Re: Who's using what dbs?

[Ruslan Zasukhin]

On 11/30/09 5:33 AM, "Alex Adams"  wrote:

Hi Alex,

>From all text before, I can say it looks you have two options for now

A) Postgre SQL
B) Valentina DB

Btw, Valentina is able to do:

A) automatic compression of BLOB fields using ZIP, x7 save of space

B) automatic compressions of network protocol. As far as I know, not mySQL,
not Postgre not do that. Of course if file is binary you can self compress
it using ZIP, and then store as is. But not always this is a way.


> That is a very good question.  There are several reasons.  Most of them have
> to do with security.  Some server installations are locked down so tight
> that getting permission to write to a directory on the server from an app
> that does not reside on the server is problematic, even within a server
> farm.  Transferring a file over the internet securely requires a secure
> communication channel.  SSL or VPN, etc.  With a pure database
> implementation, the app just needs the address and logon for the database
> server.  Nothing else.  FrontBase and OpenBase provide proprietary secure
> communications between their drivers and the database itself.  All traffic
> is encrypted.  Easy and safe.  No coding or special setup required.  The
> same setup works for any platform.  It's unbelievable how handy this is.
> 
> There are other reasons, but it is Sunday night here and I think I'm done
> thinking.
> -- 
> Alex Adams

-- 
Best regards,

Ruslan Zasukhin
VP Engineering and New Technology
Paradigma Software, Inc

Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

[I feel the need: the need for speed]


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Re: Who's using what dbs?

[Ruslan Zasukhin]

On 11/30/09 5:10 AM, "Bill Marriott"  wrote:

Hi Alex,
Hi Bill,

>> I have had problems with MySQL and large BLOBs.
> 
> Why use large BLOBs, as opposed to keeping them external to the DB and
> storing merely a reference to same?

Reasons against this can be

A) possibly not stable solution
B) it needs hide files from easy look inside
C) additionally it needs encrypt files.

This was major reasons I have hear from Valentina DB developers.

-- 
Best regards,

Ruslan Zasukhin
VP Engineering and New Technology
Paradigma Software, Inc

Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

[I feel the need: the need for speed]


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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Sarah Reichelt]

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Randall Reetz  wrote:
> Yes, such a debate is natural and unavoidable and healthy (even when it gets 
> nasty).  Has nothing to do with the intent of my original post.  I am simply 
> and obviously questioning the integrity of the original intent of the 
> original post in this thread (coming as it did from a paid employee charged 
> with customer relations no less).  But mostly my comments are general and 
> concern the slow but steady disregard of integrity as a general concept and 
> contract of social behavior.  Which is, by the way, not in any way related to 
> the far more common (and morally repugnant) stand-in... loyalty.  Loyalty is 
> just a cleaned up word that stands for fear of social reprisal.  As example: 
> witness the very personal witch hunt that followed my first post.  Luckily, I 
> am (almost) immune.  Ultimately, it is truth that matters.  We should be big 
> enough to engage in the larger more meaningful debates that go beyond ego and 
> tribalism.  Courage.


Courage is an attribute that is becoming sadly devalued in the modern
world. I would be very upset to see loyalty going the same way, but
happily I believe that you are criticising blind loyalty, not true,
reasoned loyalty, which should never be regarded as repugnant.

Regards,
Sarah
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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Petrides, M.D. Marian]

Am I to interpret that statement as meaning the user comments that  
were posted in response to the blog entry somehow lack integrity,  
simply because Heather brought the original post to our attention? If  
that IS what you are saying, then I take offense at such an  
intimation. Nobody told me what to write, nor could they have. I  
suspect the same is true of the other folks who posted replies to the  
blog


If I am misinterpreting what you said, then I'm sorry.

On Nov 29, 2009, at 9:19 PM, Randall Reetz wrote:

 But mostly my comments are general and concern the slow but steady  
disregard of integrity as a general concept


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Re: Who's using what dbs?

[Alex Adams]

Bill,

That is a very good question.  There are several reasons.  Most of them have
to do with security.  Some server installations are locked down so tight
that getting permission to write to a directory on the server from an app
that does not reside on the server is problematic, even within a server
farm.  Transferring a file over the internet securely requires a secure
communication channel.  SSL or VPN, etc.  With a pure database
implementation, the app just needs the address and logon for the database
server.  Nothing else.  FrontBase and OpenBase provide proprietary secure
communications between their drivers and the database itself.  All traffic
is encrypted.  Easy and safe.  No coding or special setup required.  The
same setup works for any platform.  It's unbelievable how handy this is.

There are other reasons, but it is Sunday night here and I think I'm done
thinking.
-- 
Alex Adams

hawkVision ‹ tools for solving Wicked Problems

(a)2 Technology Partners, Inc.
831-726-8013
a...@a2tecnology.com
www.a2technology.com
www.promisstudio.com
universalconnector.wordpress.com


> From: Bill Marriott 
> Reply-To: How to use Revolution 
> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 22:10:11 -0500
> To: 
> Subject: Re: Who's using what dbs?
> 
> Alex,
> 
>> I have had problems with MySQL and large BLOBs.
> 
> Why use large BLOBs, as opposed to keeping them external to the DB and
> storing merely a reference to same?
> 
> - Bill 
> 
> 
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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Alex Shaw]

Hi

Absolutely.

I'd simply like Rev to become more popular so as to allow RunRev to 
provide a better product.


btw..
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/a9617/ask_does_anybody_use_runtime_revolution_here_how/

regards
alex

Petrides, M.D. Marian wrote:

 Worse still.  Its bad PR.

In your opinion.  In my opinion, I think it's nice to see people who 
actually USE a product come to its defense.



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RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Randall Reetz]

Yes, such a debate is natural and unavoidable and healthy (even when it gets 
nasty).  Has nothing to do with the intent of my original post.  I am simply 
and obviously questioning the integrity of the original intent of the original 
post in this thread (coming as it did from a paid employee charged with 
customer relations no less).  But mostly my comments are general and concern 
the slow but steady disregard of integrity as a general concept and contract of 
social behavior.  Which is, by the way, not in any way related to the far more 
common (and morally repugnant) stand-in... loyalty.  Loyalty is just a cleaned 
up word that stands for fear of social reprisal.  As example: witness the very 
personal witch hunt that followed my first post.  Luckily, I am (almost) 
immune.  Ultimately, it is truth that matters.  We should be big enough to 
engage in the larger more meaningful debates that go beyond ego and tribalism.  
Courage.
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Re: Who's using what dbs?

[Bill Marriott]

Alex,


I have had problems with MySQL and large BLOBs.


Why use large BLOBs, as opposed to keeping them external to the DB and 
storing merely a reference to same?


- Bill 



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Re: Who's using what dbs?

[Mark Wieder]

Alex-

I've pretty much switched everything serious over to postgresql.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net

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Who's using what dbs?

[Alex Adams]

I need to decide on a multi-user database for a family of rev apps to run
against.  Developing in other technologies, I have experience with OpenBase,
FrontBase, MS SQL Server, and MySQL and a little Oracle.  I don¹t want to
use SQL Server for a whole host of reasons.  Oracle is too expensive for
most situations.  I am not aware of a rev driver for OpenBase.  I have had
problems with MySQL and large BLOBs.  That leave FrontBase which I like and
works very well with very large blobs, but is not currently shipping in a 64
bit version.  Is anybody using FrontBase?  I see that there is Valentina.  I
need to store and interact with masses of information, but there are no
relationships setup in the database and there are no joins in the SQL
statements.  Constraints and relationships are handled by the apps.  I store
files in blobs.  Any kind and size of file.

To the apps, the database is a generic place to put information.  This
allows the apps to be database agnostic.  So they can use embedded SQLite
and hosted multiuser databases, just the same.

Any feedback would be appreciated.  Oh yeah.  Cross platform is a must.

Thanks,
-- 
Alex Adams

hawkVision ‹ tools for solving Wicked Problems

(a)2 Technology Partners, Inc.
831-726-8013
a...@a2tecnology.com
www.a2technology.com
www.promisstudio.com
universalconnector.wordpress.com

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Re: Problem Calling Custom Card Props with the Same Name Using Switch

[J. Landman Gay]

Gregory Lypny wrote:


Can we assign the same name to custom props of two different objects,
for example, the modificationDate of Card 1 and the modificationDate of

Card 2?

Yes, I do it all the time.


What is important here is that both cards have a custom prop with the
same name, y, and that y has a different value for each (123 or ABC).
The button to show the values of the props also uses Switch.

on mouseUp
   put the short name of this card
   switch the short name of this card
  case "First Card"
 put the x of this card into x
 put the y of this card into y
 put return & "x" && x && "y" && y after msg
 break
  case "Second Card"
 put the y of this card into y
 put the z of this card into z
 put return & "y" && y && "z" && z after msg
 break
   end switch
end mouseUp



This fails for me too, but only if I keep the property name you 
assigned. If I change the property to "cY" it works as expected. I'm not 
sure why, but I'd guess the engine is using "y" for something. Since I 
always preface my custom properties with "c", I haven't run into this 
before, but I think you should probably bug-report it. It's an odd one.



--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Randall Reetz]

I have used xtalk continuously since a year after hypercard was introduced.  I 
saw nothing in the slashdot blog post that was technically specific to rev 
(excepting of course the wild claims rev has made of its product).  
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Re: Problem Calling Custom Card Props with the Same Name Using Switch

[DunbarX]

Confirmed. And it's odd, because the property value is there, at least 
right at the beginning:

on mouseUp
put ""
put return & "y" && the y of this card   && "z" && the z of this card 
after msg

--both properties are present at this stage

put the short name of this card
switch the short name of this card
   case "First Card"
  put the x of this card into x
  put the y of this card into y
  put return & "x" && x && "y" && y after msg
  break
   case "Second Card"
  put the y of this card into y
  put the z of this card into z
  put return & "y" && y && "z" && z after msg
  break
end switch
end mouseUp

The value is lost along the way, even though stepping through the script 
shows nothing untoward.

Craig Newman
In a message dated 11/29/09 7:57:58 PM, gregory.ly...@videotron.ca writes:


> 
> on mouseUp
>    put the short name of this card
>    switch the short name of this card
>       case "First Card"
>          put the x of this card into x
>          put the y of this card into y
>          put return & "x" && x && "y" && y after msg
>          break
>       case "Second Card"
>          put the y of this card into y
>          put the z of this card into z
>          put return & "y" && y && "z" && z after msg
>          break
>    end switch
> end mouseUp
> 

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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Bill Marriott]

Hi Randall,

My intent in replying is not to say you're "wrong" or even to disagree with 
you... just to point out that Heather's only request was if one felt like 
posting to "keep it positive" -- in the sense of being respectful toward the 
*blog author*, not being positive about Revolution.


Heather wrote:


If you feel the urge to post a
comment, the blogger is inviting debate - just keep it positive...
it's probably best not to wade in guns blazing if you disagree with
his view. I think there is an interesting debate to be had here.


There's surely a diversity of opinions about Rev in the use-list; the posts 
are not 100% rosy. Some current and former customers have mentioned their 
dislikes, skepticism of our bold productivity claim, etc. Heather certainly 
invited that.


I would hope there could be some way of posting notice here of a prominent 
article about us that would be regarded appropriate by everyone. Perhaps it 
was the wording that turned you off? What would you like to see happen in 
the future? Should news of such articles come only from customers?


As a marketing guy (who did *not* request Heather's posting), I will say the 
guerilla effect is welcomed. Between this article and the coverage on 
Slashdot, our site traffic surged. It garnered us many new visitors... more 
in the space of a couple days than we usually get in a month. I certainly 
don't see the articles as fluff. They are controversial; the comments raise 
many points, good and bad, about us. The Slashdot threads being almost 
brutal. Yet we've seen thousands of fresh faces give our products a look-see 
for themselves.


It's easy to forget how small we really are. The vast majority of people 
making software today have never heard of us. We are a tiny fraction of the 
former HyperCard user base. Yet, we are arguably the most successful, 
usable, and capable implementation of that vision around. We see ourselves 
as stewards of that legacy. Our major investments this past year, including 
the Web plugin and free revMedia, are designed not only to deliver more 
value to customers, but also to expose orders of magnitude more people to 
our unique philosophy of software construction.


As fans of xTalk (a heritage we've reinforced and given homage to by naming 
our language "revTalk"), I would wish all of us would have a stake in the 
vitality of our efforts -- getting the word out and reminding people there 
is indeed still such a thing as "programming for the rest of us." I, for 
one, wouldn't be coding at all these days if it weren't for Rev.


- Bill, RunRev marketing guy 



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RE: Problem Calling Custom Card Props with the Same Name Using Switch

[Jim Bufalini]

Use the long name.

Aloha from Hawaii

Jim Bufalini

>   Hello everyone,
> 
>   Can we assign the same name to custom props of two different
> objects, for example, the modificationDate of Card 1 and the
> modificationDate of Card 2?
> 
>   I created a simple stack with two cards named First Card and
> Second Card, a common button that assigns custom props to each and
> another common button to show the values of each card's custom prop.
> The handler in the button that sets the custom props uses Switch and it
> looks like this.
> 
> on mouseUp
>switch the short name of this card
>   case "First Card"
>  set the x of this card to 123
>  set the y of this card to 456
>  break
>   case "Second Card"
>  Set the y of this card to "ABC"
>  set the z of this card to "DEF"
>  break
>end switch
> end mouseUp
> 
> What is important here is that both cards have a custom prop with the
> same name, y, and that y has a different value for each (123 or ABC).
> The button to show the values of the props also uses Switch.
> 
> on mouseUp
>put the short name of this card
>switch the short name of this card
>   case "First Card"
>  put the x of this card into x
>  put the y of this card into y
>  put return & "x" && x && "y" && y after msg
>  break
>   case "Second Card"
>  put the y of this card into y
>  put the z of this card into z
>  put return & "y" && y && "z" && z after msg
>  break
>end switch
> end mouseUp
> 
> If you click this button while on the first card, it correctly puts
> into the message box
> 
>   First Card
>   x 123 y 456
> 
> But if you click it while on the second card, you get
> 
>   Second Card
>   y  z DEF
> 
> where y is empty.  But, comment out the statement involving y in the
> first case of Switch and the second case will work correctly!
> 
>   case "First Card"
>  put the x of this card into x
>  -- put the y of this card into y
>  put return & "x" && x && "y" && y
>  break
> 
> In other words, a statement that retrieves a custom prop in the case of
> Switch that should be by-passed is somehow affecting the retrieval and
> use of a custom prop with the same name in the case of Switch that is
> executed.  I hope someone can tell me that I've made a mistake because,
> otherwise, this could have serious consequences for stacks whose
> objects have custom props that monitor the state of an object and these
> props have the same names, e.g., the modificationDate of Card 1, the
> modificationDate of Card 2, etc.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>   Gregory
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Petrides, M.D. Marian]

Worse still.  Its bad PR.

In your opinion.  In my opinion, I think it's nice to see people who  
actually USE a product come to its defense.



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RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Randall Reetz]

Worse still.  Its bad PR.  Imagine general motors sending out a call to arms 
when ever a comedian or critic posted a joke about the caprice.  I would have 
sent a plane ticket to that blogger. "Please be our guest for a few days and 
meet our staff and get to know our product from the inside out.  You will have 
full candid access to our top developers and customers."

randall  
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RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Randall Reetz]

There is no way I would ever post a request for comments before offering my 
own, and backing them up with why I fell the way I do. Hidden rhetoric is the 
great attractor comes from the anonymity of the web. People have used this 
method throughout time, but familiarity really gets in the way of BS.  A 
restriction absent on the web.  People play the web like a graft of chess and 
lord of the flies.  And curses to anyone who points aghast behind the curtains. 
Send in the dogs. Who are the stake holders?  I wonder.
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Problem Calling Custom Card Props with the Same Name Using Switch

[Gregory Lypny]

Hello everyone,

Can we assign the same name to custom props of two different objects, 
for example, the modificationDate of Card 1 and the modificationDate of Card 2?

I created a simple stack with two cards named First Card and Second 
Card, a common button that assigns custom props to each and another common 
button to show the values of each card's custom prop.  The handler in the 
button that sets the custom props uses Switch and it looks like this.

on mouseUp
   switch the short name of this card
  case "First Card"
 set the x of this card to 123
 set the y of this card to 456
 break
  case "Second Card"
 Set the y of this card to "ABC"
 set the z of this card to "DEF"
 break
   end switch
end mouseUp

What is important here is that both cards have a custom prop with the same 
name, y, and that y has a different value for each (123 or ABC).  The button to 
show the values of the props also uses Switch.

on mouseUp
   put the short name of this card
   switch the short name of this card
  case "First Card"
 put the x of this card into x
 put the y of this card into y
 put return & "x" && x && "y" && y after msg
 break
  case "Second Card"
 put the y of this card into y
 put the z of this card into z
 put return & "y" && y && "z" && z after msg
 break
   end switch
end mouseUp

If you click this button while on the first card, it correctly puts into the 
message box

First Card
x 123 y 456

But if you click it while on the second card, you get

Second Card
y  z DEF

where y is empty.  But, comment out the statement involving y in the first case 
of Switch and the second case will work correctly!

case "First Card"
 put the x of this card into x
 -- put the y of this card into y
 put return & "x" && x && "y" && y
 break

In other words, a statement that retrieves a custom prop in the case of Switch 
that should be by-passed is somehow affecting the retrieval and use of a custom 
prop with the same name in the case of Switch that is executed.  I hope someone 
can tell me that I've made a mistake because, otherwise, this could have 
serious consequences for stacks whose objects have custom props that monitor 
the state of an object and these props have the same names, e.g., the 
modificationDate of Card 1, the modificationDate of Card 2, etc.

Regards,

Gregory






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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Troy Rollins]

On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:23 PM, Randall Reetz wrote:

The slippery (or in this case "invisible") slope of "gorilla" PR is  
powerful especially and only because it sneeks so silently and  
politely under our BS radar.  So called "multi-level" marketing  
proponents have known this forever.  Sell to "friends" and your  
effectiveness skyrockets.  Any activity that acts "friendly" but has  
a commercial motivation fits this category.  We have become so used  
to having it done to us (and doing it ourselves) that we don't still  
have that hair up sensation that used to be our reaction.  But the  
result is a hardening, a loss of the separate sameness that used to  
be reserved only for the category "friends and family".  Now we  
expect to be targets of the misuse of that privilege.  An arms war  
where the winner can only result in the loss of real trust and the  
very real need for a sanctuary away from "pitch" and "spin".  We  
can't have our guard up all of the time.  Too costly.  Neither can  
we let go of the distinction between authenticity and huckstering.   
Subtle but important.  The old warning, "Never cry wolf", never had  
as much relevance. And none of this has anything to do with the  
actual topic of the relevance of the xtalk programming family.  That  
is sad.


In case you're wondering, I'd like to confirm that you *are* now just  
blathering to the group.


But you got this much right pertaining to your own comments...

And none of this has anything to do with the actual topic of the  
relevance of the xtalk programming family.  That is sad.




--
Troy
RPSystems, Ltd.
http://www.rpsystems.net


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Re: Date formats around the world especially Canada

[Bill Vlahos]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

However, I've noticed something disturbing. Windows XP does not have a "Canada" 
setting. It has an English (Canada) and French (Canada). Neither of which 
matches the Mac "Canada" setting. WTF?

What do the Canadian Windows users have for their short date setting? Does it 
match the Mac short date settings below?

Bill Vlahos

On Nov 28, 2009, at 2:54 PM, stephen barncard wrote:

> To ensure compatibility among platforms and countries;
> use the seconds as the stored time data, then convert on the fly at
> showtime. The dates and times should "just work" and formatted as they are
> set by the user. You shouldn't have to do any fancy conversions.
> 
> sqb
> -
> Stephen Barncard
> San Francisco
> http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev
> 
> 
> 2009/11/28 Bill Vlahos 
> 
>> How do folks deal with storing dates when the formats around the world vary
>> so much?
>> 
>> Table below is for different countries according to Mac OS 10.6.2
>> 
>> Australia   05/01/2009  5/01/09
>> Canada  2009-01-05  09-01-05
>> Hong Kong   5 Jan 2009  05/01/2009
>> India   05-Jan-2009 05/01/09
>> Jamaica Jan 5, 2009 1/5/09
>> South Africa05 Jan 2009 2009/01/05
>> United States   Jan 5, 2009 1/5/09
>> 
>> A date string in one country isn't a date in a different country. How do
>> you make them consistent if the user changes the formatting options?
>> 
>> Bill Vlahos
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Bill Vlahos
_
InfoWallet (http://www.infowallet.com) helps me remember the important details 
of my life.

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RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Randall Reetz]

The slippery (or in this case "invisible") slope of "gorilla" PR is powerful 
especially and only because it sneeks so silently and politely under our BS 
radar.  So called "multi-level" marketing proponents have known this forever.  
Sell to "friends" and your effectiveness skyrockets.  Any activity that acts 
"friendly" but has a commercial motivation fits this category.  We have become 
so used to having it done to us (and doing it ourselves) that we don't still 
have that hair up sensation that used to be our reaction.  But the result is a 
hardening, a loss of the separate sameness that used to be reserved only for 
the category "friends and family".  Now we expect to be targets of the misuse 
of that privilege.  An arms war where the winner can only result in the loss of 
real trust and the very real need for a sanctuary away from "pitch" and "spin". 
 We can't have our guard up all of the time.  Too costly.  Neither can we let 
go of the distinction between authenticity and huckstering.  Subtle but 
important.  The old warning, "Never cry wolf", never had as much relevance. And 
none of this has anything to do with the actual topic of the relevance of the 
xtalk programming family.  That is sad.

randall 
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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Michael Kann]

I've sent an apology to Randall for making fun of his post. 






  
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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Bruce Robertson]

On Nov 29, 2009, at 9:29 AM, Marty Knapp wrote:

> Personally, I felt no compulsion to defend Rev because they let us know there 
> was a debate going on at slash dot. Neither was I offended by that. When I'm 
> getting ready to make a purchase (software or otherwise) I very much want to 
> read what real world users are saying about it (as opposed to paid PR) - 
> what's so bad about that? And I will also say that there is much more of a 
> community here than I've experienced in connection with any other software 
> product. In this light, I did not find RunRev's "enlistment" out of line in 
> the least.

For community, try FileMaker.

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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Richmond Mathewson]

IMHO, a good things would be to describe what is the purpose of this slashdot 
thing, no?

The few times I have I have visited the site, the posts seemed as strange to me 
as when my elder son talks biotechnology to me.

But maybe this what make revolution different from what those people (i.e. 
/dot) are interested in?

"The most deaf of men is the one who will not listen"

François
   


Very well said indeed!

Many years ago I went to Durham (England) to study Philosophy; after we 
had been studying what
dead and half-dead philosophers had been writing and saying for about 2 
years Mary Midgley came

down from Newcastle, walked straight into one of our lectures and said:

"Why don't you just DO philosophy instead of all this dull stuff?"

She has been one of my heros ever since:

http://andregarzia.on-rev.com/richmond/hmc.html
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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[François Chaplais]

Le 29 nov. 2009 à 21:20, Lynn Fredricks a écrit :

>> The idea that the customer services manager of a company 
>> would enlist that company's own customers in a public debate 
>> over the merits of that company's product and the rather easy 
>> to debase claims it made of its product... Well it just feels 
>> a little icky.
> 
> Randall,
> 
> I can appreciate that you spend a significant amount of time to evaluate a
> product, but a lot of folks will make snap judgements and never give
> something a try because some blogger puts a negative spin on it - especially
> true in development tools (Ive sold a really broad range of software, from
> 3D modeling to games to business software) because of the emotional
> investment many make into such complex tools.
> 
> There are a lot of folks here who have been with Revolution for years, and
> they are the best advocates. My half educated guess is that those same folks
> use more than one tool (more so than developers who typically code in C++),
> and are suited to weigh the value of Rev vs other tools.
> 
> The dynamics of selling a development tool are quite different than other
> software products and user feedback, case studies and informed comment count
> so much more for the lack of coverage in conventional technology news
> venues. I think its entirely reasonable for company reps to ask for comment
> - the popularity and exposure of that product brings it more success, which
> means better support.

IMHO, a good things would be to describe what is the purpose of this slashdot 
thing, no?

The few times I have I have visited the site, the posts seemed as strange to me 
as when my elder son talks biotechnology to me.

But maybe this what make revolution different from what those people (i.e. 
/dot) are interested in?

"The most deaf of men is the one who will not listen"

François
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RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Lynn Fredricks]

> The idea that the customer services manager of a company 
> would enlist that company's own customers in a public debate 
> over the merits of that company's product and the rather easy 
> to debase claims it made of its product... Well it just feels 
> a little icky.

Randall,

I can appreciate that you spend a significant amount of time to evaluate a
product, but a lot of folks will make snap judgements and never give
something a try because some blogger puts a negative spin on it - especially
true in development tools (Ive sold a really broad range of software, from
3D modeling to games to business software) because of the emotional
investment many make into such complex tools.

There are a lot of folks here who have been with Revolution for years, and
they are the best advocates. My half educated guess is that those same folks
use more than one tool (more so than developers who typically code in C++),
and are suited to weigh the value of Rev vs other tools.

The dynamics of selling a development tool are quite different than other
software products and user feedback, case studies and informed comment count
so much more for the lack of coverage in conventional technology news
venues. I think its entirely reasonable for company reps to ask for comment
- the popularity and exposure of that product brings it more success, which
means better support.

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Paradigma Software
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server 

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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Michael Kann]

Here's a good interview that discusses some of the same issues as the slashdot 
thread. (The only difference being that she knows what she's talking about.)

http://zathras.de/angelweb/xtalkinterview-jeanne-a-e-devoto.htm

If anyone at slashdot was really interested in runrev they would have crashed 
the runrev server -- the verb is "slashdotting." Not being malicious -- it's 
just that they can generate that much traffic.




  
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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Mark Swindell]

On Nov 29, 2009, at 8:40 AM, Randall Reetz wrote:

> The idea that the customer services manager of a company would enlist that 
> company's own customers in a public debate over the merits of that company's 
> product and the rather easy to debase claims it made of its product... Well 
> it just feels a little icky.  

I felt informed of a discussion, not enlisted.  

I felt invited to participate in a discussion if I wanted, not coerced.  

I got the message on a list-serve with scores of other messages per day, not in 
a private email. 

I actually feel better informed than before, as I see what Rev is up against in 
the "serious" programming marketplace.

I just can't muster that "icky" feeling over this.  

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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Richmond Mathewson]

On 11/29/09 6:52 PM, Jim Bufalini wrote:

Randall Reetz wrote

   

The idea that the customer services manager of a company would enlist
that company's own customers in a public debate over the merits of that
company's product and the rather easy to debase claims it made of its
product... Well it just feels a little icky.  I am a huge fan of xtalk
and any bridge that can be built between intent and the horrors of
programming.  That is a professional opinion, a philosophy.  When I
purchase a product, that decision, and the money that is exchanged is
my argument for that product, and should be sufficient to pay for any
PR the company uses to attract other customers. And to ask for help
without explaining how that decision to ask for customer help was made
(and why) or at a minimum also venturing your own attempt at the same
debate seems a tad unfair.  Choosing a tool, especially in programming
where endless hours are eaten up thereafter, well that is argument in
itself.  Use it!  Tell the world how many rev users there are.  If
someone, unabated, wants to defend your products in public debate, so
be it.  But to ask this of your own customers?  If the product were
free, and if you were an unpaid volunteer, well maybe.
 

Break your thoughts into paragraphs please ;-) My eyes glosses over.

   


Randall's long 'things' always do that; paragraphed or not.

I'm not moaning: I paid half-dibs to go to a programming conference in 
Scotland
and received Studio 4 for Mac, Win and Linux: which, if you count on 
your toes as

well as your fingers means a net profit to me.

And, as the folks at RunRev well know; there's no shutting up Mr Mathewson -
one way or another I will support them; both because of recent events and
because they have put up with "one awkward customer" with great good humour
for many years.

Randall out to calm down as all his messages seem to do is make 
everybody else

cheesed-off.
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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Petrides, M.D. Marian]

Frankly, I welcomed the opportunity to put in a good word for Rev.   
Every little bit of positive publicity makes it more likely that Rev  
will "live long and prosper"--and that's good news for all of us who  
use Rev professionally and as hobbyists.



On Nov 29, 2009, at 10:40 AM, Randall Reetz wrote:

The idea that the customer services manager of a company would  
enlist that company's own customers in a public debate over the  
merits of that company's product and the rather easy to debase  
claims it made of its product... Well it just feels a little icky.   
I am a huge fan of xtalk and any bridge that can be built between  
intent and the horrors of programming.  That is a professional  
opinion, a philosophy.  When I purchase a product, that decision,  
and the money that is exchanged is my argument for that product, and  
should be sufficient to pay for any PR the company uses to attract  
other customers. And to ask for help without explaining how that  
decision to ask for customer help was made (and why) or at a minimum  
also venturing your own attempt at the same debate seems a tad  
unfair.  Choosing a tool, especially in programming where endless  
hours are eaten up thereafter, well that is argument in itself.  Use  
it!  Tell the world how many rev users there are.  If someone,  
unabated, wants to defend your products in public debate, so be it.   
But to ask this of your own customers?  If the product were free,  
and if you were an unpaid volunteer, well maybe.


randall
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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Marty Knapp]

Personally, I felt no compulsion to defend Rev because they let us know 
there was a debate going on at slash dot. Neither was I offended by 
that. When I'm getting ready to make a purchase (software or otherwise) 
I very much want to read what real world users are saying about it (as 
opposed to paid PR) - what's so bad about that? And I will also say that 
there is much more of a community here than I've experienced in 
connection with any other software product. In this light, I did not 
find RunRev's "enlistment" out of line in the least.


Marty Knapp

The idea that the customer services manager of a company would enlist that 
company's own customers in a public debate over the merits of that company's 
product and the rather easy to debase claims it made of its product... Well it 
just feels a little icky.  I am a huge fan of xtalk and any bridge that can be 
built between intent and the horrors of programming.  That is a professional 
opinion, a philosophy.  When I purchase a product, that decision, and the money 
that is exchanged is my argument for that product, and should be sufficient to 
pay for any PR the company uses to attract other customers. And to ask for help 
without explaining how that decision to ask for customer help was made (and 
why) or at a minimum also venturing your own attempt at the same debate seems a 
tad unfair.  Choosing a tool, especially in programming where endless hours are 
eaten up thereafter, well that is argument in itself.  Use it!  Tell the world 
how many rev users there are.  If someone, unabated, wants to defend your 
products in public debate, so be it.  But to ask this of your own customers?  
If the product were free, and if you were an unpaid volunteer, well maybe.

randall


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Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[stephen barncard]

Jim, you are  diplomatic!


-
Stephen Barncard
San Francisco
http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev


2009/11/29 Jim Bufalini 

>
> Randall Reetz wrote
>
> > The idea that the customer services manager of a company would enlist
> > that company's own customers in a public debate over the merits of that
> > company's product and the rather easy to debase claims it made of its
> > product... Well it just feels a little icky.  I am a huge fan of xtalk
> > and any bridge that can be built between intent and the horrors of
> > programming.  That is a professional opinion, a philosophy.  When I
> > purchase a product, that decision, and the money that is exchanged is
> > my argument for that product, and should be sufficient to pay for any
> > PR the company uses to attract other customers. And to ask for help
> > without explaining how that decision to ask for customer help was made
> > (and why) or at a minimum also venturing your own attempt at the same
> > debate seems a tad unfair.  Choosing a tool, especially in programming
> > where endless hours are eaten up thereafter, well that is argument in
> > itself.  Use it!  Tell the world how many rev users there are.  If
> > someone, unabated, wants to defend your products in public debate, so
> > be it.  But to ask this of your own customers?  If the product were
> > free, and if you were an unpaid volunteer, well maybe.
>
> Break your thoughts into paragraphs please ;-) My eyes glosses over.
>
> Aloha from Hawaii,
>
> Jim Bufalini
>
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RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Jim Bufalini]

Randall Reetz wrote

> The idea that the customer services manager of a company would enlist
> that company's own customers in a public debate over the merits of that
> company's product and the rather easy to debase claims it made of its
> product... Well it just feels a little icky.  I am a huge fan of xtalk
> and any bridge that can be built between intent and the horrors of
> programming.  That is a professional opinion, a philosophy.  When I
> purchase a product, that decision, and the money that is exchanged is
> my argument for that product, and should be sufficient to pay for any
> PR the company uses to attract other customers. And to ask for help
> without explaining how that decision to ask for customer help was made
> (and why) or at a minimum also venturing your own attempt at the same
> debate seems a tad unfair.  Choosing a tool, especially in programming
> where endless hours are eaten up thereafter, well that is argument in
> itself.  Use it!  Tell the world how many rev users there are.  If
> someone, unabated, wants to defend your products in public debate, so
> be it.  But to ask this of your own customers?  If the product were
> free, and if you were an unpaid volunteer, well maybe.

Break your thoughts into paragraphs please ;-) My eyes glosses over. 

Aloha from Hawaii,

Jim Bufalini

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RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?

[Randall Reetz]

The idea that the customer services manager of a company would enlist that 
company's own customers in a public debate over the merits of that company's 
product and the rather easy to debase claims it made of its product... Well it 
just feels a little icky.  I am a huge fan of xtalk and any bridge that can be 
built between intent and the horrors of programming.  That is a professional 
opinion, a philosophy.  When I purchase a product, that decision, and the money 
that is exchanged is my argument for that product, and should be sufficient to 
pay for any PR the company uses to attract other customers. And to ask for help 
without explaining how that decision to ask for customer help was made (and 
why) or at a minimum also venturing your own attempt at the same debate seems a 
tad unfair.  Choosing a tool, especially in programming where endless hours are 
eaten up thereafter, well that is argument in itself.  Use it!  Tell the world 
how many rev users there are.  If someone, unabated, wants to defend your 
products in public debate, so be it.  But to ask this of your own customers?  
If the product were free, and if you were an unpaid volunteer, well maybe.

randall
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Re: [ANN] revIgniter

[stephen barncard]

Didn't Paul Lutus write *Pie Writer*?   (I've been working with old Apple ][
stuff recently..just converted 500 Apple floppies to files in a mac folder)

Ha ! I have a copy of GraFORTH AND an Apple ][ right here.

By the way, the emulators have gotten REALLY good now...

VIRTUAL ][ 


2009/11/29 Mark Wieder 

>
> Glad to see that Paul Lutus is still maintaining arachnophilia. He's
> one of the true iconoclasts of the computer revolution. My copy of
> AppleWriter is long gone now, but I still can't bring myself to get
> rid of my copy of GraFORTH, even though I no longer have an Apple II
> to run it on.
>
> --
> -Mark Wieder
>  mwie...@ahsoftware.net
>
>
>


-
Stephen Barncard
San Francisco
http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev
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Re: [ANN] revIgniter

[Mark Wieder]

Jim-

Saturday, November 28, 2009, 3:32:09 PM, you wrote:

> For what it's worth, there is a free, cross-platform, webpage
> development/general programming editor/tool that is written in Java called
> arachnophilia (how he came up with this name I have no idea), that I have
> used for many years for things like CSS, PHP, JavaScript and sometimes HTML.
> It's not WYSIWYG but it formats and colors code. It has FTP and page preview
> in browser, etc. You can get it for free from:

> http://vps.arachnoid.com/arachnophilia/index.php

Glad to see that Paul Lutus is still maintaining arachnophilia. He's
one of the true iconoclasts of the computer revolution. My copy of
AppleWriter is long gone now, but I still can't bring myself to get
rid of my copy of GraFORTH, even though I no longer have an Apple II
to run it on.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net

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Re: [ANN] revIgniter

[Andre Garzia]

Hi All,

Again revIgnite is wonderful! Thanks again Ralf, it is the framework I
always wanted to write but never quite did and it has some wonderful stuff I
never thought of, I am very happy to use it.

Back on the topic of tools:

EDITORS
* TextMate - nothing beats textmate, nothing! TextMate is wonderful. <
http://macromates.com >
* Flux 2 - Flux is a very good WYSIWYG editor from the escapers. Flux 1 was
buggy, version 2 is quite an achievement. < http://theescapers.com >
* tText - Jerrys latest creation has a lot of potential, with its flexible
plugin architecture you can adapt it to your specific project. <
http://reveditor.com >

FTP/SFTP
* Interarchy - the best FTP/SFTP program for the mac, it has all features
and work great. Been using this for many years < http://nolobe.com >
* ExpanDrive - powered by macfuse framework, this basically adds FTP/SFTP/S3
file systems to the finder, it allows you to mount remote volumes as they
were local and work on the files as they were local, I am switching to this
from interarchy for my SFTP needs. It just works < http://expandrive.com >

DOCUMENTATION
* O'Reilly Safary Bookshelf - It allows you to put O'Reilly (and others)
books in your virtual bookshelf. You can then read the books, search,
download chapters. Worth every penny < http://safari.oreilly.com >

:D



On Sat, Nov 28, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Jim Bufalini  wrote:

> Ralf Bitter wrote:
>
> > I don't know any WYSIWYG editor, which can be used to
> > build revTalk web pages. So, the workflow is a bit tedious.
> > Something like Coda for irev would be nice.
> > For HTML I use a poor man's TextMate called Smultron,
> > and for CSS I use CSSEdit and the invaluable YAML framework.
>
> For what it's worth, there is a free, cross-platform, webpage
> development/general programming editor/tool that is written in Java called
> arachnophilia (how he came up with this name I have no idea), that I have
> used for many years for things like CSS, PHP, JavaScript and sometimes
> HTML.
> It's not WYSIWYG but it formats and colors code. It has FTP and page
> preview
> in browser, etc. You can get it for free from:
>
> http://vps.arachnoid.com/arachnophilia/index.php
>
> He seems to imply in his advanced sections that it is extensible, but not
> understanding enough about Java macros, I'm not sure. Maybe one of the Java
> gurus on this list can take a look and see if it can be extended to irev
> files?
>
> Aloha from Hawaii,
>
> Jim Bufalini
>
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-- 
http://www.andregarzia.com All We Do Is Code.
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Re: preferences display

[Jacques Hausser]

Sorry, I think I know what occurred: When working on my present stack, I opened 
an old stack by double clicking, and it opened in an old version of RunRev... 
so I had for a while two versions open together, and it was some mixture (e.g. 
two different reset buttons in every pane of the preferences, what should be 
the case only for object size) which remained in the last version after that.
So setting the default version when you have several ones seems dangerous ! I 
get rid of all the former versions (I put them on a DVD for security's sake) 
and reloaded Rev 4.0.0. And the preferences are OK...

Thanks to Richmond, André and René

Jacques

**
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Department of Ecology and Evolution
Biophore / Sorge
University of Lausanne
CH 1015 Lausanne
please use my private address:
6 route de Burtigny
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Re: preferences display

[Jacques Hausser]

Thanks, Richmond

That narrows the problem, at least. By the way, to narrow further, mine is 
RevEnterprise. (And sorry for the ID ! I'm lost in these english acronyms, but 
your interpretation was correct...)

Jacques

Le 29 nov. 2009 à 12:05, Richmond Mathewson a écrit :

> On 11/29/09 12:47 PM, Jacques Hausser wrote:
>> Hello everybody
>> 
>> I opened the preferences in the ID (what's very rare) and discovered that 
>> some buttons are badly sized or placed,overlapping text and so on. Doesn't 
>> look very professional.
>> Has somebody else observed such things, or it's only my computer ? (Mac OS 
>> 10.6.2, Rev 4.0.0)
>> 
>> Jacques
>> 
>> 
>>   
> 
> If, by ID preferences, you mean the basic RunRev preferences (under 
> 'Revolution' on the Mac menubar)
> then I can tell you that, with RevStudio 4:
> 
> On a G4 Mac 10.5.8 there are no problems,
> 
> On a Pentium 4, Ubuntu 8.04.3 (Preferences under 'Edit' on menubar) there are 
> no problems,
> 
> On a Pentium 3, Windows XP (Preferences under 'Edit' on menubar) there are no 
> problems.
> 
> So, it could be your computer, or it could be the Mac Intel build.
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**
Prof. Jacques Hausser
Department of Ecology and Evolution
Biophore / Sorge
University of Lausanne
CH 1015 Lausanne
please use my private address:
6 route de Burtigny
CH-1269 Bassins
tel/fax:++ 41 22 366 19 40
mobile: ++ 41 79 757 05 24
E-Mail: jacques.haus...@unil.ch
***

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Re: preferences display

[René Micout]

Hello,
Mac OS 10.6.2, Rev 4.0.0, iMac 27" i7 :
Alignment defaults... yes
but no overlapping...
Bon dimanche et bon souvenir de Paris
René

Le 29 nov. 2009 à 11:47, Jacques Hausser a écrit :

> Hello everybody
> 
> I opened the preferences in the ID (what's very rare) and discovered that 
> some buttons are badly sized or placed,overlapping text and so on. Doesn't 
> look very professional.
> Has somebody else observed such things, or it's only my computer ? (Mac OS 
> 10.6.2, Rev 4.0.0)
> 
> Jacques
> 
> 
> 
> **
> Prof. Jacques Hausser
> Department of Ecology and Evolution
> Biophore / Sorge
> University of Lausanne
> CH 1015 Lausanne
> please use my private address:
> 6 route de Burtigny
> CH-1269 Bassins
> tel/fax:  ++ 41 22 366 19 40
> mobile:   ++ 41 79 757 05 24
> E-Mail:   jacques.haus...@unil.ch
> ***
> 
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Re: preferences display

[Andre.Bisseret]

Bonjour,
I don"t get such problems here with Rev 4.0.0, but stil on Mac OS  
10.5.8.


Best regards from Grenoble

André
Le 29 nov. 09 à 11:47, Jacques Hausser a écrit :


Hello everybody

I opened the preferences in the ID (what's very rare) and discovered  
that some buttons are badly sized or placed,overlapping text and so  
on. Doesn't look very professional.
Has somebody else observed such things, or it's only my computer ?  
(Mac OS 10.6.2, Rev 4.0.0)


Jacques



**
Prof. Jacques Hausser
Department of Ecology and Evolution
Biophore / Sorge
University of Lausanne
CH 1015 Lausanne
please use my private address:
6 route de Burtigny
CH-1269 Bassins
tel/fax:++ 41 22 366 19 40
mobile: ++ 41 79 757 05 24
E-Mail: jacques.haus...@unil.ch
***

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Re: preferences display

[Richmond Mathewson]

On 11/29/09 12:47 PM, Jacques Hausser wrote:

Hello everybody

I opened the preferences in the ID (what's very rare) and discovered that some 
buttons are badly sized or placed,overlapping text and so on. Doesn't look very 
professional.
Has somebody else observed such things, or it's only my computer ? (Mac OS 
10.6.2, Rev 4.0.0)

Jacques


   


If, by ID preferences, you mean the basic RunRev preferences (under 
'Revolution' on the Mac menubar)

then I can tell you that, with RevStudio 4:

On a G4 Mac 10.5.8 there are no problems,

On a Pentium 4, Ubuntu 8.04.3 (Preferences under 'Edit' on menubar) 
there are no problems,


On a Pentium 3, Windows XP (Preferences under 'Edit' on menubar) there 
are no problems.


So, it could be your computer, or it could be the Mac Intel build.
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preferences display

[Jacques Hausser]

Hello everybody

I opened the preferences in the ID (what's very rare) and discovered that some 
buttons are badly sized or placed,overlapping text and so on. Doesn't look very 
professional.
Has somebody else observed such things, or it's only my computer ? (Mac OS 
10.6.2, Rev 4.0.0)

Jacques



**
Prof. Jacques Hausser
Department of Ecology and Evolution
Biophore / Sorge
University of Lausanne
CH 1015 Lausanne
please use my private address:
6 route de Burtigny
CH-1269 Bassins
tel/fax:++ 41 22 366 19 40
mobile: ++ 41 79 757 05 24
E-Mail: jacques.haus...@unil.ch
***

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Re: Printing rubbish

[Jan Schenkel]

Hi Richmond,

Printing in rev can be a bit confusing at times, but I have some experience 
with it so I can help you find the errors in your ways ;-)

Let's start at the top. In order to print a card to a PDF file, you have to do 
a little more than what you scripted:
##
on mouseUp
   local tFilePath
   put specialFolderPath("desktop") & "/test.pdf" into tFilePath
   set the printerOutput to ("file:" & tFilePath)
   set the printMargins to 0,0,0,0
   print this card
   launch document tFilePath
end mouseUp
##
I decided to place the file on the desktop and launch it right after printing. 
The key difference was setting the printMargins. If your 'print' command 
doesn't specify an 'into' rectangle, the engine assumes you're printing from 
the top left of the printable part of the paper.

Important to know, so you get your expectations right:
- graphic objects are printed to 'unlimited' precision, zooming in shouldn't 
result in jagged lines
- the text in objects (fields, button labels, etc.) are also printed to 
'unlimited' precision
- everything else (images, players and other controls) gets printed at 'screen' 
precision and will show jaggies as you zoom in

The reason is simple: rev asks the operating system to draw a button, but gets 
this back as a bitmap; it then prints the label of the button on top of it; 
these are two distinct graphic environments, and while you don't see it on 
screen, you'll see the difference upon printing time.

Anyway, on to the problem of printing a field. The simplest method is indeed to 
use the revPrintField command, so you ware almost there:
##
on mouseUp
   local tFilePath
   put specialFolderPath("desktop") & "/test2.pdf" into tFilePath
   set the printerOutput to ("file:" & tFilePath)
   revShowPrintDialog false, false
   revPrintField the long id of field "MyStyledTextField"
   launch document tFilePath
end mouseUp
##
Calling the 'revShowPrintDialog' command allows you to control which dialogs 
are shown (page setup, print) so by passing false twice, we bypass the dialog 
box completely. And the PDF output looked crispy on my Mac.

On Windows, you can use the printerOutput to create 'XPS' files (MS alternative 
to PDF), and on Linux, you can use it to create 'PS' files (PostScript, of 
course)

HTH,

Jan Schenkel
=
Quartam Reports & PDF Library for Revolution


=
"As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time."  (La 
Rochefoucauld)


--- On Sat, 11/28/09, Richmond Mathewson  wrote:

> From: Richmond Mathewson 
> Subject: Printing rubbish
> To: "How to use Revolution" 
> Date: Saturday, November 28, 2009, 8:18 AM
> I have a card containing a field that
> is 875 wide (on a Mac),
> so when I do this:
> 
> on mouseUp
>    set the printerOutput to "file:
> Rubbish.pdf"
>    print this card
> end mouseUp
> 
> I get rubbish insofar as i get the left half of
> the card in a PDF file; wonder what happened to the
> right half?
> 
> --
> 
> Of course this:
> 
> on mouseUp
>    set the printerOutput to "file:
> RubbishToo.pdf"
>    print fld "fTEXT"
> end mouseUp
> 
> just throws a "bluey"!
> 
> A bit of a shame, really, as printing from text-fields
> would
> be ever-so nifty.
> 
> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
> 
> I wonder whether this:
> 
> "Output direct to PDF
> Cards or portions of cards can now be output direct to pdf
> format files."
> 
> means that one can do this in Supercard 
> 
> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
> 
> This:
> 
> on mouseUp
>    set the printerOutput to "file:
> RubbishToo.pdf"
>    print this card from 204,159 to 764,561
> end mouseUp
> 
> proved interesting as it printed out most of the field
> (204,159 being the field's top-left
> and 764,561 being its bottom-right), but chopped off its
> right side (presumably the
> field is too wide).
> 
> ---
> 
> Of course, printing a scrolling field to PDF would have
> been a
> non-starter as what is REALLY being printed is a SNAPSHOT
> of all
> or part of the card.
> 
> ---
> 
> Tried this:
> 
> on mouseUp
>    set the printerOutput to "file:
> RubbishToo.pdf"
>    revPrintField ("field" &&
> "fTEXT")
> end mouseUp
> 
> and got a printer dialogue; and, interestingly enough, not
> the
> standard Mac OS X one where there is the option to output
> to PDF.
> 
> -
> 
> So, for now (at least) outputting a whole field to PDF on
> Mac looks
> fairly hopeless.
> 



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Re: Date formats around the world

[Sarah Reichelt]

On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Bill Vlahos  wrote:
> How do folks deal with storing dates when the formats around the world vary 
> so much?
>
> Table below is for different countries according to Mac OS 10.6.2
>
> Australia       05/01/2009      5/01/09
> Canada  2009-01-05      09-01-05
> Hong Kong       5 Jan 2009      05/01/2009
> India   05-Jan-2009     05/01/09
> Jamaica Jan 5, 2009     1/5/09
> South Africa    05 Jan 2009     2009/01/05
> United States   Jan 5, 2009     1/5/09
>
> A date string in one country isn't a date in a different country. How do you 
> make them consistent if the user changes the formatting options?


If you just need the date and not the time, then storing "the English
date" will give you the date in a consistent format. Then you can
convert this to "system date" before displaying.
BUT if you need time as well, then you run into problems,
especially if these date-times need to be transferred across time
zones.

You can use the seconds, but they refer to a particular second in time
and the date & time they convert back to depend on the time zone set
in the computer doing the conversion.
To test this, get the seconds, store that number somewhere and convert
it to date and time.
Now change the time zone of your computer and do the conversion again
from the same number of seconds. You will get not get the same time
returned, you will get the time it was in the second time zone when
you got the seconds.
This makes using "the seconds" useless if you need to know when things
happened in a different time zone. I ran into this problem when
running kiosks in numerous time zones. If there was a problem, I
needed to know the time at the remote machine, not the time it was at
my machine when the problem occurred.

Using "the internet date" helps a bit because you then get the time
zone of the original event. You can convert this to your time zone or
use it to read the time in the original time zone. But the internet
date does not support daylight savings time (unless it has improved
since I last tested).

My solution in the end was to convert all date & times to my own time
stamp format: MMDDHHMMSS
This doesn't store any time zone data, but it gives me complete
control over the date & time stored. To manipulate this data, I use
"seconds" as an intermediate format, which works fine on a single
computer - it just gives problems when transferring between computers
in different zones.

BTW, I have been campaigning for a new time format called "the
universal seconds" where the same number would always translate to the
same date & time regardless of time zone.
If you feel this would be useful, please vote for


Cheers,
Sarah
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