[SOGo] How to install RPMForge
Hi, How to install this Some of the dependencies are provided by RPMForge. Before installing SOGo, install the following package to add RPMForge to your yum repositories: http://dag.wieers.com/rpm/packages/rpmforge-release/ Thanks and Regards, Joms <<10x10.gif>>
[SOGo] BTS activities for Monday, September 03 2012
Title: BTS activities for Monday, September 03 2012 BTS Activities Home page: http://www.sogo.nu/bugs Project: SOGo For the period covering: Monday, September 03 2012 idlast updatestatus (resolution)categorysummary 1966 2012-09-03 12:09:57 updated (open) Backend Mail addressed persons not displayed after sending 1974 2012-09-03 06:10:08 new (open) Web Address Book Can not send mail from the address book. 1891 2012-09-03 04:39:53 updated (open) Web Mail "subscriptions" file is not updated. 1973 2012-09-03 09:49:02 updated (open) Web Mail Recipient is not visible
Re: [SOGo] weird recipient address in sent folder
Bonjour, Le lundi 03 septembre 2012, Christian Mack a écrit... > > the mail seems to be correctly sent, but the recipient address appears > > to be no.u...@nodomain.com in the sent folder. > > > It's a bug new in 1.3.18, but it has nothing to do with the address book. > If you send an email to email address only (without a name), then it is > sent with empty To: field. > Example > => empty To: > "Mail Box" => valid To: > That's bug #1966 > http://www.sogo.nu/bugs/view.php?id=1966 Ok. I read the thread started by Sebastian but did not thought it was relative to my problem. Thanks a lot. -- jm -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
Re: [SOGo] problem using the web mailser sending to gap-dev-disc...@nongnu.org
Hi, On Monday, September 3, 2012 15:46 CEST, Christian Mack wrote: > Hello Sebastian Reitenbach > > > On 2012-09-03 15:10, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > > > > since upgrading to SOPE/SOGo 1.3.18, I have problems sending mails to > > gap-dev-disc...@nongnu.org. > > > > When I just create a new mail, enter the recipient address into the to > > field, the e-mail address > > automatically changes to > > > > Then I enter subject and body, and send it. However, in the Sent folder, > > the mail does not have a To: field > > it empty, when I view the message source via SOGo web interface: > < cut > > > That's a known bug in SOGo 1.3.18. > See bug #1966 > http://www.sogo.nu/bugs/view.php?id=1966 > > The work around is to give it a name too. > Example > "gap dev group" > will work as expected. > > will be empty after sending. thanks a bundle. I'm usually skimming through the BTS Activity mails, but obviously overlooked this report. testing with this mail whether it works ;) cheers, Sebastian > > > Kind regards, > Christian Mack > > -- > Christian Mack > Gruppe Informationsdienste > Rechenzentrum Universität Konstanz > -- > users@sogo.nu > https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
Re: [SOGo] SOGo lost session after 5 min inactivity
W dniu 09/03/2012 03:24 PM, Christian Mack pisze: On 2012-09-02 10:45, Bogusław Juza wrote: I have installed SOGo 1.3.18 from distribution packets on CentOS 6.3 x64. Multidomain configuration, LDAP auth. Everything works, but when user doesn't touch webgui at least 5 minutes, SOGo lost session and every new window/screen redirect to login page. >> ... There is no any information about it in SOGo log. Any ideas? What have you set in /etc/cron.d/sogo for session cleanup? 0 * * * * sogo /usr/sbin/sogo-tool expire-sessions 300 The session entry still exist in database, while webgui lost it and redirect to login page. Boguslaw Juza -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
Re: [SOGo] weird recipient address in sent folder
Hello Jean-Michel OLTRA On 2012-09-03 16:38, Jean-Michel OLTRA wrote: > > I have been told the following thing : if a user compose, and send, a > mail to some recipient who is not present in the address book, then > the mail seems to be correctly sent, but the recipient address appears > to be no.u...@nodomain.com in the sent folder. > > Configuration issue or bug ? Can someone confirm, please ? > It's a bug new in 1.3.18, but it has nothing to do with the address book. If you send an email to email address only (without a name), then it is sent with empty To: field. Example => empty To: "Mail Box"=> valid To: That's bug #1966 http://www.sogo.nu/bugs/view.php?id=1966 Kind regards, Christian Mack -- Christian Mack Gruppe Informationsdienste Rechenzentrum Universität Konstanz -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
[SOGo] SOGo 2.0rc5: Problems with openchange-ocsmanager on CentOS 6.3, python-simplejson version problem
I installed and configured the latest 2.0 SOGo release. Everything works correctly except the openchange-ocsmanager. The OpenChange web service immediatelly stops after start. I found in the log: File "/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/pkg_resources.py", line 648, in require needed = self.resolve(parse_requirements(requirements)) File "/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/pkg_resources.py", line 550, in resolve raise VersionConflict(dist,req) # XXX put more info here pkg_resources.VersionConflict: (simplejson 2.0.9 (/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages), Requirement.parse('simplejson>=2.2.1')) Removing PID file /var/run/ocsmanager/ocsmanager.pid There is no package python-simplejson with version >=2.2.1. The only package I found is python-simplejson-2.0.9-3.1.el6.i686.rpm from the "base" CentOS repository. I tried to install the package from tar using easy_install but I didn't succeed and I'd prefer a rpm version to simplify maintenance. Can you help me, please? Thank you Michal -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
[SOGo] weird recipient address in sent folder
Bonjour, I have been told the following thing : if a user compose, and send, a mail to some recipient who is not present in the address book, then the mail seems to be correctly sent, but the recipient address appears to be no.u...@nodomain.com in the sent folder. Configuration issue or bug ? Can someone confirm, please ? Thanks. -- jm -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
Re: [SOGo] Database from scratch
Jean Raby schrieb (31.08.2012 16:19 Uhr): On 12-08-31 10:02 AM, Marc Patermann wrote: the first error is related to memcached, make sure memcached is installed and running. The second exception looks like a configuration issue, but I cannot say more without seeing the output of 'sudo -u sogo defaults read sogod' I think this was all introduced by an to old version of SOPE and are gone now. Marc -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
Re: [SOGo] problem using the web mailser sending to gap-dev-disc...@nongnu.org
Hello Sebastian Reitenbach On 2012-09-03 15:10, Sebastian Reitenbach wrote: > > since upgrading to SOPE/SOGo 1.3.18, I have problems sending mails to > gap-dev-disc...@nongnu.org. > > When I just create a new mail, enter the recipient address into the to field, > the e-mail address > automatically changes to > > Then I enter subject and body, and send it. However, in the Sent folder, the > mail does not have a To: field > it empty, when I view the message source via SOGo web interface: < cut > That's a known bug in SOGo 1.3.18. See bug #1966 http://www.sogo.nu/bugs/view.php?id=1966 The work around is to give it a name too. Example "gap dev group" will work as expected. will be empty after sending. Kind regards, Christian Mack -- Christian Mack Gruppe Informationsdienste Rechenzentrum Universität Konstanz -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
Re: [SOGo] Thunderbird Reminder Issue
Il 31/08/2012 18:34, Ludovic Marcotte ha scritto: What we could do in SOGo Integrator to mitigate the issue is that after reading/refreshing the ACLs from the server, we could disable alarms to calendars where we can't write to. +1 Thanks Ludovic. -- Alessio Fattorini (alessio.fattor...@nethesis.it) nethesis srl - Via degli Olmi 12 - 61122 Pesaro (PU) tel. +39 0721 405516 - fax +39 0721 268147 www.nethesis.it - i...@nethesis.it -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
Re: [SOGo] SOGo lost session after 5 min inactivity
Hello Bogusław Juza On 2012-09-02 10:45, Bogusław Juza wrote: > > I have installed SOGo 1.3.18 from distribution packets on > CentOS 6.3 x64. Multidomain configuration, LDAP auth. Everything > works, but when user doesn't touch webgui at least 5 minutes, SOGo > lost session and every new window/screen redirect to login page. > > I tried to google this problem and found posts with > OCSSessionsFolderURL missing sugestion. But I have OCSSessionsFolderURL > set, mysqld is working and session entry appears in table. > > SOGoProfileURL > mysql://sogo:pass@mysql:3306/sogo/user_profile > OCSFolderInfoURL > mysql://sogo:pass@mysql:3306/sogo/folder_info > OCSSessionsFolderURL > mysql://sogo:pass@mysql:3306/sogo/sessions_folder > OCSEMailAlarmsFolderURL > mysql://sogo:pass@mysql:3306/sogo/alarms_folder > > SOGoMemcachedHost 127.0.0.1 > WOWorkersCount 8 > > There is no any information about it in SOGo log. Any ideas? > What have you set in /etc/cron.d/sogo for session cleanup? <...> # Session cleanup - runs every minute # - Ajust the nbMinutes parameter to suit your needs # Example: Sessions without activity since 60 minutes will be dropped: * * * * * sogo/usr/sbin/sogo-tool expire-sessions 60 <...> Kind regards, Christian Mack -- Christian Mack Gruppe Informationsdienste Rechenzentrum Universität Konstanz -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
[SOGo] problem using the web mailser sending to gap-dev-disc...@nongnu.org
Hi, since upgrading to SOPE/SOGo 1.3.18, I have problems sending mails to gap-dev-disc...@nongnu.org. When I just create a new mail, enter the recipient address into the to field, the e-mail address automatically changes to Then I enter subject and body, and send it. However, in the Sent folder, the mail does not have a To: field it empty, when I view the message source via SOGo web interface: User-Agent: SOGoMail 1.3.18 X-Forward: 127.0.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 from: "Sebastian Reitenbach" subject: Re: [Gap-dev-discuss] Stop GNUMail from segfaulting on Quit message-id: <7a24-5044ab00-1-6b8b4580@178141892> to: content-type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:05:32 +0200 content-length: 1909 content-transfer-encoding: 7bit When I reply to a message, then the e-mail address is without the <> in the To: field. Sending this message out, There is a To: field in the mail header, but the last two characters are stripped. User-Agent: SOGoMail 1.3.18 X-Forward: 127.0.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 from: "Sebastian Reitenbach" subject: Re: [Gap-dev-discuss] Stop GNUMail from segfaulting on Quit message-id: <123d-5044a280-27-6b8b4580@109792238> to: gap-dev-discuss@nongnu.o content-type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 14:29:04 +0200 in-reply-to: <50449de7.7060...@libero.it> content-length: 1955 content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The envelope seems to get created well, see from the SOGo log files using SMTP mailing mechanism: 2012-09-03 14:39:50.352 sogod[32731] WARNING(-[NSNull(misc) length]): called NSNull -length (returns 0) !!! C: connect to <0x0x20a3fe148[NGInternetSocketAddress]: host=127.0.0.1 not-filled> S: C: EHLO localhost S: S: pipelining extension supported. S: size extension supported. C: MAIL FROM: C: RCPT TO: C: DATA S: C: data(2306 bytes) .. S: C: QUIT S: It doesn't matter if I switch to using sendmail mailing mechanism. In my mail log, I see the mail going out, but with the broken or missing To field. The same problem is in OpenGroupware too. Sending a mail to this e-mail address, it only sends to gap-dev-discuss@nongnu.o instead of using the full address in the To field. I can send to other addresses and lists successfully, this is the only address where I recognized this strange problem. Any idea where this could come from? How to debug this? Since OpenGroupware has the same problem, there must be somewhere in SOPE. Any hint on what may have changed there, and where to look is appreciated. A suggestion where I should put a breakpoint? For the time being, I have to resort back to use GNUMail to send to that list ;) cheers, Sebastian -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
[SOGo] problem sending to some e-mail addresses
Hi, since upgrading to SOPE/SOGo 1.3.18, I have problems sending mails to gap-dev-disc...@nongnu.org, and as I just recognized, to users@sogo.nu too. When I just create a new mail, enter the recipient address into the to field, the e-mail address automatically changes to Then I enter subject and body, and send it. However, in the Sent folder, the mail does not have a To: field it empty, when I view the message source via SOGo web interface: User-Agent: SOGoMail 1.3.18 X-Forward: 127.0.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 from: "Sebastian Reitenbach" subject: Re: [Gap-dev-discuss] Stop GNUMail from segfaulting on Quit message-id: <7a24-5044ab00-1-6b8b4580@178141892> to: content-type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:05:32 +0200 content-length: 1909 content-transfer-encoding: 7bit When I reply to a message, then the e-mail address is without the <> in the To: field. Sending this message out, There is a To: field in the mail header, but the last two characters are stripped. User-Agent: SOGoMail 1.3.18 X-Forward: 127.0.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 from: "Sebastian Reitenbach" subject: Re: [Gap-dev-discuss] Stop GNUMail from segfaulting on Quit message-id: <123d-5044a280-27-6b8b4580@109792238> to: gap-dev-discuss@nongnu.o content-type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 14:29:04 +0200 in-reply-to: <50449de7.7060...@libero.it> content-length: 1955 content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The envelope seems to get created well, see from the SOGo log files using SMTP mailing mechanism: 2012-09-03 14:39:50.352 sogod[32731] WARNING(-[NSNull(misc) length]): called NSNull -length (returns 0) !!! C: connect to <0x0x20a3fe148[NGInternetSocketAddress]: host=127.0.0.1 not-filled> S: C: EHLO localhost S: S: pipelining extension supported. S: size extension supported. C: MAIL FROM: C: RCPT TO: C: DATA S: C: data(2306 bytes) .. S: C: QUIT S: It doesn't matter if I switch to using sendmail mailing mechanism. In my mail log, I see the mail going out, but with the broken or missing To field. The same problem is in OpenGroupware too. Sending a mail to this e-mail address, it only sends to gap-dev-discuss@nongnu.o instead of using the full address in the To field. I can send to other addresses and lists successfully, this is the only address where I recognized this strange problem. Any idea where this could come from? How to debug this? Since OpenGroupware has the same problem, there must be somewhere in SOPE. Any hint on what may have changed there, and where to look is appreciated. A suggestion where I should put a breakpoint? For the time being, I have to resort back to use GNUMail to send to that list ;) cheers, Sebastian -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
Re: [SOGo] Delete event from ical
Hello Albert Shih On 2012-09-03 10:52, Albert Shih wrote: > > I've got some problem with iCal (5.x) and Sogo 1.3.17 (I don't known if the > problem exist in previous release). > > Some user use sogo through ical. > > If they create a event using ical, and delete this event from sogo-web > inteface the event still exist in ical. > > I known you going to ask me why create/delete from different place. In fact > it's not always the same person who delete/create. > > Anyone have any solution of that ? > Did you try to manually synchronize iCal? Kind regards, Christian Mack -- Christian Mack Gruppe Informationsdienste Rechenzentrum Universität Konstanz -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
Re: [SOGo] How to disable Debug Info
Hello Bogusław Juza On 2012-09-02 11:58, Bogusław Juza wrote: > > From SOGo log: > > 2012-09-02 09:51:46.804 sogod[16373] Note(SoObject): SoDebugKeyLookup is > enabled! > 2012-09-02 09:51:46.804 sogod[16373] Note(SoObject): SoDebugBaseURL is > enabled! > > How to disable these debugs? > They are not mentioned at: http://www.sogo.nu/english/nc/support/faq/article/how-to-enable-more-verbose-logging-in-sogo.html Have you tried to disable these by setting them to "NO"? defaults write sogod SoDebugKeyLookup 'NO' defaults write sogod SoDebugBaseURL 'NO' Kind regards, Christian Mack -- Christian Mack Gruppe Informationsdienste Rechenzentrum Universität Konstanz -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
[SOGo] unsuscribe
-- Guillaume JULLIEN Mobile 06 24 68 25 24 Fax 05 57 96 83 58 Mail g.jull...@aquilog.fr Web www.aquilog.fr
Re: [SOGo] Database from scratch
Jean, Jean Raby schrieb (31.08.2012 16:19 Uhr): EXCEPTION: NAME:NSInvalidArgumentException REASON:NGLdapEntry(instance) does not recognize asDictionary INFO:(null) The second exception looks like a configuration issue, but I cannot say more without seeing the output of 'sudo -u sogo defaults read sogod' While searching for the error message in the list archive, I found it related to not updated SOPE packages. While I build sogo myself, I build a recent version of sogo but did not changed the SOPE packages I found. I'm just changing this at the moment. I hope this will help on this issue. Marc -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
[SOGo] Problems wih address book list syncronization
Title: firma Firma Good morning at all the list. I have some problem with the syncronization of address book list. I tested this problem with: SOGo 1.3.16 Server: SME SERVER 8.0 Client: Thunderbird 15 SOGo connecto 10.0.3 Lightning 1.7 Also i tryed with: Thunderbird 14 SOGo connecto 10.0.2 Lightning 1.7 And with: Thunderbird 14 SOGo connecto 10.0.3 Lightning 1.7 I made the same test with another server: SOGo 1.3.4 Server: SME SERVER 8.0 And the same client cofiguration. All the lcient configuration are tested in windows XP 32bit and windows 7 64bit. When i create a list in TB and then i add some addresses to it it won't sync. If i add one address, close TB adn reopen it and then add onother one it sync, but if i add more then one it fail. Also i notice that if i try to sync more than 30 contacts in one list with windows 7 a contacts disappear from the list show. It seems that the missing contact is the last insert. I take a look to the sogo.log file, but it didn't show any error. Thanks for any advice! Luca -- BITRADE S.r.l. Sede Legale e Operativa Via Ferrara 20 19125 La Spezia (SP) Tel. +39 0187 1995161 Fax +39 0187 1997479 P.IVA e C.F. 01254880113 email i...@bitrade.it www.bitrade.it PARTNER: - -A R P R O DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any file transmitted with it may contain material that is confidential, privileged and/or attorney work product for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, please do not read this e-mail and notify us immediately by reply e-mail or by telephone and then delete this message and any file attached from your system. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, disclose the contents of the same to any other person or forward it without express permission. Considering the means of transmission, we do not undertake any liability with respect to the secrecy and confidentiality of the information contained in this e-mail and in its attachments. Fax +39 0187 1995161 Il presente messaggio di posta elettronica e ogni eventuale documento a quest'ultimo allegato potrebbe avere carattere riservato ed essere tutelato dal segreto professionale ed è ad esclusivo utilizzo del destinatario indicato in indirizzo. Qualora non foste il destinatario del presente messaggio Vi preghiamo di volerci avvertire immediatamente tramite posta elettronica o telefonicamente e di cancellare il presente messaggio e ogni documento ad esso allegato dal Vostro sistema. E' vietata la duplicazione o l'utilizzo per qualunque fine del presente messaggio e di ogni documento ad esso allegato così come la relativa divulgazione, distribuzione o inoltro a terzi senza l'espressa autorizzazione del mittente.
[SOGo] Delete event from ical
Hi, I've got some problem with iCal (5.x) and Sogo 1.3.17 (I don't known if the problem exist in previous release). Some user use sogo through ical. If they create a event using ical, and delete this event from sogo-web inteface the event still exist in ical. I known you going to ask me why create/delete from different place. In fact it's not always the same person who delete/create. Anyone have any solution of that ? Regards. JAS -- Albert SHIH DIO bâtiment 15 Observatoire de Paris 5 Place Jules Janssen 92195 Meudon Cedex Téléphone : 01 45 07 76 26/06 86 69 95 71 xmpp: j...@jabber.obspm.fr Heure local/Local time: lun 3 sep 2012 10:48:50 CEST -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists
Re: [SOGo] "An unhandled error occurred." [was: Database from scratch]
Jean, Jean Raby schrieb (31.08.2012 16:19 Uhr): On 12-08-31 10:02 AM, Marc Patermann wrote: based on the work of user oeufdure I was able to successfully build 1.3.17 with opensuse build service (and building 1.3.18 now). In the installation document I find nothing about preparing the database itself (creating tables etc.). Does SOGo do this on its own? SOGo will do it when it starts. OK, thank you! I'm surely missing something. don't run the upgrade scripts since you're not upgrading ;-) OK. :) sogo.log complains about: Aug 31 15:40:07 sogod [5092]: <0x0xbe04c8[SOGoCache]> an error occurred when caching value for key 'session:sGbfC6sNsK36Sau8o++NaA==': "WRITE FAILURE" EXCEPTION: NAME:NSInvalidArgumentException REASON:NGLdapEntry(instance) does not recognize asDictionary INFO:(null) the first error is related to memcached, make sure memcached is installed and running. # netstat -lptun Active Internet connections (only servers) Proto Recv-Q Send-Q Local Address Foreign Address State PID/Program name tcp0 0 0.0.0.0:2 0.0.0.0:* LISTEN 21042/sogod tcp0 0 127.0.0.1:11211 0.0.0.0:* LISTEN 19483/memcached tcp0 0 0.0.0.0:111 0.0.0.0:* LISTEN 2057/rpcbind tcp0 0 0.0.0.0:22 0.0.0.0:* LISTEN 2274/sshd tcp0 0 127.0.0.1:5432 0.0.0.0:* LISTEN 782/postmaster tcp0 0 127.0.0.1:250.0.0.0:* LISTEN 2356/master tcp0 0 :::111 :::* LISTEN 2057/rpcbind tcp0 0 :::80 :::* LISTEN 2728/httpd2-prefork tcp0 0 :::22 :::* LISTEN 2274/sshd tcp0 0 ::1:5432:::* LISTEN 782/postmaster tcp0 0 ::1:25 :::* LISTEN 2356/master udp0 0 0.0.0.0:957 0.0.0.0:* 2057/rpcbind udp0 0 127.0.0.1:11211 0.0.0.0:* 19483/memcached udp0 0 0.0.0.0:111 0.0.0.0:* 2057/rpcbind udp0 0 :::957 :::* 2057/rpcbind udp0 0 :::111 :::* 2057/rpcbind memcached is started. The second exception looks like a configuration issue, but I cannot say more without seeing the output of 'sudo -u sogo defaults read sogod' Here it is: :~> defaults read sogod sogod SOGoSieveScriptsEnabled YES sogod SOGoEnableEMailAlarms YES sogod SOGoForwardEnabled YES sogod OCSFolderInfoURL postgresql://sogo:sogo@127.0.0.1:5432/sogo/sogo_folder_info sogod SOGoUserSources '( { CNFieldName = cn; IDFieldName = employeenumber; UIDFieldName = initials; baseDN = "ou=humans,ou=foo"; bindAsCurrentUser = YES; bindDN = ""; bindFields = ( initials, mail ); bindPassword = ""; canAuthenticate = YES; displayName = "LDAP Steuer"; hostname = "server.name"; id = public; isAddressBook = YES; type = ldap; } )' sogod OCSSessionsFolderURL postgresql://sogo:sogo@127.0.0.1:5432/sogo/sogo_sessions_info sogod SOGoIMAPServer server.name sogod SOGoMemcachedHost 127.0.0.1 sogod SOGoSieveServer sieve://server.name:2000 sogod SOGoTimeZone Europe/Berlin sogod OCSEMailAlarmsFolderURL postgresql://sogo:sogo@127.0.0.1:5432/sogo/sogo_alarms_folder sogod SOGoAppointmentSendEMailNotifications YES sogod SOGoVacationEnabled YES sogod SOGoProfileURL postgresql://sogo:sogo@127.0.0.1:5432/sogo/sogo_user_profile I cannot log in to SOGo. The web interface states: "An unhandled error occurred." Marc -- users@sogo.nu https://inverse.ca/sogo/lists