Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
I just came across this: http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,100567,10014516o-2000458459b,00.htm Thought it would interest you guys! If you feel the urge to post a comment, the blogger is inviting debate - just keep it positive... it's probably best not to wade in guns blazing if you disagree with his view. I think there is an interesting debate to be had here. Nice to see Rev starting to attract widespread media interest :) Regards, Heather Heather Nagey Customer Services Manager http://www.runrev.com/ RunRev - Software construction for everyone follow me on twitter http://www.twitter.com/lainopik ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Heather, I hope the following is tame enough for you, although I suspect it may not be. :-))) Marian I'm a full-time physician educator with a medical school faculty appointment and no formal training in programming. I've been using Revolution since it first came out and have been able to write several fairly complex interactive applications that are published by the leading press in my field using Revolution. Frankly, without Revolution I would not have had the time to even THINK of undertaking such an endeavor. To my mind, what Revolution offers to people like me is the ability to create a customized application that would take me forever to explain to a professional programmer who knows nothing about Transfusion Medicine and would likely cost a fortune to implement. All it took was some time learning basic syntax and the ability to set down the logic I created in a series of IF-THEN or CASE algorithms--not exactly rocket science. So, before you belittle Revolution for the statements you quoted, namely: >>“Empowers people who would never have attempted programming to create >>successful applications,” and that this, ”Enables software construction >>for everyone.” please consider that even non-professional programmers are capable of logical thinking and that some of us just need to get the job done in way that works properly and preferable that doesn't interfere with our day jobs. I could not have written the two apps I have published thusfar were it not for Revolution, so Revolution DID empower me to take on an unfamiliar task and construct software that "just works." I'm sure my code is not nearly as elegant as that I've seen other folks do with Revolution, but it did the trick for me and for that I am forever grateful. Marian Petrides, MD Associate Professor of Clinical Pathology University of Missouri School of Medicine Columbia, MO, USA On Nov 25, 2009, at 11:51 AM, Heather Nagey wrote: > I just came across this: > > http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,100567,10014516o-2000458459b,00.htm > > Thought it would interest you guys! If you feel the urge to post a comment, > the blogger is inviting debate - just keep it positive... it's probably best > not to wade in guns blazing if you disagree with his view. I think there is > an interesting debate to be had here. > > Nice to see Rev starting to attract widespread media interest :) > > Regards, > > Heather > > Heather Nagey > Customer Services Manager > http://www.runrev.com/ > RunRev - Software construction for everyone > follow me on twitter > http://www.twitter.com/lainopik > > ___ > use-revolution mailing list > use-revolution@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
The idea that the customer services manager of a company would enlist that company's own customers in a public debate over the merits of that company's product and the rather easy to debase claims it made of its product... Well it just feels a little icky. I am a huge fan of xtalk and any bridge that can be built between intent and the horrors of programming. That is a professional opinion, a philosophy. When I purchase a product, that decision, and the money that is exchanged is my argument for that product, and should be sufficient to pay for any PR the company uses to attract other customers. And to ask for help without explaining how that decision to ask for customer help was made (and why) or at a minimum also venturing your own attempt at the same debate seems a tad unfair. Choosing a tool, especially in programming where endless hours are eaten up thereafter, well that is argument in itself. Use it! Tell the world how many rev users there are. If someone, unabated, wants to defend your products in public debate, so be it. But to ask this of your own customers? If the product were free, and if you were an unpaid volunteer, well maybe. randall ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Randall Reetz wrote > The idea that the customer services manager of a company would enlist > that company's own customers in a public debate over the merits of that > company's product and the rather easy to debase claims it made of its > product... Well it just feels a little icky. I am a huge fan of xtalk > and any bridge that can be built between intent and the horrors of > programming. That is a professional opinion, a philosophy. When I > purchase a product, that decision, and the money that is exchanged is > my argument for that product, and should be sufficient to pay for any > PR the company uses to attract other customers. And to ask for help > without explaining how that decision to ask for customer help was made > (and why) or at a minimum also venturing your own attempt at the same > debate seems a tad unfair. Choosing a tool, especially in programming > where endless hours are eaten up thereafter, well that is argument in > itself. Use it! Tell the world how many rev users there are. If > someone, unabated, wants to defend your products in public debate, so > be it. But to ask this of your own customers? If the product were > free, and if you were an unpaid volunteer, well maybe. Break your thoughts into paragraphs please ;-) My eyes glosses over. Aloha from Hawaii, Jim Bufalini ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Jim, you are diplomatic! - Stephen Barncard San Francisco http://houseofcubes.com/disco.irev 2009/11/29 Jim Bufalini > > Randall Reetz wrote > > > The idea that the customer services manager of a company would enlist > > that company's own customers in a public debate over the merits of that > > company's product and the rather easy to debase claims it made of its > > product... Well it just feels a little icky. I am a huge fan of xtalk > > and any bridge that can be built between intent and the horrors of > > programming. That is a professional opinion, a philosophy. When I > > purchase a product, that decision, and the money that is exchanged is > > my argument for that product, and should be sufficient to pay for any > > PR the company uses to attract other customers. And to ask for help > > without explaining how that decision to ask for customer help was made > > (and why) or at a minimum also venturing your own attempt at the same > > debate seems a tad unfair. Choosing a tool, especially in programming > > where endless hours are eaten up thereafter, well that is argument in > > itself. Use it! Tell the world how many rev users there are. If > > someone, unabated, wants to defend your products in public debate, so > > be it. But to ask this of your own customers? If the product were > > free, and if you were an unpaid volunteer, well maybe. > > Break your thoughts into paragraphs please ;-) My eyes glosses over. > > Aloha from Hawaii, > > Jim Bufalini > > ___ > use-revolution mailing list > use-revolution@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution > ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Personally, I felt no compulsion to defend Rev because they let us know there was a debate going on at slash dot. Neither was I offended by that. When I'm getting ready to make a purchase (software or otherwise) I very much want to read what real world users are saying about it (as opposed to paid PR) - what's so bad about that? And I will also say that there is much more of a community here than I've experienced in connection with any other software product. In this light, I did not find RunRev's "enlistment" out of line in the least. Marty Knapp The idea that the customer services manager of a company would enlist that company's own customers in a public debate over the merits of that company's product and the rather easy to debase claims it made of its product... Well it just feels a little icky. I am a huge fan of xtalk and any bridge that can be built between intent and the horrors of programming. That is a professional opinion, a philosophy. When I purchase a product, that decision, and the money that is exchanged is my argument for that product, and should be sufficient to pay for any PR the company uses to attract other customers. And to ask for help without explaining how that decision to ask for customer help was made (and why) or at a minimum also venturing your own attempt at the same debate seems a tad unfair. Choosing a tool, especially in programming where endless hours are eaten up thereafter, well that is argument in itself. Use it! Tell the world how many rev users there are. If someone, unabated, wants to defend your products in public debate, so be it. But to ask this of your own customers? If the product were free, and if you were an unpaid volunteer, well maybe. randall ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Frankly, I welcomed the opportunity to put in a good word for Rev. Every little bit of positive publicity makes it more likely that Rev will "live long and prosper"--and that's good news for all of us who use Rev professionally and as hobbyists. On Nov 29, 2009, at 10:40 AM, Randall Reetz wrote: The idea that the customer services manager of a company would enlist that company's own customers in a public debate over the merits of that company's product and the rather easy to debase claims it made of its product... Well it just feels a little icky. I am a huge fan of xtalk and any bridge that can be built between intent and the horrors of programming. That is a professional opinion, a philosophy. When I purchase a product, that decision, and the money that is exchanged is my argument for that product, and should be sufficient to pay for any PR the company uses to attract other customers. And to ask for help without explaining how that decision to ask for customer help was made (and why) or at a minimum also venturing your own attempt at the same debate seems a tad unfair. Choosing a tool, especially in programming where endless hours are eaten up thereafter, well that is argument in itself. Use it! Tell the world how many rev users there are. If someone, unabated, wants to defend your products in public debate, so be it. But to ask this of your own customers? If the product were free, and if you were an unpaid volunteer, well maybe. randall ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
On 11/29/09 6:52 PM, Jim Bufalini wrote: Randall Reetz wrote The idea that the customer services manager of a company would enlist that company's own customers in a public debate over the merits of that company's product and the rather easy to debase claims it made of its product... Well it just feels a little icky. I am a huge fan of xtalk and any bridge that can be built between intent and the horrors of programming. That is a professional opinion, a philosophy. When I purchase a product, that decision, and the money that is exchanged is my argument for that product, and should be sufficient to pay for any PR the company uses to attract other customers. And to ask for help without explaining how that decision to ask for customer help was made (and why) or at a minimum also venturing your own attempt at the same debate seems a tad unfair. Choosing a tool, especially in programming where endless hours are eaten up thereafter, well that is argument in itself. Use it! Tell the world how many rev users there are. If someone, unabated, wants to defend your products in public debate, so be it. But to ask this of your own customers? If the product were free, and if you were an unpaid volunteer, well maybe. Break your thoughts into paragraphs please ;-) My eyes glosses over. Randall's long 'things' always do that; paragraphed or not. I'm not moaning: I paid half-dibs to go to a programming conference in Scotland and received Studio 4 for Mac, Win and Linux: which, if you count on your toes as well as your fingers means a net profit to me. And, as the folks at RunRev well know; there's no shutting up Mr Mathewson - one way or another I will support them; both because of recent events and because they have put up with "one awkward customer" with great good humour for many years. Randall out to calm down as all his messages seem to do is make everybody else cheesed-off. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
On Nov 29, 2009, at 8:40 AM, Randall Reetz wrote: > The idea that the customer services manager of a company would enlist that > company's own customers in a public debate over the merits of that company's > product and the rather easy to debase claims it made of its product... Well > it just feels a little icky. I felt informed of a discussion, not enlisted. I felt invited to participate in a discussion if I wanted, not coerced. I got the message on a list-serve with scores of other messages per day, not in a private email. I actually feel better informed than before, as I see what Rev is up against in the "serious" programming marketplace. I just can't muster that "icky" feeling over this. Mark___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Here's a good interview that discusses some of the same issues as the slashdot thread. (The only difference being that she knows what she's talking about.) http://zathras.de/angelweb/xtalkinterview-jeanne-a-e-devoto.htm If anyone at slashdot was really interested in runrev they would have crashed the runrev server -- the verb is "slashdotting." Not being malicious -- it's just that they can generate that much traffic. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
> The idea that the customer services manager of a company > would enlist that company's own customers in a public debate > over the merits of that company's product and the rather easy > to debase claims it made of its product... Well it just feels > a little icky. Randall, I can appreciate that you spend a significant amount of time to evaluate a product, but a lot of folks will make snap judgements and never give something a try because some blogger puts a negative spin on it - especially true in development tools (Ive sold a really broad range of software, from 3D modeling to games to business software) because of the emotional investment many make into such complex tools. There are a lot of folks here who have been with Revolution for years, and they are the best advocates. My half educated guess is that those same folks use more than one tool (more so than developers who typically code in C++), and are suited to weigh the value of Rev vs other tools. The dynamics of selling a development tool are quite different than other software products and user feedback, case studies and informed comment count so much more for the lack of coverage in conventional technology news venues. I think its entirely reasonable for company reps to ask for comment - the popularity and exposure of that product brings it more success, which means better support. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Paradigma Software http://www.paradigmasoft.com Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Le 29 nov. 2009 à 21:20, Lynn Fredricks a écrit : >> The idea that the customer services manager of a company >> would enlist that company's own customers in a public debate >> over the merits of that company's product and the rather easy >> to debase claims it made of its product... Well it just feels >> a little icky. > > Randall, > > I can appreciate that you spend a significant amount of time to evaluate a > product, but a lot of folks will make snap judgements and never give > something a try because some blogger puts a negative spin on it - especially > true in development tools (Ive sold a really broad range of software, from > 3D modeling to games to business software) because of the emotional > investment many make into such complex tools. > > There are a lot of folks here who have been with Revolution for years, and > they are the best advocates. My half educated guess is that those same folks > use more than one tool (more so than developers who typically code in C++), > and are suited to weigh the value of Rev vs other tools. > > The dynamics of selling a development tool are quite different than other > software products and user feedback, case studies and informed comment count > so much more for the lack of coverage in conventional technology news > venues. I think its entirely reasonable for company reps to ask for comment > - the popularity and exposure of that product brings it more success, which > means better support. IMHO, a good things would be to describe what is the purpose of this slashdot thing, no? The few times I have I have visited the site, the posts seemed as strange to me as when my elder son talks biotechnology to me. But maybe this what make revolution different from what those people (i.e. /dot) are interested in? "The most deaf of men is the one who will not listen" François ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
IMHO, a good things would be to describe what is the purpose of this slashdot thing, no? The few times I have I have visited the site, the posts seemed as strange to me as when my elder son talks biotechnology to me. But maybe this what make revolution different from what those people (i.e. /dot) are interested in? "The most deaf of men is the one who will not listen" François Very well said indeed! Many years ago I went to Durham (England) to study Philosophy; after we had been studying what dead and half-dead philosophers had been writing and saying for about 2 years Mary Midgley came down from Newcastle, walked straight into one of our lectures and said: "Why don't you just DO philosophy instead of all this dull stuff?" She has been one of my heros ever since: http://andregarzia.on-rev.com/richmond/hmc.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
On Nov 29, 2009, at 9:29 AM, Marty Knapp wrote: > Personally, I felt no compulsion to defend Rev because they let us know there > was a debate going on at slash dot. Neither was I offended by that. When I'm > getting ready to make a purchase (software or otherwise) I very much want to > read what real world users are saying about it (as opposed to paid PR) - > what's so bad about that? And I will also say that there is much more of a > community here than I've experienced in connection with any other software > product. In this light, I did not find RunRev's "enlistment" out of line in > the least. For community, try FileMaker. Bruce Robertson___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
I've sent an apology to Randall for making fun of his post. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
The slippery (or in this case "invisible") slope of "gorilla" PR is powerful especially and only because it sneeks so silently and politely under our BS radar. So called "multi-level" marketing proponents have known this forever. Sell to "friends" and your effectiveness skyrockets. Any activity that acts "friendly" but has a commercial motivation fits this category. We have become so used to having it done to us (and doing it ourselves) that we don't still have that hair up sensation that used to be our reaction. But the result is a hardening, a loss of the separate sameness that used to be reserved only for the category "friends and family". Now we expect to be targets of the misuse of that privilege. An arms war where the winner can only result in the loss of real trust and the very real need for a sanctuary away from "pitch" and "spin". We can't have our guard up all of the time. Too costly. Neither can we let go of the distinction between authenticity and huckstering. Subtle but important. The old warning, "Never cry wolf", never had as much relevance. And none of this has anything to do with the actual topic of the relevance of the xtalk programming family. That is sad. randall ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
On Nov 29, 2009, at 6:23 PM, Randall Reetz wrote: The slippery (or in this case "invisible") slope of "gorilla" PR is powerful especially and only because it sneeks so silently and politely under our BS radar. So called "multi-level" marketing proponents have known this forever. Sell to "friends" and your effectiveness skyrockets. Any activity that acts "friendly" but has a commercial motivation fits this category. We have become so used to having it done to us (and doing it ourselves) that we don't still have that hair up sensation that used to be our reaction. But the result is a hardening, a loss of the separate sameness that used to be reserved only for the category "friends and family". Now we expect to be targets of the misuse of that privilege. An arms war where the winner can only result in the loss of real trust and the very real need for a sanctuary away from "pitch" and "spin". We can't have our guard up all of the time. Too costly. Neither can we let go of the distinction between authenticity and huckstering. Subtle but important. The old warning, "Never cry wolf", never had as much relevance. And none of this has anything to do with the actual topic of the relevance of the xtalk programming family. That is sad. In case you're wondering, I'd like to confirm that you *are* now just blathering to the group. But you got this much right pertaining to your own comments... And none of this has anything to do with the actual topic of the relevance of the xtalk programming family. That is sad. -- Troy RPSystems, Ltd. http://www.rpsystems.net ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
There is no way I would ever post a request for comments before offering my own, and backing them up with why I fell the way I do. Hidden rhetoric is the great attractor comes from the anonymity of the web. People have used this method throughout time, but familiarity really gets in the way of BS. A restriction absent on the web. People play the web like a graft of chess and lord of the flies. And curses to anyone who points aghast behind the curtains. Send in the dogs. Who are the stake holders? I wonder. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Worse still. Its bad PR. Imagine general motors sending out a call to arms when ever a comedian or critic posted a joke about the caprice. I would have sent a plane ticket to that blogger. "Please be our guest for a few days and meet our staff and get to know our product from the inside out. You will have full candid access to our top developers and customers." randall ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Worse still. Its bad PR. In your opinion. In my opinion, I think it's nice to see people who actually USE a product come to its defense. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Hi Randall, My intent in replying is not to say you're "wrong" or even to disagree with you... just to point out that Heather's only request was if one felt like posting to "keep it positive" -- in the sense of being respectful toward the *blog author*, not being positive about Revolution. Heather wrote: If you feel the urge to post a comment, the blogger is inviting debate - just keep it positive... it's probably best not to wade in guns blazing if you disagree with his view. I think there is an interesting debate to be had here. There's surely a diversity of opinions about Rev in the use-list; the posts are not 100% rosy. Some current and former customers have mentioned their dislikes, skepticism of our bold productivity claim, etc. Heather certainly invited that. I would hope there could be some way of posting notice here of a prominent article about us that would be regarded appropriate by everyone. Perhaps it was the wording that turned you off? What would you like to see happen in the future? Should news of such articles come only from customers? As a marketing guy (who did *not* request Heather's posting), I will say the guerilla effect is welcomed. Between this article and the coverage on Slashdot, our site traffic surged. It garnered us many new visitors... more in the space of a couple days than we usually get in a month. I certainly don't see the articles as fluff. They are controversial; the comments raise many points, good and bad, about us. The Slashdot threads being almost brutal. Yet we've seen thousands of fresh faces give our products a look-see for themselves. It's easy to forget how small we really are. The vast majority of people making software today have never heard of us. We are a tiny fraction of the former HyperCard user base. Yet, we are arguably the most successful, usable, and capable implementation of that vision around. We see ourselves as stewards of that legacy. Our major investments this past year, including the Web plugin and free revMedia, are designed not only to deliver more value to customers, but also to expose orders of magnitude more people to our unique philosophy of software construction. As fans of xTalk (a heritage we've reinforced and given homage to by naming our language "revTalk"), I would wish all of us would have a stake in the vitality of our efforts -- getting the word out and reminding people there is indeed still such a thing as "programming for the rest of us." I, for one, wouldn't be coding at all these days if it weren't for Rev. - Bill, RunRev marketing guy ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
I have used xtalk continuously since a year after hypercard was introduced. I saw nothing in the slashdot blog post that was technically specific to rev (excepting of course the wild claims rev has made of its product). ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Yes, such a debate is natural and unavoidable and healthy (even when it gets nasty). Has nothing to do with the intent of my original post. I am simply and obviously questioning the integrity of the original intent of the original post in this thread (coming as it did from a paid employee charged with customer relations no less). But mostly my comments are general and concern the slow but steady disregard of integrity as a general concept and contract of social behavior. Which is, by the way, not in any way related to the far more common (and morally repugnant) stand-in... loyalty. Loyalty is just a cleaned up word that stands for fear of social reprisal. As example: witness the very personal witch hunt that followed my first post. Luckily, I am (almost) immune. Ultimately, it is truth that matters. We should be big enough to engage in the larger more meaningful debates that go beyond ego and tribalism. Courage. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Hi Absolutely. I'd simply like Rev to become more popular so as to allow RunRev to provide a better product. btw.. http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/a9617/ask_does_anybody_use_runtime_revolution_here_how/ regards alex Petrides, M.D. Marian wrote: Worse still. Its bad PR. In your opinion. In my opinion, I think it's nice to see people who actually USE a product come to its defense. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Am I to interpret that statement as meaning the user comments that were posted in response to the blog entry somehow lack integrity, simply because Heather brought the original post to our attention? If that IS what you are saying, then I take offense at such an intimation. Nobody told me what to write, nor could they have. I suspect the same is true of the other folks who posted replies to the blog If I am misinterpreting what you said, then I'm sorry. On Nov 29, 2009, at 9:19 PM, Randall Reetz wrote: But mostly my comments are general and concern the slow but steady disregard of integrity as a general concept ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Randall Reetz wrote: > Yes, such a debate is natural and unavoidable and healthy (even when it gets > nasty). Has nothing to do with the intent of my original post. I am simply > and obviously questioning the integrity of the original intent of the > original post in this thread (coming as it did from a paid employee charged > with customer relations no less). But mostly my comments are general and > concern the slow but steady disregard of integrity as a general concept and > contract of social behavior. Which is, by the way, not in any way related to > the far more common (and morally repugnant) stand-in... loyalty. Loyalty is > just a cleaned up word that stands for fear of social reprisal. As example: > witness the very personal witch hunt that followed my first post. Luckily, I > am (almost) immune. Ultimately, it is truth that matters. We should be big > enough to engage in the larger more meaningful debates that go beyond ego and > tribalism. Courage. Courage is an attribute that is becoming sadly devalued in the modern world. I would be very upset to see loyalty going the same way, but happily I believe that you are criticising blind loyalty, not true, reasoned loyalty, which should never be regarded as repugnant. Regards, Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
I mean ANY form of loyalty. ALL LOYALTY is based on the perception of belonging which is always defined by exclusivity. It is the friendly face put on every negative trait exhibited by humans: nepitism, racism, sexism, religious and every other form of superiority. Nobody joins a group to assert their equality with those not of the group. Though we are often fooled, cool-aid is cool-aid, no matter how long it has been aged. A simple commitment to truth is a much more moral (fair) alternative. That and compassion. It would be instructive here to place run-rev in historical and genealogical perspective. In 1987 apple introduced a product based on the genius of smalltalk that it called hypercard. A few years later, when apple failed to keep hypercard modern, supercard brought color to the xtalk family. When supercard ignored the other platforms (windows and unix), metacard came to the rescue. What back-room finagleing prompted the metacard people to change their name to "run time revolution" the single most awkward product name in the history of product names, god only knows. But here we are. And it is good to remember that the real genius of the entire lineage of programming tools was based upon the insights of two men, alan kay (smalltalk, objects and message passing) and bill atkinson (the simplification of the object stack to a few predefined layers, and a wysiwyg interface). Nothing done since has been anything but standard version, product management, and customer relations. Not to diminish the importance of or difficulty keeping a product current and supporting customers, but the real value of xtalk IP was handed free of charge to everyone after apple and owes much to the work of alan kay 30 years earlier. Lets keep some perspective here. If rev wants loyalty, then at the very least they should share it with the guys who invented all of the stuff it brags about in its sales pitches. Cause almost none of it was naively derived at "run time revolution". randall ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
True, true, and unrelated. My take on the same scenario is that Apple had a great product, and Supercard and Metacard after them. They all just dropped the ball. RunRev came along picked up that ball and have been running with it ever since--despite what I perceive to be major obstacles along the way. Why shouldn't they have my loyalty? They are the only folks who've stuck with it for the long haul. Marian On Nov 30, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Randall Reetz wrote: > I mean ANY form of loyalty. ALL LOYALTY is based on the perception of > belonging which is always defined by exclusivity. It is the friendly face > put on every negative trait exhibited by humans: nepitism, racism, sexism, > religious and every other form of superiority. Nobody joins a group to > assert their equality with those not of the group. Though we are often > fooled, cool-aid is cool-aid, no matter how long it has been aged. A simple > commitment to truth is a much more moral (fair) alternative. That and > compassion. > > It would be instructive here to place run-rev in historical and genealogical > perspective. In 1987 apple introduced a product based on the genius of > smalltalk that it called hypercard. A few years later, when apple failed to > keep hypercard modern, supercard brought color to the xtalk family. When > supercard ignored the other platforms (windows and unix), metacard came to > the rescue. What back-room finagleing prompted the metacard people to change > their name to "run time revolution" the single most awkward product name in > the history of product names, god only knows. But here we are. And it is > good to remember that the real genius of the entire lineage of programming > tools was based upon the insights of two men, alan kay (smalltalk, objects > and message passing) and bill atkinson (the simplification of the object > stack to a few predefined layers, and a wysiwyg interface). Nothing done > since has been anything but standard version, product management, and > customer relations. Not to diminish the importance of or difficulty keeping > a product current and supporting customers, but the real value of xtalk IP > was handed free of charge to everyone after apple and owes much to the work > of alan kay 30 years earlier. > > Lets keep some perspective here. If rev wants loyalty, then at the very > least they should share it with the guys who invented all of the stuff it > brags about in its sales pitches. Cause almost none of it was naively > derived at "run time revolution". > > randall > ___ > use-revolution mailing list > use-revolution@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Recently, Randall Reetz wrote: > It would be instructive here to place run-rev in historical and genealogical > perspective. In 1987 apple introduced a product based on the genius of > smalltalk that it called hypercard. > ... > Lets keep some perspective here. If rev wants loyalty, then at the very least > they should share it with the guys who invented all of the stuff it brags > about in its sales pitches. Cause almost none of it was naively derived at > "run time revolution". Loyalty aside, IMO the entire Hypercard comparison and reflection needs to end and go away. Revolution is not Hypercard, and I don't see how comparing Rev to a dead product invented 20+ years ago serves either the product or its potential users. I for one would like to see 2010 begin an era where all Hypercard comparisons are removed. Rev has been around for years now -- I think it's quite capable of standing on its own, without the crutch of a bygone development tool to prop it up. Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
On 11/30/09 7:13 PM, Randall Reetz wrote: I mean ANY form of loyalty. ALL LOYALTY is based on the perception of belonging which is always defined by exclusivity. It is the friendly face put on every negative trait exhibited by humans: nepitism, racism, sexism, religious and every other form of superiority. Nobody joins a group to assert their equality with those not of the group. Though we are often fooled, cool-aid is cool-aid, no matter how long it has been aged. A simple commitment to truth is a much more moral (fair) alternative. That and compassion. It would be instructive here to place run-rev in historical and genealogical perspective. In 1987 apple introduced a product based on the genius of smalltalk that it called hypercard. A few years later, when apple failed to keep hypercard modern, supercard brought color to the xtalk family. When supercard ignored the other platforms (windows and unix), metacard came to the rescue. What back-room finagleing prompted the metacard people to change their name to "run time revolution" the single most awkward product name in the history of product names, god only knows. But here we are. And it is good to remember that the real genius of the entire lineage of programming tools was based upon the insights of two men, alan kay (smalltalk, objects and message passing) and bill atkinson (the simplification of the object stack to a few predefined layers, and a wysiwyg interface). Nothing done since has been anything but standard version, product management, and customer relations. Not to diminish the importance of or difficulty keeping a product current and supporting customers, but the real value of xtalk IP was handed free of charge to everyone after apple and owes much to the work of alan kay 30 years earlier. Lets keep some perspective here. If rev wants loyalty, then at the very least they should share it with the guys who invented all of the stuff it brags about in its sales pitches. Cause almost none of it was naively derived at "run time revolution". Good Lord! After a long day's teaching I thought I would wind down by reading the Use-List posting - and it starts with a real headache-causer from RR (the other one, not RunRev). ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
On 11/30/09 7:35 PM, Scott Rossi wrote: Loyalty aside, IMO the entire Hypercard comparison and reflection needs to end and go away. Revolution is not Hypercard, and I don't see how comparing Rev to a dead product invented 20+ years ago serves either the product or its potential users. I for one would like to see 2010 begin an era where all Hypercard comparisons are removed. Rev has been around for years now -- I think it's quite capable of standing on its own, without the crutch of a bygone development tool to prop it up. This is about the only valuable point made in this discussion. I am not my grandfather; I do not all of his strengths, not all of his short-comings; his memory is very precious to me, but I do not seek to emulate him. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
I disagree with the "SHHH! DON'T MENTION HC!" sentiment. The HC comparison is exactly what brought me here. Otherwise I would have ignored RR. I suspect there are many old-school HC fans that are an easy audience. -- On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth On the second day, God created the oceans. On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours, and did a little diving. And God said, "This is good." ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Mikey wrote: The HC comparison is exactly what brought me here. Otherwise I would have ignored RR. I suspect there are many old-school HC fans that are an easy audience. Ayup. I got Rev in the first place because it looked like just what I wanted--a cross-platform version of Hypercard. I continue to purchase updates (I think I am now good until 2015 or so) because it is that AND SO MUCH MORE. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
In 1987 Apple introduced a product based on the genius of SmallTalk that it called HyperCard. I've always been baffled by the comparisons to SmallTalk. Message passing, perhaps, but the syntax couldn't be more different. What back-room finagling prompted the MetaCard people to change their name [...] [...] the entire lineage of programming tools was based upon the insights of two men MetaCard did not change its name; the technology was purchased outright by RunRev; and Dan Winkler, not Bill Atkinson, invented HyperTalk. Winkler, incidentally, is a fan: "I'm especially impressed with the way you've preserved the same feel and flavor of HyperCard even in all the new features you've added and revised... When I finally got to Revolution it was like coming home again... You have created a very worthy successor to HyperCard, the only one I've seen which captures, preserves and seamlessly extends everything I thought was great about the original." -- Dan Winkler ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
I tried to post, but daggumit I have to register AGAIN because it's ZDNET UK! Bah! Forget it. Bob On Nov 25, 2009, at 7:51 AM, Heather Nagey wrote: > I just came across this: > > http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,100567,10014516o-2000458459b,00.htm > > Thought it would interest you guys! If you feel the urge to post a comment, > the blogger is inviting debate - just keep it positive... it's probably best > not to wade in guns blazing if you disagree with his view. I think there is > an interesting debate to be had here. > > Nice to see Rev starting to attract widespread media interest :) > > Regards, > > Heather > > Heather Nagey > Customer Services Manager > http://www.runrev.com/ > RunRev - Software construction for everyone > follow me on twitter > http://www.twitter.com/lainopik > > ___ > use-revolution mailing list > use-revolution@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
OMG the aliens have stolen your sensibility! Your original post has been countered by virtually everyone! Doesn't that wave a yellow flag in your head somewhere? You stand alone on this, and for good reason! If you don't want to post on the blog, then DON'T POST ON THE BLOG! But DON"T revile Heather for asking us to review and opt in on a blog that clearly interests almost everyone here! That was RUDE of you. There I said what you were all trying to say diplomatically. Bob On Nov 29, 2009, at 1:23 PM, Randall Reetz wrote: > The slippery (or in this case "invisible") slope of "gorilla" PR is powerful > especially and only because it sneeks so silently and politely under our BS > radar. So called "multi-level" marketing proponents have known this forever. > Sell to "friends" and your effectiveness skyrockets. Any activity that acts > "friendly" but has a commercial motivation fits this category. We have > become so used to having it done to us (and doing it ourselves) that we don't > still have that hair up sensation that used to be our reaction. But the > result is a hardening, a loss of the separate sameness that used to be > reserved only for the category "friends and family". Now we expect to be > targets of the misuse of that privilege. An arms war where the winner can > only result in the loss of real trust and the very real need for a sanctuary > away from "pitch" and "spin". We can't have our guard up all of the time. > Too costly. Neither can we let go of the distinction between authenticity > and huckstering. Subtle but important. The old warning, "Never cry wolf", > never had as much relevance. And none of this has anything to do with the > actual topic of the relevance of the xtalk programming family. That is sad. > > randall > ___ > use-revolution mailing list > use-revolution@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Did your ramblings and indirection sufficiently derail my point? And you are dead wrong on all of your statements. Talk to the meat of a statement or don't talk. Anything else is obvious rhetorical maneuvering. Lawyer? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
No. The "ramblings" only served to point out that your point was irrelevant because you were making it to a group who all found the original post to be of interest. Only you were offended. That seems to me unavoidable. Bob On Nov 30, 2009, at 9:05 AM, Randall Reetz wrote: > Did your ramblings and indirection sufficiently derail my point? And you are > dead wrong on all of your statements. Talk to the meat of a statement or > don't talk. Anything else is obvious rhetorical maneuvering. Lawyer? > ___ > use-revolution mailing list > use-revolution@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription > preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Ok, here is my labored rebuttal. I haven't checked, but I think I correctly said that hyperCARD was invented by atkinson. I never exposed any dislike of the run-rev product (i am a fan as well!). My point about integrity and truth was well expressed and clearly argued. The fact that the product was sold to another company does not explain the awkwardness of the product name. But the layered abstraction that results is a part of the problem I wanted to expose... that the history of the origin of the intellectual property upon which the product is built and from which it gets most if not all of its basic shape and function, is not rightfully recognized in marketing claims. run-rev has made contributions to the scheme, and has built a customer support machine second to none in this nitch. But that doesn't justify a rewrite of history. And none of this is topical to the original post I offered in this thread. That point was plainly expressed. Honesty and integrity. They matter. randall ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
As for the direct inheritance hypercard owes to smalltalk, if you don't see it, you are not recognizing the huge difference between pre and post object thinking in programming. That dan winkler chose to use the word "talk" in hypertalk was a strong wink to alan kay and his smalltalk (the first object and message passing language). In a very real way, hypercard was more object oriented than smalltalk simple because objects were reafied into the more tactile and "physical" world of interaction widgets as pre-typed entities blessed by official and unalterable associated behaviors. Ask dan if he owes a nod to alan? And please don't argue one point to distract from others. Integrity. Transparency of intent. randall ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 3:13 AM, Randall Reetz wrote: > I mean ANY form of loyalty. ALL LOYALTY is based on the perception of > belonging which is always defined by exclusivity. It is the friendly face > put on every negative trait exhibited by humans: nepitism, racism, sexism, > religious and every other form of superiority. Nobody joins a group to > assert their equality with those not of the group. Though we are often > fooled, cool-aid is cool-aid, no matter how long it has been aged. A simple > commitment to truth is a much more moral (fair) alternative. That and > compassion. Randall, you have managed to engage my sympathy. If you live in an environment where loyalty is considered a bad thing, then you must be a very lonely person. I hope things improve for you soon. Regards, Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Amen. Tom McGrath III Lazy River Software 3mcgr...@comcast.net iTunes Library Suite - libITS Information and download can be found on this page: http://www.lazyriversoftware.com/RevOne.html On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Scott Rossi wrote: Rev has been around for years now -- I think it's quite capable of standing on its own, without the crutch of a bygone development tool to prop it up. Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
On Nov 30, 2009, at 3:26 PM, Randall Reetz wrote: Integrity. Transparency of intent. This thread is done for me. -- Troy RPSystems, Ltd. http://www.rpsystems.net ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Why the threatened continence? Why the need to frame this conversation as having anything to do with a question of the viability of RunRev? This thread started with a call to debate a journalist who asked some questions about the veracity of some rather strident marketing statements made by Revolution about its product. This call came from the runrev customer service manager, which I find slimy. However, both the comments made by the journalist/blogger and the marketing claims he referenced, surrounded the much more general merit of macro languages and user-programming environments that seek to automate much of the busywork code-minutia necessary in "professional" languages. This is not a rev specific issue as it is shared equally by all xtalk languages. So much of what Revolution claims as unique are in fact inherited (for free!) from hypercard and smalltalk, apple and xerox PARC. The fact so many on this list continue to treat runrev as some sickly child that needs to be protected is really ill-advised as public relations. Nor is this attitude based in reality. RunRev is in good standing. Has a decent customer base. Actions based in paranoia do more harm than good. The product is fine. The category is fine. Acting like hyenas just makes the product look like it is about to fall down and die. The very notion that a criticism of hyper- protective and overdrive spin mastering is akin to critism of the product is a great example of the paranoia of which I speak. It is ugly and it results in ugly public relations acts. The notion that runrev will somehow suffer if it acknowledges its stellar ancestry... even more absurd. Both Alan Kay and Bill Aktinson are canonized and deservingly so. They were visionaries far ahead of their peers. Want more, who also influenced the emergence of hypercard and hypertalk? How about Douglas Engelbart and Theodore (Ted) Nelson. RunRev's own separate lineage began with MetaCard and is distinguished by its insistence on multi-platform development and deployment. With the advent of a web player, runrev has done what only one other xtalk environment has done. And all of this deployed by the largest and most stable of the xtalk commercialization groups... these are the attributes runrev alone can claim. The rest of its history is merged with all other xtalk histories and should be acknowledged as such. We in the U.S. tend to envy the British for their innate tendency towards a particularly handsome form of understated but strong form of humility. The complex and influential heritage of both Britain and RunRev product are certainly deserving of the deep confidence from which I always assumed this humility arose. Randall Reetz On Nov 25, 2009, at 9:51 AM, Heather Nagey wrote: I just came across this: http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/ 0,100567,10014516o-2000458459b,00.htm Thought it would interest you guys! If you feel the urge to post a comment, the blogger is inviting debate - just keep it positive... it's probably best not to wade in guns blazing if you disagree with his view. I think there is an interesting debate to be had here. Nice to see Rev starting to attract widespread media interest :) Regards, Heather Heather Nagey Customer Services Manager http://www.runrev.com/ RunRev - Software construction for everyone follow me on twitter http://www.twitter.com/lainopik ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
The use of that word and words like it are what everyone objects to in reference to Sarah. Bob On Nov 30, 2009, at 3:53 PM, Randall Lee Reetz wrote: > slimy ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Scott Rossi wrote Rev has been around for years now -- I think it's quite capable of standing on its own, without the crutch of a bygone development tool to prop it up. But comments by those ignorant of the history imply that revTalk is a new kid on the block and will come and go like so many others. Is there no value in making it clear that xTalk as a tool (regardless of the IDE wrapper, HC, Supercard MC etc.) is as old as the Personal Computing Revolution itself? I tell people, simply: "It's not open source, and it's not a well known as PHP, but it's xTalk and xTalk has been around since 1983, and if it is good enough for NASA, I think we don't need to worry about vesting content in the RunRev platform. The core of the language has been with us for 25 years. Its robust, powerful, fast and facile and in RunRev's hands, it is only getting better and better every year. It will be around for another 50, at least as long as your lifetime." Why throw away the history? skts ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Recently, Sivakatirswami wrote: > Scott Rossi wrote >> Rev has been around for years now -- >> I think it's quite capable of standing on its own, without the crutch of a >> bygone development tool to prop it up. >> > But comments by those ignorant of the history imply that revTalk is a > new kid on the block and will come and go like so many others. I wasn't referring to history, I was stating my belief that comparing Rev to a long dead application (Hypercard) does not convey adoption, currency, or relevance to me. > Is there no value in making it clear that xTalk as a tool (regardless of > the IDE wrapper, HC, Supercard MC etc.) is as old as the Personal > Computing Revolution itself? If you have to inform people of the history, I'd say the history has little value. People want to know 1) What can they do with it, and 2) How many people are using it, in an effort to determine 3) Is it worth their time and effort to invest in it. Comparing Rev to something that is discontinued and unsupported doesn't substantiate any of the above. Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
No matter what bells and whistles you heap on xtalk, what separates it from the other languages (which of course have the same bells) is the human-ness of the xtalk syntax and the grock-ability of the card/background/stack object hierarchy. The bells are polish and fit, but the essence is the genius of the whole gestalt so well defined so long ago. As has been said, it isn't easy to provide a steady and effective business to keep the product topical and working on the endlessly shifting OS/hardware machinery underneath. That is what a group like run-rev adds. That the product is elegant, well that is about history and bold genius. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
My god. An action feels slimy, not a person! Do I seem like a someone who doesn't speak my mind, that says one thing and means another? If I wanted to even so much as imply that sarah, who I do not know, is herself, some sort of person or another, don't you think I would have said so directly Maybe everyone is so used to political tactics and sideways spin that they can't anticipate plain old honesty. Also, I like anyone else, can be wrong. Still, it is worth talking to feelings and impressions. No?Of actions, not people. Paying attention. Caring. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
This is getting annoying and way OT. This thread is becoming too emotional and confrontational. Can't we talk about Rev and code? s ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
On 12/1/09 7:19 AM, Sivakatirswami wrote: Scott Rossi wrote Rev has been around for years now -- I think it's quite capable of standing on its own, without the crutch of a bygone development tool to prop it up. But comments by those ignorant of the history imply that revTalk is a new kid on the block and will come and go like so many others. Is there no value in making it clear that xTalk as a tool (regardless of the IDE wrapper, HC, Supercard MC etc.) is as old as the Personal Computing Revolution itself? I tell people, simply: "It's not open source, and it's not a well known as PHP, but it's xTalk and xTalk has been around since 1983, and if it is good enough for NASA, I think we don't need to worry about vesting content in the RunRev platform. The core of the language has been with us for 25 years. Its robust, powerful, fast and facile and in RunRev's hands, it is only getting better and better every year. It will be around for another 50, at least as long as your lifetime." Why throw away the history? I don't think "throwing away the history" is ever a good thing, but laying the history on thick can also prove detrimental. An impression could be gained that RunRev is a coterie interest just for long-in-the-tooth types who used to work with Hypercard. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
On 12/1/09 8:59 AM, Randall Reetz wrote: My god. An action feels slimy, not a person! Do I seem like a someone who doesn't speak my mind, that says one thing and means another? If I wanted to even so much as imply that sarah, who I do not know, is herself, some sort of person or another, don't you think I would have said so directly Maybe everyone is so used to political tactics and sideways spin that they can't anticipate plain old honesty. Also, I like anyone else, can be wrong. Still, it is worth talking to feelings and impressions. No?Of actions, not people. Paying attention. Caring. Cripes! Aspirin, quick, somebody. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Randall, your suggestion that GM should "have sent a plane ticket to that blogger. "Please be our guest for a few days and meet our staff and get to know our product from the inside out. You will have full candid access to our top developers and customers." Although I think you made a HUGE mistake there, surely you didn't mean 'customers' because that would be doing exactly what Rev did - or is there some difference between reading email testimonies and verbally receiving them. Didn't you only one line earlier in the same post ridicule the idea of "general motors sending out a call to arms". So wouldn't these 'customers' that the blogger was suppose to meet somehow be called or emailed. And who would do that? The Chief Engineer, because if it was Heather in GM Marketing who email you I'd guess your response would be - no that's slimy, you do it. (Or is it only slimy if someone else thinks of it, but OK if you suggest it) Some of your comments I find very informed and I can agree with, but in most cases, in this thread, seemed removed from the underlying unhappiness with your use of the word slimy. Unfortunately, one of your posts was so contradictory that I can only conclude that the rests of you post are smoke screens to hopefully remove the focus on the original faux pas. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
All decent IDEs have a robust set of programming support, and resource and project management affordances. What matters, beyond the obvious differences defined by the language an IDE supports, and what therefore sets one IDE above another, is how well an IDE matches the personality of its language and target customer's use style. This, customer support, and staying contemporary with the changing world, is the arena in which rev competes and the sphere of influence about which it can rightfully brag. Does run-rev out xtalk other xtalk IDEs? But the question of whether xtalk is, as a category, a worthy development choice, well that is a categorical debate and has little to do with run-rev specifically. An interpreted script-based language is a fundamentally different animal than a compiled language. I have always been a big fan of natural language syntax programming. I don't program for the complexity of the process. I program for aptitude of the finished product. I bicycle for the pain cause pain on my bicycle equals physical fitness. But I program towards an end, and that end isn't some sort of macho need for pain. Ultimately, I hope to find a product I can have a gentlemans conversation with and it does the heavy lifting, building the logic while we talk in broad poetic terms. Until then, there is xtalk. Has any xtalk support company really kept up with the potential of the pioneering direction initiated by smalltalk and hypercard? I don't think anyone has come close. But, the other languages are even further behind. Have you tried C or java or lisp or how about a functional language Holy crap! I don't hate "real" programmers, sometimes they dial in my intent after I have sketched it out in xtalk. That is how I see xtalk. As a rapid prototyping tool. Maybe the prototype is enough to run mission critical tasks for years. Sometimes it helps me see what not to do tomorrow. But mostly it lowers the pain bar exposing a far larger set of solutions for the same input of time and effort. As for the effort needed to build and maintain an interpreted execution environment... Well it is nothing less than what a compiler does except that it has to work line by line in real time at rates indistinguishable from machine binary. Almost impossible. And none of that comes free from apple or xerox (none legally anyway). But at this level again there is plenty of competition. Javascript, perl, python, visual basic. Hell, many compiled languages now come in IDEs which allow an interpreted interactive development mode. What sets xtalk apart is the pre-built widget objects and high level functions that can be called and controlled through intuitive english like phrases. That and the program shell (stack) which handles the arcane and mundane so that the author can get down to the creation of domain solutions and not computer science. In my case, the domain is computer science, and xtalk works just fine. randall ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Much more smoke. On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Randall Reetz wrote: > All decent IDEs have a robust set of programming support, and resource and > project management affordances. What matters, beyond the obvious > differences defined by the language an IDE supports, and what therefore sets > one IDE above another, is how well an IDE matches the personality of its > language and target customer's use style. This, customer support, and > staying contemporary with the changing world, is the arena in which rev > competes and the sphere of influence about which it can rightfully brag. > Does run-rev out xtalk other xtalk IDEs? But the question of whether xtalk > is, as a category, a worthy development choice, well that is a categorical > debate and has little to do with run-rev specifically. An interpreted > script-based language is a fundamentally different animal than a compiled > language. I have always been a big fan of natural language syntax > programming. I don't program for the complexity of the process. I program > for aptitude of the finished product. I bicycle for the pain cause pain on > my bicycle equals physical fitness. But I program towards an end, and that > end isn't some sort of macho need for pain. Ultimately, I hope to find a > product I can have a gentlemans conversation with and it does the heavy > lifting, building the logic while we talk in broad poetic terms. Until > then, there is xtalk. Has any xtalk support company really kept up with the > potential of the pioneering direction initiated by smalltalk and hypercard? > I don't think anyone has come close. But, the other languages are even > further behind. Have you tried C or java or lisp or how about a functional > language Holy crap! I don't hate "real" programmers, sometimes they > dial in my intent after I have sketched it out in xtalk. That is how I see > xtalk. As a rapid prototyping tool. Maybe the prototype is enough to run > mission critical tasks for years. Sometimes it helps me see what not to do > tomorrow. But mostly it lowers the pain bar exposing a far larger set of > solutions for the same input of time and effort. > > As for the effort needed to build and maintain an interpreted execution > environment... Well it is nothing less than what a compiler does except that > it has to work line by line in real time at rates indistinguishable from > machine binary. Almost impossible. And none of that comes free from apple > or xerox (none legally anyway). But at this level again there is plenty of > competition. Javascript, perl, python, visual basic. Hell, many compiled > languages now come in IDEs which allow an interpreted interactive > development mode. What sets xtalk apart is the pre-built widget objects and > high level functions that can be called and controlled through intuitive > english like phrases. That and the program shell (stack) which handles the > arcane and mundane so that the author can get down to the creation of domain > solutions and not computer science. In my case, the domain is computer > science, and xtalk works just fine. > > randall > ___ > use-revolution mailing list > use-revolution@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution > ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Maybe not, but it helped a former student who took my course when it was Hypercard-based to find Rev. That's one more user than the company would otherwise have had. Judy On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Scott Rossi wrote: If you have to inform people of the history, I'd say the history has little value. People want to know 1) What can they do with it, and 2) How many people are using it, in an effort to determine 3) Is it worth their time and effort to invest in it. Comparing Rev to something that is discontinued and unsupported doesn't substantiate any of the above. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
What this thread needs is Scotch. Oh, and cheese ;-) Judy On Tue, 1 Dec 2009, Richmond Mathewson wrote: Cripes! Aspirin, quick, somebody. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Wensleydale? On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Judy Perry wrote: > What this thread needs is Scotch. > > Oh, and cheese ;-) > > Judy > > > On Tue, 1 Dec 2009, Richmond Mathewson wrote: > > Cripes! Aspirin, quick, somebody. >> > ___ > use-revolution mailing list > use-revolution@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution > ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Wow, I just found this post. So I will respond. I say what I believe. Period. I haven't, in this case heard anything that would lead me to change anything I have written in this thread (except typos of course). I would send that ticket. Just as I said. I would have that person watch people using run-rev. I would give him full access to all employees and customers. And directly, not through an intermediary. He would contact the users through this commons. Directly. Explaining his exploration, and how he was invited. No need for a middleman. Is this guy the right guy for such a project? I don't know. Maybe. If you see contradictions in the thread of my posts, maybe it is because you still don't understand my original point. Are you that "good soldier" who doesn't see the possibility of respecting your country and criticizing it at the same time? Respect is an eyes wide open prospect, or it isn't worth the title. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Oak-smoked or mature, please :-) Judy On Tue, 1 Dec 2009, Kay C Lan wrote: Wensleydale? On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Judy Perry wrote: What this thread needs is Scotch. Oh, and cheese ;-) ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
In line with this thread, it would have to be smoked;-) On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 4:50 PM, Judy Perry wrote: > Oak-smoked or mature, please :-) > > Judy > > > On Tue, 1 Dec 2009, Kay C Lan wrote: > > Wensleydale? >> >> On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Judy Perry > >wrote: >> >> What this thread needs is Scotch. >>> >>> Oh, and cheese ;-) >>> >> ___ > use-revolution mailing list > use-revolution@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution > ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re-2: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Dear all, please, could we close this thread and come back to more important things? Matthias Original Message Subject: RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone? (30-Nov-2009 18:15) From:Randall Reetz To: runrev260...@m-r-d.de > I mean ANY form of loyalty. ALL LOYALTY is based on the perception of > belonging which is always defined by exclusivity. It is the friendly face > put on every negative trait exhibited by humans: nepitism, racism, sexism, > religious and every other form of superiority. Nobody joins a group to > assert their equality with those not of the group. Though we are often > fooled, cool-aid is cool-aid, no matter how long it has been aged. A > simple commitment to truth is a much more moral (fair) alternative. That > and compassion. > > It would be instructive here to place run-rev in historical and > genealogical perspective. In 1987 apple introduced a product based on the > genius of smalltalk that it called hypercard. A few years later, when > apple failed to keep hypercard modern, supercard brought color to the xtalk > family. When supercard ignored the other platforms (windows and unix), > metacard came to the rescue. What back-room finagleing prompted the > metacard people to change their name to "run time revolution" the single > most awkward product name in the history of product names, god only knows. > But here we are. And it is good to remember that the real genius of the > entire lineage of programming tools was based upon the insights of two men, > alan kay (smalltalk, objects and message passing) and bill atkinson (the > simplification of the object stack to a few predefined layers, and a > wysiwyg interface). Nothing done since has been anything but standard > version, product management, and customer relations. Not to diminish the > importance of or difficulty keeping a product current and supporting > customers, but the real value of xtalk IP was handed free of charge to > everyone after apple and owes much to the work of alan kay 30 years earlier. > > > Lets keep some perspective here. If rev wants loyalty, then at the very > least they should share it with the guys who invented all of the stuff it > brags about in its sales pitches. Cause almost none of it was naively > derived at "run time revolution". > > randall___ > use-revolution mailing list > use-revolution@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution > > > > > To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re-2: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
PLEASE close this thread ! ! ! ! Matthias Original Message Subject: RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone? (01-Dez-2009 9:42) From:Randall Reetz To: runrev260...@m-r-d.de > Wow, I just found this post. So I will respond. > > I say what I believe. Period. I haven't, in this case heard anything that > would lead me to change anything I have written in this thread (except > typos of course). I would send that ticket. Just as I said. I would > have that person watch people using run-rev. I would give him full access > to all employees and customers. And directly, not through an intermediary. > He would contact the users through this commons. Directly. Explaining > his exploration, and how he was invited. No need for a middleman. Is this > guy the right guy for such a project? I don't know. Maybe. If you see > contradictions in the thread of my posts, maybe it is because you still don' > t understand my original point. Are you that "good soldier" who doesn't > see the possibility of respecting your country and criticizing it at the > same time? Respect is an eyes wide open prospect, or it isn't worth the > title.___ > use-revolution mailing list > use-revolution@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution > > > > > To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Apologies (was RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?)
> I am simply and obviously questioning > the integrity of the original intent of the original post in > this thread (coming as it did from a paid employee charged > with customer relations no less). But mostly my comments are > general and concern the slow but steady disregard of > integrity as a general concept and contract of social > behavior. Questioning the integrity of an individual isn't nice either, though. I grow very weary of judgements, sarcasms, name calling, snapping at people without pause for thought, revenge snipes and other negativity - from others and the weight of the times Ive done it myself. This has been a hard, hard year for many. Going into the last month of 2009, year of true economic hardship for so many, I hold hope for a better 2010 for all - friends, colleagues, even competitors. Im going do my best in December and 2010 to not indulge in negativisms. With that, Id like to apologize to everyone who I have treated roughly and without proper respect over the last several years. I don't know how many times Ive met people Ive sniped at before (on the list), and later at a RevCon found out what nice folks people really are. Best regards, Lynn Fredricks President Paradigma Software http://www.paradigmasoft.com Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Re-2: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Oh, come on, we're just getting to the cheese and crackers;-) On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 5:00 PM, wrote: > PLEASE close this thread ! ! ! ! > > Matthias > > > Original Message ---- > Subject: RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone? (01-Dez-2009 9:42) > From:Randall Reetz > To: runrev260...@m-r-d.de > > > Wow, I just found this post. So I will respond. > > > > I say what I believe. Period. I haven't, in this case heard anything > that > > would lead me to change anything I have written in this thread (except > > typos of course). I would send that ticket. Just as I said. I would > > have that person watch people using run-rev. I would give him full > access > > to all employees and customers. And directly, not through an > intermediary. > > He would contact the users through this commons. Directly. Explaining > > his exploration, and how he was invited. No need for a middleman. Is > this > > guy the right guy for such a project? I don't know. Maybe. If you see > > contradictions in the thread of my posts, maybe it is because you still > don' > > t understand my original point. Are you that "good soldier" who doesn't > > see the possibility of respecting your country and criticizing it at the > > same time? Respect is an eyes wide open prospect, or it isn't worth the > > title.___ > > use-revolution mailing list > > use-revolution@lists.runrev.com > > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > > subscription preferences: > > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution > > > > > > > > > > To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com > > > ___ > use-revolution mailing list > use-revolution@lists.runrev.com > Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your > subscription preferences: > http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution > ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
[Thread Dead] Re: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?
Right well guys, I can see that we have had enough of this thread! As you all know, politics, religion and cheese are banned from being discussed on this list. Just for the record, in case Sarah is feeling uncomfortable, I think it was me he called slimy (by implication, if not directly). You all know who I am, and who I work for, and my post made no attempt to conceal that. I certainly have a great deal of loyalty for RunRev, and I'm flattered Randall thinks we have built a customer service machine second to none - we do try! If I see something I think the folks here would be interested in that is clearly related to Rev, it doesn't seem to me that the majority have any problem with me posting it for debate. An invitation to be polite is merely that... I wouldn't dream of trying to tell any of you what to think or say about us! Doomed to failure ;) But I am entitled to my own, well informed and long held opinion. Since I actually work for the company, and have done for over 10 years now, I can tell you that a more dedicated, hard working, genuine, and committed bunch of people would be hard to find anywhere. Well worth my loyalty. Since I have daily contact with a wide range of the actual users and customers of the company, I can also tell you that you are as a whole a fantastic community, and I'm proud to call many of you my friends. I can also tell you that I see the positive effects of the software we produce daily, and the way it enables people to achieve their aims, both expert programmers and those that do not consider themselves programmers at all. If anyone finds that slimy, or doubts that it is genuine, well, that's a shame. Warm Regards, Heather PS This thread is dead. Do not reply to it. Any further postings on the subject will invite the poster being put on moderation, and since my workload at present is extremely heavy, they can expect to wait several weeks before I find time to sift and approve any moderated postings. On 1 Dec 2009, at 08:25, Kay C Lan wrote: Wensleydale? On Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Judy Perry wrote: What this thread needs is Scotch. Oh, and cheese ;-) Judy On Tue, 1 Dec 2009, Richmond Mathewson wrote: Cripes! Aspirin, quick, somebody. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution Heather Nagey Customer Services Manager http://www.runrev.com/ RunRev - Software construction for everyone follow me on twitter http://www.twitter.com/lainopik ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Apologies (was RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?)
On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Lynn Fredricks wrote: Id like to apologize to everyone who I have treated roughly and without proper respect over the last several years. Reciprocated. ;-) -- Troy RPSystems, Ltd. http://www.rpsystems.net ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Apologies (was RE: Interesting blog post - comments anyone?)
On 11/30/09 10:20 PM, Troy Rollins wrote: On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:08 PM, Lynn Fredricks wrote: Id like to apologize to everyone who I have treated roughly and without proper respect over the last several years. Reciprocated. ;-) Well, I'll look a real heel if I don't bow my head here as well . . . :) Richmond. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
