipp:
> 
> Thank you for your many replies to my questions.  I'll try to take your word
> regarding your programming language recommendation, but I really don't yet
> understand why you or Rodney feel this way.  Object orientation has always
> made complete sense to me  -  the encapsulation of very small functions and
> their assembly into larger components.  Traditional programming describes a
> sequence of events, detail by detail instead of an assemblage of simple
> parts.  This seems counter-intuitive to me.  As I understand it, Transcript
> is not object oriented.  It may have syntax that resembles English, but the
> construction of systems is what I am aiming at and it seems natural to
> define a system in terms of itty bitty parts that combine together to make
> bigger and more complex things.  Think of the Model T car.  Pretty useful,
> but really not all that complex considering it is made up of merely 300
> fairly simple parts.  Looked at a part at a time, creating a Model T seems
> quite within practical limits.
> 
> Greg Smith


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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[GregSmith]

Chipp:

Thank you for your many replies to my questions.  I'll try to take your word
regarding your programming language recommendation, but I really don't yet
understand why you or Rodney feel this way.  Object orientation has always
made complete sense to me  -  the encapsulation of very small functions and
their assembly into larger components.  Traditional programming describes a
sequence of events, detail by detail instead of an assemblage of simple
parts.  This seems counter-intuitive to me.  As I understand it, Transcript
is not object oriented.  It may have syntax that resembles English, but the
construction of systems is what I am aiming at and it seems natural to
define a system in terms of itty bitty parts that combine together to make
bigger and more complex things.  Think of the Model T car.  Pretty useful,
but really not all that complex considering it is made up of merely 300
fairly simple parts.  Looked at a part at a time, creating a Model T seems
quite within practical limits.

Greg Smith
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Dependence-on-Programming-Experts-tf1893108.html#a5195760
Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com.

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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Mark Smith]

On 6 Jul 2006, at 08:31, GregSmith wrote:
I'm not asking for a tool that does everything for me.  I'm asking  
for a

computer language that lets me translate my organized thoughts and
imagination into useful bits that, when assembled together, form  
working

components of a total working system.



Greg, what you describe is what pretty much every modern general- 
purpose programming language can claim to offer.


The ideas you have sound non-trivial to me, and it's going to take a  
serious and deep commitment from you to bring them into reality,  
whatever tools you choose.


An excerpt from  http://www.norvig.com/21-days.html

Researchers (Hayes, Bloom) have shown it takes about ten years to  
develop expertise in any of a wide variety of areas, including  
chess playing, music composition, painting, piano playing,  
swimming, tennis, and research in neuropsychology and topology.  
There appear to be no real shortcuts: even Mozart, who was a  
musical prodigy at age 4, took 13 more years before he began to  
produce world-class music.



Now I suspect that most people can do productive work in Revolution  
after a shorter period than ten years, but even with the best  
learning materials ever, there is inherently so much to assimilate,  
that it's not going to happen in days. What I think you have in mind  
would be quite major undertakings for even a very experienced developer.


As a good way in to it all, I'll also recommend Dans book 'Software  
at the speed of thought'.


Best,

Mark
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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Chipp Walters]

Hi Greg,

I think I understand what you want. And for that matter, I believe
many of us want it too. The fact is, computers *should* be much
simpler to use. We should be able to describe what we want it to do,
and have it done. Sadly, we're still a long way off. Computers aren't
getting simpler to use-- just the opposite. For there's this major
problem: The more powerful things we want to do, the more complicated
the tool becomes. This isn't new. Think of the original horse and
buggy, compared to our fancy cars. While we take for granted how easy
it is to drive, just imagine how hard it would be for someone who has
never seen a car. And computers are so much less finite in their
function.

All that said, none of us are getting younger, and I doubt our 5th or
6th generation computers will come along in our lifetime. So, in order
to produce what we want, we need to become students, then masters of
the tool we choose, be it Smalltalk, Javascript, Transcript, C or
Photoshop. As my friend, Chris says, 'It's hard to do something hard.'

So, just like someone learning to paint, you have to start at the
beginning. Build a foundation. I think many have given you some
excellent starting points. But, the sooner you understand it takes a
serious commitment, the sooner you'll become productive. Complaining
about how hard it is, doesn't really solve anything-- though I do
agree with your point about the lack of materials for RunRev. That
said, Dan certainly has a good primer you should check out.

Count me as one more vote for Transcript over Smalltalk.

Good luck and I hope you find your way,

Chipp
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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[GregSmith]

Rodney:

You really haven't thoroughly read what I have written.  I have stated that
I am not opposed to learning to program, but, rather, opposed to having to
learn the skills with inadequate foundational learning material.  What is
Transcript really like, language wise?  Other than the simple card analogy,
what and why and how does it define other types of "custom" objects - the
kind I want to make?  When presented with only an API which tells a lot of
"whats" without explaining why and when, or by taking apart a sample bunch
of "code" that is written for purposes other than that which I specifically
need to employ,  I end up spending a lot of time working without
understanding.  This is largely wasteful.  

I'm not asking for a tool that does everything for me.  I'm asking for a
computer language that lets me translate my organized thoughts and
imagination into useful bits that, when assembled together, form working
components of a total working system.  And, it would be helpful if, along
with such a language, came an insightful translation of the equivalent of
words, phrases, sentences, paragraphs and finally, whole stories  - 
especially if the language claims to be English-like.  If English is the
analogy, then the analogy needs to be explained, piece by piece, concept by
concept.  Maybe this is what does not exist.

Greg Smith
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Dependence-on-Programming-Experts-tf1893108.html#a5195060
Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com.

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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[GregSmith]

Dan & Rodney:

O.K., now, just as I was salivating over the potential usefulness and joy of
using Squeak, Rodney comes along and throws water all over me.  Which is it? 
Who is right?  I haven't yet had time to look at the actual Squeak language,
but I did see that incredibly direct and simple "kids" example of using
Squeak over at SqueakLand, or is it SmallTalkLand?  EToys.  And then there
is the integration of all the functionality that the Alice environment
offered, brought over into SqueakLand, or whatever it is called.  Is it all
too good to be really true?

My initial impressions of this environment were that it teaches new users,
even kids, to apprehend, to comprehend the concepts involved in programming,
so that, after those things are grasped, then the cryptic programming
terminology can be introduced which, if those are introduced first, confuses
the heck out of anyone wanting to learn to program.  Even if a programming
language is English-like, what is needed beyond and prior to learning lines
of "code" is really understanding sequences of events and why they need to
be in the order that they need to be in to get the machine to respond
properly.  Right?

Greg Smith
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Dependence-on-Programming-Experts-tf1893108.html#a5194878
Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com.

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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Rodney Somerstein]

Greg Smith wrote:
It is the required use of languages like these that force users like 
us to become "dumbed down". Need we submit to this kind of 
humiliation?


Greg,

It isn't the users that need to be "dumbed down". Rather, it is the 
environment that Jacqueline was referring to. You are essentially 
asking for someone to create a simple (and for want of a better term) 
dumbed down environment that will allow you to create exactly the 
kind of programs that you want. All without having to spend the time 
learning to program. There is no such thing. Unless someone else has 
the exact same vision as you and wants to develop such a tool using a 
programming language, it will never exist.


You aren't looking for a smarter tool. You are asking to avoid 
spending the time learning what is necessary to create the tool you 
want. A tool that is limited to doing what you want is "dumber" than 
a general purpose programming environment such as Revolution. By 
"dumber" I mean that it is more specialized and removes many of the 
features and adds others to make it easier to do just what you want.


Could Revolution be an easier environment to work with? Absolutely. 
It could include better tools for a lot of what it does. Even from 
the developers' standpoint it could be a better language, such as 
implementing true object oriented features. However, it currently 
seems to be, at least for most of the people here, the best general 
purpose environment for creating a wide variety of programs.


What you are asking for doesn't exist at this time. Unless you can 
show the folks at Runtime Revolution that there is a real business 
case for what you are looking for, they probably won't give it to 
you. Their customer base is already too varied and there are too many 
demands on them to add features already for them to produce the 
environment that you want.


-Rodney
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Re: Dependence on Programming Experts

[Dan Shafer]

It should be noted, Greg, that it was I, not Jacque, who made the comments
to which you are responding.

And, FWIW, I don't completely disagree with you that we should be farther
along. I suspect I have even fewer years left to accomplish my big software
goals than  you. (At least I think I'm the oldest active xTalker as far as I
can tell, or certainly in the top 10).

But we can't spend time bemoaning the fact that the tools aren't farther
along if we expect to accomplish great things, either. Squeak and Croquet
are awesome and are much more like what I'd like to use for development but
they have some big disadvantages when it comes to deployment as well.
Everything's a tradeoff.

On 7/5/06, GregSmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Jacqueline:

The real question that needs to be answered is, why now, with the tools of
today, like Squeak or Croquet, would I want to resort to "coding" using
the
grunts and groans of yesteryear?  I'm sorry for those many years you and
others have toiled away trying to master those alien techniques "required"
to make a machine do relatively simple things.  I don't have a lot of
years
left to start from the point people like you started at many years
ago.  We
should have come farther by now and should not be satisfied with anything
other than those tools which save us the most time and energy.  I made no
insult to any person by suggesting that standard "programming" is the
equivalent of communication using a series of grunts and groans.  The fact
that inventors of "modern" computer languages do not see beyond those
methods which have already spent the lives of millions of deskbound slaves
really constitutes the major technological insult.  It is the required use
of languages like these that force users like us to become "dumbed down".
Need we submit to this kind of humiliation?

Greg Smith
--
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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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