[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Yes - that is certainly the case. However with baroque guitar music the octaves are intermittent rather than continuous. The other point is that because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to hear the upper notes rather than the lower ones and because the instrument has a small compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap with the notes on the upper courses. You get the same effect with octave stringing on the third course. It is not that one voice in the counterpoint is being duplicated. This is rather different from playing passages in octaves on the piano or harpsichord - where there wont be the same overlapping. On the organ it is possible to play different parts on different manuals but this raises quite different issues from the guitar. The point I was making about the vihuela is relevant here too because one of the arguments put forward in favour of unison stringing is that the individual contrapuntal lines will be compromised by the high octave strings. In my experience not many lutenists use octave stringing even for the earlier repertoire but when they do the effect this has on the music is very noticeable and quite difficult to adapt to. And as far as I am aware, they don't put the high octave string on the thumb side of a course. Monica - Original Message - From: michael.f...@notesinc.com michael.f...@notesinc.com To: 'Lex Eisenhardt' eisenha...@planet.nl; 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:36 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Dear List, At this point I feel compelled to say something about parallel octaves. If parallel octaves are continuous, they cease to be parallel octaves and become orchestration (e.g., organ or harpsichord stops). The parallel octaves that get red marks in a theory or counterpoint class are between two adjacent consonances and are usually part of a 3- or 4-voice texture. Sometimes they are hidden octaves: the same thing but with an intervening note in one of the voices. Sorry for the lecture. Mike Michael Fink michael.f...@notesinc.com -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Lex Eisenhardt Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:15 PM To: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Today the vihuela is usually tuned in unison throughout but this may not have been so in the 16^th century. If the 5^th and 6^th courses were octave strung this might alter our perceptions of the music. But to what extent? Early lutes had octaves, sometimes even on the 4th course. Certain organ stops have octaves too. The whole problem seems to be how you reconstruct the polyphony in your mind. The high octaves of the five-course guitar tend to be prominent indeed (although it depends also on how you touch them, and the string tension, and even on how they relate in height to the bourdon, at the bridge) but I happen to think that it's not a matter of measuring decibels in the first place. The baroque guitar has nothing in common with the classical guitar. Some people seem to shiver at the idea... most of the time it is difficult to hear the bourdon on the fifth course because all it is doing is creating parallel octaves in which the upper part is more audible. For some listeners there are parallel octaves, for others the bass becomes brighter and stronger, as a result of the blending of the overtones of the two strings, like on the lute or the organ (the latter has of course no strings). In the Sarabande the bass line falls a 7th at the cadence following the double bar - this big chord I comes out of nowhere! I'm afraid that's what big chords do. It is guitar music after all, in this funny mixed battuto-pizzicato style. Paradoxically the bourdon on the fourth often sounds to me more prominent especially in odd places in the campanellas. Maybe it's not a paradox, since there are more notes on the 4th course involved. It seems to be generally accepted that the bourdon on the 4th course is needed with Bartolotti, so this happens when you play what the tablature says. In all 5 clips there are only 2 campanela runs, by the way, they are both in the prelude. The section high up the neck in the courante, for instance, could be misleading, it is just a 'regular' texture. But neither is there any evidence that Italians thought of the guitar as having seven strings rather than five and that used the separate strings of the fourth and fifth courses independently as a matter of course. Again, it is not so much a matter of using the separate strings independently, but using your ears (and therefore also your hands) in a more varied way. Or should we believe that the tablature obliges you to always play the two strings (the octave
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Hi All, Just to give a lutenist's perspective (and copying to the lute list as it might be of interest there): For much of the 16th century lutes were routinely strung with octaves on courses 4-6. Almost equally routinely, the upper octaves are ignored as far as the counterpoint is concerned - lutenists making intabulations (with a few notable exceptions) just intabulated the voice parts literally. The degree to which the upper octave can be heard depends on many things, but perhaps most of all the skill of the player - mostly, you want the octave to be audible but not too strong as it is really there to colour the sound, adding some upper partials to the sound of the gut basses. The re-entrant tuning of the guitar is another kettle of fish Just as an aside, Dowland's remarks on octaves in Varietie of Lute Lessons (1610) have been widely misunderstood, even though what he writes is perfectly clear. He says that octaves were used more in England than elsewhere, so there is some justification (and quite a bit of evidence from the music itself) for using octaves even up to the 4th course in the music of Cutting, John Johnson, Holborne, and anyone else active in the 1580s and 90s (except possibly Ferrabosco, since he probably brought his Italian habits with him!). Oh and of course Barley's book of 1597 specifies octaves on courses 4-6, and although he borrowed much of his material from Le Roy (1568) he obviously thought it was still common practice. Best wishes, Martin Monica Hall wrote: Yes - that is certainly the case. However with baroque guitar music the octaves are intermittent rather than continuous. The other point is that because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to hear the upper notes rather than the lower ones and because the instrument has a small compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap with the notes on the upper courses. You get the same effect with octave stringing on the third course. It is not that one voice in the counterpoint is being duplicated. This is rather different from playing passages in octaves on the piano or harpsichord - where there wont be the same overlapping. On the organ it is possible to play different parts on different manuals but this raises quite different issues from the guitar. The point I was making about the vihuela is relevant here too because one of the arguments put forward in favour of unison stringing is that the individual contrapuntal lines will be compromised by the high octave strings. In my experience not many lutenists use octave stringing even for the earlier repertoire but when they do the effect this has on the music is very noticeable and quite difficult to adapt to. And as far as I am aware, they don't put the high octave string on the thumb side of a course. Monica - Original Message - From: michael.f...@notesinc.com michael.f...@notesinc.com To: 'Lex Eisenhardt' eisenha...@planet.nl; 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:36 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Dear List, At this point I feel compelled to say something about parallel octaves. If parallel octaves are continuous, they cease to be parallel octaves and become orchestration (e.g., organ or harpsichord stops). The parallel octaves that get red marks in a theory or counterpoint class are between two adjacent consonances and are usually part of a 3- or 4-voice texture. Sometimes they are hidden octaves: the same thing but with an intervening note in one of the voices. Sorry for the lecture. Mike Michael Fink michael.f...@notesinc.com -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Lex Eisenhardt Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:15 PM To: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Today the vihuela is usually tuned in unison throughout but this may not have been so in the 16^th century. If the 5^th and 6^th courses were octave strung this might alter our perceptions of the music. But to what extent? Early lutes had octaves, sometimes even on the 4th course. Certain organ stops have octaves too. The whole problem seems to be how you reconstruct the polyphony in your mind. The high octaves of the five-course guitar tend to be prominent indeed (although it depends also on how you touch them, and the string tension, and even on how they relate in height to the bourdon, at the bridge) but I happen to think that it's not a matter of measuring decibels in the first place. The baroque guitar has nothing in common with the classical guitar. Some people seem to shiver at the idea... most of the time it is difficult to hear the bourdon on the fifth course because all it is doing is creating parallel octaves in which the upper
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
That is all very useful! Monica - Original Message - From: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lute List l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:46 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Hi All, Just to give a lutenist's perspective (and copying to the lute list as it might be of interest there): For much of the 16th century lutes were routinely strung with octaves on courses 4-6. Almost equally routinely, the upper octaves are ignored as far as the counterpoint is concerned - lutenists making intabulations (with a few notable exceptions) just intabulated the voice parts literally. The degree to which the upper octave can be heard depends on many things, but perhaps most of all the skill of the player - mostly, you want the octave to be audible but not too strong as it is really there to colour the sound, adding some upper partials to the sound of the gut basses. The re-entrant tuning of the guitar is another kettle of fish Just as an aside, Dowland's remarks on octaves in Varietie of Lute Lessons (1610) have been widely misunderstood, even though what he writes is perfectly clear. He says that octaves were used more in England than elsewhere, so there is some justification (and quite a bit of evidence from the music itself) for using octaves even up to the 4th course in the music of Cutting, John Johnson, Holborne, and anyone else active in the 1580s and 90s (except possibly Ferrabosco, since he probably brought his Italian habits with him!). Oh and of course Barley's book of 1597 specifies octaves on courses 4-6, and although he borrowed much of his material from Le Roy (1568) he obviously thought it was still common practice. Best wishes, Martin Monica Hall wrote: Yes - that is certainly the case. However with baroque guitar music the octaves are intermittent rather than continuous. The other point is that because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to hear the upper notes rather than the lower ones and because the instrument has a small compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap with the notes on the upper courses. You get the same effect with octave stringing on the third course. It is not that one voice in the counterpoint is being duplicated. This is rather different from playing passages in octaves on the piano or harpsichord - where there wont be the same overlapping. On the organ it is possible to play different parts on different manuals but this raises quite different issues from the guitar. The point I was making about the vihuela is relevant here too because one of the arguments put forward in favour of unison stringing is that the individual contrapuntal lines will be compromised by the high octave strings. In my experience not many lutenists use octave stringing even for the earlier repertoire but when they do the effect this has on the music is very noticeable and quite difficult to adapt to. And as far as I am aware, they don't put the high octave string on the thumb side of a course. Monica - Original Message - From: michael.f...@notesinc.com michael.f...@notesinc.com To: 'Lex Eisenhardt' eisenha...@planet.nl; 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:36 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Dear List, At this point I feel compelled to say something about parallel octaves. If parallel octaves are continuous, they cease to be parallel octaves and become orchestration (e.g., organ or harpsichord stops). The parallel octaves that get red marks in a theory or counterpoint class are between two adjacent consonances and are usually part of a 3- or 4-voice texture. Sometimes they are hidden octaves: the same thing but with an intervening note in one of the voices. Sorry for the lecture. Mike Michael Fink michael.f...@notesinc.com -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Lex Eisenhardt Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:15 PM To: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Today the vihuela is usually tuned in unison throughout but this may not have been so in the 16^th century. If the 5^th and 6^th courses were octave strung this might alter our perceptions of the music. But to what extent? Early lutes had octaves, sometimes even on the 4th course. Certain organ stops have octaves too. The whole problem seems to be how you reconstruct the polyphony in your mind. The high octaves of the five-course guitar tend to be prominent indeed (although it depends also on how you touch them, and the string tension, and even on how they relate in height to the bourdon, at the bridge) but I happen to think that it's not a matter of measuring decibels in the first place. The baroque guitar has nothing
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Hello Monica, Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the unequal thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that ..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta vacante en quarta baxo, in the translation from your stringing article: Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, which is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor], the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and confuses the proper bass which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is produced without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th and not on 5th? Peter - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt There is rather a lot to respond to here! I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly. It broadens the scope of things beyond what it is practical to keep track of. (And I have never heard any of his music!!! (woeful ignorance!) Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. But that is not actually what he says. Without going through it all he considers two options and ends by saying Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the purpose for which you are playing. We just might have a bit of a choice However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate solo music like that of Bartolotti are all to do with the kind of strings available. If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas, which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as do only thin strings on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I have had much experience. This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with them because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two thin strings. Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two strings of unequal thickness - and he should know. And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions for much the same reasons. When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took nearly 150 years before this development took place. The most likely explanation is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing and because re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant tuning. Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th century bourdons were a more practical option. But after octave stringing became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit seems to have been composed for it. It was used mainly to provide Alberti bass style accompaniments for the voice. As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower courses it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above. There is a problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the Great Divide between the 3rd and 4th courses. However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow. Bear in mind also that the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for unaccompannied violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concentration to follow the musical argument. Perhaps you need to be a violinist to appreciate baroque guitar music (which I was in the dim distant past). Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:30 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Random musings from a folksy perspective... Not scholarship, just a love for the guitar in all its forms. Going back to good old Lead Belly (Huddie Ledbetter), who played the 12-string guitar because he wanted a loud, piano-like sound -- not unlike the advice we get from Sanz about bordones -- I have to say that nobody really worries about doubled octaves, nor which octave to pick out when listening to him. When Lead Belly played a walking bass, is was a BASS line, no doubt about it. The octave adds PRESENCE, but the note is BASS. Were the strings so different in the 17th C. that one could have so much doubt about the *sound* or *register* of a note played
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Not if you have another instrument playing the bass line. Assuming that your viola da gamba or theorbo was playing the note d on the middle line of the bass stave, with a bourdon on the 5th course the 5th of the chord will sound a fourth below. With the re-entrant tuning the lowest sounding note of Chord E will sound a 5th above. Can't make it clear without an example in staff notation. Monica - Original Message - From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Hello Monica, Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the unequal thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that ..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta vacante en quarta baxo, in the translation from your stringing article: Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, which is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor], the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and confuses the proper bass which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is produced without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th and not on 5th? Peter - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt There is rather a lot to respond to here! I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly. It broadens the scope of things beyond what it is practical to keep track of. (And I have never heard any of his music!!! (woeful ignorance!) Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. But that is not actually what he says. Without going through it all he considers two options and ends by saying Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the purpose for which you are playing. We just might have a bit of a choice However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate solo music like that of Bartolotti are all to do with the kind of strings available. If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas, which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as do only thin strings on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I have had much experience. This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with them because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two thin strings. Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two strings of unequal thickness - and he should know. And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions for much the same reasons. When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took nearly 150 years before this development took place. The most likely explanation is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing and because re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant tuning. Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th century bourdons were a more practical option. But after octave stringing became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit seems to have been composed for it. It was used mainly to provide Alberti bass style accompaniments for the voice. As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower courses it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above. There is a problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the Great Divide between the 3rd and 4th courses. However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow. Bear in mind also that the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for unaccompannied violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concentration to follow the musical argument. Perhaps you need to be a violinist to appreciate baroque guitar music (which I was in the dim distant past). Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:30 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Random musings from a folksy perspective... Not scholarship, just
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
I may be denser than usual today, but Not if you have another instrument playing the bass line. Assuming that your viola da gamba or theorbo was playing the note d on the middle line of the bass stave, That would be D, right? with a bourdon on the 5th course the 5th of the chord will sound a fourth below. With a bourdon punto E would be A d a d' f', with A still a fifth above the base line instrument surely? Peter - Original Message - From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Hello Monica, Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the unequal thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that ..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta vacante en quarta baxo, in the translation from your stringing article: Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, which is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor], the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and confuses the proper bass which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is produced without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th and not on 5th? Peter - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt There is rather a lot to respond to here! I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly. It broadens the scope of things beyond what it is practical to keep track of. (And I have never heard any of his music!!! (woeful ignorance!) Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. But that is not actually what he says. Without going through it all he considers two options and ends by saying Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the purpose for which you are playing. We just might have a bit of a choice However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate solo music like that of Bartolotti are all to do with the kind of strings available. If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas, which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as do only thin strings on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I have had much experience. This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with them because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two thin strings. Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two strings of unequal thickness - and he should know. And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions for much the same reasons. When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took nearly 150 years before this development took place. The most likely explanation is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing and because re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant tuning. Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th century bourdons were a more practical option. But after octave stringing became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit seems to have been composed for it. It was used mainly to provide Alberti bass style accompaniments for the voice. As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower courses it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above. There is a problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the Great Divide between the 3rd and 4th courses. However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow. Bear in mind also that the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for unaccompannied violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concentration to follow the musical argument. Perhaps you need to be a violinist to appreciate baroque guitar music (which I was in the dim distant past). Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:30 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
I may be denser than usual today, but Not really - but without staff notation it is very difficult to explain. Assuming that your viola da gamba or theorbo was playing the note d on the middle line of the bass stave, That would be D, right? No - following the standard way of indicating the pitch of note the bass instrument will be playing the note d - on the middle line of the bass clef. With a bourdon punto E would be A d a d' f', with A still a fifth above the base line instrument surely? No... it is a 4th below - A is in the lowest space in the bass stave. What is confusing you is that guitar music is always notated an octave higher than it sounds. With the re-entrant tuning the chord E will be ad' a d' f' The fact that guitar music is always notated an octave higher is another reason why there is so mcuh confusion about how it really sounds. In some ways it would be better to notate it at pitch of two staves. Monica Peter - Original Message - From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Hello Monica, Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the unequal thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that ..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta vacante en quarta baxo, in the translation from your stringing article: Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, which is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor], the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and confuses the proper bass which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is produced without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th and not on 5th? Peter - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt There is rather a lot to respond to here! I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly. It broadens the scope of things beyond what it is practical to keep track of. (And I have never heard any of his music!!! (woeful ignorance!) Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. But that is not actually what he says. Without going through it all he considers two options and ends by saying Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the purpose for which you are playing. We just might have a bit of a choice However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate solo music like that of Bartolotti are all to do with the kind of strings available. If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas, which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as do only thin strings on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I have had much experience. This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with them because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two thin strings. Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two strings of unequal thickness - and he should know. And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions for much the same reasons. When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took nearly 150 years before this development took place. The most likely explanation is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing and because re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant tuning. Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th century bourdons were a more practical option. But after octave stringing became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit seems to have been composed for it. It was used mainly to provide Alberti bass style accompaniments for the voice. As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower courses it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above. There is a problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the Great Divide between the 3rd and 4th courses. However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow. Bear in mind also that the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for unaccompannied violin and although the violin has a greater
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
What is confusing you is that guitar music is always notated an octave higher than it sounds. Yup..I had mentally transposed your basenote d down to D... Thanks for the explanation, that comment by Sanz about punto E had been bugging me for a while. Peter - Original Message - From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Hello Monica, Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the unequal thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that ..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta vacante en quarta baxo, in the translation from your stringing article: Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, which is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor], the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and confuses the proper bass which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is produced without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th and not on 5th? Peter - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt There is rather a lot to respond to here! I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly. It broadens the scope of things beyond what it is practical to keep track of. (And I have never heard any of his music!!! (woeful ignorance!) Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. But that is not actually what he says. Without going through it all he considers two options and ends by saying Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the purpose for which you are playing. We just might have a bit of a choice However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate solo music like that of Bartolotti are all to do with the kind of strings available. If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas, which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as do only thin strings on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I have had much experience. This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with them because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two thin strings. Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two strings of unequal thickness - and he should know. And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions for much the same reasons. When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took nearly 150 years before this development took place. The most likely explanation is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing and because re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant tuning. Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th century bourdons were a more practical option. But after octave stringing became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit seems to have been composed for it. It was used mainly to provide Alberti bass style accompaniments for the voice. As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower courses it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above. There is a problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the Great Divide between the 3rd and 4th courses. However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow. Bear in mind also that the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for unaccompannied violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concentration to follow the musical argument. Perhaps you need to be a violinist to appreciate baroque guitar music (which I was in the dim distant past). Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:30 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Random musings from a folksy perspective... Not scholarship, just a love for the guitar in all
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Dear List, At this point I feel compelled to say something about parallel octaves. If parallel octaves are continuous, they cease to be parallel octaves and become orchestration (e.g., organ or harpsichord stops). The parallel octaves that get red marks in a theory or counterpoint class are between two adjacent consonances and are usually part of a 3- or 4-voice texture. Sometimes they are hidden octaves: the same thing but with an intervening note in one of the voices. Sorry for the lecture. Mike Michael Fink michael.f...@notesinc.com -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Lex Eisenhardt Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:15 PM To: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Today the vihuela is usually tuned in unison throughout but this may not have been so in the 16^th century. If the 5^th and 6^th courses were octave strung this might alter our perceptions of the music. But to what extent? Early lutes had octaves, sometimes even on the 4th course. Certain organ stops have octaves too. The whole problem seems to be how you reconstruct the polyphony in your mind. The high octaves of the five-course guitar tend to be prominent indeed (although it depends also on how you touch them, and the string tension, and even on how they relate in height to the bourdon, at the bridge) but I happen to think that it's not a matter of measuring decibels in the first place. The baroque guitar has nothing in common with the classical guitar. Some people seem to shiver at the idea... most of the time it is difficult to hear the bourdon on the fifth course because all it is doing is creating parallel octaves in which the upper part is more audible. For some listeners there are parallel octaves, for others the bass becomes brighter and stronger, as a result of the blending of the overtones of the two strings, like on the lute or the organ (the latter has of course no strings). In the Sarabande the bass line falls a 7th at the cadence following the double bar - this big chord I comes out of nowhere! I'm afraid that's what big chords do. It is guitar music after all, in this funny mixed battuto-pizzicato style. Paradoxically the bourdon on the fourth often sounds to me more prominent especially in odd places in the campanellas. Maybe it's not a paradox, since there are more notes on the 4th course involved. It seems to be generally accepted that the bourdon on the 4th course is needed with Bartolotti, so this happens when you play what the tablature says. In all 5 clips there are only 2 campanela runs, by the way, they are both in the prelude. The section high up the neck in the courante, for instance, could be misleading, it is just a 'regular' texture. But neither is there any evidence that Italians thought of the guitar as having seven strings rather than five and that used the separate strings of the fourth and fifth courses independently as a matter of course. Again, it is not so much a matter of using the separate strings independently, but using your ears (and therefore also your hands) in a more varied way. Or should we believe that the tablature obliges you to always play the two strings (the octave and the bourdon) in perfect balance? (This would then of course also apply for the 4th course bourdon) It is also unfair to suggest that other people play the music the way that they do because it is fashionable and that they havent given careful thought to what they are doing. Maybe. All the heavyly syncopated afterbeat strumming (and percussion) doesn't sound very 17th century to me. Wouldn't it be on purpose, as a 'cross-over'? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
On 24 August 2010 21:52, Alexander Batov [1]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com wrote: OK, I'm glad we agree on this. Alexander On 24/08/2010 21:44, Monica Hall wrote: It's not my rationale! I prefer the msuic without the bourdon on the 5th course. I've just been listening to the same suite on the CD which Lex made in 1994 - with the French tuning. Much better in every way. Monica I'd be fascinated to hear both versions! The campanellas on these videos sound great with the low bourdons - or rather, with skilful avoidance of them (when necessary, as in campanellas). And their presence is very subtle. Alexander didn't even hear the low fifth. I know Monica and Lex have disputed these matters at length. This is obviously very sophisticated music. If (if) there is not sufficient evidence for either approach, and if it comes down to preference, then I think I'd rather go for bourdons. But it would be really interesting to hear one piece side by side with and without a bourdon on the fifth. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
I'd like to chime in (no pun intended) as a cured classical guitarist. (And let me add, nothing is worse than a cured drunk.) Hello, I'm Chris, and I'm a classical guitarist. Today I've been bordon - free for six months (applause). Actually, I struggled with this issue when I first got my instrument, and received some stinging replies -- the internet works that way. The point has been taken, and I'm happier for it. Indeed, the idiosyncrasies of the instrument are a very big deal. Not only do they affect the sound you hear. They affect the logic of your interpretation. I'm currently being extreme, and using the Sanz, no-bordon stringing. That means I have to ground myself with a G as the lowest note. Classical guitarists are used to grounding themselves in the lowest note of a voicing, and building their interpretation of voice leading (is that what you call it???) and melodic development on that. Well, we're also used to finding it THREE whole strings below the G. Grounding on the G in a 5-course instrument requires changes in physical logic, muscle logic, reading logic, melodic logic, and voicing logic. Probably the most difficult thing is to take a piece you learned and loved from a Narciso Yepes transcription of Sanz, and then play it on the Baroque guitar. Talk about cambio del chip, as they say in Spain... Or as the Firesign Theater once said, Everything You Know is Wrong. This is a GOOD thing. Embrace it. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 7:09:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt - Original Message - From: WALSH STUART [1]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Alexander Batov [2]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 9:42 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt On 24 August 2010 21:52, Alexander Batov [1][4]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com wrote: OK, I'm glad we agree on this. Alexander On 24/08/2010 21:44, Monica Hall wrote: It's not my rationale! I prefer the msuic without the bourdon on the 5th course. I've just been listening to the same suite on the CD which Lex made in 1994 - with the French tuning. Much better in every way. Monica I'd be fascinated to hear both versions! The campanellas on these videos sound great with the low bourdons - or rather, with skilful avoidance of them (when necessary, as in campanellas). And their presence is very subtle. Alexander didn't even hear the low fifth. I know Monica and Lex have disputed these matters at length. This is obviously very sophisticated music. If (if) there is not sufficient evidence for either approach, and if it comes down to preference, then I think I'd rather go for bourdons. But it would be really interesting to hear one piece side by side with and without a bourdon on the fifth. Stuart Well - that's what I was able to do as I have the CD. I think the quality of the recording of the CD is better than in the video - which is of a live performance and presumably unedited. But the point is that in the video he is trying to leave out the bourdons most of the time and to my ears this results in the campanellas sounding tentative and uneven - they don't ring out and overlap creating a bell-like effect. The idea that the skips of a 7th etc must be eliminated so that all you have is a rather feeble scale passage which would sound better played in a conventional way is misguided. That's not what happens with bell ringing. Also the bourdon on the fifth course creates an imbalence between 2 and 3 part counterpoint and the strummed 5-part chords which are too prominent - especially if they are 6-4s. There is no clear continuous bass line anyway and even in the gigue where there are imitative entries you hear these in the upper octave rather than the lower because it is impossible to leave the high octave string out. The re-entrant effect is a constant. I don't know what kind of strings he is using but in places the bourdon on the 5th course sound twangy. Overwound perhaps which Bartolotti would never have used. I would say that if you are going to use bourdons you should use plain gut ones and use them - not leave them out 90% of the time. I just find this idea that somehow all the idiocyncracies must be eliminated and the music made to sound as if it were rather inferior classical guitar music is incredibly pedantic. It is the idiocyncracies that make
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
You have actually summed up all the thoughts that have been running through my mind this afternoon. The problem is that classical guitarists all the time think of the fourth and fifth courses as sounding in the lower octave and they don't really listen to what they are actually playing. With bourdons or without them, the high octave strings are ever present and they alter both the melodic line and the internal counterpoint.This problem is exacerbated by the common practice of transcribing baroque guitar music into staff notation with the notes on the fourth and fifth course shown only in the lower octave. Added to which some classical guitarists don't seem to have a very good grasp of the rules of musical theory anyway and don't analyse the harmony and counterpoint correctly in the first place. It's a hopeless case really! I don't actually mind if people just play the music the way they like it. What irritates me is when they try to argue that what they are doing is historically accurate - and that everyone who does it differently is wrong. So - re-entrant tuners of the world unite. You have nothing to use but your bourdons. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall ; [3]WALSH STUART Cc: [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 12:56 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt I'd like to chime in (no pun intended) as a cured classical guitarist. (And let me add, nothing is worse than a cured drunk.) Hello, I'm Chris, and I'm a classical guitarist. Today I've been bordon - free for six months (applause). Actually, I struggled with this issue when I first got my instrument, and received some stinging replies -- the internet works that way. The point has been taken, and I'm happier for it. Indeed, the idiosyncrasies of the instrument are a very big deal. Not only do they affect the sound you hear. They affect the logic of your interpretation. I'm currently being extreme, and using the Sanz, no-bordon stringing. That means I have to ground myself with a G as the lowest note. Classical guitarists are used to grounding themselves in the lowest note of a voicing, and building their interpretation of voice leading (is that what you call it???) and melodic development on that. Well, we're also used to finding it THREE whole strings below the G. Grounding on the G in a 5-course instrument requires changes in physical logic, muscle logic, reading logic, melodic logic, and voicing logic. Probably the most difficult thing is to take a piece you learned and loved from a Narciso Yepes transcription of Sanz, and then play it on the Baroque guitar. Talk about cambio del chip, as they say in Spain... Or as the Firesign Theater once said, Everything You Know is Wrong. This is a GOOD thing. Embrace it. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: WALSH STUART s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 7:09:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt - Original Message - From: WALSH STUART [5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Alexander Batov [6]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 9:42 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt On 24 August 2010 21:52, Alexander Batov [1][8]alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com wrote: OK, I'm glad we agree on this. Alexander On 24/08/2010 21:44, Monica Hall wrote: It's not my rationale! I prefer the msuic without the bourdon on the 5th course. I've just been listening to the same suite on the CD which Lex made in 1994 - with the French tuning. Much better in every way. Monica I'd be fascinated to hear both versions! The campanellas on these videos sound great with the low bourdons - or rather, with skilful avoidance of them (when necessary, as in campanellas). And their presence is very subtle. Alexander didn't even hear the low fifth. I know Monica and Lex have disputed these matters at length. This is obviously very sophisticated music. If (if) there is not sufficient evidence for either approach, and if it comes down to preference, then I think I'd rather go for bourdons. But it would be really interesting to hear one piece side by side with and without a bourdon on the fifth. Stuart Well - that's what I was able to do as I have the CD. I think the quality of the recording of the CD is better than in the video - which is of a live performance
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
The problem is that classical guitarists all the time think of the fourth and fifth courses as sounding in the lower octave and they don't really listen to what they are actually playing. With bourdons or without them, the high octave strings are ever present and they alter both the melodic line and the internal counterpoint. Apparently there are different ways of listening to courses stringed in octaves. If there are bourdons, the sound they produce should probably not be ignored. Unless you would like to contend that both notes are meant to be of equal importance for the counterpoint (two melodies, in parallel octaves that would be), it would be needed to decide which line is supposed to predominate, at a certain point. That is the question to be answered when you 'really listen to what you are actually playing'. The same with French tuning, with only one bourdon, by the way. It's a hopeless case really! I don't actually mind if people just play the music the way they like it. What irritates me is when they try to argue that what they are doing is historically accurate - and that everyone who does it differently is wrong. Did anyone do that? Those ยก#%...@!* classical guitarists... Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Alfonso Marin wrote: Dear all, I have come across some beautiful Youtube videos of Lex Eisenhardt (my former guitar teacher at the Conservatory of Amsterdam before I studied the lute) that I well worth watching: http://www.youtube.com/user/secondolibro I hope you enjoy them! Greetings, Alfonso It's great to see these pieces being played. In the past I've struggled - without much success - with the Em Prelude and Allemande. (Is there an extra little campanella just near the end of the Prelude?) I should be able to hear, but does the fifth have a bourdon? It's always extremely interesting to see a professional perform a piece as well as play the music. Stuart -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Well - there are definitely bourdons on both the 4th and 5th courses. Whether you need them or not is another matter. Monica - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 6:53 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt Yes, there is a little campanella near the end. I don't think there is a bourdon (if there is I can't hear it); and it's not really necessary for the music. Alexander On 24/08/2010 18:32, Stuart Walsh wrote: It's great to see these pieces being played. In the past I've struggled - without much success - with the Em Prelude and Allemande. (Is there an extra little campanella just near the end of the Prelude?) I should be able to hear, but does the fifth have a bourdon? It's always extremely interesting to see a professional perform a piece as well as play the music. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
So am I! Monica - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2010 9:51 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt OK, I'm glad we agree on this. Alexander On 24/08/2010 21:44, Monica Hall wrote: It's not my rationale! I prefer the msuic without the bourdon on the 5th course. I've just been listening to the same suite on the CD which Lex made in 1994 - with the French tuning. Much better in every way. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
OK, I'm glad we agree on this. Alexander On 24/08/2010 21:44, Monica Hall wrote: It's not my rationale! I prefer the msuic without the bourdon on the 5th course. I've just been listening to the same suite on the CD which Lex made in 1994 - with the French tuning. Much better in every way. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
