[VIHUELA] Re: Early guitar image
Dear Jocelyn,
I've seen this 1847 picture before and, of course, it is not a
representation made during the time the 5 course ('baroque') guitar was
actually played. It's in the faux style beloved of mid-19th century
artosts (and their public) depicting old scenes in what was thought to
be a historical context with dress and suitable props.
The musical context brings to mind the Prince Consort's programmes of
'ancient music' given in the mid century including performamces of anon
pieces probably composed by Fetis! Interestingly Sor is credited with
playing the lute in one of these. Coste's (arrangement) of 'La
Romenesca' comes from the same source.
Accordingly I wouldn't think such a picture is a good represention of a
5 course guitar.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Sun, 17/4/11, Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu wrote:
From: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu
Subject: [VIHUELA] Early guitar image
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Sunday, 17 April, 2011, 18:01
Dear List,
Does this look like a 5-course baroque guitar to you? I'm wondering
whether to use this as an illustration of an early guitar and perhaps
be even more specific (5-course?), but I wanted to see what list
members think.
I need to use a public domain image.
Here's the link:
[1]http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-photo-7536315-love.php
Many thanks,
Jocelyn
To get on or off this list see list information at
[2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-photo-7536315-love.php
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Many thanks for this Monica, I'm very grateful for your scholarly translations of these (on which I hoped I had based my own paraphrase) and, of course, other contemporary sources on strumming techniques. Might I just focus on the particular repicco Chris mentioned and which was the subject of my initial response. Your translation of the French for this particular strum is 'You will see the example of a batterie placed in a caprice de chacone [p.72] where the note with the longer stem indicates that the thumb should be used for both up and down strokes; and you will observe that when you see four notes tied together, you ought to use the second finger descending, and then after with the first finger you will do the same upwards in a very quick beat; and you will continue always with the fingers and the thumb following the example which you will see there'. The bit I'm focusing on is that highlighted in italics above on how to strum the 'four notes tied together' This I think is also my take on it paraphrased as: 'Note that the four tied beats strike down the first note with the middle finger then with the index and then the same as upstroke'. What Corbetta (and most contemporary writers) fail to mention is the involvement of the forearm and wrist. Indeed many years ago when I first encountered this passage, I attempted to play the instructions with a still/stiff arm and wrist (anchored down on the belly with the little finger) simply by flicking the fingers one after the other and then in reverse - needless to say the results were very unsatisfactory. When the penny dropped - that the forearm and wrist were a vital part of the mechanisim the whole strum suddenly made sense - I wonder if others shared this experience? I find that by careful seperation of the index and middle (now touching each other as almost the one digit; now well seperated) one can produce a variety of effects to suit the music whilst still adhering to the instruction. The use of the added thumb allows, of course, an extra degree of (especially more forceful) expression where required. Indeed, Marchetti's instructions for this particular strum seem very similar except he advocates the use of the thumb in place of the index which, I suggest, gives a more rubust and aggressive sound to the strum. I also find this is very suitable for two consecutive up-beat semiquaver strums often found as the upbeat to an Allemande which, if articulated by seperate up strums of the two digits is laboured and unrythmical but if simply the two digits acting in one up strum (ie the second part alone of Corbetta's four notes tied together strum) any difficulty is overcome. As said in my original email, I think there is still a long way to go in playing strums in the rather less aggresive and more refined way than often heard on modern recordings. As also said, I recognise that mastering these strums in a style consistent with what the early writers wrote is not easy but I do think we need to very much address this issue before we (myself included!) can say with any confidence that we are playing as the Old Ones themselves expected and expected to hear. Finally, in none of this do I see any place for the third finger: not only is it not mentioned but I suggest it puts the hand in a position and requires a longer forearm/wrist movement if three digits are employed than with two; the reicco seems to be a generally fast undulation producing a continuos sound rather than a heavily accented down and upbeat. In short, I think there's still a long way to go in developing this peculiar technique and differentiating it from modern flamenco play. Santiago Da Murcia seems to have, unwittingly, played a large part in encouraging this unhistorical approach by his wonderful Spanish dances - but I wonder what he might have made of some modern performances regards Martyn --- On Sun, 17/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 17 April, 2011, 17:07 Well - before we start to discuss this... it might be helpful to have English translations of what Corbetta says in the preface - and to have to hand the music. The French preface is slightly different for the Italian French Preface You will see the example of a batterie placed in a caprice de chacone [p.72] where the note with the longer stem indicates that the thumb should be used for both up and down strokes; and you will observe that when you see four notes tied together, you ought to use the second finger
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Dear Stuart, Thanks for this. I do hope you won't really give up! Like you I'm sometimes reluctant to be quite so strict about what strum I employ but I think, also like you, I'm aware of the historical instructions. I do think these strums were part of general play as, indeed, required by Corbetta (as well as de Visee et al - note his careful use of strum requiring a thumb and strum without - how often is this adhered to?). And I've given an example of the double upstroke to numerous Allemandes which I suggest are better played this way (ie double upstroke executed by the middle and first finger being well seperated and strumming upwards). I think the Roncalli 'strum' is a red herring!: in fact for this chord Roncalli employs the well recognised guitar sign also used in contemporary tiorba tablatures for an extended arpeggio. But Chris's use of a flamenco strum certainly gave rise to this interesting exchange. regards Martyn --- On Sun, 17/4/11, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 17 April, 2011, 18:50 On 17/04/2011 17:07, Monica Hall wrote: Well - before we start to discuss this... it might be helpful to have English translations of what Corbetta says in the preface - and to have to hand the music. The French preface is slightly different for the Italian French Preface You will see the example of a batterie placed in a caprice de chacone [p.72] where the note with the longer stem indicates that the thumb should be used for both up and down strokes; and you will observe that when you see four notes tied together, you ought to use the second finger descending, and then after with the first finger you will do the same upwards in a very quick beat; and you will continue always with the fingers and the thumb following the example which you will see there. In another chaconne [p.75] there is another batterie which I have printed previously (desia). And because it has the gift of pleasing, I wanted to place it here, where you will see that there are six strokes in the form of quavers. You will play four [quavers] on the first, second and third strings carrying the hand downwards; after you will make the other two strokes on the two fourth and fifth strings carrying the hand upwards without touching the others; after changing the fingering [of the left hand] you do the same with the other six. Changing the fingers for the next four which follow, you will strike the first chord a little strongly and the other three very sweetly. You will play the others in the same way changing the fingering as you commence the first of each six. This is why you will find an f that indicates that you strike rather strongly on the first stroke and in this way the batterie will be more delicate. Italian Preface You will see an example of a repicco placed in a ciaccona [on p.72], where the longer tail to the note signifies the thumb; having already begun with the fingers [i.e. played the chord once with all four fingers], then do the same, upwards with the thumb, making the same upwards. Observe that the four tied notes signify that one must first make the note with second finger and then with the first close to it, and thus again as upstrokes at a quicker tempo, and continue with the fingers and thumb. In another next ciaccona [on p.75] you will see another repicco already placed in the press where to confusion I have place the same more perfect thing. Where you see six quaver strokes, play four of them from the third course downwards, and moving the hand make the next two strokes on the other two courses, the first and second i.e. 5th 4th], without touching the others [1st , 2nd 3rd]. After changing the fingers on the frets, play in the same way for the other six quavers, and changing the fingers at the next four, strike the first quaver loudly, and the other three softly. Do the same on changing the fingers at the other [groups of four] until the first six begin again. Where you find an f this means play the first of the four beats loudly, and thus you will achieve a beautiful repicco. Marchetti's exlanation of the repicco is much simpler... The repicco is made giving four strokes, that is two down and two up. The first stroke is played downwards with the middle finger and the second down with the thumb; the third stroke is played upwards
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Dear Monica, I'm replying at the beginning: I think this is the more logical way to do it - this way the most recent communication is always at the top ( rather like letters files). And I'm sorry you found my earlier mailing was such a mess! - I'll try to do better. I think I've already responded to much of yours below in my previous email earlier today. But let me re-emphasise how much I agree with you when you write: ' but it does seem to me that the idea that because some of these dances were originally rather risque, all the pieces found in books like that of Roncalli and even Foscarini are meant to be played in such an agressive and jazzed up manner. Most of the sources emphasise the idea that you should play with delicacy and sweetness - it is important to read what they say!' regards Martyn PS And don't get me started on modern amplification... --- On Sun, 17/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 17 April, 2011, 20:14 And Monica has translated Foscarini's instructions on playing the Trillo, Picco and Repicco in her essay 'Giovanni Paulo Foscarini: Plagiarist or Pioneer? (at the very end) [1]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ I have also translated Montesardo's explanation of the trillo in the section The baroque guitar made simple!. And looking at all that, many people (like me) probably decide to give up! Maybe the really showy stuff is for some alfabeto and/or for some chaconnes/passaccales rather than general application in mixed tablatures? I am inclined to agree with you. I don't want to offend anyone (really) but it does seem to me that the idea that because some of these dances were originally rather risque, all the pieces found in books like that of Roncalli and even Foscarini are meant to be played in such an agressive and jazzed up manner. Most of the sources emphasise the idea that you should play with delicacy and sweetness - it is important to read what they say! Which is why I love to quote chunks of them. I was interested in Chris's first chord in the Roncall Preludio because it sounds quite different from other strums I've heard. Yes so was I but again what Roncalli has actually indicated as I understand it is that the chords like that at the beginning of the preludio should be arpeggiated - as with Bartolotti. I couldn't understand why Chris had done it like that!! There seemed to be no 3rd in the chord either. Another thing that bothers me in general is the way in which the sound in many recordings seems to be amplified. Even turning the volume down doesn't in any way soften the music - it just makes it sound indistinct and further away. The Foscarini CD e.g. sounded like heavy metal whereas in a live performance even with the odd line up it wouldn't sound like that. Surely it is possible to capture the sound of a live performance more faithfully. I could go on for ever - but most of these matters are too complex to discuss intelligently in a hurry and on a list like this. And this message when I received it was a complete mess. I have tried to tidy it up. I do think at least we should agree whether we will reply at the end or the beginning and everyone do the same things. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Allow me a few points: I don't believe my so-called trill is part of the flamenco technique. Perhaps that's why I accepted it so readily! But I'm not aware of any flamenco performances using this approach. For a rolling continuation of strums Flamenco seems to use all four fingers, sometimes followed by an upstroke of the index to give 5 beats in one. That said, if the ring finger is never used in a strum, then this trill is indeed an anachronism. It uses i and a. I'll add that the wrist is indeed still, and you can anchor your hand with your thumb. Historically accurate or not, it is an interesting right-hand technique, and it can be used elsewhere I'm sure. So now I wonder how to achieve an indefinitely long rolling of strums. I'll try to work out these translations of instructions to see what can happen... right-hand control is always good. Indeed, the right hand is probably the more important hand with the guitar. You can play hundreds of notes with your left hand, but if the right hand is dead, you'll play hundreds of dead notes. On the other hand (no pun intended), if you can only play a single note with your left hand but your right hand is capable of exquisite variations, you will exquisitely express that note every time. Finally, with luck I'll soon attend another course where I can inquire into the sources for this interesting little trill. cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 3:57:29 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Stuart, Thanks for this. I do hope you won't really give up! Like you I'm sometimes reluctant to be quite so strict about what strum I employ but I think, also like you, I'm aware of the historical instructions. I do think these strums were part of general play as, indeed, required by Corbetta (as well as de Visee et al - note his careful use of strum requiring a thumb and strum without - how often is this adhered to?). And I've given an example of the double upstroke to numerous Allemandes which I suggest are better played this way (ie double upstroke executed by the middle and first finger being well seperated and strumming upwards). I think the Roncalli 'strum' is a red herring!: in fact for this chord Roncalli employs the well recognised guitar sign also used in contemporary tiorba tablatures for an extended arpeggio. But Chris's use of a flamenco strum certainly gave rise to this interesting exchange. regards Martyn --- On Sun, 17/4/11, Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist [5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 17 April, 2011, 18:50 On 17/04/2011 17:07, Monica Hall wrote: Well - before we start to discuss this... it might be helpful to have English translations of what Corbetta says in the preface - and to have to hand the music. The French preface is slightly different for the Italian French Preface You will see the example of a batterie placed in a caprice de chacone [p.72] where the note with the longer stem indicates that the thumb should be used for both up and down strokes; and you will observe that when you see four notes tied together, you ought to use the second finger descending, and then after with the first finger you will do the same upwards in a very quick beat; and you will continue always with the fingers and the thumb following the example which you will see there. In another chaconne [p.75] there is another batterie which I have printed previously (desia). And because it has the gift of pleasing, I wanted to place it here, where you will see that there are six strokes in the form of quavers. You will play four [quavers] on the first, second and third strings carrying the hand downwards; after you will make the other two strokes on the two fourth and fifth strings carrying the hand upwards without touching the others; after changing the fingering [of the left hand] you do the same with the other six. Changing the fingers for the next four which follow, you will strike the first chord a little strongly and the other three very sweetly. You will play the others in the
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Dear Chris, I'm sure it's wise for us all to explore these things further and with care and reference to the sources. Regarding courses: I'm not sure if I'd accept as gospel some personal assertion of preference not backed up by hard evidence - whoever the tutor may be! It is interesting in this context that you were told this strum was a 'trillo' whereas it is clearly a repicco since it employs more than the index finger alone. best wishes Martyn --- On Mon, 18/4/11, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 18 April, 2011, 10:12 Allow me a few points: I don't believe my so-called trill is part of the flamenco technique. Perhaps that's why I accepted it so readily! But I'm not aware of any flamenco performances using this approach. For a rolling continuation of strums Flamenco seems to use all four fingers, sometimes followed by an upstroke of the index to give 5 beats in one. That said, if the ring finger is never used in a strum, then this trill is indeed an anachronism. It uses i and a. I'll add that the wrist is indeed still, and you can anchor your hand with your thumb. Historically accurate or not, it is an interesting right-hand technique, and it can be used elsewhere I'm sure. So now I wonder how to achieve an indefinitely long rolling of strums. I'll try to work out these translations of instructions to see what can happen... right-hand control is always good. Indeed, the right hand is probably the more important hand with the guitar. You can play hundreds of notes with your left hand, but if the right hand is dead, you'll play hundreds of dead notes. On the other hand (no pun intended), if you can only play a single note with your left hand but your right hand is capable of exquisite variations, you will exquisitely express that note every time. Finally, with luck I'll soon attend another course where I can inquire into the sources for this interesting little trill. cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 3:57:29 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Stuart, Thanks for this. I do hope you won't really give up! Like you I'm sometimes reluctant to be quite so strict about what strum I employ but I think, also like you, I'm aware of the historical instructions. I do think these strums were part of general play as, indeed, required by Corbetta (as well as de Visee et al - note his careful use of strum requiring a thumb and strum without - how often is this adhered to?). And I've given an example of the double upstroke to numerous Allemandes which I suggest are better played this way (ie double upstroke executed by the middle and first finger being well seperated and strumming upwards). I think the Roncalli 'strum' is a red herring!: in fact for this chord Roncalli employs the well recognised guitar sign also used in contemporary tiorba tablatures for an extended arpeggio. But Chris's use of a flamenco strum certainly gave rise to this interesting exchange. regards Martyn --- On Sun, 17/4/11, Stuart Walsh [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Martyn Hodgson [4]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Vihuelalist [5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 17 April, 2011, 18:50 On 17/04/2011 17:07, Monica Hall wrote: Well - before we start to discuss this... it might be helpful to have English translations of what Corbetta says in the preface - and to have to hand the music. The French preface is slightly different for the Italian French Preface You will see the example of a batterie placed in a caprice de chacone [p.72] where the note with the longer stem indicates that the thumb should be used for both up and down strokes; and you will observe that when you see four notes tied together, you ought to use the second finger descending, and then after with the first finger you will do the same upwards in a very quick beat; and you will
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Dear Martyn... Well, I called this thing a trill -- the term tillo never passed my lips (or fingers, I guess). I understood it as trill, sitting in a class given in another language... And my hearing has deteriorated with the years, I might add. I thought the word was trino, which I believe is trill in Spanish. In that formulation alone I see at least three opportunities for error... Does trino = trill? Did he say trino or trillo? Does trino = trillo? Did I play the thing right? You give me far too much credit! And indeed, I hope to inquire about the sources... Anyway, I had hoped to open up this line of discussion. I'm glad for it, and hope to learn as a result! Many thanks to all... cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 6:01:50 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Chris, I'm sure it's wise for us all to explore these things further and with care and reference to the sources. Regarding courses: I'm not sure if I'd accept as gospel some personal assertion of preference not backed up by hard evidence - whoever the tutor may be! It is interesting in this context that you were told this strum was a 'trillo' whereas it is clearly a repicco since it employs more than the index finger alone. best wishes Martyn --- On Mon, 18/4/11, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Stuart Walsh [5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 18 April, 2011, 10:12 Allow me a few points: I don't believe my so-called trill is part of the flamenco technique. Perhaps that's why I accepted it so readily! But I'm not aware of any flamenco performances using this approach. For a rolling continuation of strums Flamenco seems to use all four fingers, sometimes followed by an upstroke of the index to give 5 beats in one. That said, if the ring finger is never used in a strum, then this trill is indeed an anachronism. It uses i and a. I'll add that the wrist is indeed still, and you can anchor your hand with your thumb. Historically accurate or not, it is an interesting right-hand technique, and it can be used elsewhere I'm sure. So now I wonder how to achieve an indefinitely long rolling of strums. I'll try to work out these translations of instructions to see what can happen... right-hand control is always good. Indeed, the right hand is probably the more important hand with the guitar. You can play hundreds of notes with your left hand, but if the right hand is dead, you'll play hundreds of dead notes. On the other hand (no pun intended), if you can only play a single note with your left hand but your right hand is capable of exquisite variations, you will exquisitely express that note every time. Finally, with luck I'll soon attend another course where I can inquire into the sources for this interesting little trill. cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Stuart Walsh [9]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [10]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 3:57:29 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Stuart, Thanks for this. I do hope you won't really give up! Like you I'm sometimes reluctant to be quite so strict about what strum I employ but I think, also like you, I'm aware of the historical instructions. I do think these strums were part of general play as, indeed, required by Corbetta (as well as de Visee et al - note his careful use of strum requiring a thumb and strum without - how often is this adhered to?). And I've given an example of the double upstroke to numerous Allemandes which I suggest are better played this way (ie double upstroke executed by the middle and first finger being well seperated and strumming upwards). I think the Roncalli 'strum' is a red herring!: in fact for this chord Roncalli employs the well recognised guitar sign also used in contemporary tiorba tablatures for an extended arpeggio. But Chris's use of a flamenco
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Dear Martyn It wasn't specifically your message. It is just that some of us put our reply at the beginning and others at the end. Stuart puts his replies at the end so that when when replying to his I try to do the same. But others put it at the beginning.Surely we can agree on a simple matter like this. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Monica, I'm replying at the beginning: I think this is the more logical way to do it - this way the most recent communication is always at the top ( rather like letters files). And I'm sorry you found my earlier mailing was such a mess! - I'll try to do better. I think I've already responded to much of yours below in my previous email earlier today. But let me re-emphasise how much I agree with you when you write: ' but it does seem to me that the idea that because some of these dances were originally rather risque, all the pieces found in books like that of Roncalli and even Foscarini are meant to be played in such an agressive and jazzed up manner. Most of the sources emphasise the idea that you should play with delicacy and sweetness - it is important to read what they say!' regards Martyn PS And don't get me started on modern amplification... --- On Sun, 17/4/11, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 17 April, 2011, 20:14 And Monica has translated Foscarini's instructions on playing the Trillo, Picco and Repicco in her essay 'Giovanni Paulo Foscarini: Plagiarist or Pioneer? (at the very end) [4]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ I have also translated Montesardo's explanation of the trillo in the section The baroque guitar made simple!. And looking at all that, many people (like me) probably decide to give up! Maybe the really showy stuff is for some alfabeto and/or for some chaconnes/passaccales rather than general application in mixed tablatures? I am inclined to agree with you. I don't want to offend anyone (really) but it does seem to me that the idea that because some of these dances were originally rather risque, all the pieces found in books like that of Roncalli and even Foscarini are meant to be played in such an agressive and jazzed up manner. Most of the sources emphasise the idea that you should play with delicacy and sweetness - it is important to read what they say! Which is why I love to quote chunks of them. I was interested in Chris's first chord in the Roncall Preludio because it sounds quite different from other strums I've heard. Yes so was I but again what Roncalli has actually indicated as I understand it is that the chords like that at the beginning of the preludio should be arpeggiated - as with Bartolotti. I couldn't understand why Chris had done it like that!! There seemed to be no 3rd in the chord either. Another thing that bothers me in general is the way in which the sound in many recordings seems to be amplified. Even turning the volume down doesn't in any way soften the music - it just makes it sound indistinct and further away. The Foscarini CD e.g. sounded like heavy metal whereas in a live performance even with the odd line up it wouldn't sound like that. Surely it is possible to capture the sound of a live performance more faithfully. I could go on for ever - but most of these matters are too complex to discuss intelligently in a hurry and on a list like this. And this message when I received it was a complete mess. I have tried to tidy it up. I do think at least we should agree whether we will reply at the end or the beginning and everyone do the same things. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
I quoted both prefaces in full thinking this would be helpful but perhaps not especially as my translation could be improved on. What Corbetta says in the Italian preface is clearer. Observe that the four tied notes signify that one must first make the note with second finger and then with the first close to it, and thus again as upstrokes at a quicker tempo, and continue with the fingers and thumb. As far as the tied notes are concerned you do two downstrokes with 2nd finger followed by 1st finger and then 2 upstrokes with the 2nd finger and 1st finger - exactly what you are in fact saying. As far as the actual mechanics are concerned you can't strum with your little finger anchored to the belly - at least I can't and the sources don't indicate this at all - they tell you to strum over the fingerboard. But part of the problem is that they don't explain these things clearly - and rally they have to be demonstrated guitar in hand. As far as the 3rd finger is concerned this is not involved in playing repiccos although when doing a full stroke with all your finger I think it can be included because you do this with a sweeping movement. Poor old Santiago de Murcia. It is not his fault! What he actually says himself in this newly discovered mansucript is The usual method of all beginners is to place the little finger beside the bridge of the guitar, so as to steady the hand, because many are unable to strike the strings with the hand free, but only in the aforesaid manner. This [manner of playing] will not be seen used by any expert who plays this instrument with any skill, especially if the works being played are delicate with strummed chords because these must be played in the middle of the instrument. The hand should only be placed on the bridge when it is necessary to play loudly, as when accompanying another instrument. Do note that Alejandro Vera's translation is accurate. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Many thanks for this Monica, I'm very grateful for your scholarly translations of these (on which I hoped I had based my own paraphrase) and, of course, other contemporary sources on strumming techniques. Might I just focus on the particular repicco Chris mentioned and which was the subject of my initial response. Your translation of the French for this particular strum is 'You will see the example of a batterie placed in a caprice de chacone [p.72] where the note with the longer stem indicates that the thumb should be used for both up and down strokes; and you will observe that when you see four notes tied together, you ought to use the second finger descending, and then after with the first finger you will do the same upwards in a very quick beat; and you will continue always with the fingers and the thumb following the example which you will see there'. The bit I'm focusing on is that highlighted in italics above on how to strum the 'four notes tied together' This I think is also my take on it paraphrased as: 'Note that the four tied beats strike down the first note with the middle finger then with the index and then the same as upstroke'. What Corbetta (and most contemporary writers) fail to mention is the involvement of the forearm and wrist. Indeed many years ago when I first encountered this passage, I attempted to play the instructions with a still/stiff arm and wrist (anchored down on the belly with the little finger) simply by flicking the fingers one after the other and then in reverse - needless to say the results were very unsatisfactory. When the penny dropped - that the forearm and wrist were a vital part of the mechanisim the whole strum suddenly made sense - I wonder if others shared this experience? I find that by careful seperation of the index and middle (now touching each other as almost the one digit; now well seperated) one can produce a variety of effects to suit the music whilst still adhering to the instruction. The use of the added thumb allows, of course, an extra degree of (especially more forceful) expression where required. Indeed, Marchetti's instructions for this particular strum seem very similar except he advocates the use of the thumb in place of the index which, I suggest, gives a more rubust and aggressive sound to the strum. I also find this is very suitable for two consecutive up-beat semiquaver strums often found as the upbeat to an Allemande which, if articulated by seperate up strums of the two digits is laboured and unrythmical but if simply the two digits acting in one up strum
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Well trino and trillo are two different things - but I can understand how they might get muddled up. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 11:36 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Martyn... Well, I called this thing a trill -- the term tillo never passed my lips (or fingers, I guess). I understood it as trill, sitting in a class given in another language... And my hearing has deteriorated with the years, I might add. I thought the word was trino, which I believe is trill in Spanish. In that formulation alone I see at least three opportunities for error... Does trino = trill? Did he say trino or trillo? Does trino = trillo? Did I play the thing right? You give me far too much credit! And indeed, I hope to inquire about the sources... Anyway, I had hoped to open up this line of discussion. I'm glad for it, and hope to learn as a result! Many thanks to all... cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 6:01:50 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Chris, I'm sure it's wise for us all to explore these things further and with care and reference to the sources. Regarding courses: I'm not sure if I'd accept as gospel some personal assertion of preference not backed up by hard evidence - whoever the tutor may be! It is interesting in this context that you were told this strum was a 'trillo' whereas it is clearly a repicco since it employs more than the index finger alone. best wishes Martyn --- On Mon, 18/4/11, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Stuart Walsh [5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 18 April, 2011, 10:12 Allow me a few points: I don't believe my so-called trill is part of the flamenco technique. Perhaps that's why I accepted it so readily! But I'm not aware of any flamenco performances using this approach. For a rolling continuation of strums Flamenco seems to use all four fingers, sometimes followed by an upstroke of the index to give 5 beats in one. That said, if the ring finger is never used in a strum, then this trill is indeed an anachronism. It uses i and a. I'll add that the wrist is indeed still, and you can anchor your hand with your thumb. Historically accurate or not, it is an interesting right-hand technique, and it can be used elsewhere I'm sure. So now I wonder how to achieve an indefinitely long rolling of strums. I'll try to work out these translations of instructions to see what can happen... right-hand control is always good. Indeed, the right hand is probably the more important hand with the guitar. You can play hundreds of notes with your left hand, but if the right hand is dead, you'll play hundreds of dead notes. On the other hand (no pun intended), if you can only play a single note with your left hand but your right hand is capable of exquisite variations, you will exquisitely express that note every time. Finally, with luck I'll soon attend another course where I can inquire into the sources for this interesting little trill. cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Stuart Walsh [9]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [10]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 3:57:29 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Stuart, Thanks for this. I do hope you won't really give up! Like you I'm sometimes reluctant to be quite so strict about what strum I employ but I think, also like you, I'm aware of the historical instructions. I do think these strums were part of general play as, indeed, required by Corbetta (as well as de Visee et al - note his careful use of strum requiring a thumb and strum without - how often is this adhered to?). And I've given an example of the double upstroke to numerous Allemandes which I suggest are better played this way (ie double upstroke executed by the middle and first finger being well
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Dear Chris, I had thought I used Corbetta's own word 'trillo' for the particular strum with an up and down movement of the index only. And, indeed, as you'll see from the below - I did! Dunno where tillo, trino etc come from. regards Martyn --- On Mon, 18/4/11, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 18 April, 2011, 11:36 Dear Martyn... Well, I called this thing a trill -- the term tillo never passed my lips (or fingers, I guess). I understood it as trill, sitting in a class given in another language... And my hearing has deteriorated with the years, I might add. I thought the word was trino, which I believe is trill in Spanish. In that formulation alone I see at least three opportunities for error... Does trino = trill? Did he say trino or trillo? Does trino = trillo? Did I play the thing right? You give me far too much credit! And indeed, I hope to inquire about the sources... Anyway, I had hoped to open up this line of discussion. I'm glad for it, and hope to learn as a result! Many thanks to all... cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 6:01:50 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Chris, I'm sure it's wise for us all to explore these things further and with care and reference to the sources. Regarding courses: I'm not sure if I'd accept as gospel some personal assertion of preference not backed up by hard evidence - whoever the tutor may be! It is interesting in this context that you were told this strum was a 'trillo' whereas it is clearly a repicco since it employs more than the index finger alone. best wishes Martyn --- On Mon, 18/4/11, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Stuart Walsh [5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 18 April, 2011, 10:12 Allow me a few points: I don't believe my so-called trill is part of the flamenco technique. Perhaps that's why I accepted it so readily! But I'm not aware of any flamenco performances using this approach. For a rolling continuation of strums Flamenco seems to use all four fingers, sometimes followed by an upstroke of the index to give 5 beats in one. That said, if the ring finger is never used in a strum, then this trill is indeed an anachronism. It uses i and a. I'll add that the wrist is indeed still, and you can anchor your hand with your thumb. Historically accurate or not, it is an interesting right-hand technique, and it can be used elsewhere I'm sure. So now I wonder how to achieve an indefinitely long rolling of strums. I'll try to work out these translations of instructions to see what can happen... right-hand control is always good. Indeed, the right hand is probably the more important hand with the guitar. You can play hundreds of notes with your left hand, but if the right hand is dead, you'll play hundreds of dead notes. On the other hand (no pun intended), if you can only play a single note with your left hand but your right hand is capable of exquisite variations, you will exquisitely express that note every time. Finally, with luck I'll soon attend another course where I can inquire into the sources for this interesting little trill. cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson [7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Stuart Walsh [9]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [10]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 3:57:29 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Stuart, Thanks for this. I do hope you won't really give up! Like you I'm sometimes reluctant to be quite so strict about what strum I employ but I think, also like you, I'm aware of the historical instructions. I do think these strums were part of general play as, indeed, required by Corbetta (as well as de Visee et
[VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones
Dear Martyn... Without a doubt, you referred to the trillo in this discussion. I'm only saying that I never called this thing that I executed by the name, trillo. I had assumed it was a trill (perhaps out of ignorance, language difficulties, and bad hearing). But I think we're in violent agreement that it is not a trillo. __ From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 10:30:55 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Chris, I had thought I used Corbetta's own word 'trillo' for the particular strum with an up and down movement of the index only. And, indeed, as you'll see from the below - I did! Dunno where tillo, trino etc come from. regards Martyn --- On Mon, 18/4/11, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 18 April, 2011, 11:36 Dear Martyn... Well, I called this thing a trill -- the term tillo never passed my lips (or fingers, I guess). I understood it as trill, sitting in a class given in another language... And my hearing has deteriorated with the years, I might add. I thought the word was trino, which I believe is trill in Spanish. In that formulation alone I see at least three opportunities for error... Does trino = trill? Did he say trino or trillo? Does trino = trillo? Did I play the thing right? You give me far too much credit! And indeed, I hope to inquire about the sources... Anyway, I had hoped to open up this line of discussion. I'm glad for it, and hope to learn as a result! Many thanks to all... cud __ From: Martyn Hodgson [5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 6:01:50 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Chris, I'm sure it's wise for us all to explore these things further and with care and reference to the sources. Regarding courses: I'm not sure if I'd accept as gospel some personal assertion of preference not backed up by hard evidence - whoever the tutor may be! It is interesting in this context that you were told this strum was a 'trillo' whereas it is clearly a repicco since it employs more than the index finger alone. best wishes Martyn --- On Mon, 18/4/11, Chris Despopoulos [1][8]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos [2][9]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Martyn Hodgson [3][10]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk, Monica Hall [4][11]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Stuart Walsh [5][12]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [6][13]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 18 April, 2011, 10:12 Allow me a few points: I don't believe my so-called trill is part of the flamenco technique. Perhaps that's why I accepted it so readily! But I'm not aware of any flamenco performances using this approach. For a rolling continuation of strums Flamenco seems to use all four fingers, sometimes followed by an upstroke of the index to give 5 beats in one. That said, if the ring finger is never used in a strum, then this trill is indeed an anachronism. It uses i and a. I'll add that the wrist is indeed still, and you can anchor your hand with your thumb. Historically accurate or not, it is an interesting right-hand technique, and it can be used elsewhere I'm sure. So now I wonder how to achieve an indefinitely long rolling of strums. I'll try to work out these translations of instructions to see what can happen... right-hand control is always good. Indeed, the right hand is probably the more important hand with the guitar. You can play hundreds of notes with your left hand, but if the right hand is dead, you'll play hundreds of dead notes. On the other hand (no pun intended), if you can only play a single note with your left hand but your right hand is capable of exquisite variations, you will exquisitely express that
[VIHUELA] Re: list - protocol
All I can say is that I agree with this. The problem arises when several people reply to a message consecutively, some at the top and some at the bottom. The important thing is to keep the discussion in a logical sequence which everyone can follow. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Monica Hall Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] list - protocol As said, the reply at the top is usual (and historic!) practice. But it's also always a good idea to cut and paste in the relevant section one is queying/amplifying if the original is long --- On Mon, 18/4/11, Monica Hall [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 18 April, 2011, 12:16 Dear Martyn It wasn't specifically your message. It is just that some of us put our reply at the beginning and others at the end. Stuart puts his replies at the end so that when when replying to his I try to do the same. But others put it at the beginning.Surely we can agree on a simple matter like this. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones Dear Monica, I'm replying at the beginning: I think this is the more logical way to do it - this way the most recent communication is always at the top ( rather like letters files). And I'm sorry you found my earlier mailing was such a mess! - I'll try to do better. I think I've already responded to much of yours below in my previous email earlier today. But let me re-emphasise how much I agree with you when you write: ' but it does seem to me that the idea that because some of these dances were originally rather risque, all the pieces found in books like that of Roncalli and even Foscarini are meant to be played in such an agressive and jazzed up manner. Most of the sources emphasise the idea that you should play with delicacy and sweetness - it is important to read what they say!' regards Martyn PS And don't get me started on modern amplification... --- On Sun, 17/4/11, Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming techniques - was With/Without Bordones To: Stuart Walsh [7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [8]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 17 April, 2011, 20:14 And Monica has translated Foscarini's instructions on playing the Trillo, Picco and Repicco in her essay 'Giovanni Paulo Foscarini: Plagiarist or Pioneer? (at the very end) [4][9]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ I have also translated Montesardo's explanation of the trillo in the section The baroque guitar made simple!. And looking at all that, many people (like me) probably decide to give up! Maybe the really showy stuff is for some alfabeto and/or for some chaconnes/passaccales rather than general application in mixed tablatures? I am inclined to agree with you. I don't want to offend anyone (really) but it does seem to me that the idea that because some of these dances were originally rather risque, all the pieces found in books like that of Roncalli and even Foscarini are meant to be played in such an agressive and jazzed up manner. Most of the sources emphasise the idea that you should play with delicacy and sweetness - it is important to read what they say! Which is why I love to quote chunks of them. I was interested in Chris's first chord in the Roncall Preludio because it sounds quite different from other strums I've heard. Yes so was I but again what Roncalli has actually indicated as I understand it is that the chords like that at the beginning of the preludio should be arpeggiated - as with Bartolotti. I couldn't understand why Chris had done it like that!! There seemed to be no 3rd in the chord either. Another thing that bothers me in general is the way in which the sound in many recordings seems to be amplified. Even turning the volume down doesn't in any way soften the music - it just makes it sound indistinct and further away. The Foscarini CD e.g. sounded like heavy metal whereas in a live performance even with the odd line
[VIHUELA] Re: list - protocol
On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 17:42:10 +0100, Monica Hall forwarded From: [1]Martyn Hodgson As said, the reply at the top is usual (and historic!) practice. But it's also always a good idea to cut and paste in the relevant section one is queying/amplifying if the original is long This is simply wrong. Sorry, but the historic way to quote in Usenet (way before mailing list were common) was either bottom-post or interleaved. I still have my old copy of my university's version of 'Zen and the art of Internet' which teaches the art of interleaved quoting (and a lot of other netiquette ... what happened to the net, sigh!). Top-posting was brought to us by AOL (and later Microsoft) : their meassage clients had no means of qutoing the original and put the cursor above the original message text when replying. Since most of these new AOL users had no clue about haow to behave in an online community Top-posting quickly became associated with rude behavior ... Here's an old signature joke from back then: A: Because it reverses the natural order of conversations and makes it confusing as to who posted what. Q: Why is that so annoying? A: Top posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing about mailing lists and Usenet? Monica Hall again: All I can say is that I agree with this. The problem arises when several people reply to a message consecutively, some at the top and some at the bottom. The important thing is to keep the discussion in a logical sequence which everyone can follow. Yes, I totally agree here, top-posting in reply to an interleaved message is plain and simply rude. And, btw. one is supposed to _trim_ the quoted sections, blindly replying with the full message of the original post is rude as well. Why? Because it really blows up the size of my message box. And it's anoying that, when searching for a post, a lot of not so relevant mails show up, only because old quotes still linger at the deep bottom of these messages. Cheers, Ralf Mattes -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: list - protocol
Alas, the tyrannical giant Microsoft and its forced default of top-replying so dominates the universe of electronic communication that I fear there is no easy way back to a rational conversational civility. This note was typed using MS Outlook (with a tear in the eye for the memory of Eudora). Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of R. Mattes Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 2:06 PM To: Monica Hall; Martyn Hodgson Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: list - protocol On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 17:42:10 +0100, Monica Hall forwarded From: [1]Martyn Hodgson As said, the reply at the top is usual (and historic!) practice. But it's also always a good idea to cut and paste in the relevant section one is queying/amplifying if the original is long This is simply wrong. Sorry, but the historic way to quote in Usenet (way before mailing list were common) was either bottom-post or interleaved. I still have my old copy of my university's version of 'Zen and the art of Internet' which teaches the art of interleaved quoting (and a lot of other netiquette ... what happened to the net, sigh!). Top-posting was brought to us by AOL (and later Microsoft) : their meassage clients had no means of qutoing the original and put the cursor above the original message text when replying. Since most of these new AOL users had no clue about haow to behave in an online community Top-posting quickly became associated with rude behavior ... Here's an old signature joke from back then: A: Because it reverses the natural order of conversations and makes it confusing as to who posted what. Q: Why is that so annoying? A: Top posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing about mailing lists and Usenet? Monica Hall again: All I can say is that I agree with this. The problem arises when several people reply to a message consecutively, some at the top and some at the bottom. The important thing is to keep the discussion in a logical sequence which everyone can follow. Yes, I totally agree here, top-posting in reply to an interleaved message is plain and simply rude. And, btw. one is supposed to _trim_ the quoted sections, blindly replying with the full message of the original post is rude as well. Why? Because it really blows up the size of my message box. And it's anoying that, when searching for a post, a lot of not so relevant mails show up, only because old quotes still linger at the deep bottom of these messages. Cheers, Ralf Mattes -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: list - protocol
I have obviously started something here All I can say is that when I file paper invoices, bills, letters, payslips and all other bumph I put the most recent on top - these being the ones I am most likely to want to refer to again - and the ones at the bottom can be discarded when the pile gets too big. [And in fact I would be happy to do it either way - I just wish that we would all agree on which way.]. It seems that there isn't really any protocol and not much hope of pursuading people to adhere to it if there is. As for netiquette well.. Anyway a happy Easter, Spring Festival, Beltane, Royal Wedding or whatever any of you may be minded to celebrate or not at this time. I am off on holiday. Monica - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 7:10 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: list - protocol Alas, the tyrannical giant Microsoft and its forced default of top-replying so dominates the universe of electronic communication that I fear there is no easy way back to a rational conversational civility. This note was typed using MS Outlook (with a tear in the eye for the memory of Eudora). Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of R. Mattes Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 2:06 PM To: Monica Hall; Martyn Hodgson Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: list - protocol On Mon, 18 Apr 2011 17:42:10 +0100, Monica Hall forwarded From: [1]Martyn Hodgson As said, the reply at the top is usual (and historic!) practice. But it's also always a good idea to cut and paste in the relevant section one is queying/amplifying if the original is long This is simply wrong. Sorry, but the historic way to quote in Usenet (way before mailing list were common) was either bottom-post or interleaved. I still have my old copy of my university's version of 'Zen and the art of Internet' which teaches the art of interleaved quoting (and a lot of other netiquette ... what happened to the net, sigh!). Top-posting was brought to us by AOL (and later Microsoft) : their meassage clients had no means of qutoing the original and put the cursor above the original message text when replying. Since most of these new AOL users had no clue about haow to behave in an online community Top-posting quickly became associated with rude behavior ... Here's an old signature joke from back then: A: Because it reverses the natural order of conversations and makes it confusing as to who posted what. Q: Why is that so annoying? A: Top posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing about mailing lists and Usenet? Monica Hall again: All I can say is that I agree with this. The problem arises when several people reply to a message consecutively, some at the top and some at the bottom. The important thing is to keep the discussion in a logical sequence which everyone can follow. Yes, I totally agree here, top-posting in reply to an interleaved message is plain and simply rude. And, btw. one is supposed to _trim_ the quoted sections, blindly replying with the full message of the original post is rude as well. Why? Because it really blows up the size of my message box. And it's anoying that, when searching for a post, a lot of not so relevant mails show up, only because old quotes still linger at the deep bottom of these messages. Cheers, Ralf Mattes -- R. Mattes - Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Greetings from the President of the LSA
Greetings to all LSA members. The LSA will have a booth at the Boston Early Music Festival again this year and we are looking for members who might be interested in working at the booth. The commitment can be as much or as little as you would like to become involved, and duties would be to talk to visitors to the booth who might have questions about the lute or the Lute Society. If you will be in Boston from June 15 - 18 and would like to help out at the BEMF Exhibition, we would love to have you. Contact Dick Hoban, d.ho...@tcu.edu or Dan Larson d...@gamutmusic.com to sign up. Helpers get a pass to the festival and the thanks of a grateful Lute Society. Thanks, Dan Larson, LSA Persident Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
