Re: OT bad news
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 15:05 -0700, Quanah Gibson-Mount wrote: --On Monday, October 05, 2009 11:50 PM +0200 mouss mo...@ml.netoyen.net wrote: Thomas Mullins a écrit : We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. and the problem is? if they want exchange, give them exchange. don't fight (directly), watch instead. take pleasure of the situation, get fun as you can. I personally took fun all day long in windows-only (and believe it or not, in linux-only) environments. that said, you can still try to explain that exchange should not be exposed to the internet. you still need a relay (such as freebsd/postfix). And once exchange falls over, show them Zimbra. ;) Which uses postfix/SA/amavis, etc, and looks a lot like exchange... only better. ;) Isnt zimbra dead as yet ? Yahoo deliberately messed it I believe , and now look to dump it Anyway I think people run away from open source because it is unsupported. Management doesnt want to have any indispensable IT team , so that they can always recruit some cheap M$$ trained guy from the market to do a dirty job. There is also security in question. If something goes wrong with your linux/BSD box *you* will be blamed. If something goes wrong with m$ box (as usual) they would claim that that is how it is supposed to work :-). After all it is from the leading software makers. Never mind that the management also get sponsored International holidays for putting their entire budget in worthless stuff. --Quanah -- Quanah Gibson-Mount Principal Software Engineer Zimbra, Inc Zimbra :: the leader in open source messaging and collaboration
Re: OT bad news
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: Gary Smith wrote: Let them have as much Windows stuff as they want. Just plead the case to supplement. I'll have to repeat, for the original poster this isn't a technology vs technology argument. If it was, his coworkers would be listing specific things Exchange does that FreeBSD/SA does not do. This is a political battle. He is essentially in the position of a mechanic that someone brings their car to for repair, then sits there telling the mechanic what tools he should be using to repair their car. If the car gets repaired the owner claims that they knew how to repair the car better than the mechanic and the mechanic was an idiot. If the car repair fails the owner claims the mechanic is incompetent and an idiot. Either way, once your boss starts micromanaging, your going to be screwed whether you do a good job or not. He's tried rescuing the situation for 8 years, now your giving advice to help him rescue the situation more. If he helps them by keeping the BSD server in reserve, and they fall flat on their face and he rescues them, then it just is teaching them what to fix on their Exchange setup. They will try it again - perhaps falling flat again - and this will continue over and over with them putting more powerful hardware and more expensive add-on software on their exchange box until eventually they will figure it out, make him get rid of the BSD box - then they won't fall flat anymore. Then they will claim how much better Exchange works, completely ignoring the fact that he helped them troubleshoot their exchange setup. There is absolutely no fix for these types other than to let them fail and not help them back up - just let them be fired for incompetence. Trust me - even if that happened to these coworkers they will just go to the next employer that's a Windows only shop and will never once believe that the Windows solution is worse. It's just like the people who believe in Apple. They will go spend $1K on an iMac and accessories and get -exactly- the same thing that I can build with FreeBSD and a whitebox clone for a quarter of the cost - but will never believe that they overpaid for what they have. Ted (Standing ovation on both emails) -- Dan Schaefer Web Developer/Systems Analyst Performance Administration Corp.
Re: OT bad news
On 5-Oct-2009, at 14:49, Thomas Mullins wrote: I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the Exchange box straight to the Net. It's a shame that, living in Denver, I will be *just* out of range of hearing the screams as the mailspools fill with viruses, malware, and massive payloads of Spanish Prinsoner spams. Really, it should be fun. Personally, I would NOT keep the old setup standing by unless specifically told to. I would rebuild it, slowly. Take a few days, maybe a week, to get it all back online. After all, once the panic starts, its worth it to teach them a lesson. Also, there's going to be some advantage to building a nice new install with updated everything, right? It's not like you'd be being VINDICTIVE, just cautious, right? -- Battlemage? That's not a profession. It barely qualifies as a hobby. 'Battlemage' is about impressive a title as 'Lord of the Dance'. PAUSE I'm adding Lord of the Dance to my titles.
Re: OT bad news
On 5-Oct-2009, at 16:58, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: It's just like the people who believe in Apple. They will go spend $1K on an iMac and accessories and get -exactly- the same thing that I can build with FreeBSD and a whitebox clone for a quarter of the cost - but will never believe that they overpaid for what they have. Now if that were true then a lot of Unix admins would not have Macs for their personal machines. If you're buying a machine to be a mailserver then buying an iMac is silly. If you're buying a machine to use and to administer unix server, then a Mac is a fine choice (Probably not an iMac, a MacBookPro). The question is are there things you want your computer to do outside of the command line? -- Mac OS X, because making Unix user-friendly was easier than fixing Windows
Re: OT bad news
- Quanah Gibson-Mount qua...@zimbra.com wrote: | --On Monday, October 05, 2009 11:50 PM +0200 mouss | mo...@ml.netoyen.net | wrote: | | Thomas Mullins a écrit : | We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, | my | coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained | enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable | FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing | something | that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. | | | | and the problem is? | | if they want exchange, give them exchange. don't fight (directly), | watch | instead. take pleasure of the situation, get fun as you can. I | personally took fun all day long in windows-only (and believe it or | not, | in linux-only) environments. | | | that said, you can still try to explain that exchange should not be | exposed to the internet. you still need a relay (such as | freebsd/postfix). | | | And once exchange falls over, show them Zimbra. ;) Which uses | postfix/SA/amavis, etc, and looks a lot like exchange... only better. | ;) | | --Quanah | Seconded :) Best Regards, -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content and is believed to be clean. SplatNIX IT Services :: Innovation through collaboration
RE: OT bad news
I have no explanation, Their supposed complaint is, they don't know *nix. But my coworker and I manage those boxes, so even if one of us left, there would be at least one person to run those boxes. SA/ClamAV has been working great. Our BSD box sits in front of the Exchange, hands off clean mail, what more could you ask for. We have two boxes, in case we need to take one down for an upgrade. I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the Exchange box straight to the Net. Shane Shane, you have probably already thought of and done this yet just in case... document the entire history of these boxes and save the configs of course... plus compile as much the functional statistics as you can over the life (logs) of those servers re: how much total email and how much malware and ham and spam and rejected and delivered email qty etc etc... that way, when the doodie hits the fan and end users are screaming over the huge increase in spam, you have hard stats that tell the real story and write the one page paper about it... whether now, or later, possibly consider distributing it to people that seriously need to know. - rh
RE: OT bad news
(Standing ovation on both emails) -- Dan Schaefer Web Developer/Systems Analyst Performance Administration Corp. I feel beat down now :( j/k
Re: OT bad news
Hi, It's a shame that, living in Denver, I will be *just* out of range of hearing the screams as the mailspools fill with viruses, malware, and massive payloads of Spanish Prinsoner spams. Awe, c'mon now. Yes, I agree SA is a better solution, but Microsoft didn't get to be a multi-billion-dollar company solely because of its marketing. Certainly a competent admin following some SANS guides can secure an Exchange box to sufficiently avoid it getting hacked, and a properly-installed version of Symantec will keep most spam away. It /is/ possible, I suppose :-) I'd bet that if he kept the FreeBSD box in place and just told his boss he upgraded to Exchange, they'd never even know :-) Regards, Alex
Re: OT bad news
Quanah Gibson-Mount a écrit : --On Monday, October 05, 2009 11:50 PM +0200 mouss mo...@ml.netoyen.net wrote: Thomas Mullins a écrit : We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. and the problem is? if they want exchange, give them exchange. don't fight (directly), watch instead. take pleasure of the situation, get fun as you can. I personally took fun all day long in windows-only (and believe it or not, in linux-only) environments. that said, you can still try to explain that exchange should not be exposed to the internet. you still need a relay (such as freebsd/postfix). And once exchange falls over, show them Zimbra. ;) Which uses postfix/SA/amavis, etc, and looks a lot like exchange... only better. ;) I have to chose between zimbra and exchange, I'll go for exchange. but I don't need to chose between the two. I want different components for different tasks. and for many things, I go for web oriented solutions.
Re: OT bad news
On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 4:12 AM, Dan Schaefer d...@performanceadmin.com wrote: I'll have to repeat, for the original poster this isn't a technology vs technology argument. If it was, his coworkers would be listing specific things Exchange does that FreeBSD/SA does not do. (Standing ovation on both emails) Uncloaking to vigorously second. Ted is so painfully right on that I wish that it were otherwise (out of sympathy for the OP). Royce
OT bad news
We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. Shane
Re: OT bad news
Thomas Mullins wrote: We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. Shane We are sorry to see you leave. :-( -- Dan Schaefer Web Developer/Systems Analyst Performance Administration Corp.
RE: OT bad news
Glad I don't live in Virginia!! I hate to see my tax dollars wasted because people don't understand OpenSource.. Especially in these troubled times. From: Thomas Mullins [mailto:tsmull...@wise.k12.va.us] Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 15:42 To: users@spamassassin.apache.org Subject: OT bad news We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. Shane
Re: OT bad news
We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. Shane Indeed. However, if you have a competent feeling about yourself, you might be tempted to search for new opportunities ;) Nah.. you do what your boss sees is good. It's not your money, I guess.
Re: OT bad news
Heh. If you want, try to convince them to use ASSP: http://assp.sourceforge.net/ It's open source too, but it does run on an Exchange box, from what I've heard, and I've only ever heard good things about it. I must say, I'm surprised, given the state of the economy, that they've made this decision. They must think that the school district is rich... Kurt On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 12:42, Thomas Mullins tsmull...@wise.k12.va.us wrote: We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. Shane
Re: OT bad news
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 15:42 -0400, Thomas Mullins wrote:
We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something
that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer.
Wow, now that sounds like really bad news for you [1] and your coworkers
indeed. :-/ And not the second best option either...
[1] And Jefferson Davis? The k12.[cv]a.us domain coincidence today
strikes me as quite odd.
--
char *t=\10pse\0r\0dtu...@ghno\x4e\xc8\x79\xf4\xab\x51\x8a\x10\xf4\xf4\xc4;
main(){ char h,m=h=*t++,*x=t+2*h,c,i,l=*x,s=0; for (i=0;il;i++){ i%8? c=1:
(c=*++x); c128 (s+=h); if (!(h=1)||!t[s+h]){ putchar(t[s]);h=m;s=0; }}}
Re: OT bad news
There are some that still don't get the value of opensource... Go figure.
In a down economy it makes even more sense... Many of my collegues in other
districts are finally taking notice, then really liking the high quality of the
software once they get their feet wet.
I cannot profess to be any kind of expert (see previous post today for an
example) but we've been using as much OSS as we can justify for almost 10 years
now.
We just don't experience the pain that some of my exchange-using collegues do...
- Message from guent...@rudersport.de -
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:00:08 +0200
From: Karsten Bräckelmann guent...@rudersport.de
Subject: Re: OT bad news
To: users@spamassassin.apache.org
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 15:42 -0400, Thomas Mullins wrote:
We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my
coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained
enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable
FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something
that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer.
Wow, now that sounds like really bad news for you [1] and your coworkers
indeed. :-/ And not the second best option either...
[1] And Jefferson Davis? The k12.[cv]a.us domain coincidence today
strikes me as quite odd.
--
char *t=\10pse\0r\0dtu...@ghno\x4e\xc8\x79\xf4\xab\x51\x8a\x10\xf4\xf4\xc4;
main(){ char h,m=h=*t++,*x=t+2*h,c,i,l=*x,s=0; for (i=0;il;i++){ i%8? c=1:
(c=*++x); c128 (s+=h); if (!(h=1)||!t[s+h]){ putchar(t[s]);h=m;s=0; }}}
- End message from guent...@rudersport.de -
--
Jefferson K Davis
Technology and Information Systems Manager
Standard School District
1200 North Chester Ave
Bakersfield, CA 93308
661.392.2110
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
Re: OT bad news
On 10/5/2009 9:42 PM, Thomas Mullins wrote: We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. this reminds me of an ex boss who once said Open Source is useless because it doesn't have a GUI. just keep a machine with your setup read to go.. for the day when their Exchange explodes (hello GFI!!!). good luck
Re: OT bad news
Hi, On Mon, 05.10.2009 at 15:42:04 -0400, Thomas Mullins tsmull...@wise.k12.va.us wrote: We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. more OT, but I'd like to learn the details of their complaints, and their reasoning, and/or why you could not convince them to stay with Open Source. They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. Indeed. My condolences, --Toni++
Re: OT bad news
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Thomas Mullins wrote: We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. Take bets on how much spam will start getting through. Don't let then welch. -- John Hardin KA7OHZhttp://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/ jhar...@impsec.orgFALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhar...@impsec.org key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79 --- Any time law enforcement becomes a revenue center, the system becomes corrupt. --- Approximately 9190800 firearms legally purchased in the U.S. this year
Re: OT bad news
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Jefferson Davis wrote: There are some that still don't get the value of opensource... Go figure. My employer has contracts that specify no open source. I guess the comfort of the illusion of having somebody to sue is a strong attraction. -- John Hardin KA7OHZhttp://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/ jhar...@impsec.orgFALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhar...@impsec.org key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79 --- Any time law enforcement becomes a revenue center, the system becomes corrupt. --- Approximately 9190800 firearms legally purchased in the U.S. this year
Re: OT bad news
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 22:00 +0200, Karsten Bräckelmann wrote: On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 15:42 -0400, Thomas Mullins wrote: We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. Wow, now that sounds like really bad news for you [1] and your coworkers indeed. :-/ And not the second best option either... [1] And Jefferson Davis? The k12.[cv]a.us domain coincidence today strikes me as quite odd. k12 means a school district (Elementary through High School). California and Virginia are on opposite coasts of the US. .us often has 4 levels, like sos.state.tx.us is the root for the Texas Secretary of State's office. But not always. I own a couple of example.us domains. -- Daniel J McDonald, CCIE # 2495, CISSP # 78281, CNX www.austinenergy.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: OT bad news
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 13:13 -0700, Jefferson Davis wrote:
There are some that still don't get the value of opensource... Go
figure.
[...]
We just don't experience the pain that some of my exchange-using
collegues do...
Since we're off-topic anyway -- I take this response, and the mention of
school district earlier in this thread, that this indeed is just a
strange coincidence and infrastructural independent states.
Now, if someone could briefly enlighten me about the structure,
relation, and what the k12 means... :)
From: Karsten Bräckelmann guent...@rudersport.de
[1] And Jefferson Davis? The k12.[cv]a.us domain coincidence today
strikes me as quite odd.
--
char *t=\10pse\0r\0dtu...@ghno\x4e\xc8\x79\xf4\xab\x51\x8a\x10\xf4\xf4\xc4;
main(){ char h,m=h=*t++,*x=t+2*h,c,i,l=*x,s=0; for (i=0;il;i++){ i%8? c=1:
(c=*++x); c128 (s+=h); if (!(h=1)||!t[s+h]){ putchar(t[s]);h=m;s=0; }}}
Re: OT bad news
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 22:33 +0200, Karsten Bräckelmann wrote:
Since we're off-topic anyway -- I take this response, and the mention of
school district earlier in this thread, that this indeed is just a
strange coincidence and infrastructural independent states.
Now, if someone could briefly enlighten me about the structure,
relation, and what the k12 means... :)
Heh, scratch that -- I see Dan already answered this. :) Oh, and so did
someone off-list right this moment. Thanks!
--
char *t=\10pse\0r\0dtu...@ghno\x4e\xc8\x79\xf4\xab\x51\x8a\x10\xf4\xf4\xc4;
main(){ char h,m=h=*t++,*x=t+2*h,c,i,l=*x,s=0; for (i=0;il;i++){ i%8? c=1:
(c=*++x); c128 (s+=h); if (!(h=1)||!t[s+h]){ putchar(t[s]);h=m;s=0; }}}
Re: OT bad news
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 13:23 -0700, John Hardin wrote:
I guess the comfort of the illusion of having somebody to sue is a strong
attraction.
Now there's one argument to start smoking...
(SCNR, and it's probably the cold speaking anyway. ;)
--
char *t=\10pse\0r\0dtu...@ghno\x4e\xc8\x79\xf4\xab\x51\x8a\x10\xf4\xf4\xc4;
main(){ char h,m=h=*t++,*x=t+2*h,c,i,l=*x,s=0; for (i=0;il;i++){ i%8? c=1:
(c=*++x); c128 (s+=h); if (!(h=1)||!t[s+h]){ putchar(t[s]);h=m;s=0; }}}
Re: OT bad news
k12 is kindergarten through 12th grade in US schools...
- Message from guent...@rudersport.de -
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:33:26 +0200
From: Karsten Bräckelmann guent...@rudersport.de
Subject: Re: OT bad news
To: users@spamassassin.apache.org
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 13:13 -0700, Jefferson Davis wrote:
There are some that still don't get the value of opensource... Go
figure.
[...]
We just don't experience the pain that some of my exchange-using
collegues do...
Since we're off-topic anyway -- I take this response, and the mention of
school district earlier in this thread, that this indeed is just a
strange coincidence and infrastructural independent states.
Now, if someone could briefly enlighten me about the structure,
relation, and what the k12 means... :)
From: Karsten Bräckelmann guent...@rudersport.de
[1] And Jefferson Davis? The k12.[cv]a.us domain coincidence today
strikes me as quite odd.
--
char *t=\10pse\0r\0dtu...@ghno\x4e\xc8\x79\xf4\xab\x51\x8a\x10\xf4\xf4\xc4;
main(){ char h,m=h=*t++,*x=t+2*h,c,i,l=*x,s=0; for (i=0;il;i++){ i%8? c=1:
(c=*++x); c128 (s+=h); if (!(h=1)||!t[s+h]){ putchar(t[s]);h=m;s=0; }}}
- End message from guent...@rudersport.de -
--
Jefferson K Davis
Technology and Information Systems Manager
Standard School District
1200 North Chester Ave
Bakersfield, CA 93308
661.392.2110
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
RE: OT bad news
I have no explanation, Their supposed complaint is, they don't know *nix. But my coworker and I manage those boxes, so even if one of us left, there would be at least one person to run those boxes. SA/ClamAV has been working great. Our BSD box sits in front of the Exchange, hands off clean mail, what more could you ask for. We have two boxes, in case we need to take one down for an upgrade. I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the Exchange box straight to the Net. Shane From: Toni Mueller [mailto:support-spamassas...@oeko.net] Sent: Mon 10/5/2009 4:13 PM To: users@spamassassin.apache.org Subject: Re: OT bad news Hi, On Mon, 05.10.2009 at 15:42:04 -0400, Thomas Mullins tsmull...@wise.k12.va.us wrote: We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. more OT, but I'd like to learn the details of their complaints, and their reasoning, and/or why you could not convince them to stay with Open Source. They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. Indeed. My condolences, --Toni++
RE: OT bad news
On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Thomas Mullins wrote: I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the Exchange box straight to the Net. Second bet: how long it takes after doing that before the box is 0wned. Of course, if you admin that box too, that bet might be shooting yourself in the foot... :) -- John Hardin KA7OHZhttp://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/ jhar...@impsec.orgFALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhar...@impsec.org key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79 --- You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot help small men by tearing down big men. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot lift the wage-earner by pulling down the wage-payer. You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich. You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot establish security on borrowed money. You cannot build character and courage by taking away men's initiative and independence. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. -- William J. H. Boetcker --- Approximately 9192180 firearms legally purchased in the U.S. this year
RE: OT bad news
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 16:49 -0400, Thomas Mullins wrote: I have no explanation, I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the Exchange box straight to the Net. They probably just want to connect their iPhones to the exchange server with Active-Sync, and couldn't be bothered with asking you to set up authentication so that it would work. Dovecot authenticating against Active-Directory would have been fine But PHB's always know best. But do keep your boxes available, for when their servers melt into a puddle -- Daniel J McDonald, CCIE # 2495, CISSP # 78281, CNX www.austinenergy.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
RE: OT bad news
On Mon, 2009-10-05 at 16:49 -0400, Thomas Mullins wrote: Their supposed complaint is, they don't know *nix. Poor babies. Why doesn't your boss give 'em each a copy of 'Linux in a Nutshell' (or the BSD equivalent) and a week to read it? If they're competent that should be enough for them to get by. I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the Exchange box straight to the Net. Offer residual/scrap value for the boxes and move them off-site. With luck you'll be in pocket in a few weeks when they want them back. If not, you'll still have cheap boxes. And don't forget to place those bets. Martin
RE: OT bad news
Not my box, I am on the network side of things Shane From: John Hardin [mailto:jhar...@impsec.org] Sent: Mon 10/5/2009 5:11 PM To: users@spamassassin.apache.org Cc: Toni Mueller Subject: RE: OT bad news On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Thomas Mullins wrote: I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the Exchange box straight to the Net. Second bet: how long it takes after doing that before the box is 0wned. Of course, if you admin that box too, that bet might be shooting yourself in the foot... :) -- John Hardin KA7OHZhttp://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/ jhar...@impsec.orgFALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhar...@impsec.org key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79 --- You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot help small men by tearing down big men. You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot lift the wage-earner by pulling down the wage-payer. You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich. You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income. You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred. You cannot establish security on borrowed money. You cannot build character and courage by taking away men's initiative and independence. You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves. -- William J. H. Boetcker --- Approximately 9192180 firearms legally purchased in the U.S. this year
Re: OT bad news
Shane (Or Thomas) This isn't a debate about Open Source vs commercial software as much as you would like to think that it is. This is a debate about something that your familiar with (FreeBSD/Spamassassin) and that none of your coworkers are familiar with, vs something that your coworkers are (possibly) familiar with and that you (possibly) are not. In other words, it's about job security, and about ambition. You have had a FreeBSD/Spamassassin solution for 8 years and you have spent the time to learn it, and your coworkers have screwed off rather than learn how it works. Your coworkers finally wised up enough to realize that because you are the go-to guy, and they aren't, that you can't be fired and they can. So their logic, which is typical lazy man's logic, is to get rid of this system that they think it hard to understand and replace it with a system that they think it easier to understand, so they can do the minimum amount of work to learn the system. You are naive enough to think that once the new Exchange system comes into use that things won't settle back into the same rut. What your going to find is that once Exchange is online, your lazy-assed coworkers aren't going to do anything more to learn the system than they do now, and that your going to end up learning the system - and a year from now, your still going to be the go-to guy, pulling their hineys out of the fire. The big difference, is that there will be a system in place that your lazy-assed coworkers can con your boss into believing that they understand. So in other words right now, your doing all the work on the mailsystem, and getting all the credit. Once your coworkers finish with you, your STILL going to be doing all the work - but THEY will be taking all the credit. What you need to be doing is polishing up your resume then start applying and get yourself a job offer that pays better than what you have. It might take a year of looking for this. And in the meantime, if you want to get some well-earned revenge against your coworkers, then you need to learn Exchange inside and out, so that the day you walk into your bosses office and tell him your quitting, that in the instant he realizes that he's going to be screwed and starts begging you not to leave, that you can tell him that if he had supported you against your coworker morons a year ago, you would support him now - but that since he didn't, he's going to have to deal with those lazy-asses now. You stuck your horse's head in the water for 8 years and your still pouring the water down his throat to get him to drink. Time to let him die, and find another horse. Some of them are too pig-headed to ever be trained. Ted Mittelstaedt Author, FreeBSD Corporate Networker's Guide Thomas Mullins wrote: We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. Shane
Re: OT bad news
Thomas Mullins a écrit : We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. and the problem is? if they want exchange, give them exchange. don't fight (directly), watch instead. take pleasure of the situation, get fun as you can. I personally took fun all day long in windows-only (and believe it or not, in linux-only) environments. that said, you can still try to explain that exchange should not be exposed to the internet. you still need a relay (such as freebsd/postfix).
Re: OT bad news
--On Monday, October 05, 2009 11:50 PM +0200 mouss mo...@ml.netoyen.net wrote: Thomas Mullins a écrit : We have been running Spamassassin for maybe eight years now. But, my coworkers do not like OpenSource. So they have finally complained enough that my boss is going to replace our reliable FreeBSD/Spamassassin boxes. They are planning on purchasing something that runs ON Exchange. What a bummer. and the problem is? if they want exchange, give them exchange. don't fight (directly), watch instead. take pleasure of the situation, get fun as you can. I personally took fun all day long in windows-only (and believe it or not, in linux-only) environments. that said, you can still try to explain that exchange should not be exposed to the internet. you still need a relay (such as freebsd/postfix). And once exchange falls over, show them Zimbra. ;) Which uses postfix/SA/amavis, etc, and looks a lot like exchange... only better. ;) --Quanah -- Quanah Gibson-Mount Principal Software Engineer Zimbra, Inc Zimbra :: the leader in open source messaging and collaboration
Re: OT bad news
Hi, On Mon, 05.10.2009 at 14:11:46 -0700, John Hardin jhar...@impsec.org wrote: On Mon, 5 Oct 2009, Thomas Mullins wrote: I will pull out our BSD box, and I will let them connect the Exchange box straight to the Net. Second bet: how long it takes after doing that before the box is 0wned. I wouldn't hold my breath for it if these guys are worth their salt, but I can only underline the importance of Ted's advice to polish your resume, and start looking, because not only will they get all the credit, but _you_'ll get all the blame, if anything goes wrong. Kind regards, --Toni++
RE: OT bad news
and the problem is? if they want exchange, give them exchange. don't fight (directly), watch instead. take pleasure of the situation, get fun as you can. I personally took fun all day long in windows-only (and believe it or not, in linux-only) environments. that said, you can still try to explain that exchange should not be exposed to the internet. you still need a relay (such as freebsd/postfix). Many of our clients run Exchange but solely use Postfix/SA/ClamAV on the wall. There is no direct access to SMTP on the Exchange box for incoming. We use Postfix w/LDAP with SSL for SMTP clients (such as iphones, etc). In most cases we also use IMAP proxy to Exchange (when we can). Our biggest problems, as mentioned, is the admin side of it. If it's a Windows mentality shop, no *nix, if it's a *nix shop, no Windows. I would still argue the case that all incoming email still be passed through a relay and filtered. Let them have as much Windows stuff as they want. Just plead the case to supplement. Start by allowing all of their email to flow unfiltered, let them lose emails because of the overly paranoid Exchange settings, then, after they tweak the settings, let them get swamped by the under tagging. Make sure to remind them to keep AV updated on their Exchange, then just offer to put the relay back into place.
Re: OT bad news
Gary Smith wrote: Let them have as much Windows stuff as they want. Just plead the case to supplement. I'll have to repeat, for the original poster this isn't a technology vs technology argument. If it was, his coworkers would be listing specific things Exchange does that FreeBSD/SA does not do. This is a political battle. He is essentially in the position of a mechanic that someone brings their car to for repair, then sits there telling the mechanic what tools he should be using to repair their car. If the car gets repaired the owner claims that they knew how to repair the car better than the mechanic and the mechanic was an idiot. If the car repair fails the owner claims the mechanic is incompetent and an idiot. Either way, once your boss starts micromanaging, your going to be screwed whether you do a good job or not. He's tried rescuing the situation for 8 years, now your giving advice to help him rescue the situation more. If he helps them by keeping the BSD server in reserve, and they fall flat on their face and he rescues them, then it just is teaching them what to fix on their Exchange setup. They will try it again - perhaps falling flat again - and this will continue over and over with them putting more powerful hardware and more expensive add-on software on their exchange box until eventually they will figure it out, make him get rid of the BSD box - then they won't fall flat anymore. Then they will claim how much better Exchange works, completely ignoring the fact that he helped them troubleshoot their exchange setup. There is absolutely no fix for these types other than to let them fail and not help them back up - just let them be fired for incompetence. Trust me - even if that happened to these coworkers they will just go to the next employer that's a Windows only shop and will never once believe that the Windows solution is worse. It's just like the people who believe in Apple. They will go spend $1K on an iMac and accessories and get -exactly- the same thing that I can build with FreeBSD and a whitebox clone for a quarter of the cost - but will never believe that they overpaid for what they have. Ted
Re: OT bad news
On tir 06 okt 2009 00:05:52 CEST, Quanah Gibson-Mount wrote And once exchange falls over, show them Zimbra. ;) Which uses postfix/SA/amavis, etc, and looks a lot like exchange... only better. ;) if zimbra was good i would not have choiced horde -- xpoint
