Re: [OT] By boss decided
Now it would be interesting to know, which scope and size your project has. 2009/2/19 Borut Bolčina borut.bolc...@gmail.com Today the official winner was announced. The corporate mind decided we will use PHP Zend. The deciding factor was http://www.zend.com/en/products/platform/customers Nonetheless, I hope I will post a better news in a few of months which will go directly into success stories. -Borut 2009/2/18 Borut Bolčina borut.bolc...@gmail.com
Re: [OT] By boss decided
With no offense, doesn't that show a lack of marketing actions on the Tapestry website ? A marketing part in the website, aimed at the managers (no technical details, just facts : speed / support / customers / ...) , would probably be a great tool for Tapestry ... Stephane Borut Bolčina a écrit : Today the official winner was announced. The corporate mind decided we will use PHP Zend. The deciding factor was http://www.zend.com/en/products/platform/customers Nonetheless, I hope I will post a better news in a few of months which will go directly into success stories. -Borut 2009/2/18 Borut Bolčina borut.bolc...@gmail.com Hello, just want to share a piece of corporate mind set with you. My boss decided that none of the Java frameworks is productive in comparison to PHP, Ruby and Django and that there are no web sites written in any Java framework. Can you believe that? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo. Unfortunately I have no list of T5 success stories. I am sorry for spamming, but I had to let the steam out! -Borut
Re: [OT] By boss decided
Today the official winner was announced. The corporate mind decided we will use PHP Zend. The deciding factor was http://www.zend.com/en/products/platform/customers Nonetheless, I hope I will post a better news in a few of months which will go directly into success stories. -Borut 2009/2/18 Borut Bolčina borut.bolc...@gmail.com Hello, just want to share a piece of corporate mind set with you. My boss decided that none of the Java frameworks is productive in comparison to PHP, Ruby and Django and that there are no web sites written in any Java framework. Can you believe that? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo. Unfortunately I have no list of T5 success stories. I am sorry for spamming, but I had to let the steam out! -Borut
Re: [OT] By boss decided
Ok, I'm sure the tapestry list will still be here to help in two years when they get to phase 3 and have to start from scratch ;) -dh On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Borut Bolčina borut.bolc...@gmail.comwrote: Today the official winner was announced. The corporate mind decided we will use PHP Zend. The deciding factor was http://www.zend.com/en/products/platform/customers Nonetheless, I hope I will post a better news in a few of months which will go directly into success stories. -Borut 2009/2/18 Borut Bolčina borut.bolc...@gmail.com Hello, just want to share a piece of corporate mind set with you. My boss decided that none of the Java frameworks is productive in comparison to PHP, Ruby and Django and that there are no web sites written in any Java framework. Can you believe that? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo. Unfortunately I have no list of T5 success stories. I am sorry for spamming, but I had to let the steam out! -Borut
Re: [OT] By boss decided
Borut Bolčina wrote: Hello, Hello, [...] Can you believe that? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo. Unfortunately I have no list of T5 success stories. The French weather site is done with T5.0.10 or so. The project leader posted a mail about that, one of the digits is that there is something like 800,000 visitors in a day. The site: http://france.meteofrance.com/ Archived mail : http://markmail.org/message/jywreucbum4b3dba -- Francois Armand Etudes Développements J2EE Groupe Linagora - http://www.linagora.com Tél.: +33 (0)1 58 18 68 28 --- http://fanf42.blogspot.com InterLDAP - http://interldap.org FederID - http://www.federid.org/ Open Source identities management and federation - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: [OT] By boss decided
Hi Borut My boss decided that none of the Java frameworks is productive What? no web sites written in any Java framework What? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo No don't do that, tell your boss CGI is the way to go because most of the web is written in Perl, also tell him who cares about maintenance it is way overrated anyway. I don't know how up to date this is, bet here is one list: http://wiki.apache.org/tapestry/SuccessStories cheers, Peter - Original Message - From: Borut Bolčina borut.bolc...@gmail.com To: List Tapestry User users@tapestry.apache.org Sent: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009 08:03:52 GMT +02:00 Athens, Beirut, Bucharest, Istanbul Subject: [OT] By boss decided Hello, just want to share a piece of corporate mind set with you. My boss decided that none of the Java frameworks is productive in comparison to PHP, Ruby and Django and that there are no web sites written in any Java framework. Can you believe that? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo. Unfortunately I have no list of T5 success stories. I am sorry for spamming, but I had to let the steam out! -Borut - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: [OT] By boss decided
2009/2/18 Otho taa...@googlemail.com: Yup, no websites in java. Googlemail doesn't count. And german Telekom and Postbank are totally niche companies. :) Brazil's largest bank, Banco do Brasil, has it website written in Java, including its home banking. I don't know the exact figures, but it has tens of millions of clients. Brazil's healthcare system is also written in Java. -- Thiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: [OT] By boss decided
2009/2/18 Otho taa...@googlemail.com: Yup, no websites in java. Googlemail doesn't count. And german Telekom and Postbank are totally niche companies. :) I'm 99.9% sure that Gmail is written in GWT. I had a job interview at Google once. I asked if Google was written in GWT. The guy gave me a you bastard! you are right, but I can't tell you that! look and told me that he couldn't tell me that. :) -- Thiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: [OT] By boss decided
Then that would imply that at least the RPC side is still in Java, and the developer side source code for the GUI is actually Java. Have you seen that recent article called Competence: Is your boss faking it? http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1878358,00.html Not to be harsh on your boss...Maybe he thinks Java websites look like Java applets from 15 years ago. As far as productivity, well that depends on the programmer(s). Daniel On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:01 AM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo thiag...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/2/18 Otho taa...@googlemail.com: Yup, no websites in java. Googlemail doesn't count. And german Telekom and Postbank are totally niche companies. :) I'm 99.9% sure that Gmail is written in GWT. I had a job interview at Google once. I asked if Google was written in GWT. The guy gave me a you bastard! you are right, but I can't tell you that! look and told me that he couldn't tell me that. :) -- Thiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: [OT] By boss decided
I used T4+Cayenne on an internal application (so there is no public link to it). It ended up working really well for them. They had an existing application which processed loans, but it was only designed to do one-at-a-time. The nature of the business had changed and they were doing 500-1000 loan bulk purchases and it was taking people up to 3 full days working around the clock to do the purchases. One of the things the new T4+Cayenne application did was automate the purchasing of those loans. Cut it down to about 90 seconds. Development speed with T4 was pretty decent, but I suspect with T5's class reloading, it would be even better. The biggest hurdle I had integrating T4 with Cayenne was that I had to prevent T4 from serializing my Cayenne database objects to the HTML. /dev/mrg On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:03 AM, Borut Bolčina borut.bolc...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, just want to share a piece of corporate mind set with you. My boss decided that none of the Java frameworks is productive in comparison to PHP, Ruby and Django and that there are no web sites written in any Java framework. Can you believe that? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo. Unfortunately I have no list of T5 success stories. I am sorry for spamming, but I had to let the steam out! -Borut - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: [OT] By boss decided
far as productivity, well that depends on the programmer(s). yes and no, the right tools go a long way too. - Original Message - From: Daniel Jue teamp...@gmail.com To: Tapestry users users@tapestry.apache.org Sent: Wednesday, 18 February, 2009 17:12:32 GMT +02:00 Athens, Beirut, Bucharest, Istanbul Subject: Re: [OT] By boss decided Then that would imply that at least the RPC side is still in Java, and the developer side source code for the GUI is actually Java. Have you seen that recent article called Competence: Is your boss faking it? http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1878358,00.html Not to be harsh on your boss...Maybe he thinks Java websites look like Java applets from 15 years ago. As far as productivity, well that depends on the programmer(s). Daniel On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 7:01 AM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo thiag...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/2/18 Otho taa...@googlemail.com: Yup, no websites in java. Googlemail doesn't count. And german Telekom and Postbank are totally niche companies. :) I'm 99.9% sure that Gmail is written in GWT. I had a job interview at Google once. I asked if Google was written in GWT. The guy gave me a you bastard! you are right, but I can't tell you that! look and told me that he couldn't tell me that. :) -- Thiago - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: [OT] By boss decided
2009/2/18 Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo thiag...@gmail.com: 2009/2/18 Otho taa...@googlemail.com: Yup, no websites in java. Googlemail doesn't count. And german Telekom and Postbank are totally niche companies. :) I'm 99.9% sure that Gmail is written in GWT. I had a job interview at Google once. I asked if Google was written in GWT. The guy gave me a you bastard! you are right, but I can't tell you that! look and told me that he couldn't tell me that. :) Well, using GWT means you write Java which gets translated into JavaScript... :-) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: [OT] By boss decided
How about LinkedIn. Otho wrote: Yup, no websites in java. Googlemail doesn't count. And german Telekom and Postbank are totally niche companies. :) 2009/2/18 Daniel Honig daniel.ho...@gmail.com Ok...very late for meHorrible post! But I do have some real points... let me bullet point - dynamic language frameworks offer great but often overexaggerated productivity ( dependent on lots of factors!) - PHP does not mean you can hire less than talented folks and expect a huge cost/productivity savings (Cake PHP has a learning curve too!) - Open source ecosystem in Java blows away any other environment - Django and Rails are great but cost of retraining is high - You can't argue with folks who are beat up by the mistakes of java past and refuse to look at the light at the end of the Java tunnel(groovy, grails, scala) - A skilled tap or wo team can likely meet or exceed the real cost/effort level of a django/grails/php/rails team and leave a better system in place - Communicating with those who are lost in the hype of dynamic language frameworks is difficult. too late...too tiredbut hope the bullet points make up for my previous post. i think they are all points worth discussion. 2009/2/18 Daniel Honig daniel.ho...@gmail.com Just tell him to go check out grails before he goes off and tries to re-invent the infrastructure in cake php. That being said once T5 is part of my migration path once I reach the limits of scalability from all the MOP overhead from dynamic language frameworks. In a perfect world, I'd write my domain in GORM and expose it to tapestry via some lightweight service layer But if your boss really wants to go and re-invent everything in Django or PHP it might just be a lost cause. You might want to point out that often the productivity gain is a a bit of a shell gameIn any of these languages you still need to hire good or great developers to get productivity. In dynamic frameworks you can't keep a stable codebase unless you write good to great integration tests to verify your execution paths are stable and not doing something crazy from release to release.IMHO, the productiviy gains from dynamic frameworks are a bit overexaggerated..All of these frameworks have a learning curve.Unless your boss wants a project delivered by a bunch of PHP script kids?.It's a shell game Despite my love of grails, after working with grails for a year and a previous life that included lots of WO and T4 experience, I think there is no reason that a talented agile Tap X team could not keep up with the true productivity of any other framework. Full stop ;) The trouble is how do you bring communicate this effectively? On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:03 AM, Borut Bolčina borut.bolc...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, just want to share a piece of corporate mind set with you. My boss decided that none of the Java frameworks is productive in comparison to PHP, Ruby and Django and that there are no web sites written in any Java framework. Can you believe that? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo. Unfortunately I have no list of T5 success stories. I am sorry for spamming, but I had to let the steam out! -Borut - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: [OT] By boss decided
For general Java: How about LinkedIn? Anything with OpenSocial/Shindig ( Myspace, Hi5, Orkut, iGoogle, maybe even Yahoo Social ). For Tapestry: I would like to say my sites but they are only timid successes ( tapestry is not the issue, just the business :) protrade.com apps.facebook.com/bracket apps.facebook.com/citizensports apps.facebook.com/redsoxnation ... .. . Otho wrote: Yup, no websites in java. Googlemail doesn't count. And german Telekom and Postbank are totally niche companies. :) 2009/2/18 Daniel Honig daniel.ho...@gmail.com Ok...very late for meHorrible post! But I do have some real points... let me bullet point - dynamic language frameworks offer great but often overexaggerated productivity ( dependent on lots of factors!) - PHP does not mean you can hire less than talented folks and expect a huge cost/productivity savings (Cake PHP has a learning curve too!) - Open source ecosystem in Java blows away any other environment - Django and Rails are great but cost of retraining is high - You can't argue with folks who are beat up by the mistakes of java past and refuse to look at the light at the end of the Java tunnel(groovy, grails, scala) - A skilled tap or wo team can likely meet or exceed the real cost/effort level of a django/grails/php/rails team and leave a better system in place - Communicating with those who are lost in the hype of dynamic language frameworks is difficult. too late...too tiredbut hope the bullet points make up for my previous post. i think they are all points worth discussion. 2009/2/18 Daniel Honig daniel.ho...@gmail.com Just tell him to go check out grails before he goes off and tries to re-invent the infrastructure in cake php. That being said once T5 is part of my migration path once I reach the limits of scalability from all the MOP overhead from dynamic language frameworks. In a perfect world, I'd write my domain in GORM and expose it to tapestry via some lightweight service layer But if your boss really wants to go and re-invent everything in Django or PHP it might just be a lost cause. You might want to point out that often the productivity gain is a a bit of a shell gameIn any of these languages you still need to hire good or great developers to get productivity. In dynamic frameworks you can't keep a stable codebase unless you write good to great integration tests to verify your execution paths are stable and not doing something crazy from release to release.IMHO, the productiviy gains from dynamic frameworks are a bit overexaggerated..All of these frameworks have a learning curve.Unless your boss wants a project delivered by a bunch of PHP script kids?.It's a shell game Despite my love of grails, after working with grails for a year and a previous life that included lots of WO and T4 experience, I think there is no reason that a talented agile Tap X team could not keep up with the true productivity of any other framework. Full stop ;) The trouble is how do you bring communicate this effectively? On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:03 AM, Borut Bolčina borut.bolc...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, just want to share a piece of corporate mind set with you. My boss decided that none of the Java frameworks is productive in comparison to PHP, Ruby and Django and that there are no web sites written in any Java framework. Can you believe that? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo. Unfortunately I have no list of T5 success stories. I am sorry for spamming, but I had to let the steam out! -Borut - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
RE: [OT] By boss decided
Hi, http://www.workingmother.comwritten in T3:) 350k/month PAGE VIEWS(1million during top 100) --James -Original Message- From: Fernando Padilla [mailto:f...@alum.mit.edu] Sent: February-18-09 1:19 PM To: Tapestry users Subject: Re: [OT] By boss decided For general Java: How about LinkedIn? Anything with OpenSocial/Shindig ( Myspace, Hi5, Orkut, iGoogle, maybe even Yahoo Social ). For Tapestry: I would like to say my sites but they are only timid successes ( tapestry is not the issue, just the business :) protrade.com apps.facebook.com/bracket apps.facebook.com/citizensports apps.facebook.com/redsoxnation ... .. . Otho wrote: Yup, no websites in java. Googlemail doesn't count. And german Telekom and Postbank are totally niche companies. :) 2009/2/18 Daniel Honig daniel.ho...@gmail.com Ok...very late for meHorrible post! But I do have some real points... let me bullet point - dynamic language frameworks offer great but often overexaggerated productivity ( dependent on lots of factors!) - PHP does not mean you can hire less than talented folks and expect a huge cost/productivity savings (Cake PHP has a learning curve too!) - Open source ecosystem in Java blows away any other environment - Django and Rails are great but cost of retraining is high - You can't argue with folks who are beat up by the mistakes of java past and refuse to look at the light at the end of the Java tunnel(groovy, grails, scala) - A skilled tap or wo team can likely meet or exceed the real cost/effort level of a django/grails/php/rails team and leave a better system in place - Communicating with those who are lost in the hype of dynamic language frameworks is difficult. too late...too tiredbut hope the bullet points make up for my previous post. i think they are all points worth discussion. 2009/2/18 Daniel Honig daniel.ho...@gmail.com Just tell him to go check out grails before he goes off and tries to re-invent the infrastructure in cake php. That being said once T5 is part of my migration path once I reach the limits of scalability from all the MOP overhead from dynamic language frameworks. In a perfect world, I'd write my domain in GORM and expose it to tapestry via some lightweight service layer But if your boss really wants to go and re-invent everything in Django or PHP it might just be a lost cause. You might want to point out that often the productivity gain is a a bit of a shell gameIn any of these languages you still need to hire good or great developers to get productivity. In dynamic frameworks you can't keep a stable codebase unless you write good to great integration tests to verify your execution paths are stable and not doing something crazy from release to release.IMHO, the productiviy gains from dynamic frameworks are a bit overexaggerated..All of these frameworks have a learning curve.Unless your boss wants a project delivered by a bunch of PHP script kids?.It's a shell game Despite my love of grails, after working with grails for a year and a previous life that included lots of WO and T4 experience, I think there is no reason that a talented agile Tap X team could not keep up with the true productivity of any other framework. Full stop ;) The trouble is how do you bring communicate this effectively? On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:03 AM, Borut Bolčina borut.bolc...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, just want to share a piece of corporate mind set with you. My boss decided that none of the Java frameworks is productive in comparison to PHP, Ruby and Django and that there are no web sites written in any Java framework. Can you believe that? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo. Unfortunately I have no list of T5 success stories. I am sorry for spamming, but I had to let the steam out! -Borut - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: [OT] By boss decided
Well, take the big players like amazon or ebay, most of their system is written in JAVA. The scripting stuff has its place (e.g. quick feedback, cheap availability on web-hosters), but for bigger things most of the time I would refer to static typed languages. Analyzing and refactoring (especially bad encapsulated + modularized codebases, which unfortunately you find often) with dynamic typing and without compiler-help can be a real pain. If the team isn't experienced in good testing habits (unit + integration tests), scripting languages would even be a shootout for me. Anyway, nowadays it is more about integrating and encapsulating technologies (and the HTTP protocol has done a big good job here :). Discussions that a system must completey be implemented in JAVA, PHP only doesn't face reality at all. Reading things like your bosses 'none' and reducing all problems on the technology is always a great amusement again... Maybe you mention on one of your power point slides: 'a fool with a tool is still a fool' ;) I cannot think of bigger T5-apps, but I am sure this will change in future (e.g. Wicket and Tapestry really offer a complete different encapsulated way to build web-applications). Good luck in convincing your boss. Borut Bolčina schrieb: Hello, just want to share a piece of corporate mind set with you. My boss decided that none of the Java frameworks is productive in comparison to PHP, Ruby and Django and that there are no web sites written in any Java framework. Can you believe that? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo. Unfortunately I have no list of T5 success stories. I am sorry for spamming, but I had to let the steam out! -Borut -- manuel aldana ald...@gmx.de software-engineering blog: http://www.aldana-online.de - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
[OT] By boss decided
Hello, just want to share a piece of corporate mind set with you. My boss decided that none of the Java frameworks is productive in comparison to PHP, Ruby and Django and that there are no web sites written in any Java framework. Can you believe that? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo. Unfortunately I have no list of T5 success stories. I am sorry for spamming, but I had to let the steam out! -Borut
Re: [OT] By boss decided
This is funny !!! :-) The little guy standing up , defending Java from the corporate type who wants PHP :-) Wow :-) On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:03 AM, Borut Bolčina borut.bolc...@gmail.comwrote: Hello, just want to share a piece of corporate mind set with you. My boss decided that none of the Java frameworks is productive in comparison to PHP, Ruby and Django and that there are no web sites written in any Java framework. Can you believe that? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo. Unfortunately I have no list of T5 success stories. I am sorry for spamming, but I had to let the steam out! -Borut
Re: [OT] By boss decided
Just tell him to go check out grails before he goes off and tries to re-invent the infrastructure in cake php. That being said once T5 is part of my migration path once I reach the limits of scalability from all the MOP overhead from dynamic language frameworks. In a perfect world, I'd write my domain in GORM and expose it to tapestry via some lightweight service layer But if your boss really wants to go and re-invent everything in Django or PHP it might just be a lost cause. You might want to point out that often the productivity gain is a a bit of a shell gameIn any of these languages you still need to hire good or great developers to get productivity. In dynamic frameworks you can't keep a stable codebase unless you write good to great integration tests to verify your execution paths are stable and not doing something crazy from release to release.IMHO, the productiviy gains from dynamic frameworks are a bit overexaggerated..All of these frameworks have a learning curve.Unless your boss wants a project delivered by a bunch of PHP script kids?.It's a shell game Despite my love of grails, after working with grails for a year and a previous life that included lots of WO and T4 experience, I think there is no reason that a talented agile Tap X team could not keep up with the true productivity of any other framework. Full stop ;) The trouble is how do you bring communicate this effectively? On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:03 AM, Borut Bolčina borut.bolc...@gmail.comwrote: Hello, just want to share a piece of corporate mind set with you. My boss decided that none of the Java frameworks is productive in comparison to PHP, Ruby and Django and that there are no web sites written in any Java framework. Can you believe that? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo. Unfortunately I have no list of T5 success stories. I am sorry for spamming, but I had to let the steam out! -Borut
Re: [OT] By boss decided
Ok...very late for meHorrible post! But I do have some real points... let me bullet point - dynamic language frameworks offer great but often overexaggerated productivity ( dependent on lots of factors!) - PHP does not mean you can hire less than talented folks and expect a huge cost/productivity savings (Cake PHP has a learning curve too!) - Open source ecosystem in Java blows away any other environment - Django and Rails are great but cost of retraining is high - You can't argue with folks who are beat up by the mistakes of java past and refuse to look at the light at the end of the Java tunnel(groovy, grails, scala) - A skilled tap or wo team can likely meet or exceed the real cost/effort level of a django/grails/php/rails team and leave a better system in place - Communicating with those who are lost in the hype of dynamic language frameworks is difficult. too late...too tiredbut hope the bullet points make up for my previous post. i think they are all points worth discussion. 2009/2/18 Daniel Honig daniel.ho...@gmail.com Just tell him to go check out grails before he goes off and tries to re-invent the infrastructure in cake php. That being said once T5 is part of my migration path once I reach the limits of scalability from all the MOP overhead from dynamic language frameworks. In a perfect world, I'd write my domain in GORM and expose it to tapestry via some lightweight service layer But if your boss really wants to go and re-invent everything in Django or PHP it might just be a lost cause. You might want to point out that often the productivity gain is a a bit of a shell gameIn any of these languages you still need to hire good or great developers to get productivity. In dynamic frameworks you can't keep a stable codebase unless you write good to great integration tests to verify your execution paths are stable and not doing something crazy from release to release.IMHO, the productiviy gains from dynamic frameworks are a bit overexaggerated..All of these frameworks have a learning curve.Unless your boss wants a project delivered by a bunch of PHP script kids?.It's a shell game Despite my love of grails, after working with grails for a year and a previous life that included lots of WO and T4 experience, I think there is no reason that a talented agile Tap X team could not keep up with the true productivity of any other framework. Full stop ;) The trouble is how do you bring communicate this effectively? On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:03 AM, Borut Bolčina borut.bolc...@gmail.comwrote: Hello, just want to share a piece of corporate mind set with you. My boss decided that none of the Java frameworks is productive in comparison to PHP, Ruby and Django and that there are no web sites written in any Java framework. Can you believe that? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo. Unfortunately I have no list of T5 success stories. I am sorry for spamming, but I had to let the steam out! -Borut
Re: [OT] By boss decided
Yup, no websites in java. Googlemail doesn't count. And german Telekom and Postbank are totally niche companies. :) 2009/2/18 Daniel Honig daniel.ho...@gmail.com Ok...very late for meHorrible post! But I do have some real points... let me bullet point - dynamic language frameworks offer great but often overexaggerated productivity ( dependent on lots of factors!) - PHP does not mean you can hire less than talented folks and expect a huge cost/productivity savings (Cake PHP has a learning curve too!) - Open source ecosystem in Java blows away any other environment - Django and Rails are great but cost of retraining is high - You can't argue with folks who are beat up by the mistakes of java past and refuse to look at the light at the end of the Java tunnel(groovy, grails, scala) - A skilled tap or wo team can likely meet or exceed the real cost/effort level of a django/grails/php/rails team and leave a better system in place - Communicating with those who are lost in the hype of dynamic language frameworks is difficult. too late...too tiredbut hope the bullet points make up for my previous post. i think they are all points worth discussion. 2009/2/18 Daniel Honig daniel.ho...@gmail.com Just tell him to go check out grails before he goes off and tries to re-invent the infrastructure in cake php. That being said once T5 is part of my migration path once I reach the limits of scalability from all the MOP overhead from dynamic language frameworks. In a perfect world, I'd write my domain in GORM and expose it to tapestry via some lightweight service layer But if your boss really wants to go and re-invent everything in Django or PHP it might just be a lost cause. You might want to point out that often the productivity gain is a a bit of a shell gameIn any of these languages you still need to hire good or great developers to get productivity. In dynamic frameworks you can't keep a stable codebase unless you write good to great integration tests to verify your execution paths are stable and not doing something crazy from release to release.IMHO, the productiviy gains from dynamic frameworks are a bit overexaggerated..All of these frameworks have a learning curve.Unless your boss wants a project delivered by a bunch of PHP script kids?.It's a shell game Despite my love of grails, after working with grails for a year and a previous life that included lots of WO and T4 experience, I think there is no reason that a talented agile Tap X team could not keep up with the true productivity of any other framework. Full stop ;) The trouble is how do you bring communicate this effectively? On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:03 AM, Borut Bolčina borut.bolc...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, just want to share a piece of corporate mind set with you. My boss decided that none of the Java frameworks is productive in comparison to PHP, Ruby and Django and that there are no web sites written in any Java framework. Can you believe that? I would like to prove him wrong with Tapestry Cayenne combo. Unfortunately I have no list of T5 success stories. I am sorry for spamming, but I had to let the steam out! -Borut
