Re: Creepy

[Colin Holgate]

On Jul 1, 2009, at 10:54 AM, Shari wrote:

David Bovill, for example.  David Bovill pops up as a potential  
friend, someone I might know.


How does it know that?



Click on the name link, and you'll see a page of info, which will  
include a list of mutual friends. I think the system sees that you  
both have the same friends, and so maybe you know each other.


You can also search for any name. Like now, I tried Craig Newman, and  
the first in the list looked like him, but I could click on his name  
and see that we had a mutual friend. So now I'm sure it's him, and so  
I've sent a Friend invite. He'll be no doubt confused by that...



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Re: Creepy

[Jim Sims]

On Jul 1, 2009, at 5:02 PM, Colin Holgate wrote:

Click on the name link, and you'll see a page of info, which will  
include a list of mutual friends. I think the system sees that you  
both have the same friends, and so maybe you know each other.


You can also search for any name. Like now, I tried Craig Newman,  
and the first in the list looked like him, but I could click on his  
name and see that we had a mutual friend. So now I'm sure it's him,  
and so I've sent a Friend invite. He'll be no doubt confused by  
that...


Hmmm...  I typed in Colin Holgate and I see two guys - one is wearing  
white/pink bunny ears. Colin, we gotta talk about this behavior of  
yours   :-P



sims




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Re: Creepy

[Colin Holgate]

On Jul 1, 2009, at 11:11 AM, Jim Sims wrote:

Hmmm...  I typed in Colin Holgate and I see two guys - one is  
wearing white/pink bunny ears. Colin, we gotta talk about this  
behavior of yours   :-P


There are four matches, I'm the top one, not the Liverpool fan or the  
bunny ears guy. Or the one from Sheffield. The image is my XBox 360  
Avatar.



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Re: Creepy

[Shari]

Click on the name link, and you'll see a page of info, which will 
include a list of mutual friends. I think the system sees that you 
both have the same friends, and so maybe you know each other.


You can also search for any name. Like now, I tried Craig Newman, 
and the first in the list looked like him, but I could click on his 
name and see that we had a mutual friend. So now I'm sure it's him, 
and so I've sent a Friend invite. He'll be no doubt confused by 
that...


I don't have any friends yet.  I've not gotten that far.  I've not 
entered any info, schools, groups, anything.  Yet it has this 
list of folks that I really do know or have communicated with in the 
past.


Seriously creepy.  Yet apparently socially acceptable.  Big Brother 
must be loving this!  (Slinks into my bunker peering out unto the 
world with a periscope...)


I mean it's really cool in one way to be able to find folks that 
easily.  But... wow!


I'm assuming that there's a long, long list past the first list and 
all of you are on it.


Shari
--
  Dogs and bears, sports and cars, and patriots t-shirts
  http://www.gityasome.com
 WlND0WS and MAClNT0SH shareware
 http://www.gypsyware.com
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Re: Creepy

[dunbarx]

Who's Colin?
--Original Message--
From: Colin Holgate
Sender: use-revolution-boun...@lists.runrev.com
To: How to use Revolution
ReplyTo: How to use Revolution
Subject: Re: Creepy
Sent: Jul 1, 2009 11:02 AM


On Jul 1, 2009, at 10:54 AM, Shari wrote:

> David Bovill, for example.  David Bovill pops up as a potential  
> friend, someone I might know.
>
> How does it know that?


Click on the name link, and you'll see a page of info, which will  
include a list of mutual friends. I think the system sees that you  
both have the same friends, and so maybe you know each other.

You can also search for any name. Like now, I tried Craig Newman, and  
the first in the list looked like him, but I could click on his name  
and see that we had a mutual friend. So now I'm sure it's him, and so  
I've sent a Friend invite. He'll be no doubt confused by that...


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Re: Creepy

[Mark Wieder]

Shari-

I believe Facebook by default uses your computer's address book.
Anyone in your address book who already has a FB account comes up as a
match and is a potential friend, anyone who doesn't already have an
account is a target for an invitation. It's clever technology and
invasive and annoying. This has come up before when listservs get
spammed inadvertently when new users setting up FB accounts select the
default settings and invitations are sent to everyone in their address
books. It's why I stay far, far away from Facebook.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net

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Re: Creepy

[Klaus on-rev]

Hi Shari,


I've been playing hookie for awhile, ...


thanks to: 
I learned a new and obviously VERY amercian word today :-)


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
http://www.major-k.de
kl...@major.on-rev.com

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RE: Creepy

[Randall Reetz]

Isnt it just a little ironic that you want to use facebook to spam people you 
know, but you find something creepy about facebook doing the same thing to you?

-Original Message-
From: "Shari" 
To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
Sent: 7/1/2009 7:54 AM
Subject: Creepy

I've been playing hookie for awhile, Richard Gaskin, yes I did answer 
you, did you receive?

Here's what's creepy.  I'm attempting to create a Facebook account 
(yes, this is revelant to the forum...) because someone turned me 
onto a really cool marketing thing you can do with it.

I'm not set up fully yet but there's this long list of potential 
friends.  Add Friends, with names and pictures.  At first I thought 
it was like MySpace, Tom etc. some bunches of folks that look for 
newbies.  Then I realized that some of the names were familiar.

David Bovill, for example.  David Bovill pops up as a potential 
friend, someone I might know.

How does it know that?  How the heck does it know that?  How does it 
know about you guys?  I haven't put any info in except my name and 
birthdate.  Nothing else.  I was thinking maybe it does an internet 
search of forums I'm in or something.

Then I see that it lists folks I've sold software to.  My customer 
list.  Say whaaat?

As I type this I'm thinking that somehow it's seeing my saved emails. 
That's the only explanation for it.  That's scary.  Big Brother.  I 
can see Big Brother wanting a piece of it.  Geez Louise!

I'm waffling.  I really want access to this cool marketing tool.  But 
lordy!  Read an article in Wired magazine just the other day about 
the war between Facebook and Google for internet dominance, and how 
Facebook might win.  I believe it!

Shari

-- 
   Dogs and bears, sports and cars, and patriots t-shirts
   http://www.gityasome.com
  WlND0WS and MAClNT0SH shareware
  http://www.gypsyware.com
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Re: Creepy

[Jeff Reynolds]

Sheri,

it is using your address book. when i had to get into facebook for  
some clients work i registered under a nome de plume of buckaroo  
banzai (not sposta do that but i have never been caught by the  
facebook cops). unfortunately i screwed up one time in there fiddling  
with things and my main email address got listed with the account  
instead of my throw away address is has set it up with. i started  
getting friends finding me then as they joined even though my real  
name is not attached at all with the account...


I have still found facebook of very little use. i have clients who  
have followings in the thousands for their causes, but when i ask them  
if any of their notices, posting, or other broadcasts to these  
followers have resulted in any major reactions, actions, fund raising,  
etc, the answer is always a shy 'no'...


the auto searching of address books is not good.

cheers

jeff


On Jul 1, 2009, at 1:00 PM, use-revolution-requ...@lists.runrev.com  
wrote:



I believe Facebook by default uses your computer's address book.
Anyone in your address book who already has a FB account comes up as a
match and is a potential friend, anyone who doesn't already have an
account is a target for an invitation. It's clever technology and
invasive and annoying. This has come up before when listservs get
spammed inadvertently when new users setting up FB accounts select the
default settings and invitations are sent to everyone in their address
books. It's why I stay far, far away from Facebook.


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Re: Creepy

[Richard Gaskin]

Shari wrote:
> I've been playing hookie for awhile, Richard Gaskin, yes I did answer
> you, did you receive?

Yes I did, thank you.  So nice to see you back here.


> Here's what's creepy.  I'm attempting to create a Facebook account
> (yes, this is revelant to the forum...) because someone turned me
> onto a really cool marketing thing you can do with it.
>
> I'm not set up fully yet but there's this long list of potential
> friends.

This is even creepier:

Mark Wieder wrote:
> I believe Facebook by default uses your computer's address book.

How does FaceBook obtain this information through the browser?

Sounds like a very serious security exposure in browsers.  After all, if 
FaceBook can do it, any site -- and any hacked site -- can do it too.



Randall Reetz wrote:
> Isnt it just a little ironic that you want to use facebook
> to spam people you know, but you find something creepy about
> facebook doing the same thing to you?

Not all marketing is spam.  Personally, I prefer to know the details of 
someone's marketing efforts before I'll risk labeling them as "spam".


Most things on FaceBook require voluntary confirmation to participate. 
For example, a good many companies have fan sites there, which require 
that folks explicitly join.  Even friend invitations require explicit 
confirmation from the user.


What's at play here appears to be something else: a Carnivore-style data 
mining to seek connections between people that extends beyond the bounds 
of the FaceBook system itself.


If indeed she'd never entered Rev among her interests in her profile, 
nor had yet added any friends through which the system might seek 
connections, this seems to me a bit creepy, and is just one more reason 
my FaceBook participation is very limited.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Revolution training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
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Re: Creepy

[Colin Holgate]

On Jul 1, 2009, at 2:09 PM, Jeff Reynolds wrote:



I have still found facebook of very little use.



You haven't found the Scrabble app then?

Seriously though, for professional contacts and the like there are  
other choices out there, such as LinkedIn.



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Re: Creepy

[Andre Garzia]

>
Hello Folks,
After a quick query on how facebook does its magic/voodoo, I come to
the following blurbs:

"It looks like what is happening is that you’ve chosen the “opt-in”
suggestion feature on Facebook. You might have blown past the checkbox
or maybe not have noticed it signing up but Facebook has a feature
that asks if it can scan your email address books (Yahoo, Gmail, etc.)
to find friends in your address book that are also on FB, or to make
suggestions. Facebook, however, has no access to MySpace. That would
be like Target having access to Wal-Mart’s customer lists— by their
nature, MS and FB are competitors.
So, how did the picture of your friend end up on FB? Either she is on
there and you didn’t know, or someone else has her picture up there (a
mutual friend?), or you have a picture of her associated with her
email and FB “suggested” that you invite her to join.
Also, since the scan-your-address-book-for-friends feature is opt-in
on FB, you may want to change your account settings to exclude that
option. However, since a scan has already been performed, it may be a
bit after the fact.
Hope this helps!"

and this one:

"Sorry for the delay, work has been a bear in the IT world the last
two weeks. Ok, to check and see if FB grabbed your email address book
(and it does grab the address book associated with the email addy you
use to sign up UNLESS you UNCHECK the box. Sneaky, eh?) you want to
sign in to your FB account and click on “Friends” at the top. None of
the dropdown choices, just the label “Friends” next to Profile. The
second option down should show what FB is scanning to look people up
and suggest folks to invite. Turn it off or opt out— I’m not 100% what
it says as I opted out from the get-go. Lemme know if you run into any
trouble…"

and that means that it does not read your computer address book
(javascript can't access that, I think flash can't access that either,
if it can, then it's a configurable option, I am sure). What FB
appears to be doing is accessing your email account and scraping for
your online address book there.

Ok, this is also creepy, I am now, officially worried.

:-/


>
> Mark Wieder wrote:
> > I believe Facebook by default uses your computer's address book.
>
> How does FaceBook obtain this information through the browser?
>
> Sounds like a very serious security exposure in browsers.  After all, if 
> FaceBook can do it, any site -- and any hacked site -- can do it too.

--
http://www.andregarzia.com All We Do Is Code.
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Re: Creepy

[Richard Gaskin]

Andre Garzia wrote:
> Hello Folks,
> After a quick query on how facebook does its magic/voodoo, I come to
> the following blurbs:
>
> "It looks like what is happening is that you’ve chosen the “opt-in”
> suggestion feature on Facebook. You might have blown past the checkbox
> or maybe not have noticed it signing up but Facebook has a feature
> that asks if it can scan your email address books (Yahoo, Gmail, etc.)
> to find friends in your address book that are also on FB, or to make
> suggestions.
> ...

Comforting to know it's not a browser exploit digging into our hard 
drives, but it raises a question of the security decision-making at 
Yahoo, gMail, etc.:


How can a web site like FaceBook dig into your address book at those 
other sites without requiring your passwords for those sites?


Do Yahoo, Google, etc. just give free access to FaceBook and potentially 
anyone else willing to pony up whatever those mail companies ask for 
such access?


Weird stuff.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Revolution training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
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Re: Creepy

[J. Landman Gay]

Jim Sims wrote:

Hmmm...  I typed in Colin Holgate and I see two guys - one is wearing 
white/pink bunny ears. Colin, we gotta talk about this behavior of 
yours   :-P


That's just how he looks...

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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RE: Creepy

[Lynn Fredricks]

> Comforting to know it's not a browser exploit digging into 
> our hard drives, but it raises a question of the security 
> decision-making at Yahoo, gMail, etc.:
> 
> How can a web site like FaceBook dig into your address book 
> at those other sites without requiring your passwords for those sites?
> 
> Do Yahoo, Google, etc. just give free access to FaceBook and 
> potentially anyone else willing to pony up whatever those 
> mail companies ask for such access?

I believe at some point, you are asked if you want to "find your friends" on
various e-services. I recall something about this, also other platforms
using something similar, like NING.

They've all set up sharing APIs that require permission to be granted. Once
it sucks in your data though - its in their system and likely not removable.
There are more and more "validation" methods being used across apps. If you
have a Wordpress based blog for example, there's a plugin that lets you
utilize Facebook Connect for validating commenters. It is very easy to set
up. You've ceded access control though.

I think this all boils down to the problem, esp in the USA, that you do not
"own" your own information. Ive met reps from many Web 2.0 type companies
that openly tell me that its all about owning the customer information, and
giving away use of all sorts of great applications is targeted towards
acquiring this information for ongoing exploitation - targeted ads, direct
mail marketing and the like.

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Paradigma Software
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server 


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Re: Creepy

[François Chaplais]

Le 1 juil. 09 à 22:06, Lynn Fredricks a écrit :





I believe at some point, you are asked if you want to "find your  
friends" on
various e-services. I recall something about this, also other  
platforms

using something similar, like NING.

They've all set up sharing APIs that require permission to be  
granted. Once
it sucks in your data though - its in their system and likely not  
removable.
There are more and more "validation" methods being used across apps.  
If you
have a Wordpress based blog for example, there's a plugin that lets  
you
utilize Facebook Connect for validating commenters. It is very easy  
to set

up. You've ceded access control though.

I think this all boils down to the problem, esp in the USA, that you  
do not
"own" your own information. Ive met reps from many Web 2.0 type  
companies
that openly tell me that its all about owning the customer  
information, and

giving away use of all sorts of great applications is targeted towards
acquiring this information for ongoing exploitation - targeted ads,  
direct

mail marketing and the like.

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Paradigma Software
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server



there are very few "free" things in this world. First time I heard  
about gmail, I thought of it as a free dose from a drug dealer (not  
that I am familiar with this kind of people).
Every time somebody writes something on this list, it's indexed by  
google. It may be a good thing, provided you protect what's valuable  
to you. Sometimes I think of internet as a huge orgy of information,  
with little protection.


1.5 cent.

François
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Re: Creepy

[Thomas McGrath III]

Shari,

Could it be from your email address? I searched it online and got  
about 398 results and a bunch are from list serves etc.


Data mining 


Tom

Tom McGrath III
Lazy River Software
3mcgr...@comcast.net

iTunes Library Suite - libITS
Information and download can be found on this page:
http://www.lazyriversoftware.com/RevOne.html



On Jul 1, 2009, at 11:17 AM, Shari wrote:

Click on the name link, and you'll see a page of info, which will  
include a list of mutual friends. I think the system sees that you  
both have the same friends, and so maybe you know each other.


You can also search for any name. Like now, I tried Craig Newman,  
and the first in the list looked like him, but I could click on his  
name and see that we had a mutual friend. So now I'm sure it's him,  
and so I've sent a Friend invite. He'll be no doubt confused by  
that...


I don't have any friends yet.  I've not gotten that far.  I've not  
entered any info, schools, groups, anything.  Yet it has this  
list of folks that I really do know or have communicated with in the  
past.


Seriously creepy.  Yet apparently socially acceptable.  Big Brother  
must be loving this!  (Slinks into my bunker peering out unto the  
world with a periscope...)


I mean it's really cool in one way to be able to find folks that  
easily.  But... wow!


I'm assuming that there's a long, long list past the first list and  
all of you are on it.


Shari
--
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 http://www.gityasome.com
WlND0WS and MAClNT0SH shareware
http://www.gypsyware.com
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Re: Creepy

[Brian Yennie]

Couldn't this be accounted for by the idea that your email address is  
in OTHER people's address books that have willingly shared them using  
the Friend Finder tool in Facebook?


We seem to be assuming that Facebook is automagically digging into  
your address book, when it could just be finding you in reverse from  
people that have already shared. This would actually seem more  
efficient, since while you may not share your address book, somebody  
else that knows you probably has...


FWIW.

Brian


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Re: Creepy

[Andre Garzia]

\o/

We Got A Winner :D

That Brian is a very good insight and makes everything even creepier!

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 6:02 PM, Brian Yennie wrote:
> Couldn't this be accounted for by the idea that your email address is in
> OTHER people's address books that have willingly shared them using the
> Friend Finder tool in Facebook?
>
> We seem to be assuming that Facebook is automagically digging into your
> address book, when it could just be finding you in reverse from people that
> have already shared. This would actually seem more efficient, since while
> you may not share your address book, somebody else that knows you probably
> has...
>
> FWIW.
>
> Brian
>
>
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Re: Creepy

[Kay C Lan]

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:06 AM, Lynn Fredricks <
lfredri...@proactive-intl.com> wrote:

>
> I think this all boils down to the problem, esp in the USA, that you do not
> "own" your own information.


Yes, it's quite surprising how few people knew that FaceBook changed their
Terms of Conditions recently to handover ALL content on FaceBook to them, to
use and 'rent' (loose term for make monetary gain out or your content) as
they saw fit, FOREVER!

http://www.javno.com/en-lifestyle/facebook-has-rights-to-your-pictures-forever_235012

It use to be that they could only do such whilst you held an open account.

Again, it's amazing how few people were aware that at least some people saw
this as inappropriate and kicked up enough stink to have the changes
revoked, ie they were completely unaware that their ToCs had changed twice
in the span of a couple of months.

This isn't creepy, it's more an indication of how few people on the planet
actual read the ENTIRE Terms of Conditions they agreed to because if they
did, these words might make them think twice:

to use, copy, publish, stream, store, retain, publicly perform or display,
transmit, scan, reformat, modify, edit, frame, translate, excerpt,
adapt, create
derivative works and distribute (through multiple tiers), any User Content you
(i) Post on or in connection with the Facebook Service or the promotion
thereof subject only to your privacy settings or (ii) enable a user to Post,
including by offering a Share Link on your website and (b) to use your name,
likeness and image for any purpose

Not a FaceBook user :-|
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Re: Creepy

[Shari]

Not finding this option.  Not seeing anywhere to 
opt in or out.  Pretty sure I would have seen a 
checkbox and not checked it, though, or unchecked 
it or whatever.


Under Friends, there are several options to help 
you find your friends.  One tells you to give 
your Email/Password (which I know I didn't do). 
Another has you uploading your contact file. 
(Never uploaded anything.)  The rest are various 
search methods.  It lists all the friends of my 
friends, school searches, IM searches, coworker 
searches.  The only ones I've partaken of is my 
high school (after it found all of you) and 
friends of friends to find the friends I missed.


Invite Friends has an option to Import Email 
Addresses and lists several common email sources, 
Hotmail, AOL, Gmail and Yahoo (none of which I 
use except for gmail, which I've only used to 
send reg codes to about 5 people when my emails 
didn't get thru the regular way).


I was reading an article in Wired magazine about 
Facebook and Google being in sort of a war for 
internet domination.  Facebook is doing a pretty 
good job catching up to Google and has a good 
chance of bypassing Google, according to the 
article.  Google is my best friend and does a lot 
of really good things for me.  I'd be pretty 
amiss to ignore the thing that's hot on it's 
tail.  Diddled with MySpace but really didn't see 
much value there.  Facebook, however... as long 
as I don't post information I don't want made 
public, seemed like it was worth checking into.


But the whole where did it find all those people 
issue, THAT scares me.  But I sure do know a lot 
of folks who are on it... I mean, it wouldn't 
have even found the folks if they didn't have 
Facebook accounts, right?


Shari




 >
Ok, to check and see if FB grabbed your email address book
(and it does grab the address book associated with the email addy you
use to sign up UNLESS you UNCHECK the box. Sneaky, eh?) you want to
sign in to your FB account and click on "Friends" at the top. None of
the dropdown choices, just the label "Friends" next to Profile. The
second option down should show what FB is scanning to look people up
and suggest folks to invite. Turn it off or opt out- I'm not 100% what
it says as I opted out from the get-go. Lemme know if you run into any
troubleŠ"




--
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  http://www.gityasome.com
 WlND0WS and MAClNT0SH shareware
 http://www.gypsyware.com
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Re: Creepy

[Shari]

Oh, the marketing tool that started it all was a virtual thing.  I 
design tshirts and apparently people do these virtual gift giving 
things.  Sort of like sending eCards and virtual flowers, now they 
are sending virtual gifts of all sorts.  You can allow your tshirts 
and things to be given as virtual gifts.  That's the thing I wanted 
access to.  A fellow in one of my tshirt forums said he had 1200 
people currently giving his virtual tshirts out.  And of course there 
is a link to his actual tshirt site... so he has a page on Facebook 
dedicated to his tshirts which are all one genre, and a fan wall, 
etc. where people of that genre can hang out.  You input different 
tshirts into it, and people try to collect them all, so the theory 
goes.  And THAT, my friends, is what got me interested in checking 
into Facebook.  Software has places like Download.com where you can 
list it.  Tshirts are a bit more challenging, beyond having a web 
page.

--
  Dogs and bears, sports and cars, and patriots t-shirts
  http://www.gityasome.com
 WlND0WS and MAClNT0SH shareware
 http://www.gypsyware.com
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Re: Creepy

[Bernard Devlin]

Not being on facebook, linked-in, myspace, etc. I decided to sign up
to the former and see what happens.  I signed up with a brand new
email address (I often use site-specific email addresses).

In step 2 of the signup process they ask for one's email address and
the password to access that. I'm assuming they are expecting all/most
people to be using webmail.  One can however 'skip this step' (in a
very small font).  I skipped every step.  By the time the signup was
complete, facebook told me I had 0 friends.

When I did a search for various friends and relatives, it only found
less than 1/3rd that I could recognize, and I only recognized them
because they had photos up or because they included something in their
summary personal info that identified them (university/small home
town).

Searching by former school/university was more successful, although I
would say that only about 5% of my classmates are on facebook.  I
spent time at multiple universities, and  searching for people I
recognized there was too tiresome to continue.

But fundamentally, I wouldn't say the thing was creepy.  It seems most
people I know are avoiding facebook, or if they are on there they've
suitablly restricted the information they publicly expose.

My guess is that the creepiness arises from allowing facebook to look
through one's email account and/or using the same email address on
facebook that one uses everywhere else.

Bernard

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:47 AM, Shari wrote:
> Not finding this option.  Not seeing anywhere to opt in or out.  Pretty sure
> I would have seen a checkbox and not checked it, though, or unchecked it or
> whatever.
>
> Under Friends, there are several options to help you find your friends.  One
> tells you to give your Email/Password (which I know I didn't do). Another
> has you uploading your contact file. (Never uploaded anything.)  The rest
> are various search methods.  It lists all the friends of my friends, school
> searches, IM searches, coworker searches.  The only ones I've partaken of is
> my high school (after it found all of you) and friends of friends to find
> the friends I missed.
>
> Invite Friends has an option to Import Email Addresses and lists several
> common email sources, Hotmail, AOL, Gmail and Yahoo (none of which I use
> except for gmail, which I've only used to send reg codes to about 5 people
> when my emails didn't get thru the regular way).
>
> I was reading an article in Wired magazine about Facebook and Google being
> in sort of a war for internet domination.  Facebook is doing a pretty good
> job catching up to Google and has a good chance of bypassing Google,
> according to the article.  Google is my best friend and does a lot of really
> good things for me.  I'd be pretty amiss to ignore the thing that's hot on
> it's tail.  Diddled with MySpace but really didn't see much value there.
>  Facebook, however... as long as I don't post information I don't want made
> public, seemed like it was worth checking into.
>
> But the whole where did it find all those people issue, THAT scares me.  But
> I sure do know a lot of folks who are on it... I mean, it wouldn't have even
> found the folks if they didn't have Facebook accounts, right?
>
> Shari
>
>
>
>>  >
>> Ok, to check and see if FB grabbed your email address book
>> (and it does grab the address book associated with the email addy you
>> use to sign up UNLESS you UNCHECK the box. Sneaky, eh?) you want to
>> sign in to your FB account and click on "Friends" at the top. None of
>> the dropdown choices, just the label "Friends" next to Profile. The
>> second option down should show what FB is scanning to look people up
>> and suggest folks to invite. Turn it off or opt out- I'm not 100% what
>> it says as I opted out from the get-go. Lemme know if you run into any
>> troubleŠ"
>>
>
>
> --
>  Dogs and bears, sports and cars, and patriots t-shirts
>  http://www.gityasome.com
>  WlND0WS and MAClNT0SH shareware
>  http://www.gypsyware.com
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Re: Creepy

[Luis]

On 1 Jul 2009, at 21:28, François Chaplais wrote:



Every time somebody writes something on this list, it's indexed by  
google. It may be a good thing, provided you protect what's  
valuable to you. Sometimes I think of internet as a huge orgy of  
information, with little protection.




You can read s much into that last sentence. Classic. That's a  
keeper!


Cheers,

Luis.

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Re: Creepy

[Shari]

You can read s much into that last sentence. Classic. That's a keeper!

Cheers,

Luis.


I think therein lies the key.  Protecting what's valuable.  Because I 
have an online business, several actually, my email is widespread.  I 
don't use different emails for different things because that became 
too confusing.  I know a lot of folks do, though.  I rely on my 
Procmail filters heavily to weed out the incoming junk.  And my host 
helps, too.


I always try to remember that whatever I post is actually public 
info.  Whether it be here, Facebook, mySpace, my web pages, Google 
groups, wherever.


People have gotten fired from jobs over stuff they posted online. 
I've seen people post things where it was "what were you thinking"? 
Usually young folks on mySpace, LOL!


Another thing, I never click on email attachments unless I'm 
specifically expecting something, like a screenshot or photos from a 
friend.  I don't even open forwards, no matter who sends them.  All 
the cutsie things, dancing chipmunks, whatever it is people send each 
other to, I don't do it.  I know most of the folks sending them to me 
are not very knowledgeble about using protection and get a lot of 
diseases.  You try to tell them but...


Yup, the internet needs a dispenser on the wall where people can hit 
a button and get their protections.  It's an epidemic!  :D


Shari
--
  Dogs and bears, sports and cars, and patriots t-shirts
  http://www.gityasome.com
 WlND0WS and MAClNT0SH shareware
 http://www.gypsyware.com
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Re: Creepy

[Kay C Lan]

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 9:59 PM, Shari  wrote:

>
> I always try to remember that whatever I post is actually public info.
>  Whether it be here, Facebook, mySpace, my web pages, Google groups,
> wherever.
>
> That is an extremely sensible attitude to take. What you may not appreciate
is what other people are doing to take advantage of the fact that *
everything* on the web is pretty well open for public consumption.

Check out this Livestream presentation. The bit that is of interest starts
at 12:50 and runs through to about 21:00 - once you go to the link and press
play and it loads, press pause and move the 'time readout' to 12:50 and then
press play again - save yourself 12 min of listening.

This link should all be on one line:

http://www.livestream.com/denlive/ondemand/pla_3982760579168982080?initthumburl=http://mogulus-user-files.s3.amazonaws.com/chdenlive/2009/06/29/17a7a02e-a2ea-4d88-8444-edc437236e5f_2100.jpg&playeraspectwidth=4&playeraspectheight=3

Basically it shows how you as an individual can save yourself an enormous
amount of time by using the work (bloggs, bookmarks, keywords) of others to
direct you to the online information that is highly relevant to you.

Enjoy.
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RE: Creepy 2020

[Randall Reetz]

I still think it ironic that we are intolerant of governments and corporations 
when they engage in behaviors we excuse in our selves.  How many people go to 
church or get their kids in a soccer league or enroll them in a private school 
specifically to gain access to the "right" group of potential customers?  
FaceBook et al are just providing to that same demand.  Yes it is creepy... how 
humans act towards their "friends".   Everyone wants the "networking" 
advantages afforded by a company that mines personal data.  Nobody likes to 
know how that data is aquired when it comes to their own identity.  Really 
creepy is the vailed astonishment expressed as the nessisary "wizard of oz" is 
revealed to be just what our greed demands of him.  The perfect reflection of 
us!  I live in Palo Alto, and have listened in on hundreds of facebook employee 
cafe conversations.  Souls not required.  It is one thing to be a slimy 
insurance salesman... quite another to institutionalize and automate this most 
tragic of human tendancies... and to make a killing doing so.  The edifice that 
is socil networking software tends to depersonalize and infrastructurealize 
sleezyness.  "Hey, everyone is driving drunk!", becomes, "If we arent supposed 
to drive drunk, why is there a beer tap right here on the dash board?"

-Original Message-
From: "Lynn Fredricks" 
To: "'How to use Revolution'" 
Sent: 7/1/2009 3:14 PM
Subject: Creepy 2020

> We seem to be assuming that Facebook is automagically digging 
> into your address book, when it could just be finding you in 
> reverse from people that have already shared. This would 
> actually seem more efficient, since while you may not share 
> your address book, somebody else that knows you probably has...

This creepy privacy invasion thread makes me think of the various ways
Google snaps up information - by car and of course by satelite. Maybe in a
few years we will see robot wars between the Google Car, Yahoo Refuse Digger
and Facebook Roto Rooter - all fighting each other to get the last bit of
our private information :-)

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Paradigma Software
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server 


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Re: Creepy 2020

[stephen barncard]

And what's your Facebook username?

-
Stephen Barncard
San Francisco
http://barncard.com


2009/7/1 Randall Reetz 

> I still think it ironic that we are intolerant of governments and
> corporations when they engage in behaviors we excuse in our selves.  How
> many people go to church or get their kids in a soccer league or enroll them
> in a private school specifically to gain access to the "right" group of
> potential customers?  FaceBook et al are just providing to that same demand.
>  Yes it is creepy... how humans act towards their "friends".   Everyone
> wants the "networking" advantages afforded by a company that mines personal
> data.  Nobody likes to know how that data is aquired when it comes to their
> own identity.  Really creepy is the vailed astonishment expressed as the
> nessisary "wizard of oz" is revealed to be just what our greed demands of
> him.  The perfect reflection of us!  I live in Palo Alto, and have listened
> in on hundreds of facebook employee cafe conversations.  Souls not required.
>  It is one thing to be a slimy insurance salesman... quite another to
> institutionalize and automate this most tragic of human tendancies... and to
> make a killing doing so.  The edifice that is socil networking software
> tends to depersonalize and infrastructurealize sleezyness.  "Hey, everyone
> is driving drunk!", becomes, "If we arent supposed to drive drunk, why is
> there a beer tap right here on the dash board?"
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "Lynn Fredricks" 
> To: "'How to use Revolution'" 
> Sent: 7/1/2009 3:14 PM
> Subject: Creepy 2020
>
> > We seem to be assuming that Facebook is automagically digging
> > into your address book, when it could just be finding you in
> > reverse from people that have already shared. This would
> > actually seem more efficient, since while you may not share
> > your address book, somebody else that knows you probably has...
>
> This creepy privacy invasion thread makes me think of the various ways
> Google snaps up information - by car and of course by satelite. Maybe in a
> few years we will see robot wars between the Google Car, Yahoo Refuse
> Digger
> and Facebook Roto Rooter - all fighting each other to get the last bit of
> our private information :-)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lynn Fredricks
> President
> Paradigma Software
> http://www.paradigmasoft.com
>
> Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server
>
>
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Re: Creepy 2020

[stephen barncard]

I was joking

-
Stephen Barncard
San Francisco
http://barncard.com


2009/7/1 stephen barncard 

> And what's your Facebook username?
>
> -
> Stephen Barncard
> San Francisco
> http://barncard.com
>
>
> 2009/7/1 Randall Reetz 
>
> I still think it ironic that we are intolerant of governments and
>> corporations when they engage in behaviors we excuse in our selves.  How
>> many people go to church or get their kids in a soccer league or enroll them
>> in a private school specifically to gain access to the "right" group of
>> potential customers?  FaceBook et al are just providing to that same demand.
>>  Yes it is creepy... how humans act towards their "friends".   Everyone
>> wants the "networking" advantages afforded by a company that mines personal
>> data.  Nobody likes to know how that data is aquired when it comes to their
>> own identity.  Really creepy is the vailed astonishment expressed as the
>> nessisary "wizard of oz" is revealed to be just what our greed demands of
>> him.  The perfect reflection of us!  I live in Palo Alto, and have listened
>> in on hundreds of facebook employee cafe conversations.  Souls not required.
>>  It is one thing to be a slimy insurance salesman... quite another to
>> institutionalize and automate this most tragic of human tendancies... and to
>> make a killing doing so.  The edifice that is socil networking software
>> tends to depersonalize and infrastructurealize sleezyness.  "Hey, everyone
>> is driving drunk!", becomes, "If we arent supposed to drive drunk, why is
>> there a beer tap right here on the dash board?"
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: "Lynn Fredricks" 
>> To: "'How to use Revolution'" 
>> Sent: 7/1/2009 3:14 PM
>> Subject: Creepy 2020
>>
>> > We seem to be assuming that Facebook is automagically digging
>> > into your address book, when it could just be finding you in
>> > reverse from people that have already shared. This would
>> > actually seem more efficient, since while you may not share
>> > your address book, somebody else that knows you probably has...
>>
>> This creepy privacy invasion thread makes me think of the various ways
>> Google snaps up information - by car and of course by satelite. Maybe in a
>> few years we will see robot wars between the Google Car, Yahoo Refuse
>> Digger
>> and Facebook Roto Rooter - all fighting each other to get the last bit of
>> our private information :-)
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Lynn Fredricks
>> President
>> Paradigma Software
>> http://www.paradigmasoft.com
>>
>> Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server
>>
>>
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>> subscription preferences:
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>
>
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RE: Creepy 2020

[Randall Reetz]

And yes i have a SpaceBook account.  Some kids set up my account for me at a 
cafe.  Same goes for MyFace.  Have logged in at most twenty times... trying to 
figure it all out and to figure out why it is so intoxicating to so many 
people.  I guess if you arent social networking you are actually "working".  
That's one answer. I should start a quantum social network where you "tweet" 
but are limited to one bit!  "0"

-Original Message-
From: "stephen barncard" 
To: "How to use Revolution" 
Sent: 7/1/2009 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: Creepy 2020

And what's your Facebook username?

-
Stephen Barncard
San Francisco
http://barncard.com


2009/7/1 Randall Reetz 

> I still think it ironic that we are intolerant of governments and
> corporations when they engage in behaviors we excuse in our selves.  How
> many people go to church or get their kids in a soccer league or enroll them
> in a private school specifically to gain access to the "right" group of
> potential customers?  FaceBook et al are just providing to that same demand.
>  Yes it is creepy... how humans act towards their "friends".   Everyone
> wants the "networking" advantages afforded by a company that mines personal
> data.  Nobody likes to know how that data is aquired when it comes to their
> own identity.  Really creepy is the vailed astonishment expressed as the
> nessisary "wizard of oz" is revealed to be just what our greed demands of
> him.  The perfect reflection of us!  I live in Palo Alto, and have listened
> in on hundreds of facebook employee cafe conversations.  Souls not required.
>  It is one thing to be a slimy insurance salesman... quite another to
> institutionalize and automate this most tragic of human tendancies... and to
> make a killing doing so.  The edifice that is socil networking software
> tends to depersonalize and infrastructurealize sleezyness.  "Hey, everyone
> is driving drunk!", becomes, "If we arent supposed to drive drunk, why is
> there a beer tap right here on the dash board?"
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "Lynn Fredricks" 
> To: "'How to use Revolution'" 
> Sent: 7/1/2009 3:14 PM
> Subject: Creepy 2020
>
> > We seem to be assuming that Facebook is automagically digging
> > into your address book, when it could just be finding you in
> > reverse from people that have already shared. This would
> > actually seem more efficient, since while you may not share
> > your address book, somebody else that knows you probably has...
>
> This creepy privacy invasion thread makes me think of the various ways
> Google snaps up information - by car and of course by satelite. Maybe in a
> few years we will see robot wars between the Google Car, Yahoo Refuse
> Digger
> and Facebook Roto Rooter - all fighting each other to get the last bit of
> our private information :-)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lynn Fredricks
> President
> Paradigma Software
> http://www.paradigmasoft.com
>
> Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server
>
>
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Re: Creepy 2020

[stephen barncard]

It all depends what one puts into it. I've reconnected with a staff of
characters from my former workplace and realized that job was one of the
best times (and the worst times too) of my life. I had shot many videos and
photos - which I was saving for my online bio - and used the excellent
gallery and video upload tools at Facebook.   Hey it's Facebook's hard drive
and their bandwidth, why not.  And the group liked it very much and wanted
more. We may have a reunion in a few months.
I didn't
know for what purpose exactly I shot the video, but it all survived
and found a place there ( and not you tube).

The comments that come
back are worth it.  And since most of the 'friends' have some kind of
connection to
one's own reality, the system works pretty well. I haven't seen any hecklers
where I hang out. A lot of attitude but it's friendly so far.



-
Stephen Barncard
San Francisco
http://barncard.com


2009/7/1 Randall Reetz 

> And yes i have a SpaceBook account.  Some kids set up my account for me at
> a cafe.  Same goes for MyFace.  Have logged in at most twenty times...
> trying to figure it all out and to figure out why it is so intoxicating to
> so many people.  I guess if you arent social networking you are actually
> "working".  That's one answer. I should start a quantum social network where
> you "tweet" but are limited to one bit!  "0"
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "stephen barncard" 
> To: "How to use Revolution" 
> Sent: 7/1/2009 4:53 PM
> Subject: Re: Creepy 2020
>
> And what's your Facebook username?
>
> -
> Stephen Barncard
> San Francisco
> http://barncard.com
>
>
> 2009/7/1 Randall Reetz 
>
> > I still think it ironic that we are intolerant of governments and
> > corporations when they engage in behaviors we excuse in our selves.  How
> > many people go to church or get their kids in a soccer league or enroll
> them
> > in a private school specifically to gain access to the "right" group of
> > potential customers?  FaceBook et al are just providing to that same
> demand.
> >  Yes it is creepy... how humans act towards their "friends".   Everyone
> > wants the "networking" advantages afforded by a company that mines
> personal
> > data.  Nobody likes to know how that data is aquired when it comes to
> their
> > own identity.  Really creepy is the vailed astonishment expressed as the
> > nessisary "wizard of oz" is revealed to be just what our greed demands of
> > him.  The perfect reflection of us!  I live in Palo Alto, and have
> listened
> > in on hundreds of facebook employee cafe conversations.  Souls not
> required.
> >  It is one thing to be a slimy insurance salesman... quite another to
> > institutionalize and automate this most tragic of human tendancies... and
> to
> > make a killing doing so.  The edifice that is socil networking software
> > tends to depersonalize and infrastructurealize sleezyness.  "Hey,
> everyone
> > is driving drunk!", becomes, "If we arent supposed to drive drunk, why is
> > there a beer tap right here on the dash board?"
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: "Lynn Fredricks" 
> > To: "'How to use Revolution'" 
> > Sent: 7/1/2009 3:14 PM
> > Subject: Creepy 2020
> >
> > > We seem to be assuming that Facebook is automagically digging
> > > into your address book, when it could just be finding you in
> > > reverse from people that have already shared. This would
> > > actually seem more efficient, since while you may not share
> > > your address book, somebody else that knows you probably has...
> >
> > This creepy privacy invasion thread makes me think of the various ways
> > Google snaps up information - by car and of course by satelite. Maybe in
> a
> > few years we will see robot wars between the Google Car, Yahoo Refuse
> > Digger
> > and Facebook Roto Rooter - all fighting each other to get the last bit of
> > our private information :-)
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Lynn Fredricks
> > President
> > Paradigma Software
> > http://www.paradigmasoft.com
> >
> > Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server
> >
> >
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Re: Creepy 2020

[Shari]

I listed myself on Reunion.com eons ago, hoping to see all my old 
schoomates doing the same.  They were starting to.  Then the site 
changed not only their name, but the whole class listing thing, and 
became user unfriendly.  Facebook seems to be doing the thing they 
used to do, where you can see your classmates not only for your year, 
but years before and after, because obviously not all your friends 
were in your class.  Kinda cool, yes.  I only wish they let you do 
grade schools and junior highs, too.  Now THAT would be really cool! 
I'm not a big social networker but yes, some socializing is cool.  I 
just reconnected with an old friend from my Macintosh Users Group 
that I'm no longer a member of.  If I was a high school kid and all 
my friends were on Facebook, and we were all connected, yes it would 
be very very heady!  The wall being your yearbook... very heady 
indeedy.


I keep getting emails from Reunion.com trying to entice me back.  One 
fellow keeps looking me up.  The ex-husband of a good friend, they 
had an ugly divorce.  Now why oh why does he keep looking at my 
profile there?  Surely he knows I know how badly they ended?  Unless 
he wants to tell his side...  (crazy people)


Shari
--
  Dogs and bears, sports and cars, and patriots t-shirts
  http://www.gityasome.com
 WlND0WS and MAClNT0SH shareware
 http://www.gypsyware.com
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Re: Creepy 2020

[Thomas McGrath III]

Ping Pong!!! I LOVE PING PONG
P  * <<< P



Tom McGrath III
Lazy River Software
3mcgr...@comcast.net

iTunes Library Suite - libITS
Information and download can be found on this page:
http://www.lazyriversoftware.com/RevOne.html






On Jul 2, 2009, at 1:26 AM, Shari wrote:

I listed myself on Reunion.com eons ago, hoping to see all my old  
schoomates doing the same.  They were starting to.  Then the site  
changed not only their name, but the whole class listing thing, and  
became user unfriendly.  Facebook seems to be doing the thing they  
used to do, where you can see your classmates not only for your  
year, but years before and after, because obviously not all your  
friends were in your class.  Kinda cool, yes.  I only wish they let  
you do grade schools and junior highs, too.  Now THAT would be  
really cool! I'm not a big social networker but yes, some  
socializing is cool.  I just reconnected with an old friend from my  
Macintosh Users Group that I'm no longer a member of.  If I was a  
high school kid and all my friends were on Facebook, and we were all  
connected, yes it would be very very heady!  The wall being your  
yearbook... very heady indeedy.


I keep getting emails from Reunion.com trying to entice me back.   
One fellow keeps looking me up.  The ex-husband of a good friend,  
they had an ugly divorce.  Now why oh why does he keep looking at my  
profile there?  Surely he knows I know how badly they ended?  Unless  
he wants to tell his side...  (crazy people)


Shari
--
 Dogs and bears, sports and cars, and patriots t-shirts
 http://www.gityasome.com
WlND0WS and MAClNT0SH shareware
http://www.gypsyware.com
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Re: Creepy 2020

[Shari]

Ping Pong!!! I LOVE PING PONG
P  * <<< P


I've got a fan!  Woo hoo!  And a face to go with the name :-)  Now 
how did he find me?  Dunno.  I musta shown up on his potential buddy 
list since many of you are on mine.  If anybody's looking you'll find 
me under Coxford.  Now I dare you to find a friend whose last name is 
Smith or Johnson.  All you can do is hope they look for you someday...



--
  Dogs and bears, sports and cars, and patriots t-shirts
  http://www.gityasome.com
 WlND0WS and MAClNT0SH shareware
 http://www.gypsyware.com
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Re: Creepy 2020

[Thomas McGrath III]

Actually, I went through all of your different businesses and searched  
on them until I found your full name on one and searched that in FB.  
Nice trail through shareware, t-shirts, other t-shirts, still other t- 
shirts etc. until the Pong fan page.


[OT] I also sell t-shirts online and write applications. Is this a  
coincidence??? I also have multiple online businesses. Hmmm...



My latest is providing dedicated portals to online businesses as an  
application on the iPhone. I have just finished teaching myself  how  
to write the iPhone apps and am researching best practices for optimal  
web views.



Tom McGrath III
Lazy River Software
3mcgr...@comcast.net

iTunes Library Suite - libITS
Information and download can be found on this page:
http://www.lazyriversoftware.com/RevOne.html






On Jul 2, 2009, at 10:08 AM, Shari wrote:


Ping Pong!!! I LOVE PING PONG
P  * <<< P


I've got a fan!  Woo hoo!  And a face to go with the name :-)  Now  
how did he find me?  Dunno.  I musta shown up on his potential buddy  
list since many of you are on mine.  If anybody's looking you'll  
find me under Coxford.  Now I dare you to find a friend whose last  
name is Smith or Johnson.  All you can do is hope they look for you  
someday...



--
 Dogs and bears, sports and cars, and patriots t-shirts
 http://www.gityasome.com
WlND0WS and MAClNT0SH shareware
http://www.gypsyware.com
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RE: Creepy 2020

[Lynn Fredricks]

> I still think it ironic that we are intolerant of governments 
> and corporations when they engage in behaviors we excuse in 
> our selves.

I wouldn't lump these two together. But if your point is that corporations
are just providing a service that we want, I can see your point.

The problem I see is that at least in the United States, for the most part,
we don't own our own data. It is also legal, apparently, to attach penalties
(or should it be "benefits") to not disclosing data when its for services
that have nothing to do with the service.

For example - does Safeway really need to know that I, personally, bought
Ben & Jerry's Imagine World Peace, or that my preferences for this ice cream
occur on date X in location Y? If I do not disclose this information by
using a "rewards card", that Ill be charged significantly more?

For purely inventory purposes, they don't really need to know that. As a
reseller, they haven't any vested right in the "property" of the product to
even ask that - they haven't licensed that pint to me. Now its perhaps good
for them to know that this particular store sells through this particular
product at rate X - but they do not need to tag me with that information.
What combination of "future devices" can be used in the future with this
information? How will Safeway, in the future, utilize that information to
provide complementary services with its partners?

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Paradigma Software
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server 

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Re: Creepy 2020

[Richmond Mathewson]

This is a problem that revolves around 2 highly abstract concepts:

'Rights' and 'Property'; both of which have no reality in the physical 
sense at all.


'Rights' are even more nebulous than 'Property' so I'll TRY to show what is
'odd' about the concept of property first.

For the sake of argument:

1. I own a house in Scotland.  How would I ultimately prove that?

Well . . . title deeds (which can be faked), the beliefs of my
neighbours (notoriously fickle), a rental agreement (on paper)
I have with somebody who pays me money to live in the house.

Difficult one.

2. I own the coat I am wearing.  Really? Begs the question.

3. I own my ideas, ways I behave ['data'], and so on.
   WHAT do you own? An abstract concept (ownership)
applied to a set of abstractions and behaviours resulting from
a congeries of abstractions.

'Rights'

Consider:

I have a right to own a fridge.

What on earth does that mean?

Either I own a fridge (maybe that constitutes having a fridge inside
my house), or I don't.

I suppose we could have a piece of paper drawn up by some chaps
that states "Every man has the right to . " but I really wonder if
the chaps who drew up that paper had really thought through what
that meant?

Lynn Fredricks wrote:

snip
For example - does Safeway really need to know that I, personally, bought
Ben & Jerry's Imagine World Peace, or that my preferences for this ice cream
occur on date X in location Y? If I do not disclose this information by
using a "rewards card", that Ill be charged significantly more?

  

snip

Now, knowledge is mine only as long as it is locked inside my head; as soon
as it is out, "running around wild, in the open" it is as free as a bird.

Anybody who sees me buying Haggis at Mogerley's in Dumfries doesn't,
surely, have to ask my permission to tell that piece of information to the
owner of the Instant Plastic Haggis Factory so he can flood my letter box
with multi-coloured pamphlets about how his Haggises are only made from
the meat of choicest stray dogs and cats?

"If I do not disclose this information by using a "rewards card", that 
Ill be charged significantly more?"


Tough cheese, you live in a market-driven economy - move to a "people's 
paradise" such as

Cuba (or, soon to be Venezuela and Nepal) if you can't hack it.
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RE: Creepy 2020

[Randall Reetz]

You have a choice.  Dont sign up for "special" sales gimmicks.  Coupons, and 
the like dominate our retail world because people are stupid or greedy enough 
and especially selfish enough to take part and thus demand such false economy 
systems.  Safeway spends hundereds of millions of dollars on these schemes.  
Who pays that cost?.  Those who sign up pay some of that cost, but especially 
those good people who wont.  It is a draconian tax on those who still have a 
sence of morality and responcibility towards others.  If people cared more 
about the health of the economy than saving 29 cents on a 12 pack of toilet 
paper, the cost of all goods would come down.  Very time we sign up for or make 
use of a membership program we are saying "i want someone else to pay for my 
greed", and we are saying that to people with a greater sence of morality and a 
greater respect for comunity anf the future.  Is saving 29 cents worth the 
moral cost that it represents?  If so, we deserve the economic crash and global 
climate catastrophe.  In a global economy we vote more with our puchaces than 
in the polling booth.  Lets all start owning up to the fact that we are buying 
more than toilet paper each time we go to the checkout register.  Maybe 29 
cents is a bargain if what you are really buying is social welfair, fairness, 
trust and respect for your fellow humans, and a much more stable future.

-Original Message-
From: "Lynn Fredricks" 
To: "'How to use Revolution'" 
Sent: 7/2/2009 10:14 AM
Subject: RE: Creepy 2020

> I still think it ironic that we are intolerant of governments 
> and corporations when they engage in behaviors we excuse in 
> our selves.

I wouldn't lump these two together. But if your point is that corporations
are just providing a service that we want, I can see your point.

The problem I see is that at least in the United States, for the most part,
we don't own our own data. It is also legal, apparently, to attach penalties
(or should it be "benefits") to not disclosing data when its for services
that have nothing to do with the service.

For example - does Safeway really need to know that I, personally, bought
Ben & Jerry's Imagine World Peace, or that my preferences for this ice cream
occur on date X in location Y? If I do not disclose this information by
using a "rewards card", that Ill be charged significantly more?

For purely inventory purposes, they don't really need to know that. As a
reseller, they haven't any vested right in the "property" of the product to
even ask that - they haven't licensed that pint to me. Now its perhaps good
for them to know that this particular store sells through this particular
product at rate X - but they do not need to tag me with that information.
What combination of "future devices" can be used in the future with this
information? How will Safeway, in the future, utilize that information to
provide complementary services with its partners?

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Paradigma Software
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server 

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Re: Creepy 2020

[Richard Gaskin]

Randall Reetz wrote:

> You have a choice.  Dont sign up for "special" sales gimmicks.

Or go ahead and sign up for the Normal Price cards (which the stores 
mislabel "Customer Rewards cards"), but just don't use any real info.


If you apply at the counter they'll hand you the card on the spot; no 
need for a valid mailing address.


While you're at it, it's helpful for privacy advocacy to fill out the 
application with a completely different demographic profile than yours, 
so the more people who do this the less useful the database becomes.


As these scammers begin to realize they've been scammed, they'll have to 
return to the fundamental goal of good business:  delivering value.


Fourth World's Privacy Policy linked to from every page at our site 
makes our position on these things clear:



--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World
 Revolution training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com
 Webzine for Rev developers: http://www.revjournal.com
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RE: Creepy 2020

[Randall Reetz]

You have a choice.  Dont sign up for "special" sales gimmicks.  Coupons, and 
the like dominate our retail world because people are stupid or greedy enough 
and especially selfish enough to take part and thus demand such false economy 
systems.  Safeway spends hundereds of millions of dollars on these schemes.  
Who pays that cost?.  Those who sign up pay some of that cost, but especially 
those good people who wont.  It is a draconian tax on those who still have a 
sence of morality and responcibility towards others.  If people cared more 
about the health of the economy than saving 29 cents on a 12 pack of toilet 
paper, the cost of all goods would come down.  Very time we sign up for or make 
use of a membership program we are saying "i want someone else to pay for my 
greed", and we are saying that to people with a greater sence of morality and a 
greater respect for comunity anf the future.  Is saving 29 cents worth the 
moral cost that it represents?  If so, we deserve the economic crash and global 
climate catastrophe.  In a global economy we vote more with our puchaces than 
in the polling booth.  Lets all start owning up to the fact that we are buying 
more than toilet paper each time we go to the checkout register.  Maybe 29 
cents is a bargain if what you are really buying is social welfair, fairness, 
trust and respect for your fellow humans, and a much more stable future.

-Original Message-
From: "Lynn Fredricks" 
To: "'How to use Revolution'" 
Sent: 7/2/2009 10:14 AM
Subject: RE: Creepy 2020

> I still think it ironic that we are intolerant of governments 
> and corporations when they engage in behaviors we excuse in 
> our selves.

I wouldn't lump these two together. But if your point is that corporations
are just providing a service that we want, I can see your point.

The problem I see is that at least in the United States, for the most part,
we don't own our own data. It is also legal, apparently, to attach penalties
(or should it be "benefits") to not disclosing data when its for services
that have nothing to do with the service.

For example - does Safeway really need to know that I, personally, bought
Ben & Jerry's Imagine World Peace, or that my preferences for this ice cream
occur on date X in location Y? If I do not disclose this information by
using a "rewards card", that Ill be charged significantly more?

For purely inventory purposes, they don't really need to know that. As a
reseller, they haven't any vested right in the "property" of the product to
even ask that - they haven't licensed that pint to me. Now its perhaps good
for them to know that this particular store sells through this particular
product at rate X - but they do not need to tag me with that information.
What combination of "future devices" can be used in the future with this
information? How will Safeway, in the future, utilize that information to
provide complementary services with its partners?

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Paradigma Software
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server 

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Re: Creepy 2020

[Judy Perry]

Randall Reetz wrote:


You have a choice.  Dont sign up for "special" sales gimmicks.


But sometimes the choice isn't explicit, or really a choice at all.  The 
story I like to tell in my class is of how, when we were trying to have 
our children, we needed to use fertility services.  As we needed to use an 
egg donor (TMI, I know), we had to use twice the normal amount of hormone 
drugs, a partial portion of the price for which was covered by our 
insurance.


Now, it turns out that some of these same drugs are also given to 
post-menopausal women, which didn't occur to me at the time, but I was 
somewhat astounded to have become the recipient of emails from the AARP 
and coupons for Depends...


Coincidence?  I think not.

Judy
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Re: Creepy 2020

[Shari]

Yeah, I'm out there :-)  Got three websites just for the tshirts, but 
the designs are all the same.  It's the fulfillment companies that 
are different.  Got two websites for the software.  Got other 
websites that just are.  You with the evil CP?  Or Z-Pod?  Or other?



Actually, I went through all of your different businesses and 
searched on them until I found your full name on one and searched 
that in FB. Nice trail through shareware, t-shirts, other t-shirts, 
still other t-shirts etc. until the Pong fan page.


[OT] I also sell t-shirts online and write applications. Is this a 
coincidence??? I also have multiple online businesses. Hmmm...


--
  Dogs and bears, sports and cars, and patriots t-shirts
  http://www.gityasome.com
 WlND0WS and MAClNT0SH shareware
 http://www.gypsyware.com
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RE: Creepy 2020

[Randall Reetz]

If the majority of consumers demanded fairness over gimmicks, the safeways of 
the world would be falling over themselves to meet that market.  It is we.  Our 
daily actions determine the shape of products and services and what we value.  
There is a study done of chimps.  A chimps was taught to count.  Put a late of 
jelly beans in front of it and this chimps would sit there draging one at a 
time into a pile... Then touch the square with the number (1 to 100) 
corresponding on a touch screen.  After a while he was correct almost 100 
percent of the time.  If he was correct, he got to eat the beans.  If not, he 
had to wait for the next day to try again.  Then the changed the experiment.  
Brought in another chimps behind a glass partition.  The other chimps had no 
roll but to be there.  In the presence of the second chimp, the counting chimps 
ability to count go worse and worse.  Especially because a wrong count meant he 
had to watch the plate of beans handed to the passive chimp each time he lost.  
I think humans have the same problem.  We cant perform when we think somone 
eles might profit from our mistakes. It isnt so much that we want a discount on 
toilet paper as it is that we simply couldnt take it if someone else got that 
discount and we didnt. 

-Original Message-
From: "Judy Perry" 
To: "How to use Revolution" 
Sent: 7/2/2009 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: Creepy 2020

> Randall Reetz wrote:
>
>> You have a choice.  Dont sign up for "special" sales gimmicks.

But sometimes the choice isn't explicit, or really a choice at all.  The 
story I like to tell in my class is of how, when we were trying to have 
our children, we needed to use fertility services.  As we needed to use an 
egg donor (TMI, I know), we had to use twice the normal amount of hormone 
drugs, a partial portion of the price for which was covered by our 
insurance.

Now, it turns out that some of these same drugs are also given to 
post-menopausal women, which didn't occur to me at the time, but I was 
somewhat astounded to have become the recipient of emails from the AARP 
and coupons for Depends...

Coincidence?  I think not.

Judy
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Re: Creepy 2020

[Jerry J]

On Jul 2, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:


While you're at it, it's helpful for privacy advocacy to fill out  
the application with a completely different demographic profile than  
yours, so the more people who do this the less useful the database  
becomes.


I heard from a guy in cypherpunks.com that every time they meet, they  
throw all their Safeway cards into a hat, shake, and pick out a new  
one...


--Jerry

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Re: Creepy 2020

[Jim Sims]

On Jul 2, 2009, at 11:46 PM, Randall Reetz wrote:


If the majority of consumers demanded fairness over gimmicks




"I want you all to lean out your window and yell 'I'm as mad as H*LL  
and I'm not going to take it any more!"


Couldn't resist, I was watching the movie 'Network' tonight.  ;-)

sims


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Re: Creepy 2020

[Mark Wieder]

Jim-

Thursday, July 2, 2009, 7:54:39 PM, you wrote:

> "I want you all to lean out your window and yell 'I'm as mad as H*LL
> and I'm not going to take it any more!"

I did that, but a couple of squirrels thought I was a nut...

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net

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Re: Creepy 2020

[Shari]

Wow, I can't believe the life of the thread I started!  Fascinating! 
And I wuz worried about posting something slightly OT... LOL!


Shari
--
  Dogs and bears, sports and cars, and patriots t-shirts
  http://www.gityasome.com
 WlND0WS and MAClNT0SH shareware
 http://www.gypsyware.com
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RE: Creepy 2020

[Randall Reetz]

That will be the day!

-Original Message-
From: "Jim Sims" 
To: "How to use Revolution" 
Sent: 7/2/2009 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: Creepy 2020


On Jul 2, 2009, at 11:46 PM, Randall Reetz wrote:

> If the majority of consumers demanded fairness over gimmicks



"I want you all to lean out your window and yell 'I'm as mad as H*LL  
and I'm not going to take it any more!"

Couldn't resist, I was watching the movie 'Network' tonight.  ;-)

sims


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RE: Creepy 2020

[Randall Reetz]

I would hope that the economic and ecological and resource and energy 
catastrophe we are facing (living within) would give us all reason to pause and 
think deeply about which kind of humanity we want to be.  We have seen what 
skimming and baseless profiteering wrot.  We might now think what productivity 
really means.  Ask our selves what typrs of activities actually produce more 
per hour worked.  And more to the point, which activities produce what is 
nessisary for the production tomorrow of higher productivity.  The only way to 
make more money (unless you want another recession adjustment) is to do only 
productivity increasing activities.  Anything else is fake wealth and will be 
followed by the inevitable correction.  So, are we done ripping eachother off?  
Can we start acting like we are adults and believe in reality?  Consuption does 
not drive an economy.  Consumption results from a healthy productive economy.  
Revenue and throughput isnt a reliable indicator of productivity.  We must have 
learned this little lesson.  It isnt how much money you can funnel towards 
yourn section of the pie, it is how york section of the pie can grow the whole 
pie bigger.  This is a big one people.  We have got to learn it.  The rape 
africa to support europe model doesnt work anymore.  We have to pay our own 
way.  It is the biggest challange yet faced by humanity.  I say we can.  Pay 
attention to how you spend your labor and creative resources.  Each of us 
matter.  What i said about our purchasing decisions mattering palestine in 
comparison to how powerful are our labor decisions.  Productivity.   

-Original Message-
From: "Shari" 
To: "How to use Revolution" 
Sent: 7/2/2009 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: Creepy 2020

Wow, I can't believe the life of the thread I started!  Fascinating! 
And I wuz worried about posting something slightly OT... LOL!

Shari
-- 
   Dogs and bears, sports and cars, and patriots t-shirts
   http://www.gityasome.com
  WlND0WS and MAClNT0SH shareware
  http://www.gypsyware.com
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RE: Creepy 2020

[Randall Reetz]

Sorry about the sermon.  Also, the stupidity of the text hinting on my 
blackjack phone.  I did not mean to say "matters palestine" of course... But 
"matters pale in comparison...". 


-Original Message-
From: "Randall Reetz" 
To: "How to use Revolution" 
Sent: 7/2/2009 10:13 PM
Subject: RE: Creepy 2020

I would hope that the economic and ecological and resource and energy 
catastrophe we are facing (living within) would give us all reason to pause and 
think deeply about which kind of humanity we want to be.  We have seen what 
skimming and baseless profiteering wrot.  We might now think what productivity 
really means.  Ask our selves what typrs of activities actually produce more 
per hour worked.  And more to the point, which activities produce what is 
nessisary for the production tomorrow of higher productivity.  The only way to 
make more money (unless you want another recession adjustment) is to do only 
productivity increasing activities.  Anything else is fake wealth and will be 
followed by the inevitable correction.  So, are we done ripping eachother off?  
Can we start acting like we are adults and believe in reality?  Consuption does 
not drive an economy.  Consumption results from a healthy productive economy.  
Revenue and throughput isnt a reliable indicator of productivity.  We must have 
learned this little lesson.  It isnt how much money you can funnel towards 
yourn section of the pie, it is how york section of the pie can grow the whole 
pie bigger.  This is a big one people.  We have got to learn it.  The rape 
africa to support europe model doesnt work anymore.  We have to pay our own 
way.  It is the biggest challange yet faced by humanity.  I say we can.  Pay 
attention to how you spend your labor and creative resources.  Each of us 
matter.  What i said about our purchasing decisions mattering palestine in 
comparison to how powerful are our labor decisions.  Productivity.   

-Original Message-
From: "Shari" 
To: "How to use Revolution" 
Sent: 7/2/2009 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: Creepy 2020

Wow, I can't believe the life of the thread I started!  Fascinating! 
And I wuz worried about posting something slightly OT... LOL!

Shari
-- 
   Dogs and bears, sports and cars, and patriots t-shirts
   http://www.gityasome.com
  WlND0WS and MAClNT0SH shareware
  http://www.gypsyware.com
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