[VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
Monica, you are a gold mine of information even when you're asking a
question : D
It's nice of you to say so.
I did run across that N alfabeto chord in Sanz recently. Ouch!
I realized this quite recently and then discovered a passage in Foscarini
where it was necessary to use a 4th finger half barre too. It is possible!
By the way, the chord shape we were talking about (I alfabeto, A
sounding chord on 5 course and modern guitars, and D on the 4 course)
is very easy to play as below on my little 4-course as:
a___
_2__c___
_1__c___
_1__c___
And then I'm free to ornament and move on from there afterward. I think
I might prefer the 1-2-3 on a modern classical guitar (which I rarely
play anymore), though, because of the difference in size and the
difference in the music.
I think the reason why I prefer 1-2-3- is because one of the commonest chord
sequences is the Folia in D minor which is basicallyE I E B and
stopping the 3rd course with the middle finger forms a pivot between I and
E.
But all these different ways have advantages and it is interesting to here
different views on the options.
Best
Monica
Best,
Jocelyn
___
From: Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:42:57 -0400
To: "Nelson, Jocelyn" <[2]nels...@ecu.edu>
Cc: Vihuelalist <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
Now we are getting even more abstruse!
The equivalent of chord I in Castilian notation is represented by the
letter
P and known as Patilla! Ribayaz calls it that and both Sanz and Guerau
have a Passacalles por Patilla but I can't remember whether Murcia
mentions
the term. It is called that because of the shape the notes/fingers
make on
the fingerboard. I think it means "a little plate".
In the "Arte de la guitarra" of Joseph Guerrero the equivalent of
Alfabeto
Chord A (G major) is called "dedillo". Nobody is quite sure why but
this is
probably because the first course is stopped with the little finger.
The
4-part version of this chord found in Millioni for example has the
second,
third and fourth courses unstopped.
In both Sanz and Murcia's tables there is a minor form of chord N
which
involves a 4th finger half barre...
Montesardo certainly does say you should make a trill whenever the 4th
finger is free - which is interesting in such an early alfabeto source.
Regards
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Nelson, Jocelyn" <[4]nels...@ecu.edu>
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; "Stewart McCoy"
<[6]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>; "Monica Hall" <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuela List" <[8]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 12:04 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
> Wasn't this the "pedilla" ("little foot") fingering mentioned in
one of
> the books? Sorry I can't find it now.
> But just as Stewart says, below, Montesardo says something in
general
> about leaving the left hand little finger free for trills or other
> ornaments (I'm going by Boye's translation).
> Jocelyn
>
___
>
> From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 03:34:56 -0400
> To: Vihuela List <[2][10]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Stewart McCoy
> <[3][11]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
> All, of course, helped by these chords being in a lower position
with
> the thicker frets.
> M
> --- On Sun, 11/10/09, Stewart McCoy <[4][12]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
> > From: Stewart McCoy <[5][13]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Chord I
> > To: "Vihuela List" <[6][14]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Sunday, 11 October, 2009, 9:13 PM
> > Dear Monica,
> >
> > Thank you for confirming what I had thought was the case,
> > that this is
> > the standard fingering for the A major chord in
> > 17th-century guitar
> > books:
> >
> > a___
> > _2__c___
> > _1__c___
> > _1__c___
> > a___
> >
> > That is the fingering I try to use now. The great advantage
> > is that you
> > can trill on the 2nd course using your 4th finger at the
> > 3rd fret. You
> > get plenty of leverage trilling between the 2nd and 4th
> > fingers, more
> > than yo
[VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
Monica, you are a gold mine of information even when you're asking a
question : D
I did run across that N alfabeto chord in Sanz recently. Ouch!
By the way, the chord shape we were talking about (I alfabeto, A
sounding chord on 5 course and modern guitars, and D on the 4 course)
is very easy to play as below on my little 4-course as:
a___
_2__c___
_1__c___
_1__c___
And then I'm free to ornament and move on from there afterward. I think
I might prefer the 1-2-3 on a modern classical guitar (which I rarely
play anymore), though, because of the difference in size and the
difference in the music.
Best,
Jocelyn
___
From: Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:42:57 -0400
To: "Nelson, Jocelyn" <[2]nels...@ecu.edu>
Cc: Vihuelalist <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
Now we are getting even more abstruse!
The equivalent of chord I in Castilian notation is represented by the
letter
P and known as Patilla! Ribayaz calls it that and both Sanz and Guerau
have a Passacalles por Patilla but I can't remember whether Murcia
mentions
the term. It is called that because of the shape the notes/fingers
make on
the fingerboard. I think it means "a little plate".
In the "Arte de la guitarra" of Joseph Guerrero the equivalent of
Alfabeto
Chord A (G major) is called "dedillo". Nobody is quite sure why but
this is
probably because the first course is stopped with the little finger.
The
4-part version of this chord found in Millioni for example has the
second,
third and fourth courses unstopped.
In both Sanz and Murcia's tables there is a minor form of chord N
which
involves a 4th finger half barre...
Montesardo certainly does say you should make a trill whenever the 4th
finger is free - which is interesting in such an early alfabeto source.
Regards
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Nelson, Jocelyn" <[4]nels...@ecu.edu>
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; "Stewart McCoy"
<[6]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>; "Monica Hall" <[7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: "Vihuela List" <[8]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 12:04 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
> Wasn't this the "pedilla" ("little foot") fingering mentioned in
one of
> the books? Sorry I can't find it now.
> But just as Stewart says, below, Montesardo says something in
general
> about leaving the left hand little finger free for trills or other
> ornaments (I'm going by Boye's translation).
> Jocelyn
>
___
>
> From: Martyn Hodgson <[1][9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 03:34:56 -0400
> To: Vihuela List <[2][10]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Stewart McCoy
> <[3][11]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
> All, of course, helped by these chords being in a lower position
with
> the thicker frets.
> M
> --- On Sun, 11/10/09, Stewart McCoy <[4][12]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
wrote:
> > From: Stewart McCoy <[5][13]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Chord I
> > To: "Vihuela List" <[6][14]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> > Date: Sunday, 11 October, 2009, 9:13 PM
> > Dear Monica,
> >
> > Thank you for confirming what I had thought was the case,
> > that this is
> > the standard fingering for the A major chord in
> > 17th-century guitar
> > books:
> >
> > a___
> > _2__c___
> > _1__c___
> > _1__c___
> > a___
> >
> > That is the fingering I try to use now. The great advantage
> > is that you
> > can trill on the 2nd course using your 4th finger at the
> > 3rd fret. You
> > get plenty of leverage trilling between the 2nd and 4th
> > fingers, more
> > than you would trilling with the 3rd and 4th fingers.
> >
> > There are many ways of fingering that A major chord. The
> > commonest seen
> > in modern guitar tutors is
> >
> > a___
> > _3__c___
> > _2__c___
> > _1__c___
> > a___
> >
> >
> > That's OK if you have thin fingers, but there is always the
[VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
> -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Monica Hall > Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 5:22 PM > To: Stewart McCoy > Cc: Vihuelalist > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I > > > There are many ways of fingering that A major chord. The commonest seen > > in modern guitar tutors is > > > > a___ > > _3__c___ > > _2__c___ > > _1__c___ > > a___ > > > > > > That's OK if you have thin fingers, but there is always the danger that > > the 1st finger won't get close enough to the 2nd fret, and you'll get a > > buzz. > > Yes - that's the fingering I use - and I guess I have much thinner > fingures > than all you gentleman - so thin in fact that I don't find stopping double > courses easy. I keep thinking maybe I should get the spacing reduced > between the strings of each course. > [Eugene C. Braig IV] I think the risk of buzzing is mitigated a bit on many 5-course guitars. Much fret gut is much thinner than much modern fret wire. Also, the scale length of 5-course guitars tends to be a bit longer than modern guitars, giving a little more room to pack those 2nd and 3rd fingers a little tighter getting the first close enough to the fret to avoid trouble. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
I really think that fingering is common to most modern guitarists in most genres that use the intervals of the current standard tuning, classical included, and probably has been since the time of alfabeto. A long tradition indeed. Eugene > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > Behalf Of Monica Hall > Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 10:22 AM > To: Rob MacKillop > Cc: Vihuelalist > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I > >That's very helpful and interesting what you say about the technique >being standard for blues and jazz. There's obviously a long tradition >there. > > > >Monica > >- Original Message - > >From: [1]Rob MacKillop > >To: [2]Monica Hall > >Cc: [3]Vihuelalist > >Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 1:42 PM > >Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Chord I > >I use the 2nd finger on the 2nd course, and the first finger on the >other two courses. I have no problem with the open first string >sounding. I show beginner-ish students this technique and invariable >they can't bend their first finger inwards at the first joint, but some >who have played blues and or jazz guitar before have no problem - it is >fairly standard technique for those styles. > > > >Rob > >2009/10/11 Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > >This is a rather abstruse query. >In most Italian guitar tables of alfabeto chords which include the > left >hand fingering the indication is that Chord I is to be played > using a >half (or hinge) barre to stop the 4th and 3rd courses and the 2nd >finger to stop the 2nd course at the 2nd fret. >0 >21 >21 >22 >0 >This doesn't seem to me the most convenient way of doing it > especially >when combined with other chords and I always use 1st, 2nd and 3rd >fingers. >Ruiz de Ribayaz does give my preferred fingering as an > alternative to >the Italian one. >Both Sanz and Murcia seem to think that the 4th course should be >stopped with the 1st finger and a 2nd finger half barre used to > stop >the 2nd and 3rd which seems a bit odd to me! >I wonder if Sanz is a misprint which Murcia has copied. >In the illustrations of the fingers stopping the chords on the >fingerboard in Sanz the standard Italian fingering is shown. >I just wonder how everyone else on this list usually fingers chord > I >and what the advantages are of the different possibilities. >Monica >-- > To get on or off this list see list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- > > References > >1. mailto:luteplay...@googlemail.com >2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu >4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
That's very helpful ...I've been practicing this morning. Monica - Original Message - From: "RALPH MAIER" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Stewart McCoy" ; "Vihuelalist" Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 5:43 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I It's interesting that Murcia would suggest a partial barre with the 2nd finger in his table. There are however plenty of instances where the I chord is written out using a partial barre with the first finger (for example, the Gallarda fol.5, line 2, m.3). If you find the barre difficult you might want to check your left hand position. The large knuckle at the base of the finger needs to be slightly ahead of the fingerboard and the tip segment has to be kept loose. Be persistent - eventually it will make your life much easier. Happy playing. Ralph - Original Message - From: Monica Hall Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009 3:22 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I To: Stewart McCoy Cc: Vihuelalist > Dear Stewart > > This is fascinating!! > > > Thank you for confirming what I had thought was the case, that > this is > > the standard fingering for the A major chord in 17th-century guitar > > books: > > > > a___ > > _2__c___ > > _1__c___ > > _1__c___ > > a___ > > > > That is the fingering I try to use now. The great advantage is > that you > > can trill on the 2nd course using your 4th finger at the 3rd > fret. You > > get plenty of leverage trilling between the 2nd and 4th > fingers, more > > than you would trilling with the 3rd and 4th fingers. > > I'll have to try that tomorrow morning. I normally trill > with the 3rd and > 4th fingers. This particular chord often has the d on the > 2nd course as 4-3 > suspension which I play with the 4th finger. > > > > There are many ways of fingering that A major chord. The > commonest seen > > in modern guitar tutors is > > > > a___ > > _3__c___ > > _2__c___ > > _1__c___ > > a___ > > > > > > That's OK if you have thin fingers, but there is always the > danger that > > the 1st finger won't get close enough to the 2nd fret, and > you'll get a > > buzz. > > Yes - that's the fingering I use - and I guess I have much > thinner fingures > than all you gentleman - so thin in fact that I don't find > stopping double > courses easy. I keep thinking maybe I should get the > spacing reduced > between the strings of each course. > > One way of avoiding that, is to use this fingering: > > > > a___ > > _3__c___ > > _1__c___ > > _2__c___ > > a___ > > > > which I sometimes use, particularly if hopping back and forth > between> chords of A and D major, because the 1st and 3rd > fingers stay on the > > same string. Otherwise I go for the first fingering above. > > > There are so many ways of doing things. So far no > one seems to opt for the > 2nd finger barre! > > I must try them all in the morning. > > Regards > > Monica > > > -Original Message- > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute- > a...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > > Behalf Of Monica Hall > > Sent: 11 October 2009 15:22 > > To: Rob MacKillop > > Cc: Vihuelalist > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I > > > > That's very helpful and interesting what you say > about the technique > > being standard for blues and jazz. There's > obviously a long > > tradition > > there. > > > > > > > > Monica > > > > - Original Message - > > > > From: [1]Rob MacKillop > > > > To: [2]Monica Hall > > > > Cc: [3]Vihuelalist > > > > Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 1:42 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Chord I > > > > I use the 2nd finger on the 2nd course, and the > first finger on the > > other two courses. I have no problem with the open > first string > > sounding. I show beginner-ish students this > technique and invariable > > they can't bend their first finger inwards at the > first joint, but > > some > > who have played blues and or jazz guitar before > have no problem - it > > is > > fairly standard technique for those styles. > > &g
[VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
Now we are getting even more abstruse!
The equivalent of chord I in Castilian notation is represented by the letter
P and known as Patilla! Ribayaz calls it that and both Sanz and Guerau
have a Passacalles por Patilla but I can't remember whether Murcia mentions
the term. It is called that because of the shape the notes/fingers make on
the fingerboard. I think it means "a little plate".
In the "Arte de la guitarra" of Joseph Guerrero the equivalent of Alfabeto
Chord A (G major) is called "dedillo". Nobody is quite sure why but this is
probably because the first course is stopped with the little finger.The
4-part version of this chord found in Millioni for example has the second,
third and fourth courses unstopped.
In both Sanz and Murcia's tables there is a minor form of chord N which
involves a 4th finger half barre...
Montesardo certainly does say you should make a trill whenever the 4th
finger is free - which is interesting in such an early alfabeto source.
Regards
Monica
- Original Message -
From: "Nelson, Jocelyn"
To: "Martyn Hodgson" ; "Stewart McCoy"
; "Monica Hall"
Cc: "Vihuela List"
Sent: Monday, October 12, 2009 12:04 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
Wasn't this the "pedilla" ("little foot") fingering mentioned in one of
the books? Sorry I can't find it now.
But just as Stewart says, below, Montesardo says something in general
about leaving the left hand little finger free for trills or other
ornaments (I'm going by Boye's translation).
Jocelyn
___
From: Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 03:34:56 -0400
To: Vihuela List <[2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Stewart McCoy
<[3]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
All, of course, helped by these chords being in a lower position with
the thicker frets.
M
--- On Sun, 11/10/09, Stewart McCoy <[4]lu...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> From: Stewart McCoy <[5]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Chord I
> To: "Vihuela List" <[6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Sunday, 11 October, 2009, 9:13 PM
> Dear Monica,
>
> Thank you for confirming what I had thought was the case,
> that this is
> the standard fingering for the A major chord in
> 17th-century guitar
> books:
>
> a___
> _2__c___
> _1__c___
> _1__c___
> a___
>
> That is the fingering I try to use now. The great advantage
> is that you
> can trill on the 2nd course using your 4th finger at the
> 3rd fret. You
> get plenty of leverage trilling between the 2nd and 4th
> fingers, more
> than you would trilling with the 3rd and 4th fingers.
>
> There are many ways of fingering that A major chord. The
> commonest seen
> in modern guitar tutors is
>
> a___
> _3__c___
> _2__c___
> _1__c___
> a___
>
>
> That's OK if you have thin fingers, but there is always the
> danger that
> the 1st finger won't get close enough to the 2nd fret, and
> you'll get a
> buzz. One way of avoiding that, is to use this fingering:
>
> a___
> _3__c___
> _1__c___
> _2__c___
> a___
>
> which I sometimes use, particularly if hopping back and
> forth between
> chords of A and D major, because the 1st and 3rd fingers
> stay on the
> same string. Otherwise I go for the first fingering above.
>
> By the way, exactly the same thing applies to the chord of
> G major on a
> renaissance lute:
>
> a___
> a___
> _2__c___
> _1__c___
> _1__c___
> a___
>
> is usually best, and as with the guitar, you can trill with
> your 4th
> finger, this time on the 3rd course.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Stewart McCoy.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> [[8]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
> On
> Behalf Of Monica Hall
> Sent: 11 October 2009 15:22
> To: Rob MacKillop
> Cc: Vihuelalist
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
>
>That's very helpful and interesting what
> you say about the technique
>being standard for blues and jazz.
> There's obviously a long
> tradition
>there.
>
>
>
>Monica
>
>- Original Message -
>
>From: [1]Rob MacKillop
>
>To: [2]Monica Hall
>
>Cc: [3]Vihuelalist
>
>Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 1:42 PM
>
>Subject: Re: [VIHUELA]
[VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
Oops; I just saw this message from Ralph, after I sent my last one.
Perhaps Murcia is the one who mentions pedilla, even though my possibly
faulty memory is that pedilla referred to a partial barre of the first
finger.
Jocelyn
___
From: RALPH MAIER <[1]rkcma...@shaw.ca>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 00:43:49 -0400
To: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: Stewart McCoy <[3]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>, Vihuelalist
<[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
It's interesting that Murcia would suggest a partial barre with the
2nd
finger in his table. There are however plenty of instances where the
I
chord is written out using a partial barre with the first finger
(for
example, the Gallarda fol.5, line 2, m.3).
If you find the barre difficult you might want to check your left
hand
position. The large knuckle at the base of the finger needs to be
slightly ahead of the fingerboard and the tip segment has to be kept
loose. Be persistent - eventually it will make your life much
easier.
Happy playing.
Ralph
- Original Message -
From: Monica Hall <[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009 3:22 pm
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
To: Stewart McCoy <[6]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
Cc: Vihuelalist <[7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Dear Stewart
>
> This is fascinating!!
>
> > Thank you for confirming what I had thought was the case, that
> this is
> > the standard fingering for the A major chord in 17th-century
guitar
> > books:
> >
> > a___
> > _2__c___
> > _1__c___
> > _1__c___
> > a___
> >
> > That is the fingering I try to use now. The great advantage is
> that you
> > can trill on the 2nd course using your 4th finger at the 3rd
> fret. You
> > get plenty of leverage trilling between the 2nd and 4th
> fingers, more
> > than you would trilling with the 3rd and 4th fingers.
>
> I'll have to try that tomorrow morning. I normally trill
> with the 3rd and
> 4th fingers. This particular chord often has the d on the
> 2nd course as 4-3
> suspension which I play with the 4th finger.
> >
> > There are many ways of fingering that A major chord. The
> commonest seen
> > in modern guitar tutors is
> >
> > a___
> > _3__c___
> > _2__c___
> > _1__c___
> > a___
> >
> >
> > That's OK if you have thin fingers, but there is always the
> danger that
> > the 1st finger won't get close enough to the 2nd fret, and
> you'll get a
> > buzz.
>
> Yes - that's the fingering I use - and I guess I have much
> thinner fingures
> than all you gentleman - so thin in fact that I don't find
> stopping double
> courses easy. I keep thinking maybe I should get the
> spacing reduced
> between the strings of each course.
>
> One way of avoiding that, is to use this fingering:
> >
> > a___
> > _3__c___
> > _1__c___
> > _2__c___
> > a___
> >
> > which I sometimes use, particularly if hopping back and forth
> between> chords of A and D major, because the 1st and 3rd
> fingers stay on the
> > same string. Otherwise I go for the first fingering above.
> >
> There are so many ways of doing things. So far no
> one seems to opt for the
> 2nd finger barre!
>
> I must try them all in the morning.
>
> Regards
>
> Monica
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [8]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[9]mailto:lute-
> [10]...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Monica Hall
> > Sent: 11 October 2009 15:22
> > To: Rob MacKillop
> > Cc: Vihuelalist
> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
> >
> > That's very helpful and interesting what you say
> about the technique
> > being standard for blues and jazz. There's
> obviously a long
> > tradition
> > there.
> >
> >
> >
> > Monica
> >
[VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
Wasn't this the "pedilla" ("little foot") fingering mentioned in one of
the books? Sorry I can't find it now.
But just as Stewart says, below, Montesardo says something in general
about leaving the left hand little finger free for trills or other
ornaments (I'm going by Boye's translation).
Jocelyn
___
From: Martyn Hodgson <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 03:34:56 -0400
To: Vihuela List <[2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, Stewart McCoy
<[3]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
All, of course, helped by these chords being in a lower position with
the thicker frets.
M
--- On Sun, 11/10/09, Stewart McCoy <[4]lu...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> From: Stewart McCoy <[5]lu...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Chord I
> To: "Vihuela List" <[6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Sunday, 11 October, 2009, 9:13 PM
> Dear Monica,
>
> Thank you for confirming what I had thought was the case,
> that this is
> the standard fingering for the A major chord in
> 17th-century guitar
> books:
>
> a___
> _2__c___
> _1__c___
> _1__c___
> a___
>
> That is the fingering I try to use now. The great advantage
> is that you
> can trill on the 2nd course using your 4th finger at the
> 3rd fret. You
> get plenty of leverage trilling between the 2nd and 4th
> fingers, more
> than you would trilling with the 3rd and 4th fingers.
>
> There are many ways of fingering that A major chord. The
> commonest seen
> in modern guitar tutors is
>
> a___
> _3__c___
> _2__c___
> _1__c___
> a___
>
>
> That's OK if you have thin fingers, but there is always the
> danger that
> the 1st finger won't get close enough to the 2nd fret, and
> you'll get a
> buzz. One way of avoiding that, is to use this fingering:
>
> a___
> _3__c___
> _1__c___
> _2__c___
> a___
>
> which I sometimes use, particularly if hopping back and
> forth between
> chords of A and D major, because the 1st and 3rd fingers
> stay on the
> same string. Otherwise I go for the first fingering above.
>
> By the way, exactly the same thing applies to the chord of
> G major on a
> renaissance lute:
>
> a___
> a___
> _2__c___
> _1__c___
> _1__c___
> a___
>
> is usually best, and as with the guitar, you can trill with
> your 4th
> finger, this time on the 3rd course.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Stewart McCoy.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> [[8]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
> On
> Behalf Of Monica Hall
> Sent: 11 October 2009 15:22
> To: Rob MacKillop
> Cc: Vihuelalist
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
>
>That's very helpful and interesting what
> you say about the technique
>being standard for blues and jazz.
> There's obviously a long
> tradition
>there.
>
>
>
>Monica
>
>- Original Message -
>
>From: [1]Rob MacKillop
>
>To: [2]Monica Hall
>
>Cc: [3]Vihuelalist
>
>Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 1:42 PM
>
>Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Chord I
>
>I use the 2nd finger on the 2nd course,
> and the first finger on the
>other two courses. I have no problem with
> the open first string
>sounding. I show beginner-ish students
> this technique and invariable
>they can't bend their first finger
> inwards at the first joint, but
> some
>who have played blues and or jazz guitar
> before have no problem - it
> is
>fairly standard technique for those
> styles.
>
>
>
>Rob
>
>2009/10/11 Monica Hall <[4][9]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
>
>This is a rather abstruse
> query.
>In most Italian guitar
> tables of alfabeto chords which include
> the
> left
>hand fingering the
> indication is that Chord I is to be played
> using a
>half (or hinge) barre to
> stop the 4th and 3rd courses and the 2nd
>finger to stop the 2nd
> course at the 2nd fret.
>
>0
>
>21
>
>21
>
&
[VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
All, of course, helped by these chords being in a lower position with the thicker frets. M --- On Sun, 11/10/09, Stewart McCoy wrote: > From: Stewart McCoy > Subject: [VIHUELA] Chord I > To: "Vihuela List" > Date: Sunday, 11 October, 2009, 9:13 PM > Dear Monica, > > Thank you for confirming what I had thought was the case, > that this is > the standard fingering for the A major chord in > 17th-century guitar > books: > > a___ > _2__c___ > _1__c___ > _1__c___ > a___ > > That is the fingering I try to use now. The great advantage > is that you > can trill on the 2nd course using your 4th finger at the > 3rd fret. You > get plenty of leverage trilling between the 2nd and 4th > fingers, more > than you would trilling with the 3rd and 4th fingers. > > There are many ways of fingering that A major chord. The > commonest seen > in modern guitar tutors is > > a___ > _3__c___ > _2__c___ > _1__c___ > a___ > > > That's OK if you have thin fingers, but there is always the > danger that > the 1st finger won't get close enough to the 2nd fret, and > you'll get a > buzz. One way of avoiding that, is to use this fingering: > > a___ > _3__c___ > _1__c___ > _2__c___ > a___ > > which I sometimes use, particularly if hopping back and > forth between > chords of A and D major, because the 1st and 3rd fingers > stay on the > same string. Otherwise I go for the first fingering above. > > By the way, exactly the same thing applies to the chord of > G major on a > renaissance lute: > > a___ > a___ > _2__c___ > _1__c___ > _1__c___ > a___ > > is usually best, and as with the guitar, you can trill with > your 4th > finger, this time on the 3rd course. > > Best wishes, > > Stewart McCoy. > > -Original Message- > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu > [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] > On > Behalf Of Monica Hall > Sent: 11 October 2009 15:22 > To: Rob MacKillop > Cc: Vihuelalist > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I > > That's very helpful and interesting what > you say about the technique > being standard for blues and jazz. > There's obviously a long > tradition > there. > > > > Monica > > - Original Message - > > From: [1]Rob MacKillop > > To: [2]Monica Hall > > Cc: [3]Vihuelalist > > Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 1:42 PM > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Chord I > > I use the 2nd finger on the 2nd course, > and the first finger on the > other two courses. I have no problem with > the open first string > sounding. I show beginner-ish students > this technique and invariable > they can't bend their first finger > inwards at the first joint, but > some > who have played blues and or jazz guitar > before have no problem - it > is > fairly standard technique for those > styles. > > > > Rob > > 2009/10/11 Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > This is a rather abstruse > query. > In most Italian guitar > tables of alfabeto chords which include > the > left > hand fingering the > indication is that Chord I is to be played > using a > half (or hinge) barre to > stop the 4th and 3rd courses and the 2nd > finger to stop the 2nd > course at the 2nd fret. > > 0 > > 2 1 > > 2 1 > > 2 2 > > 0 > This doesn't seem to me the > most convenient way of doing it > especially > when combined with other > chords and I always use 1st, 2nd and 3rd > fingers. > Ruiz de Ribayaz does give > my preferred fingering as an > alternative to > the Italian one. > Both Sanz and Murcia seem > to think that the 4th course should be > stopped with the 1st finger > and a 2nd finger half barre used to > stop > the 2nd and 3rd which seems > a bit odd to me! > I wonder if Sanz is a > misprint which Murcia has copied. > In the illustrations of the > fingers stopping the chords on the > fingerboard in Sanz the > standard Italian fingering is shown. > I just wonder how everyone > else on this list usually fingers > chord > I > and what the advantages are > of the different possibilities. > Monica > -- > To get on or off this list see > list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. mailto:luteplay...@googlemail.com > 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu > 4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk > 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
It's interesting that Murcia would suggest a partial barre with the 2nd finger in his table. There are however plenty of instances where the I chord is written out using a partial barre with the first finger (for example, the Gallarda fol.5, line 2, m.3). If you find the barre difficult you might want to check your left hand position. The large knuckle at the base of the finger needs to be slightly ahead of the fingerboard and the tip segment has to be kept loose. Be persistent - eventually it will make your life much easier. Happy playing. Ralph - Original Message - From: Monica Hall Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009 3:22 pm Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I To: Stewart McCoy Cc: Vihuelalist > Dear Stewart > > This is fascinating!! > > > Thank you for confirming what I had thought was the case, that > this is > > the standard fingering for the A major chord in 17th-century guitar > > books: > > > > a___ > > _2__c___ > > _1__c___ > > _1__c___ > > a___ > > > > That is the fingering I try to use now. The great advantage is > that you > > can trill on the 2nd course using your 4th finger at the 3rd > fret. You > > get plenty of leverage trilling between the 2nd and 4th > fingers, more > > than you would trilling with the 3rd and 4th fingers. > > I'll have to try that tomorrow morning. I normally trill > with the 3rd and > 4th fingers. This particular chord often has the d on the > 2nd course as 4-3 > suspension which I play with the 4th finger. > > > > There are many ways of fingering that A major chord. The > commonest seen > > in modern guitar tutors is > > > > a___ > > _3__c___ > > _2__c___ > > _1__c___ > > a___ > > > > > > That's OK if you have thin fingers, but there is always the > danger that > > the 1st finger won't get close enough to the 2nd fret, and > you'll get a > > buzz. > > Yes - that's the fingering I use - and I guess I have much > thinner fingures > than all you gentleman - so thin in fact that I don't find > stopping double > courses easy. I keep thinking maybe I should get the > spacing reduced > between the strings of each course. > > One way of avoiding that, is to use this fingering: > > > > a___ > > _3__c___ > > _1__c___ > > _2__c___ > > a___ > > > > which I sometimes use, particularly if hopping back and forth > between> chords of A and D major, because the 1st and 3rd > fingers stay on the > > same string. Otherwise I go for the first fingering above. > > > There are so many ways of doing things. So far no > one seems to opt for the > 2nd finger barre! > > I must try them all in the morning. > > Regards > > Monica > > > -Original Message- > > From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute- > a...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On > > Behalf Of Monica Hall > > Sent: 11 October 2009 15:22 > > To: Rob MacKillop > > Cc: Vihuelalist > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I > > > > That's very helpful and interesting what you say > about the technique > > being standard for blues and jazz. There's > obviously a long > > tradition > > there. > > > > > > > > Monica > > > > - Original Message - > > > > From: [1]Rob MacKillop > > > > To: [2]Monica Hall > > > > Cc: [3]Vihuelalist > > > > Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 1:42 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Chord I > > > > I use the 2nd finger on the 2nd course, and the > first finger on the > > other two courses. I have no problem with the open > first string > > sounding. I show beginner-ish students this > technique and invariable > > they can't bend their first finger inwards at the > first joint, but > > some > > who have played blues and or jazz guitar before > have no problem - it > > is > > fairly standard technique for those styles. > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > 2009/10/11 Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > > > > This is a r
[VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
Dear Stewart This is fascinating!! Thank you for confirming what I had thought was the case, that this is the standard fingering for the A major chord in 17th-century guitar books: a___ _2__c___ _1__c___ _1__c___ a___ That is the fingering I try to use now. The great advantage is that you can trill on the 2nd course using your 4th finger at the 3rd fret. You get plenty of leverage trilling between the 2nd and 4th fingers, more than you would trilling with the 3rd and 4th fingers. I'll have to try that tomorrow morning. I normally trill with the 3rd and 4th fingers. This particular chord often has the d on the 2nd course as 4-3 suspension which I play with the 4th finger. There are many ways of fingering that A major chord. The commonest seen in modern guitar tutors is a___ _3__c___ _2__c___ _1__c___ a___ That's OK if you have thin fingers, but there is always the danger that the 1st finger won't get close enough to the 2nd fret, and you'll get a buzz. Yes - that's the fingering I use - and I guess I have much thinner fingures than all you gentleman - so thin in fact that I don't find stopping double courses easy. I keep thinking maybe I should get the spacing reduced between the strings of each course. One way of avoiding that, is to use this fingering: a___ _3__c___ _1__c___ _2__c___ a___ which I sometimes use, particularly if hopping back and forth between chords of A and D major, because the 1st and 3rd fingers stay on the same string. Otherwise I go for the first fingering above. There are so many ways of doing things. So far no one seems to opt for the 2nd finger barre! I must try them all in the morning. Regards Monica -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 11 October 2009 15:22 To: Rob MacKillop Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I That's very helpful and interesting what you say about the technique being standard for blues and jazz. There's obviously a long tradition there. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Rob MacKillop To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Chord I I use the 2nd finger on the 2nd course, and the first finger on the other two courses. I have no problem with the open first string sounding. I show beginner-ish students this technique and invariable they can't bend their first finger inwards at the first joint, but some who have played blues and or jazz guitar before have no problem - it is fairly standard technique for those styles. Rob 2009/10/11 Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> This is a rather abstruse query. In most Italian guitar tables of alfabeto chords which include the left hand fingering the indication is that Chord I is to be played using a half (or hinge) barre to stop the 4th and 3rd courses and the 2nd finger to stop the 2nd course at the 2nd fret. 0 21 21 22 0 This doesn't seem to me the most convenient way of doing it especially when combined with other chords and I always use 1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers. Ruiz de Ribayaz does give my preferred fingering as an alternative to the Italian one. Both Sanz and Murcia seem to think that the 4th course should be stopped with the 1st finger and a 2nd finger half barre used to stop the 2nd and 3rd which seems a bit odd to me! I wonder if Sanz is a misprint which Murcia has copied. In the illustrations of the fingers stopping the chords on the fingerboard in Sanz the standard Italian fingering is shown. I just wonder how everyone else on this list usually fingers chord I and what the advantages are of the different possibilities. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:luteplay...@googlemail.com 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
That's very helpful and interesting what you say about the technique being standard for blues and jazz. There's obviously a long tradition there. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Rob MacKillop To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Chord I I use the 2nd finger on the 2nd course, and the first finger on the other two courses. I have no problem with the open first string sounding. I show beginner-ish students this technique and invariable they can't bend their first finger inwards at the first joint, but some who have played blues and or jazz guitar before have no problem - it is fairly standard technique for those styles. Rob 2009/10/11 Monica Hall <[4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> This is a rather abstruse query. In most Italian guitar tables of alfabeto chords which include the left hand fingering the indication is that Chord I is to be played using a half (or hinge) barre to stop the 4th and 3rd courses and the 2nd finger to stop the 2nd course at the 2nd fret. 0 21 21 22 0 This doesn't seem to me the most convenient way of doing it especially when combined with other chords and I always use 1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers. Ruiz de Ribayaz does give my preferred fingering as an alternative to the Italian one. Both Sanz and Murcia seem to think that the 4th course should be stopped with the 1st finger and a 2nd finger half barre used to stop the 2nd and 3rd which seems a bit odd to me! I wonder if Sanz is a misprint which Murcia has copied. In the illustrations of the fingers stopping the chords on the fingerboard in Sanz the standard Italian fingering is shown. I just wonder how everyone else on this list usually fingers chord I and what the advantages are of the different possibilities. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:luteplay...@googlemail.com 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
Depending on context (where I've come from and where I have to go from there), I will use 1st finger on fourth and third course and 2nd finger on second or 2nd finger on the fourth course, 1st on third, and 3rd on second. Eugene - Original Message - From: Rob MacKillop Date: Sunday, October 11, 2009 8:42 am Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Chord I To: Monica Hall Cc: Vihuelalist >I use the 2nd finger on the 2nd course, and the > first finger on the >other two courses. I have no problem with the open > first string >sounding. I show beginner-ish students this > technique and invariable >they can't bend their first finger inwards at the > first joint, but some >who have played blues and or jazz guitar before > have no problem - it is >fairly standard technique for those styles. > > > >Rob > >2009/10/11 Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > >This is a rather abstruse query. >In most Italian guitar > tables of alfabeto chords which include the > left >hand fingering the > indication is that Chord I is to be played > using a >half (or hinge) barre to > stop the 4th and 3rd courses and the 2nd >finger to stop the 2nd > course at the 2nd fret. >0 >21 >21 >22 >0 >This doesn't seem to me the > most convenient way of doing it > especially >when combined with other > chords and I always use 1st, 2nd and 3rd >fingers. >Ruiz de Ribayaz does give > my preferred fingering as an > alternative to >the Italian one. >Both Sanz and Murcia seem > to think that the 4th course should be >stopped with the 1st finger > and a 2nd finger half barre used to > stop >the 2nd and 3rd which seems > a bit odd to me! >I wonder if Sanz is a > misprint which Murcia has copied. >In the illustrations of the > fingers stopping the chords on the >fingerboard in Sanz the > standard Italian fingering is shown. >I just wonder how everyone > else on this list usually fingers chord > I >and what the advantages are > of the different possibilities. >Monica >-- > To get on or off this list see list > information at > > [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- > > References > >1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk >2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Chord I
I use the 2nd finger on the 2nd course, and the first finger on the other two courses. I have no problem with the open first string sounding. I show beginner-ish students this technique and invariable they can't bend their first finger inwards at the first joint, but some who have played blues and or jazz guitar before have no problem - it is fairly standard technique for those styles. Rob 2009/10/11 Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> This is a rather abstruse query. In most Italian guitar tables of alfabeto chords which include the left hand fingering the indication is that Chord I is to be played using a half (or hinge) barre to stop the 4th and 3rd courses and the 2nd finger to stop the 2nd course at the 2nd fret. 0 21 21 22 0 This doesn't seem to me the most convenient way of doing it especially when combined with other chords and I always use 1st, 2nd and 3rd fingers. Ruiz de Ribayaz does give my preferred fingering as an alternative to the Italian one. Both Sanz and Murcia seem to think that the 4th course should be stopped with the 1st finger and a 2nd finger half barre used to stop the 2nd and 3rd which seems a bit odd to me! I wonder if Sanz is a misprint which Murcia has copied. In the illustrations of the fingers stopping the chords on the fingerboard in Sanz the standard Italian fingering is shown. I just wonder how everyone else on this list usually fingers chord I and what the advantages are of the different possibilities. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
