[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
Hi Chris, I think you're too modest about the clarity of texture you achieve, but I agree that tablature can be an excellent type of notation; much more useful than we moderns expect. Best, Jocelyn On 1/16/2011 4:09 AM, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks for the encouragement. I'll say that if you can hear distinct voices in the mandore, blame the composer. The logic of his compositions, and the way he implies continuity in the voices when the plectrum can't carry it explicitly is pure genius. The tablature indicates everything -- up and down strokes are particularly important. You could almost imagine an elaborate wind-up machine controlled by the instructions and successfully playing this stuff, it's that logical. Cheers cud __ From: Nelson, Jocelyn [2]nels...@ecu.edu To: Chris Despopoulos [3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; Stuart Walsh [4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 7:26:28 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces I enjoyed this, Chris. The voices in the Chancy pieces are clear and distinct from each other, and it's kind of amazing you were able to this with a plectrum. So I think you do show the depth in these little pieces. Chancy's an interesting composer. And I like your strums in the Sanz! Thanks for posting and sending the link. Best, Jocelyn From: Chris Despopoulos [[1][6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 12:39 PM To: Stuart Walsh; Nelson, Jocelyn Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Always one to toot my own horn (or pluck my own strings, as it were), I have posted some recordings on my personal site at: [2][7]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Two tracks are some old recordings I did on the mandore, and three others are on the baroque guitar... I keep meaning to do better, but where's the time? Anyway, the mandore recordings are of Chancy's Suite #5, and 3 of his series of 6 branles. The tablatures are for a 4-string instrument, and as I understand it, to be played with a plectrum. At least that's what I was taught by Didier Le Roux and other members of l'Ensemble Gabriel Leone (I was *very* fortunate to attend a class that reviewed the mandolin. I never made it past the mandore.) In spite of being played with a plectrum, the Chancy music is full of hidden polyphony. For the miniature qualities it has on the surface, I believe the music is vast in scope... if only I could reveal a fraction of its depth and breadth I'd be happy. Anyway, for your enjoyment... Vive le mandore! cheers cud From: Stuart Walsh [3][8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Nelson, Jocelyn [4][9]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist [5][10]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Chris Despopoulos [6][11]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 11:52:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces On 12/01/2011 16:35, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to learning more about it. JN Jean-Marie Poirier has a site devoted to the instrument. [7][12]http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html It's French, of course but there is a pdf of an article by the late James Tyler from Early Music. Donald Gill and James Tyler have both tried to promote the mandore (and the mandolino) and have both written about them. Supposing a tuning with top d (it might be g - or something else) then a four-course tuning would be g-d-g-d (or g-d-g'-d' or maybe I mean d'', but you get the point!). And a five course instrument would be d-g-d-g-d. But on both four and five-course instruments the top course could be lowered to c, b flat etc. Also the Skene MS has a section of pieces in lute tuning. Stuart On 1/11/2011 2:34 PM, Stuart Walsh[8][13]s.wa...@ntlworld.com[14]mailto:[9]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
Yes, but I was also getting at the logic of his composition. He takes your right hand and moves it around in ways that you would never expect. And he breaks the voices up in ways that do really hide the polyphony... but reveal it at the same time. It's sort of like a painting that suggest the form more than explicitly outlines it. If you look at it in a certain way, you see it like a photograph. A different way of seeing reduces it to loosely connected calligraphy. It's truly amazing stuff, and I can't pretend I understand it. But I like it! cud __ From: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, January 17, 2011 11:43:16 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Hi Chris, I think you're too modest about the clarity of texture you achieve, but I agree that tablature can be an excellent type of notation; much more useful than we moderns expect. Best, Jocelyn On 1/16/2011 4:09 AM, Chris Despopoulos [1][1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks for the encouragement. I'll say that if you can hear distinct voices in the mandore, blame the composer. The logic of his compositions, and the way he implies continuity in the voices when the plectrum can't carry it explicitly is pure genius. The tablature indicates everything -- up and down strokes are particularly important. You could almost imagine an elaborate wind-up machine controlled by the instructions and successfully playing this stuff, it's that logical. Cheerscud __ From: Nelson, Jocelyn [2][2]nels...@ecu.edu To: Chris Despopoulos [3][3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; Stuart Walsh [4][4]s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist [5][5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 7:26:28 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces I enjoyed this, Chris. The voices in the Chancy pieces are clear and distinct from each other, and it's kind of amazing you were able to this with a plectrum. So I think you do show the depth in these little pieces. Chancy's an interesting composer. And I like your strums in the Sanz! Thanks for posting and sending the link. Best, Jocelyn From: Chris Despopoulos [[1][6][6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 12:39 PM To: Stuart Walsh; Nelson, Jocelyn Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Always one to toot my own horn (or pluck my own strings, as it were), I have posted some recordings on my personal site at: [2][7][7]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Two tracks are some old recordings I did on the mandore, and three others are on the baroque guitar... I keep meaning to do better, but where's the time? Anyway, the mandore recordings are of Chancy's Suite #5, and 3 of his series of 6 branles. The tablatures are for a 4-string instrument, and as I understand it, to be played with a plectrum. At least that's what I was taught by Didier Le Roux and other members of l'Ensemble Gabriel Leone (I was *very* fortunate to attend a class that reviewed the mandolin. I never made it past the mandore.) In spite of being played with a plectrum, the Chancy music is full of hidden polyphony. For the miniature qualities it has on the surface, I believe the music is vast in scope... if only I could reveal a fraction of its depth and breadth I'd be happy. Anyway, for your enjoyment... Vive le mandore! cheers cud From: Stuart Walsh [3][8][8]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Nelson, Jocelyn [4][9][9]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist [5][10][10]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Chris Despopoulos [6][11][11]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 11:52:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces On 12/01/2011 16:35, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to learning more
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
Thanks for the encouragement. I'll say that if you can hear distinct voices in the mandore, blame the composer. The logic of his compositions, and the way he implies continuity in the voices when the plectrum can't carry it explicitly is pure genius. The tablature indicates everything -- up and down strokes are particularly important. You could almost imagine an elaborate wind-up machine controlled by the instructions and successfully playing this stuff, it's that logical. Cheers cud __ From: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 7:26:28 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces I enjoyed this, Chris. The voices in the Chancy pieces are clear and distinct from each other, and it's kind of amazing you were able to this with a plectrum. So I think you do show the depth in these little pieces. Chancy's an interesting composer. And I like your strums in the Sanz! Thanks for posting and sending the link. Best, Jocelyn From: Chris Despopoulos [[1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 12:39 PM To: Stuart Walsh; Nelson, Jocelyn Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Always one to toot my own horn (or pluck my own strings, as it were), I have posted some recordings on my personal site at: [2]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Two tracks are some old recordings I did on the mandore, and three others are on the baroque guitar... I keep meaning to do better, but where's the time? Anyway, the mandore recordings are of Chancy's Suite #5, and 3 of his series of 6 branles. The tablatures are for a 4-string instrument, and as I understand it, to be played with a plectrum. At least that's what I was taught by Didier Le Roux and other members of l'Ensemble Gabriel Leone (I was *very* fortunate to attend a class that reviewed the mandolin. I never made it past the mandore.) In spite of being played with a plectrum, the Chancy music is full of hidden polyphony. For the miniature qualities it has on the surface, I believe the music is vast in scope... if only I could reveal a fraction of its depth and breadth I'd be happy. Anyway, for your enjoyment... Vive le mandore! cheers cud From: Stuart Walsh [3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Nelson, Jocelyn [4]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist [5]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Chris Despopoulos [6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 11:52:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces On 12/01/2011 16:35, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to learning more about it. JN Jean-Marie Poirier has a site devoted to the instrument. [7]http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html It's French, of course but there is a pdf of an article by the late James Tyler from Early Music. Donald Gill and James Tyler have both tried to promote the mandore (and the mandolino) and have both written about them. Supposing a tuning with top d (it might be g - or something else) then a four-course tuning would be g-d-g-d (or g-d-g'-d' or maybe I mean d'', but you get the point!). And a five course instrument would be d-g-d-g-d. But on both four and five-course instruments the top course could be lowered to c, b flat etc. Also the Skene MS has a section of pieces in lute tuning. Stuart On 1/11/2011 2:34 PM, Stuart Walsh[8]s.wa...@ntlworld.commailto:[9]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn Thanks! I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123 pieces for five-course mandore (fingerstyle or mixed plectrum and fingers) and a small number for four-course mandore (probably plectrum). So the Skene and the Ulm collections make up several hundred pieces - approaching the size of the repertoire for the four-course guitar. And then there are the Chancy pieces and some other things. Of course the four-course guitar's repertoire is more varied: songs, abstract pieces, chanson settings as well as dances etc and the mandore repertoire seems to be mainly dances and ballad tunes. Very nice though. Stuart On 1/10/2011 7:04 AM, Chris Despopoulos[10
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to learning more about it. JN On 1/11/2011 2:34 PM, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn Thanks! I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123 pieces for five-course mandore (fingerstyle or mixed plectrum and fingers) and a small number for four-course mandore (probably plectrum). So the Skene and the Ulm collections make up several hundred pieces - approaching the size of the repertoire for the four-course guitar. And then there are the Chancy pieces and some other things. Of course the four-course guitar's repertoire is more varied: songs, abstract pieces, chanson settings as well as dances etc and the mandore repertoire seems to be mainly dances and ballad tunes. Very nice though. Stuart On 1/10/2011 7:04 AM, Chris Despopoulosdespopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks... My instrument is 30 cm, and actually 5-course, single strung. I presume it's made according to historical understanding... I believe Carlos Gonzales is a historian as well as builder -- he's planning a workshop on building ancient Egyptian/Coptic lutes this April, for example. I prefer to use the thin quill of a feather as a plectrum, as I saw done on the R. lute once. For as thin and short as the strings are, it helps to have something equally tiny to set the string in motion. And of course, the Chancy MS is to be done with a plectrum as far as I know. But I have to say, your playing had me fooled... It sounds like a mandore to me! And they are lovely tunes. cud __ From: Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalistvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 6:19:40 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Thanks Chris I should have said I'm not playing these pieces on a mandore, but on a small, single-strung instrument, tuned like a mandore. My instrument has a string length of 37cms and so is larger (and, no doubt, easier to play) than a typical four-course, four-string mandore. On the other hand, maybe there was a difference in size between the four-course (four-string) plectrum-played mandore and the five-course, fingerstyle (or plectrum+fingers style) instrument. I knew about the Ulm tablatures from Donald Gill and James Tyler but it was Jean-Marie Poirier who pointed me in the direction of the Cornetto catalogue. [1]http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm I think there are three separate tabaltures in the Ulm collection and the Cornetto facsimiles are quite expensive. At Jean-Marie's suggestion I got Cornetto catalogue, 0073 which turned out to be two nicely-produced facsimiles. The main 'book' (there's probably a technical name for a publication roughly 8 inches by 6 inches) has music for a five course instrument and uses a couple of tunings but mainly one (in fourths and fifths, without lowering the first course). Like the Skene MS, it has to be fingerstyle or plectrum plus fingers. The supplementary 'book' has only a few pieces, all or mainly from the larger collection, but now set for a four-course instrument, presumably to be played with a plectrum. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
On 12/01/2011 16:35, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to learning more about it. JN Jean-Marie Poirier has a site devoted to the instrument. http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html It's French, of course but there is a pdf of an article by the late James Tyler from Early Music. Donald Gill and James Tyler have both tried to promote the mandore (and the mandolino) and have both written about them. Supposing a tuning with top d (it might be g - or something else) then a four-course tuning would be g-d-g-d (or g-d-g'-d' or maybe I mean d'', but you get the point!). And a five course instrument would be d-g-d-g-d. But on both four and five-course instruments the top course could be lowered to c, b flat etc. Also the Skene MS has a section of pieces in lute tuning. Stuart On 1/11/2011 2:34 PM, Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn Thanks! I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123 pieces for five-course mandore (fingerstyle or mixed plectrum and fingers) and a small number for four-course mandore (probably plectrum). So the Skene and the Ulm collections make up several hundred pieces - approaching the size of the repertoire for the four-course guitar. And then there are the Chancy pieces and some other things. Of course the four-course guitar's repertoire is more varied: songs, abstract pieces, chanson settings as well as dances etc and the mandore repertoire seems to be mainly dances and ballad tunes. Very nice though. Stuart On 1/10/2011 7:04 AM, Chris Despopoulosdespopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks... My instrument is 30 cm, and actually 5-course, single strung. I presume it's made according to historical understanding... I believe Carlos Gonzales is a historian as well as builder -- he's planning a workshop on building ancient Egyptian/Coptic lutes this April, for example. I prefer to use the thin quill of a feather as a plectrum, as I saw done on the R. lute once. For as thin and short as the strings are, it helps to have something equally tiny to set the string in motion. And of course, the Chancy MS is to be done with a plectrum as far as I know. But I have to say, your playing had me fooled... It sounds like a mandore to me! And they are lovely tunes. cud __ From: Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalistvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 6:19:40 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Thanks Chris I should have said I'm not playing these pieces on a mandore, but on a small, single-strung instrument, tuned like a mandore. My instrument has a string length of 37cms and so is larger (and, no doubt, easier to play) than a typical four-course, four-string mandore. On the other hand, maybe there was a difference in size between the four-course (four-string) plectrum-played mandore and the five-course, fingerstyle (or plectrum+fingers style) instrument. I knew about the Ulm tablatures from Donald Gill and James Tyler but it was Jean-Marie Poirier who pointed me in the direction of the Cornetto catalogue. [1]http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm I think there are three separate tabaltures in the Ulm collection and the Cornetto facsimiles are quite expensive. At Jean-Marie's suggestion I got Cornetto catalogue, 0073 which turned out to be two nicely-produced facsimiles. The main 'book' (there's probably a technical name for a publication roughly 8 inches by 6 inches) has music for a five course instrument and uses a couple of tunings but mainly one (in fourths and fifths, without lowering the first course). Like the Skene MS, it has to be fingerstyle or plectrum plus fingers. The supplementary 'book' has only a few pieces, all or mainly from the larger collection, but now set for a four-course instrument, presumably to be played with a plectrum. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
Always one to toot my own horn (or pluck my own strings, as it were), I have posted some recordings on my personal site at: [1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Two tracks are some old recordings I did on the mandore, and three others are on the baroque guitar... I keep meaning to do better, but where's the time? Anyway, the mandore recordings are of Chancy's Suite #5, and 3 of his series of 6 branles. The tablatures are for a 4-string instrument, and as I understand it, to be played with a plectrum. At least that's what I was taught by Didier Le Roux and other members of l'Ensemble Gabriel Leone (I was *very* fortunate to attend a class that reviewed the mandolin. I never made it past the mandore.) In spite of being played with a plectrum, the Chancy music is full of hidden polyphony. For the miniature qualities it has on the surface, I believe the music is vast in scope... if only I could reveal a fraction of its depth and breadth I'd be happy. Anyway, for your enjoyment... Vive le mandore! cheers cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 11:52:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces On 12/01/2011 16:35, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to learning more about it. JN Jean-Marie Poirier has a site devoted to the instrument. [2]http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html It's French, of course but there is a pdf of an article by the late James Tyler from Early Music. Donald Gill and James Tyler have both tried to promote the mandore (and the mandolino) and have both written about them. Supposing a tuning with top d (it might be g - or something else) then a four-course tuning would be g-d-g-d (or g-d-g'-d' or maybe I mean d'', but you get the point!). And a five course instrument would be d-g-d-g-d. But on both four and five-course instruments the top course could be lowered to c, b flat etc. Also the Skene MS has a section of pieces in lute tuning. Stuart On 1/11/2011 2:34 PM, Stuart Walsh[3]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn Thanks! I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123 pieces for five-course mandore (fingerstyle or mixed plectrum and fingers) and a small number for four-course mandore (probably plectrum). So the Skene and the Ulm collections make up several hundred pieces - approaching the size of the repertoire for the four-course guitar. And then there are the Chancy pieces and some other things. Of course the four-course guitar's repertoire is more varied: songs, abstract pieces, chanson settings as well as dances etc and the mandore repertoire seems to be mainly dances and ballad tunes. Very nice though. Stuart On 1/10/2011 7:04 AM, Chris Despopoulos[4]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks... My instrument is 30 cm, and actually 5-course, single strung. I presume it's made according to historical understanding... I believe Carlos Gonzales is a historian as well as builder -- he's planning a workshop on building ancient Egyptian/Coptic lutes this April, for example. I prefer to use the thin quill of a feather as a plectrum, as I saw done on the R. lute once. For as thin and short as the strings are, it helps to have something equally tiny to set the string in motion. And of course, the Chancy MS is to be done with a plectrum as far as I know. But I have to say, your playing had me fooled... It sounds like a mandore to me! And they are lovely tunes. cud __ From: Stuart Walsh[5]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist[6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 6:19:40 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Thanks Chris I should have said I'm not playing these pieces on a mandore, but on a small, single-strung instrument, tuned like a mandore. My instrument has a string length of 37cms and so is larger (and, no doubt, easier to play) than a typical four-course, four-string mandore. On the other hand, maybe there was a difference
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
On 12/01/2011 17:39, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Always one to toot my own horn (or pluck my own strings, as it were), I have posted some recordings on my personal site at: [1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Very nice Chris. Chancy's music is a lot more sophisticated or more 'modern' than Skene or the Ulm mandore MS (well 133a and b). I do like the Branle de Bocan. It's in Ulm 133b as a five course fingerstyle (or prectrum +fingers) piece. (Maybe the other two Branles are in there, somewhere too). What strings do you have on your Baroque guitar. The instrument (it's fully re-entrant, isn't it?) sounds very resonant. I was bit surprised by the opening of the Jacaras? And the Sarabanda sounds very familiar but is it really a sarabanda and in Sanz? Stuart Two tracks are some old recordings I did on the mandore, and three others are on the baroque guitar... I keep meaning to do better, but where's the time? Anyway, the mandore recordings are of Chancy's Suite #5, and 3 of his series of 6 branles. The tablatures are for a 4-string instrument, and as I understand it, to be played with a plectrum. At least that's what I was taught by Didier Le Roux and other members of l'Ensemble Gabriel Leone (I was *very* fortunate to attend a class that reviewed the mandolin. I never made it past the mandore.) In spite of being played with a plectrum, the Chancy music is full of hidden polyphony. For the miniature qualities it has on the surface, I believe the music is vast in scope... if only I could reveal a fraction of its depth and breadth I'd be happy. Anyway, for your enjoyment... Vive le mandore! cheers cud __ From: Stuart Walsh [2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Nelson, Jocelyn [3]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Chris Despopoulos [5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 11:52:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces On 12/01/2011 16:35, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to learning more about it. JN Jean-Marie Poirier has a site devoted to the instrument. [6]http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html It's French, of course but there is a pdf of an article by the late James Tyler from Early Music. Donald Gill and James Tyler have both tried to promote the mandore (and the mandolino) and have both written about them. Supposing a tuning with top d (it might be g - or something else) then a four-course tuning would be g-d-g-d (or g-d-g'-d' or maybe I mean d'', but you get the point!). And a five course instrument would be d-g-d-g-d. But on both four and five-course instruments the top course could be lowered to c, b flat etc. Also the Skene MS has a section of pieces in lute tuning. Stuart On 1/11/2011 2:34 PM, Stuart Walsh[7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn Thanks! I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123 pieces for five-course mandore (fingerstyle or mixed plectrum and fingers) and a small number for four-course mandore (probably plectrum). So the Skene and the Ulm collections make up several hundred pieces - approaching the size of the repertoire for the four-course guitar. And then there are the Chancy pieces and some other things. Of course the four-course guitar's repertoire is more varied: songs, abstract pieces, chanson settings as well as dances etc and the mandore repertoire seems to be mainly dances and ballad tunes. Very nice though. Stuart On 1/10/2011 7:04 AM, Chris Despopoulos[8]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks... My instrument is 30 cm, and actually 5-course, single strung. I presume it's made according to historical understanding... I believe Carlos Gonzales is a historian as well as builder -- he's planning a workshop on building ancient Egyptian/Coptic lutes this April, for example. I prefer to use the thin quill of a feather as a plectrum, as I saw done on the R. lute once. For as thin and short as the strings are, it helps to have something equally tiny to set the string in motion. And of course, the Chancy MS is to be done with a plectrum as far as I know. But I have to say, your playing had me fooled... It sounds like a mandore to me! And they are lovely tunes. cud
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
It would be interesting to see the ULM version of the Branle de Bocan. The Chancy series of branles begins with the title Branles de Boccan, and the second one in the set is titled (fittingly enough) Second. So I think of it as a variation on the first. After that comes Branle Gay, Branle de Poictou, then Branle Double de Poictou, then finally Branle de Montirande -- a most beautiful thing if you ask me. He finishes the set off with La Gavotte. For my guitar I just use rectified nylon -- Saverez, I think (the envelopes are hidden away at the moment.) What I called a Sarabanda I should perhaps properly refer to as a Zarabanda. It's on the second page of tablature in his Tomo 2. I know modern guitar players played it much more slowly, but I took my inspiration from Javier La Torre (if I dare say so), who plays it much more spritely. And yes, I'm stuck on fully re-entrant tuning at the moment. It fascinates me. cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Nelson, Jocelyn nels...@ecu.edu; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 4:35:23 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces On 12/01/2011 17:39, Chris Despopoulos wrote: Always one to toot my own horn (or pluck my own strings, as it were), I have posted some recordings on my personal site at: [1][1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/ Very nice Chris. Chancy's music is a lot more sophisticated or more 'modern' than Skene or the Ulm mandore MS (well 133a and b). I do like the Branle de Bocan. It's in Ulm 133b as a five course fingerstyle (or prectrum +fingers) piece. (Maybe the other two Branles are in there, somewhere too). What strings do you have on your Baroque guitar. The instrument (it's fully re-entrant, isn't it?) sounds very resonant. I was bit surprised by the opening of the Jacaras? And the Sarabanda sounds very familiar but is it really a sarabanda and in Sanz? Stuart Two tracks are some old recordings I did on the mandore, and three others are on the baroque guitar... I keep meaning to do better, but where's the time? Anyway, the mandore recordings are of Chancy's Suite #5, and 3 of his series of 6 branles. The tablatures are for a 4-string instrument, and as I understand it, to be played with a plectrum. At least that's what I was taught by Didier Le Roux and other members of l'Ensemble Gabriel Leone (I was *very* fortunate to attend a class that reviewed the mandolin. I never made it past the mandore.) In spite of being played with a plectrum, the Chancy music is full of hidden polyphony. For the miniature qualities it has on the surface, I believe the music is vast in scope... if only I could reveal a fraction of its depth and breadth I'd be happy. Anyway, for your enjoyment... Vive le mandore! cheers cud __ From: Stuart Walsh [2][2]s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Nelson, Jocelyn [3][3]nels...@ecu.edu Cc: Vihuelalist [4][4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Chris Despopoulos [5][5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 11:52:10 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces On 12/01/2011 16:35, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: Certainly nothing wrong with dances and ballad tunes, as you demonstrate. Is the tuning similar to the 4-course? I'm not familiar with mandore literature, and now I'm looking forward to learning more about it. JN Jean-Marie Poirier has a site devoted to the instrument. [6][6]http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html It's French, of course but there is a pdf of an article by the late James Tyler from Early Music. Donald Gill and James Tyler have both tried to promote the mandore (and the mandolino) and have both written about them. Supposing a tuning with top d (it might be g - or something else) then a four-course tuning would be g-d-g-d (or g-d-g'-d' or maybe I mean d'', but you get the point!). And a five course instrument would be d-g-d-g-d. But on both four and five-course instruments the top course could be lowered to c, b flat etc. Also the Skene MS has a section of pieces in lute tuning. Stuart On 1/11/2011 2:34 PM, Stuart Walsh[7][7]s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn Thanks! I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
On 11/01/2011 01:48, Nelson, Jocelyn wrote: I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn Thanks! I have only one section of the Ulm collection and in that there are 123 pieces for five-course mandore (fingerstyle or mixed plectrum and fingers) and a small number for four-course mandore (probably plectrum). So the Skene and the Ulm collections make up several hundred pieces - approaching the size of the repertoire for the four-course guitar. And then there are the Chancy pieces and some other things. Of course the four-course guitar's repertoire is more varied: songs, abstract pieces, chanson settings as well as dances etc and the mandore repertoire seems to be mainly dances and ballad tunes. Very nice though. Stuart On 1/10/2011 7:04 AM, Chris Despopoulosdespopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks... My instrument is 30 cm, and actually 5-course, single strung. I presume it's made according to historical understanding... I believe Carlos Gonzales is a historian as well as builder -- he's planning a workshop on building ancient Egyptian/Coptic lutes this April, for example. I prefer to use the thin quill of a feather as a plectrum, as I saw done on the R. lute once. For as thin and short as the strings are, it helps to have something equally tiny to set the string in motion. And of course, the Chancy MS is to be done with a plectrum as far as I know. But I have to say, your playing had me fooled... It sounds like a mandore to me! And they are lovely tunes. cud __ From: Stuart Walshs.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalistvihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 6:19:40 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Thanks Chris I should have said I'm not playing these pieces on a mandore, but on a small, single-strung instrument, tuned like a mandore. My instrument has a string length of 37cms and so is larger (and, no doubt, easier to play) than a typical four-course, four-string mandore. On the other hand, maybe there was a difference in size between the four-course (four-string) plectrum-played mandore and the five-course, fingerstyle (or plectrum+fingers style) instrument. I knew about the Ulm tablatures from Donald Gill and James Tyler but it was Jean-Marie Poirier who pointed me in the direction of the Cornetto catalogue. [1]http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm I think there are three separate tabaltures in the Ulm collection and the Cornetto facsimiles are quite expensive. At Jean-Marie's suggestion I got Cornetto catalogue, 0073 which turned out to be two nicely-produced facsimiles. The main 'book' (there's probably a technical name for a publication roughly 8 inches by 6 inches) has music for a five course instrument and uses a couple of tunings but mainly one (in fourths and fifths, without lowering the first course). Like the Skene MS, it has to be fingerstyle or plectrum plus fingers. The supplementary 'book' has only a few pieces, all or mainly from the larger collection, but now set for a four-course instrument, presumably to be played with a plectrum. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
Thanks Chris I should have said I'm not playing these pieces on a mandore, but on a small, single-strung instrument, tuned like a mandore. My instrument has a string length of 37cms and so is larger (and, no doubt, easier to play) than a typical four-course, four-string mandore. On the other hand, maybe there was a difference in size between the four-course (four-string) plectrum-played mandore and the five-course, fingerstyle (or plectrum+fingers style) instrument. I knew about the Ulm tablatures from Donald Gill and James Tyler but it was Jean-Marie Poirier who pointed me in the direction of the Cornetto catalogue. http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm I think there are three separate tabaltures in the Ulm collection and the Cornetto facsimiles are quite expensive. At Jean-Marie's suggestion I got Cornetto catalogue, 0073 which turned out to be two nicely-produced facsimiles. The main 'book' (there's probably a technical name for a publication roughly 8 inches by 6 inches) has music for a five course instrument and uses a couple of tunings but mainly one (in fourths and fifths, without lowering the first course). Like the Skene MS, it has to be fingerstyle or plectrum plus fingers. The supplementary 'book' has only a few pieces, all or mainly from the larger collection, but now set for a four-course instrument, presumably to be played with a plectrum. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
Thanks... My instrument is 30 cm, and actually 5-course, single strung. I presume it's made according to historical understanding... I believe Carlos Gonzales is a historian as well as builder -- he's planning a workshop on building ancient Egyptian/Coptic lutes this April, for example. I prefer to use the thin quill of a feather as a plectrum, as I saw done on the R. lute once. For as thin and short as the strings are, it helps to have something equally tiny to set the string in motion. And of course, the Chancy MS is to be done with a plectrum as far as I know. But I have to say, your playing had me fooled... It sounds like a mandore to me! And they are lovely tunes. cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 6:19:40 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Thanks Chris I should have said I'm not playing these pieces on a mandore, but on a small, single-strung instrument, tuned like a mandore. My instrument has a string length of 37cms and so is larger (and, no doubt, easier to play) than a typical four-course, four-string mandore. On the other hand, maybe there was a difference in size between the four-course (four-string) plectrum-played mandore and the five-course, fingerstyle (or plectrum+fingers style) instrument. I knew about the Ulm tablatures from Donald Gill and James Tyler but it was Jean-Marie Poirier who pointed me in the direction of the Cornetto catalogue. [1]http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm I think there are three separate tabaltures in the Ulm collection and the Cornetto facsimiles are quite expensive. At Jean-Marie's suggestion I got Cornetto catalogue, 0073 which turned out to be two nicely-produced facsimiles. The main 'book' (there's probably a technical name for a publication roughly 8 inches by 6 inches) has music for a five course instrument and uses a couple of tunings but mainly one (in fourths and fifths, without lowering the first course). Like the Skene MS, it has to be fingerstyle or plectrum plus fingers. The supplementary 'book' has only a few pieces, all or mainly from the larger collection, but now set for a four-course instrument, presumably to be played with a plectrum. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces
I really enjoyed this, Stuart. Thanks for posting! Best, Jocelyn On 1/10/2011 7:04 AM, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks... My instrument is 30 cm, and actually 5-course, single strung. I presume it's made according to historical understanding... I believe Carlos Gonzales is a historian as well as builder -- he's planning a workshop on building ancient Egyptian/Coptic lutes this April, for example. I prefer to use the thin quill of a feather as a plectrum, as I saw done on the R. lute once. For as thin and short as the strings are, it helps to have something equally tiny to set the string in motion. And of course, the Chancy MS is to be done with a plectrum as far as I know. But I have to say, your playing had me fooled... It sounds like a mandore to me! And they are lovely tunes. cud __ From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 6:19:40 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: some Ulm mandore pieces Thanks Chris I should have said I'm not playing these pieces on a mandore, but on a small, single-strung instrument, tuned like a mandore. My instrument has a string length of 37cms and so is larger (and, no doubt, easier to play) than a typical four-course, four-string mandore. On the other hand, maybe there was a difference in size between the four-course (four-string) plectrum-played mandore and the five-course, fingerstyle (or plectrum+fingers style) instrument. I knew about the Ulm tablatures from Donald Gill and James Tyler but it was Jean-Marie Poirier who pointed me in the direction of the Cornetto catalogue. [1]http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm I think there are three separate tabaltures in the Ulm collection and the Cornetto facsimiles are quite expensive. At Jean-Marie's suggestion I got Cornetto catalogue, 0073 which turned out to be two nicely-produced facsimiles. The main 'book' (there's probably a technical name for a publication roughly 8 inches by 6 inches) has music for a five course instrument and uses a couple of tunings but mainly one (in fourths and fifths, without lowering the first course). Like the Skene MS, it has to be fingerstyle or plectrum plus fingers. The supplementary 'book' has only a few pieces, all or mainly from the larger collection, but now set for a four-course instrument, presumably to be played with a plectrum. Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.faksimiles.org/verlag.htm 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
