Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
On 12/7/05 1:12 AM, Geoff Canyon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 2, 2005, at 12:52 PM, Jeanne A. E. DeVoto wrote: Personally, I think the root cause of the problem is the inflexible syntax for non-built-in commands and functions. What I'd like to see is the ability to separate parameters with spaces as well as commas, so you could do something like: on doSomething thisParam,null1,null2,thatParam,null3,null4,theOtherParam -- code here end doSomething called with: doSomething 2 times to fox in stack (the short name of me) This sounds like AppleScript's Prepositional Parameters: http:// snipurl.com/ASPrepositional I love and hate this idea. Love it because, used properly, it would be great. Hate it because it's _hard_ work to define proper syntax, and therefore this feature would almost never be used properly. Actually, since Jeanne was mentioning this for *non-built-in* commands and functions, it would be up to the developer to define and use the syntax. I used to do this in SuperCard, since they allow for spaces to separate params. So I could do this: on mouseUp tell (the long id of btn 1) to start end mouseUp and have a handler that looked like this: on tell pObj,pTo,pCommand send pCommand to pObj end tell Notice that words like to and in would be parameters, but not used (as I don't use pTo above), but it allows for a lot of flexibility in the language. I agree with Jeanne on this... Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Jerry, you seem to have a major attitude problem. You don't get it at all and your 'disgruntled customer' bit doesn't really flow here. Everyone else has been pretty nice I think -- the only real FLAMER here seems to be you!! Stop the bad vibes now - go troll somewhere else, please. sqb Yes, I have been lurking here for months reading the messages on a daily basis. Some of the problems I've encountered in my experimentation with Revolution have indeed been answered here without a need on my part to ask a question. Yes, I purchased Revolution with a specific purpose in mind and, yes, you are correct in deducing that Revolution - despite advertising claims - turned out to be ill-suited for that purpose. .. And with that, all the true believers may continue with their flaming --- never being mindful of how their insubstantial ad hominem strikes those who may wander to this list looking for justification to purchase Revolution. Zealots never seem to understand how they hurt their own cause. Jerry -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
It appears that our friend Jerry Saperstein hates everyone and everything. Maybe in the 'business' too long... It seems he likes the word zealot. A little research shows many complaints and insults on all kinds of forums and lists. Web Quote: By all means, though, avoid Apple,. While individual users tend to be zealots, the company occupies its miniscule market share for many valid reasons. Web Quote: If you want to utterly waste a few hours of your life, read this book. It has absolutely nothing of redemptive value. No plot. No memorable characters. Nothing. Web Quote: I don't intend to be a critic, but the reality is that I am. ... Web Quote: In my opinion, this knowledge must be acquired on a first-hand basis, not third-hand by inquiring of a mail list where the accuracy of the responses is not known. -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Stephen: Other than showing your fanaticism and inability to civily deal with someone who has the temerity to challenge the object of your obsession, what do you hope to accomplish? While it is flattering to imagine you or one of your like-minded zealots Googling me, what is your point? I said Revolution is inadequate for producing business applications. That is my opinion. The comments you selectively quote are also my opinions. Of what relevance are they to my opinion of Revolution? I read a book I didn't like, posted a review and from that you derive I hate everyone and everything? Judging from your behavior, you certainly do appear to be defined by the word zealot, which means somebody who shows excessive enthusiasm for a cause. Jerry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen Barncard Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 2:52 AM To: How to use Revolution Subject: Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? It appears that our friend Jerry Saperstein hates everyone and everything. Maybe in the 'business' too long... It seems he likes the word zealot. A little research shows many complaints and insults on all kinds of forums and lists. Web Quote: By all means, though, avoid Apple,. While individual users tend to be zealots, the company occupies its miniscule market share for many valid reasons. Web Quote: If you want to utterly waste a few hours of your life, read this book. It has absolutely nothing of redemptive value. No plot. No memorable characters. Nothing. Web Quote: I don't intend to be a critic, but the reality is that I am. ... Web Quote: In my opinion, this knowledge must be acquired on a first-hand basis, not third-hand by inquiring of a mail list where the accuracy of the responses is not known. -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Hi Jerry and all others, As you know it, I never reply to mails about Rev philosophy or criticism. And I am very happy that all that occurred when we slept in Europe :-) All that can go round in circles a very long time, going on spoiling this list. The clever will be the first to stop as proposed Richard the sage. Thanks. Best Regards from Paris, Eric Chatonet. Le 6 déc. 05 à 10:13, Jerry Saperstein a écrit : Other than showing your fanaticism and inability to civily deal with someone who has the temerity to challenge the object of your obsession, what do you hope to accomplish? While it is flattering to imagine you or one of your like-minded zealots Googling me, what is your point? I said Revolution is inadequate for producing business applications. That is my opinion. The comments you selectively quote are also my opinions. Of what relevance are they to my opinion of Revolution? I read a book I didn't like, posted a review and from that you derive I hate everyone and everything? Judging from your behavior, you certainly do appear to be defined by the word zealot, which means somebody who shows excessive enthusiasm for a cause. So Smart Software For institutions, companies and associations Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc. Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch Free plugins and tutorials on my website Web sitehttp://www.sosmartsoftware.com/ Email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Phone33 (0)1 43 31 77 62 Mobile33 (0)6 20 74 50 86 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Man, This list is really getting corny... No more talk about xtalk or rev stuff. It's been 3 weeks im deleting nearly every message in my 3 mailboxes (and the new spam)... Business applications? Man, i run a bank's storage systems with rev for some 2000 users everyday since 5 years!!! Never a challenge that can't be fixed in minutes... Ah yes, and Rev does the reports, stats and graphs for the managers... And there's web reporting and more too... It's true that a few here in the list do not like criticisms of Rev and Rev doesn't say anything to soothe the complainers, ahem, users in trouble... In the meanwhile the wise users create bugzillas, pay for licenses (over and over) in the hope of a quick fix - while others in the list will devote lore and prose to help find a solution - which happens nearly every time!!! But even as one of the worst complainers in the revMailist history, i haven't seen a valid peep of why rev is not a good environment of business applications - (and yes tables are easy to make in rev - easier than in any other language i've tried - i've tried about 20 or so...) So, let's get back to scripting! Ignore the loud berzerkers who bring nothing we can't use or help with... Ask yourself, is it productive? Fanatics we are and we love what we do. We do it with heart and mind. Something which this list is not doing anymore with the noise ratio so high! Xavier == big sig intentional... - To make communications with Clearstream easier, Clearstream has recently changed the email address format to conform with industry standards. The new format is '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'. Visit us at http://www.clearstream.com IMPORTANT MESSAGE Internet communications are not secure and therefore Clearstream International does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Any views expressed in this e-mail are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Clearstream International or of any of its affiliates or subsidiaries. END OF DISCLAIMER ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Printing limitations [was Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?]
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 21:00:58 -0800, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] In OS X, Mac Classic, and Windows, it's common to define the parameters for the print job in the Print window, with some settings defined in Page Setup. Rev gives you access to both: answer printer -- brings up the OS standard Page Setup dialog, which retains settings during the current session open printing with dialog -- initiates a print job with the Print Job dialog presented first. You can also print without the Print Job dialog by ommitting with dialog. If you filter the Transcript Dictionary with print you'll find a lot of properties which govern printing. You can set these up without ever showing the Page Setup dialog, including margins, orientation, scale, and more. The one weakness Rev has is integrating its internal settings with the OS print dialogs. It would be nice to be able to save and restore Page Setup info as we can with QuickTime transitions using answer effect. The difficulty is that while there's only one QuickTime API, the APIs for printing vary broadly and deeply from OS to OS. This isn't to say it wouldn't be worth pursuing (hence the Bugzilla request for it), but at least it helps you understand why that's not in place just yet. Once Classic support is dropped from the engine (no, I've heard of no plans, just wishful thinking for the future), printing can be greatly enhanced as OS X's printing architecture is more like the rest of the world and Classic's is from outerspace. Yes, more comprehensive interaction with printers is sorely missed and would be great... what I find worst about the present situation is that I can't tell the true page size available to the marking engine of a given printer, i.e. the minimum margins/maximum printable area: this means that I can't script the design of a printout to exactly fill a page and I can't allow the user to set margins without some danger that the printing will be cropped. Some perfectly respectable Mac apps (GraphicConverter for example) seem to know where to get this info from regardless of the printer driver being used, and there are many examples on Windows too... anyway it's been Bugzilla'd (5 May 2004, still UNCO, 57 votes at the last count) and I'm still hoping for a result. Graham Graham Samuel / The Living Fossil Co. / UK and France ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Just had to say I know I like a *bit* of a moan now and then, hey this is *way* over the top! I have just one question: Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour? Think everyone one should take a chill-pill comptemplate 1200 baud modems for a while! All the Best Dave ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Richard Gaskin wrote: I haven't used M.Y.O.B. in years, but recall it being a good program. But I'm surprised neither of these has ever asked you to tell them what printing you're using. Just for the record, I've used MYOB for years as my accounting program, and it puts up the print job dialog before every print job. So strike that one off the list. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
On 12/5/05 10:16 PM, Robert Brenstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally I don't think Revolution is suitable for such applications and no one here has actually provided unassailable evidence that Revolution has been used for such. Jerry Do you really believe it or are you just saying it to heat up the discussion? Discussion of suitability in such general terms is totally pointless. If you have something very specific in mind, lay out the specs and people will tell you whether it is possible and what the bottlenecks will be. Revolution is no less and no more suitable for business applications than CodeWarrior H. or RealBasic First RealBasic has many more data base capabilities, PRINTING. Table grids. . Each has its strong and weak points, applications where it shines and no-no areas. If Rev can't do what you want or can't do as well as you want it, just find another development environment. For an example of a commercial product, visit www.fourthworld.com. Their flagship product is made in Revolution. www.gypsyware.com has several shareware games made with Revolution. There are more. However, I venture to say that a bulk of commercial development are custom or vertical applications developed for specific clients. Robert ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
On 12/5/05 10:20 PM, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jerry Saperstein wrote: But your point is valid: Revolution is not well suited for business needs. Business is pretty broad, and no doubt one could defined it in ways that might make Rev look insufficient. E.g. A heavy distribution wholesaler, accounting package, a big retailer But evidently it can be defined in other ways as well, since many business make, sell, and buy Rev-based apps, and report a high degree of satisfaction and a strong ROI at all levels of that chain. I'm sure you've seen Rev's Case Studies page: http://www.runrev.com/section/case_studies/ True, RunRev's done a crappy job of cataloging all of the professional apps out there, but even as a small cross-section there's some interesting stuff there. For sure it bring some recognition. Hershel ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
On 12/5/05 11:06 PM, Sarah Reichelt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wow! What an amazing set of conclusions for anyone to reach! I've searched the mailing list archives for your name and haven't found any previous posts from you, but I guess you must have been lurking for several years in order to feel competent to make such sweeping statements. Criticism of Revolution generally apparently is generally disapproved of here. I've seen a number of valid criticisms dismissed in the same way as yours have been. I think you will find that valid criticisms ARE well received, with the keyword being valid. Most of us here want Rev to keep improving so it is in our interests to locate bugs and have them logged in bugzilla so they can be fixed. E.g. Bug number 670 opened on sep,03 status assigned... And ? Ok lets say it takes some time but as of current, thanks to Altuit for the grid which without it your stuck. Bug number 1619 opened on may ,04 status unconfirmed . And ? However as you will have seen many, many times on this list, most times when someone complains about a problem, it is in fact an error on their part. At other times, it is a limitation of Revolution and those of us who have some experience in the area will always try to provide a workaround. The final case is where there is a genuine bug with no workaround, in which case a bugzilla entry is always encouraged. If you read the responses to Herschel's emails, you will find that this is what has happened. Hershel ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
On 12/6/05 12:18 AM, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jerry Saperstein wrote: Unremarkably ...yet he goes on to remark: those who have been the quickest to flame me appear to be those with pecuniary interest of one sort or another in Revolution, whether as investors, developers of Revolution based tools or vendors of third-party products and services. Obviously such people are immediately threatened by any criticism of the source of some part of their cash flow. Maybe it's not so deep. Could it be simply that your post was rude? Is that how you communicate with all of your vendors? All anyone's asking for here is a little professionalism. Dropping in from lurkerland with your only post being a sweeping flamefest is not likely to win friends and influence people, in any community. Prove me wrong: drop into any other forum and tell everyone there that they're either misled or liars and that their products don't exist, and let us know how that works out for you. FWIW, I have a number of long-term clients with projects so substantial that I don't expect taking on new clients for a very long time. And yes, I do make tools for Rev, but I give them away. In short, I make no money from helping scripters here. I just like working with Rev, and if my experience can help other people enjoy it more so much the better. And don't bother playing violin about ad hominem attacks: your first post was insulting, your second one more so, and you still haven't bothered to address your own central argument by defining what you mean by business apps. This conversation can become productive and helpful as soon as you choose it to be. I look forward to starting over tabla rasa and seeing what we can do to help you ship your app. I'm impressed. Hershel -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Discussion of suitability in such general terms is totally pointless. If you have something very specific in mind, lay out the specs and people will tell you whether it is possible and what the bottlenecks will be. Revolution is no less and no more suitable for business applications than CodeWarrior H. or RealBasic First RealBasic has many more data base capabilities, PRINTING. Table grids. . Each has its strong and weak points, applications where it shines and no-no areas. If Rev can't do what you want or can't do as well as you want it, just find another development environment. Don't neatpick on specific words I wrote. See the overall message. Use RB or else for applications not suitable for Rev. Nobody says Rev is for all. I myself ocassionally use C or Pascal in CodeWarrior. Heck, there is even one application that I still do in Hypercard because Rev can't do it :) Robert ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
On 12/6/05 11:55 AM, J. Landman Gay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard Gaskin wrote: I haven't used M.Y.O.B. in years, but recall it being a good program. But I'm surprised neither of these has ever asked you to tell them what printing you're using. Just for the record, I've used MYOB for years as my accounting program, and it puts up the print job dialog before every print job. So strike that one off the list. Well, it may asks you what printer how many copies, but not portrait or landscape and so on Hershel ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Hershel Fisch wrote: On 12/6/05 11:55 AM, J. Landman Gay [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard Gaskin wrote: I haven't used M.Y.O.B. in years, but recall it being a good program. But I'm surprised neither of these has ever asked you to tell them what printing you're using. Just for the record, I've used MYOB for years as my accounting program, and it puts up the print job dialog before every print job. So strike that one off the list. Well, it may asks you what printer how many copies, but not portrait or landscape and so on Those come though Page Setup on Mac OS, but they're part of the standard Print dialog in Windows. That's part of this issue: not only is the user interface radically differrent between platforms, but the underlying APIs even more so. It would be interesting to hear some input from RunRev on their plans for integration with OS page settings. In the meantime, Transcript gives you control over orientation, scaling, etc., so you can print without relying on the OS Page Setup or Print dialogs. Have you played with those options much? You might like what you find. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Hershel Fisch wrote: On 12/5/05 10:20 PM, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Business is pretty broad, and no doubt one could defined it in ways that might make Rev look insufficient. E.g. A heavy distribution wholesaler, accounting package, a big retailer The medical software I've been building is being distributed by the one of largest publishers of professional medical media. The qualitative analysis package I've made has been carried by the world leader in qualitative publishing. But accounting? That's not a technical challenge as much as it is a marketing one, for all the reasons outlined in Moore's Crossing the Chasm and Inside the Tornado. In short, QuickBooks has some 80% of the market, with MYOB and Microsoft Money taking up most of the rest. Any remaining potential for a profitable new entry is in specialized sub-markets, and we have one member of this list who's done just that, making a business accounting package specifically for the rental industry. That may be why you don't see leading accounting packages (or word processors or HTML authoring tools or photo enhancement tools or the other major categories) done in Rev or BASIC or even Python for that matter, no matter how capable these languages are: The sweet spot for development tools at this level is in vertical markets. While it's possible for something like Dreamweaver to be made in Rev with externals used for computationally-intensive portions (esp. if they used the embedded engine option which exposes deeper APIs), the bigger hurdle is internal politics (and the multi-million-dollar frameworks these companies use internally). I've done enough work with Fortune 500 companies to understand that there are many drivers beyond ROI for their tool choices. And it pretty much takes a Fortune 500 company to compete in today's software market for the major application categories. But then there's everything else, the thousands of vertical-market categories we address today, and the million others waiting to be discovered. That's where tools like Rev and RealBASIC get used. As an aside, it's worth noting that for many years a number of helper apps that shipped with Quicken were written in SuperCard; might still be true for all I know, haven't used Quicken in some time. Like those of us here who make a living from developing with Rev, Intuit recognized the ROI benefits of using an xTalk, and exploited that well. Maybe one day the engineering team at AOL will realize they're wasting about 85% of their development budget by not using Rev. The AOL client is a natural fit for Rev, but good luck even scheduling that meeting. But evidently it can be defined in other ways as well, since many business make, sell, and buy Rev-based apps, and report a high degree of satisfaction and a strong ROI at all levels of that chain. I'm sure you've seen Rev's Case Studies page: http://www.runrev.com/section/case_studies/ True, RunRev's done a crappy job of cataloging all of the professional apps out there, but even as a small cross-section there's some interesting stuff there. For sure it bring some recognition. Imagine how much more it would bring if it were anywhere close to complete. There's a *lot* of Rev-based apps out there -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Richard, I really enjoyed the rest of your response. I agree that the vertical markets are just at the tip of the iceberg. I have found a very nice spot in my work and am trying to expand my understanding of how to approach a larger market with it. Rev has proved itself as a very useful tool in my RAD work and has pushed DIrector out the door, Director really was not the right tool for this work anyway. It is good at what it does but it still took our best Director Guru months of work to do what I was able to do in just a week in Rev and I was only using Rev for around 5 months when I started. By no means a Guru at all. I fell into this as the need arose and Rev met the challenge very nicely. Sure I had a few glitches along the way what with mouseDown hogging all of the messages and Unicode not working with text search filters. But at least it seems the Unicode will get better as time goes on and I have yet to figure out the altBrowser usage but it is still on my horizon. Now if someone at Runtime would see the usefulness of at least one flavor of MouseDown passing it's message along instead of back to the original target, or a new penDown message etc., then I could really start building solutions for the PDA and SmartPhone industry. My solution worked but had a level of complexity that was not needed in my opinion. I feel I could do an even better job if the mouseDown/penDown worked the way it does on a PDA/phone. And the more experience I get with REV then the more solutions I can put out. This market is just exploding. The palm had tens of thousands of downloads for UI enhancements and if I could do the same with my ideas in SmartPhones it would open it up for many Revbuilders. Back to the reason for my post. I am under strict NDAs and can not share any of my work yet. I would absolutely love to share my work with you guys and with REV just to get some feed back. But I can't the way things are now. Do you have any suggestions for people in my situation for getting/giving REV the credit? I don't even know how much I can say about my project let alone show. What do you think? Tom On Dec 6, 2005, at 5:01 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Imagine how much more it would bring if it were anywhere close to complete. There's a *lot* of Rev-based apps out there -- Richard Gaskin ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
I haven't used M.Y.O.B. in years, but recall it being a good program. But I'm surprised neither of these has ever asked you to tell them what printing you're using. Just for the record, I've used MYOB for years as my accounting program, and it puts up the print job dialog before every print job. So strike that one off the list. As an aside to this, one of the most frequently used pieces of business software I have ever written is a search engine for MYOB. It has the most useless search facility ever made and if you use it to order thousands of different products from hundreds of suppliers, you are lost, unless you can remember exactly what you entered. For example, if you bought Plastic sheet, acrylic, you can't search for acrylic, you can only search from the beginning of the string. My utility uses AppleScript to grab all the data from MYOB periodically, imports it in to the Rev app, then allows proper filtering. Cheers, Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Thomas McGrath III, before get started I want to thank you for posting your pics to frappr. Your two pictures are a great compliment to one another: one looks like the serious philosopher, the other like a kid having so much fun he might burst. Good stuff. :) This hit home with me, as I've wrestled with mouse-message issues myself in some apps: Sure I had a few glitches along the way what with mouseDown hogging all of the messages and Unicode not working with text search filters. But at least it seems the Unicode will get better as time goes on and I have yet to figure out the altBrowser usage but it is still on my horizon. Now if someone at Runtime would see the usefulness of at least one flavor of MouseDown passing it's message along instead of back to the original target, or a new penDown message etc., then I could really start building solutions for the PDA and SmartPhone industry. My solution worked but had a level of complexity that was not needed in my opinion. I feel I could do an even better job if the mouseDown/penDown worked the way it does on a PDA/phone. And the more experience I get with REV then the more solutions I can put out. It can be tricky to implement, but have you considered changing your mouseDown handler to a mouseMove handler instead? That way you still get other messages in between mouseMove messages. I had to do something like that for part of an app recently, and while I was at first afraid it would be too computationally expenses I was impressed with Rev's graceful handling of whatever I threw at it. I have a lot happening on mouseMove, and haven't yet run into a wall with it. This market is just exploding. The palm had tens of thousands of downloads for UI enhancements and if I could do the same with my ideas in SmartPhones it would open it up for many Revbuilders. Let's see if we can make that happen. My clients would kill me if I took time right now to even look at anything other than their code, but hopefully others here are more organized and in a better position to help with some code review. In the meantime, any snippets you can share here for refinement are always a good time -- I love watching how different minds contribute to refining algos. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Richard, Thanks, (grinning) I had fun with frapper. I did do a send in time message from a mouseDown that then checked for both mouseDowns and mouseUps during repeats and if neither existed then it stopped the loop. That part was fine and worked like a charm. The part that would have been less complex would have been the figuring out what the target was/is at any given moment. I had to do all kinds of checks to keep it right, whereas if the mouseDown, over the target and then up on a new target message didn't go back to mouseDown but rather to the target it was over then my job would have been real smooth. It worked but was more complex than needed. This approach left mouseMove open for other things in the program which I needed too. I am afraid at this point (after I signed the new NDA) I would need to have whoever looked at the project sign an NDA (maybe they would go for this). With the recent thread describing what Rev can't do I wanted to show some of the things it could do. Tom On Dec 6, 2005, at 6:18 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Thomas McGrath III, before get started I want to thank you for posting your pics to frappr. Your two pictures are a great compliment to one another: one looks like the serious philosopher, the other like a kid having so much fun he might burst. Good stuff. :) This hit home with me, as I've wrestled with mouse-message issues myself in some apps: ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
On Dec 2, 2005, at 12:52 PM, Jeanne A. E. DeVoto wrote: Personally, I think the root cause of the problem is the inflexible syntax for non-built-in commands and functions. What I'd like to see is the ability to separate parameters with spaces as well as commas, so you could do something like: on doSomething thisParam,null1,null2,thatParam,null3,null4,theOtherParam -- code here end doSomething called with: doSomething 2 times to fox in stack (the short name of me) This sounds like AppleScript's Prepositional Parameters: http:// snipurl.com/ASPrepositional I love and hate this idea. Love it because, used properly, it would be great. Hate it because it's _hard_ work to define proper syntax, and therefore this feature would almost never be used properly. That said, I do think there are obvious (to me, at least!) syntax enhancements to Transcript. The recent suggestions regarding querying boolean properties are a good example: if field 1 is [not] [visible|hidden] then ... while button 1 is [not] hilited ... But there is much more that could be done. I've previously suggested this, but a macro system would allow us to experiment with syntax before committing to it in the engine. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Well said, Bob! Getting Rev into the sounds familiar category would be good first step - but that means having it either marketed more aggressively, or it means getting in through the back door. And then what's going to be,if a professional programmer can't even write a simple print without the user should have to intervene to choose printers and styles and and Or if wanted to add a timer constant running from when the application is launched. Rev is good for games or so. Sorry. Rev is not at the state of being used for commercial business applications. Just my 2 cents, Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
On Dec 5, 2005, at 6:05 PM, Hershel Fisch wrote: And then what's going to be,if a professional programmer can't even write a simple print without the user should have to intervene to choose printers and styles and and Or if wanted to add a timer constant running from when the application is launched. Rev is good for games or so. Sorry. Rev is not at the state of being used for commercial business applications. Hershel, many developers here deployed more than one business application built with Rev. I deployed a project manager that was network savvy and database aware. As for your print problem, well, it's good manager to ask the user for printers, here I have three printers, one real and two networked ones, I expect that software will ask me where to print. I don't know what's the problem with your timer issue, I use lots of timers, the send in time function is as easy as a timer can get, it's not safe for Real Time stuff like medical appliances but Rev does not run on any operating system that targets real time machines such as medical ones and sensor engineering ones I have seen more business applications being deployed with Rev than games, sorry to spoil your hopes... Revolution is as safe as any good language for business applications, you have access to database, networking and encryption, the only missing options is thread spawning but we can do a lot of things without multiple threads, most business apps don't need multiple threads beyond the message mechanics. cheers andre ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
On 12/5/05 2:05 PM, Hershel Fisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And then what's going to be,if a professional programmer can't even write a simple print without the user should have to intervene to choose printers and styles and and Or if wanted to add a timer constant running from when the application is launched. Rev is good for games or so. Sorry. Rev is not at the state of being used for commercial business applications. Hershel, First of all, just because you ran into a couple of issues that Rev has difficulty with doesn't mean that it can't be used for commercial business applications... I have worked on several large-scale vertical market business applications done in Rev (including a very successful multi-module personal information management application for the entertainment industry) and they are doing just fine, thank you very much. And I know many Rev developers that have put out commercial business applications as well. One could say the same thing about Rev and games: it doesn't have a 3D engine so you can't use it to build games... a blanket statement based on one or two features does no one a service. Each person needs to evaluate Rev for themselves to determine applicability to their projects at hand. Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
And then what's going to be,if a professional programmer can't even write a simple print without the user should have to intervene to choose printers and styles and and Or if wanted to add a timer constant running from when the application is launched. Rev is good for games or so. Sorry. Rev is not at the state of being used for commercial business applications. I would say the exact opposite :-) I have several Rev apps in constant use as commercial business applications, but I don't see that Rev has the in-built capabilities to produce a modern looking game. As regards the two problems you have encountered, while I agree that I would love Rev to have the ability to store print settings and implement them programmatically, there is no avoiding the initial task of asking the user to select their printer and it's settings. There is no way you can anticipate every printer in use and as many people are connected to more than one printer (especially in a business environment), you should not even assume that they want to use their default printer. As for a timer constant, what is the problem with that? I have one app that has a large number of timed events that have to happen when appropriate and then get re-scheduled. I never have any trouble with this, so maybe you need to post your scripts and see if we can help you sort that one out. Regards, Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Hershel Fisch wrote: And then what's going to be,if a professional programmer can't even write a simple print without the user should have to intervene to choose printers and styles and and Styles? What do you want to do? Or if wanted to add a timer constant running from when the application is launched. Timers work well. You might givem 'em a try. What do you want to do? Rev is not at the state of being used for commercial business applications. LOL. I know a great many businesses using Rev apps internally and publishing them for others who are making quite a solid profit. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
On 12/5/05 7:17 PM, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, First of all I appreciate every body's comments, I definitely wasn't trying to be some sort of nasty or ... Hershel Fisch wrote: And then what's going to be,if a professional programmer can't even write a simple print without the user should have to intervene to choose printers and styles and and Styles? What do you want to do? Meaning, color or gray scale on color printers, print quality on inkjets; best, normal or draft, orientation; portrait or landscape and so on. Selecting a printer goes along because checks go to the metallic printer and other things go elsewhere, ok. I never saw in Quick Books or in M.Y.O.B. Or any other off shelf application the necessity for these settings selections. For a custom program I also sell my client the Brooklyn bridge. (I mean not the Brooklyn bridge, because I bought it already LOL). Or if wanted to add a timer constant running from when the application is launched. Timers work well. You might givem 'em a try. What do you want to do? Maybe I don't know how to use it, but for what I need it I don¹t see a way it should work. E.g. My app. Gets turned off probably ... I don't know when, very seldom. They are many meetings appointments, schedules that are entered and the system has to pop em out as the time goes whithout button pressing and at the same time that same app. Is being used heavy for other things memo's, invoicing,inventory and so on. My whole business runes on that one application. I thought to use separate stand alones for certain tasks but wouldn't do the trick. I'm big enough to admit if I'm wrong but it has to be proven to me first. Thanks, Hershel Fisch Rev is not at the state of being used for commercial business applications. LOL. I know a great many businesses using Rev apps internally and publishing them for others who are making quite a solid profit. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Thanks, Hershel Fisch Rev is not at the state of being used for commercial business applications. And I forgot to mention the lacking of a normal table fld lets not discuss it because my blood pressure goes up. By the way thanks to altuit saved my life and the reporting thanks to Jan. luckily RR is such a fun and easy to use language and where it has it strength its a bulldozer, I definitely appreciate it, but. Sorry, Hershel Fisch ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Or if wanted to add a timer constant running from when the application is launched. Timers work well. You might givem 'em a try. What do you want to do? Maybe I don't know how to use it, but for what I need it I don¹t see a way it should work. E.g. My app. Gets turned off probably ... I don't know when, very seldom. They are many meetings appointments, schedules that are entered and the system has to pop em out as the time goes whithout button pressing and at the same time that same app. Is being used heavy for other things memo's, invoicing,inventory and so on. My whole business runes on that one application. I thought to use separate stand alones for certain tasks but wouldn't do the trick. I'm big enough to admit if I'm wrong but it has to be proven to me first. Well I think there is enough eveidence on this list to suggest that what you are trying to do can be done, but we need more information from you before we can prove it in your particular case. Do you use send .. in time to trigger your timers? When I do this I have a regular routine that checks if all the requisite timers are in the pending messages queue and schedules them if not. This check routine can be triggered by any number of things - mouseMove, resume, resumeStack, openStack etc etc, as well as happening periodically. I find that running in the IDE does sometimes cause messages to get turned off, especially if there is a bug in the handler being called, however in a standalone app, I have NEVER had any problems keeping multiple timed events all happening when required. Give us more information and I'm sure we will be able to help. Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Hershel: Criticism of Revolution generally apparently is generally disapproved of here. I've seen a number of valid criticisms dismissed in the same way as yours have been. But your point is valid: Revolution is not well suited for business needs. I see a number of people who claim that have or know of business applications built with Revolution, yet the references are never specific and, oddly enough, none of them (save one) are commercial applications that you could download an evaluation copy of. The one exception I know of is the upgrade of a product called IdeaFisher. I downloaded the eval, allegedly built with Revolution, and it immediately crashed. I'd love to see a referral to a commercial business oriented product built with Revolution that I could download as an eval. I don't mean relatively trivial apps like ButtonGadget (or whatever it's name is) or a plaything like If Monks Had Macs. I mean a real live business oriented applications. Personally I don't think Revolution is suitable for such applications and no one here has actually provided unassailable evidence that Revolution has been used for such. Jerry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hershel Fisch Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 7:50 PM To: How to use Revolution Subject: Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? Thanks, Hershel Fisch Rev is not at the state of being used for commercial business applications. And I forgot to mention the lacking of a normal table fld lets not discuss it because my blood pressure goes up. By the way thanks to altuit saved my life and the reporting thanks to Jan. luckily RR is such a fun and easy to use language and where it has it strength its a bulldozer, I definitely appreciate it, but. Sorry, Hershel Fisch ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Jerry, I wrote both eXpertSystem (based upon IdeaFisher, but NOT Ideafisher, which is probably what you downloaded and crashed) and ButtonGadget. Interesting is your incorrect assessment that ButtonGadget was trivial. It took many more hours of programming than eXpertSystem. BTW, we have literally thousands of downloads of both ButtonGadget and eXpertSystem, and it appears you are one of the very few who can't get it to run. H. Altuit also has Hemingway, a full-blown content management system which has been rewritten in Rev and performs for our customers each and every day. I'm sorry you haven't taken the time to adequately look at the number of commercial apps available made with Revolution. I suspect one of the problems is the lack of good case studies at the RunRev website. Hopefully these will be fixed in the future. Interesting is your claim, Revolution is not well suited for business needs. I wasn't aware of your expert knowledge of Rev capabilities, but thanks for pointing it out to me! best, Chipp Jerry Saperstein wrote: Hershel: But your point is valid: Revolution is not well suited for business needs. I see a number of people who claim that have or know of business applications built with Revolution, yet the references are never specific and, oddly enough, none of them (save one) are commercial applications that you could download an evaluation copy of. The one exception I know of is the upgrade of a product called IdeaFisher. I downloaded the eval, allegedly built with Revolution, and it immediately crashed. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Jerry Saperstein wrote: Criticism of Revolution generally apparently is generally disapproved of here. I've seen a number of valid criticisms dismissed in the same way as yours have been. Criticism of specific features is often valid and usually results in two responses, neither of which is dismissal: - a request to log it in Bugzilla - an exploration of the goal so we can help find alternative solutions to move your product development forward in the meantime What gets dismissed is the notion that because one specific thing isn't in place the way someone wants it that whole ranges of software categories are impossible. That's like saying that because my car doesn't have GPS I can't drive it to the store. It's simply a non sequitur, and somewhere between insulting and laughable to those of us who make applications for business environments. If these assertions stuck to specifics the argument would be supportable and the conversation more productive. But to dismiss all of our work with a wave of the hand and a harumph will likely yield the same in response. Respect is earned for the low price of showing some to others. But your point is valid: Revolution is not well suited for business needs. Business is pretty broad, and no doubt one could defined it in ways that might make Rev look insufficient. But evidently it can be defined in other ways as well, since many business make, sell, and buy Rev-based apps, and report a high degree of satisfaction and a strong ROI at all levels of that chain. I'm sure you've seen Rev's Case Studies page: http://www.runrev.com/section/case_studies/ True, RunRev's done a crappy job of cataloging all of the professional apps out there, but even as a small cross-section there's some interesting stuff there. My humble WebMerge app is used by Macworld Magazine, BMI Music Publishing, the American Bar Association, and the US Library of Congress. The HyperRESEARCH product I develop for Boston-based ResearchWare, Inc. has multiple licenses in use at Microsoft and dozens of universities. Last year I built an Internet-based CMS for doctors on three continents to contribute editorial content to a medical database to be published in early '06, with both the CMS and the final product built in Rev. Over the summer I built a tool for use in pediatric emergency clinics for calculating dosages and equipment sizes for patients. Chipp can tell you stories of apps he's built wih Jerry Daniels for the Texas Department of Corrections, and quite a few medium- to big-businesses use his Hemmingway CMS. Ken Ray develops the most comprehensive PIM focused on the needs of talent agents, used by many of Hollywood's top agencies. Jacque Gay has made tools for law firms, and a medical database that calculates drug interactions. Phil Davis contributed to the world's most comprehensive holistic database used in hundreds of clinics across the nation, and is currently working on an app for the lumber industry. When you see the movie Narnia, note the tents -- those were made by a company in New Zealand who's one of the world's largest tent manufacturers, whose business is run on a system built in Rev by Paul Looney. I once worked with a company that made sales presentation systems in Rev for Sun Computing. And that's just off the top of my head. There are many, many more. Sure, each of these apps could be enhanced in all sorts of ways to make them even better, and enhancements to Rev would make it that much easier. But these apps exist, so evidently it's possible to make them. To move the conversation back to a productive focus, what specific challenges have you faced, and how may we help you overcome them? -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Personally I don't think Revolution is suitable for such applications and no one here has actually provided unassailable evidence that Revolution has been used for such. Jerry Do you really believe it or are you just saying it to heat up the discussion? Discussion of suitability in such general terms is totally pointless. If you have something very specific in mind, lay out the specs and people will tell you whether it is possible and what the bottlenecks will be. Revolution is no less and no more suitable for business applications than CodeWarrior or RealBasic. Each has its strong and weak points, applications where it shines and no-no areas. If Rev can't do what you want or can't do as well as you want it, just find another development environment. For an example of a commercial product, visit www.fourthworld.com. Their flagship product is made in Revolution. www.gypsyware.com has several shareware games made with Revolution. There are more. However, I venture to say that a bulk of commercial development are custom or vertical applications developed for specific clients. Robert ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
I don't make commercial apps for sale but I do write prototypes for development on PDAs and cell phones. Revolution does exactly what I need to make a living with it as our primary tool. Tom P.S. I don't see why you need to be rude calling if monks a plaything and ButtonGadget a trivial app, I'm sure you could find a way to be a little more respectful of your fellow programmers here and there hard earned efforts. On Dec 5, 2005, at 9:30 PM, Jerry Saperstein rudely wrote: I don't mean relatively trivial apps like ButtonGadget (or whatever it's name is) or a plaything like If Monks Had Macs. I mean a real live business oriented applications. Personally I don't think Revolution is suitable for such applications and no one here has actually provided unassailable evidence that Revolution has been used for such. Jerry ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Wow! What an amazing set of conclusions for anyone to reach! I've searched the mailing list archives for your name and haven't found any previous posts from you, but I guess you must have been lurking for several years in order to feel competent to make such sweeping statements. Criticism of Revolution generally apparently is generally disapproved of here. I've seen a number of valid criticisms dismissed in the same way as yours have been. I think you will find that valid criticisms ARE well received, with the keyword being valid. Most of us here want Rev to keep improving so it is in our interests to locate bugs and have them logged in bugzilla so they can be fixed. However as you will have seen many, many times on this list, most times when someone complains about a problem, it is in fact an error on their part. At other times, it is a limitation of Revolution and those of us who have some experience in the area will always try to provide a workaround. The final case is where there is a genuine bug with no workaround, in which case a bugzilla entry is always encouraged. If you read the responses to Herschel's emails, you will find that this is what has happened. But your point is valid: Revolution is not well suited for business needs. I see a number of people who claim that have or know of business applications built with Revolution, yet the references are never specific and, oddly enough, none of them (save one) are commercial applications that you could download an evaluation copy of. The one exception I know of is the upgrade of a product called IdeaFisher. I downloaded the eval, allegedly built with Revolution, and it immediately crashed. You are confusing two different things here. I write many business applications, but they are not commercially available. They are custom programs produced for specific businesses and are not for sale. They run 24/7 and are extremely reliable. Added to that was the fact that I was able to produce them quickly and can maintain them easily. I'd love to see a referral to a commercial business oriented product built with Revolution that I could download as an eval. I don't mean relatively trivial apps like ButtonGadget (or whatever it's name is) or a plaything like If Monks Had Macs. I mean a real live business oriented applications. I may be unusual here, but I think of business apps as MUCH easier to write than a beautiful entertainment piece like If monks.. The interface requirements for business software doesn't have to be enormously eye-catching and the program logic is normally quite simple. Games programming with fast moving graphics, sound, music etc seems vastly harder to me. Personally I don't think Revolution is suitable for such applications and no one here has actually provided unassailable evidence that Revolution has been used for such. It may be that you have a particular business application in mind and have decided for some reason that Rev cannot do what you need. However instead of assuming that Rev just cannot do business apps, do you think it might be more polite to check first and see if anyone else has encountered the problems that you have been defeated by? Perhaps someone here can help, or perhaps you will be able to do the Rev community a service by pointing out some problem that needs to be fixed. Whatever you decide, I think you will find your experiences on the list go along much better if you show a bit more respect for the other members of the list. Regards, Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Sarah: Since yours is the most reasonable of the flames posted so far, I'll reply to you and consolidate a few comments on the others. Yes, I have been lurking here for months reading the messages on a daily basis. Some of the problems I've encountered in my experimentation with Revolution have indeed been answered here without a need on my part to ask a question. Yes, I purchased Revolution with a specific purpose in mind and, yes, you are correct in deducing that Revolution - despite advertising claims - turned out to be ill-suited for that purpose. My most serious complaint about Revolution is the documentation. In my opinion, it is deplorable and the Shafer book is a bad joke. As a matter of preference and I think commonsense, I prefer products that are well-documented. I simply don't have the time to waste in dealing with products that require a prodigious amount of time to simply learn whether it's a failure of technique or the product at the base of the problem. A review of this list demonstrates that such time-wasting discussions are part and parcel of the Revolution experience. Anyone reading this list or using Revolution knows the product has many bugs or, as I'm sure some of the zealots here would claim, undocumented features. I've been in the technology industry since the mid-1960s and have seen many products attract a zealous following who vociferously attacked any critic of their love. Many of these failed products still have their adherents years after the product failed its most critical test: acceptance in the marketplace. Yes, I know: the zealots will immediately trot out their arguments that Beta truly was superior to VHS;that the Commodore OS was the best of them; that the Newton still remains unmatched. The counter-argument is that the market says otherwise. The zealots are quick to inform you that the marketplace is wrong, just as anyone who voted for candidate X or owns product Z is dumb. Unremarkably, those who have been the quickest to flame me appear to be those with pecuniary interest of one sort or another in Revolution, whether as investors, developers of Revolution based tools or vendors of third-party products and services. Obviously such people are immediately threatened by any criticism of the source of some part of their cash flow. It is noteworthy that there are so many references to applications developed with Revolution that are inaccessible to others. I question the wisdom of a client who would buy an application built with a tool that has a small following, requires special knowledge to use and may not exist within the near future. The bottom line is that apparently virtually no broadly marketed applications have been developed with Revolution. If the tool is as good as its enthusiasts claim, why is that? As I said earlier, criticism of Revolution is not welcome on this list. Certain people, unlike you Sarah, can't deal with any criticism civily, as Chipp Walters, from whom I've purchased a product, has demonstrated both in his public posting here and in a private e-mail to me. This kind of resistance, I've found, is usually a good indicator of an insularity which often leads to the failure of a product. I've asked the folks at RunTime to honor their promise of a refund. The zealots here have convinced me that this yet another product that started off with promise but will fail of the critical test of marketplace acceptance. And with that, all the true believers may continue with their flaming --- never being mindful of how their insubstantial ad hominem strikes those who may wander to this list looking for justification to purchase Revolution. Zealots never seem to understand how they hurt their own cause. Jerry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sarah Reichelt Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:06 PM To: How to use Revolution Subject: Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? Wow! What an amazing set of conclusions for anyone to reach! I've searched the mailing list archives for your name and haven't found any previous posts from you, but I guess you must have been lurking for several years in order to feel competent to make such sweeping statements. Criticism of Revolution generally apparently is generally disapproved of here. I've seen a number of valid criticisms dismissed in the same way as yours have been. I think you will find that valid criticisms ARE well received, with the keyword being valid. Most of us here want Rev to keep improving so it is in our interests to locate bugs and have them logged in bugzilla so they can be fixed. However as you will have seen many, many times on this list, most times when someone complains about a problem, it is in fact an error on their part. At other times, it is a limitation of Revolution and those of us who have some experience in the area will always try
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
You wouldn't be the Jerry Saperstein of Font Bank fame who was accussed back in the 90's of stealing clipart intellectual property and reselling it...would you? If so, how'd that turn out? http://www.60-seconds.com/articles/54.html Just wondering. -Chipp Jerry Saperstein wrote: I've been in the technology industry since the mid-1960s and have seen many products attract a zealous following who vociferously attacked any critic of their love. Many of these failed products still have their adherents years after the product failed its most critical test: acceptance in the marketplace. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Hershel Fisch wrote: On 12/5/05 7:17 PM, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Styles? What do you want to do? Meaning, color or gray scale on color printers, print quality on inkjets; best, normal or draft, orientation; portrait or landscape and so on. Selecting a printer goes along because checks go to the metallic printer and other things go elsewhere, ok. I never saw in Quick Books or in M.Y.O.B. Or any other off shelf application the necessity for these settings selections. QuickBooks is a special case: Intuit spent three years studying printing before releasing v1.0, and have taken out a few patents on what they put in. I haven't used M.Y.O.B. in years, but recall it being a good program. But I'm surprised neither of these has ever asked you to tell them what printing you're using. In OS X, Mac Classic, and Windows, it's common to define the parameters for the print job in the Print window, with some settings defined in Page Setup. Rev gives you access to both: answer printer -- brings up the OS standard Page Setup dialog, which retains settings during the current session open printing with dialog -- initiates a print job with the Print Job dialog presented first. You can also print without the Print Job dialog by ommitting with dialog. If you filter the Transcript Dictionary with print you'll find a lot of properties which govern printing. You can set these up without ever showing the Page Setup dialog, including margins, orientation, scale, and more. The one weakness Rev has is integrating its internal settings with the OS print dialogs. It would be nice to be able to save and restore Page Setup info as we can with QuickTime transitions using answer effect. The difficulty is that while there's only one QuickTime API, the APIs for printing vary broadly and deeply from OS to OS. This isn't to say it wouldn't be worth pursuing (hence the Bugzilla request for it), but at least it helps you understand why that's not in place just yet. Once Classic support is dropped from the engine (no, I've heard of no plans, just wishful thinking for the future), printing can be greatly enhanced as OS X's printing architecture is more like the rest of the world and Classic's is from outerspace. In the meantime, can the built-in properties cover what you need? And if not, is it really a deal-breaker to present the Print Job dialog as most apps do by default? I don't use either QuickBooks or MYOB, but I don't think I have an app on my drive that doesn't bring up the Print Job dialog when I print, and for specialized printing (like checks, labels, etc.) it's usually necessary for me to set the page orientation in Page Setup. Maybe QuickBooks and MYOB are just way ahead of the pack on those (well, we know QuickBooks is). Or if wanted to add a timer constant running from when the application is launched. Timers work well. You might givem 'em a try. What do you want to do? Maybe I don't know how to use it, but for what I need it I don¹t see a way it should work. E.g. My app. Gets turned off probably ... I don't know when, very seldom. They are many meetings appointments, schedules that are entered and the system has to pop em out as the time goes whithout button pressing and at the same time that same app. Is being used heavy for other things memo's, invoicing,inventory and so on. My whole business runes on that one application. I thought to use separate stand alones for certain tasks but wouldn't do the trick. I'm big enough to admit if I'm wrong but it has to be proven to me first. Thanks, Hershel Fisch It's not about right or wrong, just about solving problems. To help you with this one I'm afraid I'll need a little more background: When you write E.g. My app. Gets turned off probably, do you mean it quits unexpectedly or that the user would turn it off. If the latter, you can query the pending messages to determine which messages are in queue, and save those to a file on exit. When the app starts up again it could load them from that file and put them back into the queue. Does that help? Or do I not understand fully? -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
OOPS, that was supposed to go directly to Jerry. Our 'tit for tat' personal thread will hopefully be resolved by Altuit refunding him money for ButtonGadget. Sorry list for the OT post. My bad :-( -Chipp Chipp Walters wrote: You wouldn't be the Jerry Saperstein of Font Bank fame who was accussed back in the 90's of stealing clipart intellectual property and reselling it...would you? If so, how'd that turn out? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Jerry Saperstein wrote: Unremarkably ...yet he goes on to remark: those who have been the quickest to flame me appear to be those with pecuniary interest of one sort or another in Revolution, whether as investors, developers of Revolution based tools or vendors of third-party products and services. Obviously such people are immediately threatened by any criticism of the source of some part of their cash flow. Maybe it's not so deep. Could it be simply that your post was rude? Is that how you communicate with all of your vendors? All anyone's asking for here is a little professionalism. Dropping in from lurkerland with your only post being a sweeping flamefest is not likely to win friends and influence people, in any community. Prove me wrong: drop into any other forum and tell everyone there that they're either misled or liars and that their products don't exist, and let us know how that works out for you. FWIW, I have a number of long-term clients with projects so substantial that I don't expect taking on new clients for a very long time. And yes, I do make tools for Rev, but I give them away. In short, I make no money from helping scripters here. I just like working with Rev, and if my experience can help other people enjoy it more so much the better. And don't bother playing violin about ad hominem attacks: your first post was insulting, your second one more so, and you still haven't bothered to address your own central argument by defining what you mean by business apps. This conversation can become productive and helpful as soon as you choose it to be. I look forward to starting over tabla rasa and seeing what we can do to help you ship your app. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Chipp: What's wrong, fellow? Sending me a silly, juvenile insulting e-mail privately wasn't good enough for you? Now you extend your ad hominem attacks to the entire list? Oh my, Chipp, you must be so very, very angry! For your information, I am indeed the Jerry Saperstein who owned FontBank and was accussed [sic] of all kinds of evil things by people just like you. FontBank had more than six million licensed users, Chipp. And millions more who didn't bother with licenses. The stealing allegations concerning intellectual property came from people who didn't understand copyright law. Their accusations were, just as yours, ad hominem. Some people, Chipp, have no use for truth or honesty in making their arguments and resort to untruths and ad hominem. FontBank typefaces were licensed for redistribution by a number of firms, including Broderbund. Adobe, Monotype and others sued a number of firms for copyright infringement of their typefaces, Chipp, but they never sued FontBank. Why? Because FontBank obeyed the law and didn't infringe. But little things like that probably mean nothing to someone bent on character assasination, right Chipp? In the article you cite, Fred Showker refers to a former contractor who was complaining that he hadn't been paid. In the real world, Chip, people with complaints like that sue. No suit was ever filed by that individual, Chipp, because the truth was that he had been paid --- but thought, after the fact, that he hadn't been paid enough despite what the agreement said. It's really pathetic, Chipp, to deal with someone who reacts so strongly to his beloved product(s) being criticized. Juvenile is perhaps giving you too much credit for your reaction. You stand as a prime example of what will happene to anyone who dares to criticize Revolution while Chipp Walters walks the face of the earth --- and a prime example of how people who so dearly love a product help kill it. Beware critics of Revolution --- if you dare give voice to your concerns, big bad Chipp walters will slime you. What a joke you are. Jerry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chipp Walters Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 10:59 PM To: How to use Revolution; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? You wouldn't be the Jerry Saperstein of Font Bank fame who was accussed back in the 90's of stealing clipart intellectual property and reselling it...would you? If so, how'd that turn out? http://www.60-seconds.com/articles/54.html Just wondering. -Chipp Jerry Saperstein wrote: I've been in the technology industry since the mid-1960s and have seen many products attract a zealous following who vociferously attacked any critic of their love. Many of these failed products still have their adherents years after the product failed its most critical test: acceptance in the marketplace. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Sure, Chipp. I bet. Just a little acccident that happens to attempt to defame me. Yeah, Chipp, sure. Jerry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chipp Walters Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 11:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; How to use Revolution Subject: Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? OOPS, that was supposed to go directly to Jerry. Our 'tit for tat' personal thread will hopefully be resolved by Altuit refunding him money for ButtonGadget. Sorry list for the OT post. My bad :-( -Chipp Chipp Walters wrote: You wouldn't be the Jerry Saperstein of Font Bank fame who was accussed back in the 90's of stealing clipart intellectual property and reselling it...would you? If so, how'd that turn out? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Jerry, Yes, I have been lurking here for months reading the messages on a daily basis. Some of the problems I've encountered in my experimentation with Revolution have indeed been answered here without a need on my part to ask a question. Yes, I purchased Revolution with a specific purpose in mind and, yes, you are correct in deducing that Revolution - despite advertising claims - turned out to be ill-suited for that purpose. Can you share what specifically Revolution advertises but does not deliver on for you? I am genuinely curious. Is it printing and table objects you are looking for? I honestly think you might look more closely at the print dialog problem, as Richard's email alludes to. As for the table object, I'm with you. And I'm a Rev supporter if there ever was one- I BOUGHT my first computer because I wanted Hypercard. But the scripted table objects RunRev has tried to pass off have been a sore spot when we really need a true OS-implemented widget. With that said, similar gaps have been filled before - see altBrowser from Altuit for example. My most serious complaint about Revolution is the documentation. In my opinion, it is deplorable and the Shafer book is a bad joke. As a matter of preference and I think commonsense, I prefer products that are well-documented. I simply don't have the time to waste in dealing with products that require a prodigious amount of time to simply learn whether it's a failure of technique or the product at the base of the problem. A review of this list demonstrates that such time-wasting discussions are part and parcel of the Revolution experience. You might have a point here- as you aren't the first person to complain about the documentation (personally it works fine for me, but there are definitely legitimate complaints especially for new users). With that said, if you don't want to get flamed, try not calling someone else's work a bad joke. Worse yet, post to a list and call it's discussions a time waste. New users regularly swear up and down that this is the best user list they've ever belonged to. You don't have to agree, but it is actually a common occurrence to hear that. Anyone reading this list or using Revolution knows the product has many bugs or, as I'm sure some of the zealots here would claim, undocumented features. Nobody here is calling bugs undocumented features, you're just throwing insults. I've been in the technology industry since the mid-1960s and have seen many products attract a zealous following who vociferously attacked any critic of their love. Many of these failed products still have their adherents years after the product failed its most critical test: acceptance in the marketplace. Yes, I know: the zealots will immediately trot out their arguments that Beta truly was superior to VHS;that the Commodore OS was the best of them; that the Newton still remains unmatched. The counter-argument is that the market says otherwise. The zealots are quick to inform you that the marketplace is wrong, just as anyone who voted for candidate X or owns product Z is dumb. True enough. But that doesn't prove the converse. Just because RunRev has zealots doesn't mean there is something wrong. Let's discuss it's merits if we can, instead of going here. And you might read some of the recent posts by these same zealots who are still trying to steer you into a productive thread. Unremarkably, those who have been the quickest to flame me appear to be those with pecuniary interest of one sort or another in Revolution, whether as investors, developers of Revolution based tools or vendors of third-party products and services. Obviously such people are immediately threatened by any criticism of the source of some part of their cash flow. No, they're insulted when you call them zealots, when you call their products trivial, and when you dismiss RunRev as acceptable for a category of applications from which they make good living and feed their families. You have not been constructively critical and it does not excuse flaming you back. But they weren't threatened, they were insulted. These are successful people who don't need anyone to validate their use or RunRev, why would they be threatened by you? It is noteworthy that there are so many references to applications developed with Revolution that are inaccessible to others. I question the wisdom of a client who would buy an application built with a tool that has a small following, requires special knowledge to use and may not exist within the near future. The bottom line is that apparently virtually no broadly marketed applications have been developed with Revolution. If the tool is as good as its enthusiasts claim, why is that? Because the enthusiasts never claimed it was the tool for every job. It's also worth noting that major, mainstream applications are not usually written in
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Jerry, My apologies for my tackless and inappropriate post to the list. It truly was an accident as I used 'reply' to get to a paragraph from which to comment. Please excuse me, and I will be glad to answer or discuss *any* questions you may have regarding Revolution. Just so you know, our Revolution sales revenue is insignificant comparable to our other work. But our Rev generated products marketed to those outside the Rev community, have been successful. Also, my investor contribution to RR is very small. Once again, I'm sorry for my dim-witted response. best, Chipp Jerry Saperstein wrote: Sure, Chipp. I bet. Just a little acccident that happens to attempt to defame me. Yeah, Chipp, sure. Jerry ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why isn't Rev more popular?
And, what you're doing is somehow better? I doubt it... At least Chipp had the decency to apologize; you apparently lack even that. Judy On Mon, 5 Dec 2005, Jerry Saperstein wrote: Sure, Chipp. I bet. Just a little acccident that happens to attempt to defame me. Yeah, Chipp, sure. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Jerry, FontBank™, aside, what experimentation with Rev did you do? What problems did you encounter? Were you looking for a solution in Forensics like EnCase™? Or is this something for the Great Discussions forum? Quote: It is eminently possible to disagree without being disagreeable. Aggressive civil discourse is a tonic for all thoughtful people - and I hope you'll choose to share your thoughts here. Jerry Saperstein You really should take your own advise. You have been quite disagreeable in your recent posts. Respect is earned for the low price of showing some to others. Wish you well in your endeavors. Tom On Dec 5, 2005, at 11:50 PM, Jerry Saperstein wrote: Since yours is the most reasonable of the flames posted so far, I'll reply to you and consolidate a few comments on the others. Yes, I have been lurking here for months reading the messages on a daily basis. Some of the problems I've encountered in my experimentation with Revolution have indeed been answered here without a need on my part to ask a question. Yes, I purchased Revolution with a specific purpose in mind and, yes, you are correct in deducing that Revolution - despite advertising claims - turned out to be ill-suited for that purpose. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
It seems he likes the word zealot. A little research shows many complaints and insults on all kinds of forums and lists. Web Quote: By all means, though, avoid Apple,. While individual users tend to be zealots, the company occupies its miniscule market share for many valid reasons. Web Quote: If you want to utterly waste a few hours of your life, read this book. It has absolutely nothing of redemptive value. No plot. No memorable characters. Nothing. Web Quote: I don't intend to be a critic, but the reality is that I am. ... Web Quote: In my opinion, this knowledge must be acquired on a first- hand basis, not third-hand by inquiring of a mail list where the accuracy of the responses is not known. On Dec 6, 2005, at 12:45 AM, Judy Perry wrote: And with that, all the true believers may continue with their flaming --- never being mindful of how their insubstantial ad hominem strikes those who may wander to this list looking for justification to purchase Revolution. Zealots never seem to understand how they hurt their own cause. --You complain about flaming and then turn around and label everyone who doesn't agree with you a zealot. Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black... Judy ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Judy: Perhaps you can explain why an apology is required by a person defending themselves agains defamation? Whatever Chipp's intent was with regard to whom he sent his posting, there can be no doubt of his intention to defame. What precisely am I to apologize for? As I've previously pointed out, those without an argument generally resort to ad hominem. Thank you for proving my point. Jerry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Perry Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 11:49 PM To: How to use Revolution Subject: RE: Why isn't Rev more popular? And, what you're doing is somehow better? I doubt it... At least Chipp had the decency to apologize; you apparently lack even that. Judy On Mon, 5 Dec 2005, Jerry Saperstein wrote: Sure, Chipp. I bet. Just a little acccident that happens to attempt to defame me. Yeah, Chipp, sure. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Because, Chipp was wrong to have replied to the list rather than to you personally. And he apologized. Presumably (because you haven't stated otherwise), you KNEW that you were defaming to the list... and did so anyway. I still don't see your morally superior point. Judy On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Jerry Saperstein wrote: Judy: Perhaps you can explain why an apology is required by a person defending themselves agains defamation? Whatever Chipp's intent was with regard to whom he sent his posting, there can be no doubt of his intention to defame. What precisely am I to apologize for? As I've previously pointed out, those without an argument generally resort to ad hominem. Thank you for proving my point. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why isn't Rev more popular?
You're wrong yet again: If Chipp's intent was NOT to post to the list, as he stated, then there was NO intent to defame, despite your claim of mindreading abilities. And, I didn't attack you personally, only your posting to flame Chipp, for ostensibly flaming you, for which he apologized. You simply cannot logically argue that it is bad to flame someone publicly, then okay for you to do likewise. Especially after he apologized. Poor form, no matter how you look at it. Judy On Tue, 6 Dec 2005, Jerry Saperstein wrote: Judy: Perhaps you can explain why an apology is required by a person defending themselves agains defamation? Whatever Chipp's intent was with regard to whom he sent his posting, there can be no doubt of his intention to defame. What precisely am I to apologize for? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 22:50:55 -0600 From: Jerry Saperstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Why isn't Rev more popular? snip I've asked the folks at RunTime to honor their promise of a refund. snip Hmm, another one threatening to leave me alone! Somebody who argues for a living and _likes_ it? If RunTime [sic] won't honor your request, I might - if it would satisfy you and stop your posts. What might I owe you? Bye, Jerry JENSEN ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Jerry Saperstein wrote: Whatever Chipp's intent was with regard to whom he sent his posting, there can be no doubt of his intention to defame. My intent, childish as it seems now, was to tease you about your own product shortcomings *privately*. I am sorry for that. It was never to defame. I was horrified when I saw it posted to the list, and immediately set to retracting. Lesson learned. Sorry. -Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
I have to agree with Sarah. I often want to see if a string doesn't contain another string. -Jerry Daniels Tool makers for the 21st century http://www.daniels-mara.com/products On Dec 3, 2005, at 5:16 PM, Sarah Reichelt wrote: Yes, I know the alternatives, it's just that as we were discussing the limitations of Transcript's Englishness, I thought I would mention one place where it seems inconsistent. Sarah On 12/4/05, Chipp Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You could use: if fred is not in myVar then... ? Sarah Reichelt wrote: ...and that, of course, is the problem with Transcript being English-like... you tend to think that it *should* respond to English commands. In English hide field xxxand if field xxx is hidden The one that always irks me is contains and it's opposite. if myVar contains fred This is simple and obvious, but there isn't an easy way to reverse it, so you have to use: if myVar contains fred is false where I always feel you should be able to use something like: if myVar does not contain fred ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Jerry Daniels wrote: I have to agree with Sarah. I often want to see if a string doesn't contain another string. While there is a mysterious absence of does not contain to complimenty contains, you can use is not in and is in for the same purposes. Meanwhile, even English has its glaring absences, like having no singular third-party gender-independent pronoun, leaving us to invent works like s/he or awkwardly using the plural they instead. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
On Dec 4, 2005, at 12:55 PM, Jerry Daniels wrote: I have to agree with Sarah. I often want to see if a string doesn't contain another string. where I always feel you should be able to use something like: if myVar does not contain fred This would mean adding does to the Transcript dictionary. Given the complex uses to which English puts that word (see DO-support in a linguistic grammar text), I think that might be not so much a can of worms as a whole dockful of oildrums full . . . It might be nice to be able to write what does myVar contain and then look in a system variable 'what' (like 'it', after all), but it sure would be a mess to parse. This discussion got me thinking about how Transcript does handle is, and I realized they get away with what looks deceptively like English-style ambiguity by sneakily including (and distinguishing carefully!) is and is a and is in. Charles ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Richard- Sunday, December 4, 2005, 10:05:35 AM, you wrote: Meanwhile, even English has its glaring absences, like having no singular third-party gender-independent pronoun, leaving us to invent works like s/he or awkwardly using the plural they instead. it? -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Charles- Sunday, December 4, 2005, 10:37:41 AM, you wrote: This discussion got me thinking about how Transcript does handle is, and I realized they get away with what looks deceptively like English-style ambiguity by sneakily including (and distinguishing carefully!) is and is a and is in. ...and don't forget BZ #3157... -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Thank you for pointing that out. I am totally in favor of it; if I had any votes I would vote for it. Charles On Dec 4, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Mark Wieder wrote: Charles- Sunday, December 4, 2005, 10:37:41 AM, you wrote: This discussion got me thinking about how Transcript does handle is, and I realized they get away with what looks deceptively like English-style ambiguity by sneakily including (and distinguishing carefully!) is and is a and is in. ...and don't forget BZ #3157... -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Transcript staying English-like [was Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?]
On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 17:50:53 -0800, Scott Rossi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] but still, the point is that verbose syntax helps in my situation. So I'll continue to support its use. Earlier, Scott had written I don't know, Charles. Being a design-as-a-first-language, programming-as-a-second-language person, it's *because* of TransScript's English like syntax that I can get anywhere in the environment. Just want to say that I come from the opposite end to Scott, since I'm a programmer from further back than you can imagine (probably) and I started off practically programming in binary (really it was octal, but there you go). In those days the programmer had to translate his ideas into a very awkward, obscure and bug-inducing language, and it was a pain. Mistakes were rife, productivity was low, and it just wasn't enough fun. As a result, I have been in favour of every advance towards clarity and 'natural language-like' programming that has occurred since, although I am well aware that English-like is not and never will be, English. Anyway X-talk gets my vote every time. OTOH I entirely agree with those sounding a note of caution about extending X-talk: certainly it should happen, but slowly and with a great deal of consideration of the pros and cons. I believe there are other lists for this kind of discussion. Graham Graham Samuel / The Living Fossil Co. / UK and France ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
One of the things I like about a web board interface is being able to mark a thread ans as subcribed and then receiving email notices whenever there is a post. Ideally though I would probably use a news reader such as gravity and let it highlight topics I am participating in. To me the mailing list method of keeping up to date is the one I least prefer. Most of the time I want to search first before I post and unless you subscribed from day one to a list and keep your mail from that list forever you need to go to a web interface first anyways. Steve Judy Perry wrote: I think we've had previous discussion on the topic of mail list vs. web board and, IIRC, the majority of respondents preferred using a mail list. I know I do, and the reason is that I'm simply too scatterbrained, over-multi-tasked, insufficiently disciplined, and forgetful for a web board to be useful for me. I want something that comes to me whether I want it to or not and whether I think I'll need it today or not. Judy ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
There is nothing wrong with these topics that diverge from the focus of the list. The problem is that since it is being delivers in the form of a list its not as easy from people to ignore topics they are not interested in. Steve Jim Ault wrote: On 12/2/05 6:18 PM, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since the use-rev list isn't used much for discussing how to use Rev anymore, should we make an opinions-about-how-other-people-should-run-their-company list so we have a place to talk about using Rev? Yep. Jim Ault Las Vegas ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
Richard, WOW. That's very nice. Is this link to the web interface listed on the Rev site? I was unaware of it. BTW, I emailed you about doing an article on Constellation. Maybe it got misdirected or lost. Best, Jerry http://www.daniels-mara.com/products/constellation.htm Scripts and properties in a tabbed editor! On Dec 2, 2005, at 8:18 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Jerry Daniels wrote: There's no conflict that i can see. Why vote? Why not have both? And we do, now linked to the top of the revJournal Links page: http://www.revjournal.com/links/ Prior to the formation of the web interfaces to this list we had nearly a hundred posts on the subject. Then not one but TWO web interfaces were created, and convenient links to them published here and on revJournal. So now we have at least FIVE ways to access this list: - Email subscription - List Archives: http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-revolution/ - Nabble: http://www.nabble.com/Revolution---User-f2297.html - gMane: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.ide.revolution.user - Search engines yet still this remains The Thread That Wouldn't Die. Since the use-rev list isn't used much for discussing how to use Rev anymore, should we make an opinions-about-how-other-people- should-run-their-company list so we have a place to talk about using Rev? -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Preston Shea [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Saying if the visible of myObject is true, may sound a bit funny at first but it is very English like. Putting the before visible turns an adjective into a noun. Perfectly logical in a language that has no problems with the running of the Kentucky Derby and a fine way to refer to a property. But there is a way of setting the property (hide and show) without actually referring to the property visible. So why can't we find out the state of the property without knowing explicitly about it, i.e., what the property's name is? When my students write hide field xxx they don't know that what they're really doing is set the visible of field xxx to false and I'd just as soon keep that level of abstraction, at least for my 8th graders. Just griping - marty -- Marty Billingsley ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) The University of Chicago Laboratory Schools ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Marty- Friday, December 2, 2005, 9:46:20 PM, you wrote: With regard to my previous post, students think that if they can say hide field xxx then they ought to be able to say if field xxx is hidden ... or if field xxx is invisible ... or if field xxx is not visible... but having to create a construct like if the visible of field xxx is false ... really baffles them. In this way I think Transcript could indeed be more English-like. ...and that, of course, is the problem with Transcript being English-like... you tend to think that it *should* respond to English commands. In English hide field xxxand if field xxx is hidden are two completely separate language constructions. The first is an imperative statment commanding the computer to do something to the specified field. The second is a query of a property of a field. Is the field hidden? Is it not visible? In English this is not querying the state of existence of the field... we're not asking is field xxx a pig, we're interested in a particular property of the field, in this case whether or not the field is visible to us. This is a different use of the word is. What we're really asking in English is is the state of the visibility of this field true or false?. This is very similar to the Transcript put the visible of field xxx. Unfortunately, English doesn't really discriminate between the two meanings of the verb to be in the way that other languages do. Saying I am happy or I am befuddled is probably not a statement of self-identity as much as a description of a property of oneself. In much the same way hide field xxx is a shorthand way of saying set the visible of field xxx to true. Maybe if you didn't teach your students about the hide command and stuck to the low-level functions they wouldn't get so confused. You'd lose some of the beauty and flexibility of the language, but it would be less easy to think of it as being English. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
...and that, of course, is the problem with Transcript being English-like... you tend to think that it *should* respond to English commands. In English hide field xxxand if field xxx is hidden The one that always irks me is contains and it's opposite. if myVar contains fred This is simple and obvious, but there isn't an easy way to reverse it, so you have to use: if myVar contains fred is false where I always feel you should be able to use something like: if myVar does not contain fred We have is a number and is not a number and all the variants on the is and is not functions, so why not contains and does not contain. Cheers, Sarah ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Hi Sarah, As all of you know that I'm not an English speaker, it's probably the reason why if not myVar contains fred suits me ;-) Le 3 déc. 05 à 23:49, Sarah Reichelt a écrit : The one that always irks me is contains and it's opposite. if myVar contains fred This is simple and obvious, but there isn't an easy way to reverse it, so you have to use: if myVar contains fred is false where I always feel you should be able to use something like: if myVar does not contain fred Best Regards from Paris, Eric Chatonet. So Smart Software For institutions, companies and associations Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc. Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch Free plugins and tutorials on my website Web sitehttp://www.sosmartsoftware.com/ Email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Phone33 (0)1 43 31 77 62 Mobile33 (0)6 20 74 50 86 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
You could use: if fred is not in myVar then... ? Sarah Reichelt wrote: ...and that, of course, is the problem with Transcript being English-like... you tend to think that it *should* respond to English commands. In English hide field xxxand if field xxx is hidden The one that always irks me is contains and it's opposite. if myVar contains fred This is simple and obvious, but there isn't an easy way to reverse it, so you have to use: if myVar contains fred is false where I always feel you should be able to use something like: if myVar does not contain fred ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Yes, I know the alternatives, it's just that as we were discussing the limitations of Transcript's Englishness, I thought I would mention one place where it seems inconsistent. Sarah On 12/4/05, Chipp Walters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You could use: if fred is not in myVar then... ? Sarah Reichelt wrote: ...and that, of course, is the problem with Transcript being English-like... you tend to think that it *should* respond to English commands. In English hide field xxxand if field xxx is hidden The one that always irks me is contains and it's opposite. if myVar contains fred This is simple and obvious, but there isn't an easy way to reverse it, so you have to use: if myVar contains fred is false where I always feel you should be able to use something like: if myVar does not contain fred ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Dan I dont think the issue is about IDEs that work better - sure there are and sure none are as easy as rev. The problems that i also see as retro are the pattern handling (mac squared format only vs any normal skin in win32 as widely used in the web interfaces), menus not being always so standard - like separators in option menus, lack of color cursor support, easy ID conflicts (and issuing crashes), same with stacks using the same name, etc... While rev is crossplatform, no doubt, the issues encounted porting a stack from windows to Mac or viceversa make the IDE show lots of weaknesses in the IDE. Other issues like htmltext handling, no threading, text style (no per-paragraph alignment) or image positioning based on text baseline or even differently sized paragraph lineheight make for a lot of limitations compared to other IDEs as well. Last but not least, when you look at a modern IDE (visual C or CodeWarrior), the code editors have a bit more punch and virtually no bugs as we've encountered in the rev script editor (and VW or MW) - though these are starting to disappear, they still remain a productivity issue other IDEs do not impose on the developper... The best example here was the debugging breakpoints causing crashes or the lack of array editing in the variable watcher. cheers Xavier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 02/12/2005 08:47:57: Bill.. Interesting list with some things that hadn't been discussed before. Can you elaborate on point 5? Some examles of modern IDEs that you think work better than Rev? On 12/1/05, Bill Marriott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This comes from the perspective of an occassional (but loyal) RunRev user who's been in the software industry nearly 25 years... Fourteen Reasons Why I Think Rev Is Not More Popular: 5) Retro IDE. There have been improvements over time, but it's still kinda long in the tooth. Just playing with a modern IDE for a while gives me all kinds of shivers at what could be possible if Rev picked up the pace. So many things are missing from it. -- ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html - To make communications with Clearstream easier, Clearstream has recently changed the email address format to conform with industry standards. The new format is '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'. Visit us at http://www.clearstream.com IMPORTANT MESSAGE Internet communications are not secure and therefore Clearstream International does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Any views expressed in this e-mail are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Clearstream International or of any of its affiliates or subsidiaries. END OF DISCLAIMER ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
On 12/1/05 9:47 PM, Bill Marriott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 3) Lack of integration with (or even much awareness about) the Web. It's astonishing that altBrowser or a component like it is not integrated into the platform. It's also really surprising that we don't have a more robust way to get RunRev running as a CGI (I know there's a tutorial out there, I gave it my best effort, I failed, and I gave up. I imagine it's easy enough if you're running a web server from a Mac or your own machine, but what about for those of us using one of the ubiquitous Linux/CPanel-based hosting providers?) It works just fine, Bill... I've been running MC/Rev based CGIs from Linux ISPs for the last 5 years. If you're interested in following up with this privately, I can work with you to get your CGI running. Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
I said nothing about the *content* of the mailing list, or the participants! Obviously it's a great resource. This is the official mailing list -- you can't go anywhere else for that -- and I simply think it's cumbersome. My opinion is it should migrate toward a more attractive and accessible presentation. Just one little thing that could make Rev more popular. If you think the forum is as good as it is because it's in this format -- if you think this is somehow the ideal -- that's one thing. But I think it is this way in spite of the format. For example, - I made my post completely oblivious that Kevin Miller had weighed in, because I received the digest with his post *after* I made mine. This is not real-time. - If you look at the list archive, you see that this thread (and most others) are broken up into dozens of pieces so that it's quite hard to follow who is responding to what. - On days when there is high traffic, you get a *lot* of email. This has resulted in me filtering the Use-Revolution list into a folder, which results in reading it less often. Also, I feel the well if you don't like it go somewhere else type of feedback is less than mature or constructive, and quite defensive-sounding. Why stop with point #12? If I want 3D, why don't I use Director? If I want database tools, why not use FileMaker? If I want a slicker IDE, why not use Visual Studio? etc.? (It's a wonder they let ungrateful cads like me even *use* Revolution!) I thought the question was a valid one and I gave my honest opinion. Bill | 12) The discussion list. I think we're well beyond the days when an email | list is the ideal way to go. Why can't we have a nice, phpBB- or | vBulletin-based board where threads are kept nicely organized, etc.? Again, | the community support like other aspects is like living ten years in the | past. (These boards still allow for receiving digests in email, and/or | subscribing to threads.) | |Why don't you just sign onto one of the existing boards then? |Personally I find this list much more useful and informative than any |of the boards I've seen, but if that's your preference then go for it. | |-- |-Mark Wieder | [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
On 02.12.2005, at 04:47, Bill Marriott wrote: This list of course doesn't address all the reasons why I really like Revolution and why I keep my license current. I do think that in general it's better to have more users of a programming language, otherwise it tends to die out like an obscure religious sect. But was a great conclusion of some big points, Bill... regards Wolfgang M. Bereuter T-mapping© is PhotoLearning Mindmaps! ... http://www.internettrainer.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria Tel: ++43/1/ 479 6410 Fax: ++43/1/ 955 14 64-198 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? Konfabulator UI
On 02.12.2005, at 07:03, Thomas McGrath III wrote: Kee, This is true. But it might be an attractive add on just the same for some people. I personally don't like the UI in a can approach but I know others do. That´s the point. Runrev imho should´nt have done Dreamcard. It should have devloped instead different GUI for different users/ developers. From the beginner a mTropolis-like UI up to the professional developer a full featured SQl,cgi etc... As a modular concept, that you can buy that features you like. The Minimum modul could be the engine for, let me say, $49.- I dont know the Linux market but what they people tell me here: Thats an amount they would spend for crossplatform developer tool. And/or bundle that as, I think Bill said that, with Linspire, Redhead, Novel and educational licenses. And rev is are popular very fast, without spending a lot of money making a headquarter in the USA. (Better offer the the developers a way to be a kind of local consultant/distributor) regards Wolfgang M. Bereuter T-mapping© is PhotoLearning Mindmaps! ... http://www.internettrainer.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria Tel: ++43/1/ 479 6410 Fax: ++43/1/ 955 14 64-198 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
Bill and All, My idea about we would realy need to get the best enlacement Web 2.0 can provide us... 1.- i'm for my own very happy with the mailing lists ; 2.- i don't think that more features is always better (forum, wiki) ; 3.- i would be realy interested in beeing, in the same time, able to continue to post my mails to the lists and, second part, able to read out them from a revisited blog system witch could provide us all the messages packaged as categorized bulletins. This presentation could be very helpfull in about the ease of read and retrieve the post and threads, in about a valuable mailman system replacement front-end. In about free installable rock-solid multi-admin blog solutions, wordpress was a serious candidate until the first class dotclear system became available. It support all the features and enlacements we can expect from such a tool, even the integration of any custom (static or dynamic applications) pages in the DotClear CSS2 templates. Just a tought, Best Regards, Le 2 déc. 05 à 12:41, Bill Marriott a écrit : I said nothing about the *content* of the mailing list, or the participants! Obviously it's a great resource. This is the official mailing list -- you can't go anywhere else for that -- and I simply think it's cumbersome. My opinion is it should migrate toward a more attractive and accessible presentation. Just one little thing that could make Rev more popular. If you think the forum is as good as it is because it's in this format -- if you think this is somehow the ideal -- that's one thing. But I think it is this way in spite of the format. For example, - I made my post completely oblivious that Kevin Miller had weighed in, because I received the digest with his post *after* I made mine. This is not real-time. - If you look at the list archive, you see that this thread (and most others) are broken up into dozens of pieces so that it's quite hard to follow who is responding to what. - On days when there is high traffic, you get a *lot* of email. This has resulted in me filtering the Use-Revolution list into a folder, which results in reading it less often. -- Bien cordialement, Pierre Sahores 100, rue de Paris F - 77140 Nemours [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] GSM: +33 6 03 95 77 70 Pro: +33 1 64 45 05 33 Fax: +33 1 64 45 05 33 http://www.sahores-conseil.com/ WEB/VoD/ACID-DB services over IP Mutualiser les deltas de productivité ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
- I made my post completely oblivious that Kevin Miller had weighed in, because I received the digest with his post *after* I made mine. This is not real-time. The way email works, I get many posts in different order than they were sent. This does not happen with forums to the same degree but still multiple people can be composing answers at the same time not being aware that somebody else is answering, so there is some crosstalk as well. I don't see it as a big deal. Digests for a high-volume list like this are sort of pointless except for people who really want to just scan them. I think the filtering is a better way to do it. - If you look at the list archive, you see that this thread (and most others) are broken up into dozens of pieces so that it's quite hard to follow who is responding to what. Threading is indeed an issue for emails. However, that feature can also be a minus for online forums in a different way: the forum discussions are usually divided into content areas, topics, sometimes with multiple levels of hierarchy, so people need to subscribe to each individually (to get emails) or need to move around the different forums a lot. There is also often more repeatition of different things in different areas. Some active areas fill up with new threads so quickly that one has to page to see older but still new threads. Then, people also often hijack the thread to go into a different direction (or start a new thread to continue), so the title of main entry (seen normally on forum listings) is not always representative. In the end, an average user does not necessarily see more of content than in eail subscription. I even dare say less overall. - On days when there is high traffic, you get a *lot* of email. This has resulted in me filtering the Use-Revolution list into a folder, which results in reading it less often. I do not see that visiting you folder to process the accumulated emails is that different from visiting forums and browsing around. I thought the question was a valid one and I gave my honest opinion. The bottom line: I see this issue more of personal preference and/or individual workflow issue than one format having advantage over the other. Each has pros and cons. That said, if Rev could have a system like Tidbits-Talk (http://www.tidbits.com/about/tidbits-talk.html), they could probably make a lot more people happy. That system is based on WebCrossing (with custom extensions) and allows users to participare in either forum and/or email modes. So each users picks what suits them best. Unfortunately, WebCrossing ain't free or cheap and it is not problem-free either. Robert ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
[OT] Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
Hi Bill, On Dec 2, 2005, at 6:41 AM, Bill Marriott wrote: I said nothing about the *content* of the mailing list, or the participants! For what it's worth, I, for one, didn't think you had. Obviously it's a great resource. This is the official mailing list -- you can't go anywhere else for that -- and I simply think it's cumbersome. My opinion is it should migrate toward a more attractive and accessible presentation. Just one little thing that could make Rev more popular. If you think the forum is as good as it is because it's in this format -- if you think this is somehow the ideal -- that's one thing. This is *exactly* what I think. But I think it is this way in spite of the format. For example, - I made my post completely oblivious that Kevin Miller had weighed in, because I received the digest with his post *after* I made mine. This is not real-time. There's your first problem, it is a mailing list so don't use digests. Filters, threading, keeping fragments of threads, and discontinuities in the flow of conversation results directly from digests. The way to go is individual email messages... - If you look at the list archive, you see that this thread (and most others) are broken up into dozens of pieces so that it's quite hard to follow who is responding to what. ...read in a configurable email reader that, especially handles threaded mail conversations... - On days when there is high traffic, you get a *lot* of email. This has resulted in me filtering the Use-Revolution list into a folder, which results in reading it less often. ...and folders. Folders are a good thing. The thing is that with a mailing list I can read them using a tool that *I* control and can make look and behave as *I* like. You don't have to worry about what I like, and I don't have to worry about what you like. As you can see this is a problem worth avoiding :-) The only better solution to this is NNTP. Unfortunately, USENET is pretty much dead because of spam and finding a good news reader these days is hard (actually, some ISPs are no longer supporting NNTP). BTW, if you are on windows, check out Agent http://www.forteinc.com/ agent/index.php if you want to see what I think is a fabulous mail/ news reader (they combine the two)... I wish this was available on the Mac. The problem with web based forums is a) their functionality sucks (yes, this is my opinion, and that's the point); and, b) you have to go to them. Going to something is fundamentally the wrong way about. This is why email, news (despite the spam), and weblogs are either so entrenched or such active areas of development. The trouble, currently, with weblogs, is that they are still hard to find, conversations are difficult (because of spam most weblogs have disabled the functionality necessary to support conversations), and there is no good way to keep track of interesting posts (and forget about searching them). These things will change over time. When I have a weblog reader as flexible as my email reader then we'll have something interesting. Also, I feel the well if you don't like it go somewhere else type of feedback is less than mature or constructive, and quite defensive-sounding. Why stop with point #12? If I want 3D, why don't I use Director? If I want database tools, why not use FileMaker? If I want a slicker IDE, why not use Visual Studio? etc.? (It's a wonder they let ungrateful cads like me even *use* Revolution!) I didn't read Mark's comment the way you did. I thought the question was a valid one and I gave my honest opinion. I agree that your point is a valid one, and so is your opinion. But you are wrong :-) Sort of... The functionality supported by NNTP/USENET/news (email is SMTP, the web is HTTP -- for you folks who don't follow this stuff, all these are *very* closely related internet protocols) is what forums are trying to re-create. If you like forums you'll love a good news reader. The trouble with forums is that it gets it backwards and, on top of that, have all the same problems as weblogs. Now I say USENET is dead because of spam. This isn't precisely true of course. In fact, there are a couple of examples of on-line community that depend on USENET: lisp and ruby. The hottest old thing in programming and the hottest new thing in programming. Ruby has a gateway to a mailing list, and lisp, well, they've got 50 years of history and won't budge on this issue :-) Anyway, I'm way off topic. Cheers, Bob Bill | 12) The discussion list. I think we're well beyond the days when an email | list is the ideal way to go. Why can't we have a nice, phpBB- or | vBulletin-based board where threads are kept nicely organized, etc.? Again, | the community support like other aspects is like living ten years in the | past. (These boards still allow for receiving digests in email, and/or |
Re: [OT] Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
On Dec 2, 2005, at 9:08 AM, Bob Hutchison wrote: There's your first problem, it is a mailing list so don't use digests. Filters, threading, keeping fragments of threads, and discontinuities in the flow of conversation results directly from digests. The way to go is individual email messages... Wow, that was unintelligible... Please pretend I wrote Problems with Filters ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
Bob- Friday, December 2, 2005, 6:08:05 AM, you wrote: Also, I feel the well if you don't like it go somewhere else type of feedback is less than mature or constructive, and quite defensive-sounding. Why stop with point #12? If I want 3D, why I didn't read Mark's comment the way you did. Going back over my posting, I think I do, and that's not the way I intended it (late at night after a couple of glasses of wine, etc), so... There have been several web fora set up already - if that's your preferred way of handling these conversations, then do try them out. I do find these things useful in other contexts, I just haven't found any of the ones set up for rev development to be all that useful. But then that's my opinion. I certainly didn't mean go somewhere else instead, but go somewhere else also. You can also view this list archives in web format in one of several places: lists.runrev.com, Gmane, and the Mail Archive. My preferred way of using the lists as threaded archives is to use gmane and my news reader, Xnews. In any of these approaches you could have the content that we're all here for and not have to deal with email. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
[OT] Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
Bob Hutchison wrote: The only better solution to this is NNTP. Unfortunately, USENET is pretty much dead because of spam and finding a good news reader these days is hard (actually, some ISPs are no longer supporting NNTP). BTW, if you are on windows, check out Agent http://www.forteinc.com/agent/index.php if you want to see what I think is a fabulous mail/news reader (they combine the two)... I wish this was available on the Mac. The problem with web based forums is a) their functionality sucks (yes, this is my opinion, and that's the point); and, b) you have to go to them. Going to something is fundamentally the wrong way about. This is why email, news (despite the spam), and weblogs are either so entrenched or such active areas of development. I agree with you, Bob. I REALLY wish that this list was available as a Usenet group. As a matter of fact, it would probably be pretty easy to have this list mirrored to gmane which hosts many other such programming mailing lists. Then people who prefer could use a good NNTP reader (I use Thoth on the Mac most of the time for this) and those who don't want the change could just keep using email. That would be the best of both worlds for everyone. -Rodney -- --- Rodney Somerstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
You can also view this list archives in web format in one of several places: lists.runrev.com, Gmane, and the Mail Archive. My preferred way of using the lists as threaded archives is to use gmane and my news reader, Xnews. In any of these approaches you could have the content that we're all here for and not have to deal with email. Thanks for mentioning this Mark. I just posted a message suggesting that this list be mirrored on Gmane. I didn't bother to actually check to see if it was already there. I may switch to using that to cut down on my email volume. -Rodney -- --- Rodney Somerstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Bill- ...and by the way, that's an excellent list of Things To Think About. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Bill- Thursday, December 1, 2005, 7:47:19 PM, you wrote: 14) Not advancing the HyperTalk (Transcript) language further. New features tend to come in the form of functions instead of English-language stuff that makes this language a joy to use. The code is looking more and more like JavaScript (ugh). I'm intrigued by this. Can you explain this one for me? Are you referring to adding new keywords to the language, adding new syntax, or what? What would you look for that isn't currently available? -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
Mark, Yeah... really sorry for the misunderstanding :) I'm using the gmane NNTP view of the list now and it's great. I wish that RunRev published this means of accessing the list because it makes me very happy. Bill Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Bob- Friday, December 2, 2005, 6:08:05 AM, you wrote: Also, I feel the well if you don't like it go somewhere else type of feedback is less than mature or constructive, and quite defensive-sounding. Why stop with point #12? If I want 3D, why I didn't read Mark's comment the way you did. Going back over my posting, I think I do, and that's not the way I intended it (late at night after a couple of glasses of wine, etc), so... There have been several web fora set up already - if that's your preferred way of handling these conversations, then do try them out. I do find these things useful in other contexts, I just haven't found any of the ones set up for rev development to be all that useful. But then that's my opinion. I certainly didn't mean go somewhere else instead, but go somewhere else also. You can also view this list archives in web format in one of several places: lists.runrev.com, Gmane, and the Mail Archive. My preferred way of using the lists as threaded archives is to use gmane and my news reader, Xnews. In any of these approaches you could have the content that we're all here for and not have to deal with email. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: [OT] Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
Web based forums do not require than you go to them - not at all. It can be set up either way - you can set it up so that you receive posted messages by e-mail, and when you respond to the message (by email) it gets posted and distributed. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rodney Somerstein Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 11:53 AM To: How to use Revolution Subject: [OT] Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List] Bob Hutchison wrote: The only better solution to this is NNTP. Unfortunately, USENET is pretty much dead because of spam and finding a good news reader these days is hard (actually, some ISPs are no longer supporting NNTP). BTW, if you are on windows, check out Agent http://www.forteinc.com/agent/index.php if you want to see what I think is a fabulous mail/news reader (they combine the two)... I wish this was available on the Mac. The problem with web based forums is a) their functionality sucks (yes, this is my opinion, and that's the point); and, b) you have to go to them. Going to something is fundamentally the wrong way about. This is why email, news (despite the spam), and weblogs are either so entrenched or such active areas of development. I agree with you, Bob. I REALLY wish that this list was available as a Usenet group. As a matter of fact, it would probably be pretty easy to have this list mirrored to gmane which hosts many other such programming mailing lists. Then people who prefer could use a good NNTP reader (I use Thoth on the Mac most of the time for this) and those who don't want the change could just keep using email. That would be the best of both worlds for everyone. -Rodney -- --- Rodney Somerstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
Rodney- Friday, December 2, 2005, 8:53:15 AM, you wrote: I agree with you, Bob. I REALLY wish that this list was available as Have you tried looking on gmane? -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
Bill- Friday, December 2, 2005, 8:57:41 AM, you wrote: Yeah... really sorry for the misunderstanding :) ...one of the joys of email text... glad we're back on course now. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT] Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
Rodney- Friday, December 2, 2005, 8:56:45 AM, you wrote: Thanks for mentioning this Mark. I just posted a message suggesting that this list be mirrored on Gmane. I didn't bother to actually check to see if it was already there. I may switch to using that to cut down on my email volume. ...and I just replied to your message without reading this one first. Maybe www.revjournal.com should have a section on its link page for these alternate ways of viewing the discussions? Richard? -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
[OT] Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
Well, I subscribed to the gmane mirror. I was initially elated, but it's working only sort-of okay in that I can't respond very fluidly. I got the authenticate message and replied, but only one post has appeared so far. Who knows, maybe all my stuff will start showing up in a big batch soon. Bill ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Bill Marriott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:... Well for reasons I may not be aware of, all the new commands seem to be in the format, revDoSomething followed by parameters. Example: revAddXMLNode treeID, parentPath, nodeName, nodeContents the official example: revAddXMLNode 9,/,Balls, Why couldn't you say something like add node Balls to the root path of XML tree id 9 I'm not saying that is the exact perfect syntax, nor is it compact, but it would be super readable/self-documenting and easy to remember. This is what I mean about advancing TransScript. Bill [Oh yeah, reason #15: Inability to copy and paste from the documentation stack!] Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill- Thursday, December 1, 2005, 7:47:19 PM, you wrote: 14) Not advancing the HyperTalk (Transcript) language further. New features tend to come in the form of functions instead of English-language stuff that makes this language a joy to use. The code is looking more and more like JavaScript (ugh). I'm intrigued by this. Can you explain this one for me? Are you referring to adding new keywords to the language, adding new syntax, or what? What would you look for that isn't currently available? -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Well for reasons I may not be aware of, all the new commands seem to be in the format, revDoSomething followed by parameters. Example: revAddXMLNode treeID, parentPath, nodeName, nodeContents the official example: revAddXMLNode 9,/,Balls, Why couldn't you say something like add node Balls to the root path of XML tree id 9 I'm not saying that is the exact perfect syntax, nor is it compact, but it would be super readable/self-documenting and easy to remember. This is what I mean about advancing TransScript. Bill [Oh yeah, reason #15: Inability to copy and paste from the documentation stack!] Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill- Thursday, December 1, 2005, 7:47:19 PM, you wrote: 14) Not advancing the HyperTalk (Transcript) language further. New features tend to come in the form of functions instead of English-language stuff that makes this language a joy to use. The code is looking more and more like JavaScript (ugh). I'm intrigued by this. Can you explain this one for me? Are you referring to adding new keywords to the language, adding new syntax, or what? What would you look for that isn't currently available? -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Bill- Friday, December 2, 2005, 10:06:25 AM, you wrote: Well for reasons I may not be aware of, all the new commands seem to be in the format, revDoSomething followed by parameters. Example: revAddXMLNode treeID, parentPath, nodeName, nodeContents the official example: revAddXMLNode 9,/,Balls, Why couldn't you say something like add node Balls to the root path of XML tree id 9 I'm not saying that is the exact perfect syntax, nor is it compact, but it would be super readable/self-documenting and easy to remember. That's what I love about the language, and this is what I mean about advancing TransScript. Thanks. That does help sort things out. And I think this is a useful discussion, and one that comes up every so often. The revdb_xxx functions are equally ugly. My impression is that the rev prefix is a way to handle namespaces in an xtalk way; i.e., without instituting a dot mechanism: rev.xml.addNode paramList, which does indeed veer way too much into javaLand. Note that the add keyword already has a specific meaning as an arithmetic operator, so it wouldn't be the best choice here. And not that the (admittedly imperfect) syntax you suggested requires not just a change to the add keyword parsing, but also the addition of a node keyword, the ability to parse the words root path into a meaningful property, and the need to parse XML tree into an object whose root path can be set. I'm wary of adding keywords to the language unless there isn't any workaround with functions, in spite of the funny-looking syntax. Everything added to the core functionality is more baggage the engine has to drag around, adding bloat to standalones and slowing down script parsing. The xml routines are handled in a separate library which can be added explicitly to standalones when needed but doesn't take up unneeded extra space when it isn't. [Oh yeah, reason #15: Inability to copy and paste from the documentation stack! :)] Ouch! #16 Lack of built-in hooks to standard version control packages #17 Lack of a solid debugger #18 None of the available QA automation tools work with runrev #19 Lack of a generic way to utilize external libraries (ActiveX, etc) #20 Lack of an import mechanism limits multi-programmer projects -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why isn't Rev more popular?
[Oh yeah, reason #15: Inability to copy and paste from the documentation stack! :)] Ouch! No, that's the hot key problem. Control-Insert works great - on macs I don't know though Insert to paste... (insert is the key above delete right of the CR key...)... ouch coming from chicogo myself, I can't say how the blues im listening to fits! ;) I need a hotkey, it's the blues honey... To make it work all day, is like having a clipboard fey... hey neural IO is coming soon ;) sweet! cheers X http://monsieurx.com/taoo ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Marty, That's so cool! Is it a GE entry? Judy On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Marty Billingsley wrote: There's a two-quarter sequence taught using RR at the University of Chicago. It's called Multimedia Programming as an Interdisciplinary Art. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
I was under the impression that rev* were functions that RunRev added to revolution before they acquired (the rights to) the engine. Since they couldn't modify the engine at that point, these functions were added as externals with the rev* prefix. At 01:16 PM 12/2/2005, you wrote: Thanks. That does help sort things out. And I think this is a useful discussion, and one that comes up every so often. The revdb_xxx functions are equally ugly. My impression is that the rev prefix is a way to handle namespaces in an xtalk way; i.e., without instituting a dot mechanism: rev.xml.addNode paramList, which does indeed veer way too much into javaLand. Peter T. Evensen http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com 24-hour recorded info hotline: 1-800-624-7671 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Hi Peter, I don't think that's right: The SQL library that appeared first is implemented as a front script. As for the XML library that came later, it's not a front script... But i agree the fundamentals: these *libraries* are not XTalk compliant. Le 2 déc. 05 à 20:35, Peter T. Evensen a écrit : I was under the impression that rev* were functions that RunRev added to revolution before they acquired (the rights to) the engine. Since they couldn't modify the engine at that point, these functions were added as externals with the rev* prefix. Best Regards from Paris, Eric Chatonet. So Smart Software For institutions, companies and associations Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc. Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch Free plugins and tutorials on my website Web sitehttp://www.sosmartsoftware.com/ Email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Phone33 (0)1 43 31 77 62 Mobile33 (0)6 20 74 50 86 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
On 12/2/05 12:06 PM, Bill Marriott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well for reasons I may not be aware of, all the new commands seem to be in the format, revDoSomething followed by parameters. Example: revAddXMLNode treeID, parentPath, nodeName, nodeContents the official example: revAddXMLNode 9,/,Balls, Why couldn't you say something like add node Balls to the root path of XML tree id 9 I'm not saying that is the exact perfect syntax, nor is it compact, but it would be super readable/self-documenting and easy to remember. That's what I love about the language, and this is what I mean about advancing TransScript. The reason that the XML and SQL commands have different syntax is because they are implemented as externals and are not part of the main interpreter's language set. When they merge these into the main code base, I'm sure they'll change the syntax accordingly. Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Hopefully ! Le 2 déc. 05 à 21:06, Ken Ray a écrit : The reason that the XML and SQL commands have different syntax is because they are implemented as externals and are not part of the main interpreter's language set. When they merge these into the main code base, I'm sure they'll change the syntax accordingly. Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Bien cordialement, Pierre Sahores 100, rue de Paris F - 77140 Nemours [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] GSM: +33 6 03 95 77 70 Pro: +33 1 64 45 05 33 Fax: +33 1 64 45 05 33 http://www.sahores-conseil.com/ WEB/VoD/ACID-DB services over IP Mutualiser les deltas de productivité ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular? [Mailing List]
I think we've had previous discussion on the topic of mail list vs. web board and, IIRC, the majority of respondents preferred using a mail list. I know I do, and the reason is that I'm simply too scatterbrained, over-multi-tasked, insufficiently disciplined, and forgetful for a web board to be useful for me. I want something that comes to me whether I want it to or not and whether I think I'll need it today or not. Judy On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, Bill Marriott wrote: If you think the forum is as good as it is because it's in this format -- if you think this is somehow the ideal -- that's one thing. But I think it is this way in spite of the format. For example, snip Also, I feel the well if you don't like it go somewhere else type of feedback is less than mature or constructive, and quite defensive-sounding. Why stop with point #12? If I want 3D, why don't I use Director? If I want database tools, why not use FileMaker? If I want a slicker IDE, why not use Visual Studio? etc.? (It's a wonder they let ungrateful cads like me even *use* Revolution!) ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why isn't Rev more popular?
Yup, that's the perception alrighty, even among supposedly educated PhD types. I remember a few years ago when our campus decided to 'get with' the computer revolution thingy... Our department almost wasn't 'allowed' to keep our unix server, used in teaching and learning, because of the following deeply flawed flow of logic: (1) We must standardize on a single platform because that will be cheaper than supporting two platforms (unix was never even a consideration, incidentally) -- arguably true, so we'll go on to the next point: (2) There are more applications for Windows than any other platform -- again, arguably true if you're thinking only in terms of Windows vs. Mac therefore, (3) Everyone will be standardized on Windows and the only apps we'll allow are the standard MS apps because those are the apps that everybody uses. -- Huh?? how did we get from (2) to (3) again??? :-( Judy On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, Mathewson wrote: I think that over the last 12 years there has been a change in people's perception of computers and what can be done by them. Certainly, in Bulgaria there is the perception that: 1. The ability to use Microsoft Word and connect to the internet is all that anybody needs to know except for: 2. Computer experts - who need to know the full nine-yards. In England my mother (who is in her middle 70s) attended a course entitled Computers for the terrified - it said, in its prospectus, that it would make all attendees 'fully computer literate' - did it hell? - it taught Mother how to type a letter in MSWord, print it out, open Internet Explorer, browse the internet and sign up for a Yahoo e-mail account. Unfortunately, the gum-chewing peasantry that constitute the generality of the spending public have been fed the idea that this is what constitutes computer literacy: ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
