Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
On Sep 1, 2007, at 7:16 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote: Luis wrote: A plain text file should do it, with the MAC code encrypted. That's what I'm thinking. But encrypted or not, anyone who copies it will have access to the software. (I'm starting to wonder if I care...) ;) How about having the server run a validation app full time. It can periodically check to see that it is installed legally on the server by checking the MAC address and then generating the appropriate key. If they both match as expected it continues to run. The server app is listening to a port where the clients ping for validation from the server app on their startup. On an illegal install, the server validation app will not allow the clients to run when they check in on startup. The only negative is that you have to have an app running on the server. Should not be a big deal. Mark Talluto -- CANELA Software http://www.canelasoftware.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
Mark Talluto wrote: How about having the server run a validation app full time. It can periodically check to see that it is installed legally on the server by checking the MAC address and then generating the appropriate key. If they both match as expected it continues to run. The server app is listening to a port where the clients ping for validation from the server app on their startup. On an illegal install, the server validation app will not allow the clients to run when they check in on startup. The only negative is that you have to have an app running on the server. Should not be a big deal. That might be workable, I'll put it on the list. Thanks for the idea. For now, we've decided to forget about remote access and leave things the way they are. Time is short, so we'll tackle this in the next update. At least I have a couple of different things to try now. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
--- J. Landman Gay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a way to obtain the MAC address of a server from a client machine on a Windows LAN? Some web research suggests that the arp command will give what I want, but when I run it in the command line it says there are no arp entries, even if I successfully ping the server first. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | Hi Jacque, Qory to be so late with this, but have you considered executing a VBScript by means of a shell command? Here's the first entry of a google for mac address vbscript: http://www.winforums.com/showthread.php?t=8842 It seems it is possible to go through all the Windows machines in a domain and obtain the MAC addresses of each computer. Hopàe this helped, Jan Schenkel. Quartam Reports PDF Library for Revolution http://www.quartam.com = As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time. (La Rochefoucauld) Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=listsid=396545469 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
Jan Schenkel wrote: Qory to be so late with this, but have you considered executing a VBScript by means of a shell command? Here's the first entry of a google for mac address vbscript: http://www.winforums.com/showthread.php?t=8842 It seems it is possible to go through all the Windows machines in a domain and obtain the MAC addresses of each computer. Thanks Jan, I will definitely look into this. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
J. Landman Gay wrote: Alex Tweedly wrote: J. Landman Gay wrote: From what I read, the arp command is supposed to get what I need but I can't make it work. I think that's because my server is a Mac. If I had a Windows-only network it might work but I don't know how to test it with my current setup. :( I very much doubt that :-) Whether the server is a Mac or a polka-dotted unicorn (??), if you can ping it, it pretty much has to have an arp association on the client machine :-) after you do the ping, does the arp table on the server have an entry for the client ? Well, I'm pinging from Parallels to the Mac, then doing the arp command on the Windows/Parallels side. It says there are no entries at all. I did use the -a flag. Sounds like maybe I'm doing it backwards? It's the only way I can do it, since Parallels is my only functioning Windows environment right now. Sounds like you may be doing it right. I would be concerned that Parallels manages the network from their Hypervisor, and may therefore shield (i.e. hide) such things as the ARP entries form the non-primary OSes. In any case, there was nothing in your description that said to me must be on same subnet, so as Luis said, arp is pretty much a loser once you need to handle a routed (multi-subnet) network; I'd look more into his suggestions of a script / file on the server which determines / holds its own MAC address. In another email, you said If there is no reliable way to get the server's MAC address, I have a problem. The only way you can get even close to a reliable way is to run something on the server itself - anything else will fail in some case involving routed networks and/or proxy-arp and/or multi-network-interface machines (which Mac address is to be used ?). Even then, you can still hit problems if the MAC address changes (e.g. servers running load-sharing or virtual network protocols). -- Alex Tweedly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.tweedly.net ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
Alex Tweedly wrote: In any case, there was nothing in your description that said to me must be on same subnet, so as Luis said, arp is pretty much a loser once you need to handle a routed (multi-subnet) network; I'd look more into his suggestions of a script / file on the server which determines / holds its own MAC address. That's the conclusion I've come to after thinking about this all day. But keeping a file on the server pretty much ruins the copy protection. All anyone has to do is copy the program and its data files, and then it will work when accessed from another computer -- even if the server that holds the copied app isn't registered. The client will think it is. So that leaves me wondering where to put such a file. It has to be a place that allows full read permissions for remote computers, but can't be found or copied easily. I don't think there such a place, but I'd settle for something good enough at this point. I'm looking into ADS now for that type of storage. What do you think about that? Will it cause my app to be flaggged as a virus? -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
Hi, J. I assume your clients want to do this like we used to with Hypercard, sharing a single stack. Are they trying to save per-seat charges, by saying that one user at a time is good enough? How about, as I've mentioned, a splash screen standalone at each seat to do the local authentication? And do something at the remote served stack level that allows only x users at a time... they won't be able to run the stack alone without an IDE and knowing the way in. Is the client having an IDE a concern? That's the conclusion I've come to after thinking about this all day. But keeping a file on the server pretty much ruins the copy protection. All anyone has to do is copy the program and its data files, and then it will work when accessed from another computer -- even if the server that holds the copied app isn't registered. The client will think it is. -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
A plain text file should do it, with the MAC code encrypted. Other than that, you could pop over and get the MAC address off the interface directly! It's stamped on all network hardware (might be on the inside though...). Whoever installs the soft can get access and use that as the key. Cheers, Luis. J. Landman Gay wrote: Alex Tweedly wrote: In any case, there was nothing in your description that said to me must be on same subnet, so as Luis said, arp is pretty much a loser once you need to handle a routed (multi-subnet) network; I'd look more into his suggestions of a script / file on the server which determines / holds its own MAC address. That's the conclusion I've come to after thinking about this all day. But keeping a file on the server pretty much ruins the copy protection. All anyone has to do is copy the program and its data files, and then it will work when accessed from another computer -- even if the server that holds the copied app isn't registered. The client will think it is. So that leaves me wondering where to put such a file. It has to be a place that allows full read permissions for remote computers, but can't be found or copied easily. I don't think there such a place, but I'd settle for something good enough at this point. I'm looking into ADS now for that type of storage. What do you think about that? Will it cause my app to be flaggged as a virus? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
there you go! You could create a little giveaway app that does nothing but run locally, gets the MAC address of the local machine in question, and either provide a way for the user to display or cut and paste the number, or send the number to be added to a list on the server. A plain text file should do it, with the MAC code encrypted. Other than that, you could pop over and get the MAC address off the interface directly! It's stamped on all network hardware (might be on the inside though...). Whoever installs the soft can get access and use that as the key. Cheers, Luis. -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
Stephen Barncard wrote: Hi, J. I assume your clients want to do this like we used to with Hypercard, sharing a single stack. Are they trying to save per-seat charges, by saying that one user at a time is good enough? No, not like that. The standalone needs to be loaded from the server, and there should be no installation of anything required on any client machines. The client machines will open the standalone directly from the server. This puts a copy in memory on the local machine. It is more complex than I've explained. There are multiple files on the server that have to be managed and they change often. The goal is to keep everything in one place and not have to install software anywhere else. How about, as I've mentioned, a splash screen standalone at each seat to do the local authentication? And do something at the remote served stack level that allows only x users at a time... they won't be able to run the stack alone without an IDE and knowing the way in. Is the client having an IDE a concern? The number of concurrent users is unrestricted so that's not a problem. The copy on the server probably won't even be running most of the time; it will only be launched remotely by other machines. What you mention is pretty much the way it runs now. We have a copy of the app on every individual machine, and each one has to be separately installed because each has a different MAC address. On large installations this is a real pain. The goal now is to keep nothing on the client machines and have everyone access the software from a central location. I just had another thought. I know Windows allows multiple instances of an app to run. Does OS X? I guess I never tried it over a network; I've been assuming it will work. Note that the app on the server will almost never be running. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
Luis wrote: A plain text file should do it, with the MAC code encrypted. That's what I'm thinking. But encrypted or not, anyone who copies it will have access to the software. (I'm starting to wonder if I care...) ;) Other than that, you could pop over and get the MAC address off the interface directly! It's stamped on all network hardware (might be on the inside though...). Whoever installs the soft can get access and use that as the key. When the software is installed on the server, it gets the MAC address by itself and stores it. The issue arises when a copy of the software on a remote machine starts up and needs to cross-check with the server to see if the server is running a valid copy. I need the server's MAC address for that. Note that no software will be installed on any client machines. Everything has to be read across the network. Storing info in a file that can be read remotely seems to be the only way to deal with the problem, but then that leaves a hole in the security. Anyone who copies that file and installs it on a different, unlicensed network will have full access. The text file, encrypted or not, needs to be hidden and inaccessible to users while still being accessible to a remote machine inquiry. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
Jacque, I don't know how to find a remote mac address, but a local windows mac address you can use: ipconfig /all and parse it. I think that to touch such low level info as MAC Addresses you may need some raw C/C++ code to socket structures. On 8/31/07, J. Landman Gay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a way to obtain the MAC address of a server from a client machine on a Windows LAN? Some web research suggests that the arp command will give what I want, but when I run it in the command line it says there are no arp entries, even if I successfully ping the server first. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
Jacque, Using XP home and the command: arp -a works here as long as I perform the requisite ping and pause briefly to let the arp cache update. -- cb On 8/31/07, J. Landman Gay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there a way to obtain the MAC address of a server from a client machine on a Windows LAN? Some web research suggests that the arp command will give what I want, but when I run it in the command line it says there are no arp entries, even if I successfully ping the server first. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
Andre Garzia wrote: Jacque, I don't know how to find a remote mac address, but a local windows mac address you can use: ipconfig /all Thanks. I'm already doing that locally but now I need to get it from a remote machine. and parse it. I think that to touch such low level info as MAC Addresses you may need some raw C/C++ code to socket structures. From what I read, the arp command is supposed to get what I need but I can't make it work. I think that's because my server is a Mac. If I had a Windows-only network it might work but I don't know how to test it with my current setup. :( -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
J. Landman Gay wrote: Is there a way to obtain the MAC address of a server from a client machine on a Windows LAN? Some web research suggests that the arp command will give what I want, but when I run it in the command line it says there are no arp entries, even if I successfully ping the server first. I would have expected that to work you are doing arp -a ? allow a few seconds after the ping before trying it (should update within one second unless there are some funny config changes on the machine). remember that it will not work on wifi networks, and will only work on a simple LAN (i.e. no router between client and server) remember it will not work properly in some (unusual) setups where all traffic is directed through a router/DHCP server - usually identifiable by multiple arp entries with the same MAC address for multiple IP addresses (this is pretty obscure, but just possible) and finally - because I just can't resist - why do you want to do this ? answer off-list if you prefer - but I can think of a lot of reasons why you should try to avoid knowing the MAC address of other machines it can get you into deep trouble in some cases (e.g. proxy-ARP based networks, or those where gratuitous ARPs are used to switch the Mac address association, but there is no way to get these changes triggered up to any application which has stored this info). -- Alex Tweedly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.tweedly.net ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
chris bohnert wrote: Jacque, Using XP home and the command: arp -a works here as long as I perform the requisite ping and pause briefly to let the arp cache update. Thanks, that's what I read on the web too. I think I am going to have to write this blind and let the testers try it out. Would you be willing to share the script you used, and tell me what it sends back so I can parse it? Or if you just used shell commands, how long a pause did you need? -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
J. Landman Gay wrote: From what I read, the arp command is supposed to get what I need but I can't make it work. I think that's because my server is a Mac. If I had a Windows-only network it might work but I don't know how to test it with my current setup. :( I very much doubt that :-) Whether the server is a Mac or a polka-dotted unicorn (??), if you can ping it, it pretty much has to have an arp association on the client machine :-) after you do the ping, does the arp table on the server have an entry for the client ? could you send the output of ipconfig on the windows client, and ifconfig on the Mac server. Thanks -- Alex Tweedly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.tweedly.net ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
Alex Tweedly wrote: allow a few seconds after the ping before trying it (should update within one second unless there are some funny config changes on the machine). remember that it will not work on wifi networks, and will only work on a simple LAN (i.e. no router between client and server) remember it will not work properly in some (unusual) setups where all traffic is directed through a router/DHCP server - usually identifiable by multiple arp entries with the same MAC address for multiple IP addresses (this is pretty obscure, but just possible) That's bad news. It has to work on any network configuration. and finally - because I just can't resist - why do you want to do this ? answer off-list if you prefer - but I can think of a lot of reasons why you should try to avoid knowing the MAC address of other machines it can get you into deep trouble in some cases (e.g. proxy-ARP based networks, or those where gratuitous ARPs are used to switch the Mac address association, but there is no way to get these changes triggered up to any application which has stored this info). Then that's a problem too. My app creates a serial key that is registered to a specific machine. It won't run unless the MAC address the app is on matches the one that was stored on installation. This has worked fine for a couple of years, but now we have a situation where people on a network want to lanuch the app from the server. When that happens, the app (as it is now, using ipconfig) gets the MAC address of the local machine, which of course won't match, and the app refuses to run. So I need to retrieve the MAC address of the server the app is actually installed on, not the one on the local machine. If there is no reliable way to get the server's MAC address, I have a problem. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
Alex Tweedly wrote: J. Landman Gay wrote: From what I read, the arp command is supposed to get what I need but I can't make it work. I think that's because my server is a Mac. If I had a Windows-only network it might work but I don't know how to test it with my current setup. :( I very much doubt that :-) Whether the server is a Mac or a polka-dotted unicorn (??), if you can ping it, it pretty much has to have an arp association on the client machine :-) after you do the ping, does the arp table on the server have an entry for the client ? Well, I'm pinging from Parallels to the Mac, then doing the arp command on the Windows/Parallels side. It says there are no entries at all. I did use the -a flag. Sounds like maybe I'm doing it backwards? It's the only way I can do it, since Parallels is my only functioning Windows environment right now. could you send the output of ipconfig on the windows client, and ifconfig on the Mac server. Thanks I'll try to get that tomorrow, I really appreciate the help. I got so tired of running up against walls today that I just shut it all down and went off to play computer games. I'm such a wimp. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
Run ifconfig on the server, plop the output into a text file on a shared folder, examine said shared file. Or, if possible, email the text file and then parse. If you have permission to run a remote shell, then you can run that in directly from the remote end. ARP info from: http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/users/gorry/course/inet-pages/arp.html 'The figure below shows the use of arp when a computer tries to contact a remote computer on the same LAN (known as sysa) using the ping program. It is assumed that no previous IP datagrams have been received form this computer, and therefore arp must first be used to identify the MAC address of the remote computer.' So the 'ping, wait and arp -a' should work, you might want to pipe the output to a file. Other than that you could have a look at packet sniffers and check out the client server negotiations. http://www.wireshark.org Cheers, Luis. J. Landman Gay wrote: Alex Tweedly wrote: allow a few seconds after the ping before trying it (should update within one second unless there are some funny config changes on the machine). remember that it will not work on wifi networks, and will only work on a simple LAN (i.e. no router between client and server) remember it will not work properly in some (unusual) setups where all traffic is directed through a router/DHCP server - usually identifiable by multiple arp entries with the same MAC address for multiple IP addresses (this is pretty obscure, but just possible) That's bad news. It has to work on any network configuration. and finally - because I just can't resist - why do you want to do this ? answer off-list if you prefer - but I can think of a lot of reasons why you should try to avoid knowing the MAC address of other machines it can get you into deep trouble in some cases (e.g. proxy-ARP based networks, or those where gratuitous ARPs are used to switch the Mac address association, but there is no way to get these changes triggered up to any application which has stored this info). Then that's a problem too. My app creates a serial key that is registered to a specific machine. It won't run unless the MAC address the app is on matches the one that was stored on installation. This has worked fine for a couple of years, but now we have a situation where people on a network want to lanuch the app from the server. When that happens, the app (as it is now, using ipconfig) gets the MAC address of the local machine, which of course won't match, and the app refuses to run. So I need to retrieve the MAC address of the server the app is actually installed on, not the one on the local machine. If there is no reliable way to get the server's MAC address, I have a problem. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
Perhaps I'm being naive, but couldn't you use the splash screen technique for the remote 'clients'? The executable on each station could launch the main stack on the network after getting the MAC address Then that's a problem too. My app creates a serial key that is registered to a specific machine. It won't run unless the MAC address the app is on matches the one that was stored on installation. This has worked fine for a couple of years, but now we have a situation where people on a network want to lanuch the app from the server. When that happens, the app (as it is now, using ipconfig) gets the Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Remote MAC address on Windows
Ah, on Windows. Tried netstat ? I'm not in front of a Windows box at the moment, and I can't recall if the output includes the MAC address info. And note, arp is pretty much useless if it's not in the same subnet. Cheers, Luis. J. Landman Gay wrote: Alex Tweedly wrote: J. Landman Gay wrote: From what I read, the arp command is supposed to get what I need but I can't make it work. I think that's because my server is a Mac. If I had a Windows-only network it might work but I don't know how to test it with my current setup. :( I very much doubt that :-) Whether the server is a Mac or a polka-dotted unicorn (??), if you can ping it, it pretty much has to have an arp association on the client machine :-) after you do the ping, does the arp table on the server have an entry for the client ? Well, I'm pinging from Parallels to the Mac, then doing the arp command on the Windows/Parallels side. It says there are no entries at all. I did use the -a flag. Sounds like maybe I'm doing it backwards? It's the only way I can do it, since Parallels is my only functioning Windows environment right now. could you send the output of ipconfig on the windows client, and ifconfig on the Mac server. Thanks I'll try to get that tomorrow, I really appreciate the help. I got so tired of running up against walls today that I just shut it all down and went off to play computer games. I'm such a wimp. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
